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There have been multiple blasts on the tubes and buses in Central London.
With the transport system so hard to defend it was only a matter of time before it was attacked. I'd like to say I'm surprised, but it was truly inevitable. I'm shocked though. So close to home.
This is the first I've heard of it. Does anybody know who did this and why?
It seems very strange, and either suspicious or coincidental. Are the blasts on the train system due to a "power surge" (elaboration?) and the bombs on the buses really isolated from eachother?
I'm just relieved there aren't as many people hurt as there could have been.
Omg!! Really???
I go to London quite a bit aswell! Me thinks i'm gonna back away for a bit!!
6 reported bombs in total one on a bus. a reported 7th on another bus.
while it hasn't been confirmed i don't think there is any doubt that it was bombings. and due to the scale, multiple attacks and ordacity i don't think there will be any doubt that it is al-qaeda. multiple attacks are what they do. we kne this was coming for a while now. it was only a matter of time before al-qaeda would choose to attakc britain.
it was possibly chosen now because of london winning the olympic bid or for the g8 summit in gleneagles.
it serves to highlight the stretching of the police though as many met officers were in glenegales and are now being called back. leaving gleneagles open.
no report of casualty numbers yet. though it cnnot be doubted that it will run into hundreds.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...tain_explosion
there's the article, if anyone wants.
Arab sources say it is Al-Queda. Let's wait & see. My sympathies go to the victims & their families. This is bad.
I'm sure it was. Tony Blair claims it was a terrorist attack.
While I don't like to speculate normally, this comes the day after London won the Olympic bid. It's almost like whoever did this is saying, "yeah you got the olympics, but look at how much damage we can do when it arrives".
To be honest I think this is a reminder to the City of London. As horrible as it is, it's somewhat lucky that this happened as far away from the Olympics as possible. It gives us the better part of seven years to clear up the underground, public transport and up security. FYI my father is fine, and there's somewhat conflicting views as to how many people have died. Some say quite a few, others say only a couple. Right now I wouldn't put a solid figure in there.
I think that setting off bombs the day after the Olympics are announced would seriously cut the chances of them being able to do it when it comes around.
Besides its likley that this was done by Al Qaeda and as far as I know they never strike the same place twice.
the picture of the bus destroyed and reports that it was full leads me to believe that everyone on the top of that bus has died. it would seem very unlilkely that anyone could survive that.
i think with the amount of blasts, the concentration of people, the size of blasts and their location we must be looking at at least 200 deaths.
Apparently there have been 2 confirmed deaths.
Surely something like this would have to be planned out, so if it was because of the Olympics then it would have been thought about at the start of Olympic bid. I'm certain it was something to do with Al Qaeda, it has been mentioned on a Arab site that they thought it was..
no doubt it was al-qaeda.
wheter the timetable was moved for the olympic bid win we don't know and maybe never will.
This reminds me to the attacks in Madrid. Anyway, I really can't say anything new, only that I wasn't so surprised, London seemed the most probable objective for Al Quaeda. Well, I was surprised to see it today, but I am not surprised it happened.
As for the victims, I hope the number keeps low. I really do. It seems like this terrorist attack is less intense than the one in Madrid, and certainly less than New York. So let's just hope for minimmum casualties.
May God be with the families of the ones who have been injured or have died.
i just saw the pics on sky and a bus had its roof lifted of like a tin opener it was horrifing i recon edinburgh will be next i really hope that this is the end of them though:(
Well said Vampire Chrono!
I found out in English, they're making a big deal of it here at school, I rang my Mother to check my uncle was ok, and he is. People at school are scared Newcastle gets bombed, and Manchester, I doubt it, but people here are scared. Everything seems a bit weird, I don't think we'll have any more lessons, I think we'll be watching the news, I seriously hope more bombs don't go off.
Also, some people are positive it's the French! I mean what? :confused: They think it's because they didn't get the olympics! As if!
There's load of security near the Live8 & around it & in Scotland in general where someone would want to bomb. Chinook helicopters are there 'n' stuff. So I doubt anywhere near there is going to get hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnie
Is everybody okay? I hope everyone is safe.
I think the timing of the bombing is more significant than London hosting the Olympics. Obviously, it could have gone to France yesterday and this wasn't planned overnight. It's more likely to be a warning to the G8 leaders but it still shows how vulnerable London is.
I was supposed to start a job in Oxford Street today....glad I turned it down now.
It was inevitable, and It has to be based around the Olympic bid otherwise the attack would have been in Edinburgh, It would have happened to any of the cities had they won. It was a threat attack, a warning of the security they need to take. Fortunately it didn't go quite as planned.
Hmmm...and people wonder why I have little faith in human nature.
I too was gonna go to Oxford Street today, but decided not to cause it was raining!Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sark
I'd rather think of them rather than playing the blame game right now! Well said VC btw!Quote:
Originally Posted by VampireCrono
Considering how vulnerable a city-wide transport system like London's is, we're lucky that this didn't happen sooner. There are next to no security measures on London's buses, and the Underground is hardly well-protected either. It was always a matter of when rather than if this sort of tragedy would occur.
Still, seeing the aftermath on our television screens really makes the events hit home. Terrorist attacks are always shocking, but when it's a city you've lived in for years it really brings things into perspective. Those pictures aren't of far away places, they're of streets that I've walked down or of trains that I use every day. Nearly everyone in the area knows someone who could have been involved, and the impact these bombings have may well change the way our country thinks about terrorism in the future.
I hope everyone's OK, and that this sort of thing never happens again.
Well this is all the info know-
ITV have said there was 7 explosions.
20 people have died.
They were Tourist buses, as tourism is all London is good for, and the terrorists are trying to stop that, by bombing Tourist buses and scaring everyone away.
It happened during the rush hour this morning! Its a big shock, kinda unexpected.
London isn't that far away from me, i hope people are ok. Me thoughts and prayers are with them!
Death toll has risen to over 40.
This is horrible..
Wow, that's awful. :( I am sorry for everyone who was affected by that and lost family, friends, and loved ones... It's awful when things like that happen.
It looks like it'll get even bigger over time :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef
i've just been watching the news
i must say i'm upset and shocked. :(
Just Terrible. The Death toll and number of injured will continue to rise. Hopefully not though. My sympathy goes out to those dead and injured as well as their families and friends.
Death count has been reported at over 45 now
Yeah, that sucks, but it's not like far worse things haven't happened by the hands of "terrorists" in the last five years (hint hint).
Not that I'm saying that makes this any less than what it is. It always sucks when innocent people die, reguardless of whos, hows, and wheres.
It's Jus plain evil how could anyone bomb people!
it's jus sick! :cry:
Yeah sympathy to anyone hurt or killed in the attacks
or anyone having lost anyone in the attacks!
official death count is currently 33.
that though does not include the bus. i belive that most people on the top level there had very little chance.
but the one thing to get through now and to remember for all time, is not to turn this into a witch hunt. don't let this scare you into anymore concessions on rights, don't let this make you want justice so bad you will see anyone found guilty, don't let this cloud your judgement of humanity, do not blame this on any sub-section of soceity, act with justice and mercy. do not turn this into a crusade.
Yes, exactly, because that is what the terrorists would want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
May God bless those involved in the accident and all their relatives.
i think that the terrorists planned this knowing that nearly all the police would eb in glengeales. i hope my aunties ok
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660391.stm <--- not clarified true but aparantly the statement by the al'qaeda folk.
Yeah i woz thinkin that they can't attack gleneagles so they attacked London
It was proply like the terrorists idea of second best they propaply couldn't get gleneagles so they attacked London!
I hope that anyone with friends and relatives in London, or who is in London themselves, finds everyone to be safe and well.
I've been expected a terrorist attack for some time now. I was used to them, growing up in Northern Ireland, but this is something else entirely. It's not surprising, but it is extremely shocking.
The terrorists appear to have taken two main issues into account. First, the G8 summit in Gleneagles and second, that it was during rush hour. I honestly don't believe the Olympics have anything to do with it, but it is still a possiblity. Whoever it was and whatever their motives aren't important at this time. What's important right now is giving the police and government the support they need to sort it out, and to hope or pray or whatever it is you do along those lines for the injured and dead.
That just about sums it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London
Well, a bright side to this, though it's not much, is that many many more people could have been hurt due to the Olympic celebration, so I'm glad that it wasn't as bad as it could have been...
this is seriously bad
Terrorists suck. My condolences for British and their families involved
I woke up in the morning, and went for breakfast... just to find out that I didn't have any bread left...
...and on top of that, when I turned on the radio, I heared about all this! :-/
This sucks!!!
This does suck.... i hope the injured ppl will be alright... i hope no one else dies v.v
Al-Qaeda is responsible for this incident. And they're threatening Denmark and Italy (these countries still have troops placed in Iraq), but I don't think these countries will be attacked...At least not on this current year...
These Al-Qaeda guys must be really dumb. They're killing because they think they'll be considered heroes? Oh, come on...They must suffer a REALLY GOOD brainwash when they're born...Even a baby knows the difference between what's right and what's wrong...
Anyway, I hope it ends up with less casualties as possible. Let's hope for it...
I don't think this necessarily has anything to DO with G8 itself, I think it was more an attack of opportunity. A fair bit of the UK's security forces were centered about Perthshire, Gleneagles due to G8, leaving London uncharacteristically open for attack.
However, regardless of the currently nitpicky details of who and why, my thoughts and prayers go out to each and every one of you who are suffering in any way as a result of this.
They are brainwashed. They're brought up being told that Western people are evil and if they kill many "evil" people along with theirselves, they go to heaven and are looked highly upon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Dragon Knight
smurfing terrorists. If they can just walk into our country (WHICH LETS YOUR PEOPLE IN AND TREATS EVERYONE WITH RESPECT) and bomb us, we should just walk into theirs and bomb them to hell. An eye for an eye.
I'm still trying to get my brain around this. Only heard about it an hour ago since my internet has been down for a couple days, and I don't watch much TV.
Condolences and sympathies to all of those affected. I'm amazed how well the Brits are handling this though. Always calm, always strong, they've taken this crisis on admirably.
I heard the death toll is over 50 now. I don't have a link to back that up yet though. Simply horrible. :(
old manus: as a great man once said "an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind"
and you create a "our country and their country" who says these people aren't british citizens? that they may have lived in for their entire lives and their parents may have lived here their entire thier lives. being a terrorist dos not gurantee you are foreign. and what will bombing "their country" acheive if "their country" wasn't involved? simply for revenge?
old manus you are inciting the witch hunt i was talking about.
No, that isn't right. Violence is perpetuates violence. If you don't want any more of your people killed, then I would suggest going about things peacefully.Quote:
smurfing terrorists. If they can just walk into our country (WHICH LETS YOUR PEOPLE IN AND TREATS EVERYONE WITH RESPECT) and bomb us, we should just walk into theirs and bomb them to hell. An eye for an eye.
My problem with these terrorists is that they attack civilians. Just what the hell are they thinking!? This isn't going to further thier cause, it's just going to cause the entire world to shun them, and resent them. I would have no problem with these guys if they went around killing politicians and military leaders, but killing civilians is wholly unacceptable.
I heard the news this morning, and I would like to extend my sympathies to the people of London. May you all know love, peace and kindness through this difficult time.
Exactly so. Every time something like this happens, it only brings the victim country closer together, as well as causing solidarity in the West in general, strengthens resolve to deal with the people who do it, and moreover instead of creating fear it creats oppurtunities for heroism, as we saw in 9/11 and are seeing emerging in reports here, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
And this is exactly what the terrorists want. War. That innocent people die. They kill dozens of innocent civilians in London, so how would it help the victims or anyone if you go to another country and kill dozens of their innocent civilians too? I honestly don't think that the war against terrorism can be won by using violence, as that just adds more fuel to the fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Manus
I wrote this initially for my LJ, but it reflects my thoughts well enough:
I'll never understand the motives behind acts such as these. Plain and simple, these attacks represent the very worst of what people can do to one another.
There is a lot of speculation going around right now because so few facts are in, but in my opinion, this looks to be the work either of Al-Qaida, or another group that supports them in their efforts from a grassroots level. Though the blasts haven't been confirmed as suicide attacks, they impact of them, the location and the timing clearly confirms a fully coordinated effort on many fronts.
I don't think this has anything to do with the Olympics, quite frankly, because that would mean they only had 24 or so hours to plan this whole attack, especially because the bid could have gone to France, as others pointed out. Instead, this was done, almost certainly because of the G8 summit meeting, which had been announced a while ago and gave them ample time to plan this who terrible act. Since so much security was placed in Scotland, attacking there was probably out of the question, so the alternatives probably revealed London to be a primary place, especially since, sadly, they had not been attacked yet as both the US and Spain have.
It's so sad to see this happen after such much goodwill had been in the air recently from the Live 8 concerts to the Olympic bids, but all this happening probably sweetened the pot for them significantly.
What's important to note, is the level of condemning these attacks have garnered from all over the world, especially in Islamic nations, which seems to indicate that public opinion has shifted more than a little bit in the last few years, as many more Muslim people are speaking out against these attacks that so greatly disgrace the religion it's said to be carrying out by.
The war on terror is sadly, not a war on a person or group of people, but a war of ideology, something that cannot be easily seen or figured out. Though we can try to weed out potential organizations that fund or harbor terrorists, that only solves part of the problem. It's mostly, as some many have said, a problem of mindset, a problem of people believing in corrupt morals, that the death of some glorifies themselves to a level of existence higher than before, and that, for some who hear it long enough, can be enough to turn doubt into steadfast belief and force hatred into the hearts of even the most innocent or noble.
The real battlefront is one of education, of open-mindedness, that the whole world must sign on to, where differences aren't picked apart, or blame isn't forced, but rather, tolerance, understanding, compassion for humanity and for culture is embraced. It's not an easy fight, but it is one that must be fought to ensure that some degree of sanity can be restored in our lifetime.
For those who were lost in this tragedy, words cannot do justice the level of pain that will echo for a long time. The love of those who must now carry on, who will hold onto their memories, their legacies, can only be used to lift us all up from here on out, not to bring us down further. For even in death, the power of life, the joys of hope and of a better future still beam brightly ever onward.
Take care all, and of one another.
Yeah, I was just very angered and went a bit mad there.
At least then there'd be no optical segregation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
i agree bomb the *snip*Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Manus
I wonder what civil rights infringing legislation will be passed in the wake of this. Certainly ID cards will be introduced now, and who knows what else we will have introduced. Airport style security at the London Underground and all train stations? It's possible.
This, sickening as it is, works in some twisted way. It reminds the government that security is going to have to be stepped up for the Olympics lest there be more bombings with even more casualties.
how hard can it be?
My condolances and thoughts go out to the people of London, the vitims and their families.
Very true. I think it BETTER that it happen now, than in 2012.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Manus
When it does happen, it will play straight into the hands of the terrorists. Their goal with this bombing was not to kill as many people as they could, it was to spread panic and fear among the people of London. High security measures, rather than make the public feel safe, are only going to scare them even more. The best thing we can do in this situation is not to let their tactics demoralise us, to realise that we are in fact quite safe from terrorism and that attacks like today's are rare. Otherwise, the terrorists will have won.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
It's not just the deaths, the value of the pound sank when it first happened.
Update
Death toll so far is 40+, with the injuries numbering 360+.
While there is physically nothing I can do, since I live about as far from England as possible, I will keep this event and the people in my prayers until it is over.
the id card thing cant possibly work, its complete and utter bollocks.
silverpigeon: bomb who exactly? arabs? muslims? "towel heads"? some country which you don't know where it is? are you going to pin point these "fukers"? by what means? their color of skin? the way the dress? the religion they follow? the turban on their head perhaps?
do not incite hatred and violence on this thread or any other.
It's so sad.
Hopefully Blair or someone can actually see that terrorism attacked in a meaningful and effective way. Bush certainly hasn't managed to do it yet.
Well I'm glad I went to work almost 2 hours early, the Underground would had just been closed if I was on my normal schedule :p
I'm sure some survived that since there's reports of people jumping from the top of the double decker escaping after the explosion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
Do they expect us to fold under this?
Because they should expect us to hunt them down, and lock them away somewhere, like Guantanimo Bay where noone will ever know what we've done to them.
This makes three terrorist attacks on Western cities in the past 4 years. This is just terrible...
I will be praying for not only the victims and the families of victims, but for the entire nation of Great Britain. God bless.
If Manchester Gets Bombed Im in trouble, the same for liverpool, I live In Between the two :weep:Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Miss Awesome
At first i never believed it ;_______;
I was like..Nah...R..Really!?
I think its awful :(
Al Queda have also threatened Rome and Copenhagen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirobaito
... this has hit me very hard. I've just been informed that my cousins best friend, Barry, who I've met a couple of times has died as a result of the explosions. All of my family, including my cousin, is here now. Barry moved back to London to undergo studies @ the Uni.
I don't really know what to say to my cousin. Barry was an amazing guy.. and he was on the god damn subway. Out of all the people in London, why him? He was undergoing an engineering diploma.. and his life ends. Just like that.
We're trying to get in contact with the London hotline they've set up for families but it's busy.. can't get through.
I'm choking up.. gotta stop typing
I just heard on the news.My sympathies for the families of those involved in this traumatic time.
As for the scum who perpetrated this shameful atrocity on innocent civillians,all I can say is they should expect no quarter when the forces of law and justice smash their insidious operations and hopefully,put an end to the terrorist scourge which threatens our peace and democracy.
... his parents don't even know yet. They're down in Ottawa gone away on a camping trip and we can't get in contact with them. We're calling the Ottawa police to try to get ahold of them.
This is unbelieveable. He was only 18 years old.. my age. Gone.. just like that.
There was one survivor on the top of the double decker. It was a woman. the brave man next to jumped in the way and took the blast for her. The man died while the woman got foot injuries or something.
Undoubtedly, the British government will try and use this as an excuse to gain more power and control over it's citizens. The people in Britain need to stand up and say "No!" to extra 'security' or any other bullQuote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
that comes with this. If there is anything to be learned from 9/11, it's that after the terrorist attack, your government becomes the enemy.
Some people agree with me on this, and others just don't seem to want to acknowledge it, but every time an event of this fashion occurs, I find myself always asking the question - are we addressing the root causes of this conflict?
Of course, it's not always easy. People's families are hurt or killed, world's are turned upside down, and nearly everyone, understandably of course, is hell bent on concentrating their anguish and hatred onto a common group of people - these specimens we have come to know as 'terrorists'.
Now, I need to emphasise that the people who carry out acts of terrorism are of course led on by hatred and fanaticism, and are unfeeling in many many ways. What they do is completely amoral, and affects untold amounts of innocent people.
But just for a second, imagine say, if you were a Muslim, or you had family out in Iraq or Afghanistan, and every day you see scenes of your home country being turned into ashes, people of your creed and race being slaughtered, or perhaps many of your family have been killed. People you grew up as an innocent child with, in a life you just wanted to live, without interference from other 'good-to-do' countries. Where do you turn to?
I'm just generally trying to convey the point that these 'terrorists', while of course being frighteningly barbaric in their acts and in using violence against innocent people, are doing it for a reason. They did not simply decide one day they despised western countries for no apparent reason, and subsequently decided to wreack havoc on them. They have suffered, and they want payback, just like all the poor families today who lost loved ones will certainly want payback. But is this vicious circle really the way forward? Are we too deep into this exchange that it's too late for a political leader to step up and say "you know, ALOT of people aren't going to like this, but for the future of world peace...I think we may have been wrong in doing what we did." If we follow this "hate vs. hate" pattern of affairs, is it all just going to 'end' one day? Are we going to reach a resolution? I think not. Unless you like living in a dangerous world.
So in conclusion, I'd just try to walk a mile in the "'enemy's" shoes whenever you see an event like this, hard as it may be. I certainly acknowledge that if one of my family today were killed in the bombings, I almost 100% certain wouldn't be thinking like this due to the same reasons as the poor souls who have lost loved ones. But we've got to see the bigger picture sooner or later. Surely?
Gosh, violence is so retarded. A brilliant man once said: Fighting for peace is like smurfin for virginity. I couldn't agree more. The terrorists attacked Britain and now Britain and the US most likely will counter by attacking a country that has nothing to do with it and making more deaths and controversy. Terrorists are primitive idiots, they fight fire with fire all the time, they lack intelligence and maturity as a whole and the governements don't do much different. I'm not saying we should just let it slide but no one has ever tried so who says it wouldn't work? Also, they could simply make laws that won't let through terrorists or whatever. You can't stop terrorism and you can't fight terrorism with violence, because terrorism and violence are synonimous. All that is happening right now is the world coming to a slow and painful end. The American Governement will get tired of their allies getting bombed and they'll launch a nuke on some random country, it will cause major ruckus and some other country closer to the nuked country will retaliate with a nuke of their own and yadayadayada, the world is coming to an end very soon, start breathing and enjoying the "normal" planet while you still can.
Yeah. Stuff like the terror scale on Fox are ridiculous, they don't help, they just scare people.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tineUndoubtedly, the British government will try and use this as an excuse to gain more power and control over it's citizens. The people in Britain need to stand up and say "No!" to extra 'security' or any other bullQuote:
Originally Posted by Psychotic
My prayers go out to all that were affected by the attacks. This is a really sad day :(
It`s horrible :( six bombs at the same time? that`s too bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
Don't go that far yet. The world will got get nuked as a direct result of terrorism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hroth
The terror alert is "Orange" today, folks. What does Orange mean? Well, Orange means that it isn't red, but It also isn't yellow, and it'll never be green.Quote:
Yeah. Stuff like the terror scale on Fox are ridiculous, they don't help, they just scare people.
In all seriousness, we showed how well we can pull together. You can't take it away from us. The people of London showed true grit and determination to save and help those around them today in the face of danger. It's been a horrible day and my thoughts reside with those who died, suffered, and families that have lost loved ones, but we will shine through. We are t3h Brits!
Despite the horrible attack, I am proud to be a citizen today. :D
:)
I don't mean to be offensive, but I advise all Britons to be wary of the dangers of nationalism that will come in the immediate aftermath of these attacks. Do not allow yourself to be filled with national pride, or similar nonsense. Instead place your pride somewhere more productive. Be proud of the human spirit, and of human kind, but placing your pride in your country can have devastating results. I know that from first hand experiance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Selphie
It sucks. I started humming 'Why can't we be friends?' as soon as I heard the news.
It's sad, people have died and though they may be the type of commuters who never move for me when I want to get off the tube, they don't deserve death.
RIP guys, let's hope the trains work better up there.
But I hope this doesn't increase the march to bomb Iran or whatever random Muslim country is next on the list, that would only make things worse than better.
Also, I am very freaked out that the bus that explode is the same type as used on my route to and from school.
Remember guys, don't panic and don't let this stop us from living our lives, because that's what they don't want us to do.
CloudSquallandZidane: yet again you preach for the torture of people. no matter who has involved in this calling for them to be tortured in camp x-ray makes you as bad as them. no man should ever be tortured or degraded like that. the continuation of violence and eye for an eye views only drag us deeper into hate and violence. this act cannot opne the floodgates for revenge, a witch hunt, attrocities or degradation more than which has been done today.
as for what happened today. things have became more clear. there were 4 bombs in total. 3 in the tube. one on the bus. it is believed that the one that blew up on the bus was an accident and was also intended to be used on the underground but detonated accidently (ironicly it would be most successful). 37 are now confirmed dead (to be confirmed a doctor has to pronounce them so) so many may still be waiting to be counted. it is possible some bodies have not yet been recovered from the tube or in the case of the bus and trains the bodies may not be whole and so need to be collected together for a proper count. many peope are still in hospital with serious and life threatening injuries and some will die from them too.
considering the attack it was lucky more were not killed. i at first thought it would run into the hundreds. one unknown group has claimed responsibility but it is not clear if this is true.
justice for the men responsible for this must come. but with justice must come mercy and righteousness. we must not be pulled down with these men by degrading them any more than they have down themselves. they should be offered all rights that all other men and criminals have and this should not be taken away from them regardless of what crime they are accused and if so found guilty of.
It's not like the British public hasn't dealt with terrorism in the past. Still it doesn't make it any easier to cope with when it's that close to home. Go back to the Docklands or Lockerby bombings and think how scary that was, this really does eclipse them both for me personally, though in the grand scheme of things, no act of terrorism is can be compared to each other as they are all atrocious no matter the scale of the damage.
The scariest thing today for those not caught in the carnage or the aftermath, was when the mobile networks went down. I was trying to phone my friends in Central London to find out if they were O.K, which thankfully they were, and when the networks came up I was met with similar messages from shaky voiced friends and relatives.
The people claiming responsibility said something interesting in their statement..."Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters." London will continue tomorrow as normally as it possibly can, no one will be running, panicking or fearing anything. All emergency service statements thus far have commeneded nearly all involved in the services and the public for the manner in which they conducted themselves. Suffice to say, London has lived through a lot worse and its citizens, myself included, will not run scared from cowards.
Pfft. Mercy and righteousness? mercy and righteousness? Even if our opinion held ANY sway over the way things are going to happen, d you think the government is going to care? Do you think that relatives of the sufferers are going to care?
They'd care if they new that international terrorists were getting cushy treatment, while a loved one sleeps 6 feet under I can tell you that much.
I agree. I don't see myself as a cruel person at all, but those monsters who did it do not deserve good treatment at all. They're not normal criminals. I couldn't care if they were tortured, as they still wouldn't feel the pain of the people who lost loved ones. Maybe it makes me bad, but I like the eye for an eye mentality in some situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Quan
I'm not supporting a crazy hunt for anyone, or checking random Muslims as that's just not right, but when those people are caught, I know they won't be treated with mercy and love, and I'm glad.
While true, that's probably one of the worst things you could say to any victims of the attack so far. Of course the sensible head will think that, but until emotions calm down a little, statements like that are best left unsaid. Let people react, let them be angry, after all it's not like our opinions will change anything, only our actions.Quote:
justice for the men responsible for this must come. but with justice must come mercy and righteousness. we must not be pulled down with these men by degrading them any more than they have down themselves. they should be offered all rights that all other men and criminals have and this should not be taken away from them regardless of what crime they are accused and if so found guilty of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Miss Awesome
i doubt the north would be bombed as the main cities would tighten up security damn schizos
the statement from the people that claim responsibilty seems to be false. why? the quoted the quran wrong. and fundamentalist muslims and extremists willing to go this far are extremely extremely picky about quoting the quran in 100% correctness.
rye and master quan. in times like this a level head must be kept. we cannot be drawn down like them. if we are to bring these men to justice, with justice must come the just and true. and we will not be these if we allow these men to be mistreated. and this is what they are after. it was practiced in ireland and what is practiced currently in chechnya and palestine.
the terrorist commit one attrocity the government bites back in the ways in which we have seen. the terrorists then jump up and down saying "look what they did this is why we have to fight them" and so they gain more support and so it goes on and on. at one point the cycle needs to end. and the only part of it we can end is ours. if we stop biting back at these people then they will have less to promote themselves with, less recruitment. do not turn the outcome of this attack into an advertisement campaign inviting for it to happen again.
an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
for interest this is the second biggest terrorist attack in britain. first being lockerbie and third being the omagh bombing.
the reason for the bus bomb. i had a second thought on the matter. the news. the picture of a red bus torn apart will be on the front page of every newspaper tomorrow. the tube trains cannot be accessed by the media and so they would be no picture of it for tomorrows newspaper. to get a picture like that on the front page is a coup for the terrorist as it will be a constant reminder in people's mind.
I agree with Cloud No.9. Bombing terrorists, capturing them and torturing them isn't going to heal those who were wounded in the bombings, nor will it bring back those who died. It will just add more fuel to the fire, so the terrorists will get more supporters. "Look how corrupt the Western people are! They bomb our villages, they put our people in prison camps and then torture them. We will no longer take this kind of insults!" And you know what's next? They do more bombings, more acts of terror. The cycle of terror is neverending if you keep answering violence and death with even more violence and death.
Drawn down to their level? I don't believe they've tortured any one yet.
You keep acting like saying "justice, honour, true blah blah" will make people suddenly realise "Whoa, I don't want to hurt the man who just bombed and killed my mum, No, I want to keep him in prison where the rest of his "crew" can drop some more bombs and set him free."
A wise old man once said to me:
"Violence solves nothing, but neither does doing nothing."
master quan i do not set out to change the world by posting in this forum.
i set out to change people's views who see what i post.
I just heard the news and I was very shocked. 37 have been confirmed dead and 700 people have been confirmed wounded... It's just so unbelievable and terrible..!
Al Queda, who is behind this disaster, has also threatened to attack Denmark and Italy if they don't take their soldiers out of Iraq. It's hard to comprehend, especially because I live in Denmark and Denmark has not been active in war for years, except helping the US out in Iraq, which is just ass-kissing in my opinion. I can't imagine how terrible it will be if Italy and Denmark are also attacked... It seems like it is becoming so personal all of a sudden..
Yeah dude, it seems like Denmark is the next target. :(
"The Egyptian ambassador to Iraq has been murdered by his captors, in a killing claimed by the group of Al-Qaeda's Iraq frontman Abu Musab al-Zarqawi," the office of President Hosni Mubarak said.
http://www.eitb24.com/noticia_en.php?id=74199
Denmark and italy targeted is there gonna be something bigger happening? But they can wait since things only happen every couple years. I hope nothing more happens.
I hope the injured get well.
its not really nonsense in all to have pride in something nik.You create a lot of paradoxes btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
anyway i liked how organised the londoners were.Things are pretty chaotic there right now in the hospitals but hopefully yall recover well.It took 3 months for us okies to recover form the memorial bombing.
It depends on what that 'something' is. National pride is bad. It has done nothing but get people killed, and strip people of thier rights. I've yet to hear a single, valid argument for patriotism. It's just blindness.Quote:
its not really nonsense in all to have pride in something nik.
Such as??Quote:
You create a lot of paradoxes btw.
It goes without saying that this really, really sucks. I've been afraid all day that people I know from the Internet were probably harmed in these attackes, and I really have no way of knowing. Even if I don't know anyone who was hurt, it's still absolutely terrible.
That said, I found a nice blog piece that pointed out something I've been trying to articulate for most of today:
Quote:
Originally Posted by [url="http://www.livejournal.com/users/insomnia/582908.html"
What are you talking about? Look where national pride got us! The US is a paradise, right now!Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
Where's the logic in torturing the criminals? A slow and painful death won't bring back the victims any faster than a quick and painless one.
The U.S. is a nice place to live in a lot of ways, but I wouldn't call it a paradise. A lot of European countries actually have higher standards of living than we do, and also the cost of living is a lot higher here than it is in a number of other countries with a comparable amount of technological development, like New Zealand.
I was being sarcastic. :D
National pride only leads to hate and racism. It happened in Germany(only there, it wasn't totally racism) and it sure as heck happened, and probably still is happening, in the US.
ah. posting at 1:10 AM makes me a bit slow to recognize people's sarcasm when I don't know them well, sry about that. xD
I heard on the radio that it is 38 officially now, but everywhere has different numbers.
Some newspapers are saying as many as 75 could have been killed.
There are still people trapped at King's Cross.
The popular theory coming from Police sources at the moment, is that the bomb on the bus went off by accident or early. The bus was diverted from it's normal route when one of the tube bombs went off and it is more likely that the bomb was actually intended for another tube train.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
However, there is no doubt that mistake or not, the front pages of the newspapers, picturing a big red London bus, a symbol of London life, and essential to commuters, blown apart, has epitmised the carnage.
What's all this garbage about having no national pride, and national pride causing racism etc. The people of Britain, particularly London where people of all races/religions live together in harmony under one country's flag are uniting together and helping eachother out, showing the terrorists, and the world that the Great British spirit cannot be so easily dampened.
the news has been nonstop since last night. i deeply feel for them, i have a few friends in the UK, luckily no one lives in london.
I was on my DOE bronze at the time of the attacks, a girl in the year above told us, and advised us to see if our parents were OK, it was a sight seeing loadz kids on there phones contacting home, some were crying because they were worried, all were ok ( including mine ) apart from a girl called Cloe, whos dad was near the No. 30 bus when it exploded. When I got back, I looked at a Metro and saw the images, the buses were torn apart, and there were pictures taken of buildings which had blood sprayed on, it looked awful.
What was also scary, was that while I was one the train, there were men, with bomb detecters about, when i was walking down my road, i saw people checking cars..
I blame the G8 myself
Very sad indeed.
Then you can completely understand my motives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
You didn't honestly expect to be able to try and do that and not have any resistance did you?
I just heard the toll reached 50 this morning, and that is going to rise as they don't know how many were on the bus, and there are still bodies on the train. May the rest well and their families find peace.
When I say Tony Blair's speach I was glad to see that he reminded everyone that if it was AlQuida that attacked (despite there being no evidence), that it was JUST AlQuida that attacked. Most Muslims abhore this type of violence as much as the rest of the world. It was the act of some cowardly terrorists that left a bomb on a bus or a train, hidden in a bag and then got off and went on with their lives (there was absolutly no indication that they were suicide bombers). I just think that we should remember that.
We've also seen that we can come together and the true greatness of people can be shown. It is a shame that it had too be through an act of the worst of people. I also refuse to call this a terrorist attack. Because I for one am not afraid. I refuse to be afraid of cowards.
And now I will shut up.
Nobody is disputing that civilians are effective targets. If we hadn't firebombed Dresden, we could have lost the War. If the US hadn't numked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, then there would have been far greater loss of life, of both US soldiers and Japanese civilians. The difference is that we in the west aren't ones for just going 'Bwahahaha civilians let's kill 'em all!' Rather, sometimes we accidentally hit the wrong things. It's tragic, but it happens. Very rarely we decide to actively hit a civilian target, and that only occurs when we believe not doing so far outweighs doing so. The terrorists consistantly an deliberately target civilians and only civilians. Seeing the difference yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by insomnia
Rafl. And indeed, RAFL RAFL. 130,000? That's the highest yet. That's 30,000 higher than a month ago's highest 'estimates' - I must have missed the bit where we indiscrimately bombed Baghdad for three weeks straight. Although I've yet to see a reliable source which puts it at higher than about 25,000... moreover, anyone who pays vague attention can see that whilst the Coalition is responsible for civilian deaths, a hell of a lot of them (read: most) are because of hmmm, who was it again? Oh yeah, terrorists who blow themselves up in queues of Iraqis who are joining the security forces (With the aim of being strong enough to control Iraq, so the Coalition can leave sooner.). There's no way to spin this - the terrorists don't care about Iraq being free from Coalition forces, they just care about bringing death and fear to bear. Either that, or they can't seem to figure out that the moreQuote:
Originally Posted by insomnia
By the way people, patriotism is not the same thing as nationalism. Although I agree that one can lead to the other only too easily.
I think this shows that Britain desperately needs to do something about its terrible immigration and asylum system. Now, I'm NOT saying that this is the work of people who have just entered the country, although it wouldn't surprise me if they had entered the country since Labour came to power. However, it is clear that we do not have sufficient checks on those coming into Britain. Anyone can get in with the greatest of ease, terrorists included.
Personally, I am rather fond of the Conservative Party's plan. This was to only take asylum seekers and refugees from the UN, which when you think about it, is better for everyone. It means that Britain, which needs immigrants due to the ageing population, get secure immigrants who are definitely not terrorists, and also are screened against the likes of tubercolosis. Although a lot of the so-called liberal fascists in the media have called it racist to blame tubercolosis that has re-emerged in Britain's inner cities on immigrants, it's not exactly rocket science to work out where it has come from seeing as the disease was all but dead in this country 50 years ago. As for the asylum seekers, a lot enter the country hidden in the backs of lorries, and other such vehicles, which is dangerous and uncomfortable. The UN would be able to arrange better transport for them to get into the UK.
Anyone who enters this country illegally for whatever reason should be immediately sent back to where they entered from. If they enter this country illegaly to claim asylum, I also think they should be sent back, as they have undoubtedly travelled through several "free" countries in order to get to Britain, and Britain is their target due to our appalling immigration service and free health care. Although, as I said, this does not mean an end to Britain taking in asylum seekers, but just taking them in from the UN instead of whoever stows away in a ship then disappears over the horizon, which is an extremely easy way for terrorists to get in.
This begs the question, "What are we going to do?". We can't just sit by and wait for the next bombing to happen, and we still don't want to turn this into another war.
psychotic: immigrants from the un? well most countries in this world are in the un so it solves nothing. libya's in there, saudi's in there, iran's in there. so what difference would that make? and TB is not very asylum seekers it is from idiots who refuse to vaccinate their children.
you cannot gurantee that people are not terrorists. from they country they come from, the color of their skin or the religion they follow. there are hime grown terrorist, various nutters, folks like the ira and uda, no way of telling and so to shut of immigration and leave it to the UN (which is impossible) because you fear terrorism just leaves stereotypes and prejudice.
and then you get home grown terrorists.
to blame this on any group and prejudice against them for it is a road we do not want to go down. do not turn this into our reichstag fire.
It doesn't seem to me that the piece is saying the tactics are one and the same. What it *does* say is that doing so creates enemies of America, every time. It may create short-term gain, but we *always* end up losing out in the long-run, especially if it's done in something like the Middle East. We're supposed to be better than that, and when we aren't, it pisses people off.Quote:
Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF
I can be persuaded that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary, but I honestly don't see how Dresden or any of the other examples listed helped end the wars they were a part of.
well, there was a *very* thorough study done about a year ago that said 100,000 civilians had died:Quote:
Rafl. And indeed, RAFL RAFL. 130,000? That's the highest yet. That's 30,000 higher than a month ago's highest 'estimates' - I must have missed the bit where we indiscrimately bombed Baghdad for three weeks straight. Although I've yet to see a reliable source which puts it at higher than about 25,000... moreover, anyone who pays vague attention can see that whilst the Coalition is responsible for civilian deaths, a hell of a lot of them (read: most) are because of hmmm, who was it again? Oh yeah, terrorists who blow themselves up in queues of Iraqis who are joining the security forces (With the aim of being strong enough to control Iraq, so the Coalition can leave sooner).Quote:
Originally Posted by insomnia
Now I suppose you can argue that some of the casualties are due to terrorists killing people, but those terrorists wouldn't be there if the collapse of Saddam's government hadn't created an ideal vacuum into which they could flow. The irrefutable fact is that due to the U.S. invasion, Iraqis are now dying at a faster rate than they were under Saddam, which was 300,000 in thirty years. The region is entirely destabilized and it has given the friends and relatives of 100,000 dead civilians a reason to hate the United States where none existed before.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Independent
The problem with this is that civilian deaths create insurgents. It's a simple and irrefutable fact, and the CIA agrees with it. I'm not sure that withdrawing is the best solution to this mess, but the longer we stay there, the more people we piss off and the more people want to detonate suicide bombs in our public transportation systems. It's a simple fact, and it needs to be addressed.Quote:
There's no way to spin this - the terrorists don't care about Iraq being free from Coalition forces, they just care about bringing death and fear to bear. Either that, or they can't seem to figure out that the more
Also: RAFL? :confused:
To be honest, I don't think that way. I see no reason to be not proud that people of the same culture, people I hang out with, come across, and talk to everyday were selfless in the face of danger and fear, by ensuring other people's safety despite their own life being threatened.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
This happened in WWII, we all know how terrible the destruction was in TBOB. I may well be slanted, but this was the case with any country caught up in a horrific terrorist attack. Americans, Spainards. They helped each other.
But the British proved once again how resillient they are, and the best of them shone. I think Blair's and the Mayor of London's speeches were fantastic. and we will not cow to any threats or attacks, the country will stand firm as it always has done and always will do.
Therefore I have no reason not to be proud of my country at this current time. It is useless to have pride in just human spirit, because the inevitable source of these attacks were from other humans themselves. If you ask me, my pride in human spirit as a whole has been dented because there exists a type of person that intentionally kills and maims innocent people such as those in London yesterday.
Not immigrants from the UN, but asylum seekers. Legal immigrants are perfectly fine, as the government will have checked out their backgrounds. As for the UN, yes, those countries are members, but I have faith in the UN to only take those that need it. As for TB, it has definitely come from immigrants. As I said, 50 years ago it was dead in this country due to a vaccination campaign. Now it is back. As Britain has a lot of people coming into the country from countries with high TB levels, it has to have come from them, although yes, people not vaccinating their children does not help things, this is the cause. With proper screening, problems like this can be overted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
I'm not saying Britain should block off all immigration into the country. Not at all. That is much more than necessary. However, I do think that only those who have been given permission by the government to enter should be allowed, due to potential security breaches, rather than just be given citizenship. The fact is, the government of this country owes a responsibility to keep the citizens of this Britain safe from harm, a much greater responsbility than the one it owes to economic migrants. Sure, the UN and the government can't find EVERY potential terrorist, but if it stops just one entering Britain, then it is worth it, in my opinion.
I'm not blaming the London attacks on any group of people whatsoever. All I'm saying is that the immigration system leaves a gaping security hole for future attacks. Yes, there is the problem of home grown terrorists, but this means we don't have to deal with foreign terrorists in addition to those.
And the US isn't like that? We're the most diverse nation in the entire world, and yet a great portion of our people were easily blinded by national pride during 9/11; so much that we hated everyone that didn't agree with us. Bush tricked us into thinking that we'd be going after the terrorists in Afghanistan and used our time of remorse to the advantage of his motives. He told us that we were going into war to show those doggone terroriss hat our spirits could not be easily dampened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sark
You can have national pride, just as long as you don't allow it to cloud your thoughts.
psychotic a seperate thread has been made for immigration.
Dresden, and similar RAF bombings of German civilian targets enraged Hitler so greatly that her ordered the Luftwaffe to attack British cities. He was either unaware, or too angry to care, that the RAF was literally on it's last legs, and had the campaign on airfields and production facilities continued, we would have been screwed. Royally. (Of course, upon writing this I realized that the firebombing of Dresden specifically came quite some time after those events. Dresden and the other cities bombed right at the end served to create chaos, confusion, and disruption to aid the Allied advance. I don't actually believe these events can be as easily defended. But anyways, apologies for the mistake there.)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
I can't argue very strongly with The Lancet, as I don't have the resources to hand to do so (And I suppose that is rather the problem with the entire situation.). I will simply direct you to a couple of places which I feel aid in refuting the claims madeQuote:
Now I suppose you can argue that some of the casualties are due to terrorists killing people, but those terrorists wouldn't be there if the collapse of Saddam's government hadn't created an ideal vacuum into which they could flow. The irrefutable fact is that due to the U.S. invasion, Iraqis are now dying at a faster rate than they were under Saddam, which was 300,000 in thirty years. The region is entirely destabilized and it has given the friends and relatives of 100,000 dead civilians a reason to hate the United States where none existed before.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?...=1100183680513
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
I feel IBC is one of the most reasonable estimates, and it seems to tally with most other estimates, other than the US and UK estimates.
However, your argument that the terrorists would not be there if it weren't for the invasion is not necessarily valid. More accurate would be to question how many terrorists this has created, which we honestly have know way of knowing. Now I admit, it has certainly added plenty of fuel to anyone wishing to condemn the coalition. It may indeed have galvanised some people into taking insurgent action. Nonetheless, their failure to acknowledge that the less trouble there is, the quicker we leave Iraq shows plainly that rather than wishing to save a single life, they desire only to attack the west, and very likely to impose their will upon Iraq.
Finally, I must point out that Saddam killed at the least, an estimated million people during his reign. Moreover, the sanctions took many more lives - and those were not the fault of the west, as it has been widely accepted that Saddam would have restarted his WMD program the second said sanctions were lifted.
I understand entirely that comment, and I agree with it. However, it isn't fair to lay the blame at our door when the insurgents and terrorists have zero regard for civilian life, whilst we at least make the effort.Quote:
The problem with this is that civilian deaths create insurgents. It's a simple and irrefutable fact, and the CIA agrees with it. I'm not sure that withdrawing is the best solution to this mess, but the longer we stay there, the more people we piss off and the more people want to detonate suicide bombs in our public transportation systems. It's a simple fact, and it needs to be addressed.
Corruption of ROFL, used to signify derision. :pQuote:
Also: RAFL? :confused:
Finally, I'll say that the real problem was that we didn't take him out of power in 1991. We had very obvious, and irrefuatably casus belli on that occasion. Now we have to do the best we can, and I believe that staying in Iraq is the only moral course now. Whether one supported the war or not, we've created the situation, we must rectify errors and do as much of what we promised as we can. And if we weren't being bombed daily, we'd be able to go about it better. Unfortunately, the terrorists also know that the longer we're there and the more it costs, the worse the west looks.
Fair enough, the original entry probably should've mentioned that it was specifically referring to the firebombing itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF
ehh, I can't be bothered reading through all the dry, boring scientific language to compare the two studies, so I'll just concede the point.Quote:
I can't argue very strongly with The Lancet, as I don't have the resources to hand to do so (And I suppose that is rather the problem with the entire situation.). I will simply direct you to a couple of places which I feel aid in refuting the claims madeQuote:
Now I suppose you can argue that some of the casualties are due to terrorists killing people, but those terrorists wouldn't be there if the collapse of Saddam's government hadn't created an ideal vacuum into which they could flow. The irrefutable fact is that due to the U.S. invasion, Iraqis are now dying at a faster rate than they were under Saddam, which was 300,000 in thirty years. The region is entirely destabilized and it has given the friends and relatives of 100,000 dead civilians a reason to hate the United States where none existed before.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?...=1100183680513
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
I feel IBC is one of the most reasonable estimates, and it seems to tally with most other estimates, other than the US and UK estimates.
well, yes. However, before Saddam's government was toppled, Iraq was not a noted hotbed of America-hating terrorist activity. Now it is.Quote:
However, your argument that the terrorists would not be there if it weren't for the invasion is not necessarily valid. More accurate would be to question how many terrorists this has created, which we honestly have know way of knowing.
That's quite true, but unfortunately that's not the way the insurgency works. And regardless of the fact that they're not helping their cause, they're still going to be attacking westereners.Quote:
Now I admit, it has certainly added plenty of fuel to anyone wishing to condemn the coalition. It may indeed have galvanised some people into taking insurgent action. Nonetheless, their failure to acknowledge that the less trouble there is, the quicker we leave Iraq shows plainly that rather than wishing to save a single life, they desire only to attack the west, and very likely to impose their will upon Iraq.
A million? I've heard 300,000 from considerably right-leaning sources, which I'd expect would favour painting Saddam in the most villainous light possible at this time.Quote:
Finally, I must point out that Saddam killed at the least, an estimated million people during his reign. Moreover, the sanctions took many more lives - and those were not the fault of the west, as it has been widely accepted that Saddam would have restarted his WMD program the second said sanctions were lifted.
However, yes, from my understanding of matters the sanctions themselves are believed to have caused the starvation of millions. I'm personally torn on whom to blame for these deaths; I can see rational cases for blaming it on Saddam, blaming it on the UN/US/coalition/whatever, or saying that no one is to blame.
I'm not saying we should be blamed for it, but I think we need to at least take a fair amount of responsibility for creating this mess in the first place.Quote:
I understand entirely that comment, and I agree with it. However, it isn't fair to lay the blame at our door when the insurgents and terrorists have zero regard for civilian life, whilst we at least make the effort.Quote:
The problem with this is that civilian deaths create insurgents. It's a simple and irrefutable fact, and the CIA agrees with it. I'm not sure that withdrawing is the best solution to this mess, but the longer we stay there, the more people we piss off and the more people want to detonate suicide bombs in our public transportation systems. It's a simple fact, and it needs to be addressed.
right, I'd never heard it before. ;pQuote:
Corruption of ROFL, used to signify derision. :pQuote:
Also: RAFL? :confused:
yes, and it's as important that this fight be won in appearance as it is that it be won in fact, really. I agree that we should've taken Saddam out in 1991, but basically we'd have had to deal then with most of the problems we're dealing with now regardless and I can understand why Bush Sr. didn't want to shoulder that burden. That said, I think he should have, because at least then it'd have been a more or less unilateral UN action and we wouldn't be going it alone. We also wouldn't shoulder the vast majority of the blame for turning Iraq into a mess in the first place; it would be a natural, understanded consequence of Saddam's actions and I don't think anyone would question it, except maybe Saddam himself.Quote:
Finally, I'll say that the real problem was that we didn't take him out of power in 1991. We had very obvious, and irrefuatably casus belli on that occasion. Now we have to do the best we can, and I believe that staying in Iraq is the only moral course now. Whether one supported the war or not, we've created the situation, we must rectify errors and do as much of what we promised as we can. And if we weren't being bombed daily, we'd be able to go about it better. Unfortunately, the terrorists also know that the longer we're there and the more it costs, the worse the west looks.
But eh, I guess there's no real use in dwelling on the past.
Well, my belief on it is that any death is too many, but that it is an inevitability of war.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
True. Can't argue that. There weren't many targets there, and I doubt Saddam would have taken to terrorism in his own country much either.Quote:
Hwell, yes. However, before Saddam's government was toppled, Iraq was not a noted hotbed of America-hating terrorist activity. Now it is.
Sadly so. Man... we need to get all Greek on them or something. Nevermind propoganda, drop copies of Herodotus or something on their cities. xDQuote:
That's quite true, but unfortunately that's not the way the insurgency works. And regardless of the fact that they're not helping their cause, they're still going to be attacking westereners.
Hmmm... I have heard most estimates vary between 600,000 to about 1,200,000 (Though a couple as high as 3 million) of people killed directly by Saddam, with about as many again killed by sanctions. I don't think sanctions were the best way to do it, but it was either those, WMDs, or take him out.Quote:
A million? I've heard 300,000 from considerably right-leaning sources, which I'd expect would favour painting Saddam in the most villainous light possible at this time.
However, yes, from my understanding of matters the sanctions themselves are believed to have caused the starvation of millions. I'm personally torn on whom to blame for these deaths; I can see rational cases for blaming it on Saddam, blaming it on the UN/US/coalition/whatever, or saying that no one is to blame.
Alright, that's a point I can concede to you. And I do think the war could have been done better, and it'd certainly have benefitted from a little while longer looking at the situation and trying to get a couple more big players on board.Quote:
I'm not saying we should be blamed for it, but I think we need to at least take a fair amount of responsibility for creating this mess in the first place.
No problem, I think it's still a newish one xDQuote:
right, I'd never heard it before. ;p
That is true, yes. Having the UN backing would have massively helped the process. Techincally we should have it now, it's just that nobody cares much (Each individual incident of firing at our aircraft was by itself an acceptable case for war, for example.). And as you say, we have to look like we win almost as much as we plain have to win.Quote:
yes, and it's as important that this fight be won in appearance as it is that it be won in fact, really. I agree that we should've taken Saddam out in 1991, but basically we'd have had to deal then with most of the problems we're dealing with now regardless and I can understand why Bush Sr. didn't want to shoulder that burden. That said, I think he should have, because at least then it'd have been a more or less unilateral UN action and we wouldn't be going it alone. We also wouldn't shoulder the vast majority of the blame for turning Iraq into a mess in the first place; it would be a natural, understanded consequence of Saddam's actions and I don't think anyone would question it, except maybe Saddam himself.
But eh, I guess there's no real use in dwelling on the past.
Yes, which is why I believe that wars should be seldom fought and as brief as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF
True. Can't argue that. There weren't many targets there, and I doubt Saddam would have taken to terrorism in his own country much either.[/quote]Yes, it seems that he and al-Qaeda were incapable of working with one another and I doubt that any other organisation would have fared much better.
That's actually an excellent idea. Too bad our politicians are too closed-minded to consider doing it.Quote:
Sadly so. Man... we need to get all Greek on them or something. Nevermind propoganda, drop copies of Herodotus or something on their cities. xD
Agreed. Which comes full circle back to the "We should've just taken him out in the first place" argument, really.Quote:
Hmmm... I have heard most estimates vary between 600,000 to about 1,200,000 (Though a couple as high as 3 million) of people killed directly by Saddam, with about as many again killed by sanctions. I don't think sanctions were the best way to do it, but it was either those, WMDs, or take him out.
Definitely. Bush earned a lot of flak even while still going into the war for not being as diplomatic as he could have been, and it's really come back to bite us in the ass here.Quote:
Alright, that's a point I can concede to you. And I do think the war could have been done better, and it'd certainly have benefitted from a little while longer looking at the situation and trying to get a couple more big players on board.
Agreed on all points.Quote:
That is true, yes. Having the UN backing would have massively helped the process. Techincally we should have it now, it's just that nobody cares much (Each individual incident of firing at our aircraft was by itself an acceptable case for war, for example.). And as you say, we have to look like we win almost as much as we plain have to win.
It's not garbage, it's the truth. Britain doesn't need national pride to help each other out. They don't need national pride to get through this, they just need a strong sense of humanity, and I have faith that the Brits have it.Quote:
What's all this garbage about having no national pride, and national pride causing racism etc. The people of Britain, particularly London where people of all races/religions live together in harmony under one country's flag are uniting together and helping eachother out, showing the terrorists, and the world that the Great British spirit cannot be so easily dampened.
After a terrorist attack, you don't need to wave your stupid little flags and shout "USA! USA! USA!" with a crowd of idiots. (Obviously the British aren't going to be hailing the United States, but you get my point) All this "National pride" did after September 11th was get people killed, restricted our rights, and made any form of dissent virtually impossible for quite some time. In the past, what has patriotism ever accomplished? It unites small groups of people, blinds them, and pits them against anybody who could be construed as "different". National pride is not good.
There are ranges of National Pride, you know. Even in America, not everyone grabbed a flag and started chanting. I think it's a good to celebrate what's good about your country. You don't have to be blindly patriotic, but pride that there wasn't panic in the streets isn't harmful.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
I've never seen a patriot who wasn't overly patriotic.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200507080002
Well I knew this crap would start sooner or later. :crying:Quote:
Fox's Gibson on "golden opportunity" missed: If France had been selected for 2012 Olympics, terrorists would "blow up Paris, and who cares?"
The day before the July 7 terrorist attacks on London buses and subways, Fox News host John Gibson stated that the International Olympic Committee (IOC) "missed a golden opportunity" because, if France had been selected to host the 2012 Olympics, terrorists would "blow up Paris, and who cares?" Following the London attacks, Gibson reiterated that the IOC ought to have selected Paris instead of London, because the British should "let somebody else be worried about guys with backpack bombs for a while."
From the July 6 broadcast of Westwood One's The Radio Factor with Bill O'Reilly, guest-hosted by Gibson:
GIBSON: By the way, just wanted to tell you people, we missed -- the International Olympic Committee missed a golden opportunity today. If they had picked France, if they had picked France instead of London to hold the Olympics, it would have been the one time we could look forward to where we didn't worry about terrorism. They'd blow up Paris, and who cares?
From the "My Word" segment of the July 7 edition of Fox News' The Big Story with John Gibson:
GIBSON: The bombings in London: This is why I thought the Brits should let the French have the Olympics -- let somebody else be worried about guys with backpack bombs for a while.
America needs to learn the concept of "Shut the Hell Up"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4668313.stm
Now they're evacuating Birmingham city centre. (Second largest city in the UK, for those who don't know). Apparently the London attacks have increased the paranoia level of the authorities substantially.
Fox News is an abomination. If the right held itself to the standards to which it holds the left, they'd be shut down for saying things like that.
so american news condones the killing and maiming of innocents if they are french? why does this not suprise me? everyone here would be in outrage if i said 9-11 was a good thing cos it happend to america (not saying that by the way it was just a point before you all get up in arms) they need to learn some respect and should be taken off the air permanantly and immediatly for such a statement.
would it be fine if the bbc said blowing up manhatten was cool?
It's really quite popular for American right wingers to hate the French. Worry not, however, the people on the right are stupid.Quote:
so american news condones the killing and maiming of innocents if they are french? why does this not suprise me?
No, because the BBC isn't American, right wing news. Therefore it is not acceptable.Quote:
would it be fine if the bbc said blowing up manhatten was cool?
Yep. And it's getting rediculous. Actaully, there was a worse one that I found after I posted this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?...ectID=10334864Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit Hume, Fox News Reporter
So Fox News is pretty idiotic to say the least. RW people especially.
Reading some US right wing websites, it's pretty clear they despise the Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland and believe the Orangemen & Ulster Protestants are Godlike entities fighting the devil (they drew links to the IRA & these Fundamentalists). They're idiots who speak on topics they have no real grasp on.
It's very very dangerous for people with such power to couple that with such strong views on a subject they have such little understanding. It may not only cause wars with 'towelheads' in the not to distant future. They're alienating the world.
one must also remember that the ira was some great big joke to america a few years ago and they supported it. 3,000 dead americans later and suddenly the french are evil and terrorism is not a laughing matter for them.
My friend and I were making plenty of jokes about it on Thursday when we went to the movies. I mean, we spent most of the hour-long walk both ways making jokes about it. We're hardly idiotic or evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnostic Yevon
WTF? Dude, you really stop saying $hit like that. Seriously. America was well aware of Al-Quaeda, as well as many other world-spread terrorist organisations, and has done a lot (but obviously not enough) to deal with that threat. Yes, as it showed later on, the US didn't take Al-Quaeda quite as seriously as it should've. As for the supporting thing - the US never supported any terrorist organisation. They did support the Afghan Mujahideen, while those were fighting the Soviet Union, around the mid-1980s. The Islamic combatants were then fighting an enemy mutual to the US, and supporting them was the right thing to do, in the view of the time. Retrospectively, it was wrong. But the older, the wiser, eh?Quote:
one must also remember that the ira was some great big joke to america a few years ago and they supported it
the ira are not islamic terrorists. there are other kinds. and it was well known that alot of people in america actively supported and funded them. ted kennedy for one openly supported the ira's cause back when it was cool to do stuff like that. it was how the ira got their hand on a stinger and psg they were imported from america.
The IRA and Islamic Fundementalists cannot be categorised in the same bracket. Infact you cannot lump every guerilla movement & 'terrorist' in one bracket. You do yourself, it's victims, it's members & it's cause an injustice in doing so.
If requested I could give a brief history of the Republican Movement & differentials between the two.