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I wonder what this country (the U.S.A.) is coming to sometimes. At school, students are regularly denied basic constitutional rights. We get punished if we speak our thoughts (if they do not conform to the school's ideals) and we are constantly ordered around. Yet in the U.S. Constitution the Freedoms of Speech, to express your ideas, and many others are CLEARLY granted to all U.S. citizens. So the question arises: are minors not citizens, or even people?
Minors don't have all the rights that adults have, but you'll have those rights when you are an adult, because you will become one. Sometimes I do think schools limit students' voices a little too far, I'll agree with you there...but I mean, marriage and voting are citizenship rights too, and minors don't have those for obvious reasons.
They are indeed people, but not fully-fledged citizens. Also, please note that every right has its limits, and no right is infinite or irevocable.Quote:
are minors not citizens, or even people?
alrights should be irevocable should they not?
has the lesson not been learnt that revoking rights is possibly not a great idea?
Rights are always given, and therefore can be revoked.Quote:
alrights should be irevocable should they not?
No, those are priviledges.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Angel
What rights are being denied? Even freedom of speech has limitations. Especially when it interrupts everyone's right to learn in school.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unknown Guru
Also, you will find yourself being ordered around to a much greater extent when you get a real job.
Jobs are not mandatory. If you do not show up for work there will not be a man at your door ready to bring you there, forceful if deemed necesary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glendon
Thing about adults is, there are more orders that they can decide not to follow. Kids go to school, do their homework, go to bed. No say in the matter. An adult can have any lifestyle in the millions of different choices there are. The bottom line though...there is no other way to do it that works this well.
Wow, the world has changed drastically in the last 3 years then.Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteyPies
Most parents give maybe 2-4 hours a day back, but 2-4 out of the 24 hours in a day is sad :(Quote:
Originally Posted by DMKA
If that's so horrible they can have themselves emancipated, and then go out and live on their own on whatever money they can make without an education.Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteyPies
i sometimes think we'd be better off living in japan.
because of the congress, u know? :)
Yes, they are. F--- what my brother, Maddox,*or anyone else says.
*-I know I probably made a few s---lists, but that's how I feel.
I wouldnt necessarily say that freedom of speech rights are totally removed more when you are in highschool, (comming from a student who attends a private school) but in Elementry school, can we safely say that a child does not have the logic or skills to comprehend with certain situations, and can we safely say that the consequences of a childs act are not as sever as to an adult? Thus, removing certain rights must be necessary
Plus, youre not a full citizen until you are a full adult, 18
All of which have their specific restrictions and rules that you must abide whether you like it or not. One can quit a job because of being ordered around, but will get another with the same environment. Even myself, who draws income independantly, must conform to my client's wishes.Quote:
Originally Posted by TasteyPies
Minors have to follow simple rules like brushing their teeth and going to school. These pale in comparison to the rules, laws, restrictions etc. that an adult must follow irregardless of what they would prefer to do. If a minor has a problem with being told to take a bath, then I hope they can deal with being crushed by the weight of the world when they discover the sheer number of responsibilities in adulthood.
bah the consequences of kids are starting to get worse.You heara bout how this one kid's mother put a knife(a butter one)in her son's lunch bag on accident and the kid gets kicked out of school I mean wtf?That is crap.If you cuss out a teacher in kansas you go striaght to jail for two weeks and once that happens you get treated like crap.And adult can cuss out a teacher without going to jail.They might get sued but they won't goto jail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey3
But kids don;t fully understand the world yet which I am glad the surpeme court actually made an ammendment that mattered.YOu know the one were its illegal to trial a minor as an adult...Thats some good relief especially if a 9 year old child was gonna be trialed as a adult and put into a prison to get passed around.
Let's look at what happens if kids are given full, unrestricted access to the basic human rights, either in the US Consitution or the international treaties like the ICCPR. In particular, let's see what happens if those rights are abused by school pupils:
Freedom of association: Kids are allowed to bring their KKK or neo-nazi skinhead uncle to school for company.
Freedom of expression: Kids get to write essays and projects that are full of profane and pornographic content, and the school can do nothing to stop them. Similarly, at any time during class, a kid can stand up and start yelling verses from the Satantic Bible.
Freedom of movement: They can just stroll away from school whenever they want, thereby getting no education and no discipline.
Freedom of thought and opinion: Kids already have this. Schools can't censor what you think, only what you express. It's the same as the adult world.
Right to bear arms: More innocent kids get slaughtered. This happens too often already, with 10 American children getting shot dead every day.
Freedom from arbitrary arrest or detention: Schools need a specific law entitling them to impose detention on troublemakers, and kids have the right to appeal their detention through the courts.
Right of peaceful assembly: Kids can get together for a meeting with each other in the middle of class.
To put it simply... if you give children the same rights and freedoms, to the same extent that adults have them, then you end up with an entire generation that is both uneducated and undisciplined. In order to teach, schools need the power to force certain behaviour from their pupils.
Kids lack the ability to fully comprehend the consequences of their actions. They have an inflamed sense of self importance, and a need to rebel in order to help them develop a sense of self. Not having all of the right of adults may suck, and often times adults ignore students entirely where they should at least listen to them, but I fit's better now than it would be if we really allowed children these "rights" when they are in school.
I say again - no right is naturally given, and no right cannot be taken away. The right for life can be taken away by a killer, the right for respect can be taken away by someone humiliating you, the right for education can be taken away easily, etc... if you don't have enough power to defend your rights, or someone else that will do it for you (i.e, soldiers, lawyers, etc), then your 'rights' aren't worth much.Quote:
No, those are priviledges.
First, could I have some proof of that statistic?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D
Second, I'd take issue with that theory. Would all those kids doing the killing be as ready to if they knew it was possible their target was armed?
In general, though, I find it very distasteful that kids have to be forced to do stuff, but a necessity nonetheless. My problem isn't that kids are expected to be reasonably calm and controlled in school, but more than schools often greatly overstep the boundaries (Uniforms, excessive amounts of homework, making kids get up at an unhealthily early time, and so forth.) and kids are ignored when they complain. What do kids know, right?
I find the opposite to be true. All rights are naturally existing, and only through an 'unnatural' (It's not the best polar dynamic, because killing is natural, but you know what I'm getting at.) means can those rights be taken away.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Angel
Whatever, it still doesn't change the fact rights can be taken away. In the wild, no creature has 'rights'. There's only survival. Therefore, no right is natural, only the ability to defend yourself through society and your own means.Quote:
I find the opposite to be true. All rights are naturally existing, and only through an 'unnatural' (It's not the best polar dynamic, because killing is natural, but you know what I'm getting at.) means can those rights be taken away.
About the butter knife, I heard about a kid who brought NAIL CLIPPERS to school and got expelled. Also, thx for telling me about the "you become a citizen at 18" thing, I didnt know that. And all you people who say kids dont understand the consequences, i agree. I am talking about (usually) mentally mature middle/high schoolers. And, um, Big D, I think that is exaggerating it a bit too much... I mean, any parent with brains would'nt keep a lethal weapon in reach of their kids. Plus, how many people do YOU know with a KKK uncle?
Sorry for causing all the controversy, every1 :(
That's one of the differences in what is considered a right in the US or in Europe (and I suppose Israel, then): roughly, in the USA, the rights are here before there is a form of government, laws, etc..., and people choose to give up some of their rights or limit them. In Europe on the other hand, people have given up all their individual rights, and the government (in the wide sense of the term) gives people various rights, and can take them away.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Angel
*agrees with Shlup*
What is a 'right'? Something that a government (i.e. a body or group of people; i.e. other people) can distribute? Of course not. All rights are natural and individual. And they all stem from one right - the right to his own life. Which means that a man is able to take all actions necessary to preserve, enjoy and fulfill his life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless
If a person screams that no rights are natural and that they do not exist unless "society" (*cringe*) tells them otherwise, they are stating one of two things. Either they view reality as grim and depressing and seek to hide from it ("How do you know anything?/How can we be anything worthwhile?"), or they really do fundamentally believe in tribalism and gang warfare. That is, that they think that everything is a handout rather than earned.
Do minors lose "rights"? Not fundamental, natural rights. However, certain controls are placed on them in order for them to understand better the world. It's not done correctly, however. Children are not asked to speak their minds, to learn about the world; they are bound by traditions and church-driven thought. However, just as a man can't teach himself to be taught, so too can a minor not be a functioning member of society unless he learns the rules of living in a society (which is not established by society, but rather, by reality).
I agree with that but laws such as a student cussing out a teacher landshim a spot in juvy is really really dumb.And if does draw a picture that kids need laws like this to help them get better which isn't true at all that law is crap.