Cloud was lying, right?

Yes, another topic about the plot of FFVII, though already talked about to death.

Everyone seems to have this assumption about Cloud being 'confused' or having his memories 'merged' with Zack's, after he died, or something. That the voice that speaks to Cloud is his 'true self' trying to break through. Where did all these ideas come from, exactly? I always thought for sure that after Zack died, Cloud simply got up, went to Midgar, and when he saw Tifa he continued his charade that he played five years ago at Nibelheim. He just lied his way through the retelling of that mission, his position in SOLDIER, everything. After all, he could tell Tifa that he'd visited Nibelheim five years ago and started a huge dance competition, or anything he'd like, because she'd lost her memory of that particular day.

Please indulge me.

Cloud and Zack were captured by Hojo after the Sephiroth's incident.
Hojo conducted inhuman experiment on them.
Zack managed to break free and also saved Cloud.
Zack managed to withstand the effect of the experiment because he was once a SOLDIER and his mind is also pretty strong. Where else Cloud seem to be in a vegetable state.
Zack told Cloud about his life and everything in a truck when they escaped.
Cloud in a dazed state thought those were his memories and got mixed up.
When they are near Midgar, Shrina Soldiers appeared and killed Zack. The commander thought that Cloud is just a wastrel and there's nothing to worry from him so they spared Cloud.
Cloud later picked up Zack's sword and thought it was his and headed to Midgar where he met Tifa at a train station.

The flashback in Nibelheim five years ago is Cloud playing the role of Zack but actually he is one the two regular Shrina Solidier that went along with the mission.

I am aware of everything you have stated. But still, I ask, where does this come into play in the game? Where is this stated that this is true, and Cloud in fact did not just simply lie?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Desperado

I am aware of everything you have stated. But still, I ask, where does this come into play in the game? Where is this stated that this is true, and Cloud in fact did not just simply lie?

---

By watching the cutscene when you revisit the Shinra mansion?

Just something to add:

After Tifa's free his mind in Disc 2, everything he said is pretty truth and before that, mostly he had no idea what he is saying and most probably will be defined as "lies".

In the fact that Tifa remembers all this happening, and when Cloud's memories get sorted out in the life stream. We know Nibelheim burned down. That's stated even by Shin Ra agents working in town (the letter is in Tifa's room). Hojo's notes can be found in the basement of the ShinRa mansion. The game states outright that all of this happened, and that Cloud was merely confused in his role. It happened, and we see the right version of events after Cloud is himself again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Desperado

Yes, another topic about the plot of FFVII, though already talked about to death.

Everyone seems to have this assumption about Cloud being 'confused' or having his memories 'merged' with Zack's, after he died, or something. That the voice that speaks to Cloud is his 'true self' trying to break through. Where did all these ideas come from, exactly? I always thought for sure that after Zack died, Cloud simply got up, went to Midgar, and when he saw Tifa he continued his charade that he played five years ago at Nibelheim. He just lied his way through the retelling of that mission, his position in SOLDIER, everything. After all, he could tell Tifa that he'd visited Nibelheim five years ago and started a huge dance competition, or anything he'd like, because she'd lost her memory of that particular day.

Please indulge me.

---

Cloud never played through any sort of "charade" in Nibelheim five years ago. As a common soldier, he was ashamed of the fact that he was not in SOLDIER and did not reveal his identity to Tifa. As a result, she never even knew he was in the town at the time of its destruction. After throwing Sephiroth into the depths of the reactor (what actually happened becomes clear when Tifa helps Cloud find himself in the Lifestream), the wounded Cloud was captured by Hojo. He and Zack were used in Mako and JENOVA cell experimentation by Hojo, but both eventually escaped. Cloud, however, did not react well to the JENOVA therapy (this was, in fact, likely the reason he never made SOLDIER in the first place). The JENOVA cells, in conjunction with Cloud's own self-doubt, caused him to lose his full sense of self, so to speak. As he and Zack travelled toward Midgar, Zack's account of the events got muddled in Cloud's mind. Cloud, in his delirium, managed to place himself in Zack's role during the events that occurred in Nibelheim. This was what was indicated by the screen flashing when Tifa first discovered Cloud at the Train Station (in a flashback).

Tifa never lost her memories of that day; Cloud's conflicting version of the story simply confused the hell out of her, since she knew that Cloud was not Zack. However, for fear of harming Cloud (who obviously sincerely believed what he was saying), she didn't explain that Cloud's version of events was impossible.

After the Mideel Lifestream incident, Cloud helps explain exactly what happened to his allies.

Quote:

---

Cloud: I never was in SOLDIER. I made up the stories about what happened to me
five years ago, about being in SOLDIER. I left my village looking for glory, but
never made it in to SOLDIER...... I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I
heard this story from my friend Zack... And I created an illusion of myself made
up of what I had seen in my life...... And I continued to play the charade as if
it were true.

Barret: Illusion, huh...? Pretty damn strong for a 'llusion, I'd say.

Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own
illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm
going to live my life without pretending.

---

As to the matter of "the Voice" being Coud's subconscious, this essay should clear up any confusion.

Hope all this helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by masamune1600

As a common soldier, he was ashamed of the fact that he was not in SOLDIER and did not reveal his identity to Tifa.

---

This is what I meant by the 'charade.'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by masamune1600

Tifa never lost her memories of that day; Cloud's conflicting version of the story simply confused the hell out of her, since she knew that Cloud was not Zack. However, for fear of harming Cloud (who obviously sincerely believed what he was saying), she didn't explain that Cloud's version of events was impossible.

---

I'll have to check the game script on that one, but it sounds logical. All of these sound logical, but I need clear-cut proof to fully accept it.

I just thought that Cloud lied about Nibelheim, and Tifa lost her memory. Don't remember where the whole memory loss thing came in, but I'll check up on it.

EDIT: Ok, after a quick scan the logic masamune1600 used is pretty convincing. Which sucks, because the way I saw the game before was far superior. So then, Tifa knew all along that everything Cloud explained in Kalm was total crap? She knew the whole time, that Cloud had fufilled the promise he made at the well, and that Cloud failed, and everything?! Damn... that ruins the whole game, for crying out loud.

Tifa didnt know that Cloud had fulfilled the promise, she wasnt concious.

She didnt say anything because she was unsure herself, she didnt know Cloud had been there at all, and certainly not as a SOLDIER in place of Zack. She didnt know he was a grunt, but she did know his recollection of events wasnt spot on. However, she sensed that telling him would severely screw with his already messed up mind, so she tried to gently remind him of things, also doing so to assure herself that this really was the Cloud she grew up with.

Why are there threads about this topic, the story to FFVII is so easy..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gibbi8

Why are there threads about this topic, the story to FFVII is so easy..

---

Jesus christ, either you're really intelligent and figured it out straight away (doubtful) or you simply do not know it in depth. The story to FFVII isn't so easy.

I'm gonna go for the third option. He's just trying to sound intelligent.

Yeah, most probably. Maybe we should get him to write up about the story in full depth, see what he says.

Believe me, folks, I understood the story of FFVII far better than most people a long time ago. The only thing was, as someone noted, I had confused Tifa's being unconscious with her losing total memory of the incident. Because of this, Cloud either had to lie, or have his memory merged. It doesn't ever flat-out say, "And then Cloud's memories merged with Zack's, after he talked to him on the truck." However, it does use the term 'lie,' I think, which because of my misunderstanding about Tifa caused me to create a false idea of the game's story.

Yes, I do see the logic in it now. Thank you for clearing it up.

sounds fair :rolleyes2

I always thought Clouds memories being confused with Zacks was partly because of his own urge to be Zack. Or be in Soldier to be more specific. I know the Jenova cells confusing him were what allowed it to happen in the first place but I always got the impression Cloud fantasized about being Zack. Even the way he followed Zacks movements and speech in the truck at the start of the flashback.

He did. Zack did what Cloud couldnt by becoming a SOLDIER... and from what I can tell, Zack seemed like a very personable guy, and maybe even befriended Cloud before it all went bad. Zack was the kind of guy Cloud always wanted to be, the kind of guy who would be able to impress Tifa like Cloud never could (or so Cloud believed). So, the combination of his weakened state, Zack's presence, and eventually being found by the woman he was so desperate to prove himself to all served to create this confused alter-ego sort of deal.

The whole things seem pretty realistic, actually. If a person just hears... a voice when they're in a semi-catatonic state, it'd make sense that once the person snaps out of it, the brain would wonder what it all meant. I should ask on some Psychology website whether screwed-up memories like this could really occur from being semi-catatonic for a while...

A note to Dr. Casey: I think catatonic is a well-enough way to describe Cloud's state. Catatonia is the state in which someone suffers from immobility and stupor. Stupor is equal to near-unconsciousness. Even a sleeping individual can hear voices when people are talking around them.
Cloud was catatonic, not semi-catatonic. He was able to hear (though possibly not completely understand) Zack's stories even though he couldn't see him.



Anyway, I think Cloud was lying. How else would you expect a dufus like him to get so close to Aeris? He purposely acted like Zack to get into her . . . um . . . what the hell is that thing she wears?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Desperado

it does use the term 'lie,' I think, which because of my misunderstanding about Tifa caused me to create a false idea of the game's story.

---

You are Cloud.