africa

soon my country will hold th g8 summit. the most powerful men in the world from the richest country will met at a five star hotel on one of the world's greatest golf courses to talk about the starving of millions.

for those who don't know every 3 seconds a person will die of starvation. that's 30,000 a day. that's 4x times more than people live in my town. that's 11 million a year.

africa is in 300 billion dollars of debt and people are dying for this.

the original debt has originally been paid of and more so. nigeria for example had a debt of 5 billion. and has no paid of 16 billion. it still owes 36 billion. nigerian people die daily of hunger while our banks still demand money.

people claim that this money is owed and needs to be paid back. well it's paid back and people are starving.

the cost of reliefing all debt and rebuidling africa is miniscual. but the change it would make is enormous.

this week korean scientists created a stem cell embreyo, it was said this could save countless lives. the cost of this research was millions of dollars.

people are dying in africa not for lack of stem cell research but because the cannot eat or drink.

i know i made this point in another thread but it was off topic and a bit of a ramble so i decided to create this.

please discuss the suffering of millions and the irony of having it's discussion in 5 star accomadation, on a golf course with 100 million pounds worth of security to discuss how debt that kills millions should be worked.

Tony Blair was right when he said that the state of Africa is a 'scar on the conscience of the Western world'.

Are you freaking serious? Sorry, I admit I live under a rock, so go ahead and consider me ignorant, especially on issues like this. But they're going to have a conference in a country club setting? Please tell me they're at least going to tour the ravaged lands and get a feel for the people's plight. Otherwise that's just rediculous. I'm sorry I had no idea what your country/continent is really going through and I can't do much to help. But you have my sympathy and condolences

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Yes. Everybody around the world that starving, it's happening because they're expected to pay back money they owe. Money that was given and loaned to them so that they could help themselves, so they wouldn't continually get poorer and poorer. Money that should have been used to build schools, offices, and more-or-less civilized settings instead of supporting militaries to raid neighboring countries.

It's all the rich countries' fault for wanting a small portion of our money back.

Corrupt bureaucracy, unfair trade and sheer greed , that's the real root of the problem.

well it;s not my country or continent. i live in scotland which is a few thousand miles away froma ny starving africa.

sasquatch if you were polite enough to read the post. africa's debt has been paid of. so the argument that "they owe us money so we should starve them is invalid" they debt has been paid 3 times over. but still more is expected. twice as much as the three times more already paid to be precise.

so it's not a small proportion of the money back. it's greedy profit.

find me a credit card which asks for 3500% interest.

the debt is repaid but we still watch millions starve.

i for one will be marching on gleneagles.

The European Union today agreed to step up their spending toward sending more money to the countries most in need, but this is only a small step.

Other countries, the US, Canada, and Japan specifically, need to step up to the promises that were made in 2000 about the money that would be donated.

Yet, other issues that must be addressed include setting up a stable economic system for the African nations, and allowing their market to grow by reducing tariffs. Otherwise, the deck is stacked far too greatly against them, something no amount of money or donations can really remedy.

What really needs to be done is for all the major businesses of the world to realize that they have so much more to gain by strengthening the economy in Africa. While the short term losses may turn some people off, the long term ability of a more global market will actually strengthen most of these businesses.

Take care all.

but this really shouldn't be about what we can make out of africa.

it shouldn't be about business, profit, what's owed to who.

it is about the starvation of millions. about stopping the deaths of tens of thousands a people a day.

there shouldn't be a question of what anyone can make out of it. or who loses.

has humanity really became so iron-hearted that when thousands of people die all e think is "it would lose us money if we stopped charging them"

I agree with you entirely, but sadly, to be realistic, you have to try to fix Africa from a standpoint devoid of moralism to actually get progress. We live in a world of capitalism, where everything DOES revolve around money, and when people are comfortable, they don't feel the need to make changes. Sure, they can have the token sympathy for others, but at the end of the day, the TV goes off and their lives, our lives, are still okay. To stem this tide, short of a miracle of epic proportions to greatly spur a change of opinion, a case has to be made to fix Africa that can benefit those who'd be undertaking this.

Right now, doing something because we owe it to them won't get you anywhere in the political world, or the law making world or the business world because all are ruthless places, where looking out for number one is the only rule. To make any of these groups truly care, you have to sadly make it worth their while to get involved.

There is no reason why Africa has been allowed to suffer for as long as it has. Nothing any sane person can rationalize can justify turning a blind eye to the death toll that Africa has suffered in the last 500 years. Yet somehow, it's never been solved and because money is a major factor in helping these people, business interests will become a primary motivator in pushing anything positive through.

I wish people would just get up and help fix Africa, but things have been horrible for hundreds of years now, even despite some of the most amazing survival and inspiring stories that have come out: Mandela and Desmond Tutu in South Africa to name one, and little real progress has been made from a global perspective to get involved.

Shame is a powerful tool, but for some reason, it just isn't strong enough anymore. To fix Africa, you have to go straight for the wallet. We've become a world where lives are marginalized by dollar signs, where so long as "I can feed my family, then who cares if millions are suffering and dying elsewhere?" With great effort, this mindset can be changed, but right now, mindsets should be secondary to actual progress and saving lives. Maybe, just maybe, if progress does get made, people's minds will change on their own. I have hope in that, but action has to be taken now to have any chance to salvage this situation and to allow for those of us who live right now freely and comfortably to truly not have any degree of shame in our lives.

Take care all.

so is the conclusion here really that western greed has destroed africa? and in fact rather than being the savious of the world capatlism is destroying africa?

Imperialism is what destroyed Africa to start off, as it caused people to divide against themselves and made conflicts over land that much harder to navigate because the entire continent was just carved up without any real rhyme or reason.

That being said, the death and destruction in Africa IS the fault of everyone right now because we are well aware of what is happening, yet have been so slow to react that or not react at all. Allowing genocides to happen without really making the effort to stop it, allowing supplies to be taken by the brutal dictators and not given to the people, allowing ourselves to turn a blind eye to the AIDS problem that is still running rampant, these are all the sins of everyone because we all should by all accounts be in there helping, yet our interests lay elsewhere for whatever reason, and no matter how you justify it, we're still allowing millions to die needlessly.

Capitalism, more than anything else, is the ultimate double edged sword. If Africa can be preserved, than Capitalism can help the entire continent get back on its feet, but there needs to be a plan put into place that isn't so cut and dry, but one that will actually allow for the balance to be equal.

Groups such as DATA are working hard to find ways to help Africa, but for the longest time its been the elephant in the room, and soon that elephant will disappear and we'll have only ourselves to blame ultimately because we have the capability to at least try doing something yet don't.

If I had to pin the blame on anything, I'd put it on apathy, moreso than anything else.

Take care all.

isn't greed in these companies and banks though the driving force for their apathy? the debt is at best an unnessecary evil. it's not longer about debt or what is owed. it is pure greed and profit. surely this is a driving force for their apathy?

That might be part of the equation, but apathy also comes from a degree of comfort in that we become comfortable with accepting the world as it is and either decide that we can't change things or that we don't want to for whatever reason.

I fear that another potential reason is the sheer amount of work it would take, which many people, especially those in power, never seem willing to undertake, which on some levels might be understandable, since immediate results are not a given. Yet, as citizens of the world, I think in the end, doing something, getting our hands dirty even if we don't change things right away is so much better than doing nothing or just assuming that nothing can be done.

Take care all.

There have been some things going on recently that have opened my eyes to how much the mainstream media blinds us of the real atrocities of the world, and this is just another example of it.

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Originally Posted by The Captain

Sure, they can have the token sympathy for others, but at the end of the day, the TV goes off and their lives, our lives, are still okay.

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This sums it up the best. I don't see how anyone can feel like a good human being with stuff like this going on. The blood is on all of our hands.

African countrys are starving not through western greed or lack of resources but through mismangement, corruption and bad governments,
I cite rhodesia/zimbabwae as my example and rest my case.

zimbabwe is different from the majority of african countries like nigeria and ethiopia. they are genuinelt starving and the government is doing all they can with what money they can get. but considering more money cos into these loans than goes into helth and education combined it is hugely difficult to do anything.

and even if certain governments are corrupt is this reason to continue with illegitimate debt? to aid the deths of millions? why not drop it and stop the line of "it's not all our fault"?

First:
I never really liked it when the intrest on a loan makes you pay a total of 6+ (or more) times the original loan... that is just nuts. I understand getting back your money(and to get a little bit back, for your *generousity*).. but that is above and beyond.

Second:
Throwing money at things doesn't solve problems.. reform does. I am not the most knowledgable on these African Nations, but I would guess that even with more money they would not greatly improve. They need help, from the ground up.

Thrid:
The inability for most americans to wish to help people comes more from laziness and lack of knowledge then greed I'd say. It is too much work to build from the ground up. Also it is too much to make the extra money to send out. As for the lack of knowledge.. Well I have yet to hear about anything of the like you are talking about on the news.

starvation in africa isn't in the news and that's the problem. it is just an accepted fact nowadays that 30,000 people will starve to death as much as it is that the sun set will and rise. it's not considered news worthy because it's not new or chaning. it's just there like it has been for a long time and always will be until things change dramatically

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starvation in africa isn't in the news and that's the problem. it is just an accepted fact nowadays that 30,000 people will starve to death as much as it is that the sun set will and rise. it's not considered news worthy because it's not new or chaning.

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Exactly. It has become a norm.

Basically, Africa is stuck in the stone age, with the rest of the world at the modern (or post-modern) age, and still, Africa has modern technology, which it fails to implement, due to stone age mentallity.

Nothing will change in Africa in the near or even far future, the way I see it. The people there have simply not evolved cuturally enough to hold themselves in a fast-changing world, as it is today. They cannot grow food like they did 25,000 years ago, to support a population of hundreds of millions. They wage wars in the frequency and brutallity of 5,000 years ago, but with the efficiency of modern weapons, which leads to mass killing.

It's the third world. Various conditions, most of which were not caused by the intervention of first world countries, have led to a situation where cultural evolution has halted in these areas, and they now progress no-where, with things happening like they did thousands of years ago, only on a completely different setting. Eons ago, starvation was something that could and was likely to happen, every once in a while, as was the deal with wars. Only, there weren't as many people, a and the weapons or methods of war weren't as effective.

Stone age mentallity on a modern setting leads to nothing but death and agony.

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and still, Africa has modern technology, which it fails to implement, due to stone age mentallity.

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Could Africa accomplish this even if they tried? Somehow, I doubt it.

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Nothing will change in Africa in the near or even far future, the way I see it. The people there have simply not evolved cuturally enough to hold themselves in a fast-changing world, as it is today. They cannot grow food like they did 25,000 years ago, to support a population of hundreds of millions. They wage wars in the frequency and brutallity of 5,000 years ago, but with the efficiency of modern weapons, which leads to mass killing.

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You can blame the imperialist colonies for this.

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It's the third world. Various conditions, most of which were not caused by the intervention of first world countries

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Africa would not be what it is today if it wasn't for imperialism in the past. One of the main reasons they have the stupid wars they do is because of the hostility between different subgroups of africans that was intentionally inspired by the europeans. Why would they do this? Well, it's simple. If you have people at each others throats all the time, it's easier to control them, and steal thier resources.

Also, the country of Africa has constantly been raped, and thier resources have been stolen by the europeans. The reason Africa is the way it is today is due to the European imperialist colonies. They are, in part, to blame for everything that goes on in Africa.

The conditions in Africain countries are atrocious. Part of the fault is when they received loans they needed to pay the interest, and for them to get the loan the conditions basically paralyzed funding for schools, and other institutions (Or at least that what I remember hearing). Also corruption within their own governments lead to where it is now. I remeber doing the 30 Hour Famine and we would watch these videos andto look at the conditions was just shocking. I woul dlike to comment on the HIV problem too, cuz they need the research and information about HIV and AIDS. There are now many africains with AIDS for they aquire it from their parents. Right now in the world there is enough food to feed everyone, it is sad that it is not being put into use so that they could end starvation.

I know this will sound cruel, but here is a hint of reality. 20% of the world population owns 80% of the Wealth and makes 80% of the pollution. Obviously the 20% is the population of Developped countries. If the birth rate increase as it is, in the near future it was caculated the Earth will not be able to support life. Also if other countries develop, that means more pollution. What effect will that have on our ecosystems?
It is kinda scary to think about it this way.

what has also led to alot of problems in africa is anoher western caused problem.

it's the map. before africa had no map. it had lots of tribes with their own territory and systems. when we invaded this was far too complicated so we created countries. ever noticed that alot of the maps of africa have nice straight borders? because they were just drawn up without care of who lived in what country like western countries are (see the expansion of germany pre 1939 to see what happens when you start mucking around with borders and splitting up people) so then by drawing up these nice random borders you had two tribes that hated each other in the same country. so the easiest way to make peace? genocide. a nice lovely war and purging of the people normally solves alot of differences.

so not only did this make africa a bit of a mess. but these countries took out nice fat loans to do this nasty deed (thanks to the helping hand of the world bank and IMF those jolly caring chaps)

which brings us back to why not just drop the debt?

They do not drop the debt cuz, there are laws and we cannot exclude anyone from a law, for it would make laws inherently pointless. But there should be reforms to the loan systems, these reforms should make a country able to pay back their loans, and interestr without crippling the country.

Yeah it is pretty sad that the genocide happened in Rwanda and the UN did very little to stop it. There were even very few peacekeepers sent, I think only 83....I can't remember if that was the total amoun tof peace keepers sent, or of Canadian peacekeepers sent. It is still sad anyways.

actually the debt if it was any other type of scenario would be conuted as illegitimate debt (legal term) and no court in the land wold up hold it.

and are we saying that this law which is killing millions of people a year cannot be broken for the sake of humanity?

No, I am not a cruel person. But laws are laws and need to be kepted in order, though I do have to say that their needs to be amendments to them, so that it will prevent terrible things from happening. We should use past knowledge to prevent the atrocities that already happened, not let them endure.

MSF folks getting arrested because of a report that talks about 500 rape victims that got treatment from them in a span of 4-6 months in Darfur (Sudan)

report: http://www.artsenzondergrenzen.nl/us...rch%202005.pdf

msf article about this(don't know if this link works): http://www.msf.org/countries/page.cf...A5EEA548F734F4

just a news-famous tidbit of how well things are going (aka not well at all)


a scenario that would be great:
"hey guys, forget the debt. know what? i'll send you some money, do whatever you want with it if as long as it helps your country get better so not really anything you want, but anyway, here's some money, and hey, have some manpower to rebuild and restructure cuz it's not liek we need it to fight a war or anything."

but oops
i wonder how many world leaders that don't live in africa can name all african countries without mapquest

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

sasquatch if you were polite enough to read the post. africa's debt has been paid of. so the argument that "they owe us money so we should starve them is invalid" they debt has been paid 3 times over. but still more is expected. twice as much as the three times more already paid to be precise.

so it's not a small proportion of the money back. it's greedy profit.

find me a credit card which asks for 3500% interest.

the debt is repaid but we still watch millions starve.

i for one will be marching on gleneagles.

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That, quite simply, is a crock of bull. You pull up a legitimate source for any of this you're spouting, and you might get a bit of respect. You can take your time pulling a source out of your ass, but with such outrageous and asenine claims as these, I would think the average person would be smart enough to at least find something to back them up.

Not to mention--how is anybody forcing them to pay us back? How many troops have we sent to collect debts?

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Not to mention--how is anybody forcing them to pay us back? How many troops have we sent to collect debts?

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No one is forcing them. Yet as they stand idle not paying their debts the interest increases. For that reason they probably wish to repay the debt ASAP.

quotes regarding the figues i gave you (i worked out the interest wrong it is only infact 960%.)

and for sasquatch here are a few links since he so poltiely (cough) asked.

http://www.theperspective.org/2004/d...anleaders.html
http://www.africaaction.org/action/debt2003.htm
http://www.uua.org/uuawo/new/article.php?id=244
http://www.amsa.org/global/HPSAAN_Fo...ppt#266,16,The HIV/AIDS Crisis (powerpoint)

all cover the level of debt nigeria is suffering. which is the one i pointed out.

so yes these claims were outrageous. but true. it is outrageous in a world of plenty people are dying on such a horrific scale. no argument can possibly justify 30,000 deaths a day.