A problem with the R=U theory.

I was thinking through some of the game's dialogue, when all of a sudden I realized that some of it threw a real wrench in the works of the R=U theory. Specifically, the flashbacks dealing with Laguna and Edea. If you remember, it was stated that Esthar soldiers were looking for a "successor" to Adel. Now, if sorceresses can live indefinitely as long as they don't pass on their powers, which is something that the R=U theory seems to take for granted, why would Adel be looking for a successor? Adel doesn't strike me as the type to just hand her powers over to anyone and die unless she has no other choice. She's not much of a people person, and not much into sharing. If she could live forever, she would. The idea of her looking for a successor means that she is going to die, and she wants some say in what happens to her powers when she does. And if she was looking for a successor, the lifespan of a sorceress can't be too much longer than that of a normal person, since the successor would be dead long before Adel otherwise. Nothing else really makes sense.

Adel would only be looking for a successor if she was expecting to die at some point. Obviously sorceresses don't live forever. But the R=U theory accepts the idea that sorceresses age differently than humans but don't necessarily live forever. It clutches at straws a bit because their only evidence is that Edea, Rinoa and Ultimecia look young for their age. Especially if you compare Cid to Edea. Assuming that their supposed to be more or less the same age, Cid does look a lot older.

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Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy

Adel would only be looking for a successor if she was expecting to die at some point. Obviously sorceresses don't live forever. But the R=U theory accepts the idea that sorceresses age differently than humans but don't necessarily live forever. It clutches at straws a bit because their only evidence is that Edea, Rinoa and Ultimecia look young for their age. Especially if you compare Cid to Edea. Assuming that their supposed to be more or less the same age, Cid does look a lot older.

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If sorceresses age differently, then, as I said, any successor she picked would be dead before Adel could hand her powers over.

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Originally Posted by topic

A problemw ith the R=U theory.

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It's not true. That's a pretty big problem right there.

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Originally Posted by rubah

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Originally Posted by topic

A problemw ith the R=U theory.

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It's not true. That's a pretty big problem right there.

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??? What on Earth are you talking about, rubah?! There were no typos in the thread title...

Rubah is just saying that she doesn't believe the whole R=U theory.

the R-U theory is unproven and false.SHUT UP DAMMIT ABOUT SMEGGIN R-U THEORY. IT IS UNTRUE.i agree with rubah.

Yes, it is a problem, and it isn't the only one either. The bottomline is that it isn't all too likely that sorceresses age slower than normal people, but there's one thing that could contest against this particular argument:

Perhaps Adel was in fact possessed by Ultimecia. After all, it seems like a rather odd coincedence that both Ultimecia and Adel were searching for Ellone. Ultimecia used Edea for her search, so is it not possible she also used Adel? I mean, look at how Ellone is treated; looked up in some research facility without any care at all. Hardly the kind of care you'd expect given to someone who's supposed to take over after you're dead, no?

One thing which could explain the odd coincidence is that Ellone just happened to be the only potential sorceress they could find, but that seems a little bit odd. Perhaps she was searching for Ellone because she was possessed by Ultimecia, and she had Ellone put in a research facility to try and awaken Ellones dorman powers(she was very young, so she might not have learnt of her powers yet).

This is naturally pure speculation, so it doesn't show anything conlusively, but it's interesting to think about anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Perhaps Adel was in fact possessed by Ultimecia. After all, it seems like a rather odd coincedence that both Ultimecia and Adel were searching for Ellone.

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I dun think Adel is possessed by anyone when she first started her search for Ellone since if I remember correctly they are looking for little girls and not a specific girl.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Ultimecia used Edea for her search, so is it not possible she also used Adel? I mean, look at how Ellone is treated; looked up in some research facility without any care at all. Hardly the kind of care you'd expect given to someone who's supposed to take over after you're dead, no?

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Adel became more interested in Ellone's ability than the succession thing when Odine researched her when she is a kid. That is why she is so anxious when Laguna told her Ellone is in the sorceress memorial and she just barged it.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Yes, it is a problem, and it isn't the only one either. The bottomline is that it isn't all too likely that sorceresses age slower than normal people, but there's one thing that could contest against this particular argument:

Perhaps Adel was in fact possessed by Ultimecia. After all, it seems like a rather odd coincedence that both Ultimecia and Adel were searching for Ellone. Ultimecia used Edea for her search, so is it not possible she also used Adel? I mean, look at how Ellone is treated; looked up in some research facility without any care at all. Hardly the kind of care you'd expect given to someone who's supposed to take over after you're dead, no?

One thing which could explain the odd coincidence is that Ellone just happened to be the only potential sorceress they could find, but that seems a little bit odd. Perhaps she was searching for Ellone because she was possessed by Ultimecia, and she had Ellone put in a research facility to try and awaken Ellones dorman powers(she was very young, so she might not have learnt of her powers yet).

This is naturally pure speculation, so it doesn't show anything conlusively, but it's interesting to think about anyway.

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I think this was most likely the case. I'll have to edit my own theory on this (the one in your document at GameFAQs) now.

Anyway, we don't really have anything much to go on for this theory. Saying that Edea looks younger than Cid -- as was said earlier in this Thread -- isn't necessarily true. Comparing Edea to Quistis, Selphie, or Rinoa, she's obviously got a good 15 years on them in age, and 10 at the least. Cid doesn't look all that old himself. I would assume he and Edea to be in their thirties, which both of them appear to be.


I really hope the Ultimania has some kind of conclusive information.

Oh,so you are saying that:
1-Adel was interested in Ellone for being her successor.
2-Odine researched her powers and discovered her ability.
3-Odine created Junction Machine Ellone.
4-It reached Ulti and she used it to take over the world.
5-She then possessed Edea first.

So Adel is not possessed isn´t it?

Well for those who believe in time loops it would not be difficult to see that Adel could have been possessed by Ulti.I always thought it was implied in the game.

Oh ya, some of your riddles again and the pot calling the kettle black. Very well, kindly pls explain.

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Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf

the R-U theory is unproven and false.SHUT UP DAMMIT ABOUT SMEGGIN R-U THEORY. IT IS UNTRUE.i agree with rubah.

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No one in this thread said anything about believing R=U. You get worked up rather easily don't you?

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Well for those who believe in time loops it would not be difficult to see that Adel could have been possessed by Ulti.I always thought it was implied in the game.

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Edea tells you tha Ulti can only possess sorceresses of the present in order to compress time. And the only sorceresses available to her, as explained by Edea, were herself, Rinoa and Adel. Ulti chooses Adel (after Edea turned out to be failure, I guess) but needed Adel released from her space prison. Therefore, she possessed Rinoa temporarily so that Adel could be released. Ulti knew the Lunar Cry would occur and timed it perfectly so that Adel would come flying down to earth. Seifer, who must've found out at some point while he was serving Edea that he was really serving Ultimecia, catches Adel with the Lunatic Pandora. Ulti combined with Adel and started Time Compression then.

Yes, I too see the shortcomings in believing that Sorceresses age differently. Basically, the main reason people seem to believe this is because Edea looks much younger than cid. Let me point a few things out:

1. In many Japanese games/anime, the female characters appear youthful and pretty, despite their age (Bulma in Dragon ball Z is proof enough of this). Male characters are not usually given this luxury, thus it possible for 2 people approximately the same age to look years apart.
2. As can be seen from the similarities in the character designs of the female FF8 characters in the FMV’s, the same basic body seems to have been used for all of them, with minor alterations. They probably couldn’t be bothered changing her appearance enough to make her look any older than the other characters.
3. In Japan, it is seen as more acceptable for an older man to marry a younger woman, so it’s entirely possible that the age difference was always there, and not caused by slow aging.
4. Cid looks like Robin Williams. Not sure what that proves, just thought I would through it in there…

As you can see, there are major flaws in believing that Edea has aged differently to anyone else, thus there is no basis to the idea that Sorceresses live forever.

One last thing though…

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Laguna: … Ultimecia lives far in the future where none of us
can technically exist.

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Direct quote from the game. Don’t you think it’s a little odd do believe in a theory that is DIRECTLY refuted by the game itself? Just a thought…

Now Im not trying to argue with any of you FF VIII vets, Ive just finished the game today for the first time (hooray for me :p ) so Im kinda trying to put the whole thing together.

I understood things to work this way:

1. Odines machine based on Elone becomes very powerful in the future enabling Ultimecia to travel back in time, so she comes up with the whole time compression theory and figures "what the heck Ill give it a shot"

2.Ultimecia isnt able to go back far enough to compress time from the begining but she gets fortunate enough to get dropped off in Elones time (or she purposely does so after finding her abilities in time travel are still limited). Hence she starts a search for this girl the machines based on in order to use her to go further back.

3.Ultimecia posseses Adel (whos not such a nice person to begin with) to accomplish this but after Laguna and friends put Adel out of commision, Ultimecia jumps to Edea, but SeeD having defeated Edea many times causes her to go with Rinoa.Smart choice because of the relationship she has with Squall and the rest of the gang perhaps thinking that relationship will serve to protect Rinoa as she uses her.


Is any of this right? :confused:

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Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

2. As can be seen from the similarities in the character designs of the female FF8 characters in the FMV’s, the same basic body seems to have been used for all of them, with minor alterations. They probably couldn’t be bothered changing her appearance enough to make her look any older than the other characters.

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Really, though, she did look older than the other girls. I would say a good 10 to 15 years older.

Compare:

Edea.
Edea again.
Edea 3.
Selphie.
Quistis.
Rinoa.

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Originally Posted by beaglegod

Now Im not trying to argue with any of you FF VIII vets, Ive just finished the game today for the first time (hooray for me :p ) so Im kinda trying to put the whole thing together.

I understood things to work this way:

1. Odines machine based on Elone becomes very powerful in the future enabling Ultimecia to travel back in time, so she comes up with the whole time compression theory and figures "what the heck Ill give it a shot"

2.Ultimecia isnt able to go back far enough to compress time from the begining but she gets fortunate enough to get dropped off in Elones time (or she purposely does so after finding her abilities in time travel are still limited). Hence she starts a search for this girl the machines based on in order to use her to go further back.

3.Ultimecia posseses Adel (whos not such a nice person to begin with) to accomplish this but after Laguna and friends put Adel out of commision, Ultimecia jumps to Edea, but SeeD having defeated Edea many times causes her to go with Rinoa.Smart choice because of the relationship she has with Squall and the rest of the gang perhaps thinking that relationship will serve to protect Rinoa as she uses her.


Is any of this right? :confused:

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Pretty much, yes.

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Originally Posted by beaglegod

3.Ultimecia posseses Adel (whos not such a nice person to begin with) to accomplish this but after Laguna and friends put Adel out of commision, Ultimecia jumps to Edea, but SeeD having defeated Edea many times causes her to go with Rinoa.Smart choice because of the relationship she has with Squall and the rest of the gang perhaps thinking that relationship will serve to protect Rinoa as she uses her.

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Like I said, Adel is looking for little girls to be her successor in the past and not a specific girl but later her soldiers just captured Ellone and send her to Esthar.

Odine studied her and find her special and Adel changed her plan.

Correct me if I am wrong on the part above.

But if it is what you say in your post, then why is there a 10 years gap in between? Why do she take action only 10 years after not immediately when Adel is out of commission as you say in your post, she jumped to Rinoa after Edea is defeated.

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Originally Posted by Unknowns

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Originally Posted by beaglegod

3.Ultimecia posseses Adel (whos not such a nice person to begin with) to accomplish this but after Laguna and friends put Adel out of commision, Ultimecia jumps to Edea, but SeeD having defeated Edea many times causes her to go with Rinoa.Smart choice because of the relationship she has with Squall and the rest of the gang perhaps thinking that relationship will serve to protect Rinoa as she uses her.

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Like I said, Adel is looking for little girls to be her successor in the past and not a specific girl but later her soldiers just captured Ellone and send her to Esthar.

Odine studied her and find her special and Adel changed her plan.

Correct me if I am wrong on the part above.

But if it is what you say in your post, then why is there a 10 years gap in between? Why do she take action only 10 years after not immediately when Adel is out of commission as you say in your post, she jumped to Rinoa after Edea is defeated.

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It's a bit too convenient that both Ultimecia and Adel were obsessed with Ellone. The whole "seeking a successor" thing was likely a cover up for what she really wanted: Ellone specifically. Recall that the Esthari soldiers kill Ellone's parents for not giving her up, and they later come back for her. If Adel was just seeking a random girl, it would make sense that she would have had a bunch of girls brought to her from whom she could select the one she wanted as her successor. Yet she seemed to specifically want Ellone, and seemed very annoyed that the girl had been taken from her by the Adel Resistance.

As for why it took her five years to take Edea, that's a good question.

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Odine studied her and find her special and Adel changed her plan.

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Ah ok, so basicaly Adel was engaged in a common practice of searching for a succesor, and thats how Elones powers were discovered initialy.Adel became interested in Elones powers of time travel.

Later on Ultemecia put her conciousness into Adel in order to carry out her own plans, after wich Adel was imprisoned. Is that kinda sorta what your saying?

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

It's a bit too convenient that both Ultimecia and Adel were obsessed with Ellone. The whole "seeking a successor" thing was likely a cover up for what she really wanted: Ellone specifically. Recall that the Esthari soldiers kill Ellone's parents for not giving her up, and they later come back for her. If Adel was just seeking a random girl, it would make sense that she would have had a bunch of girls brought to her from whom she could select the one she wanted as her successor.

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You know, considering Ellone is the only little girl left in the town....
So maybe the other little girls are killed or captured then rejected and disposed of.

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

Yet she seemed to specifically want Ellone, and seemed very annoyed that the girl had been taken from her by the Adel Resistance.

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That is after Odine researched her and Adel came to know her power, right?

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

As for why it took her five years to take Edea, that's a good question.

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Maybe I will answer this myself. Ultimecia has the junction machine Ellone so she can send her consious to the past so she just went back to 10 years later after Adel's event and possess Edea. But this dun make sense too since why will she do such a meaningless thing?

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Originally Posted by beaglegod

Ah ok, so basicaly Adel was engaged in a common practice of searching for a succesor, and thats how Elones powers were discovered initialy.Adel became interested in Elones powers of time travel.

Later on Ultemecia put her conciousness into Adel in order to carry out her own plans, after wich Adel was imprisoned. Is that kinda sorta what your saying?

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Not really. Ultimecia didn't possess Adel at all in the past.Adel just do all the stuff on her own will since she is just evil by nature. But this is just my views and I can't say yours is wrong either.

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You know, considering Ellone is the only little girl left in the town....
So maybe the other little girls are killed or captured then rejected and disposed of.

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Well, even if we assume Ellone was the only girl left, there are other towns in the world of FF8 with many more little girls. Why do we see none of them? Although there's bound to be other potential sorceresses elsewhere in the world, Adel specifically goes for Ellone alone.

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That is after Odine researched her and Adel came to know her power, right?

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Depends. If you assume Ultimecia was possessing Adel, then she knew of her power before Odine did his research. If not, then your explanation can fit.

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Maybe I will answer this myself. Ultimecia has the junction machine Ellone so she can send her consious to the past so she just went back to 10 years later after Adel's event and possess Edea. But this dun make sense too since why will she do such a meaningless thing?

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This is only a problem depending on what view you have on time in FF8.
If you believe you can change the past, then this makes no sense. After all, Ultimecia could have gone back and possessed Adel again before she was sealed up, except this time she'd know that they would be trying to fool her, so she could easily change things so she didn't get sealed up, enabling her to keep on doing research on Ellone. One possible solution to this could be that she didn't want to wait around for Ellones powers to awaken within her, soe she figured she'd look for her when she was more grown up.

If you however believe you can't change the past, then there would be no gap inbetween these two events. Immediately after Adel was sealed up, Ultimecia'd jump to Edea, and that'd be that.

But also in that scenario you might ask why she doesn't go back and try and change things(assuming that Ultimecia doesn't realise that you can't change the past). One possible answer is that possessing Adel again would result in Adel having not one, but TWO Ultimecias inside her! Perhaps this would be too much of a strain.

I'm not sure though...

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It's a bit too convenient that both Ultimecia and Adel were obsessed with Ellone. The whole "seeking a successor" thing was likely a cover up for what she really wanted: Ellone specifically. Recall that the Esthari soldiers kill Ellone's parents for not giving her up, and they later come back for her. If Adel was just seeking a random girl, it would make sense that she would have had a bunch of girls brought to her from whom she could select the one she wanted as her successor. Yet she seemed to specifically want Ellone, and seemed very annoyed that the girl had been taken from her by the Adel Resistance.

As for why it took her five years to take Edea, that's a good question.

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Agreed with you for the first time Squall of Seed.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Well, even if we assume Ellone was the only girl left, there are other towns in the world of FF8 with many more little girls. Why do we see none of them? Although there's bound to be other potential sorceresses elsewhere in the world, Adel specifically goes for Ellone alone.

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But i would say Adel specifically goes for Winhill.
Let's just say why is Winhill picked in the first place? Why not just pick someone from Esthar to save the trouble. And why is Galbadian soldiers deloyed to the town just for the sake of one little girl?

I reckon the Adel might have a sense of feeling that the right one is in Winhill and specifically kidnapped the little girls there till Ellone is left.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

But also in that scenario you might ask why she doesn't go back and try and change things(assuming that Ultimecia doesn't realise that you can't change the past), is that possessing Adel again would result in Adel having not one, but TWO Ultimecias inside her! Perhaps this would be too much

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Or maybe she just possessed some unknown sorceress that is hiding somewhere in the world and they messed up her plan until 10 years later she finally found Edea? (.......This isn't making sense.....and I begining to sound like Future... :p )

As what I read in the tutorial, there might be some sorceress hidden unknown to the public.

But after the weighing all the right and wrong, from what I see, especially from the 10 years gap question, Adel is independant?

Once again, correct me if I am wrong.

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I reckon the Adel might have a sense of feeling that the right one is in Winhill and specifically kidnapped the little girls there till Ellone is left.

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Perhaps, but it's a little bit too odd for my taste that the girl she happens to single put in her search is Ellone, the very person Ultimecia is searching for.

Anyway, the gap between them is, as I said, only a problem in a time which can be altered. Personally, I believe all of time in FF8 is set in stone, which means it's not actually that big a problem.

As for a conclusion, I'm not sure if there is one good conclusion to this...

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Perhaps, but it's a little bit too odd for my taste that the girl she happens to single put in her search is Ellone, the very person Ultimecia is searching for.

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Since she is the only one left in town, she has to be the one, isn't it?
But I still interpret as she specifically went for Winhill instead of Ellone. That is me that is.

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As for a conclusion, I'm not sure if there is one good conclusion to this...

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I do agree...

I was thinking about this after reading all the R=U theories and i came up with this one:

As we all no squall and friends go on a jouney to defeat ultemicia, etc and then later kill her. Then rinoa goes insane after she cant find squall in their promised place so she uses her powers and TC and goes to the far future (or she lived a long life) and then tries to find her long lost love but during the time gap she forgets about him and only wants to control all time thus TC.

While Ulti travels thru time she ends up in the time period at which she actually became wat she is today (ff8 story) and it repeats itself again with squall killing her, rinoa goin insane, time goin in a circle.

PHEW! ok done

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Originally Posted by GunbladeMaster

I was thinking about this after reading all the R=U theories and i came up with this one:

As we all no squall and friends go on a jouney to defeat ultemicia, etc and then later kill her. Then rinoa goes insane after she cant find squall in their promised place so she uses her powers and TC and goes to the far future (or she lived a long life) and then tries to find her long lost love but during the time gap she forgets about him and only wants to control all time thus TC.

While Ulti travels thru time she ends up in the time period at which she actually became wat she is today (ff8 story) and it repeats itself again with squall killing her, rinoa goin insane, time goin in a circle.

PHEW! ok done

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SSSSHHHHHH!! You're going to wake Future Esthar!!
This has all been brought up before, and debated to a great extent.
The consensus, and side with the strongest arguments, is that there just isn't enough proof within the game to support this.

It is an interesting theory, however highly unlikely. If this were true, don't you think it would have made for an amazing plot twist? One certainly that would have been worthy of mention in the game's dialogue.

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Originally Posted by crazybayman

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Originally Posted by GunbladeMaster

I was thinking about this after reading all the R=U theories and i came up with this one:

As we all no squall and friends go on a jouney to defeat ultemicia, etc and then later kill her. Then rinoa goes insane after she cant find squall in their promised place so she uses her powers and TC and goes to the far future (or she lived a long life) and then tries to find her long lost love but during the time gap she forgets about him and only wants to control all time thus TC.

While Ulti travels thru time she ends up in the time period at which she actually became wat she is today (ff8 story) and it repeats itself again with squall killing her, rinoa goin insane, time goin in a circle.

PHEW! ok done

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SSSSHHHHHH!! You're going to wake Future Esthar!!
This has all been brought up before, and debated to a great extent.
The consensus, and side with the strongest arguments, is that there just isn't enough proof within the game to support this.

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Well... I would say the consensus is that we agree to disagree, and that there is no hard proof for the R=U theory, except what we supporters consider foreshadowing and hints.

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It is an interesting theory, however highly unlikely. If this were true, don't you think it would have made for an amazing plot twist? One certainly that would have been worthy of mention in the game's dialogue.

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I certainly DO think it's an awesome plot twist (which is part of the reason I believe it) but Squaresoft might very well have decided to be (too?) subtle about it. After all, they do like to be... circumspect about things. Heck, even the generally accepted 'Laguna is Squall's father is never actually SAID. Heck, maybe they PURPOSEFULLY were vague about it. Leaving the players in doubt. Similiar to the FF VII 'did humanity get wiped out or not?' question. (which is answered now it seems with the movie)

Rand: You should know that the technical aspect of the theory, ie. can Rinoa live long enough to become Ultimecia question, will be put to rest soon. SquallOfSeeD here will soon be getting an Ultimania which will probably(hopefully!) settle the matter once and for all.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

but Squaresoft might very well have decided to be (too?) subtle about it. After all, they do like to be... circumspect about things. Heck, even the generally accepted 'Laguna is Squall's father is never actually SAID. Heck, maybe they PURPOSEFULLY were vague about it. Leaving the players in doubt. Similiar to the FF VII 'did humanity get wiped out or not?' question. (which is answered now it seems with the movie)

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There were many blatant hints dropped throughout the game, indicating that Laguna is Squall's father.

For example, Squall and Raine bear the same last name, and Laguna was with Raine for a time, while she was looking after Ellone. Laguna left, after which Raine realized she was pregnant, had the baby, but died before Ellone could find Laguna to tell him. After Raine died, Ellone and Squall were sent to the orphanage. Doesn't that tell you that Squall is from Winhill, and that he is most likely Raine's, and therefore Laguna's child.

As well, there's the scene on the Ragnarok with Kiros and Ward saying "good thing you don't look like your father", "You look more like your mother", things reserved only for someone they know very well, i.e. Laguna.....

There are, however, not one even remote hint that R=U. If it were the case, you can bet that it would have been hinted at in the dialogue and/or storyline, somewhere.

Like, if you went for the insanity theory, they would've hinted that rinoa's family has had a history of mental illness, or Rinoa would've said something like 'Squall, if I ever lose you I'd go crazy' Or ultimecia would've reacted to her presence in some way instead of ignoring her.

Rinoa actually does say on The Ragnarok that she's been feeling schizophrenic lately. Although, it's been a while since I checked, but if that's not it, the implications are the same; the sorceress thing has been driving her a bit 'mad'.

Other hints may be seen, but they all generally have more plausible alternate explanations that do not imply R=U.

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Originally Posted by rubah

Like, if you went for the insanity theory, they would've hinted that rinoa's family has had a history of mental illness, or Rinoa would've said something like 'Squall, if I ever lose you I'd go crazy' Or ultimecia would've reacted to her presence in some way instead of ignoring her.

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There is clear mentionings that Sorceresses without knights tend to go evil.

Rinoa explicitely requests that Squall put her down if she go evil.

Squall mentions he'll protect her 'even if she becomes the enemy of the world'

Rinoa expresses the wish that 'time would stop and the moment would last forever'which might just be a general expression, and isn't really exactly what Ulti wants, but seems too much of a coincidence considering ; screwing around with time' is the villain's main idea.

The ending movie, but really, that one's pretty cryptic.

No, obviously the hints aren't as obvious and well... beyong doubt as Squall's parentage. For one, I never thought of R=U until I heard it here, and a replay made me go 'Ooooh, foreshadowing' Heck, it might very well be my own liking for bittersweet endings that influenced me. But when I play the game, I get the feeling that it's giving hints. And hints is proof enough for what I need.

And I'm half curious, half afraid of the 'final decision' If it appears that all the naysayers were right, I'll be dissappointed. I think R=U would be a GOOD twist, and make Ulti more than 'a Mindcontrolling Sorceress from the future'which is pretty damn little. As such, if it is disproven I will accept that it's not canon.

And then I will ignore canon, because I think R=U just makes for a better story. ;)

Makes me wonder BTW. The naysayers. Do you think it would be a GOOD plottwist?

Firstly, you should know that there is a very plausible theory on Ultimecia which I find to be just as good as the R=U twist. It basically says that Ultimecia is born a perfectly good sorceress, not born evil. However, since the events of the game will undoubtedly increase peoples fear and hatred of sorceresses, and they will all be waiting for Ultimecia to rise to power(since the events of the game would certainly be written down in history). So it is quite possible and plausible that the people persecuted Ultimecia from birth, essentially driving her to revenge on everyone. Also, she'd know from history that Squall was supposed to kill her(Edea: "So you are the legendary SeeD destined to face me") but would still go back to compress time so as to defy fate. That's a brief summary mind you;if you want the full thing, just ask.

Secondly, I do think R=U would have been quite a good twist, but I cannot see it as feasible based on what the game tells us.

Could ALSO be true (don't think the two are mutually exclusive) as Edea/Ulti speach after killing Deling seems to indicate she's been persecuted. But is the 'sorceresses age'thing the only thing that makes it impossible? (as opposed to 'possible but no reason to believe it?')

About Ultimicia controling Adel:

1. She would have known about the trap.

2. After the trap, if she would have just checked in on Edea about 5 years after the incident, she would have had Ellone almost literaly right under her nose. (As in - trying to controll the other sorceress may have been a good idea)

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Could ALSO be true (don't think the two are mutually exclusive) as Edea/Ulti speach after killing Deling seems to indicate she's been persecuted.

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Certainly, Rinoa might have been driven mad because of this persecution. In fact, that's basically what the theory says(or what it should say, I might add).

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But is the 'sorceresses age'thing the only thing that makes it impossible? (as opposed to 'possible but no reason to believe it?')

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Yes. All other things like Rinoa and Ultimecia in time compression together, Ultimecia looking different than Rinoa, and stuff like that all have their reasonable counters. However, when we get down to it, Ultimecia lives hundreds of years into the future, so for the theory to be possible, Rinoa must have an extended or infinite lifespan(while she is a sorceress). There has been much dispute about this, but hopefully the Ultimania will make the answer obvious.

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1. She would have known about the trap.

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Not necessarily. Although it may have been written down in history that Laguna trapped her, I personally doubt that Ultimecia would know, or remember, such a small fact.

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2. After the trap, if she would have just checked in on Edea about 5 years after the incident, she would have had Ellone almost literaly right under her nose. (As in - trying to controll the other sorceress may have been a good idea)

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But is not that what she basically did? Edea realised what was happening, and had Ellone sent off with the White SeeDs, telling them to stay away from her, and then she let herself be possessed.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Makes me wonder BTW. The naysayers. Do you think it would be a GOOD plottwist?

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Yes, but it will mean that FF VIII will turn out to be a pretty sad story and ppl might not be able to accept the fact that the happy ending they see in the ending FMV is just short lived.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Not necessarily. Although it may have been written down in history that Laguna trapped her, I personally doubt that Ultimecia would know, or remember, such a small fact.

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I dun think it is a small fact because for what Laguna did to Adel delayed her plan for ten years if Adel is truly possessed by Ultimecia. And if she did possessed Adel, she will have succeed with her plans without having Squall to stop her ten years ago before the time of Edea which mean she truly defied fate as you mentioned before. Also as mentioned:

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(Edea: "So you are the legendary SeeD destined to face me")

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It show that she know/remember stuffs that is hindrance to her plans. And I do think how much of hindrance do Laguna's trap cause to her plans.

Also, if Adel is trapped in the Sorceress' memorial, and Ultimecia's consicous is inside her, will she most likely get trapped along as well? Since the machine is strong enough even to affect radio waves.

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I dun think it is a small fact because for what Laguna did to Adel delayed her plan for ten years if Adel is truly possessed by Ultimecia.

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Well, if Ultimecia only knew a little bit about her past, for instance only that she would go to the past and that she was apparently defeated by a 'lengendary SeeD' then this point can be explained. But I agree that if Ultimecia had read a lot of world history, she should know about this.

[quote]And if she did possessed Adel, she will have succeed with her plans without having Squall to stop her ten years ago before the time of Edea which mean she truly defied fate as you mentioned before. [/quite]

She won't succeed in her plans because Laguna traps Adel! THis would naturally be part of her fate too, so even if she possessed Adel, she'd still be fulfilling her destiny.

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It show that she know/remember stuffs that is hindrance to her plans. And I do think how much of hindrance do Laguna's trap cause to her plans.

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True, but it's impossible to tell exactly how much she knew(see point above).

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Also, if Adel is trapped in the Sorceress' memorial, and Ultimecia's consicous is inside her, will she most likely get trapped along as well? Since the machine is strong enough even to affect radio waves.

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That's an interesting idea indeed, but it is Adels seal in space which interferes with radio waves, not the Memorial. However, the Memorial would probably set a seal against all ingoing and outgoing signals, which I suppose might actually include Ultimecias conscience. But then again, at that point, there was very little known about Ellones magical powers, so I doubt that Memorial had been equipped to block off even such things as Ellones magic.

Interesting point anyway.

Well, it depends on how 'possession'really works. Could also be that the seals and such just cut off the connection between Adel and Ulti and broke the possession.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Well, it depends on how 'possession'really works. Could also be that the seals and such just cut off the connection between Adel and Ulti and broke the possession.

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I'd say that's a little more like it. Ultimecia was also able to possess Edea and Rinoa, all while Adel was sealed up. I'd say that means either she was able to get her conscience back to her time, or the link was severed once she was sealed, or at least placed in space.

Or, of course, that Ultimecia never possessed Adel to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

That's an interesting idea indeed, but it is Adels seal in space which interferes with radio waves, not the Memorial. However, the Memorial would probably set a seal against all ingoing and outgoing signals, which I suppose might actually include Ultimecias conscience. But then again, at that point, there was very little known about Ellones magical powers, so I doubt that Memorial had been equipped to block off even such things as Ellones magic.

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Actually I mean the seal when I used "machine". But maybe it is a little confusing since to me that is, I see the seal might probably be the machine inside the memorial which they detach it and send it to outer space.

I thought that it will be rather dangerous to transfer Adel from the memorial to other magic sealing machine then into space. Or maybe I missed some part? Correct me if I do.

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Originally Posted by crazybayman

I'd say that means either she was able to get her conscience back to her time, or the link was severed once she was sealed, or at least placed in space.

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Or Adel is never possessed or else Ultimecia's consicous will be trapped along?

Also, I reckon that there really be a good conclusion to this topic like we discussed before........

One example is the highlighted portion which I can said since there is little known, I doubt that Ellone magic won't get block. Since the consicious sending/possessing thing work something like sending signals into other body while the seal block it or seal the signal along with it?

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Originally Posted by Unknowns

Or Adel is never possessed or else Ultimecia's consicous will be trapped along?

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Ultimecia's conscience could not have been trapped, because while Adel was sealed away, Ultimecia was able to possess Edea, and then Rinoa. She even possessed Rinoa in order to break Adel's seal.

Right.....maybe Adel wasn't even possessed to begin with....until Ultimecia tried to possess her when she was set free from the seal, when you fight her inside Lunatic Pandora.

Thought on the original subject. Assuming for a moment that Adel WAS Adel, and that she DID look for a successor, it doesn't mean she expects to die in the next century. After all, if we look at Ultimecia, getting killed and not having someone to pass on power to seems to be a rather uncomfortable affair (if it wasn't painful, than why did she pass them up after all) so Adel might want to always keep a 'suitable succesor'ready in case a bunch of heroes want to kill her. And she'd probably also want to take them young, so she can influence them into continuing her reign after she dies, hang the ones that did HER in by their guts and such. Of course, if Sorceresses can become extremely old, she might end up surviving many nsuccessors but hey... they can be handy either way.

So just because Adel searches for a succesor, if she indeed DOES that, doesn't mean old age can take out sorceresses.

Hmm... a thought occured to me. Perhaps Sorceresses don't grow OLDER, but 'less human' as the inherent power transforms them? After all, Adel seems only vaguely human (and pretty male) But THAT is widldly speculating.

Just something to keep in mind. The Sorceress Power isn't just 'whee, I can use magic' it's a fraction of power from a defeated god. So to cross reference to FFX-2.... Everything goes for the Sorceresses! (or was that anything goes?)

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

So just because Adel searches for a succesor, if she indeed DOES that, doesn't mean old age can take out sorceresses.

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Then how do you think most of the sorceresses in the past way before Adel's time died? Do you really think someone hunt them down and slew all of them?

Or maybe they lived in seclusion after they passed their powers to others? But it is said that for a sorceress to die peacefully, she must pass her power to someone. It did somehow imply that sorceress pass their powers when near death. Edea's case is an accident.

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So just because Adel searches for a succesor, if she indeed DOES that, doesn't mean old age can take out sorceresses.

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Very true. This has been realised for quite some time, and is the most commonly used argument against the successor point. Naturally, this all rests on the question of "what's the deal with sorceresses dying?", which is what we will hopefully get settled through the Ultimania.

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Hmm... a thought occured to me. Perhaps Sorceresses don't grow OLDER, but 'less human' as the inherent power transforms them? After all, Adel seems only vaguely human (and pretty male) But THAT is widldly speculating.

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I believe it is more likely(and I'm pretty sure the Ultimania backs this up) that it is extensive use of black magic(ie. using sorceress powers to do evil) which physicall deforms the sorceress, not old age.

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Just something to keep in mind. The Sorceress Power isn't just 'whee, I can use magic' it's a fraction of power from a defeated god.

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The fact that the god in question, Hyne, also was either immortal or had very long lifespan(he takes naps which lasts for hundreds of years) is really one of the better arguments behind sorceress ling lifespan.

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Then how do you think most of the sorceresses in the past way before Adel's time died? Do you really think someone hunt them down and slew all of them?

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Who's to say there aren't still plenty of sorceresses hiding around the world. The tutorial tells us that most sorceresses hide away, so it's impossible to tell how many really exist.

Of course, if they merely have extended lifespan, they'd still die of old age sooner or later anyway. Others may have been killed. Others died in accidents. Who knows? And remember that since sorceresses avoid spreading their powers too thin, the amount of sorceress in the world grows smaller with time. In other words, if a sorceress has a choice, she will give her powers to an already existing sorceress. So with time, the amount of sorceresses are reduced, even if one only dies every now and then.

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But it is said that for a sorceress to die peacefully, she must pass her power to someone. It did somehow imply that sorceress pass their powers when near death. Edea's case is an accident.

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This is a point of discussion; does the body force the sorceress to 'cough up' the powers before dying(ie. the body cannot let go of life while containing the powers) or is it merely that the sorceress does not wish to die while still a sorceress. The most recent information from Ultimania(still unconfirmed, this is another mystery we hope to solve soon) suggests that a sorceress wishes to pass on her powers because it's like passing on her genes, or legacy. So just like animals strive to pass on their genes, a sorceress does not wish to die without passing on her powers.

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But it is said that for a sorceress to die peacefully, she must pass her power to someone. It did somehow imply that sorceress pass their powers when near death. Edea's case is an accident.

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This is a point of discussion; does the body force the sorceress to 'cough up' the powers before dying(ie. the body cannot let go of life while containing the powers) or is it merely that the sorceress does not wish to die while still a sorceress. The most recent information from Ultimania(still unconfirmed, this is another mystery we hope to solve soon) suggests that a sorceress wishes to pass on her powers because it's like passing on her genes, or legacy. So just like animals strive to pass on their genes, a sorceress does not wish to die without passing on her powers.

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Hmm, Ultimania would of course trump what I think, but if 'passing the powers' is just something a Sorceress WANTS to do, rather than NEEDS to do, why did Edea take Ulti's powers? Edea never seemed very fond of them, and if possible wouldn't she just have preferred the power to vanish? Ulti didn't exactly look in any fighting shape, so Squall COULD have just finished her off before any kinds happened to pass by. But she stops him when he draws his sword and actually says Ultimecia NEEDS to pass the powers IIRC. Unless she actually couldn't really die without passing the powers, and Edea volunteered. The 'passing a legacy' option explains why Ulti clings on a bit longer, but doesn't explain why Edea humors her.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Who's to say there aren't still plenty of sorceresses hiding around the world. The tutorial tells us that most sorceresses hide away, so it's impossible to tell how many really exist.

Of course, if they merely have extended lifespan, they'd still die of old age sooner or later anyway. Others may have been killed. Others died in accidents. Who knows? And remember that since sorceresses avoid spreading their powers too thin, the amount of sorceress in the world grows smaller with time. In other words, if a sorceress has a choice, she will give her powers to an already existing sorceress. So with time, the amount of sorceresses are reduced, even if one only dies every now and then.

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My point stated is how do most of the sorceress in the past died. I didn't really mention about sorceress is near extinction or anything....

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

This is a point of discussion; does the body force the sorceress to 'cough up' the powers before dying(ie. the body cannot let go of life while containing the powers) or is it merely that the sorceress does not wish to die while still a sorceress. The most recent information from Ultimania(still unconfirmed, this is another mystery we hope to solve soon) suggests that a sorceress wishes to pass on her powers because it's like passing on her genes, or legacy. So just like animals strive to pass on their genes, a sorceress does not wish to die without passing on her powers.

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From my views that is, having a sorceress power is a curse.Those that see it as a curse hold onto their power so as no one will suffer from the curse. (Pretty much like what Edea said "I dun want my children to become one). Some other live with the curse and want other to face the wrath of the curse(abusing the magic) and suffer with the curse.When they are near death, those that is like Edea, passed on the curse to other so as to be finally free from the curse. While the other, wanted the curse to strive on, passed her powers to others hoping the successor will continue with her menace and also to be free from the curse as well.

Both have reasons only to pass their powers when they are near death. Maybe I should rephrase my previous point as "usually" pass their power when they are near death.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

The fact that the god in question, Hyne, also was either immortal or had very long lifespan(he takes naps which lasts for hundreds of years) is really one of the better arguments behind sorceress ling lifespan.

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But it is a fact that Hyne might have an immortal body or a very long lifespan while the sorceress only had a normal mortal body and a normal lifespan before becoming one. Whether the power they received make their body immortal or give a longer lifespan is stil unknown.

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Originally Posted by Unknowns

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Who's to say there aren't still plenty of sorceresses hiding around the world. The tutorial tells us that most sorceresses hide away, so it's impossible to tell how many really exist.

Of course, if they merely have extended lifespan, they'd still die of old age sooner or later anyway. Others may have been killed. Others died in accidents. Who knows? And remember that since sorceresses avoid spreading their powers too thin, the amount of sorceress in the world grows smaller with time. In other words, if a sorceress has a choice, she will give her powers to an already existing sorceress. So with time, the amount of sorceresses are reduced, even if one only dies every now and then.

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My point stated is how do most of the sorceress in the past died. I ddin't really mention about sorceress is near extinction or anything....

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Plenty of ways to die. Some embraced the evilness and became evil overlo...ladies, and went the way of all of those. A bunch of unlikely heroes with lots of megalixers and all the highest weapons that complain about how She sucks compared to that optional bosss ;) Others might end up being used in wars over the past and died there. Some of them just end up getting run over by a car or carriage. Plenty of ways to die beside 'growing old'

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

This is a point of discussion; does the body force the sorceress to 'cough up' the powers before dying(ie. the body cannot let go of life while containing the powers) or is it merely that the sorceress does not wish to die while still a sorceress. The most recent information from Ultimania(still unconfirmed, this is another mystery we hope to solve soon) suggests that a sorceress wishes to pass on her powers because it's like passing on her genes, or legacy. So just like animals strive to pass on their genes, a sorceress does not wish to die without passing on her powers.

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From my views that is, having a sorceress power is a curse.Those that see it as a curse hold onto their power so as no one will suffer from the curse. (Pretty much like what Edea said "I dun want my children to become one). Some other live with the curse and want other to face the wrath of the curse(abusing the magic) and suffer with the curse.When they are near death, those that is like Edea, passed on the curse to other so as to be finally free from the curse. While the other, wanted the curse to strive on, passed her powers to others hoping the successor will continue with her menace and also to be free from the curse as well.

Both have reasons only to pass their powers when they are near death. Maybe I should rephrase my previous point as "usually" pass their power when they are near death.

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Definately agree on the 'curse'thing. But it doesn't explain why 'good'sorceresses pass on their powers. If they CAN die and take the curse with them in the grave, why not do it? In Edea's case, it was by accident she passed her powers. But if she HAD died, in control of herself, would she pass on the curse to someone else unless she had no choice? So I think that the Sorcersess Power/Curse isn't gotten rid of so easily as 'death'

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

The fact that the god in question, Hyne, also was either immortal or had very long lifespan(he takes naps which lasts for hundreds of years) is really one of the better arguments behind sorceress ling lifespan.

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But it is a fact that Hyne might have an immortal body or a very long lifespan while the sorceress only had a normal mortal body and a normal lifespan before becoming one. Whether the power they received make their body immortal or give a longer lifespan is stil unknown.

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True.... unknown. But I would say that 'all bets are off' and you can't just ASSUME that sorceresses keel over after normal human time without evidence that they DO, anymore than we can say they're immortal without evidence that they are. The Sorceresses' lifespan is a questionmark, and so I feel it doesn't make the R=U theory impossible.



Oh, other note. Been digging through the script, and Dr. Odine says

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In order for Ultimecia to exist in this time, she must take over
ze body of a sorceress from ze present. But ze machine must have a
limit. Ultimecia probably needs to go back further in time to achieve
time compression. Only Ellone can take her back further into ze past.
Zat iz why she iz desperately seeking her. We must take advantage of
Ellone's power. There are 2 sorceresses in our time. Sorceress Rinoa
and Sorceress Adel.

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Of course... that's two Sorceresses that Odine KNOWS off. So it doesn't really have to prove anything, but I'd bring it up as foood for thought. Also Seifer:

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Seifer: Rinoa and Adel! The sorceresses as one! Watch closely, Squall!

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He COULD mean 'the two sorceresses' or he could mean more importantly, and it SEEMS to be important 'all the sorceresses as one'

Still, if there ARE other sorceresses, they're most likely irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Plenty of ways to die. Some embraced the evilness and became evil overlo...ladies, and went the way of all of those. A bunch of unlikely heroes with lots of megalixers and all the highest weapons that complain about how She sucks compared to that optional bosss ;) Others might end up being used in wars over the past and died there. Some of them just end up getting run over by a car or carriage. Plenty of ways to die beside 'growing old'

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Yup, there is why I said most of the sorceress may have died in a natural way but some other died in an unnatural way. But if old age can't claim a sorceress, do you really think the rates of an accident happening to a sorceress is so frequently? So all sorceress died from an unnatural death?

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Definately agree on the 'curse'thing. But it doesn't explain why 'good'sorceresses pass on their powers. If they CAN die and take the curse with them in the grave, why not do it? In Edea's case, it was by accident she passed her powers. But if she HAD died, in control of herself, would she pass on the curse to someone else unless she had no choice? So I think that the Sorcersess Power/Curse isn't gotten rid of so easily as 'death'

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I will said it is already enough. Enough in a sense that they had lived with the curse for their whole life, and if they do have extended life span, means worse. And it is only a peaceful death that they wanted, why can't they have it? Taking the curse along with them to the other world mean them will be living with the curse for eternity. They had lived with the curse for a life time, why can't they have peace afterlife? This is like a normal humans having regrets before death and by fufilling the regrets let him die in peace. It is not selfish to give up the curse nor noble to take it with you.

But whether they NEED or WANT to pass their power is still unknown.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

True.... unknown. But I would say that 'all bets are off' and you can't just ASSUME that sorceresses keel over after normal human time without evidence that they DO, anymore than we can say they're immortal without evidence that they are. The Sorceresses' lifespan is a questionmark, and so I feel it doesn't make the R=U theory impossible.

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That is why I am curious on whether they have extended life span after receiving Hyne's power. Because I have no evidence whether they do or not do.

But most of the stuff we are discussing here doens't have evidence or anything, that's why I said earlier on there won't be a good conclusion.....

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

He COULD mean 'the two sorceresses' or he could mean more importantly, and it SEEMS to be important 'all the sorceresses as one'

Still, if there ARE other sorceresses, they're most likely irrelevant.

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They did merge as one didn't they? :p
Anyway, it could mean Adel to receive Rinoa's sorceress power like how Rinoa is going to receive Adel's power after Squall and CO bump her off.

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Originally Posted by Unknowns

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Plenty of ways to die. Some embraced the evilness and became evil overlo...ladies, and went the way of all of those. A bunch of unlikely heroes with lots of megalixers and all the highest weapons that complain about how She sucks compared to that optional bosss ;) Others might end up being used in wars over the past and died there. Some of them just end up getting run over by a car or carriage. Plenty of ways to die beside 'growing old'

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Yup, there is why I said most of the sorceress may have died in a natural way but some other died in an unnatural way. But if old age can't claim a sorceress, do you really think the rates of an accident happening to a sorceress is so frequently? So all sorceress died from an unnatural death?

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Yeah... either that or even Sorceresses drop dead after, say, 600 years? Not that big a stretch. And 'unnatural deaths' can be nice and broad. Sorceresses don't age, but they DO get sick for example. Or get a heart attack. (their heart doesn't age but... hey, a sorceress could be shocked.... or just have bad eating habits) Or they can be surprised by a boar if they decided to go live in a hut in the woods. Plenty of them might have gone above the human life expectancy but... well... every day you roll the dice thousands of times, and over a long enough time, you're gonna roll snake's eyes... even if it means getting hit by lightning.

Not to mention. Just imagine you have a great and awesome power would you just sit and be quiet and work a 9-5 job or sit in a hut in the forest? If you're evil, you're gonna try to rule people, if nyou're good you're going to try to help people, most likely using your power to stop evil people. Which means in either case you'll fight. And if you fight, you risk dying. Add that it's not unlikely that there's the occasional bout of Sorceress-Phobia and a Sorceress or two ends up getting lynched and... well... yeah, plenty of ways for Sorceresses to die without old age.

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Originally Posted by Rand AlTor

Definately agree on the 'curse'thing. But it doesn't explain why 'good'sorceresses pass on their powers. If they CAN die and take the curse with them in the grave, why not do it? In Edea's case, it was by accident she passed her powers. But if she HAD died, in control of herself, would she pass on the curse to someone else unless she had no choice? So I think that the Sorcersess Power/Curse isn't gotten rid of so easily as 'death'

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I will said it is already enough. Enough in a sense that they had lived with the curse for their whole life, and if they do have extended life span, means worse. And it is only a peaceful death that they wanted, why can't they have it? Taking the curse along with them to the other world mean them will be living with the curse for eternity. They had lived with the curse for a life time, why can't they have peace afterlife? This is like a normal humans having regrets before death and by fufilling the regrets let him die in peace. It is not selfish to give up the curse nor noble to take it with you.

But whether they NEED or WANT to pass their power is still unknown.

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Aaaah, good point. I didn't even think of Afterlife. (And since the gang DID run into a ghost, it's pretty likely there IS some kind of afterlife. In that case... yeah, even the most saintly of people would probably let someone else deal with the thing for a bit. I was thinking 'I die, I'm rid of it' thing. Still.... assuming you CAN die with sorceress power, some of them must have done so. I mean, either people would deliberately keep you away from girls/women, or you'd just end up dying somewhere alone. Of course, might be SOME of the Sorceress power has ended up 'lost' (or taken as a burden by some unlucky soul)

As you said, we don't really know. I like the idea of A sorceress just not dying but staying in absolute powerless and miserable condition till she can 'dump'. Maybe we'll get an answer soon.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

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True.... unknown. But I would say that 'all bets are off' and you can't just ASSUME that sorceresses keel over after normal human time without evidence that they DO, anymore than we can say they're immortal without evidence that they are. The Sorceresses' lifespan is a questionmark, and so I feel it doesn't make the R=U theory impossible.

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That is why I am curious on whether they have extended life span after receiving Hyne's power. Because I have no evidence whether they do or not do.

But most of the stuff we are discussing here doens't have evidence or anything, that's why I said earlier on there won't be a good conclusion.....

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Yeah... it could go either way. But as an R=U defender 'it could go either way' means it's not evidence AGAINST R=U. (it's not evidence IN FAVOR either)

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

He COULD mean 'the two sorceresses' or he could mean more importantly, and it SEEMS to be important 'all the sorceresses as one'

Still, if there ARE other sorceresses, they're most likely irrelevant.

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They did merge as one didn't they? :p
Anyway, it could mean Adel to receive Rinoa's sorceress power like how Rinoa is going to receive Adel's power after Squall and CO bump her off.

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Yeah, again, this could mean either. And maybe not entirely relevant. Just something I ran into and said 'hey, food for thought'

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Yeah... either that or even Sorceresses drop dead after, say, 600 years? Not that big a stretch. And 'unnatural deaths' can be nice and broad. Sorceresses don't age, but they DO get sick for example. Or get a heart attack. (their heart doesn't age but... hey, a sorceress could be shocked.... or just have bad eating habits) Or they can be surprised by a boar if they decided to go live in a hut in the woods. Plenty of them might have gone above the human life expectancy but... well... every day you roll the dice thousands of times, and over a long enough time, you're gonna roll snake's eyes... even if it means getting hit by lightning.

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Maybe now dying of illness an old age had been seen as a natural way of dying? Since most people died from illness during old age.

But let's look at this other way, if sorceress dun age, mean their body immune system is alway her prime?(since most of the sorceress we see in the game aren't old) or magic made her immune to illness?
So if her body is at her prime and her immune system shouldn't be so vulnerable to certain life threatening illness unlike people that have a certain age.

The chances of a youngster contacting diseases that can cause death like cancer..etc is pretty low compare to the elderly. But even if they do, it will usually be a small portion of them unless it is some infectious diseases like HIV or a plague or something. But all this have only small chances of happening.

And the chances of those accidents you mentioned happening is kinda small and when the victim apply to a sorceress make the chances even smaller.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Not to mention. Just imagine you have a great and awesome power would you just sit and be quiet and work a 9-5 job or sit in a hut in the forest? If you're evil, you're gonna try to rule people, if nyou're good you're going to try to help people, most likely using your power to stop evil people. Which means in either case you'll fight. And if you fight, you risk dying. Add that it's not unlikely that there's the occasional bout of Sorceress-Phobia and a Sorceress or two ends up getting lynched and... well... yeah, plenty of ways for Sorceresses to die without old age.

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Well, that is what Edea do. She did help others but without the use of her magic powers until the Ultimecia's incident that is.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Aaaah, good point. I didn't even think of Afterlife. (And since the gang DID run into a ghost, it's pretty likely there IS some kind of afterlife. In that case... yeah, even the most saintly of people would probably let someone else deal with the thing for a bit.

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Maybe you should see my pharse "taking in the other world" as an example. Since I pointed out about having regrets(those that really, really matters) before you die will result in a non peaceful death. So no matter where you go or what you become of you after death, the regrets will alway be a burden or something you cannot get rid of.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

I was thinking 'I die, I'm rid of it' thing. Still.... assuming you CAN die with sorceress power, some of them must have done so.

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Could be true. Since it apply only to die peacefully and not be able to die.

But maybe a person's final goal in life no matter who the person is or what the person do, the person will seek to have a peaceful death. You will usually want to wrap out unfinished business before you leave this world. But even if you are died from an accident or killed by others, you will still desperately use your last breath to finish something that had burdened you for life. Like Ultimecia' case, even she is done for, she still desperately wanted to finish her unfinished business.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

As you said, we don't really know. I like the idea of A sorceress just not dying but staying in absolute powerless and miserable condition till she can 'dump'. Maybe we'll get an answer soon.

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But there will be really a lot of sorceress hiding in this world from the age of Hyne to Squall's time since they might not be able to die in a natural way. But like the tutorial said, their numbers is unknown. So who knows.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Yeah... it could go either way. But as an R=U defender 'it could go either way' means it's not evidence AGAINST R=U. (it's not evidence IN FAVOR either)

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Well, I am actually more interested to know the truth and remain neutral until the truth is out. :)

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Originally Posted by Unknowns

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Yeah... either that or even Sorceresses drop dead after, say, 600 years? Not that big a stretch. And 'unnatural deaths' can be nice and broad. Sorceresses don't age, but they DO get sick for example. Or get a heart attack. (their heart doesn't age but... hey, a sorceress could be shocked.... or just have bad eating habits) Or they can be surprised by a boar if they decided to go live in a hut in the woods. Plenty of them might have gone above the human life expectancy but... well... every day you roll the dice thousands of times, and over a long enough time, you're gonna roll snake's eyes... even if it means getting hit by lightning.

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Maybe now dying of illness an old age had been seen as a natural way of dying? Since most people died from illness during old age.

But let's look at this other way, if sorceress dun age, mean their body immune system is alway her prime?(since most of the sorceress we see in the game aren't old) or magic made her immune to illness?
So if her body is at her prime and her immune system shouldn't be so vulnerable to certain life threatening illness unlike people that have a certain age.

The chances of a youngster contacting diseases that can cause death like cancer..etc is pretty low compare to the elderly. But even if they do, it will usually be a small portion of them unless it is some infectious diseases like HIV or a plague or something. But all this have only small chances of happening.

And the chances of those accidents you mentioned happening is kinda small and when the victim apply to a sorceress make the chances even smaller.

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True... but even people at their prime die of illnesses. And don't forget, if we assume that the world of FF VIII went through history just like earth, quite a BIG part of history had LOW life expectancy, no modern medicine, no sanitation, etc. etc. So even while 'pepretually young' with an excellent immune system, you still can catch your death from disease relatively easily.

There's bandits, rampaging soldiers, natural disasters. of course, a Sorceress COULD use her power to resist that, but then she has the problem that she'll be sought as a weapon.

And then of course, there's just Sorceresses that, after the fifth century, just plain old had ENOUGH of life.

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[QUOTE = Rand Al'Tor]Not to mention. Just imagine you have a great and awesome power would you just sit and be quiet and work a 9-5 job or sit in a hut in the forest? If you're evil, you're gonna try to rule people, if nyou're good you're going to try to help people, most likely using your power to stop evil people. Which means in either case you'll fight. And if you fight, you risk dying. Add that it's not unlikely that there's the occasional bout of Sorceress-Phobia and a Sorceress or two ends up getting lynched and... well... yeah, plenty of ways for Sorceresses to die without old age.

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Well, that is what Edea do. She did help others but without the use of her magic powers until the Ultimecia's incident that is.[/quote]

Edea did. She could probably have reached three hunderd or something. But even if she had spend her timetaking care of children of an oprhanage, never using her powers no matter what horrors happened, sooner or later laws of probability are going to nail you.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Aaaah, good point. I didn't even think of Afterlife. (And since the gang DID run into a ghost, it's pretty likely there IS some kind of afterlife. In that case... yeah, even the most saintly of people would probably let someone else deal with the thing for a bit.

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Maybe you should see my pharse "taking in the other world" as an example. Since I pointed out about having regrets(those that really, really matters) before you die will result in a non peaceful death. So no matter where you go or what you become of you after death, the regrets will alway be a burden or something you cannot get rid of.

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Yeah, I think I see what you mean. It IS a possibility, and I like the image, but I also like the one of the battered and ruined body straining and screaming in agony, the soul itself trying to get out of the body that became a prison rather than a home, but Hyne's curse keeping everything going, not allowing death before it is granted its next victim. That's kinda the image I got from Ultimecia. Which would explain why Edea took pity on her. Then again, Edea might feel even Ultimecia doesn't deserve getting stuck with the curse for all eternity.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

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I was thinking 'I die, I'm rid of it' thing. Still.... assuming you CAN die with sorceress power, some of them must have done so.

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Could be true. Since it apply only to die peacefully and not be able to die.

But maybe a person's final goal in life no matter who the person is or what the person do, the person will seek to have a peaceful death. You will usually want to wrap out unfinished business before you leave this world. But even if you are died from an accident or killed by others, you will still desperately use your last breath to finish something that had burdened you for life. Like Ultimecia' case, even she is done for, she still desperately wanted to finish her unfinished business.

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Yep, but sometimes 'wanting desperately'just isn't enough. 'Magically forced to' on the other hand... might just mean that if you have to be in constant dying agony for a hunderd years before you find a suitable replacement, you WILL pass on the power.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

As you said, we don't really know. I like the idea of A sorceress just not dying but staying in absolute powerless and miserable condition till she can 'dump'. Maybe we'll get an answer soon.

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But there will be really a lot of sorceress hiding in this world from the age of Hyne to Squall's time since they might not be able to die in a natural way. But like the tutorial said, their numbers is unknown. So who knows.

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Might be.... remember. There are less and less sorceresses over time, as you can't 'divide' the Power but you can 'merge' them. Good Sorceresses would try to absord the Sorceress power of other dying sorceresses to keep others'safe, while evil Sorceresses would hunt other Sorceresses to acquire more power (Highlander anyone?) (Also, yet ANOTHER cause of death for Sorceresses. Hunted down by other Sorceresses. Plenty of 'immortals' die in Highlander, no?) It is POSSIBLE there are others.... but also possible they're near extinction. (And as powerful as Ulti is, it's not that hard to believe she got 'the whole set'. Any that lived after Squall's age might have been hunted down by Ulti)

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Yeah... it could go either way. But as an R=U defender 'it could go either way' means it's not evidence AGAINST R=U. (it's not evidence IN FAVOR either)

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Well, I am actually more interested to know the truth and remain neutral until the truth is out. :)

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Heheh... A good attitiude, but I allow myself some luxuries for things like games ;) So I'm rooting for 'they DO grow very old'

So Ultimicia could actually be a colection of all these sorcerecess which could not pass on their power... (at least originaly)

If Ultimicia is the only Sorceress in her time, and Rinoa the only known one in hers, chances are that Rinoa's powers make up a lot of Ultimicia's.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

True... but even people at their prime die of illnesses. And don't forget, if we assume that the world of FF VIII went through history just like earth, quite a BIG part of history had LOW life expectancy, no modern medicine, no sanitation, etc. etc. So even while 'pepretually young' with an excellent immune system, you still can catch your death from disease relatively easily.

There's bandits, rampaging soldiers, natural disasters. of course, a Sorceress COULD use her power to resist that, but then she has the problem that she'll be sought as a weapon.

And then of course, there's just Sorceresses that, after the fifth century, just plain old had ENOUGH of life.

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Well, most youngsters that died from illness are mainly those that caught infectious diseases or a plague in the past. But plague dun happen often. And also in the past, it is mostly elderly or those weak ones that become victims of illness and it is still usually those that die from it. And like I stated before, who know if their magic make them immune to those illness.

And also as I mentioned the before, the chances of a random young person catching a diseases is not quite big but a sorceress catching the diseases make the chances smaller. Since out of 100 people, among them, how many sorceress will there be?

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Edea did. She could probably have reached three hunderd or something. But even if she had spend her timetaking care of children of an oprhanage, never using her powers no matter what horrors happened, sooner or later laws of probability are going to nail you.

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It is pretty true that Edea will be spending the rest of her time taking care of those children until the Ultimecia's incident. Maybe this is the horror you are talking about. But like many sorceress, she hide her power and live in seclusion, so I doubt people will just go look for her and kill her just for the sake of killing her. Then what of those sorceress living in hiding? Must they go use their powers to do something good or bad to survive in the world?

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Yeah, I think I see what you mean. It IS a possibility, and I like the image, but I also like the one of the battered and ruined body straining and screaming in agony, the soul itself trying to get out of the body that became a prison rather than a home, but Hyne's curse keeping everything going, not allowing death before it is granted its next victim. That's kinda the image I got from Ultimecia. Which would explain why Edea took pity on her. Then again, Edea might feel even Ultimecia doesn't deserve getting stuck with the curse for all eternity.

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Not really, if they can't die without passing on their powers, then how do those sorceress you fought during time compression die? True if Rinoa absorbed them. But what if Rinoa isn't in the party when you fight them?

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Yep, but sometimes 'wanting desperately'just isn't enough. 'Magically forced to' on the other hand... might just mean that if you have to be in constant dying agony for a hunderd years before you find a suitable replacement, you WILL pass on the power.

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No? When you are on a verge of death, just look for a suitable replacement or someone that is willing to be the replacement and pass on to the replacement.

But I reckon they will still die regardless of this but just might not be able to rest in peace.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Might be.... remember. There are less and less sorceresses over time, as you can't 'divide' the Power but you can 'merge' them. Good Sorceresses would try to absord the Sorceress power of other dying sorceresses to keep others'safe,

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But how will the good sorceress know when or where is there a dying sorceress since everyone is hiding themselves from the world. The chances are very slim.

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

while evil Sorceresses would hunt other Sorceresses to acquire more power (Highlander anyone?) (Also, yet ANOTHER cause of death for Sorceresses. Hunted down by other Sorceresses. Plenty of 'immortals' die in Highlander, no?) It is POSSIBLE there are others.... but also possible they're near extinction. (And as powerful as Ulti is, it's not that hard to believe she got 'the whole set'. Any that lived after Squall's age might have been hunted down by Ulti)

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You mean they hunt each other down to absorb each other powers? I dun think they will deliberately do it but might do it if they have a chance. Remember most sorceress live in hiding how much of a trouble to find them all. So why didn't Adel go look for other sorceress to absorb their power to turn the tables around after the first sorceress war ended? She can absorb all their powers and took on the Galbadian on her own.Instead she go look for a successor instead.

If Adel is not possessed by Ultimecia at the point of the successor searching events, it is possible that she is also interested in using Time Compression to absorb all the other sorceress powers after Odine told her of his foundings.

Adel absorbed Rinoa cause she is just in front of her. But seeking each other out will take centuries since the good sorceress will know the evil sorceress will be after her and constantly be on the run or go into hiding.

Ultimecia tried to get the whole set by using time compression which will absorb all sorceress' power into one instead of seeking them out one by one. If she had the whole set, she is just another or might be a "Hyne" which will question why will she use time compression?

See Below:

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/7...ecia8kb.th.png

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Originally Posted by Rand Al'Tor

Heheh... A good attitiude, but I allow myself some luxuries for things like games So I'm rooting for 'they DO grow very old'

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I personally feel like they do grow old but I am not rooting for anything. :)

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Originally Posted by ThePheonix

If Ultimicia is the only Sorceress in her time, and Rinoa the only known one in hers, chances are that Rinoa's powers make up a lot of Ultimicia's.

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There is a time in the game which Rinoa said that her power will sooner or later be passed on the Ultimecia. I believe it is in the Ragnarok.

A few things I will point out:

1) Edea says she got her first set of powers at 5. This implies that she has aged since she was a child. Although it's possible that a sorceress might grow to adulthood and then stop aging, there's not really anything supporting that claim. So I'd say the most likely thing is that if a sorceress has a different lifespan, it's merely extended, not infinite.

2) We don't know how many sorceress there were to begin with(ie. how many Hyne gave his powers too). We also do not know how long ago it was since this happened. But odds are that he didn't split his powers into hundreds of fragments, and odds are that it happened a very long time ago.

Based on this, the problem of a sorceress not dying while in hiding and all that is solved, simply because over long enough time, they will die eventually anyway. Sure, in the course of 1 year, chances that a sorceress might catch a disease and die are slim, but over two thousand years or so, the chances are significantly larger.

3) Sorceresses may not always have been so deep in hiding as they are in FF8s era. As such, sorceresses might still have known about eachother so they could give eachother their powers. As before, given enough time, the amount of sorceresses would be reduced.

4) Ultimecia could never have gotten all the sorceress powers without time compression. The only other way is to hunt them all down and kill them, but since Junction Machine Ellone is limited, she could only get the powers of the sorceresses Edea, Adel, Rinoa and any other sorceress between them and her own time. Any sorceress before that, and in Ultimecias future, she would not be able to get.

So even though Ultimecia may have hunted down and killed the sorceress of her time, she still has every reason to use TC.

NOTE: If Odine is correct that Ultimecia will really be the only sorceress of her time, then there will be no sorceresses after Ultimecia. Naturally though, Ultimecia does not know this, so she still has every reason to compress time for any future powers.

5) FYI, the japanese FF8 has Edea saying "A sorceress cannot die while she has her powers", which seems to make it straight forward, but analysed in it's context, it still seems like the meaning is similar to the one in the english version.

But as I said, this is unsolved until the Ultimania gets here.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

We don't know how many sorceress there were to begin with(ie. how many Hyne gave his powers too). We also do not know how long ago it was since this happened. But odds are that he didn't split his powers into hundreds of fragments, and odds are that it happened a very long time ago.

Based on this, the problem of a sorceress not dying while in hiding and all that is solved, simply because over long enough time, they will die eventually anyway. Sure, in the course of 1 year, chances that a sorceress might catch a disease and die are slim, but over two thousand years or so, the chances are significantly larger.

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Not quite. But if it is meant that a sorceress grew old and caught an disease and die, then I must agree to that. But if a sorceress stay in her prime and catch a life threatening disease, it is then most likely to be a plague or something but the chances which I think is still pretty low. Considering there is still a handful a sorceress and if all them in their prime.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

3) Sorceresses may not always have been so deep in hiding as they are in FF8s era. As such, sorceresses might still have known about eachother so they could give eachother their powers. As before, given enough time, the amount of sorceresses would be reduced.

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I dun really see it this way. Those that are not hiding usually will keep their identities secret or make a big ruckus like Adel and Edea.

I dun really think they will reveal their identities to just anybody and if they happen to, what are the chances that the person that heard the news is also a sorceress.

Like what was stated before, evil sorceress might hunt good sorceress for their powers, so it made mutual trust among them questionable.

And if sorceress do get together, then the role of a knight might not play such a big role. Since sorceress themselves will be able to form a group or such to protect themselves and support each other.

One of the reason of rogue sorceress is that suffer loneliness and condemnation from the world without anyone to accept her. And also, what are the chances that the sorceress that give Edea's her power might know other sorceress. Then why didn't she give her power to her sorceress' friend?

Or maybe there is something like the black mage village like in FF IX but in this case, then there is this place where sorceress get together?

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

4) Ultimecia could never have gotten all the sorceress powers without time compression. The only other way is to hunt them all down and kill them, but since Junction Machine Ellone is limited, she could only get the powers of the sorceresses Edea, Adel, Rinoa and any other sorceress between them and her own time. Any sorceress before that, and in Ultimecias future, she would not be able to get.

So even though Ultimecia may have hunted down and killed the sorceress of her time, she still has every reason to use TC.

NOTE: If Odine is correct that Ultimecia will really be the only sorceress of her time, then there will be no sorceresses after Ultimecia. Naturally though, Ultimecia does not know this, so she still has every reason to compress time for any future powers.

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The main reason is that she wanted to gain every possible sorceress' power throughout history and the future. So if she is the "whole set" like mentioned, then that will defeat the purpose of time compression.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

5) FYI, the japanese FF8 has Edea saying "A sorceress cannot die while she has her powers", which seems to make it straight forward, but analysed in it's context, it still seems like the meaning is similar to the one in the english version.

But as I said, this is unsolved until the Ultimania gets here.

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Then I must admit to the fact that a sorceress can't die unless her powers is passed on. So regarding the sorceress that was fought in Time compression, I reckon that they passed to Rinoa or they just got absorbed into time? Or their powers got absorbed by Ultimecia.

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Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy

It clutches at straws a bit because their only evidence is that Edea, Rinoa and Ultimecia look young for their age. Especially if you compare Cid to Edea. Assuming that their supposed to be more or less the same age, Cid does look a lot older.

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Edea could easily look like she's in her thirties, she doesn't have to be the same age as Cid. Wait, does it say somewhere that she's 35? Or does my memory make up stuff?

Rinoa? Young for her age? She's seventeen, I think she looks pretty seventeen-ish. Maybe older.

And we don't know exactly how old Ultimecia is, do we? :)

I think looks can be a bit deceiving to determine someone age.

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Not quite. But if it is meant that a sorceress grew old and caught an disease and die, then I must agree to that. But if a sorceress stay in her prime and catch a life threatening disease, it is then most likely to be a plague or something but the chances which I think is still pretty low. Considering there is still a handful a sorceress and if all them in their prime.

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As I said, chances may be low, but given enough time, sorceresses WILL die. There's no escaping that.

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I dun really see it this way. Those that are not hiding usually will keep their identities secret or make a big ruckus like Adel and Edea.

I dun really think they will reveal their identities to just anybody and if they happen to, what are the chances that the person that heard the news is also a sorceress.

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You seem to have missed my point. I was talking about the time when sorceresses were still fairly new. Although the whole war against Hyne would probably have made people alert to sorceresses already in the beginning, it's doubtful that they would have been feared and despised as much in the beginning years. Heck, they might not even have been discovered until after quite a while.

So my point is that sorceresses may have interacted early on, BEFORE the witch hunt attitude came along, and most went into hiding. Also, a sorceress can probably tell if someone else is a sorceress anyway, so it's probably not a case of anyone having to shout out that they are a sorceress or anything.

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Like what was stated before, evil sorceress might hunt good sorceress for their powers, so it made mutual trust among them questionable.

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True enough, but these things happen gradually. I sort of doubt that the moment the first women/girls became sorceresses, they all ran out into the woods and mountains and hid themselves forever.

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And if sorceress do get together, then the role of a knight might not play such a big role. Since sorceress themselves will be able to form a group or such to protect themselves and support each other.

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As I said, I'm speculationg about the first era of sorceresses here. Obviously after some time, sorceresses either faded away from public, choosing 'knights' to support them, or went evil. But in the first era, such things may have happened.

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And also, what are the chances that the sorceress that give Edea's her power might know other sorceress. Then why didn't she give her power to her sorceress' friend?

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As I said, the chances may be slim, but given enough time, these things will happen. It's a basic law of nature; given enough time, every non-zero probability will occur naturally. In other words, even though sorceress may have hid themselves away and all that, every now and then a dying sorceress will find another sorceress(probably through magic, or because they knew eachother or whatever) to give her powers too.

I don't think there is some sort of black mage vilage thing, but I guess it's impossible to tell.

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The main reason is that she wanted to gain every possible sorceress' power throughout history and the future. So if she is the "whole set" like mentioned, then that will defeat the purpose of time compression.

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Uh, no offense, but you must have either not read that point or completely misunderstood it. Because that's essentially what I was saying, only with an added explanation which allows Ultimecia to have collected the powers of her era. Please read it through again.

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Then I must admit to the fact that a sorceress can't die unless her powers is passed on.

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No no no, did you not read what I said? Please, you need to slow down and read my posts carefully. I clearly said that despite that the japanese version seems to make it unambiguous, upon further analysis(on the japanese line by a japanese speaker) it seems that the essence of the line is the same as the essence of the english line.

So you don't have to admit to anything. That line does not settle anything. Rather, we must wait for the Ultimania to settle the matter.

As for the sorceresses fought in TC, I think it's plausible their powers were absorbed by Ultimecia.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

You seem to have missed my point. I was talking about the time when sorceresses were still fairly new. Although the whole war against Hyne would probably have made people alert to sorceresses already in the beginning, it's doubtful that they would have been feared and despised as much in the beginning years. Heck, they might not even have been discovered until after quite a while.

So my point is that sorceresses may have interacted early on, BEFORE the witch hunt attitude came along, and most went into hiding. Also, a sorceress can probably tell if someone else is a sorceress anyway, so it's probably not a case of anyone having to shout out that they are a sorceress or anything.

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But they will most likely forget each other with the passing of time. And during the witch hunt, they were all probably be seperated. So it is possible that their number did reduce when they are able to interact with each other.

But if a sorceress is able to tell someone else is also a sorceress, then will it be possible that she will also sense where her friend is and when her friend is going to die then making there in time.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

True enough, but these things happen gradually. I sort of doubt that the moment the first women/girls became sorceresses, they all ran out into the woods and mountains and hid themselves forever.

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The first thing Rinoa think of is staying with Squall forever in space then she decided to go the the sorceress memorial to be locked up.
So it is possible but it is in Rinoa's time that is. But there is still possible that they choose not to tell anyone and keep it a secret to everyone around them.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

As I said, I'm speculationg about the first era of sorceresses here. Obviously after some time, sorceresses either faded away from public, choosing 'knights' to support them, or went evil. But in the first era, such things may have happened.

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Quite true here.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

As I said, the chances may be slim, but given enough time, these things will happen. It's a basic law of nature; given enough time, every non-zero probability will occur naturally. In other words, even though sorceress may have hid themselves away and all that, every now and then a dying sorceress will find another sorceress(probably through magic, or because they knew eachother or whatever) to give her powers too.

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Maybe. But I dun think everyone will specifically go look for another sorceress to pass their powers to. Not everyone think in a same way. Some might met an accident and desperately wanted to pass the power to someone. Or the other just wanted to pick someone they deemed fit as their successor pretty much like Adel. But since Adel is different since she had vile purposes of her own.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

I don't think there is some sort of black mage vilage thing, but I guess it's impossible to tell.

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Since there might be a group formed by sorceress in the earlier age, so who knows, It might be among the ruins in Centra forgotten with the passing of time. But like you said, it is impossible to tell. :)

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Uh, no offense, but you must have either not read that point or completely misunderstood it. Because that's essentially what I was saying, only with an added explanation which allows Ultimecia to have collected the powers of her era. Please read it through again.

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Ya, sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

No no no, did you not read what I said? Please, you need to slow down and read my posts carefully. I clearly said that despite that the japanese version seems to make it unambiguous, upon further analysis(on the japanese line by a japanese speaker) it seems that the essence of the line is the same as the essence of the english line.

So you don't have to admit to anything. That line does not settle anything. Rather, we must wait for the Ultimania to settle the matter.

As for the sorceresses fought in TC, I think it's plausible their powers were absorbed by Ultimecia.

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So the japanese are trying to say they need to pass their power to die peacefully? Pretty much like the english version had better explaination of everything like FF VII where they added the Zack and Cloud's cutscene.

And again, sorry for not reading it thoroughly.

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Maybe. But I dun think everyone will specifically go look for another sorceress to pass their powers to. Not everyone think in a same way. Some might met an accident and desperately wanted to pass the power to someone.

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Tha's true. But in general, a sorceress will want to give her powers to an already existing sorceress. Naturally though, that doesn't mean that everyone will.

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So the japanese are trying to say they need to pass their power to die peacefully?

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Well, the way it is said in japanese sort of implies that dying with her powers is not a desireable state for Ultimecia. In other words, she doesn't WANT to die with her powers. Not so much that she CAN'T. But as I said, this is still a bit loose, so the Ultimania will have the final word.

By the way, the rest of your points I haven't responded to because there's not much more to say about them.

Actually Quistis is Ultimecia because they are both fat.

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Originally Posted by Mihhailovitš

Actually Quistis is Ultimecia because they are both fat.

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O_O LMAO