Now we have no Feedback Forum.

What's your opinion about the removal of the Feedback Forum? Do you agree with the staff's decision to remove it? If it was to return, or a new similar forum was to take its place, what would make it more successful? I'll include a poll sightly unrelated to the questions I ask concerning the Feedback Forum.

As for me, I think the decision to remove the Feedback Forum was a good idea. I made a thread in the Feedback Forum concerning the forum, and I suppose it was taken into consideration by some of the staff, and thus had the forum removed. Maybe it's only temporarily, or permanent, but I think it's for good of the forums. Lately, it's been spammy, a place to whine, and whatnot. I would like to tell the staff that the idea to remove the Feedback Forum was a good one. Some may agree with me, but others will not.

I think it was removed because no one wanted to hear any of the regular's opinions, or feedback, even though that's what the thing was designed for. Don't flame me though, thanks. :)

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Originally Posted by Agent Proto

I made a thread in the Feedback Forum concerning the forum, and I suppose it was taken into consideration by some of the staff, and thus had the forum removed.

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You seriously think the demise of the Feedback Forum was entirely your work? :rolleyes2

I know where I can spam legally! Eyes on Each Other! *skips off to do so*

Meh. I'm kinda indifferent to the whole thing.

And I'm pretty sure the happenin' place for legal spam is in the User Notes. :)

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Originally Posted by Miriel

And I'm pretty sure the happenin' place for legal spam is in the User Notes. :)

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Oh no, everyone knows now! :(

I only posted there like once when my avatar turned into Unne. O_o


So, I don't give a sh- I don't care. ^^

I'm sad to see it go, but considering recent events, I'm constrained to agree that it was the right decision.

I think it just needed to be locked up for a week. Over the past few weeks it has been a bit off the wall. Just a cool down period and during that come up with a set of rules that everyone should follow. Lets face it though. Everyone spammed in that forum from users, knights to admins at the end.

Most of the time it was good but the last few weeks have been pretty bad. I say bring it back in 2 weeks and let it be the same as always.

So much for my voice being heard in staff. I suppose Roogle doesn't understand the meaning of member feedback. This is just another step towards totalitarianism, remember that when they get rid of EoEo next and Del and I have no say in it.

It went away RIGHT when I needed to make a feedback thread for the first time ever. :(

I'll miss the feedback forum, but I do understand where the staff are coming from in removal of it to be honest.

You abuse a privilege, you lose it. Simple as that. I understand completely why it was removed.

As long as members can still provide feedback through PMs, and as long as people are willing to use that system, then I can understand the decision. The number of useful threads in feedback was rapidly diminishing, and the place wasn't really serving any purpose.

I'll miss it all the same though. Feedback was for a long time one of my favourite forums, especially after my interest in FF started to wane and I turned my back on the lower half of the boards for good. There were some great threads in there, not always on topic, but great all the same.

One important question remains though: With his former home gone, will Raistlin now be forced into the harsh unforgiving world of General Chat?

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Originally Posted by Rye

I think it was removed because no one wanted to hear any of the regular's opinions, or feedback, even though that's what the thing was designed for. Don't flame me though, thanks. :)

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I agree with you, everything here recently... honestly :rolleyes2

Yes, we all know how seriously the admins take PMs. Spammy or not, Feedback has been there for ages, and has served a purpose. That purpose was for you guys to voice your opinions. Now you have no voice. Good luck with that.

As far as I'm concerned, there were only two things that were regularly found in Feedback. Spam and unneeded drama. I think that people will actually be listened to more if they take the time to PM an admin, anyway. It means the admin doesn't have the pressure of the entire world waiting for their answer.

Did you guys know that, way back when I suggested Feedback, it was supposed to be just a thread? Then Scottie made a forum, and everyone was all "wtf?" and he was all "oh, sorry" and then we were all "eh, we'll see how it goes". So now that we've seen how it's gone (over a damn long time, mind you), we've made our decision and decided against a Feedback forum. :D

I've been gunning for that forum to be removed for a while now, mind you.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

...we've made our decision and decided against a Feedback forum. :D

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You guys have, I haven't.

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Originally Posted by Czech. Republic

As long as members can still provide feedback through PMs, and as long as people are willing to use that system, then I can understand the decision. The number of useful threads in feedback was rapidly diminishing, and the place wasn't really serving any purpose.

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I don't believe that feedback can be as effective on a one to one ratio (ala PM) as it can be through a thread with multiple posters contributing their thoughts on a particular feedback idea.

But hey, there's always Eljay.

And if all this recent drama is in fact an April Fool's joke, all I can say is: good job. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Yamaneko

Yes, we all know how seriously the admins take PMs. Spammy or not, Feedback has been there for ages, and has served a purpose. That purpose was for you guys to voice your opinions. Now you have no voice. Good luck with that.

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Nobody gave a crap about what I had to say anyway. :D

I've never tried PMing an admin before, because that's what the feedback forum was there for. Now it isn't, I'll try the PM route, and if it turns out to be useless, then I'll be all for bringing back the feedback forum. If I could figure out where to post the suggestion, that is.

EDIT: I'd agree with you on that one, Miriel, and that's one of the reasons why I think removing feedback will be bad for the board in the long run. However, I'm willing to give the new system a chance before condemning the decision entirely.

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Originally Posted by Miriel

I don't believe that feedback can be as effective on a one to one ratio (ala PM) as it can be through a thread with multiple posters contributing their thoughts on a particular feedback idea.

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Ask me a question in private and I'll be much more considerate of it. I always find myself under pressure when posting in Feedback, and it tends to make me very, very defensive. I get PMs complaining about things and I make sure they're dealt with fairly. I think PMs are better for complaints and threads are better for general discussion (ie, "What do you think of _____?" kind of stuff).

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Originally Posted by Citizen Bleys

I'm sad to see it go, but considering recent events, I'm constrained to agree that it was the right decision.

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You guys have such a skewed perspective. If Feedback wasn't here, I imagine D would've posted in GC or something.

Also: how does one bad incident take away from all the good things and good discussions Feedback had?

I think this is a horrible idea. Feedback is where Staff could get...well, feedback from the members. What will members do now if they have a problem? PM an admin? Ok, so how does that admin know if this is only a one-case scenario, or the concern is more widespread? Without the Feedback forum, you won't.

EDIT: I love you again, Yams.

I'm not happy to see it gone necessarily...but it was a good decision. :)

Ain't that a kick in the teeth.

I am growing increasingly wary of whether the Staff even listen to each other now.


Take care all.

The main problem that I can see with this new PM system is the following: Let's say a member has a suggestion for EoFF, and PM's it to Loony BoB. Disaster strikes! BoB doesn't like this suggestion, so he decides not to raise it with the other staff. However, it just so happens that this idea is really wonderful and amazing and the staff would have enacted it had it been raised in Feedback, but due to the personal bias of Loony BoB, the great suggestion is not put into place.

And I'm not saying BoB would do this or anything, it's just that he's the only admin to have posted in this thread so he volunteered himself to be the example :p

I'm quite surprised and disappointed with you all. This one-on-one feedback through PMs is limited to personal troubles. What about the bigger issues that must be addressed by the whole community? Are you going to mass PM everyone?

Holy crap, people, how was the right decision made? Yes, things got overblown this past week, but that was the fault of staff, not the members.

Also, and I'm quoting myself here, how does one incident negate years of good things, informative discussion, and fun? EoFF exists outside that whole Kishi debate, y'know.

EDIT:

ere1055: especially since, basically, they deleted it because people were using it.

Elyse. :love:

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Originally Posted by The Captain

Ain't that a kick in the teeth.

I am growing increasingly wary of whether the Staff even listen to each other now.


Take care all.

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Agreed. What worries me is not that feedback was removed, but that it was done so without the consultation of the entire staff. Either that or the views of some staffers have been ignored, which is just as bad.

All it needs is stricter rules against spam and drama. Remember when Eyes on Each Other became all spammy and drama-y? It was fixed by setting a stricter set of rules. The same could be applied to feedback.

Without the feedback forum, we wouldn't of had a lot of the cool things we have now. Like the Goomba smilie. :goomba:

It seems the members here have a better idea about "compromise" and "fixing the problem rather then running away from it" than does the Staff.

the feedback forum is gone. so?

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

The main problem that I can see with this new PM system is the following: Let's say a member has a suggestion for EoFF, and PM's it to Loony BoB. Disaster strikes! BoB doesn't like this suggestion, so he decides not to raise it with the other staff. However, it just so happens that this idea is really wonderful and amazing and the staff would have enacted it had it been raised in Feedback, but due to the personal bias of Loony BoB, the great suggestion is not put into place.

And I'm not saying BoB would do this or anything, it's just that he's the only admin to have posted in this thread so he volunteered himself to be the example :p

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All suggestions get put into staff. Half the suggestions you guys come up with, I've already come up with in the past, anyway. I found one of the really recent ones kind of amusing because I suggested it in staff and the idea got shot down pretty fast. The only difference between me and a few of you guys is that I don't consider it the end of the world when I don't get my own way. Also, I actually saw the point of view displayed against my idea and agreed with them. Hooray!

But yeah, if you guys ask a question about something that's been done, then you'll get an answer in PM, and it probably won't get discussed in staff since it's a question about something that's already happened. Any suggestions for the future, though, tend to get put into staff as far as I know. There are a few exceptions - eg, suggestions for Eizon improvements that were PMed to me - because they aren't to do with Staff as a whole but are to do with myself, who was the only staffer running Eizon. Any suggestions to do with Eizon on a forum-level that were sent to other mods/admins were posted into the staff forum saying "BoB, look at this, will you?" etc. So ner! We're awesome.

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Originally Posted by YukiKiro

the feedback forum is gone. so?

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Maybe you didn't use it, but to a lot of members it was extremely important.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Ask me a question in private and I'll be much more considerate of it. I always find myself under pressure when posting in Feedback, and it tends to make me very, very defensive. I get PMs complaining about things and I make sure they're dealt with fairly. I think PMs are better for complaints and threads are better for general discussion (ie, "What do you think of _____?" kind of stuff).

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But see BoBBie, questions and complaints are a little different than feedback. This here thread is a great example of what feedback should look like (well, minus the apparent bad feelings this thread is oozing with).

If Proto had PMed you and said, "hey, great job getting rid of Feedback, I like your hair...and your teeth" and had not made this thread, you couldn't have gotten any of these other responses.

Besides, I'm wary of PMs. Not quite sure why, but I am.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Yes, things got overblown this past week, but that was the fault of staff, not the members.

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I don't think that's true. :)

So all the discussion and member input is null?

Members - we can't discuss anything among ourselves as to how the board's run. We have to let Staff discuss it. The most we can do is send a PM to a staffer, and ask them.

Feedback is the best and easiest way to get an overall view of what the members think. If that's what Staff considers unnecessary...well, goes to show what the Staff thinks of members' opinions.

EDIT:

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I don't think that's true.

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Now's not the place to discuss it, but ex-Staff members brought up the discussion in Feedback.

Science term for the month: Entropy.

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Originally Posted by Citizen Bleys

I'm sad to see it go, but considering recent events, I'm constrained to agree that it was the right decision.

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I'll have to double that one.

I mean, the feedback forum was initially a way to allow members to interact with the forums on a different level. It was supposed to be a place where individuals could demonstrate "democracy" if you will, to state any suggestions, problems, issues that would allow members, not just staff, to impact the way in which the forums would evolve.

However, if the concept has been perveted.

Kill it.

If people can't utilize this opportunity maturely, then perhaps it just goes to show that the forums are better off without the insight of it's members...

Now that was the most atrotious thing I've ever said... It's really sad.


I think I'm going to go cry in a corner now.

PS)
I do earnestly hope that the ability for members to participate on this level isn't completely out of reach. I've always believed in a sense of unity amoung community by showing how important communication is.

Even this topic demonstrates a sense of feedback... Perhaps though, the feedback forums don't necessarily need to be around... but I always thought that instead of having a feedback topic (such as this, in the General Chat) it was more appropriate in it's own section because it would increase the attention it received from the staff.


I have a question:

Without the Feedback Forums will the staff take notice to issues and topics that members pose, in persay General Chat, or will these topics be skipped over more easily? Like a topic from an unrecognized member who doesn't seem to know what they are talking about... but might actually have something pertinant to say.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm going to get ignored, I'd rather get a PM ignored than a thread in feedback. It's much more frustrating to be publically ignored.

Though if a thread is ignored publically, the public can at least see that you and what you have to say has been ignored.

Take care all.

The whole point of removing the feedback forum was to prevent the sort of drama that occurred last week. Looking at this thread, it clearly hasn't done a very good job.

Yams and Raist have a very good point, and while PMing is one way of providing feedback, it isn't the best. Without mass member input it can't hope to be anywhere near as effective as a regular forum, and the board will be at a disadvantage because of it. I'd be willing to try out a PM system, but given the choice between that and a feedback forum, I'd take feedback any day.

With the Feedback forum deleted, those kinds of stupid suggestion-threads will only be put in GC. Removal of the Feedback forum was an immature, temporary solution to an imaginary problem. If the Staff wants to limit the spam in Feedback, go for it. If they want to limit the number of stupid smiley suggestion threads, go for it. But if they want to take away a place for members to publicly give Feedback, and to have member criticism/discussion? That's saying "we didn't like how you disagreed with us last time, so we'll make sure it doesn't happen again."

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If people can't utilize this opportunity maturely, then perhaps it just goes to show that the forums are better off without the insight of it's members...

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There were plenty of mature threads. My "'abusing' the Swear filter" thread, the "Serious or silly?" thread, the EoFF Constitution thread...and those are just the first three that popped into my head. All valid threads. As I said, if the Staff wants to limit the spam and unnecessary threads, that's fine. The spam isn't the members' fault - it's the fault of the lenience of the Staff.

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Originally Posted by Yamaneko

You guys have, I haven't.

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That statement amuses me. So you're saying your one vote should outweigh the rest of the staff? Very few people think removing Feedback wasn't a good idea. You can't always get your way, Yams.

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

That statement amuses me. So you're saying your one vote should outweigh the rest of the staff? Very few people think removing Feedback wasn't a good idea. You can't always get your way, Yams.

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Very few people in Staff, maybe. Oh, that's right - member input doesn't count! That's why you deleted the Feedback forum in the first place! Ok, I got it now. Silly me.

Raistlin, although I feel you've taken my comments out of context, I do agree with the point you've just made. I was hoping to reach the same idea, though I suppose I was less clear in my intentions.

Another point I'd like the staff to take into consideration, are how topics are going to be differentiated if they are brought over into the GC.

There are topics that pose as actual issues. For instance "This Must Be Adressed" (or something to that extent) emits a sense of urgency.

Is it possible that issues will loose a sense of importance by placing them beside more general topics as previously stated?

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Very few people in Staff, maybe. Oh, that's right - member input doesn't count! That's why you deleted the Feedback forum in the first place! Ok, I got it now. Silly me.

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This thread has provided us with enough member input to reinforce that removing Feedback was the right decision.

And this thread is also quickly beginning to demonstrate one of the main reason's Feedback was removed: bitter oldbies making snide remarks rather than actual feedback. You are now free to whine in PM, if it suits you. Your public feedback is not welcome at this time.

*closes*

I don't see bitterness. I see the mature discussion that Feedback was created for, and had.

I was really high on your handling of recent events, Shlup, but the way you and Roogle and BoB went about this Feedback closure was beyond unprofessional. Mine and Yams's arguments were basically ignored, and I didn't appreciate that.

I consider this a slap in the face. Feedback has always been the place where everyone knows your name, where you can relax and talk about the issues with people who actually care about the site. Recent events may have caused it to heat up a bit, yes, but is that any reason to abandon the smurfing place? What's with everyone abandoning eeverything recently? I swear you people need to grow some spines and stick with it in bad times. Without the Feedback forum us mods run around basically unrestrained, and that is a recipe for disater.

Sure the spam was bad, and I'll admit that I may have had a part in that, but hell, this place is supposed to be fun. Where has all the fun gone? If you don't allow us to kick back and have a few beers after arguing about the swear filter, then you'll have a very bitter forum on your hands.

Obviously from the poll and the opinions in this thread the members don't agree with this decision. I think they should be allowed the chance to at least give us (or you, as it were) reason to bring it back. I'm reopening this thread for that reason. I admire Yams for standing up for what he believes in and what is right. He is an American hero.

I love you too, Del. :love:

People worry too much about drama. The Kishi thing is settled...why delete Feedback? I don't agree with the removal of the forum at all, considering the recent downsizing of current staff and whatnot. What the hell, man....We can't speak our minds anymore? Saying what he think publicly, so that other members can have at least an "agree or disagree" with another regular member is more than a privilage that would be taken away if "abused". It's a right.

This is what I think, no holds barred. The Feedback forum was taken away due to all or most of the following:

1. Inability to handle member-staff conflict. Yes, there are stubborn people who let issues just die, but dealing with those people in a good manner is a great practice. When there's nothing more you can say other than "Tough, deal with it.", at least say it with some degree of that so that it don't see like those people aren't shut out completly.

2. "The kiddies can't handle the privilige of speak out minds about the forums in a public area, so we'll have to take that away." In case you didn't get that, I'm saying that our rights are being taken away like a child who has been grounded for a year. Except we didn't do nothing to really deserve it.

3. Personal grudges. Just because one person is a pain in the side of a certain staffer doesn't mean that they should shut him out. Refer to #1 for the reason that's been happening.

The deletion of the feedback forum is bogus, and the only positive I see is the debate over PeterL90 getting shot down considerably. But the negatives far outweigh that positive.

This is disgusting.

I'm sorry you and Yams can't accept that you were out voted, Del, but the Feedback Forum was removed because most of the staff deemed it a good idea. I'm sorry everyone feels that staff members not agreeing with them means they were completely ignored, but that is ridiculous. Sorry you guys can't get your way all the time, but that's the way life is. Want Feedback back, Del? Then quit acting like a baby and re-opening closed threads. If your intention, however, is to piss me off than you have done a smashing job.

Keep your problems in the staff forum, Del, lest you turn out like D and just stir up a bunch of unneeded crap. Everyone who has agreed to have their concerns addressed via PM seems satisfied with the results.

And somehow, against all odds, you've managed to prevail in your quest to keep kishi unbanned, despite vast opposition (while I defended you) by the rest of staff. M'kay... *whistles*

From where I sit it seems to be you who is the one stirring. Just because I bring up valid points doesn't mean you have to get defensive.

All I wanted is the opportunity for the members to speak their mind. If not in a Feedback forum, then perhaps in this one thread, for no other purpose than to show the staff what a mistake this was and perhaps change the minds of those in that 'majority' (perhaps the members would be interested in knowing what your definition of that word is).

What do you mean "rest of the staff"? I wasn't the only one who wanted Kishi unbanned and you know it. Now because you two don't get your way you're turning on me. Very cute.

EDIT: Del, a staff decision has been made. If you don't agree with it and would rather continue to make a public display of it then you are welcome to leave. When you became a staff member, you agreed to uphold staff decisions, even if you don't agree with them. A lot of people seem to be forgetting that.

Not turning, simply:

'doing what's best for the board' -Raistlin

WTS? You closed it again?

Ah, yes, the grand coalition of Shlup and Roogle.

This is so inappropriate. If you can't drop it, keep it in the staff forum. The fact that you two think this behavior is acceptable in public is insane.

A lot of good voicing our opinions in staff has done us.

This isn't about us, it's about the members. I too agree that we should keep it in the Staff Forum (though Yams has a point), but at the very least leave this open until a non staff member acts in a way that warrants its closure.

*reopens*

I think removing the Feedback Forum was a totally wrong decision.

And I'm not a bitter oldbie.

*high-fives Jojo*

*has to get down on hands and knees to do so* :p

I think the opinion of the members is pretty clear. But then again, as it was last time.

What's a Feedback forum?

good going del. seriously. we're told to PM but you guys saw fit to post an a closed thread, the ammount of hypocracy continues to accumulate.

If the staff want to remove the Feedback Forum, which I think is still a good idea, you guys should have picked a better time to do so. Because with all this hoopla going around, now isn't the best time to rid EoFF of the forum. I believe that once everything is under control, and by under control, I mean that none of this nonsense is going on, then the staff can decide to remove the Feedback, because it won't cause much of a hassle.

But that's just my opinion.

I think it would still cause a hassle. Time won't change it. The Feedback forum has a purpose. If the Staff wants to make stricter rules regarding it to have that purpose more apparent, then that's fine. But this is unnacceptable.

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Originally Posted by YukiKiro

good going del. seriously. we're told to PM but you guys saw fit to post an a closed thread, the ammount of hypocracy continues to accumulate.

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Some members feel that they should have input on the running of the forums instead of blindly following what they are told all the time.

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Originally Posted by Quina

What's a Feedback forum?

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You should get out more.

I've only been a member here for a couple of weeks, but I've already utilized the Feedback Forum. It seemed to me to be a good place for intelligent discussion regarding the forums and forum policies.

Question for the masses: Why not designate the Help Forum as the new Feedback Forum? I'm sure you can be liberal enough to make that place fit the bill.

Bitter oldbies? Geez. I didn't think I could be a bitter newbie from day 1 :D

I'm Texan. Us and liberal aren't in the same dictionary.

Once the duke [Cesare Borgia] had taken over Romagna, he found it had been commanded by impotent lords who had been readier to despoil their subjects than to correct them, and had given their subjects matter for disunion, not for union. Since that province was quite full of robberies, quarrels, and every other kind of insolence, he judged it necessary to give it good government, if he wanted to reduce it to peace and obedience to a kingly arm. So he put there Messer Remirro de Orco, a cruel and ready man, to whom he gave the fullest power. In a short time Remirro reduced it to peace and unity, with the very greatest reputation for himself. Then the duke judged that such excessive authority was not necessary, because he feared that it might become hateful; and he set up a civil court in the middle of the province, with a most excellent president, where each city had its advocate. And because he knew the past rigors had generated some hatred for [him], to purge the spirits of that people and to gain them entirely to himself, he wished to show that if any cruelty had been committed, this had not come from him but from the harsh nature of his minister. And having seized this opportunity, he had him placed one morning in the piazza at Cesena in two pieces, with a piece of wood and a bloody knife beside him. The ferocity of this spectacle left the people at once satisfied and stupefied.

-Machiavelli, The Prince VII. (Harvey Mansfield, trans.)

There's no way this isn't an April Fools joke.

Good job on deleting this thread, Shlup.

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Originally Posted by Flamethrower

There's no way this isn't an April Fools joke.

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And if it isn't? =)

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Originally Posted by Caspian

And if it isn't? =)

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Then I will lose faith in humanity.

Look at the clues. It HAS to be an April Fools joke.

PMing can be a pretty unnerving task, if you don't know the people you are PMing personally. As a newbie of a forum, I would not want to PM a prominent admin (especially if they seem a bit cranky at times) to give input on how the forums should be run. In such a big forum as this, I may not even dare to think that my opinion mattered (whether it does or not).

With a feedback forum, first of all, there is already a set place where people can give suggestions. Having a dedicated forum to feedback would actually encourage members to give their input. It would indicate to them that their opinion does matter. It's easier to give a suggestion in a forum where you see what input there is on it, instead of having the staff (or one staff member) discuss this in a secret forum.

Also, have you, the staff, come to a conclusion that EVERY member suggestion should be put into staff? If [whoever started the thread] PMed ShlupQuack (not singling, just first admin that came to mind) with "Can we have a T-rex smiley ^__^ *insert Linus gif*" would she deem the suggestion as stupid and irrelevant, and fail to post it in the staff forum? I agree that the T-rex smiley is pretty trivial, so that may not be a good example, but to some people it may not be. I've seen that the staff and members do not agree on which issues seem trivial and which do not; from this thread, some think that taking away the feedback forum is a trivial matter; others do not.

Not to mention that even if all member feedback IS posted in the staff forum, you don't get to see the MEMBER input on the situation, only the staff input. I don't know how much member feedback is actually valued, but if it isn't, I think it should be. :)

And April Fools jokes should be done on April Fools, dammit xD

*Votes against*

Jesus H. Christ, I'm beginning to wonder if the higher-ups here work as low-level, downtrodden peons during the day, and running this forum is their vacation, outlet or both.

Turning this place away from the fun, easy-going place it once was in order to battle the evils of Drama and Spam? I think you need to put this into perspective.

I admit things needed to be done about the problems with the Feedback forum, but this should have been given more thought. Clearly the member populace and a good chunk of the staff don't feel this was the right decision, so efforts should have been made to come to a compromise. What prevented this from happening?