Printable View
I have a question that I'll probably come up with an answer to once I put it in writing but anyway; Why did Sephiroth wait till Aeris had finished praying to Holy to kill her? I get the feeling he could have killed her anytime he wanted to. Have I missed something here?
It was a tactical error that occurred as a result of hubris. He wanted to make Cloud suffer by forcing him to kill Aerith. He was pissed at Cloud for beating him in Nibelheim five years before, apparently, and it was too heavy a blow to his pride for him not to torture Cloud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Destai
To his surprise, Cloud resisted smashing Aerith beneath the Buster Sword, and he had to step in to kill Aerith himself, only for it to be too late.
He was late.
You know.
Late.
If it had happened to you, you would've been a little absent-minded.
And here I am, chiming in with the obligatory note that it was not in fact Sephiroth who killed Aeris at all, since he was currently encased in materia in the Northern Crater. Most likely, it was the shapeshifter Jenova, who chose to assume the form she knew would most strongly resonate with Cloud, although there are indeed alternate theories about who, exactly, it is that is responsible for Aeris' death.
Yeah I get it now, thanks. I only remembered now that Holy wasnt totally succesful once it finally was summoned so it wasnt any loss for Sephiroth to take his time killing her. Getting revenge on Cloud makes alot of sense. Thanks for clearing that up. And now I know what Hubris means. Hurray.Im pretty sure it was Sephiroth in control even do I agree with the belief that his real body was in the northern crater. Personally I think it was Sephiroth who killed her with Jenovas power.Quote:
And here I am, chiming in with the obligatory note that it was not in fact Sephiroth who killed Aeris at all, since he was currently encased in materia in the Northern Crater. Most likely, it was the shapeshifter Jenova, who chose to assume the form she knew would most strongly resonate with Cloud, although there are indeed alternate theories about who, exactly, it is that is responsible for Aeris' death.
I personally don't think Sephiroth was that powerful (to control Jenova). Geez, you never even see him again (after the Promised Land scene) until you reach the bottom of that crater.
But you know, that would be interesting. Sephiroth's supposed "control" over Jenova makes it seem like more of a tool to him than his supposed "mother." Makes him seem like that much more of a psycho.
You enjoy doing this, don't you. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by The Man
yes, I do. ;)
And I'm a lot more inclined to believe that it's Jenova who's controlling Sephiroth. She certainly spends a good chunk of the game misleading him (you know, the whole Freudian "mother" thing), and usually the one doing the deceiving is the puppet master in these things. I really don't see any evidence in the game to believe that Sephiroth is inherently evil. Just terribly mislead.
Well regardless of who is in control, it still could have been a desire of Sephiroth to make Cloud suffer, and JENOVA's actions could have reflected that.
Personally, I think that Sephiroth was more or less acting as the embodiment of JENOVA's will. In other words, what became his objective had been JENOVA's and was a plot more or less conceived by JENOVA, but carried out through Sephiroth, who was also conscious and acting, but based on a plot devised by JENOVA and given to him.
Certain things simply had to have been Sephiroth conscious and taking action, most notably all the work put into torturing Cloud. JENOVA would have had no reason to torture him so. Sephiroth's pride being hurt by Cloud when he beat him gave him plenty of reason to torture Cloud.
Cloud was being called to the Reunion the same as the other Sephiroth Clones, but getting him to follow hardly required rendering mental torment upon him. All that would have been necessary would be overriding his will completely and dragging him there, or showing him the image of Sephiroth on the horizon every once in a while. The entity tormenting him, however, obviously wanted him to suffer.
I believe Sephiroth continued to remain an independent entity until he and JENOVA merged at the end of the game (the process beginning in the Bizarro Sephiroth battle, in which we can see the two merging) and at that point, I feel that JENOVA's consciousness was taking over altogether, which would explain why the Sephiroth we see there said nothing, whereas the Sephiroth forms seen earlier wouldn't shut up.
Anyway, here's some thorough explanations of my views and why I hold them:
http://www.geocities.com/ff7analysis/control.html
http://www.geocities.com/ff7analysis/Symbolism.html
I don't really see much that appears to be a consciously thought out plan to torture Cloud, apart from Jenova's decision to assume Sephiroth's appearance. Then again, my memory of the last third or so of the game is rather hazy. For the most part, though, your assessment appears to be spot on.
Beginning at the Temple of the Ancients, Cloud's mind is entered and subverted upon occasion, even reducing him to babbling about getting the Black Materia and calling Meteor. Also, after he's forced to hand the Black Materia over, he's then forced to pound Aerith to a pulp and he has to be stopped by the other party members.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
Next, he's nearly forced to crush Aerith beneath the Buster Sword, and when he fights back, she's still killed right in front of him with there having been nothing he could do to stop it. He's then told that he's a puppet.
Next up, he's again told that he's a puppet, but this time he's led to also believe that he's not even a real person, but just a bit of JENOVA's Cells that had been infused with Mako and had taken on the form of an individual named "Cloud" based on someone from Tifa's memory. On top of that, he's told that he wasn't even a successful product of what Hojo was trying to accomplish with him.
He was lied to a lot, both by himself and Sephiroth, and he believed the lies. His mind is battered so greatly that he willingly hands over the Black Materia because he thinks it was his only purpose.
Thank you. Thanks for taking the time to look it over.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
wow, how just like me to completely forget that entire storyline. I always assumed that most of that was due to Jenova's meddling with his mind, though, but it's not clear how closely Jenova and Sephiroth worked in conjunction with each other. It would make sense for Sephiroth to still hold a grudge, but I always assumed the main reason Jenova had Cloud do all that was because it was expedient for her to do so. ;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD
I didn't entirely understand the timeline towards the end of the game with Cloud's recovery at all. I suppose I really do need to replay FF7 in less of a hurry so I can absorb it better.
Wow, this is like The Jetsons meets The Flintstones.
yeah I know, me being lectured about something FF related is like bizarro world eyes on final fantasy. I feel ashamed of myself.
I knows!, I knows! *raises hand*Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
it was sephiroth who killed her, not the real sephiroth, the one made by jenova to free jenova! and it seems that Sephiroth must have been busy trying to prepare jenova to attack cloud and the party, so thats why he was late at the attack, and because he tryed to make cloud kill her, but he felt to strongly for her to kill her.
It was Tifa getting jealous of him spending all the time with Aerith, she just dressed up in a big black cape and stole a spare sword!
No no, i think blackchocobo is closest, my theory is too complex for my simple mind to write down ^_^;
If I remember correctly the first part of the storyline when Sephiroth is condeming himself in the castle he pulls the weird robot thing {forgot it's name} that was guarding Jenova had a hologram of Sephiroth which we see later in the game and he {the holigram} wore a helmet that said Jenova so really Sephiroth got combined into one being with a conjuncting mind or it was Tifa in a very good cosplay costume. Also For the Sephiroth he thought he was his own mother I know that sounds crazy but maybes thats like a dream sequence except he thinks it's real and since he has such a strong spirit he could mentaly be at a diffrent dimension or he's really crazy.
thats right Jenova-Death says something to the effect of her being Sephiroth's body the whole time he was just the dude holding the game controler only he was incased in materia and couldnt move so that shoots the game controler ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by The Man
SK-ing someone in front of other someones, that's the way to do it. the Tenchu way is way more hilarious, and i don't enjoy Aeris dying. all in a guess, but it sure was an SK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Destai
That wasn't a hologram. JENOVA's body was inside that tube. Yes, it looks similar to Sephiroth, but that's to be expected considering the graphics of the game, and considering that JENOVA's Cells melded with Sephiroth's body when it was a developing fetus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakashi509
It took me a while but i read all of it and indeed it does seem you have convered everything there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD
He is too busy with other stuff like looking for a user manual onQuote:
Originally Posted by Destai
"Safety Handling Of The Black Materia"?
Ok, back to business. I guess he didn't realize that half ancient can actually pray for holy but it was too late when he realize it.
The more I know about the storyline, the less I understand. ç__ç
When I finish the game I'll go looking for a lot of explanations.
Squall of SeeD, you are very wise when it comes to FF7. So when Sephiroth doesn't recognize Cloud on the boat, does that mean that Jenova had more control at that time or what is going on exactly? I know my question isn't too clear so if you want me to rephrase it I will be happy to.
Thanks for the compliment, Seph. Basically, it just means that it was JENOVA's body from the Shin-Ra headquarters in Sephiroth's form, and -- being that it was JENOVA and not actually Sephiroth -- it didn't know who the hell he was, though Sephiroth did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephitachi7
If there's anything else you're wondering about, feel free to ask. I'll do my best to answer accurately.
Oh ok now it's clear to me. Thanks alot bro. By the way your analysis pages are great I have a little more to read, but so far it's great. Thanks for all the info.
there's a problem with your theory
If the Jenova on the boat was in Sephiroth's form then what the hell did we fight because I remeber seeing Sephiroth fly off (like he will through the rest of the game) and at that same moment he drops Jenova's arm? (I think) then we fight Jenova-Birth. that just dosn't make any sense
JENOVA is assuming Sephiroth's form, hence why peices of JENOVA are dropped and why the creature you fight is always JENOVA and never Sephiroth.
also, killing Aeris after she casts holy is the only way she could be ressurrected
through the lifestream of course.
OMG... please don't start.