With the recent events still in mind, I've begun to wonder, perhaps we as a community need to create some sort of document or system wherein we understand the rights and powers afforded to the various members here.
Thoughts?
Take care all.
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With the recent events still in mind, I've begun to wonder, perhaps we as a community need to create some sort of document or system wherein we understand the rights and powers afforded to the various members here.
Thoughts?
Take care all.
Well, there is a set of rules in the FAQ, although I suppose certain rules could do with some revision due to the aforementioned recent events.
While I think the idea of a Constitution is a nice one, what exactly would you put in it besides the rules linked to above?
With the obvious backlash from the "incident", there seemed to be quite a gap between what some of the Staff believed and what many others believed is the way to run the board, as in, if some people are granted immunity from some things and their rights are protected more easily. After reading what Snizz had written in that thread, I began to wonder, if we really want to make changes, we should make them in a clear cut fashion, so that there is no misunderstanding about how choices are made and the like.
Take care all.
The idea of a constitution sounds too american for me :monster:
Consider it more a Treaty then, something to fix the rift that has happened, or at least begin to address ways to go about fixing it.
Take care all.
Boo Yanks :monster:
Edit: If I refuse to sign it can I post porn?
Edit2: Ok, sorry, sounds like a good idea but finding something EVERYONE can agree on.......impossible.
At another message board, yeah :p
There's entirely too much forum drama going around here for my taste. It's very mind boggling, and the story keeps getting new twists and turns.
This is my first real taste of drama here on EoFF, and I can't say it's that thrilling. Maybe a clarification of the rules is indeed in order.
This forum is really growing on me, and I wanna be a part of it. But times like these - I just don't get it.
Oh I see, if you don't agree you can't post.....isn't that the terms and conditions is for?Quote:
Originally Posted by cl_out
Essentially, I figure it can be a way to have a meeting of the minds between everyone, well everyone willing to participate. Of course, unless it also includes the Staff, having it would be moot.
Take care all.
Hopefully it will wind up more like the Vienna council instead of the Versailles council.
Every single MEDC (More Economically Developed Country - thank you Political Correctness and Year 10 Geography lessons) has a constitution, clout. Even Britain, although that one is special because it is uncodified, but it still exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by cl_out
A constitution basically describes the powers, limits and the relationships between the main arms of government, (Executive, Legislature and Judiciary), although it seems to me that all three arms of "government" at EoFF are the same thing: The forums staff. So if a EoFF Constitution was to exist, it would therefore have to define the staff's powers over the regular members, which seem to me to be infinite as far as the forums go - currently they can theoretically do anything they want. If you wanted a Constitution then you would actually have to define and decide upon giving them definite powers.
I could propose a number of constitutional reforms for EoFF, such as the separation of powers between the three arms of "government" and elected staff, but I really think those are unnecessary changes and everyone will just say "It's only the internet" (Don't blame me for such craziness, I'm a Politics student who pays attention in class :p)
It's all in the planning. If the planning is flawed, anything that comes afterward will be flawed as well.
Take care all.
Anyone up for a storming of the Bastille, to rescue HOOTERS, Sugpo, PeTeRL90, and HOORJ?
Then lets play tennis. :monster:
I'd say one thing at a time my friend. First we need to really, really take a long look to see if there is enough support behind this process.
Take care all.
I have been waiting for this implosion for a while. It finally happened...its like a dream come true ;_;
Seriously though. We all know I have been a person who has spoken against the staff constantly becaues I disagree with them.
Sephex pointed out to me that I spelled because wrong and I said smurf it! He also pointed out I needed a comma somewhere and I said smurf it.
Moving along, a constituion is a dumb idea. I don't think the spam forum would be able...I mean, I don't think the feedback forum would be able to decide upon anything.
This has been such a happy post day for me. Nothing makes sense...it would if I was piss drunk. That is the case so yeah :erm:
I remember the time that I wanted to get a thread closed in the FFVII forum so I posted stuff about reviving Aeris and then reported it to Kawaii...the thread was closed and all was right in the world!
Ed, you spelled Elric wrong in your sig.
Edit: Captain I sincerly think this wont work so I will leave anyway ;) I get the hint.
Best of luck.
I think, that if enough people do want to force a change or make a reform, then the sincere ideas and replies would outweigh the spam.
Take care all.
Well since I'm banned, this makes no difference to me. :monster:
And why not? We won't discriminate, even against second accounts!
Take care all.
Actually, we do, since under normal circumstances, second accounts get banned :p
Though I would say, this isn't a normal circumstance.
Even if this is a hopeless cause, I'll still do what I can.
Take care all.
*cough*Award Guy*cough*Election Booth*cough*Quote:
Originally Posted by cl_out
The Constitution as I see fit.
1) No one is created equal. People will be ranked by their accomplishments on the site...accomplishments don't have to be positive accomplishments either.
2) Swearing is illegal. However vulgar langaue is A-Okay. Not only is it okay but it is encouraged. Be creative.
3) Porn is banned...but hentai is a-o-KAY.
4) Trick someone into getting banned with in 8 months or you are banned.
5) Feedback is the offical spam forum.
I HAVE SPOKEN!
It has nothing to do with Flaws in the system. The EoFF System is pretty perfect. But alas, the people are flawed. Whether there is a constitution or not, People will still break it and get away with it if the admins chose it.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Captain
It's as simple as this: We can't have any rules. We just have to hope we dont get the admins or Ck's angry.
Too late :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Siric
"It has nothing to do with Flaws in the system. The EoFF System is pretty perfect. But alas, the people are flawed. Whether there is a constitution or not, People will still break it and get away with it if the admins chose it.
It's as simple as this: We can't have any rules. We just have to hope we dont get the admins or Ck's angry."
Just in passing, wouldn't the fact that we have to essentially hope not to get people angry be a great flaw in the system?
Take care all.
Yea, there aren't any other active seconds acounts besides those two. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Agent Proto
Only because the people are flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Captain
I simply cannot allow the Proletariate equal opportunity within our community. What sort of land-holding lord would I be then? Our nature is power and we defend it to the death.
Did Dragonflame recommend a communist revolution some time ago?
EDIT: Heh. Fun times. I wonder what happened to him.
Skimming through the topic regarding the incident again, there were a couple of interesting ideas that I think were worth noting, ideas that both Nik and Proto posted. Perhaps they warrant some serious discussion?
Take care all.
This thread is not about nik, and posts about him in this thread will be considered spam.
And that would result in getting banned?
Regardless of what ideas have been proposed, they will not be discussed simply because they will disrupt the order of things around here. I took the time to post my thoughts and solutions, and it was completely ignored. Why should I further continue to try to help people who do not even care? Del Snizz made a beautiful statement about the order of things in this world, including this board, and it will be ignored, simply because the more incendiary an idea is, the more likely it can and will be deleted by those in power simply so they may mantain power and order. Where's my post? Oh, that's right, it's spam. Why is it spam? Because even if I actually said anything worth noting (as I have done around here in the past), the result will be the same. Why not just spam all the time? It doesn't matter - no one listens anyways. And now you have the basis behind most of the problems that happen around here - no one is listening.
What the hell are you talking about?
I response to The Captain's original post, it's an excellent idea in theory, but whether a sensible and sound set of terms could be agreed isn't so clear cut. Who would be responsible for the creation of this new constitution? If every member were to have their say then we'd end up with a constitution full of unecessary, senseless rubbish. If the job were left to a select few then it's unlikely anything would change at all, and the document would not be taken seriously by the majority of members.
So although a properly drafted set of terms would probably have great benefits for EoFF, the difficulty of actually creating it might be the idea's undoing.
I know of one member who has four accounts, 2 of those are banned but 2 (as far as I know) are still active.Quote:
Originally Posted by eestlinc
"Who would be responsible for the creation of this new constitution? If every member were to have their say then we'd end up with a constitution full of unecessary, senseless rubbish. If the job were left to a select few then it's unlikely anything would change at all, and the document would not be taken seriously by the majority of members."
If the idea does have any backing, perhaps make up a committee of members, both on Staff and off Staff who are well respected and have the support of the board. That way, in effect, the voices of the majority and those who might want to make changes can be heard within reason.
Take care all, and thanks for the feedback thus far.
Who Will Police The Police!!!!!1111
The community, ideally.
If need be, I can write up a draft of what the Constitution might look like later on tonight after I get home from work, just to get the ball rolling a bit.
Take care all.
Make sure you post here in the Feedback forum!
I agree with this completely. No matter what anyone else might say about it, or me, I do value this place a lot. I have fun while I'm on here, and I believe other people do as well. I want that to continue; if this Constitution is going to help that along, I'm behind it 100%. Yeah, sure, at this point it might not be entirely plausible, but we'll never know until we try it out. I know I'll do my best to follow these rules that we might set up, for all our sakes. We need a change, I think, and this might be the answer.
:D
That's the plan good sir.
Take care all.
Sorry, I've been under the weather and haven't been paying much attention to what's going on. I hope this place isn't crashing(bunchofnumbers) down around me.
Don't speak badly of that guy, he's your boss now. He owns you. You work for him. He's the big cheese. The head honcho. The top dog. OK bored now. :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
I doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
Me too :| Let's go crash(#) General Chat!Quote:
Originally Posted by Poo
"We the People of EoFF, in Order to form a more perfect community, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for EoFF."
Take care all.
Is that it?
COPYRIGHT THEIF! You just replaced US With EoFF....
Not that there is anything wrong with it.
Actually, that's just the proposed intro, one of many I'm mulling over. I have also thought about using the most recent English and Australian Constitutions, but in studying this, the US Constitution is easily the most modern and flexible of the bunch in that it allows for the most scrutiny of rules while also having a set structure. Being able to update a set of laws IS important, in my opinion.
Take care all.
I was juss joshin ya anywho...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Captain
EDIT: \/\/3 7|-|3 p30pl3 0f 30FF, ||\| 0rd3r 70 f0r|\/| a |\/|0r3 P3rf3(7 F0ru|\/|....
Well. It's a good start. =) *poke*
:D
Submitted Article On Porn Policy:
Three Levels Used To Judge Whether Offense Is Ban-Worthy:
1. What the nature of the post is, as in, was the post made just to present the picture, and if so in what context: IE if just the picture is posted, more often than not, it is being posted just to provoke, whereas, if there is commentary that follows it, moreso looking at how the picture was created (the artistic integrity of the work), then it may be more reasonable not to ban.
2. What the picture is of. This is the tricky part to judge, as some people may find things to be more offensive than others. In doing this, perhaps we may need to have a general consensus or a two day voting period on what the members and Staff believe is within reason or not. Once the majority has spoken, that can be the new standard.
3. To A Lesser Extent Then It Is Now: Who the Member is. If the person who posts something offensive, it must be taken into consideration who they are in so much as, what is their background:
- Have they caused trouble in the past?
- Have they been warned in the past about instances like these?
And the most important piece:
Staff and veteran members MUST be held to higher scrutiny because as people who have been here longer, we all now have certain responsibilities to BE responsible, as in, we should have much LESS leeway because we are the role models for the board.
Take care all.
First of all, an EoFF Constitution will not work.
Why? First and foremost, the staff is the law, and above all. You may not agree with some of what they do, but we should deal with it. If there's something you don't like, you can PM a staff member and tell them, or start a thread here in feedback.
Though, I think that under the law of EoFF, everyone should be equal, and have equal punishment. However, the staff have superiority over other members, and are unlikely to ban someone who have some "importance" to EoFF in their perspective...
I don't know where I'm going with this... so use whatever I said for your own good.
I think it would be best if, after a vague draft has been made, we have the Master of Rhetoric Del Snizz write us up a long and tedious copy, as I've never seen a more professional writer in my sixteen years.
Looks good so far. Hopefully, [Staff Members] will follow it and, you know, tottaly disregard it like the Instaban.
EDIT:Even though I hate it with an eighth of my heart, it's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Proto
Thats exactly what I meant to say earlier. But unfortently, all my posts look drunk :)
I see your point Proto and siric so mine is thus:
If laws exist to be enforced, but the laws can be bent or even broken, by those who would enforce them, then the laws themselves have no purpose. If there is no law, then there can be no justice, no justice, then no integrity, and no integrity, then no community.
Take care all.
So essentially there needs to be some way in which the staff need to be held accountable, which is usually done through the Feedback forum although more often than not people claim that these threads are whining or pointless.
See, in the real world, those who enforce laws often break the laws themselves, and they do get punished the same way as everyone else. The same should be true about the staff and its members (besides Cid, of course)
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Captain
And we can't stop the laws from being broken. Why? Because were are ants, and the [Staff Members] Is a(are) cruel boy(s) with a magnifying glass(es)
Then the options are to either force change through constant petition, or perhaps something more drastic such as a mass exodus.
As Snizz said earlier, without people there is no community and I too would like to consider this a community of friends and friends do in fact trust one another, work things out together and create the chance for compromise so that all can benefit.
Take care all.
Long live the Bolsheviks!
Constant petition simply doesn't work for major things. I will take the example of PeTeRL90, as it is the most famous. So many members of the community made it quite clear that they felt the decision was completely and totally wrong, but they were ignored. So therefore "something more drastic" would be the ultimate way of causing any change, although I'm not sure what exactly that would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Captain
Though to clarfiy, I'm hoping for something closer to a Democracy than the ideal Marxist state.
Take care all.
Democracies on individual issues would be too slow to get things done in the case of forums. How long should we wait on making decisions? 6 hours? 24 hours? (We actually use 24 hours on some things in Staff already.) 48 hours? 100 hours on weekends just in case some people don't get a chance to see something? What happens if something extreme but not previously considered happens, do we just sit and wait that silly long amount of time and let crap happen? :D
I say go for the constant petitioning. Easier to sit back and ignore stuff for me :monster: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie:
As a former staff, cl_out speaks the truth.
You could always temporarily ban the member in question while the decision is made. That would stop the offence being repeated for the time being, without causing the same level of public outrage as an instant, permanent ban.
Well, Kishi was temporarily banned, and now he's back, so you're saying we did the right thing. Thanks :D
I wanna dress up like Thomas Jefferson. :(
There's no need to twist my words. I already agree that you guys did the right thing by unbanning Kishi. :DQuote:
Well, Kishi was temporarily banned, and now he's back, so you're saying we did the right thing. Thanks :D
I'm simply suggesting that in future these situations are handled a little more carefully, to avoid another outcry like the one we've just seen. The reason everybody got so worked up about this incident is that a ban is supposed to be irreversible. If temporary bans were more common then it wouldn't have been a problem at all.
Ah-ha, so a decision HAS been made! *points finger*Quote:
Originally Posted by cl_out
I was speaking as if the situation at the time of my post wasn't going to change :p If you want to be that picky, a decision was made when he was banned, then that decision got overruled by another decision when he got unbanned, and so on and so forth each time it got changed :p Maybe we've calmed down in that respect, but who said it won't change again? :p
Anyone notice that post 20 is by a banned member and the captain even replied to it. How do banned members still post??
That's cl_out second account. xD
Oh...
how come clout gets a second account?? I want one!
You can't have one.
FREE REPO MAN!Quote:
Originally Posted by eestlinc
Among others.
I think we need to hold EoFF elections. And those people run EoFF. Thad be great.
If there's one thing I've learned in my years at EoFF, it's that the more rules you show people, the more ways they'll find to get around them. The current rules we have at EoFF are perfect - think of an admin/CK like a Judge in Judge Dredd. A CK/Admin is the judge, the jury and the executioner. We make the laws, we decide what is right and what is wrong. To have specific laws is just asking for trouble. I speak from experience.
Also, EoFF is not a democracy and it never will be as far as I'm concerned. It's a dictatorship and it's a hell of a lot better that way. Dictatorship isn't always a bad thing, you know.
especially snow-dictatorships
I haven't seen Judge Dredd :{
Demolition Man is better.
If you mean directly elected EoFF staff, bad, BAD idea. It would mean that Staff would have to try to do things to make them popular with the members - so this means they couldn't tell any of them off or punish them without fear of being voted out. Plus some of the people who might be elected could potentially be untrustworthy - Cid (or whoever does it, BoB usually claims full responsibility for ever CK ever appointed) only appoints those who he knows are sure not to abuse their power or trash the database or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siric
Although on the plus side it would be my best chance of being a CK, which, as I'm sure you'll all agree, would be totally awesome. :p
<33333333333333333333333Quote:
Originally Posted by eestlinc
God I love that movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
At least this way you only have to be popular with one person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
Yeah, everyone knows how much BoB loves me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
In the beginning, the person to "suck up to" or impress was Cid. That's how I became CK. :D
You'd never become a CK because I hate you... a lot.
EDIT: Yeah, you too pr00t.
I think it's pretty obvious from recent events that BoB runs this show.
...I thought we had something special! You said you loved me! Was it all just a lie?! Were you just using me for the sex?! So anyway, weather's pretty good today, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaneko
No, and yes.
[q]BoB usually claims full responsibility for ever CK ever appointed[/q]
Damned straight. I think only one of the Knights to come along since I joined wasn't the ones I was originally going for. And even the one that I can think of was second to a person that eventually became staff anyway... mwahahaha. :D
However, I'm not too much of a fan of sucking up, but nominate/vote for me for Best Avatar during the Ciddies and you'll probably earn yourself a lot of browny points. Of course, I don't think anyone but me voted for my avatar last time. :cry:
I was a damn good mod when I was still in staff. ;)
Who's talking about the abilities of mods?Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Proto
No one was. But of course, sucking up to an admin to get knighted is one of the surest ways that you probably won't be considered.
How does one go about getting adminned?
Ha. It's sad. The only admin I trust is cl_out. WTF?
You closed MAPS. :mad2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Proto
But seriously, pick Proto to be a mod! Why? Oh...no reason....yeah...it's not like I drew him in the annual BAoTW "Who will be a CK?" sweepstakes or anything. :shifty:
RSL: Ask. I think you have the same rights as Unne.
clout is sneaky.
...Quote:
Originally Posted by Siric
Look what clout did to me. He changed me from Killer to Kutey and screwed up the font in bunni. And refuses to fix it.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by KuteyＢｕｎｎi
At least you're still KB :p
I suppose.
That's what you get for picking a stupid name.
He didn't pick it :mad2:
That just makes it worse.
While I was at work, I did a lot of thinking and came to the conclusion that having a Constitution, or at least, an actual set of rules would be beneficial to all here, even the Staff.
For the non-staff, it would allow us to know exactly where we stand and not be in the dark on decisions. If something comes up, we can understand the rule in place, understand why the rule was made, how the rule was made and accept the rule.
For Staff, it gives you added power in that you can carry out the rules and not have to be questioned about carrying them out since they will be agreed upon. You won't have to go through a different system of decision for each case, but can use one single method to come to your decisions and carry on about your business.
Take care all.
Could someone PM me with what Kishi was actually banned for in the first place? I would like to get a clear idea of whats going on.
As far as CK, I gave up hope long ago of ever being one, that way I'm not so let down when I never become one.
EDIT: No more PM's neccesary. :)
I for one, most certainly DO NOT trust cl_out. :p . It should be obvious as to why.Quote:
Ha. It's sad. The only admin I trust is cl_out. WTF?
Ha!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Captain
It'll never happen, sorry Cap'n. *rhyme* Believe it or not, as I said in an earlier post, the more rules you make the more likely people are to break them. Also, you can never create a set of rules that covers every scenario and you do have to treat scenarios differently than you usually do on many an occasion. No offence to you whatsoever, but you're definitely showing your inexperience with board-running. It's not about being robotic and going by a strict set of rules. It's about using your judgement and making rules that often don't even get told to the public. "Crack down on spam for now" "Encourage spam now" etc... we need to constantly change in order to adjust to how the nature of the boards. A set of rules would never work and it would never be used for every case. If we had to follow a set group of rules or something, I may consider stepping down myself as I am staff 95% for the discussions that take place in there and 5% for actual action-taking. I fully encourage less rules, not more.
"It'll never happen, sorry Cap'n. *rhyme* Believe it or not, as I said in an earlier post, the more rules you make the more likely people are to break them. Also, you can never create a set of rules that covers every scenario and you do have to treat scenarios differently than you usually do on many an occasion. No offence to you whatsoever, but you're definitely showing your inexperience with board-running. It's not about being robotic and going by a strict set of rules. It's about using your judgement and making rules that often don't even get told to the public. "Crack down on spam for now" "Encourage spam now" etc... we need to constantly change in order to adjust to how the nature of the boards. A set of rules would never work and it would never be used for every case. If we had to follow a set group of rules or something, I may consider stepping down myself as I am staff 95% for the discussions that take place in there and 5% for actual action-taking. I fully encourage less rules, not more."
Perhaps you're right. I have no experience with board running, running other things but NEVER anything with a computer, though in my life I've found that having a firm foundation of rules does help when dealing with people because it allows them to see right off the bat what they can and cannot do.
Maybe you misunderstood me, or maybe I mistyped somewhere but I meant to say that I think a system should be used to determine things because it would get rid of the bickering. Just simply saying you did something because you can and because you have the power, while true, causes a great deal of ill will which isn't good for anyone. If a system is already in place on how these decisions get made, perhaps it needs to be explained so that this confusion can be put to rest for a while.
I have always believed on telling the public everything because it's just how I am. I believe that if everything is out in the open, the right decision gets made, regardless. Perhaps it's easier in reality than on the internet.
Take care all.
If you guys knew everything that went on in the staff forum, you'd see a lot of crap that the forums are better off not knowing about. The thing that started all of this is yet another example of that crap, but if you never knew about it, nobody outside staff would have been upset over it. It's known that staffers are more likely to grow to be grumpy than normal members, that's because they see what goes on behind the scenes. It's not all bad, don't get me wrong, but the fact that you guys can all be having fun while we're hiding some extremely intense and possibly heated debate in staff means that we're doing a good job, because if we let this kind of stuff slip on a regular basis then everyone at EoFF would end up feeling crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Captain
What you don't know can't hurt you.
RSL for admin(istrator) [img]http://home.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/heart.gif[/img]
Ignorance is bliss; knowledge is power :p
Actually, Daryl is the only Admin I trust.
I can not get over how much of a Communist Bob sounds, telling us what we would and wouldn't like to know. Crazy,
I'm gla this Kishi thing happened. Brought a light to a lot of things.
A staff title is nothing but an instrument. It allows one to easily do things that would be difficult or impossible without its aid, but it does not in any way change the individual who holds it; it remains external to and wholly dependent upon this person, and it can be used for good or ill. A staff title does not ennoble those who possess it; it does not purge their blood of base passions and create a new order superior by nature; it does not render their judgment infallible and their will supremely virtuous. For these reasons, the members constituting the staff should not be allowed to become a detached ruling class with the absolute power to do as they wish, as this will surely lead to the dissolution of the community.
What, then, is the proper role of the staff? It can be nothing else than to serve the community by maintaining the basic conditions necessary for the achievement of its ends, those being the general enjoyment of the free exchange of ideas and of mutual friendship. When any member uses the instrument of staff power deliberately against the will of the community or with reckless disregard for it, he or she betrays the community’s trust and harms its cohesion.
To avoid such pains, those members charged with the duties of the staff should not be deaf to counsel, no matter the source, and should never allow themselves to be so arrogant as to believe that they understand the will of the community better than its other members. Their uses of staff powers should not be shrouded in secrecy. Forum moderators and administrators are not priests or oracles: an air of mystery does not lend their decisions any sense of divine wisdom or supernatural authority, but can only result in failures of communication and even feelings of distrust. These feelings are not unjustified: members who insist upon concealing their uses of power are only more likely to succumb to the temptation to abuse them. More importantly, these members allow their titles to isolate them from the rest of the community, damaging the principle of friendship that is at the heart of the community’s being. Even if they do nothing to engender hatred or any other sentiment contrary to the spirit of friendship among the other members, they still risk distancing themselves and ceasing to truly be a part of the community.
Some current members of the staff have suggested that our recent troubles would not have happened or would at least have been milder if they could have kept a tighter lid on their actions. To this I reply that many such problems have arisen precisely as a result of the veil of secrecy and the isolation of the staff. The small size and lack of good ventilation in the staff forum only ensure that the place heats up very quickly. The self-imposed segregation of these members gives them a misdirected sense of duty, more paternalistic than friendly, especially when they fall into that remarkable tendency of considering themselves as staffers before (or even rather than) members of the community.
Returning to the general principles behind the proper use of staff powers, it is foolish and dangerous to exercise power capriciously, but obstinacy in adhering to rules and traditions regardless of present circumstances is no less an abuse. Those members given the responsibility of a staff position should never forget that people will always respect the power of the title, but their respect for the actual individuals who hold that title depends a great deal on how they use it, on whether they fulfill their obligation to serve the will of the community. A fine way to encourage a general sense of admiration is to use power only when it is necessary and to always be certain to use the right kind: there is much room for finesse in exercising one’s power, but too many times have staff members drawn a sword where a scalpel would be more fitting.
You should also have a sense of humor, or you won’t understand anything I’ve said.
It's current set-up has worked well for the past 5 years. You shouldn't let one event tear your world (online) apart. You might not like the outcome of the event but the outcome wasn't yours to decide so you can either get over it or go away, like in any real world situation. Some of your arguments might be "that's what we're trying to change", talking of the not being in the decision making process of events, but the fact remains that when everyone has a say nothing gets done. Leave the power in the few select people and it becomes functional. As for who gets to be the select few, some argue that it should be a vote made by the general public (the way America really works), which leads to the only real concern I see. How do we choose who gets to be an Admin? Is it better to let just any ol person to say, I want you *points*, or is it better to let the people who know what being an Admin is like, to choose who can handle the job.
The second concern is a set standard to follow in any given situation. I'm very well sure you can all think of a situation where the set standard didn't fully cover the situation. No set standard will ever be adeqaute for the situation because they are black and white and NO situation is exactly black or white. Every action has different circumstances. Different motivation, different intent, different way of doing the same action. It's impossible to set standards when life is a flexible thing. You need a flexible control system to handle life's flexible style.
Anyone who thinks that staff should be open and lack secrecy about everything that happens in staff can look to FFRepublic as a result of such staffing styles. We're open enough, but some things are better off not known by the general public. Would you expect the private forums where we discuss matters to be visible to all?
"The second concern is a set standard to follow in any given situation. I'm very well sure you can all think of a situation where the set standard didn't fully cover the situation. No set standard will ever be adeqaute for the situation because they are black and white and NO situation is exactly black or white. Every action has different circumstances. Different motivation, different intent, different way of doing the same action. It's impossible to set standards when life is a flexible thing. You need a flexible control system to handle life's flexible style."
My question though is, IS there even a flexible control system at work, or is it merely opinion?
Take care all.
I just want to add my own thought to what the Captain just quoted.
Because things are not black and white, isn't that why there are various degrees of penalties? Like the penalty is $100,000 to 4 years in jail?
"Would you expect the private forums where we discuss matters to be visible to all?"
Not all the time, but I think in cases that raise as much noise is this one, it would be very helpful for the members to see how the decision was rendered and not just be told that it was and that's all she wrote.
Take care all.
There is. The Feedback Constitution. If people followed it, things would run so much smoother.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Captain
EDIT: Also, Staff should absolutely have a secret forum. However, there's a valid point in that what Staff is discussing and the decisions made on those issues should be public knowledge if asked for. There doesn't need to be an announcement made for every banned member, but there should be answers to the questions.
Basically, more or less how you guys have answered all my questions the past several days. :p
I demand a Freedom of information act here at EoFF. :D
Seconded. Why the hell do you think I resigned? Crap like this whole 'Kishi issue which is being blown way the smurf out of proportion, and I'm seeing people I like say things that make me not want to like them. I left because I didn't want access to the staff forum. And much as I like D, I really wish he had just left this whole 'Kishi issue behind closed doors where it belongs. Let other people get mad about it and not spread the misery around to everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
If Staff is too embarrassed to tell us their decisions or are afraid it'll cause too much drama, then maybe those decisions are not in the best interest of EoFF.
I wouldn't say that. Tough decisions have to be made, and in a case like this you're going to anger a lot of people no matter what you do. If that's the case then maybe it's a good idea to hide it, or else events like these will become commonplace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
Oh, come off it, Raist. You of all people know that we'll never please everyone. If we make a big deal or even an announcement of any sort about any decision we make, drama will ensue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
There's a difference between "members questioning a decision" and drama. In this very rare case, there was drama.
I'm not saying to publicize everything. Members just don't need to know everything as they happen. You saw how I was against how FG publicized each banning. However, if a member asks something, I think it should be answered. There's no "for EoFF security" excuse for keeping information secret. If a member asks, "Hey, what happened with Kishi?" I'd expect for Staff to give him a summary of events. If no one asks, then no one cares.
My post was deleted :D By a non me person.
Oh, if someone asks, sure. But I'm talking about Big D coming out and blatantly disregarding staff policy. Nobody asked him anything, he just went out and caused drama. THAT was not needed. Only caused trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
You can't accuse someone of "blatantly disregarding staff policy" and then turn around and do it yourself.Quote:
Oh, if someone asks, sure. But I'm talking about Big D coming out and blatantly disregarding staff policy. Nobody asked him anything, he just went out and caused drama. THAT was not needed. Only caused trouble.
[Kelso]BURN![/Kelso]Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
I dunno if things have changed since I left, but things written in a dusty old tome 10,000 years ago never had precedence over human judgment when I was on staff. Clearly, the rules were written without anticipating that a long-serving staff member who has always been a pillar of the community running afoul of a difference of opinion about what is acceptable. Like Ashi said in the other thread, it was Masamune Shirow artwork, not a bloody centerfold from Hustler. Hustler centerfolds were what the no-porn rule was meant to prevent. It was certainly never written with the intention of causing a big mothersmurfing witch hunt directed against one of the few people that has made EoFF shine since the first day he registered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
It wouldn't be so bad Bleys if every staff member had not consistantly said there are no exceptions even for mods and admins. They clearly meant that rule to apply for all if they say that.
To me this isn't about Kawaii as I stated in the other thread. This is about the staff to me.
Exactly, so BoB can't use that as an excuse to defame D. I wasn't saying that ignoring staff policy is always bad. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Citizen Bleys
*sighs* I believe they were:Quote:
Clearly, the rules were written without anticipating that a long-serving staff member who has always been a pillar of the community running afoul of a difference of opinion about what is acceptable.
"I would ban my best friend if he did something wrong." - Daniel
"Carelessness is a choice as much as deliberately doing something wrong. We're all responsible for our own actions." - Unne
"Post porn, get banned. Proto, I think you know well enough that if you posted a picture like that, you would be banned. So would I. So would anyone." - RSL
"So, what if a Cid's Knight, or Administrator posted a similar picture that Peter posted, would the staff demote them and ban them for that?" - Proto, to Leeza
"Yes." - Leeza's reply, to Proto
"The only person exempt from the rules would be Sean." - RSL
"If I was in his position then I would probably say "oh crap, that was dumb of me" and go to one of the other 3 million message boards on the internet to get my net fix." -RSL
"Post porn, get banned. Seems pretty simple to me." - Yams
"In my eyes everyone here has the same chance to get banned. There are no "good members"." - Yams
"Once a decision is made, we stick with it. That's consistency." - Unne
"However, if policy changes and people are allowed a "second chance" for accidental posting of pornography/inappropriate imagery, then we're sending a message that it's quite all right to post it, provided it's only done once. Anyone with a chip on his or her shoulder could "inadvertently" post something objectionable and expect to get away with it. If PeTerL90 is unbanned, then anyone else banned for pronography could simply say, "I never posted that on purpose, you've got to unban me or else that proves you're biased and hypocritical because PeTerL90 got unbanned."
This would simply be unacceptable." - Big D
Some of those mentioned above actually meant what they said.
[q=Miguel de Unamuno]If a person never contradicts himself, it must be that he says nothing.[/q]
Raist, man, get some new material, I'm sure you've posted that a few times already and I'm pretty sure everyone's seen it.
I didn't see it. All I know is that the staff's word holds no merit any more. How do I know if they are lying or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Valid point, but that doesn't mean that it's right to contradict 5-year-old staff policy because the staff doesn't want to do the hard choice.Quote:
If a person never contradicts himself, it must be that he says nothing.
That involves me actually putting forth the effort to look. Those show that Staff contradicted themself. What good would further evidence do if apparently it doesn't matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Doesn't mean it's wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
But of course, this isn't the place for well-constructed arguments, now is it.
Ed: It's not a contradiction at all. 'Kishi didn't post porn. I've seen the image, and it's not bloody porn.
How the hell did you miss it? I've seen it at least 32 times. Nothing like repitition as a substitute for logic. It's almost as fun as bullsnikky, rhetoric, and deception as a substitute for logic. Isn't today's EoFF grand?Quote:
Originally Posted by edczxcvbnm
I didn't know where it was posted and no one is posting it...DUH :D
I actually came in late to this whole thing. I found out about the situation after the thread was originally closed...but since when would that stop me from giving everyone grief :D?
Bleys: you're the only one to say that most people wouldn't be banned for posting that image. Staff as a whole agrees that anyone else would be banned, and all the members I've shown it to agree it was banworthy, as per Staff precedent as to what's banworthy and what's not.
ed: hold on, I'll PM it to you. :p
I'll always give staff exceptions to the rules. They (we) deserve it. Feel free to quote me and add it to that unofficial sig of yours, Raist.
As long as we're repeating ourselves--no, I'm not. Check the other thread. As a matter of fact, the consensus of the current staff--whose job it is to make final decisions in disputes such as this one--is that Kishi shouldn't be banned. And as for disregarding staff policy, D didn't seek consensus, he just went ahead and opened the issue up, generating all of this drama. Not the intent, I'm sure, but it is the end result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
It's obvious that the opposing sides aren't going to come to a consensus on the Kishi issue, so I guess it's the staff's job to step in and make a final decision--which has been done. Unless Cid comes along and decides that following rules in a dusty old tome written without foresight of this particular situation--your "unofficial sig" qualifies--is worth more than Kishi is, he's not getting banned and that's it. End of story.