Let's discuss the pros and cons of affirmative action programs.
Printable View
Let's discuss the pros and cons of affirmative action programs.
It's unfair, in my opinion. It's reverse racism. If a caucasian person gets higher grades, he should be chosen first for a college, not a member of minority with a lower grade. If the member of minority gets the higher grade than the caucasian person, then that member of minority should be chosen first. It should just be equal.
When the program was first set up, it was done to counter years and years of obvious racial inequality throughout the school and college systems. Yet, perhaps it is time to revisit this program and theory and see if it has done its job. If that's the case, perhaps a new program can be implimented that is equal all around, where harsh, harsh penalties are placed upon schools that don't try to give each person a chance to succeed, but keep in keeping on with what they want to do.
I've never been a fan of university elitism or the notion that some schools have a status they need to maintain, hence they fill quotas of races to keep their school in balance because when all is said and done, education should be for all people, no matter race, creed or culture, and we should strive to give each person the chance to get an education where they deserve to go.
Take care all.
Last time this topic was brought up, I was enraged for pages and pages.
I'll just say that racism is wrong, always, and leave it at that.
It also reduces the value of education for "minority" races. If they don't have to work as hard, they won't, and the ones who still do won't be given the respect that they deserve. It actually hurts the minority peoples more than it helps them anymore.
affirmative action atually goes beyond race and college aid but i'll just folow the trend started here...
No we probably shouldn't give preference to brown people but we should give preference to poor people. Wealth is the biggest indicator of who goes to college or not. And considering how the scales are tipped in this country, if we did move towards lower income preference brown people would still get a bigger chunk of the aid pie than white people. Poor white folk in rural areas probably need education more than anybody else.
And while we're at it, we should get rid of legacy preference too. That has put more people through college than 'affirmative action.'
I believe discrimination based upon race (or sex, or creed, or nationality, etc.) is wrong, period. It doesn't matter what color somebody is, if they get something--college, job, whatever--because they're a certain color, picked over somebody of a different color that would have been better qualified, it's wrong.
I realize that in America, in the past, racism was a big part of society. I do, however, believe that this has reversed, and the groups that used to be discriminated against now have the upper hand. Because of things like Affirmative Action.
I think it's ok. Colleges look at lots of things when they decide who to admit. They look at your activities, the region of the country that you are from, and other factors. If all college admissions were nothing but a numerical game of comparing GPAs, then I could see a point. But since part of the equation of college admissions are nontangible things like activities and region of the country you are from, as well as a college essay, I don't see much problem in making race one factor among all of the other factors. Anyway, many people with lower ACTs than me got in to college on sports scholarships.
it hasn't racism is still teh same way it has been and its still a big way society is ran on.No one thnks aobut it now because racism isn't a law anymore but that doesnt means it disappeared.even though you say minorities have an upperhand we really don't.You guys still have the upper hands in american society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
woohoo im taking my free ride fool hey look udsuna im gonna put G-Dawg on my name and i'll get into OU for sure :DQuote:
Originally Posted by udsuna
MY opinion on this really in a society that had racism as a law then this got set up mainly to tell employers to shove it an dhire these minorities or your company is gone.Well it was needed.In a way still needed.Without Afirmative Action then Minorities and women will not get the jobs they worked hard for heck twice as hard for if anything.
We do two folds the work than a white male does yet a white male will say we got it off easy.WEll if we got it off so easy then you guys sure as hell are getting a bigger break.
thats my opinion bias so what thats what an opinion is you can't say it "neutrally".How can one be neutral on what he or she stands for?
I leave it to that.
Actually, unfortunately, Affirmative action is so extreme to make that true. You spell like that on your applications, and they'll try to pick the next black guy to come along. Unless they don't have enough, then, disgustingly enough, they would be FORCED to take you.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordblazer
Oh, and my opinion is neutral, based entirely upon empirical evidence, no bias, what-so-ever. I earned my way through college. It'd have been nice to have the kinds of handouts you'll be getting (coulda went to a much better college), but I did it anyways.
Now, if you want someone with passion on this, you should talk to my friend Denise, SHE actually put "white" on her application (and she's the color of ground coffee, hehe) specifically so that she wouldn't be chosen based upon Affirmative Action. Of course, no employer knows (or would believe) that, so her education, though just as earned, is less valuable than a similarly qualified white person.
So, I'm neutral... she, however, is passionate about the subject. I told her the last time this subject came up. THIS time, I won't make the same mistake. She'd probably join the forum, just to tell you off, and get herself banned in her very first post. And maybe me in the process.
WEll thats in theory oh yeah imm gonna goto OU and get a free ride due to a scholarship program called OHLAP because my family income comes in as poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by udsuna
There ar etons of ways to get free rides through college unless your middle class.
lets talk more about the working force.The thing about AA dicussions is the fact that everyone has mixed feelings but i think we all gain some new understanding of life over this.
"It also reduces the value of education for "minority" races. If they don't have to work as hard, they won't, and the ones who still do won't be given the respect that they deserve. It actually hurts the minority peoples more than it helps them anymore."
Very good point. It's gotten to the extent in America that all too many college diplomas for minorites are looked upon with doubt because the employer (or whoever) doesn't know if the person actually earned that scholarship, or if it was given (or helped) because they weren't white.
"There ar etons of ways to get free rides through college unless your middle class."
Unless you're white middle class. There are always ways to get help through college, and some are non-discriminating (clubs, grades, etc.), but many are based upon race or ethnicity.
Just because my parents are middle-class, should that make a difference in how much financial help I get to get me through college? My parents won't pay a dime for anything concerning me--didn't help with a vehicle, or a job, and they won't help with college. So why does it make a difference if my parents are living in a box of a mansion, if they ain't gonna give me any money anyway? Hell, even if they were to provide me with financial backing through college, why would that make a difference?
It's the problem of a society that concentrates too much on making everybody "equal". Newsflash, though, not everybody is equal. Yes, all men (and women) are created equal. It's what they decide to do with their lives that puts them above or below the rest of us. If I spend all my money on drugs and alcohol and end up living out on the streets, it doesn't matter what color I am, I'm a loser and a bum. And if I make a good career, or invent something that makes me a fortune, again, it doesn't matter what color I am. Everybody in America has the same opportunities, it's what we make of these opportunities that reflects upon the rest of our race.
What makes you think everybody in America has to work their hind end off, but white males just sit on their asses and collect better paychecks?
[q=Sasquatch]Very good point. It's gotten to the extent in America that all too many college diplomas for minorites are looked upon with doubt because the employer (or whoever) doesn't know if the person actually earned that scholarship, or if it was given (or helped) because they weren't white.[/q]
Now, i can agree that maybe its time to figure out a new system, however, i dont agree with that particular statement. Now a minority may get into college based on Color, but i be damned if they dont have to fight to stay in. If you graduated from somewhere like Harvard, you can be damn sure that if your arent a rich person, you earned that degree. Cause a college will kick you out if your grades arent up to standards. That i do know. They will kick you out no matter what your color is. So AA has nothing to do with how well you do once you accually get into college. The only thing that helps to get a diploma given to you is money. Like i was watching a that show on HBO again called "born Rich" and one of the kids said :
"I had pretty decent grades in High school, but im pretty sure that i would have gotten into Brown weather or not my grades had been good or bad."
so yeah, anyway, i will most certian agree that minorities have it easy getting in to college. But they work just as hard as anyone else to stay in it.
Sorry, I don't have any information that I can cite to television shows, so you've definitely got the upper hand here :rolleyes2: . Oh, sorry, reality television, right?
Money matters little in college, unless you plan to buy off your teachers, or unless the student's family is extremely rich and the school doesn't want to lose their sponsorship. Color, however, matters not only in enrollment, but in continuation of such. They may not turn a blind eye to a black person's grades/conduct, but they will allow a minority more chances and time than a white student.
"I had pretty decent grades in High school, but im pretty sure that i would have gotten into Brown weather or not my grades had been good or bad." That might go towards many more people than just the extraordinarily wealthy.
Well, I live in South Africa. (I am not racist in any way, many of my friends are of different races)
Affirmative action, has evolved to such an extent, that is has completely become racism all over again.
If I apply for employment, this is what will happen:
1) I apply (white) 100% Qualified
2) A black person 80% Qualified
3) Female(white) 90% Qualified
The results will be: First a black woman, then a black man, then a white woman, and finally a white male (Even if I have better qualifications). COMPLETELY PREJUDICE!
But, fortunately, I plan to immigrate from South Africa, as soon as I have finished High School (I will apply for University in the US, or UK)
If you're looking to get away from racism, I'd look real carefully around the U.S., because that sort of thing happens constantly here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
Yeah Sphere, dont come here. They just hand jobs out to black people here. Just last month i got handed a job paying a 6 figure salary. Why would you want to live in a place like this :rolleyes2
Oh, how I'd LOVE to meet and hang out with this chick! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by udsuna
I have mixed feelings on Affirmative Action. Let me get one thing clear first though, so no one say "omg teh idiot liberal hipocrite~!!11":
Affirmative Action IS racism. It's racism with everyone, just in different ways depending on who it is.
Before I came to Oklahoma (lordblazer is also from Oklahoma I've noticed), I thought Affirmative Action was the most rediculous, discusting, unbelievable thing I'd ever heard of. I thought it was wrong in every possible way.
Now that I've been here for nearly 5 years, I have seen that Affirmative Action in certain parts of the United States is a necessary evil. I don't care if you believe me or not. It is. If not for Affirmative Action, no one who is black here would have a job...I've talked to employers here that have blatantly stated that if not for Affirmative Action they would't have any *explicitive* working under them.
I hate Affirmative Action, but until people in places like this can get past their idiotic way of thought, it's needed. I think people should be hired/admitted based upon how qualified they are, not because they're black, white, hispanic, gay, man, woman, or from the sanatan dahrma church. I really wish that's how it could be.
I also feel pretty passionate about it, though not nearly as much as I do on say, gay marriage, but I'm in the middle with it. I want it to be gone, but I know it has to stay. I definitely see where lordblazer aquires his stance though, being black and living in Oklahoma.
Of course, I sure as hell don't want my college admittance handed to me because of my hispanic or native american background (although, that's happened already), because weather or not it's being handed to me or restricted, it's still racism against me, and it's still wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMKA
Thank you, i was trying to explain that to people( Sasquatch) in another tread but he said i was wrong. I tried to tell him that Its still needed cause there are alot of places in america that have employers with the same feelings that the ones DMKA described. So until everybody is fair, you gotta have something that forces people to let minorities work. Plain and simple. The downside is that it creates alittle problem when it comes to fairness in other places, but as a whole, it is still very needed.
The sad thing is, that some people dont know how bad it is as a minority to make it in some places in the country. And, since they dont know, They act like it doesnt exist. But this jsut goes back to a statement i made awhile ago. If you are white in america, you will never know what its like to be a black person or any other minority in america. You will never know or understand how hard it is, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exsist. Also, the average white person doesnt really care about what minorities go through because they will never go through some of the problems we have.
Can you make a post that even mentions "racism" without directing it towards me?
Affirmative Action causes resentment, that's obvious enough. If I own a place and it's my responsibility to hire people, and black people want to form organizations that force Affirmative Action on me--meaning, force me to hire possibly less-qualified applicants because they're a different color--then I will learn not to like black people. If I see every day and have to think "man, if that guy were white, he would have been fired months ago, but since he's black, we can't do anything to him, and he knows that", then I'd start resenting black people. And when the Affirmative Action program ended, for a short time, I probably wouldn't hire any black people, unless I found one outstanding applicant. If I was forced to spend years hiring often less-qualified people because they were black, then I would spend a little while not hiring any black people at all. It's like when you're forced to eat hot dogs for a couple weeks straight, then get a choice, do you go back to hot dogs right away?
Affirmative Action also breeds low standards, and a bad public opinion. As was mentioned before, when some members of a group of people can and do get things simply because they belong to that group, people look down on everybody in that group. A black guy got an Associates degree...great, good for him. Now, did that guy earn his degree like most everybody else had to do, or did he get "help" because of his skin color, like some of the other people in his "group" did? And if the guy knows that he'll be provided with a degree even if his grades and such are only mediocre, will he try to do well, or to even meet the standards of everybody else? If you knew all through high school that you would get into college--or even moreso, if you knew that you would get a degree--would you actually try?
"I've talked to employers here that have blatantly stated that if not for Affirmative Action they would't have any *explicitive* working under them."
Quite frankly, is that because they're racist, or because they don't have any qualified '*explicitive*''s working for them and would fire them if they could, and not hire more because they can't find qualified ones?
Some professional basketball players are accusing the NBA of being racist because in general, black coaches seem to get fired more than white coaches. They ignore the fact that black coaches have worse records than white coaches, or many other factors--he might not get along with people, etc. See that? The NBA is racist. Guess we should institute Affirmative Action and make sure employment equals population, right? That means 12% of the players, and the coaches, are black...so out of the starters, one can be black, the rest have to be Hispanic, Oriental, white, or otherwise. Or would that be racist?
If that was directed towards me, i wasnt directing anything towards youQuote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
[q=Sasquatch]
Affirmative Action causes resentment, that's obvious enough. If I own a place and it's my responsibility to hire people, and black people want to form organizations that force Affirmative Action on me--meaning, force me to hire possibly less-qualified applicants because they're a different color--then I will learn not to like black people. If I see every day and have to think "man, if that guy were white, he would have been fired months ago, but since he's black, we can't do anything to him, and he knows that", then I'd start resenting black people. And when the Affirmative Action program ended, for a short time, I probably wouldn't hire any black people, unless I found one outstanding applicant. If I was forced to spend years hiring often less-qualified people because they were black, then I would spend a little while not hiring any black people at all. It's like when you're forced to eat hot dogs for a couple weeks straight, then get a choice, do you go back to hot dogs right away?
[/q]
Thats bull. And thats a cop out. These people would not hire black people period. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are forced to. The hated black people before that. Why is it so hard for you to understand that? Thats the way some of these people are raised, and, alot of america is like that, weather you realize it or not.
Thats bullQuote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
its because they are racist. Why would you even try and justify someone saying that. Jeez, its like your trying so hard to deny racism exist! it almost defies logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
Well, i dont have a say on this one either way. Ive never heard of any player saying that, so as far as i know, you just made that up unless you can show me some evidence to an accually player saying that. But who cares.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
So responding by quotes and saying "that's bull
Why is it so hard for you to understand that not everybody in America hates black people? I am far from hating black people, but if I had to work every day around unqualified black people who got their jobs because of their skin color, when I know better qualified white people who tried to get those jobs but couldn't because they were white, yes, I would learn to resent black people. And many other people would do the same. I've been through a lot of America, I've lived in the north and in the South, and I know better than to think America is racist. Apparently you don't.
When did I say I think all black people are given what they have? I've said many times that some black people are normal, decent people--probably the majority--who work for what they have and deserve to be where they are. I've said that THOSE people are made to look bad by the other section of their race, the groups of black people that think they should be given something because they're black. As I've said before, it casts a shadow of doubt upon everything a black person has worked for.
Your smartass comment about the "bio" engineer was quite lame and inaccurate. You wouldn't be hired off the street for a job like that, but you may be promoted faster, or accepted with less qualifications.
That was DMKA's comment that I was replying to, and you wouldn't know anything about it unless DMKA specifically told you. I don't know if HE knows their motivation behind such comments. As I've already said, if I had to hire a bunch of black people that weren't qualified, and watch them every day when I knew other people would do better, and learned to associate that with the race, I would resent and not hire any black people for a little while either. I can perfectly understand somebody that's learned to resent people saying that if it weren't for Affirmative Action, they wouldn't have any black people working for them, or if Affirmative Action stopped, they would fire all their black people.
And you've never heard of the NBA being accused of racism? Let's see.
http://www.workers.org/ww/2004/nba1209.php
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2035132
http://www.freep.com/sports/basketba...7_20020607.htm
http://soapboxsports.blogspot.com/
Is that good enough?
Charles Barkley -- "We can't blame everything on white people."
Here's one you'll like. Like other professional sports leagues dominated by players of color, the NBA is run like a modern-day slave plantation.
Once again my non reading friend. I never said all of america hates black people. Stop putting words in my mouth. So technically i should be able to bitch and moan about white people who arent as qualified to work jobs but steadly get promoted over top of black employees who work harder and get less noticed. Cause that happens a whole lot more than blacks getting jobs and not being qualified for them. Also, if you lived in so many places as you claim, you would know that alot of places in america are racist. You just dont want to admit it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SasquatchSo responding by quotes and saying "that's bull
Why is it so hard for you to understand that not everybody in America hates black people? I am far from hating black people, but if I had to work every day around unqualified black people who got their jobs because of their skin color, when I know better qualified white people who tried to get those jobs but couldn't because they were white, yes, I would learn to resent black people. And many other people would do the same. I've been through a lot of America, I've lived in the north and in the South, and I know better than to think America is racist. Apparently you don't.
[q=Sasquatch]
When did I say I think all black people are given what they have? I've said many times that some black people are normal, decent people--probably the majority--who work for what they have and deserve to be where they are. I've said that THOSE people are made to look bad by the other section of their race, the groups of black people that think they should be given something because they're black. As I've said before, it casts a shadow of doubt upon everything a black person has worked for.[/q]
By your reasoning, if i were to say, "White people for the most part are racist", it would be safe to say that because There are people who are racist towards blacks and they cast a shadow of a doubt on all white people weather they are racist or not.
[q=Sasquatch]Your smartass comment about the "bio" engineer was quite lame and inaccurate. You wouldn't be hired off the street for a job like that, but you may be promoted faster, or accepted with less qualifications.[/q]
The saddest part is you accually believe the bull
[q=Sasquatch]That was DMKA's comment that I was replying to, and you wouldn't know anything about it unless DMKA specifically told you. I don't know if HE knows their motivation behind such comments. As I've already said, if I had to hire a bunch of black people that weren't qualified, and watch them every day when I knew other people would do better, and learned to associate that with the race, I would resent and not hire any black people for a little while either. I can perfectly understand somebody that's learned to resent people saying that if it weren't for Affirmative Action, they wouldn't have any black people working for them, or if Affirmative Action stopped, they would fire all their black people.[/q]
A racist comment, is a racist comment. Why try and make an excuse for it. You were trying to give a racist bastard a way out by making it seem reasonable that he should be so racist and make comments like that. Which shows in some way, you must agree with it. You probly wouldn't hire black folks either if you didnt have too. You already think all of us have no qualifications.
[q=Sasquatch]
And you've never heard of the NBA being accused of racism? Let's see.
http://www.workers.org/ww/2004/nba1209.php
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2035132
http://www.freep.com/sports/basketba...7_20020607.htm
http://soapboxsports.blogspot.com/
Is that good enough?
Charles Barkley -- "We can't blame everything on white people."
Here's one you'll like. Like other professional sports leagues dominated by players of color, the NBA is run like a modern-day slave plantation.[/Q]
Well, like i said, i never had read anything, but the sites were accually interesting. I dont normally follow sports news like that.
We're have you been in this world?Thats all colleges think about dude is money.Its a business.They want money and they need it.If your rich in this country you can get into any college you want to no matter what your grades are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquatch
Now iwh toyu rother stuff i'll have to disagree with you.There are too many real life factors and to tell me i get a free rid ewith everything is dumb how do i get a free ride?"because I don't have to work for it" oh i didn't realise i get it so easy.I'll leave it to that to build up some suspension.
College is a buisness now? O_o *only read first and LB's posts*
Well i think its only true for certain races like black people who get an upper hand(like omg did you give me that D because i am black? I KNOW YOU DID! -_-). Chinese people, even though the Chinese Exclusion Act back at the early 20th century, are not treated any better, at least around where i live. In fact we are treated even worst because we work harder in general than most people and they just dont like us for that :rolleyes2 Its the stereotype that we work hard and get lower pay than someone who works (or lazys around) less and gets promoted that much faster just because that person is of another race. I seen some of it happen and its kinda sad =/ This new guy gets promoted to the top in a week tops because he is black and the boss is black and all he does is lazy around. While my asian uncle just sits there with the same semi-low pay job for 16 years of hard work(and i seen him stay up long to work too).
America is PLENTY racist, and not to single people out but it seems that around here, the white are more primarily racist and its just sickening, its just masked under alot of stuff that would seem normal to just about everyone unless you are actually working there. It sure feels nice to hear a meeting where this white guy says to everyone else (mostly whites and blacks there in the high positions with a few spanish to appease them) in there that "THERES TOO MANY CHINESE or *insert asian thing here* " Just because one chinese person was elected to be an Assessor there. Now she resigned because of all the attacks there, the SF Chronicles dont help since its always against asian and chinese people (its true, you dont see the hate unless you actually deal with them) along with other magazines. The asian assessor just cannot deal with all the attacks against her because she was elected and resigned, and now my uncle just does not know what to do when a new (probably white or black) boss appears to take her place like they wanted to. I just know that he can easily be fired for the most littlest of things because he was a heavy supporter for the previous asian assesor(i think she is the only one so far even to be elected, most dont even bother running because of the people against them).
But in any case...affirmative action i feel it should be more on immigrants only...those born here i feel no matter the race...needs no more benefits and yes that includes me and most people i know =/