Senators imply that draft is a certainty

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Sen. John McCain, interviewed on CBS's "The Early Show," maintained that "one of the very big mistakes early on was that he didn't have enough troops on the ground, particularly after the initial victory, and that's still the case."

Sen. John Kerry, Bush's Democratic opponent in last year's presidential election, told NBC's "Today" show that the borders of Iraq "are porous" and said "we don't have enough troops" there.

Sen. Joseph Biden Jr., appearing on ABC's "Good Morning America," disputed Bush's notion that sufficient troops are in place.

"I'm going to send him the phone numbers of the very generals and flag officers that I met on Memorial Day when I was in Iraq," the Delaware Democrat said. "There's not enough force on the ground now to mount a real counterinsurgency."

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Read the full article here.

We're smurfed.

I will not cooperate.

I already registered for the draft a year in advance. But i just joined the service so im not eligable. And anyone who doesnt want to go to war, but still wants to live in the US and enjoy their freedoms, i hope they go to jail for turning their back on their country when it needs them.

*shoots self*

Im actually really curious if the draft comes in, will women be apart of it?

How much would a 1-way ticket to Canada/Japan be?

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Originally Posted by CloudSquallandZidane

I already registered for the draft a year in advance. But i just joined the service so im not eligable. And anyone who doesnt want to go to war, but still wants to live in the US and enjoy their freedoms, i hope they go to jail for turning their back on their country when it needs them.

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Tell you what. When the country does *need* me, and I don't mean to clean up a mess that our retarded elected officials made in the middle east before I was born and before I was old enough to vote, then I'll consider fighting for it. Until then, if they even try to draft me, I'll be out of this country in less than a day. I'll even send Bush a signed note that reads "See you in hell."

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Originally Posted by Super Christ

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Originally Posted by CloudSquallandZidane

I already registered for the draft a year in advance. But i just joined the service so im not eligable. And anyone who doesnt want to go to war, but still wants to live in the US and enjoy their freedoms, i hope they go to jail for turning their back on their country when it needs them.

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Tell you what. When the country does *need* me, and I don't mean to clean up a mess that our retarded elected officials made in the middle east before I was born and before I was old enough to vote, then I'll consider fighting for it. Until then, if they even try to draft me, I'll be out of this country in less than a day. I'll even send Bush a signed note that reads "See you in hell."

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With this kind of idealogy, and you and SomethingBig being a sample of the eligible drafte population, I wonder what the ratio is of draft dodges or the amount of people leaving the US because of the draft would be

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Originally Posted by Hawkeye

*shoots self*

Im actually really curious if the draft comes in, will women be apart of it?

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I believe they will, although to my knowledge, women are still excluded from combat situations. I could be wrong on all counts.

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Originally Posted by Super Christ

Tell you what. When the country does *need* me, and I don't mean to clean up a mess that our retarded elected officials made in the middle east before I was born and before I was old enough to vote, then I'll consider fighting for it. Until then, if they even try to draft me, I'll be out of this country in less than a day. I'll even send Bush a signed note that reads "See you in hell."

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My sentiments precisely. I never supported this war, and it sure as :skull::skull::skull::skull: hasn't done anything to make America safer, so there's no way I'm going to fight in it.

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Originally Posted by Hawkeye

With this kind of idealogy, and you and SomethingBig being a sample of the eligible drafte population, I wonder what the ratio is of draft dodges or the amount of people leaving the US because of the draft would be

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I suspect the US would lose a sizable amount of its population if the draft went into effect. Unfortunately, there will undoubtedly be a large number of people who want to evade the draft but don't have the economic means to do so, which means that poverty will only become an increasing problem in America in the future. Ironically, that might end up forcing more discussion about the issue, and thereby enable a better solution than what's being done right now (basically, nothing).

I certainly hope it'll be a high number. Then the next president that considers starting another war to meddle in foreign affairs will think twice.

[edit] In response to Hawkeye's post.

I don't believe that the draft is going to be a problem. Bush is stupid, but with 50% of the population opposing the way, there is no way he would start up the draft. That would be a blunder among the greatest of blunders.

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Originally Posted by CloudSquallandZidane

I already registered for the draft a year in advance. But i just joined the service so im not eligable. And anyone who doesnt want to go to war, but still wants to live in the US and enjoy their freedoms, i hope they go to jail for turning their back on their country when it needs them.

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I'll be the first one to head to the jail, and I would denounce the obvious lack of rights along the way. Give me liberty, or give me death.

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Originally Posted by Hachifusa

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Originally Posted by CloudSquallandZidane

I already registered for the draft a year in advance. But i just joined the service so im not eligable. And anyone who doesnt want to go to war, but still wants to live in the US and enjoy their freedoms, i hope they go to jail for turning their back on their country when it needs them.

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I'll be the first one to head to the jail, and I would denounce the obvious lack of rights along the way. Give me liberty, or give me death.

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I too, would have no problem going to jail if it meant that I didn't have to fight. I wouldn't fight regardless. If they put me on the frontlines, I still wouldn't fight.

The minute that there is a draft, is the minute that America loses all the respect it once deserved.

why? plenty of countries already have compulsory military service. Not that I want to be drafted, mind you, but it's not as bad as we all make it out to be. We're going to have to do something to get us out of the huge mess Bush has created.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

If they put me on the frontlines, I still wouldn't fight.

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My sentiments exactly. I refuse to kill another human and, furthermore, I refuse to kill another human in order to fix idiots' mistakes.

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Originally Posted by eestlinc

why? plenty of countries already have compulsory military service. Not that I want to be drafted, mind you, but it's not as bad as we all make it out to be. We're going to have to do something to get us out of the huge mess Bush has created.

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First off, a lot of countries have a lot of things I don't agree with, either.

Conscription is saying that your life is owned by the state in every sense of the term. It's one of the few times that this statement is literal. Not to mention that the war is waged by the state.

It's why I don't care that "my country needs me!" At the moment, I don't believe that what my country is doing in Iraq is right. I don't believe that the government (which is, once again, nothing more than a group of individuals, so perhaps "mob" would best be used in this sense) has the right to push me into fighting for them.

Plus, the draft explicitly violates the 13th amendment.

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Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

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If compulsory service isn't "involuntary servitude," I don't know what is.

I read a very interesting article about a year and a half ago about the draft, saying that the Bush administration was going to have it ready to be implemented by March 2004. I think that was the date, anyway. It wasn't saying the draft would be reinstated, but that if the need was there, the service would be ready. It also discussed the fact that the government was going to try to make it much harder to avoid the draft--it will be more difficult to flee to Canada, and a college education will no longer be an excuse, among other things I can't remember. It's pretty scary, really.

This makes me so glad I am going into college(if I recall right college is an exemptitory.. right?).

Anyways even if it isn't I would just follow nik0tine's and Hachifusa's lead.

And I also aggree that I just would cooperate. I believe in self-defense and that is all. Even compulsisory service doesn't annoy me so much that(since I imagine you are taught some things that may help you later in life), it is that I may have to fight for something I don't believe in. I would go straight to the nearest base and sign up or whatever if we WERE ATTACKED and self defense was needed. However this war was a bunch of crock. If he wants to institute the draft I say we also have him join us and those that supported it.. so they can get it first hand.


Oh yes, last I checked women were forbidden to sign up for the draft. What if a woman was patriotic???? Anyways it prolly won't include women... which I guess is a form of sexism.. right?

I don't think college will be an exemption anymore, but I could be wrong. Also, I assume that women may also get drafted. The neo conservatives aren't as sexist or racist as the conventional Republican. These guys will throw as many of our lives away as possible, so long as it furthers thier twisted cause. I highly doubt that women and college students will get out of this one.

If the draft is implemented there will just be a HUGE over crowding of jails and people leaving the country to go to other countries to evade this. So many people don't agree with this war at this point that it is a clear majority. If the draft were enacted it would mean damn near death to the republican party in the next elections.

It isn't going to happen. To many people in congress would get kicked out because of something like this and all the other implications this would require.

The only way I would serve my country is if we are invaded and I have to defend it. When we go out war like in Vietnam and Iraq then smurf them.

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Originally Posted by Hawkeye

*shoots self*

Im actually really curious if the draft comes in, will women be apart of it?

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Don't males register for possible drafting at 18? For girls it's voluntary.

Anyway, there will be no draft. Not a chance.

so we won't accept a draft, yet we won't accept failure in Iraq either. Once again, something's got to give.

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Originally Posted by eestlinc

so we won't accept a draft, yet we won't accept failure in Iraq either. Once again, something's got to give.

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Winning in Iraq doesn't justify slavery - though I don't think it's that bad, yet.

EDIT: I repeat, wartime does not justify the infringement of individual rights in any manner at all. You can't be forced to quarter soldiers(5th amendment, I think), you can't be forced to agree with the government(not since the 1920s Sedition Act) despite how much Bush is trying, you can't be forced into "involuntary servitude"(13th amendment). The constitution and laws are not there only for the government to abide by unless they "really really want to" enslave you.

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Don't males register for possible drafting at 18? For girls it's voluntary.

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Yes, all males - under penalty of jail time - are forced to register at 18. Women don't have to register(can they even register?), but they can enlist whenever.

Hey for every1 who says they'd leave, Why wait???

OH, right! Its because ur enjoying the freedom and liberty that came from the soldiers who died before while protecting it.

I dont agree with the war either, but thats not gonna stop me from doing my part. For every draft dodger the military has to find someone to take their place. I just couldnt sleep at night if i did that.

I'm not leaving because it's cheaper to finish college over here than it would be in the UK, which is where I plan to move when I finish. However, if the draft were enacted it would be enough to send me overseas ahead of time.

And I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with the "we owe our freedom to the soldiers before us" bit. Of course we owe our freedom to the soldiers who fought in wars like the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, but that's because those wars actually threatened our independence and security as a country. Surely the war in Iraq doesn't, and trying to equate the two is a logical fallacy.

Actually I won't leave.. I just won't cooperate.

And how, may I ask, is the war in Iraq preserving our freedom?

I don't follow like a sheep. I have been given a mind and a decent education, and I feel I am expected to use it.

As a disclaimer I would have faught against Bin Laden since he actually had just done something to us. Personally I don't recall Iraq attacking the U.S. with force just before we declared war. I would have faught in WWI and WWII. But in Iraq I will refuse. They can send me to the front lines if they wish.. but I won't fire my gun. And if I see my fellow soldiers commiting an act I see as wrong.. and they refuse to stop. I would have no qualms about using my gun on freindlies.



And last I checked, a couple months ago just turned 18, women weren't allowed to sign up for the draft.

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Originally Posted by CloudSquallandZidane

I already registered for the draft a year in advance. But i just joined the service so im not eligable. And anyone who doesnt want to go to war, but still wants to live in the US and enjoy their freedoms, i hope they go to jail for turning their back on their country when it needs them.

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screw you my dad said "A black man has no place ina a white man's army."

yeah lol heck no I'm going to canada.

The U.S. government actually made an agreement with Canada that draft dodgers will not be able to flee there. I'm pretty sure you can still go overseas, though.

What about Mexico?

Might be worse, who knows.

well I have a few friends in mexico.The deal with me a black male.Basicly theres nothing much for me to fight for. in the USa. I mean goto war and join the army in a country thats ran by caucasins yeah pretty much ain't much to figh tfor.

Plus on a broader scale there ain't much to fight for.For anybody due to the fact that its a illegal war. And people are dying basicly for one man's greed.
/Is that fair that someone mus tbe over patriotic screw that crap this is like vietnam except less casualties..This ain't WW2 this ain't WW1 this ain't the Seminole war when my ancestors fought the americans.This ain't the civil war this ain't the revolutionary war.This is a oil war and one thats not worth fighitng and dying for.

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Originally Posted by Hawkeye

What about Mexico?

Might be worse, who knows.

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Can't remember whether any such agreement was reached with the Mexican government. Sorry.

I doubt it but hmmm yeah they can pretty much pull oyu out of school now and they can draft a mother's only son.So yeah I'm my mom's only son I rmemeber when they didnt use to do that but now they can destroy families like that so yeah we are all screwed except for women they can have equal rights but none of the consequences such as a draft and tell us to suck it up and be a man F them lol.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

(can they even register?)

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Yeah, I know some tard girl who did 'cause shes so caring or something. *gag*

well I'm 17 so :Pm hopefully the draft doesn't come on my B-Day.

You won't be called, blazer.

First they call 20 year olds, then 21 year olds, then so on until 26 year olds who are the oldest they will call, then they start calling 19 and 18 year olds. I looked it up when they first started talking about drafts and freaked out because my fiance was 20 at the time.

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I dont agree with the war either, but thats not gonna stop me from doing my part. For every draft dodger the military has to find someone to take their place. I just couldnt sleep at night if i did that.

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If the US was in imminent danger of attack from a hositle, outside force(that we didn't do something stupid to piss off: see Iraq), then I would join up, too. However, I would resent the implication if someone told me I had to join up and fight. I am not obligated - I am not forced - to do anything; if I go into the armed services, it will be of my own volition, in my own interests of seeing the country defended.
Not only is the draft blatantly unconstitutional, it also contradicts the value of freedom. A country is not more important than the individuals that make it up.

plus I don't wanna fight besides a draftee I mean they suck they are the first to die lol.

If the government reads up on history, then they'll know what kind of uproar a new draft would cause. They could say that the draft would = victory, but they also said that the war was supposed to only last a few months.

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Originally Posted by CloudSquallandZidane

OH, right! Its because ur enjoying the freedom and liberty that came from the soldiers who died before while protecting it.

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It's because of liberty and freedom I don't morally sanction a government who feels that I am, as a citizen, at its disposal at any time.

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I dont agree with the war either, but thats not gonna stop me from doing my part. For every draft dodger the military has to find someone to take their place. I just couldnt sleep at night if i did that.

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Isn't it morally reprehensible? But I will not feel a moral guilt over another's action. In this case, because the government would be promoting a form of involuntary servitude, I won't be the first one up and feel guilty when another is randomly selected. That means I have "no choice" but to be immoral - and morality without volition is a slap in the face at morality.

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Hey for every1 who says they'd leave, Why wait???

OH, right! Its because ur enjoying the freedom and liberty that came from the soldiers who died before while protecting it.

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No soldier in the past two hundred years has protected my liberties or my freedoms, and they aren't going to do so in the near future. Soldiers exist to serve the rich and the few, not me. Don't even imply that they exist for that reason, because it isn't true.

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i hope they go to jail for turning their back on their country when it needs them.

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The country doesn't need me, George Bush needs me. And frankly, if I was going to be fighting any war, it would be against him.

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Originally Posted by CloudSquallandZidane

Hey for every1 who says they'd leave, Why wait???

OH, right! Its because ur enjoying the freedom and liberty that came from the soldiers who died before while protecting it.

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I am not leaving yet because I don't feel that I am financially stable enough to leave and support myself long enough to find a job in Canada or England. Also you just need a push sometimes and a draft can be that push. The rights and Freedoms of America Jr. seem to just as much if not better or becoming better than the USA anyways.

you calling canada america jr? dude, i don't think thats fair at all.

im in the selective service because it is part of the pell grant. that doesn't mean i will go to war. i don't think i sent the SS information card anyway and they still give me the grant. yeah, im a parasite (sp?). i would like to see the military try to draft me. i would still be on the island and they would never find me.

Once you turn 18 you are forced into selective service.

If there is a draft lets see.Hmmm they need to make the legal drinking age to 18.

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Originally Posted by radyk05

you calling canada america jr? dude, i don't think thats fair at all.

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Get out of my school! :mad2:

You goto jail if oyu don't sign up for selective services.Its all because of WW1 why did europe have to screw around and goto war?Now USA got selective services.

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Originally Posted by lordblazer

You goto jail if oyu don't sign up for selective services.Its all because of WW1 why did europe have to screw around and goto war?Now USA got selective services.

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Yeah, I signed up for it.

The fact is, just because I do what I am ordered, does not mean I sanction it. Although I'm talking about dodging the draft, I'm not sure if I would or not. Politically and certainly loudly, I'd denounce the war and it's reasonings. But, there's no use in futile martyrdom. These kind of battles need to be fought politcally (ideaologically), not by civil disobiedence.

Then again, if the draft is instated and I am drafted, I'll let you know.

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You goto jail if oyu don't sign up for selective services.Its all because of WW1 why did europe have to screw around and goto war?Now USA got selective services.

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xD

I'm not leaving, because I haven't seen yet seen a country that's so much better at guaranteeing invididual rights that it would be worth moving(plus, I'm definitely finishing college and grad school here). The US is still at/very near the top of the list where that's concerned. But in 15 or 20 years? Who knows. If things continue along these lines, then I might move.

hee hee. what a little mess you americans have got yourself into. you see where apathy and believing what you are told gets you? tut tut tut.

if only you had voted more. if only you had demonstrated harder. but nope. you were warned it would be the next vietnam. the iraqi propaganda minister who you all laughed at told you they would draw you in then destroy you. but did you listen. no. you would rather belive bush, cheeney and powell. and now they went to send you off to war to die for believing them. isn't that a kick in the head?

iraq has done hee haw for american freedom and liberty.

but maybe cloudsquallandzidan is right. maybe george orwell had a great point after all and predicted the future. freedom is slavery.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

freedom is slavery.

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I love George Orwell. As I recall, that's the villian's statement. Besides denying the basic Law of Identity, it is also completely contradictory. Freedom is not slavery.

Really, I knew some Europeans were out to destroy freedom, but this is just ridiculous.

It's one of the three Party slogans, along with "Ignorance is strength" and "War is peace." So yeah, I suppose it'd qualify as the villain's statement.

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Originally Posted by The Man

It's one of the three Party slogans, along with "Ignorance is strength" and "War is peace." So yeah, I suppose it'd qualify as the villain's statement.

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I find it ironic that he (and everyone like him) denounces America yet again, not for its weaknesses but for its strengths. This is one of the most explicit forms I've actually read, though. He's quoting from a fictitious totalitarian regime, slinging its slogans which obviously represent an immoral, pretty ridiculous creed ("war is peace"? give me a break). Can we get any more obvious than that? If the rest of the world wants to know why a lot of Americans tend to see their country as the center of the universe, it's because, despite what Europe's intellectual bastion will tell you, most people want to be free, and when you begin to claim that ignorance, war, and slavery are virtues, people either run or give up.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

hee hee. what a little mess you americans have got yourself into. you see where apathy and believing what you are told gets you? tut tut tut.

if only you had voted more. if only you had demonstrated harder. but nope. you were warned it would be the next vietnam. the iraqi propaganda minister who you all laughed at told you they would draw you in then destroy you. but did you listen. no. you would rather belive bush, cheeney and powell. and now they went to send you off to war to die for believing them. isn't that a kick in the head?

iraq has done hee haw for american freedom and liberty.

but maybe cloudsquallandzidan is right. maybe george orwell had a great point after all and predicted the future. freedom is slavery.

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F your damn opinions blam the ones who voted for bush.and plus i can't smurfing vote I'm 17 not 18 i was 16 when the election wen ton i can't freaking register to vote when I'm 16.Thats hte hwole freaking problem i have byt he time the draft happens I'll be 18 and there was nothing I could have done about it because i wasn't a freaking legal adult to register to vote and try to make a difference.

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Originally Posted by Hachifusa

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Originally Posted by The Man

It's one of the three Party slogans, along with "Ignorance is strength" and "War is peace." So yeah, I suppose it'd qualify as the villain's statement.

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I find it ironic that he (and everyone like him) denounces America yet again, not for its weaknesses but for its strengths. This is one of the most explicit forms I've actually read, though. He's quoting from a fictitious totalitarian regime, slinging its slogans which obviously represent an immoral, pretty ridiculous creed ("war is peace"? give me a break). Can we get any more obvious than that? If the rest of the world wants to know why a lot of Americans tend to see their country as the center of the universe, it's because, despite what Europe's intellectual bastion will tell you, most people want to be free, and when you begin to claim that ignorance, war, and slavery are virtues, people either run or give up.

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I think he's denouncing America for its weakness and hypocrisy. Read his post again.

I agree that America has its strengths, but right now its weaknesses are also showing. So I can't disagree with his post 100%.

I mean man it sucks thoughand when I say they US army is having a problem with ment hey say no they aren't its doing good.I get mad at that statement because they just feel they wanna be right(forum posters).Now anytime the army calls most of its troops in the reserves tell me is there a shortage of active duty soldiers?Yes.....pretty soon a draft will happen and htis just pisses me off because i could never do about it.

All right. This is what I gleaned from his post.

- Americans are apathetic and mindless, and accept the "brainwashing" that we are given eagerly.

I can't speak for Americans as a whole. That's a very collectivist notion, as it's basically denouncing an individual in a country and saying the "masses" are apathetic and mindless. But, in my situation, I'd say I'm hardly apathetic (that I am arguing with his poor argument is justification at that). I am not apathetic when it comes to America or the rest of the world. As for being mindless, or that I am "brainwashed" (!) I don't know what he thinks American schools are like. But trust me - we aren't given propaganda.

- We did not vote or demonstrate enough. We were warned (by whom?) that Iraq would be the next Vietnam. The "Iraqi Propganda Minister" (who is he?) we laughed at, and we eagerly went along with Bush. We were screwed.

First off, by whom were we warned? Who is the Iraqi Propganda Minister? Second, there is a large group who are against Bush and his administration, and hardly anybody wants a war in Iraq. Also, once again ignoring that he still sees all American individuals everywhere as a collective mass, we did not collective laugh at some unknown being and collectively praised Bush.

- Iraq does not stand for American freedom and liberty

Very true. What's his point?

- CloudSquallandZidane was right. Freedom is slavery.

First off, CloudSquallandZidane is never right. :D

Second, freedom is not slavery. For more on my insights on this subject, read my previous post.

Fail.

Ehh. I was under the impression that by saying Iraq doesn't stand for American liberties, he meant the war, and that by the Orwell quote he was denouncing the fact that a number of America's civil liberties have come under fire because of the Iraq war and 9/11. But whatever, I shouldn't presume to speak for other forum members.

saying freedom is slavery then pretty much my ancestors were free when they were slaves working for the brits and americans and any other european super power that had slavery.

YEah saying that statement is a insult to me.


anyway Cloud No.9 when bush was first elected he pretty muchs tole the dman election because he had less electorial votes and somewhat gained florida after it was declared that gore had it and the bias supreme cort bush bush in office.Its always americans fault with you europeans you know what F you I mean crap large groups of peopel tried I mean they tried there butts offf.WE did everything yeah it wasn't enough due to the fact that the whit ehouse is freaking corrupt.Republican has complete control of everything so pretty much yeah they can do whatever they want and risk civil disorder.The hwole thing Bush is doing is jsut getting him and his pals rich nothing more and nothing less he doesn't care for america as you can tell since he is doing whatever the heck he wants the thats the problem.Now we americans are always told to stay out of european political threads I wonder why you dont stay the smurf out of our political threads I mean crap you may know em but oyu never know we may know some of your country's politics.

I do not believe that another draft is going to happen, it would be tatamount to political suicide and the American people would not stand for it.

And with regards to Cloud 9's little post about how we're screwed because we did or did not do this or that, I would have to ask that before he makes judgements he get his facts.

There were protests. Many protests. There were votes. Many, many votes. Protesting just doesn't do anything. I live in Seattle. I lived through the WTO riots. What do you think the protesting did? Nothing. What did the rioting and looting do? Call for a suspension of our freedom of speech in certain areas and delayed things because conditions were unsafe. Judge for yourself which was more effective.

Americans made their choice. For good or for ill they made their choice which is the ultimate expression of democracy. Sure there are those who chose for the wrong reasons, but really, Kerry wasn't the most vigorous or impressive candidate. I think he was one of the worst choices possible. But he was picked. And we live with the consequences. It's not that Americans don't do things, it's that they don't necessarily succeed.

Pretty much its the fact that americans are told to stay out of british threads and stay out of aussie threads but when we make one you other guys come ina nd say crap like oyu know everything.Then you say it in a manner to insult us/.In your thread topics and in you rpost in our threads on our politics.I mean wtf cloud who do you think you are?What does protesting accomplishes?What does you saying its our damn fault accomplishes?How is it my fault cloud?

the freedom is slavery thing explained. it was a retort to cloudsquallandzidane saying that people need to draft to protect freedom. and other's saying that enforcing it would breach the ammendment on slavery. so to protect your freedom you need to be enslaved. that's where the freedom is slavery came from. that was all. i will post later on the rest.

no one isn't arguing over the whole freedom is slavery thing.They're mad at your statement above cloud.the over all thing.which wasn't based ont eh freedom is slavery thing but you did put a statement in ther ebut nope that statement isn't wat pissed everyong off,

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no one isn't arguing over the whole freedom is slavery thing.

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No, that's pretty much exactly what we're arguing against.

I just keep coming back for more. Im gonna until i get banned =)

I hate people who take, take, and take. Yet when they are called upon to give, they run away. Yeh u might give taxes, but comeon that doesnt equate to military service.

The war is wrong, the war was wrong, the war was never right, and never will be right. BUT the war happened. And now US soldiers are dying and we cant leave. If u want freedom from a draft why not just go to a country without an army. Me im going to stay and serve my country, and hopefully get us the hell out of Iraq as fast as possible.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

the freedom is slavery thing explained. it was a retort to cloudsquallandzidane saying that people need to draft to protect freedom. and other's saying that enforcing it would breach the ammendment on slavery. so to protect your freedom you need to be enslaved. that's where the freedom is slavery came from. that was all. i will post later on the rest.

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Well, sure. But like The Man apparently got and I didn't, you're pointing out some American hypocrisy. Good on you. This was the first time you pointed out something that I can agree with.

Of course, freedom can't be supported with involuntary servitude. That's a flagrant contradiction. This is really all of the Iraqi War's fault. It was an irrational (though not all-out evil; America did oust a dictator, but at what expense?) expedition, and now people such as myself (who value individual rights) have to fight things such as the draft.

It's still not as if all of America is blaming themselves, though. As Behold the Void pointed out, a huge chunk of Americans really dislike that this war is being waged. If they institute a draft, it'd only make that obvious : they have to pass a law enslaving us to fight it.

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Originally Posted by CloudSquallandZidane

I just keep coming back for more. Im gonna until i get banned =)

I hate people who take, take, and take. Yet when they are called upon to give, they run away. Yeh u might give taxes, but comeon that doesnt equate to military service.

The war is wrong, the war was wrong, the war was never right, and never will be right. BUT the war happened. And now US soldiers are dying and we cant leave. If u want freedom from a draft why not just go to a country without an army. Me im going to stay and serve my country, and hopefully get us the hell out of Iraq as fast as possible.

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dude what you have to understand is the faact that you should never support a draft especially since we are a republic dude.We have an all volunteer army dude.A draft just forces you to fight and die.YOu should never be forced to fight and die dude never ever ever forced.It takes away freedom sure oyu can be patriotic about it and sya troops are dying but yeah they wanted to die and trust me its best to fight side by side with volunteers than with draftees.Now the reason why recruitment is suffering is basicly because parents are telling kids to get it in gear and get ther ebutts in college so they won't have to get themselves in a ty war int eh military.War sucks your right but the Iraqi War ain't fighitng for our rights if it was dude.Then there will be more people volunteering to fight in the military.

if the only thing that is keeping you in america is cheap education come to scotland. it's all free here and we need new people we have a population problem.

what needs to be asked is. why the draft? are we that short of soldiers? if american is actually running out of soldiers then you are in serious serious trouble. has anyone noticed it would be a draft not in war time? there are plenty of america soldiers. they haven't all been killed. so why the draft? it's population control. subservience. an enforcement of mass politicalisation. it chnages people from civillians into soldiers. with duties to the country. it breaks down reluctance and opposition.

also....... if the draft came in meaning that alot of civillains were now soldiers then..... an attack like 9-11 would make it a military target not a civillian one. it would no longer be an act of terrorism or a crime, it would be an act of war like the bombing of berlin.

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The war is wrong, the war was wrong, the war was never right, and never will be right. BUT the war happened. And now US soldiers are dying and we cant leave. If u want freedom from a draft why not just go to a country without an army. Me im going to stay and serve my country, and hopefully get us the hell out of Iraq as fast as possible

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That's your choice. But you cannot say that everyone else is obligated to - that goes against any concept of freedom. The country is NOT more important than I am, or than any other person is, and does NOT have a claim on my life.

Scotland's actually where I'm planning to move when I'm finished with my education, but the cost of living differences are so great at the moment I'm not honestly sure it'd be cheaper. I'm given to understand that education is only free for people who are Scottish citizens. (That said, I could probably just go ahead and marry my girlfriend and thereby become a Scottish citizen, but I'm not sure that's a step I'm ready to take).

I guess what I'm starting to think is: If there's no real threat to American security, and there aren't enough people still willing to fight there, then why are we over there? Seems like a waste. That said, pulling out now is likely to create another Afghanistan, so I'm not entirely sure that'd be a wise decision in the long run.

Also, what Raistlin said.

by international law the war is illegal. and by the principles established at nuremburg those partaking in it are guilty as much as their commanding officer.

i would not fight in a war which made me a war criminal. i would not fight a war which i do not believe in. the war is of no benefit to me and so i have no obligation to risk my life for something i do not believe in.

I don't see a draft happening if the support for the war and the president is so low.

I suppose I wouldn't mind a stint in the armed services - it would be quite an experience, and I don't really have any personal regard for my physical health anyways.

Okay.

So. Draft Dodging - stupid

the Draft - more stupid.

What do you hope to accomplish by dodging a draft. One honest voice is louder than the voice of a crowd (unless that crowd is honest). If the draft were to be initiated, which is highly highly highly unlikely, whose going to arrest all those people. Sure, big cities will have arrests, but the majority of people live in suburbs and rural communities, small towns, where everyone knows everyone else (in a sense). Police-men aren't always the true enforcers of the law, and I doubt they will send police to arrest everyone who simply ignores the draft, which if it happens, i will simply ignore it. What will they do, throw me in jail, that's great, then i'll sue the government when i'm raped or something by big bubba.



Honestly, this thread is a bunch of hysteria.

Im not 18. My bros are. Its scary as hell knowin that if one goes, so does the other. My bro says he would fight any day of the week if he was fighting for what he believed for. But we're fighting over oil. wtf. Why should anyone have to bust their ass for a mees thats our leaders, but still....... everyone votes for him.

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Originally Posted by Marick

What do you hope to accomplish by dodging a draft.

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well, not serving in a war we don't believe in.

Given the behaviour of the government recently, it's not unreasonable to expect them to treat draft dodgers exactly the way they treated them in the Sixties, which wasn't particularly kindly.

I protest war by being peaceful. Participating in the war would be going against my own beliefs, which I'm free to enjoy. Now if my freedom to be a peaceful person was threatened I'd be willing to help in a non-combative way, but that's not the case so no worries.

A draft isn't generally a good idea with the way we fight wars anyways (i.e. firebomb the crap out of people). When we do send in ground troops, we need them to be trained, the US has one of if not the best fighting forces in the world and that is in no small part to their training. I believe my friend said that the rough battlefield estimate is at a minimum 23 opponents to each 1 US soldier. Draftees would really throw that off, not to mention that conscripts make the WORST soldiers.

I really do not think there will be a draft.

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Originally Posted by Marick

Okay.

So. Draft Dodging - stupid

the Draft - more stupid.

What do you hope to accomplish by dodging a draft. One honest voice is louder than the voice of a crowd (unless that crowd is honest). If the draft were to be initiated, which is highly highly highly unlikely, whose going to arrest all those people. Sure, big cities will have arrests, but the majority of people live in suburbs and rural communities, small towns, where everyone knows everyone else (in a sense). Police-men aren't always the true enforcers of the law, and I doubt they will send police to arrest everyone who simply ignores the draft, which if it happens, i will simply ignore it. What will they do, throw me in jail, that's great, then i'll sue the government when i'm raped or something by big bubba.



Honestly, this thread is a bunch of hysteria.

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If the masses simply ignore the draft the national guard will come in town to town city to city collecting young men who look willing to fight.Trst me they'll do it if they really do run short on men power

If that happens, lordblazer, why don't we just shoot the national gaurd? I seriously would have no problem with a revolution if there was a draft. Fortunately, there won't be.

yeah pretty much but seriously there would be a forced draft if mass amounts of peoe refuse to coop.Local militia mainly.

There sure is a lot of talk about something that's not even close to likely to happen.

Aside from anything else, it's quite plain that Bush wouldn't be able to hold the country together. More and more are decrying the Iraq war, and it's pretty plain that any attempt at a draft would seriously piss off a reasonably large whack of the population.

I am, however, against a draft in all situations. There's no justification for it, except possibly hen your nation is being invaded; even in that case I would argue that people should still join up of their own volition, as I'm pretty sure your own cities being attacked with galvanise a lot of people into it.

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Originally Posted by lordblazer

If the masses simply ignore the draft the national guard will come in town to town city to city collecting young men who look willing to fight.Trst me they'll do it if they really do run short on men power

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If a draft was instated, all the reserves would be called first, which means all the National Guards would become part of the core army so their wouldn't be any national reserve anymore. They would become army reserve. And, guess what, there wouldn't be any National Guard anymore. If after all that there still was a need for reserves and civilians were drafted, it would have to be the local police or FBI that would have to go after you.
And honestly, I think I have more chances to win the lottery rather than seeing a draft in the US.

Conscription goes against everything a free society stands for. Our country was founded on the premise of the protection of our freedoms of life, liberty, and property. We are supposed to be united for the common defense, which is the only possible reason to have a draft, and still a flimsy one at that. Iraq is no threat to us. It never was.

Either way, I cannot allow myself to be drafted, if only because I am a pacifist, and cannot bring harm to another person, much less kill them. These have been core beliefs of mine long before I joined a belief system that held pacifism as it's core belief as well. Despite this, parts of what was going to become the new draft bill in 2004 establish that I am no longer able to "hide" behind my collegiate intentions. It also said that my beliefs would not help me either, as they would just assign me to a non-combat post, or relocate me to another part of the country for agricultural, or educational purposes.

I can understand a service in your hometown instead of military service, but relocation is almost as bad as compusory military service.

Somehow, instituting the draft anywhere in the near future would seem like a risky proposition to me. Everyone makes Iraq out to be another Vietnam, but the numbers on casualties just don't support that.

That's not to say I'd eagerly jump into the fray if I was called upon. Yeah, I'd probably do it, but certainly not eagerly.

As someone mentioned before, though, Bush's approval ratings have continually slipped for a long time now, and I doubt introducting the draft is going to help him any. "Political suicide", someone said, and that's about right.

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Originally Posted by Endless

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Originally Posted by lordblazer

If the masses simply ignore the draft the national guard will come in town to town city to city collecting young men who look willing to fight.Trst me they'll do it if they really do run short on men power

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If a draft was instated, all the reserves would be called first, which means all the National Guards would become part of the core army so their wouldn't be any national reserve anymore. They would become army reserve. And, guess what, there wouldn't be any National Guard anymore. If after all that there still was a need for reserves and civilians were drafted, it would have to be the local police or FBI that would have to go after you.
And honestly, I think I have more chances to win the lottery rather than seeing a draft in the US.

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some of the reserves are being called dude.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

If that happens, lordblazer, why don't we just shoot the national gaurd? I seriously would have no problem with a revolution if there was a draft. Fortunately, there won't be.

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I applaud you. I would totally be up for a revolution.

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Originally Posted by I own my Milf

There sure is a lot of talk about something that's not even close to likely to happen.

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so true

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Originally Posted by lordblazer

some of the reserves are being called dude.

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Hence, they wouldn't be able to come into the towns. FBI and Police just are not enough man-power to gather the troops needed, if such an instance were to happen.

Besides, wars are technological now. Tanks = 20 good men, 20 good men = about 40-60. Our armies are well trained and organized. A draft, even if we need more men, seems unlikely..

By the way, what the hell does Bush care if his ratings fall? He'll never again be president.


Also, why all the rap on the president. Let's not that CONGRESS must approve the draft. And if they do, you really need to start complaining to Congress. In the end, it's Congress that really calls nearly all the decisions.

If Bush cares at all about his party then he would do everything he can to get ratings into the positive again. If he does a bad job for the next 4 years and the majority of people think that(by a decent margin) then there is a very likely chance that who ever runs next in his party will lose. People would want change and the same party would mean no change. That is how it is viewed at least.

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Originally Posted by edczxcvbnm

If Bush cares at all about his party then he would do everything he can to get ratings into the positive again. If he does a bad job for the next 4 years and the majority of people think that(by a decent margin) then there is a very likely chance that who ever runs next in his party will lose. People would want change and the same party would mean no change. That is how it is viewed at least.

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what you must understand about bush is.He is just in the oval office to get him and his buddies rich.

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Originally Posted by CloudSquallandZidane

I already registered for the draft a year in advance. But i just joined the service so im not eligable. And anyone who doesnt want to go to war, but still wants to live in the US and enjoy their freedoms, i hope they go to jail for turning their back on their country when it needs them.

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You, as one in "the service," should know that the level of expertise and training required for millitary activity now is infinitely more than it was during the draft days of 50-60 years ago. There is much a greater requirement of technical/weapons knowledge now than before. Far more. Having a draft would be millitarily inefficient, therefore, because the trained soldiers who actually know what they're doing would be held back by the inexpireinced draftees.

Plus, a draft violates every concept of a free society.

isn't to bring up the draft a sign of losing or the fear of losing?

The days of rounding up 200 hardy men, handing them a rifle and telling them which general direction to shoot to win a battle are over. Iraq isn't Vietnam. It's unpopular, but it's a totally different ballgame in terms of strategy. I don't think gathering all the unwilling, disgruntled highschool and college students you can find and throwing them onto the battlefield after minimal training will do anything to further our cause. Think of it this way: Right now, we have enthusiastic, and very highly trained military forces in Iraq. The insurgents are still claiming casualties. Replace the words highly trained with minimally trained, and enthusiastic with disgruntled, and try and imagine the situation improving in the slightest. I can't.