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that was the quetion thousands of people asked after the london bombings. it was of course those nasty muslim immigrants legal or not.
and so it turns out that they weren't immigrants but british born. they were never let in. they were already here.
now this isn't a thread about the london bombings. it is about the fear of every foreigner, muslim, immigrant and colored person.
isn't it a sign of racism in this country when outsiders are blamed for everything?
People are too caught up in invisible borders. We're all on the same planet.
But, no, it's not racism. It's ethnocentrism. Or something.
Ethnocentrism breeds racism. Personally, I think this is racism, although a more mild form of it. People are naturally hateful, and if they can have an excuse to be hateful, mark my words, they WILL take it.
But as Shlup said, we're all on the same planet, and we're all the same. Unfortunately, most of us are stupid fools, but we can't do much about that.
Isn't it called xenophobia? :confused:
I know that I for one didn't say that the London bombers were immigrants. I just said there should be tighter controls on immigration, as terrorists can get in that way. Admittedly it doesn't deal with the problem of home grown terrorists, but it's still a potential threat that urgently needs to be dealt with.
As for blaming outsiders for everything, that has been going on for centuries. Like right after the Great Fire of London in the 1600's the French and the Dutch were blamed. It's human nature and it's not going to change any time soon. It's a way for people to cope with disasters.
look i don't want to sound horrible but the country should be more strict with immigration laws even kick out illegal immigrants who've been here for years fair or not.
sure muslims bombed us because england aint muslim but steretyping doesn't help they should work on enforcing these laws. these attacks made a mockery of the immigration enforcements of england.
remember the quota system? it should be similar to that but less strict makes it fair safe don't you agree?
What? Why?Quote:
these attacks made a mockery of the immigration enforcements of england.
Oh, just a point I didn't pick up on earlier. Cloud no. 9's post makes it seem like racism is a purely white thing. Frankly, it isn't. I know more than one Muslim who wouldn't give white people the time of day. Now, you can say "Hey, that's because white people attack Muslims!" but A) You can just as easily say "Non-Muslims are racist thanks to Muslim attacks on non-Muslims!" and B) Two wrongs don't make a right anyway. You hear about racist attacks on white people in Britain's northern towns like Bradford and Oldham all the time. I'm not saying that white people do not attack those of other races, but you can't say that white people are the only racists, which is what Cloud No. 9's post seems to say. I find it interesting that he uses the word "racism" in relation to them, as racism means "Discrimination or prejudice based on race." I could go as far as to say that Cloud No. 9's post was racist, by implying that white people are the only racists he is being prejudiced against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No. 9
Actually I think this has more to do with that fact that one does not want to believe that people they know and such could do such things.
You DON'T want it to be able to be your next door neighbor with whom you play billards with every week.
Let me see if I can make it easily understood(since I seem to make little sense at times).
When something happens you first blame someone you don't know. This is because one does not want to believe that they have been betrayed, that even your next door neighbor could be a terriorist.
And of course who in this world at this time is an easy scapegoat for terriorist attacks? Seems like foreign arabs are a popular choice.
because they werent supposed to be here in the first place and how they actually got the explosives into the country or how they got the things at all thats how
Illegal Immigration is not the problem here. Illegal Immigration & international terrorism are not linked in any way shape or form. As was seen an 9/11, Madrid & now London, every terrorist was there legally. Stop confusing the two. The myth that poverty leads to terrorism is too false. Most of the 9/11 bombers were of middle class backgrounds. Bin Laden himself was born into great wealth.
One Man's Terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The IRA here often get called terrorist, some would say rightly so. If that IS so then why wern't the French & various other nations' Resistence fighters during WWII terrorists? The acts & situations are striking similar to the situation here.
If the Resistence fighters AREN'T terrorists. What differentiates the two? Who's job is it to differentiate them? I don't recall the RAF looking for a military target in the Dresden Bombings, their sole aim was to 'destroy the German will to fight' by killing innocents. It never worked then & it won't work now with what the Islamic Jihad fighters want. So the deliberate killing of innocent people isn't the reason why there is a difference.
I believe the difference is simple. A terrorist organisation is any military organisation that isn't State Organised. We all know it isn't just 'terrorists' that can cause terror. Israeli Gunships & British Armoured Cars can do that adequatly enough without being outlawed.
Now we come to the bones of it all. An ideology, of any shape or form, warped or pure of heart, will find a way to surface whether State Sponsored or not. One that is motivated by religion is just as dangerous as one motivated by politics or territory. Beliefs will find a voice, if that voice is ignored or silenced, pen will turn to sword & that belief along with it's followers will harden. It's views become stronger & exaggerated and turn to mistrust then hatred of anyone not of likemind.
These Bombers were men of flesh & blood like us. They had a childhood like us. They probably laughed & joked like us. What was it in their lives that made them believe taking a bomb to a train full of civilians & blowing themselves along with the civilians was a righteous act? What made Harris believe obliterating the civilian population of Dresden was a righteous act? What made Hitler believe Genocide was rightious? And Hiroshima & Nagasaki? What about Bloody Sunday?
The is no one answer. This has been the human race since we left Africa. We all follow something. Whether religion, politics, nationalism, racism etc etc etc. We've never been short of a reason to kill & we never will. People blaming murder on one thing or another is the human brain trying to understand. We will never understand. Once Islamic Fundamentalism dies. Another form will rise. The best we can do as open minded human is to live & treat other like we ourselves would want to be treated & hope it spreads to enough other likeminded people to make the Ideologistic amonst us a minority.
This was rambled, I know but it was a realtime typed thought process. If it makes no sense, I apologise.
In all fairness, its almost always ONLY the stupid fools people take notice off despite the huge amount of decent people around. Thats even the reason why people blame Muslims in general for some idiotic extremeists.Quote:
Originally Posted by nik0tine
shoden: they weren't supposed to be here? because this is a pure white area?
and exploseives aren't made from some foreign chemical from the depths of the jungle. you can actually make it from fertilizer. it's what the ira did. so there's no reason to say that this explosive was foreign.
bombs and bombers we can make in this country. hell i can make one.
immigration enforcements would not have prevented this attack. these people were born here. they've always lived here. and the chances are that the explives were made here. and if they weren't they aren't part of the immigration system. they were probably smuggled in. not as part of an asylum seekers luggage. and the talks of a foreign al-qaeda cell operator who readied them for the attack. he could have been here claiming to be on holiday. he could have carried nothing dangerous and so nothing wold have stopped him coming in.
quotas would not have prevented this attack even if it was performed by immigrants. don't quotas limit wher they can come from and what use they are to the country? i doubt in the skills section of the form they would have "bringing death to infidel scum". they might be doctors or engineers perfectly good at english too. but with nasty habit of wanting to blow people up. it would be undetectable.
so what use really is branding all immigrants as potential terrorists?
and psychotic this post isn't racist. it is only half about race. it is about the targeting and scape-goating of asylum seekers. the reason why it is about race is that different skin color can make these people easier to spot (not saying all colored people are immigrants (well they are over generations)) oh you know what i mean.
Since when do explosives immigrate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoden
What was seen in America is now being seen in England. Something like this is a horrific act, and while it can bring out the best in some, it often brings out the worst in others. Right now the English people need a scapegoat, as the Americans did (and, one might say, still do). They have one in the Arabs. An enemy to unite against and destroy, to demonize, to de-humanize, it is something we as humans are far too prone to do.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulainn
If people want to immigrate to your country, that's a sign that your country is doing well. If the waves of immigrants cause problems, governments should find creative solutions to put the immigrants to good use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchulainn
Thank God, because if the terrorists realized we have a ungaurded border with mexico that thousands of illegals cross safely everday. We'd have a wave of bombings worse than Israel gets.
Terrorists are well aware of your border situations & despite, as you say, them being 'unguarded', have never ONCE entered America by that route.
Either you're paranoid & the border isn't THAT bad OR, and you'll like this, Illegal Immigration to a country you need to be in for a few years to plan & act on a terrorist attack is POSSIBLY a bad & dangerous way to go about it. It's easier to enter legally. You aren't on the run, you have legal documents etc etc.
OR you COULD be a citizen. It used to be the case where Jihad was never carried out by residents of the same country being attacked. But recently that has been binned. Now they're homegrown. No more Covenant of Security.
There's nothing really left to be said bar reitterate my point, Illegal Immigration & Internation Terrorism aren't linked in any way, other than coincidence. While both problematic, they are seperate problems with seperate solutions.
Not at all. When a massive percentage of terrorists in the world today happen to be Muslim and often Arab as well, that fear is well based, I think. I wouldn't say treating every Muslim and Arab as a potential terrorist - but groups of these people should be watched more carefully, as they have proven themselves to have some... ill-sentiments towards the west, and various... unlawful actions these sentiments have led them to do.Quote:
isn't it a sign of racism in this country when outsiders are blamed for everything?
Yes, it's not a very nice thing to categorise people and watch them like they're out to get you... but these are dire times, and we're not talking about some mass killings or mass banishment of Muslims within Britain and\or other western nations - simply being on the lookout, watching these communities more carefully because of their tendency to produce terrorist and support terrorist activities.
I'd agree with the above statement. Anybody notice in America how more and more mosques pop up every day? I mean gosh - if the Islamics wanted to take over the US they probably could... they have enough bases.
What bothers me is the Islamics that come over to the US and demand that the 10 Commandments be taken out of courthouses saying that it is "infringing on their rights to have to look at it." Well, isnt it infringing on my rights TO have it there? If they don't like it, they dont have to look at it as far as I'm concerned. It's radicals that come to the US and use their "rights" to take away my right to have the 10 commandments that scares me. We have to face it- pretty much all "non islamic" nations (and by that I mean nations that have non-islamic leaders) are at risk right now, because some underground guy we dont know about declares a Jihad. I saw this thing on TV yesterday with this Islamic guy saying that he viewed the 9-11 attacks as a "Holy Attack on the Infidels". He beleives it was a good thing. I felt like finding this guy and just beating the living tar out of him.
So am I racist? No. I dont hate muslims. Am I scared of them? Yes. I agree- there is a difference between racism and rational fear.
but it isn't a rational fear. it's grouping an entire people because of a few and being scared of them. and irrational fear is racism.
are we really saying all muslims are to be feared because of a few bad eggs? and not just some muslims say 9-11 as a good thing. many people from lots of different backgrounds and faiths saw it as a strike against america and a good thing.
Well, I honestly don't see any reason why the 10 commandments should be there in the first place. The removal of the 10 commandments would be a good thing and as long as they don't want them to be replaced with Mohammed quotes, I agree with them. Although, aren't muslims supposed to believe in the 10 commandments aswell?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
subtract mosques for synagogues and 'Islamics' [sic] for Jews and you have yourself the first throws of Germany in the 1920s, early thirties. You really need to wind you neck in. This is where it starts. Pretty soon we'll have McCarthy style paranoia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Regarding the 10 Commandments in Courthouses. Why are they there? I thought America took great pride in being secular. Religion & Law are not happy bedfellows.
Okay... So most terrorists are Muslims, therefore the fear of Muslims is well based? I don't think that statement could be any more ignorant.Quote:
Not at all. When a massive percentage of terrorists in the world today happen to be Muslim and often Arab as well, that fear is well based, I think.
The Islamics do this? :pQuote:
What bothers me is the Islamics that come over to the US and demand that the 10 Commandments be taken out of courthouses saying that it is "infringing on their rights to have to look at it.
Oh please... Nobody is in any danger. We weren't in danger before 9/11, and we aren't in danger now. If you truly fear something as obscure as a terrorist attack, then you really need to wake up to reality. Terrorist attacks happen very seldom, and they are impossible to prevent. Why fear what you cannot change?Quote:
We have to face it- pretty much all "non islamic" nations (and by that I mean nations that have non-islamic leaders) are at risk right now, because some underground guy we dont know about declares a Jihad.
...Quote:
We weren't in danger before 9/11, and we aren't in danger now. If you truly fear something as obscure as a terrorist attack, then you really need to wake up to reality. Terrorist attacks happen very seldom, and they are impossible to prevent. Why fear what you cannot change?
I truly hope you haven't the audacity to say something like that outside the Net. Otherwise, you'd be sure to get your knee-caps taken as a souvenir by at least a few people who lost loved ones to terror attacks, or even someone who was 'just' wounded, or went into shock. Really, I could understand why Americans thought they were untouchable before the 911 events... but now? After a few thousands died, and two big f*king sky-scrapers went down? Seriously, wake up into reality. There are a gazillion people out there in the world who want to kil YOU, personally, simply because of your nationality and affilliations. Just a week or so ago, more than 50 people were killed in London. 3 days ago, 4 died here, and over a 100 were wounded. Good God, wake up! These attacks don't occur very seldom, they occur FAR too much for comfort, and even one man dead by the hands of those murderers, is too much! And terrorist attacks can be very much prevented and fought against - you just have to want to fight, and not be a head-in-the-sand pansy.
Exactly. A few Great White sharks eat humans, and they are all freaking big with huge mouths and teeth - so we fear them. So are Muslims - there's a small yet far too large percentage among them that are terrorists, and they are well-armed with both weapons and convictions, and they can strike wherever and whenever they want. So, we fear them. Fear is the first step in acting towards a threat. I'm not talking about a McArthy-style sanctions, just keeping an eye out, being cautious.Quote:
So most terrorists are Muslims, therefore the fear of Muslims is well based?
Jews didn't build a synagogue every freaking second, nor did they express ill-sentiments (not to say hatred) towards their country, and they most certainly didn't blow themselves up and kill others.Quote:
subtract mosques for synagogues and 'Islamics' [sic] for Jews and you have yourself the first throws of Germany in the 1920s, early thirties.
Thats because bush is an ass that doesn't do anything...
I would say he does a bit too much already.Quote:
Originally Posted by crash26821
Quote:
Originally Posted by crash26821
I'd like to see you back that up with proof.
"Oh please... Nobody is in any danger. We weren't in danger before 9/11, and we aren't in danger now. If you truly fear something as obscure as a terrorist attack, then you really need to wake up to reality. Terrorist attacks happen very seldom, and they are impossible to prevent. Why fear what you cannot change?"
And you'r calling ME ignorant? So theres a threat of terror attacks on our nation.... hundreds of people could possibly be killed in the future but theres NO reason to worry! Here's a bit of reality for you- terror attacks happen every day, wether in the US or not. They happen in Iraq, Palastine, London- lots of places. Terrorism is a big deal, and yes, I do fear muslims because of what they teach. They teach that Jihad in the name of Allah is acceptable and that what they are doing is OKAY. THERE IS A REASON TO BE AFRAID. I'd go as far to say that anybody who doesnt have at least a little fear torwards the muslim culture is either ignorant or very un-informed. And this is in no way a personal attack on you- thats not sarcasm. I'm just saying that there is a logical fear behind this.
We should be careful not to tar with the same brush.Quote:
I do fear muslims because of what they teach. They teach that Jihad in the name of Allah is acceptable and that what they are doing is OKAY. THERE IS A REASON TO BE AFRAID. I'd go as far to say that anybody who doesnt have at least a little fear torwards the muslim culture is either ignorant or very un-informed.
Islam is a faith which preaches tolerance and love. In wake of the terrorist attacks,Muslim leaders have expressed their deep revulsion and contempt for the perpetrators.The extremists who murder and maim innocent people do not represent thetrue Islamic faith -they are a small minority of extremists who pervert Islam's doctrines to justify their evil ambitions.True Muslims, the majority,would never approve of this kind of murder.
If you can't accept that then you are wallowing in ignorance and paranoia.
... and killing everyone who doesn't agree. Seriously, there is little 'love and tolerance' in the Koran, in much the same way there's little 'love and tolerance' in the Bible (the original one, not the New Testament). Those two books are about ultimate justice - and the Koran's ultimate justice involves a lot of killing, especially of heretics, and in the name of Allah, an action which is called Jihad, and is one of the six main pedestals upon which Islam is founded on. That's not criticism, just yet - merely saying how things are.Quote:
Islam is a faith which preaches tolerance and love.
Now, there are always those who take what was written down with some sanity, not doing everything literally. Otherwise, even Jews would be slaying one another for planting vegetables on the wrong field... However, the stream in Islam which teaches it 'as is' is growing far too strong, and has grown drastically over the passing years. We call it 'radical Islam' because to us, it is indeed radical. But I fear it is not so radical in the eyes of a hardcore Muslim believer. This is where we start seeing lots of people going into the terror business, in the name of Jihad and Allah.
The New Testament is filled with quite a lot of death and destruction, too. Or are you a Christian?Quote:
Originally Posted by War Angel
He's Jewish I believe. From Israel, Kind of why I've started ignoring most of which he writes about Islam. It's hard to see outside the eye of the storm. Not impossible, but hard.
I was under the impression it doesn't teach those are solutions to certain problems. Perhaps I need to refresh my knowledge.Quote:
The New Testament is filled with quite a lot of death and destruction, too.
*points to his location, which is the absolute truth* Even though, to me, it's not really that holy, just really really important culturally, historicaly and emotionally.Quote:
Or are you a Christian?
terrorism is not a real problem. 3,000 americans in one day may be a tragedy. but it is not the world's end. and it was going to happen at one point in time anyway. like the oklahamo bomb. some nutter is always gonna want to blow stuff up. but we do not need to stereotype these people for the case of a few nutters. to stereotype an entire race and religion over one day's violence no matter how evil is not worth it.
and about the koran being such a nasty book. it really isn't. while it may have some nasty violent parts, so does the bible. a little list is needed here.
jericho
sodom and ghomorrah
wiping out every first born son in egypt.
that whole noah thing was a bit ott
wiping out the egyptian army in the red sea.
and the torah says the same. and some of the koran has similar stuff. a few battles. a bit of destruction. and some good bits with tolerance, loving thy neighbour and enemy and all that kinda stuff.
and it all depends on the interpertation. some people will agree with the old testament. others will not. some will follow the koran to the very letter. some will deviate. some people will always use the religious texts to preach hate. but this was not their real purpose and still is not their purpose. it is an abuse of a religion. in the same way we have these islamic nutters in israel in palestine you have right wing jewish nuts, and here we have right wing christain head cases to. but these people are few and far between when all things are considered and are not worth stereotyping people over.
"Jews didn't build a synagogue every freaking second, nor did they express ill-sentiments (not to say hatred) towards their country, and they most certainly didn't blow themselves up and kill others."
so all muslims are to be punished for a few bad eggs? how about we just knock down these mosques and we can build a car park over a few. somewhere else they did that.... berlin. and i express ill sentiments towards america. so are all british people now evil? there's far too many of us i say. we set up places for us to practice our religions freely and all sorts of badness. out we all go, very dangerous are we with our places of worhsip and not liking america. yeah..... because all british people are evil now because what i say. even if they were a thousand more like me (which there are) it's still of no concequence.
what's wrong with building places of worship? what's wrong with not liking a country? and certainly what is wrong with being muslim?
All those stories come from the Old Testament, which, from what I understand, is simply the mythos of Christianity. The New Testament, on the other hand, is the ethos. With the exception of the Ten Commandments, very few Christians take the Old Testament to heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
All of those stories are from the Old Testament, but they are also from the Torah (which is the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures, what the Christians refer to as "The Old Testament"). Just to make sure we're clear on the matter.
And the New Testament gets a lot of praise for being a happy, more merciful version of the Old Testament, but I really hate that stance. Growing up in a Jewish household, I can assure you that the "Old Testament" has a lot of the happy-feeling passages, just like the New Testament. Also like the New Testament, it has a lot of death and destruction.
War Angel - Jesus is claimed to be a complete pascifist, but his arguments tend to be of the angry, annoyed side. Jesus just took the more literal punishments of the past and made them spiritual. No longer will he "dash your little ones against the ground", but now he'll make you pluck out your eye if you're using it to sin, lest you go to his Hell.
Besides, any Christian who doesn't take the Old Testament seriously is a pretty bad Christian. Considering Jesus himself said that he was coming to fulfill the old prophecies (not destroy them), and that Jesus is supposed to be the same as God the Father.
If Islam is an evil, evil religion fuled by the monstrocities found in the Qu'ran, then Judaism and Christianity are just as bad.
hell in it's self is a pretty crappy idea. eternal damnation for a believe? what about all those folks in india and australia and stuff that never even heard of jesus til they were discovered. gonna burn for that? that's not very nice.
this thread seems to be one of the very very few in which me and hachifusa echo each other.
and lets not forget hindhuism, that has some pretty nasty stuff in it too.
I'm pretty disappointed here...I came here to have a fun time, to write about games and stuff. While people always blame moslims even here. I myself am moslim from Irak living in Holland for about 7 years. I'm born on 11th of september. Does this make me a crazy girl who's trying to destroy the world with bombs and stuff? Hell no!
Have you guys even ask yourselves why these people are doing this? Isn't it because President Bush and his army is in Iraq (okay, okay...not Bush himself, but you get the picture). Isn't it because he had a lame excuse that there are very dangerous weapons there? Well? Where are the weapons now? And what is Bush doing in Irak at the moment? While you guys are very down with England, these kind of things happen in Iraq all the time. Do you care about Iraq? No, ofcourse! Because Iraq is full of Moslims whose lives aren't important enough. So, some of the the Moslims in Iraq blame Bush and others and try to strike back!
Don't understand me wrong, i'm not happy about all the bad things happening in the world and am certanly not happy about the Moslims who don't think before they act. But don't give all the blame to moslims before asking yourselves why they are doing this.
Glad someone else recognizes this fact. Believe me, I'm not paranoid exclusively towards Islam, I expect Judaism and Christianity to be just as dangerous in many ways. But as it stands, there aren't so many Jews and Christians running around blowing themselves up nowadays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachifusa
no, they blow other people up from the safety of tanks and airplanes.
i never supported the war in iraq. i do support us being there now though. we screwed up. we shouldn't have screw up. but we did. and so now we have to fix that dandy little mess we have made.
somee of you really need to have a more open mind. Just because some of the suicide bombers are islamic does not mean that all muslims are suicide bombers. You cant judge a whole group by the reactions of one person. There are over 1 billion muslims worldwide, how many suicide bombers have there been altogether, a couple of hundred maybe. Its like saying that if serial killers kill because of something said in the bible then all christians are evil fanatics. You just cant do this. Look at the crusades. Christian people killed thousands of people in the holy lands. They said it was for christiantiy but they really did it to rape, loot and kill. Im a good christian but i can happily admit that christians have done many wrong things. So are you just going to listen to paranoid tabaloids that say blame it on islam?
why do they bomb us but if we were them id think that the u.s sucks but i don't see because i'd probley be one of them but whats there next target New york?
can someone translate that for me?
i uh sorta got the words mixed up my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
realy being an atheast i think all religions are stupid, all they do i giv ppl a reason 2 fight and argue with each other, how many wars have been started through religion ?, i dont think that all muslums should be blamed 4 what has happened just the few extreamsts who have been blowing things up, personally i dont even know any muslims, how many of you's do ? if u read the Qu'ran it basicly sez that u go 2 hell if u commit suicide ?
i think what some radicals have been doing is disgusting, but u cant blame a whole race of ppl. i mean look at that guy who was shot 8 times in the head at point blank range becoz he was "belived" 2 be a suicide bomber, however they use stun guns on know terrorists ?
but one thing i do not understand is: why are they doing this, what duz it accomplish ? it's not as if its one group saying "giv us a £100000 or we'll blow stuff up" or "let such-and-such out of jail or we'll blow stuff up" it just breeds more hatred ?
I see what you're thinking. First of all i am one of these moslims (so now you know one :) ).Quote:
Originally Posted by ultima88
In our Qu'ran there's not even a word about suicide. It's even wrong to kill yourself, for you will go to hell for sure.
The people who are commiting suicide are using our religion as an excuse to kill others, or they are trying to give us a bad name (well, they are doing a good job on that one).
And they are doing this because they think that these people hate our religion (to give them a lesson) or make them feel how we are hurt thanks to Bush.
I hope you have a better view about moslims now :D