Celes and 'Maria & Draco'

There are spoilers in this post and thread, if you haven't played through Final Fantasy VI yet and you plan on it, I highly suggest against reading on.

The Maria & Draco sequence to this day is held to be one of the most important story scenes to ever grace a video game in the 16 bit era. Even today the "Opera scene" is held to be a driving force in what places the sixth installment of the Final Fantasy series as one of the best in the minds of many long-time fans. The scene featured a lengthy and bold memorization minigame as well as a score comprised of three of arguably the best Final Fantasy tunes ever composed, including a voice-like synth track to give a 16 bit interpretation of the vocal aspects of the opera. On top of being completely and totally innovative for the time on almost all levels, this sequence also served as, in my opinion, quite possibly the strongest and most well done character developmental medium in video games as we know them.

Most fans of the Final Fantasy series, and more particularly of Final Fantasy VI appreciate the Maria & Draco sequence. Oddly enough, I have found that it seems that many of those who do have very generic reasons and honestly almost feel as if they only do because it is held so highly by others. It is my intention to explain why this scene is so important to me personally and my hope that it will give at least someone a better understanding of what makes this small segment of Final Fantasy VI so charming.

Celes Chere is introduced to us in Final Fantasy VI in a manner that, shown in todays graphics, just might put a big fat M rating on the cover- chained to a wall being ruthlessly beaten by male soldiers. The rest of Celes' story before the actual events in the game aren't any less horrible than this, in fact, if Celes was meant to represent one simple idea, I would say that it is most certainly tragedy. For all intents and purposes, Celes is a monster. She is a living weapon, artifically altered to become a destructive killing tool. Her entire character seems to be this symbolic representation of artificiality and corruption. Upon meeting Locke and joining the group, like many others in the Final Fantasy VI cast, Celes is in a constant state and search of self-realization and overcoming. Though it is ongoing for Celes in particular, there is no time when it happens as rapid and effectively as I believe it does in the opera house when Celes is suddenly backed into a corner- this monster, this machine built and altered for killing and war must become Maria, a symbol for beauty, peace, and purity.

I believe that the Maria & Draco sequence is one of the most important moments in Celes' life as a character. In these moments she is forced to become something that is totally and completely opposite of herself, and in my opinion, she is able to identify and overcome more of the very corruption she symbolizes as a character than any other point in the Final Fantasy VI story.

I believe that Celes also becomes Maria one other time in the timeline of Final Fantasy VI, on the solitary island after Kefka's cataclysm and Cid's death. Draco, who was a symbol for everything that was anything to Maria, becomes everything and everyone Celes had come to finally understand that wasn't wicked and sinister being taken away from her by that which was. Celes then climbs the castle balcony once again and casts herself off as a tragic and beautiful bouquet.

Throughout the Final Fantasy series and each of its installments, Celes remains my absolute favorite character. I don't think that anyone, including Square themselves has come up with a more tragic and effective character with such perfect presentation and execution since her conception in Final Fantasy VI.

A lot of people seem to miss out on some of the details I've presented, and I think they're really essential and do their part in making the game what it is.

What do you think of Celes and 'Maria & Draco' in the context of Video Games, the Final Fantasy series, and Final Fantasy VI in particular? Why?

Wow. That's deep.

You may be reading into it a bit too much...but I'll go with it.

I also believe Celes to be one of the most well done characters in a video game to date.
The turn around of here character in the story was really well done and just didn't happen suddenly as is the way with many other characters today. While the "opera scene" did speed up her change significantly,
it took her a long time to fully figure it out. She still thought of herself as a mere tool to be used but she had been given a taste of something greater than her current living style.

The first time we truly see an effect from this happening to her is when she turns on Kefka in the Esper restraining room. Her feelings finally show themselves and she "sacrifices" herself to save the others.
She finally saw that there were REASONS people fought other than being ordered to.

However her full turn over is finally culminated when she "becomes" a real life Maria. My thoughts on this are the same as Necro's so just read his analysis to have my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by My name is...something..?

I also believe Celes to be one of the most well done characters in a video game to date.
The turn around of here character in the story was really well done and just didn't happen suddenly as is the way with many other characters today. While the "opera scene" did speed up her change significantly,
it took her a long time to fully figure it out. She still thought of herself as a mere tool to be used but she had been given a taste of something greater than her current living style.

The first time we truly see an effect from this happening to her is when she turns on Kefka in the Esper restraining room. Her feelings finally show themselves and she "sacrifices" herself to save the others.
She finally saw that there were REASONS people fought other than being ordered to.

However her full turn over is finally culminated when she "becomes" a real life Maria. My thoughts on this are the same as Necro's so just read his analysis to have my thoughts.

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This makes me want to play Final Fantasy VI again.

And that it should.

this is good this is real good never seen it that way but your right in every way :D good thinking here

Um, FFVI was supposed to be a comedy (more of a Shakespearian comedy but a comedy nonetheless). I really don’t think that square put anywhere NEAR the thought into Celes that you are implying. I can’t remember a single scene in the game that made me think “wow, now that’s dramatic!”

Meh, but I’ve seen Evangelion, and after that, everything seems funny…

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Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

I can’t remember a single scene in the game that made me think “wow, now that’s dramatic!”

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A lot of people don't simply because of the graphics in the game, but just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. In some ways I think that Final Fantasy VI is one of the darkest games in the series, attempted suicide and a lunatic playing a murdering God is not meant to be funny.

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Originally Posted by Necronopticous

A lot of people don't simply because of the graphics in the game, but just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. In some ways I think that Final Fantasy VI is one of the darkest games in the series, attempted suicide and a lunatic playing a murdering God is not meant to be funny.

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Errr, are you saying that Kefka wasn’t supposed to be entertaining? Hmm…

I must admit, I’ve never seen this suicide scene that everyone talks about. I actually made the effort to save Cid. As for FFVI being the darkest in the series, I really don’t see it. Quite a bit of game was PURE comedy, at least more than it was dark. And when you have FF games like FFVII to contend with, FFVI doesn’t really come up as dramatic.

Oh, and I think you’re assuming too much by saying that the 2D graphics turn people away from FFVI. Really, I don’t see how graphics affect the way people interpret the plot. I don’t consider FFVI very serious because the dialogue is very immature, in true Nintendo fashion. There is nothing wrong with this style, but it does mean that it’s harder to consider FFVI as seriously as some of the later FF games.

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Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

Um, FFVI was supposed to be a comedy (more of a Shakespearian comedy but a comedy nonetheless). I really don’t think that square put anywhere NEAR the thought into Celes that you are implying. I can’t remember a single scene in the game that made me think “wow, now that’s dramatic!”

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Shakespeare put lots of deep issues into even his comedies (read Shylock's famous "Hath not a Jew eyes" soloiloquy in The Merchant of Venice for one example), so I'm going to have to disagree with this.

Nice assessment, Necronopticous.

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Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

And when you have FF games like FFVII to contend with, FFVI doesn’t really come up as dramatic.

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And this simple (in more ways than one) statement reflects why you don't see the complexity of FFVI.

First of all, the graphics do effect the interpretation of the plot. The newer games show it possible for characters to reflect emotion, whereas with the older 8- and 16-bit games, facial expressions--and even body gestures--are nearly impossible. I mean hell, they even use question marks and exclamation points above their head, for cryin' out loud.

Secondly, WAY too many people have been caught up in the newer games--because the newer games were marketed better, with better graphics, on "better" systems--and concentrate too much on simple things like graphics and not nearly enough on the complexities of sorted characters, deeper plot lines, twists, etc. etc.

General Leo's death was just as "dramatic" as Aeris' death, but nobody swoons over Leo.

There were rare segments of FFVI made to be "pure comedy"--such as the revelation that Cyan knows nothing about machines or that Gau is afraid of water--but those are few and far between, and the general line is much darker than many of the other Final Fantasy games.

Sure, Kefka was meant to be entertaining--his outfits, some of his dialog, etc. However, it was certainly not the primary objective of Square to make him funny--as Nec said, he's a lunatic, bent on world domination/destruction, with total disregard to human life. Not some schmuck who wants to save the world by destroying it, but somebody who wants to control the world by destroying it.

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General Leo's death was just as "dramatic" as Aeris' death, but nobody swoons over Leo.

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Thats because Leo is lacking in the vagina department.


I don't recall FFVI being very "comedic". In fact, I don't recall laughing once. Hows that for comedy? I do however, see lighthearted elements in the game, but they were mixed (and quite masterfully, I might add) with dark and sinister elements.

I don't think that Square put this much thought into Celes and the opera scene, but then again, I don't think Shakespeare put as much thought into his works either. I don't think ANYBODY does. However, that doesn't mean that we can't interpret it for what we want, and find the greatness in it that was never intended to be there in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

And this simple (in more ways than one) statement reflects why you don't see the complexity of FFVI.

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Why? Because I thought FFVII had a more dramatic story line? Let me just say that I played FFVI before FFVII, so my opinion wouldn’t be biased in that respect. Not sure what you were getting at with your “in more ways than one” statement, I don’t see the complexity of FFVI because IT WASN’T COMPLEX! Neither was FFVII, or FFVIII, in fact all FF games are rather easy to understand. If I didn’t see something, it was because o my lack of understanding of the Japanese culture, but I doubt many people hear have that…
If you want a REAL complex story line, watch Evangelion, it’s on a level much higher than any FF game.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

First of all, the graphics do effect the interpretation of the plot. The newer games show it possible for characters to reflect emotion, whereas with the older 8- and 16-bit games, facial expressions--and even body gestures--are nearly impossible. I mean hell, they even use question marks and exclamation points above their head, for cryin' out loud.

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Hmm, I didn’t think of that. I guess you have a point.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Secondly, WAY too many people have been caught up in the newer games--because the newer games were marketed better, with better graphics, on "better" systems--and concentrate too much on simple things like graphics and not nearly enough on the complexities of sorted characters, deeper plot lines, twists, etc. etc.

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Now that is a very biased statement. I really don’t understand what makes people think that just because the graphics have considerable increased in quality over the years, it has been at the expense of story line. I think you’ll have a hard time debating that characters in FFVI were any better developed than those in any of the other FF games (well, with the exclusion of X-2), especially since most of the characters were abandoned towards then end in favour of Celes, Terra and Locke ( and you didn’t even need to reclaim Terra to complete the game, she was the closest thing the game had to a main character!). There is no basis to your statement other than personal opinion, which is fine, but you cannot state it as fact.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

General Leo's death was just as "dramatic" as Aeris' death, but nobody swoons over Leo.

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General Leo played an insignificant role in FFVI compared to Aeris in FFVII; Aeris at least was playable for more than one battle. If their death were just as dramatic (with, IMO, they weren’t), people cry over Aeris’ death to a greater degree because she had played a greater role in FFVII than Leo in FFVI. Remember, in the beginning Leo had been an antagonist of the sorts.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

There were rare segments of FFVI made to be "pure comedy"--such as the revelation that Cyan knows nothing about machines or that Gau is afraid of water--but those are few and far between, and the general line is much darker than many of the other Final Fantasy games.

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Really, I don’t see how FFVI was dark. I know, the world is destroyed, but that happens all the time in Video Games. I can’t really think of any scene in the game that I considered “Dark”, at least not at the level of the later FF games (namely FFVII, but also in FFX). The entire game had a very “light heated” or, dare I say, “immature” feel to it; It could have been due to the influence of Nintendo’s translation, but even so it was there.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Sure, Kefka was meant to be entertaining--his outfits, some of his dialog, etc. However, it was certainly not the primary objective of Square to make him funny--as Nec said, he's a lunatic, bent on world domination/destruction, with total disregard to human life. Not some schmuck who wants to save the world by destroying it, but somebody who wants to control the world by destroying it.

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Bah, there was NOTHING serious about Kefka, everything he did was a riot! All of his dialogue was entertaining to some extent, as was the way he destroys the world simply because he gets pissed off at Celes. No, it was DEFINATELY Square’s aim to make him entertaining.

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If you want a REAL complex story line, watch Evangelion, it’s on a level much higher than any FF game.

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Or you could just play Xenogears.

Argument aside, This scene was so perfectly executed it made me change my view on Operah music. I now view it as a piece of art rather than a way to keep teenagers from hanging around 7-11.

FFVI isn't fully comedy.

Like ALL FFs it is dramatic at points, sad at points, and funny at points.

Keffka does appear to be comedic at first. But as he get's further in development he goes from being the joke to the villain and then to a complet psycho!

I completly agree with the main article.

Like I say. FF has comedy, Drama and Emotion all in the same games at the apropriate times

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Wow. That's deep.

You may be reading into it a bit too much...but I'll go with it.

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Thought I would jump in here and post my lil thoughts. Square has never hit me has being very origional. It is funny to see them try and nail the same story in different lights. Its like taco bell... sam stuff - different wrapping - and i still cannot get enough of it :) Little nicer on the digestive track though.

Anywho, I see this is very common amongst japanese storyies - the use of ancient lors or religions.. Specifically that with the tree of life. Evangelion for instance - the redone ending - Shinji actually becomes the center of the sepiroth wich makes him balance and human (or god) depending on your take. I see this farse of a tree mixed in with christanity a lot but really have never seen much of a connection.

The whole artificial human/weapon deal mentioned about celes, carries into cloud strife as well then to ViVi and possibly to Tidus...i guess. This is also a belief where an artificial life will disrupt or kill the tree of life, causeing a series of events blah blah - same as most other religions :)

The god of destruction deal with Kefka ties right into Sepiroth - (Qabbalah - Kabbalah) or the tree of life contains sepiroth - or small entities that make up a theoretical tree of life. http://www.crystalinks.com/kabala.html Although I run across many
The opera scene and theatre has a reacouring role through out the series as well.

Speaking of Kefka - He looks like a shakespearian mad man :) And the opera is nearly a rip off of Romeo and juliet revisited again in ff9 with the stage crew. I think Final Fantasy 8 was the most origonal... and mabey that is why it was so disliked?

Also - the giant tree in final fantasy IX - oh what did they call it :)

Just some preliminary drafted thoughts to toss in there - If anyone has more information on this tree of life, look at it and i bet it all ties more into the FF series and a ton of other anime/jap style stories.


Quick Evangelion ? here:
- Adam had one wife - Eve. No lilith. Cain was son of Adam and Eve, and killed his Brother Abel. The first recorded man driven sin. The man on the End of Evangelion commentary, said somthing like:
Adam had a wife named lilith whom was also created from the earth. They begot Cain, but god made Eve outta adams rib to be more loyal. Then cain killed able got sent to the land of Nod with his mother and they produced demons....
Kinda far fetched i know - but wth religion says all this - or was the guy full of it? It has been a while since i have seen the commentary, but i belive that that is close.

Bipper GOES!
I have proof
PS sorry for lack of neatness - was in a hurry and wanted to get my thoughts up :)

I was never able to take Kefka seriously. He was always a comic clown. He had his moments when he killed Leo and destroyed most of the world, but after that, he's out of the storyline for so long that when I faced him again, he was still a clown for me. His "self-help booklet" comment and other things like that, such as him jumping in rage and having tantrums, were merely amusing, and him going down in less than 2 turns (Edgar using Drill, Sabin using Bum Rush, the rest use normal attacks) didn't help much, especially when it's possible to defeat him even faster (with one attack, in fact).

The opera scene was a masterpiece, that's what I can say. When I saw it, I had never seen anything like than on a video game before. IMHO, it's one of the most beautiful music-related scenes in the series, just like FFX-2's tragic "Thousand Words" scene. The Aria and the dance were marvelous, and the duel music made for Draco vs. Ralse is also great, especially when it plays as the game switches to you trying to save Celes while Draco and Ralse are dueling. Apart from the synth opera voice, which I don't mind as it couldn't have been helped, I think there's only one part about the opera I don't like: Celes suddenly turning into a fully skilled opera singer. It takes 5-10+ years and a lot of practise to be able to sing like a real opera singer, and Celes does it all in 5 minutes? I know this is fantasy, but still...

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Originally Posted by bipper

Quick Evangelion ? here:
- Adam had one wife - Eve. No lilith. Cain was son of Adam and Eve, and killed his Brother Abel. The first recorded man driven sin. The man on the End of Evangelion commentary, said somthing like:
Adam had a wife named lilith whom was also created from the earth. They begot Cain, but god made Eve outta adams rib to be more loyal. Then cain killed able got sent to the land of Nod with his mother and they produced demons....
Kinda far fetched i know - but wth religion says all this - or was the guy full of it? It has been a while since i have seen the commentary, but i belive that that is close.

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Ok, this is really off topic, so I’ll keep it brief.

Lilith appears in the Jewish manuscript as the first wife Adam who was banished from Eden for being too sexually dominant. Being made from mud, just like Adam, she considered herself equal to him, and so she would bow to Adams every command. After she was banished, God created Eve from Adams rib, and they sired Cain and Abel. Cain would later slay Abel, and then proceeded to sire a race of deamons known as the Lilim.

Ok, now this is where Evangelion comes in. Basically the idea was that humanity was really this race of demons known as the Lilim (as stated by Kaworu Nagisa in episode 24). In other words, humanity was the ultimate evil. Nice…

So yes, he did know what he was talking about, this story has just been left out o the new testament in the hope for Christianity to further oppress women (strictly IMO, but still kind of true).

Sorry, that really was of topic, but I love Eva oh so much. I really must make some sort of thread that links eva with FF...

That definatley cleared it up.
I still don't get with jewish manuscript - Why would the Bible not have it, prehapse was it a parable, that jewish teachers often used? IMRO the bible stands correct, as it is said to be by Christ etc :) /shrug its all confusing enough!

But that makes Evangelion all the better - I had the boxed complete set - but i borrowed it to a guy at college and never got em back :( lol
IF you like the religious value of FF series check out Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Sorry to be off topic
(looks around blankly then raises an arm and yells FF rox!)

Bipper GOES

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Originally Posted by bipper

That definatley cleared it up.
I still don't get with jewish manuscript - Why would the Bible not have it, prehapse was it a parable, that jewish teachers often used? IMRO the bible stands correct, as it is said to be by Christ etc :) /shrug its all confusing enough!

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In the Bible, God created Adam in his own image. If they had included Lilith, they would have to state that women were equal to men in every respect, something that the Church has never been keen on. Actually, Lilith does appear in the Bible though; She appears as the demonic mother of all prostitutes that seduces men in there sleep and causes pregnant women to spontaneously abort their fetuses. Yes, the Bible isn’t too big on sexually dominant women…

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Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

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Originally Posted by bipper

That definatley cleared it up.
I still don't get with jewish manuscript - Why would the Bible not have it, prehapse was it a parable, that jewish teachers often used? IMRO the bible stands correct, as it is said to be by Christ etc :) /shrug its all confusing enough!

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In the Bible, God created Adam in his own image. If they had included Lilith, they would have to state that women were equal to men in every respect, something that the Church has never been keen on. Actually, Lilith does appear in the Bible though; She appears as the demonic mother of all prostitutes that seduces men in there sleep and causes pregnant women to spontaneously abort their fetuses. Yes, the Bible isn’t too big on sexually dominant women…

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yeah ... they kinda freak me out too!

This is getting way off topic, this thread is about Celes, Maria & Draco, and Final Fantasy VI, not Evangelion or the Bible.

I thought the opera house scene was very beautiful at the time, but I didn't make a huge deal out of it, just a very memorable cinematic. I'm not one to be particularly unaffected by scenes in games, and I found Kefka to be one of the most easy to despise villains in game history. I just never really thought of the opera scene as much more than Square taking an already great game and prettying it up.

The first time I played the opera scene, it was magical. My reasons mostly deal with the music, which I found to be so deep and fascinating that Square created a mini-society that you could actually experience life as an upper-class NPC in the game. I didn't really think about Celes's transformation until this thread. Thanks for opening my eyes to that.

I don't understand how FFVI could be a comedy. I can't remember anything in that game being that funny, except for Kefka's "You sound like chapters from a self-help booklet!" at the end. :\

Apart from Kefka, Ultros was the only comedic thing about FFVI.

Actually most of the main cast have some comedic facet to them in addition to their dramatic sides. Locke has his "treasure hunting," Edgar has his huge boner, Cayenne has his technical ineptitude, Gau is generally wacky, Setzer kidnaps opera singers by grabbing them right off the stage, Mog has major 'tude, Relm is beyond her years and totally hot, etc.

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Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

this story has just been left out o the new testament

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Why would it be in the New Testament? Genesis is at the beginning of the book.

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in the hope for Christianity to further oppress women (strictly IMO, but still kind of true).

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The whole reason the Lilith myth was created was to put forth the notion that any woman who wants to take charge of anything must be an evil demon.

hmm, I did forget a number of those traits. Clear sign that it's been too long since I played FFVI.

The Lilith myth has always interested me, probably because it's so seldom referenced in Western literature.

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

Actually most of the main cast have some comedic facet to them in addition to their dramatic sides. Locke has his "treasure hunting," Edgar has his huge boner, Cayenne has his technical ineptitude, Gau is generally wacky, Setzer kidnaps opera singers by grabbing them right off the stage, Mog has major 'tude, Relm is beyond her years and totally hot, etc.

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Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

this story has just been left out o the new testament

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Why would it be in the New Testament? Genesis is at the beginning of the book.

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in the hope for Christianity to further oppress women (strictly IMO, but still kind of true).

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The whole reason the Lilith myth was created was to put forth the notion that any woman who wants to take charge of anything must be an evil demon.

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Ok, you got me. I don’t know jack about Christianity, I just piece information together…

But it’s nice to see that someone hasn’t completely overlooked all of the comical aspects of FFVI, and tried to pass it off as “a serious, dark story”…

well, at its core, FFVI is pretty dark. World getting destroyed, ruler who wants to "create a monument to non-existence," that sort of thing. It does have a number of comic elements to lighten the mood, however, but I'd hardly call it a comedy.

Thought I would jump in here and post my ill thoughts.

ROUND, ROUND - LIKE A RECORD BABY
Square has never hit me has being very original. It is funny to see them try and nail the same story in different lights. Its like taco bell... same ingredients - different wrapping - and I still cannot get enough of it :) Little lighter on the digestive track though. I do not mean that in any negative way – I think the ideas are great and have not been too let down by the series. Below I will just briefly touch on three areas: literature types, FF repeats, and Religion in FF series.

OF SATIRE AND COMEDY
Speaking of Kefka - He looks like a Shakespearian mad man :) And the opera is nearly a rip off of the classic Shakespearian tragedy. Minus – a tragic ending.
And to clear up the word comedy for some – a Comedy in this case is more of a dramatic term, more overly Satirical comedy. – Focus more on the word satire here as this definition is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire:
Satire is a literary technique of writing or art which principally ridicules its subject (for example, individuals, organizations, or states) often as an intended means of provoking or preventing change. In Celtic societies, it was thought a bard's satire could have physical effects, similar to a curse. A satirist is one who satirizes. Satires need not be humorous – indeed, they are often tragic .
-- thought that might be useful?
Comedy is a literal term used to describe a play. They follow a distinct pattern that includes (but is never limited to):
1: Main Character Creates a bond (love, friendship, semimetal attachment) to a support Character
2: Character meets Antagonist
3: Character looses Support Character
4: A revaltion happens in which a Character has certain information reviled ( there is a greek term for this (deusex Macca or somelike that) which means something like answer lowered in basket.
5:Character beats the antagonist
6: Characters reunited
(Remembering a senior class I took – so I know details may be slightly off – my teacher would be so ashamed J )

I would call final fantasy more of an Epic Romance. There are multiple characters and all have their own type of story some tragedy some satirical and some pure irony. It would be pompous I think to say that the story is clear comedy or satire. When all of the stories are combined you come out with more of a romantic outcome :) (NOTE: I am not talking candlelight, roses, or professional wrestling here )

Again I am remembering this info from nearly 5 years ago so forgive me if some is a little off base


Bipper GOES!

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You may be reading into it a bit too much...but I'll go with it.

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That's because Square are the kind of people who want you to read into it.

Anyone who reads into something a lot is proof that the writers are good writers - not just games but books programes animes film, you name it.

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think Final Fantasy 8 was the most origonal... and mabey that is why it was so disliked?

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No game (FF or not) is truly origanl but they have some unique-ness. FFVIII wasn't disliked. At least not by me,

Squall's story about being alone an "used to it" seamed a bit soap-ish (for me that's a good thing) if EastEnders had sorcery and monsters it would be FFVIII.

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Also - the giant tree in final fantasy IX - oh what did they call it

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That would be "Iifa".

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well, at its core, FFVI is pretty dark. World getting destroyed, ruler who wants to "create a monument to non-existence," that sort of thing. It does have a number of comic elements to lighten the mood, however, but I'd hardly call it a comedy.

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As I already said All FFs (Among other things) have Dark moments and funny moments to. FFVII is about the planet being under threat from Mako and then by a Magic Meteor - But Cloud still has a transvestite scene. FFX has a massive monster destroying everything. - But They still go to "Macerena" temple. They are only 2 examples.

FF6 is not a joke! Like anything that's worth seeing either in a movie or a game, it has elements of a lot of things. Kefka was evil and funny. Sarcastic too. That's what made him so good! All the characters do have funny parts but that does not make the game a comedy. FF6 is serious business! Serious business (8) lol. See I'm being serious and I made a jk! lol FF6 has awesome deep and dark characters, but it has it's comedic relief. Kinda like Jarjar in star wars 1. uhhh except that the characters are actually funny, and it's a videogame, and it doesn't suck poopoo.

I'll admit I did not read all the posts following the beginning one, but wanted to comment on how well-written and thought out I thought the initial post of this thread was. I never thought of it that way, but am sure the next time I play, this new insight will add something. I've never liked Celes much. This gives her a bit more depth. Neat.

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Originally Posted by Daryl

the next time I play, this new insight will add something. I've never liked Celes much. This gives her a bit more depth. Neat.

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Well then this thread is a success.

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For all intents and purposes, Celes is a monster. She is a living weapon, artifically altered to become a destructive killing tool.

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That's so very true. With her being "augmented" as she put it. Also, in her introduction, it said, "Product of genetic engineering." and she's identical to another girl in the game. A clone maybe, bred for destruction?

In my opinion, (FF3 is my favorite in the series) all of the ff games I've played so far have been pretty good.

3 is my favorite for a few reasons. Even though there are many times where comedy is thrown into FF3, and I see it in this game more than most, I think there is a very negative tone to the game. I'm pretty sure this is just my personal interpretation, and that everyone's going to see the game differently, but I really felt the struggle of the characters in this game.

From the world of balance turning to the world of ruin, the personal losses of each character, the baggage each character carried but ignored in order to drudge onward, the falling of different towns and separation of the characters, down to the very music most of the game, it gave me a strong negative feeling, like the characters in the game really were struggling the whole time (even if 16-bit really cant show that on their faces :D )

I think Gau, Ultros, and Kefka (at times) were meant to ease some of the negative tension in the game, but for the majority of the time, it seems to hold a "we're screwed no matter what we do" tone to it, from each characters losses in the past (locke's rachel, cyan's family, etc.) to towns like Narshe feeling they were at a loss whether they fought or not.

Again, I'm sure I just like the negative tone it gives because it shows the struggle in the game, and since that's what I like, i notice it more. Everyones different, right?


also, to the guy on the first page who said no FF game is that deep or hard to grasp...basically called the whole series simple, I'm sorry, but have you ever played FFT?

I still cant tell you whats going on half the time outside of Ramza, all those other characters killing each other and whos alive at the end and whos not and who is using who..

heck they give you a whole page dedicated to updated profiles of like 40+characters just incase you have no clue whats going on anymore..

even a compilation of old videos should you want to see what happened again.

i think all of the games have some depth (with maybe the exception of say FF for nintendo) but if you want a raw example of complexity, that sure must be it

Edit by Kishi: Don't double-post.

interesting theory but i always thought maria/ celes was representing rachael. the lyrics:
"We must part now. My life goes on.
But my heart won't give you up.
Ere I walk away, let me hear you say.
I meant as much to you...
So gently, you touched my heart.
I will be forever yours.
Come what may, I won't age a day.
I'll wait for you, always..."
i wont age a day? sounds like rachael to me, maybe im just missing something

To me, Celes' attempted suicide was the most dramatic scene in a Final Fantasy game to date. No, scratch that. It was the most dramatic scene anywhere, ever.
And anyone who dares to compare that piece of chocobo [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] known as FF7 to this game should be beaten with a saguaro cactus. >:

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Originally Posted by cc_ask

interesting theory but i always thought maria/ celes was representing rachael. the lyrics:
"We must part now. My life goes on.
But my heart won't give you up.
Ere I walk away, let me hear you say.
I meant as much to you...
So gently, you touched my heart.
I will be forever yours.
Come what may, I won't age a day.
I'll wait for you, always..."
i wont age a day? sounds like rachael to me, maybe im just missing something

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I've thought that for a while. Don't know any validity of it, though.

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Originally Posted by Guitar Woman

To me, Celes' attempted suicide was the most dramatic scene in a Final Fantasy game to date. No, scratch that. It was the most dramatic scene anywhere, ever.
And anyone who dares to compare that piece of chocobo [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] known as FF7 to this game should be beaten with a saguaro cactus. >:

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Lol, you don’t play many games/watch many movies/live in general if you think that Celes’ suicide scene is the most dramatic scene ever…

I think you’ll find that there are far more people how would vote for Aeris’ Death as the most dramatic FF moment over Celes’ little fit any day. The only reason FF7 isn’t held in high regard now days as it was when it was first released is:

1. Sephiroth Fanboys
2. Idiots that think by glorifying Classic FF games and [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img]ting all over the mainstream ones it somehow makes them superior.

You can say that Celes’ suicide attempt was ever so dramatic and treasure it as ‘the greatest FF scene ever’, but in the end it was simply just a way for the game to tell you that you just f@#$ed up a mini game.

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but nobody swoons over Leo.

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I love Leo. I have swooned over his mature talk with little Terra.
maybe not so much...

I would say that FF6 has one of the better endings of the games (especially the more recent ones), I actually felt some closure at the end. Most of the younger games have you wondering what happens to the main characters at the end. I think during the ending you also get to see each charcter as they developed throughout. While some might not have changed a whole lot (Cyan's ineptness at machinery)... some have changed soo-o-o-o-ooooo much. Watching the character's grow and change can make ANY game a good one. Yeah, Aeris died... it was a change. Yeah, Squall finally loosens up... CHANGE. Yeah, Steiner loosened up too! MORE CHANGE! I think that for any game to have you (the player) relate to some character in some sort of way means it is a good game. As Necron noticed that Celes made a change and other stuff (which was highly insightful and very well-written BTW) he had a type of connection and realized that she changed. When you get the static main character ... ::ahem::cloud... that doesn't change (except for his clothes) it makes things a little less "connected!"

That's just MHO but I think that people should agree with the statement that as long as you can connect with someone in a video game in one way or another, you think it is a good game.

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You can say that Celes’ suicide attempt was ever so dramatic and treasure it as ‘the greatest FF scene ever’, but in the end it was simply just a way for the game to tell you that you just f@#$ed up a mini game.

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Oops, was that "saving Cid" thing a minigame? :lol:


And I don't hate on FF7 because it's mainstream. I hate on it because it SUCKS. The other mainstream FF's are allright. Especially 9.
Zidane ^_^

The moral of the story is that FFVI is better than FFVII in every aspect, except, of course, graphics. Sorry, that's the way it is.

But other'n that. Celes and her inner struggle, including the suicide attempt, were much more dramatic than Aeris being shiskabobbed on a big dumb sword. With Aeris, it's just this ignorant, innocent little girl that has completely unrealistic dreams. With Celes, you have a soldier, bred to be a warrior, so different from everybody else, but who shows that she still has the emotions and feelings of normal people, and strives to join them -- not lead them, not do her own thing, but to be a part of something greater.

Not to mention Suicide Vs. Murder.

The opera scene made me love the game more..The whole concept of it, it's so exciting, dramatic, touching..It is just so perfect!

Celes is one of my favorites characters..She's s been through many things, however she managed to overcome the problems, and "found out" her real self..I have always believed that Locke did play a major role on it..
That's why <3 Locke-Celes relationship..

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

The moral of the story is that FFVI is better than FFVII in every aspect, except, of course, graphics. Sorry, that's the way it is.

But other'n that. Celes and her inner struggle, including the suicide attempt, were much more dramatic than Aeris being shiskabobbed on a big dumb sword. With Aeris, it's just this ignorant, innocent little girl that has completely unrealistic dreams. With Celes, you have a soldier, bred to be a warrior, so different from everybody else, but who shows that she still has the emotions and feelings of normal people, and strives to join them -- not lead them, not do her own thing, but to be a part of something greater.

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Lol, you shouldn’t try to pass your opinions off as fact. That post reeks of bias…

Anyway, I still say that a murder is far more dramatic than a attempted suicide, isn’t that logical? It doesn’t really matter which character you think was superior ( for the record, I like Celes better than Aeris as well…) .

Then go with General Leo.

I agree. The ideas of murder and suicide... murder is un-asked for, but its also very sudden. There wasn't really a whole lot surrounding Aeris' murder. It just happened. With Celes there were reasons and story. Stuff to sink your teeth in. If they had set up a small plot detail surrounding Aeris' death... (god imagine the raves over it then). Celes' suicide was just set up better I think.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Then go with General Leo.

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But General Leo wasn't a main character, thus there wasn't as much attachment...