niger

niger is in a pretty poor state right now. 3 million people are starving. a third of it's poplation. and why? a locut plague then a drought. so they have a famine right now? is this new news? no. the un were told in october it was going to happen. but noone bothered. ignored it. so 3 weeks after the g8. billions of people watched live 8. a quarter of a million people marched in edinburgh. when we were promised we could make a difference. things could change. they would change. we would end starvation and poverty, 3 weeks after that yet again we watch africans starve on our tv.

why?

You can't end starvation. Simple as that. People made a difference though, even if it's not a lot. You can't destroy starvation, and you certainly can't dimish in it what, a month?

Because our problems are more important than theirs.

but the thing is....... we knew this was happening. it wasn't sudden. but the world stood back and did nothing yet again. it was happy to sit back and do nothing again and con us all into thinking that a difference had been made.

and ed what problems are these?

because people like you annoy people like me with constantly going on about poverty and we eventualy stop caring.

your right. i should stop going on about it. because you don't need to worry. 3 million people starving is nothing to worry about. a preventable crisis ignored by the world's richest countries isn't a problem. this isn't a disaster. this isn't you. it doesn't touch on your life? so why should you care? why would this make a difference to you? why in the grand scheme of things would 3 million people make an impact on you? why should you bother? because there are more important things in your life? because you are above all this? your life is harder than living in the 2nd poorest country on this earth? you've experienced famine on this scale before and it's a piece of cake? because it's not on your door step? or because the only thing you care about is your own life and not anyone else?

and people like me? people like me bang on about this because you are not filled with apathy. because we care. because people like you exist. because your view is the reason this was ignored by the world in october. why people are starving right now. just shut up and it will all go away? no. not until people like you stand up and take notice. not until people like you decide that enough is enough. not until people like you refuse to be filled with greed and apathy will people like me stop banging on about 3 million people starving. when people like you stop being a mere side step away from taking part in this genocide. when people like you stop acting like this is nothing and are morally close to builing auschwitz. when people like yiou stop turning a blind eye and end this suffering and death instead of perpetuating it. then people like me will stop trying to open your eyes to this. then people like me will stop trying to make you see that you are part of this and it needs to stop.

"All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." stop doing nothing.

What do we need to worry about??? For one london had terrorist bombings so clean up and more security are need as well as investigations so that equals tons of money.

I am not satified with the USA's medical plan or medical anything in general. High insurance, drug prices and everything. Not to mention social security, getting off of foriegn oil and the war in Iraq.

Sorry but Africa takes a back seat. Also nothing will change over there. Throwing money at the situation is not the solution. They just have a smurfed up society in general. Bad dictor rules country. Gets over thrown by someone who in turn acts the same way. Repeat. It has been going on like that forever and because of this they have not been able to work together to do anything. I am sick of helping them. There are countries such as South Africa that try to make strides to help everyone and make the country better overall but far to many of them are as I described above.

I agree with you Cloud No. 9, you are clearly a very caring person,and we could do something to stop it. But I learned to realize that some people don' t really care what happens in other countries until it starts to affect them, wouldn't you agree. I'm sure if plague and famine crossed to North America and Africa was rich they'd realize what was going on.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

but the thing is....... we knew this was happening. it wasn't sudden. but the world stood back and did nothing yet again. it was happy to sit back and do nothing again and con us all into thinking that a difference had been made.

and ed what problems are these?

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You expect the UN to make a difference? They can't even call Darfur a genocide and you think they can bring an entire country with economic disaster, cultural paucity, political difficulties, and famine and drought, out of that situation in three weeks?

Sorry, but everyone cares about themselves first. The US and UK and Australia are worrying about terrorism, the price of oil, the war in Iraq, and potential economic issues. Europe is also working on the EU, and faces similar problems to the above nations. China and India are getting themselves up out of the very kinds of poverty here, they're worrying about all the many attendant issues, and they're largely doing it themselves.

I sympathise with the African people. But they have to help themselves. The major thing I believe we outside of Africa should do is to remove trade barriers and phase out subsidaries and the like for domestic producers in various countries.

ed. it would take 10 9-11 attacks daily to match starvation in this world. if i had to choose between a daily attack like that and to end that death toll. i know who's side i would be on.

oh and boo hoo the yanks pay alot of health insurance. diddums for them i'm crying my eyes out here for them. i really am. i'm really sorry for going on about africa folks if i realised that america had such huge problems as that i would have never brought this entire disaster up. you do have far more important things to be concerned with. drug prices are what i should be caring about.

It's not much to ask for well-off people like ourselves to give a bit of money that might save someone's life. It's surprising just how much of a difference one person can make if they want to, and while a single person can't solve world hunger, there's a good chance that they could save a person's life. A miniscule contribution in global terms, but a huge one on an individual level. Solving the major economic and social issues is up to the governments, but that doesn't mean we can't play a role too.

I'm not asking anyone to donate money, just consider that the act of giving aid to Africa isn't as pointless as some suggest.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

ed. it would take 10 9-11 attacks daily to match starvation in this world. if i had to choose between a daily attack like that and to end that death toll. i know who's side i would be on.

oh and boo hoo the yanks pay alot of health insurance. diddums for them i'm crying my eyes out here for them. i really am. i'm really sorry for going on about africa folks if i realised that america had such huge problems as that i would have never brought this entire disaster up. you do have far more important things to be concerned with. drug prices are what i should be carrying about.

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You know what, your anti American/Western attitude is really bugging me. Just because WE'RE not striken with poverty doesn't mean we're bad greedy people.

And we weren't alway so rich. We had the Great Depression. It wasn't to the scale of the poverty in Africa, but did we get donations from everywhere? No. We helped ourselves, though it was hard. I'm not saying screw Africa, I'm saying that they have to take a step to help theirselves, like Mr. MILF said. And maybe some Americans/Western people would be more happy to help if some people weren't like "YEAH YOU GO EAT YOUR DINNER WHILE EVERYONE STARVES, YOU BAD BAD PEOPLE."

sorry this wasn't meant to be a general afria thread. it was about the world turning a blind eye to niger.

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Originally Posted by Black Mage 121

I'm not asking anyone to donate money, just consider that the act of giving aid to Africa isn't as pointless as some suggest.

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But it is. The only thing this achieves is to create more poverty, and to lock Africa into an endless cycle of taking aid and funding dictatorships with it.

Cloud No.9, I'm with Rye here. You seem unable to get your head around the fact that people care about their own nations first. If Africa was rich and Europe poor, I wouldn't expect help. Hope for it, maybe. Expect it, no.

so tell me what should 3 million peple from niger do without food today? oh that's their fault they had a locust plague. and their fault they had a drought after that. it's their fault this was ignored. it's their fault they will starve tonight.

and yes the great depression. what america did there...... withdrew german loans. so the people starved and looked for a strong leader. go america! look out for yourself screw the repurcusions! and america topok out massive massive loans during the depression. and some war or other sorted out the economy.

and i don't say people who eat are bad. i say that people like ed there who think that his drug prices are more important than the niger crisis are.

and why do we need to care bout our nations first? out of selfishness? a lack of caring about others? the "it doesn't affect me so why should i care" attitude?

and milf if i was dying of starvation i would actually want some food.

maybe the western world needs a famine. one on the scale of africa. so when our woman and children are dying. when people can't feed themselves they suddenly think "yeah this is kinda bad"

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

But it is. The only thing this achieves is to create more poverty, and to lock Africa into an endless cycle of taking aid and funding dictatorships with it.

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Perhaps you're right, and I'm simply being too optimistic. But I'd say that responsibly distributed aid, combined with political action, would be able to start the process of lifting Africa out of poverty. For the continent to truly recover it will have to do a lot to help itself, true. But self-determination can't go far without fair trading rules and economic practices, which are the responsibility of our own governments to implement. Meanwhile, as ordinary citizens we can do our bit to save a few lives, and bring some small joy to people who suffer so much.

Again, maybe I'm just being optimistic, but that's the way see things, and I don't see how doing nothing is going to make the situation any better.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

ed. it would take 10 9-11 attacks daily to match starvation in this world. if i had to choose between a daily attack like that and to end that death toll. i know who's side i would be on.

oh and boo hoo the yanks pay alot of health insurance. diddums for them i'm crying my eyes out here for them. i really am. i'm really sorry for going on about africa folks if i realised that america had such huge problems as that i would have never brought this entire disaster up. you do have far more important things to be concerned with. drug prices are what i should be caring about.

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Maybe the countries with starvation should do something about it themselves for a change. We are way beyond the dawn of man. I would have expected that these countries would be able to have a competent government that helps out its people and tries to make the country a better place for its citizens.

Helping them out is one thing but it isn't like a lot of these countries even try. I just don't care about them and they can starve. They need to figure out a system in which they can live and survive and it isn't happening. If the countries were really trying then I would be more inclined to help them. Say if South Africa was in trouble. I would want to help them because from what I see they actually try to be a good government and are trying to get everyone on the same cultural and civilized ground.

As for your second paragraph...I am glad that you feel my plight. Also Healthcare, drug costs and social security actually threaten to eat up most of the American taxes in the next 50 years unless something is done. That to me says it needs to be fixed so that we can continue to help the world.

You don't think long term at all. You are just short term quick fix to a problem instead of something that will last long with out our constant involvement.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

but the thing is....... we knew this was happening. it wasn't sudden. but the world stood back and did nothing yet again. it was happy to sit back and do nothing again and con us all into thinking that a difference had been made.

and ed what problems are these?

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The thing is though they are have nots and the 1st world countries are haves.

Trust me another 3rd world ory will help out Niger.You see its always the people who have nothing to help people with that actually helps people.Organizations run like people.lol.

"I just don't care about them and they can starve." for that little comment ed i will tell you this. one day soon i hope you are in niger. starving. days without food. i hope that malnutrition slowly sets in. your stomach swells and your stomach acid eats at your intestinal walls. i hope you cannot get up from the pain of starvation. i hope that you lie there with days to live unable to do anything. your eyes glazed over with flies covering you. that you cannot speak to tell peple what pain you are and the only hope is that tomorrow you will die. i hope that day comes for you when you die of starvation. but don't worry it won't. so why should you care about these people?

maybe when all that happens you will learn about empathy, justice and greed.

ed. i just don't care about you and you can starve.

oh and ed of course i feel your plight. isee the great tragedy now. american taxes are soo important. because if america isn't allwed to grow fatter then when eventually it is fully rich and a few more million people have died ameirca might get round to helping the world. so the best thing for me to do is sit back and watch america grow richer, millions more die and the rest of the world get poorer. and then one day when america is perfect they will step in and sort out this mess. god now i'm so much more at ease with this. i just need to wait until that magical day when americans don't whine about taxes and have enough money they care about anything else but their own wealth and drug prices and insurance.

i'll stop going on about africa now ed has explained that all i need to is wait for more africans die and america will get round to it eventually.

phew problem solved.

The problem with Western society is that far too often we look out for number one. That's really just an ideological thing, but what do we do to change?

Think about Rwanda, where thousands of people were getting butchered daily in a veritable genocide about ten years ago. For anyone that's seen the movie Hotel Rwanda, Joaquin Phoenix's line about how "People will watch this on the news, say that's terrible, and go back to eating their dinner" pretty much sums up everything that isn't in our best interests.

We're often too selfish, whether we like to admit it or not. If it doesn't involve us, we don't care.

hasn't the BONGA FPSO vessel started oil production yet? yeah it is in a state but like most afvrican countries you need to give them aid and tell them how to use it and help themselves from then

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Originally Posted by Fresno

We're often too selfish, whether we like to admit it or not. If it doesn't involve us, we don't care.

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I have never stated otherwise. I 'care' about Africa insofar as I would prefer it if there weren't poverty. I don't care enough to damage my own objectives in life. I don't care about anyone or anything enough to do that, except for my immediate friends, who could be classed as my own objectives anyway.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

so tell me what should 3 million peple from niger do without food today? oh that's their fault they had a locust plague. and their fault they had a drought after that. it's their fault this was ignored. it's their fault they will starve tonight.

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It's not their fault it happened. It is their fault they don't have safeguards in place against it, and it is their fault that they've spent the last few decades smurfing around with corrupt and violent governments instead of democracy or something.

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and yes the great depression. what america did there...... withdrew german loans. so the people starved and looked for a strong leader. go america! look out for yourself screw the repurcusions! and america topok out massive massive loans during the depression. and some war or other sorted out the economy.

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Please tell me you just made that up. If you learnt it from a teacher, I'd like to know who it is so that I can take action to get them fired, and if you learnt it from a textbook I would like to have it removed from the curriculum.

Newsflash for j00: All nations consider their own interests first. That is all there is to it. America is no better, no worse, than Niger. Or Germany. Or Britain. Or Canada. Or anyone.

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and why do we need to care bout our nations first? out of selfishness? a lack of caring about others? the "it doesn't affect me so why should i care" attitude?

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The government which helps 'other people' at the expense of it's own, or even the perception thereof, is a short-lived government indeed.

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and milf if i was dying of starvation i would actually want some food.

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Because I totally said I wanted to starve to death. :rolleyes2 Jesus Christ. I said I wouldn't believe I deserved help.

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maybe when all that happens you will learn about empathy, justice and greed.

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You have shown your true colors with that post. You have actively wished suffering on someone simply because they disagree with your methods of how a problem should be solved. Nobody likes poverty (Except those of us who believe it should be inflicted as a punishment when one's own views are contravened.), but apparently the belief that poverty will be remedied by African effort and African ingenuity rather than propping up corrupt governments makes us the very epitome of evil. The failure to recognize that just because we believe in a different cure, we endorse the illness, shows that you are either a [person] with no concept of 'difference of opinion', or that you are wholeheartedly commited to badmouthing the evil Amerikkka at every oppurtunity.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

ed. i just don't care about you and you can starve.

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Warn :D

And I agree with what MILF had to say. I don't see giving aid to them to be a good thing. Who are we going to give it to? The people? HELL NO! We give it to the corrupt governments who in the past have withheld that very aid to retain and control the people.

If I were starving then I would go out and try to find some food and even go to war with the government just to get food.

Starvation is a great tool for over throwing a government but give the government the food to supply to people and they can keep them complacent. Nothing changes.

The world has its problems and many forieners hate us. While we can help the suffering of others we should. Well help them.. not thier suffering.. er yah.

Anyways I think instead of dumpin resources on them and watching them go, we should teach the people to allocate thier resources. They dont have many, but the DO have some.

Our country is only as good as the world, as we are internationalized. I pray to GOD that we can all agree on that. With a pit like Niger in the world, I know something should be done.

Enforcing free and fair trade would be the best. Opposers of this say that is causes jobs to be exported, which is not all true. Coorperate scum feeding off these already hard ridden people cause jobs to be exported. Fair trade would cause a stable world economy which would help our own home out as well as billions of others.

On the same note we must realize that fair trade is not going to be fair. I am not sure on the motivations of China building thier army, and korea planning nuclear advancement, but if we could put our guns down we would get a lot more done.

Our porblems at home must also be figured out, sure. But if people would grow a consious in our goverenment (US)(all three branches) and in the leads of our companies, many of the problems would fix themselves.

Luthren Christans have many litinys praying for this. I just hate to see people sit back and pray, and I am sure that GOD would like to see us do some more about it. We should all be active (no matter what religion obviously) in improving our home. By home I mean the planet, we are all on the same rock - like it or not.

Just my feelings,
Bipper

Hate hate hate everywhere I see. The sad thing is this, Cloud No. 9 was just expressing concern for Niger. Is she idealistic? Maybe. Is she wrong? I don't honestly believe anyone on this website actually knows quite enough to say either way. I'm pretty damn sure that not many of you have actually been to Niger, are charter members of the UN, or are the President of a charity organization. My guess is that many of you got your information from books, the media, and the internet. And most of those books and internet sites were written by other people who have never been to Niger or been charter members of the UN, so on so forth. You're still entitled to your opinions, and you can post them all you damn well please, but why in the world do you get so angry about it? Do you guys just get off on yelling at each other?

So let's look at what we got here, just straight up facts. Is Niger in trouble? Yea, that's an understatement. Could other countries help? Most definitely. Does anyone actually know how to help? With my experiences with the government, I'm gonna say no. That's the problem with this particular situation. This one right here. Niger. I'm not talking about America'a problems, Europe's problems, or even China's problems. We could still help, that's just a fact. We could help. Why don't we? We don't know how. Maybe a few people do, but they don't care. We could try to make them care, but they probably still wouldn't. Those that do care don't know how. Money alone won't fix it. Food alone won't fix it. Taking out dictatorships won't fix it. All three put together might not fix it. We could still try, and maybe it would work. Maybe it wouldn't. I'm pretty sure that everyone can agree on at least one thing, it would be better if the problem was solved. But then we're not gonna solve this particular problem by yelling at each other on an online gaming forum..............

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But then we're not gonna solve this particular problem by yelling at each other on an online gaming forum..............

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Discussing is NEVER a bad thing - no matter where. Yelling is - so i do aggre with ya here.

I really hope your post was not directed towards me. I am going of what I know and if you want to say I know nothing, because those who taught me know nothing- go right ahead.

I have been to slums in mexico, and yes i am fed by the media. We do have a problem and it does need fixing. I hope I never said that any problem will fix itself entirely. I just posted what is to me and my "fake" knowlage a plyable answer :) Take it for what you will though

Bipper

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

oh and boo hoo the yanks pay alot of health insurance. diddums for them i'm crying my eyes out here for them. i really am. i'm really sorry for going on about africa folks if i realised that america had such huge problems as that i would have never brought this entire disaster up. you do have far more important things to be concerned with. drug prices are what i should be caring about.

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http://forums.eyesonff.com/showpost....66&postcount=9
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showpost....0&postcount=15
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showpost....8&postcount=17
*goes on*
:rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by bipper

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But then we're not gonna solve this particular problem by yelling at each other on an online gaming forum..............

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Discussing is NEVER a bad thing - no matter where. Yelling is - so i do aggre with ya here.

I really hope your post was not directed towards me. I am going of what I know and if you want to say I know nothing, because those who taught me know nothing- go right ahead.

I have been to slums in mexico, and yes i am fed by the media. We do have a problem and it does need fixing. I hope I never said that any problem will fix itself entirely. I just posted what is to me and my "fake" knowlage a plyable answer :) Take it for what you will though

Bipper

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Nah, man, it wasn't directed at you, it wasn't directed at anyone. I wasn't even trying to say that you guys know nothing or that it's fake knowledge. I'm just saying that none of us probably know as much of what's going on as the people who are truly involved (i.e. Nigerians, UN, African charity organizations) do. That's all.

No, I'm not going to give money to Africa. Sure, I guess that makes me selfish. I don't care about people who choose not to take care of themselves. If the people knew a year ago a famine was going to happen, then they could've done something(moved, stored up on food, etc.).

If individual people/charities want to help, sure, that's their choice. But I'm against governments or the UN doing it. The UN isn't there to put food on peoples' plates for them or to tuck them in at night. It is not the World Welfare Program.

It's indidivual peoples' money - they can do whatever the hell they want with it.

Let's keep this civil or I'll be passing out EoEO bans.

In any event, you can talk about helping Niger or any other country until you're blue in the face, but that won't change anything. As was stated earlier, it's one thing to throw money at a problem and hope that it somehow fixes itself (which is, in effect, what you are advocating), but it is another entirely to actually solve it. A government exists for one of two reasons. A mandate of the masses or a mandate of the guns. The former (more desirable) method is that the government operates under the will of the masses. The other is that the government exists because it controls all of the weapons and rules through violence.

It is asinine to expect that if America were to divert a great deal of its resources to Niger or any other country, that suddenly everything would be all right. What good is money and food if the government isn't working?

In any event, I could not say what (if anything) will save Africa. Do you truly believe that you can? You've already stated (with more vehemence than I shall allow in this thread if it persists) what you believe will work, but it has already been argued against quite effectively, giving me no reason to reiterate what has already been said. You want more action or "generosity", or you want those who aren't conforming to your standards to suffer. Is it not rather hypocritical to demand aid for some while wishing ill upon others?

I'd say you need to straighten out your priorities. There are ways to be involved (the effectiveness thereof is debateable), so why not take up whichever causes you feel to be correct? We believe what we believe, you believe what you believe, however, you have no right to insist upon our suffering if we do not do EXACTLY as you think. After all, is that not the concept of a dictatorship? Those who do not conform pay the price? Could you not just live for what you feel is right and allow us to live as we feel is right? Charity is all well and good, but do you really feel it is our responsibility to help someone with their own problems when they live a whole continent away? Some might say yes, others might say no, others still will keep quiet and do what it is they feel is correct. We've made our decision, you've made yours. Isn't that enough?

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Originally Posted by Behold the Void

Let's keep this civil or I'll be passing out EoEO bans

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Me first.

THERE IS NOTHING TO ARGUE ABOUT. AFRICA SUCKS.

Seriously, they're going nowhere, all of our help (I threw a half a stick of gum their way and they didn't do anything) isn't helping, and the rest of the world hates America because we're not doing anything.

Africans should get off their lazy ass and help themselves.

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Originally Posted by Hachifusa

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Originally Posted by Behold the Void

Let's keep this civil or I'll be passing out EoEO bans

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Me first.

THERE IS NOTHING TO ARGUE ABOUT. AFRICA SUCKS.

Seriously, they're going nowhere, all of our help (I threw a half a stick of gum their way and they didn't do anything) isn't helping, and the rest of the world hates America because we're not doing anything.

Africans should get off their lazy ass and help themselves.

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:up:


~Keep it gooey~

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Originally Posted by Hachifusa

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Originally Posted by Behold the Void

Let's keep this civil or I'll be passing out EoEO bans

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Me first.

THERE IS NOTHING TO ARGUE ABOUT. AFRICA SUCKS.

Seriously, they're going nowhere, all of our help (I threw a half a stick of gum their way and they didn't do anything) isn't helping, and the rest of the world hates America because we're not doing anything.

Africans should get off their lazy ass and help themselves.

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I hope your not serious. I am not at all claiming to be an expert on these things, but I think that if Africa could do that, it would have already

Wow, this thread is discusting...no not the topic, but rather some of the posts in it.

Behold the Void pretty much said what I would of said if he hadn't already said it (and then some). You can talk about the world's problems all day and it won't solve a damn thing. Also you can't expect world hunger to dissapear overnight...Africa has so much damage, I guess you could call it, that's developed from them lagging so far behind the rest of the world in terms of development. I really don't like to think about it...I know that's screwed up of me, but it's just depressing, especially when I turn on the TV and they announce that the new Harry Potter movie or whatever else made some odd hundreds of millions of dollars...we'll spend all that money to sit on our asses for a couple hours of screen staring that may or may not be entertaining, but we won't put that money into things like Africa...sad, it is. But then, I'm doing the same thing, so who am I to bitch at the rest of the world and how cruel and careless they are? Nobody.

Life is sad, and I see little to no hope for fixing Africa's horrors...I think disease and starvation are going to wipe them out really...it sucks, and I know it sounds really pessimistic of me, but I also don't agree with "oh well it can't be helped so who gives a crap lets ignore it". Africa needs to work to help themselves, yes, but I think that's exactly where they need help the most: to start helping themselves.

The only way for them to start helping themselves is 2 things.

1) They need to change their social way of thinking. That is probably one of the hardest things to do. Sure it has been done in other countries but it was more or less through mutual economic gain and a willingness to want to work with each other. Africa has to offer everyone else and is ignorant as hell.

2) Attempt to educate them so they are not ignorant as hell. Once again very hard to do given how their society works.

Of course I agree with TK as it has been basically what I have been saying all along. I am willing to offer them help but first the leaders of those countries need to want to help their country out by acting on education first and their social problems first. But the leaders don't care and anyone who has taken power to become the leader doesn't care.

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Originally Posted by Dazed and Confused

I hope your not serious. I am not at all claiming to be an expert on these things, but I think that if Africa could do that, it would have already

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Why, I'm perfectly serious. Africans have not done anything themselves, basically. We've tried to help, but it's failed. It will get just exactly what it deserves.

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it's their fault they will starve tonight.

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Indeed it is. Food reserves are such a nice thing.

I'll tell you this - even if aliens suddenly killed 10 million Americans, destroyed all the fields and meat-farms, and took away everyone's money - America would still recover within a relatively short period of time. Why? Because they want to recover. They want to lead on better lives, to look for something in the future. This is true not only for Americans, but many others... many, that aren't struck by a severe case of apathy. Africa's situation is so dire, that they no longer care whether they die or not. They don't care whether they eat or not. Otherwise, they would've taken immediate acts to improve their situation... and, really, the agricultural rising of human-kind happened some 8,000-10,000 years ago. It's not high-tech to grow some food... and now-a-days, it's not really high-tech to grow food for millions. India keeps its citizens moslty fed, and so does China. Both have way more people than all of Africa's countries put together.

Africa doesn't need more aid. It needs to get off its apathetical arse, take the good money sent to it by the good nations of the world (Nations which also include America, which you speak such ill of), and use some common sense and knowledge in agriculture, and put all those into some good use.

It's like having a depressed kid sitting in the corner, not wanting to eat. You give him money, and tell him to go buy food. He doesn't want to, and burns the money with his lighter. Would throwing more money at him make any difference? He needs to get off his sorry ass and start doing it for himself. Same goes for Africa.

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Originally Posted by War Angel

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it's their fault they will starve tonight.

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Indeed it is. Food reserves are such a nice thing.

I'll tell you this - even if aliens suddenly killed 10 million Americans, destroyed all the fields and meat-farms, and took away everyone's money - America would still recover within a relatively short period of time. Why? Because they want to recover. They want to lead on better lives, to look for something in the future. This is true not only for Americans, but many others... many, that aren't struck by a severe case of apathy. Africa's situation is so dire, that they no longer care whether they die or not. They don't care whether they eat or not. Otherwise, they would've taken immediate acts to improve their situation... and, really, the agricultural rising of human-kind happened some 8,000-10,000 years ago. It's not high-tech to grow some food... and now-a-days, it's not really high-tech to grow food for millions. India keeps its citizens moslty fed, and so does China. Both have way more people than all of Africa's countries put together.

Africa doesn't need more aid. It needs to get off its apathetical arse, take the good money sent to it by the good nations of the world (Nations which also include America, which you speak such ill of), and use some common sense and knowledge in agriculture, and put all those into some good use.

It's like having a depressed kid sitting in the corner, not wanting to eat. You give him money, and tell him to go buy food. He doesn't want to, and burns the money with his lighter. Would throwing more money at him make any difference? He needs to get off his sorry ass and start doing it for himself. Same goes for Africa.

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You couldn't have put it any better.

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You couldn't have put it any better.

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Don't like like that! There's always place for improvement - we should always strive for more!

Next thing you'll know, you'll starve! :P

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and yes the great depression. what america did there...... withdrew german loans. so the people starved and looked for a strong leader. go america! look out for yourself screw the repurcusions! and america topok out massive massive loans during the depression. and some war or other sorted out the economy.


Please tell me you just made that up. If you learnt it from a teacher, I'd like to know who it is so that I can take action to get them fired, and if you learnt it from a textbook I would like to have it removed from the curriculum."

no didn't make that up. the withdrawl of german loans by america during the great depression made the depression far worse. thus people got all miserable about this and decided what they needed was a strong leader to fix out all this bad stuff happening to them. the same thing had happened during the hyperinflation. look at the votes for the nazis during these periods and the periods in between. it goes up, down, up, nazis take over.

the individual has done nothing to cause this. the everyday african farmer doesn't deserve this. in fact the countries don't really deserve it as they are mostly made up of everyday african people. it's not their fault it is their government and can we justify letting people suffer for their government?

and in defence of my comment. it was to a man who had just said he didn't care if 3 million people starved to death.

I don't care if 3 million people who don't do anything about their situation starve to death. You didn't pay attention to me as you only see your side.

EDIT: OOOOOOH MAN! I had not even read your mispreception of the Great Depression. Did American withdraw loans from ALL europian countries? Yes. Why? 11,000 out of 25,000 banks closed and went out of buisness. Time worry about #1.

What countries were affect the most? Britian and Germany who owed the most. It didn't really mess Britian up that much but only made Germany far worse.

Why was Germany in so bad of a situation? Europe was forcing them to pay for everything from the war.

So I see how it works. Europe demands germany pay for everything and American banks allow them to take out loans to pay the insane demand and when America all of a sudden can't deal with the crap Europe started due to their own problems they are to blame once again?

You are just messed up with your hate towards America.

so tell me what the starving children of niger should do today?

milf you say you wouldn't believe you deserve food. we do. it's in human rights. we all deserve the right to life. no food = no life. it is something deserved by being human.

"The sad thing is this, Cloud No. 9 was just expressing concern for Niger. Is she idealistic? Maybe. Is she wrong?" a small point that i am actually male.

my comments about the aids vaccine thingy before were actually a great deal about africa.

i don't think it is for others to make decisions that harm others. or rather to not make any decision and sit back as the biggest genocide takes place. it was not our choice to let the nazis destroy the jewish race. it should not be out choice to let the african continent be destroyed in the same way.

"It will get just exactly what it deserves." i'm sorry but i will probably get banned for this. but meh. it needs to be said before anyone snips it. hachifusa you are a sad, sad, greedy man. 30,000 children deserve to die a day? 3 million people in niger deserve to be starving right now? did the jews deserve to? they never helped themsleves so slaughtering them was cool was it? no need to help the jews they aren't doing it themselves. exactly what it deserves? maybe that sentence will come back to haunt you, maybe you or your country will get exactly what is wished upon it.

"They don't care whether they eat or not." i think you'll find if you handed a kid in niger food today then he would be quite grateful of it. hand it to a mother in sudan and she will care.

Mr. MILF didn't say they didn't deserve food, you're twisting his words. He said that they need to help themselves first, as if you send them food, do you really think it'd go to the kids?

actually he did "I said I wouldn't believe I deserved help."

and if he actually were on the ground helping these people then we could gurantee that the food went to the kids. instead of just performing a bank transfer to the nearest government.

We can't take the people off their Governments hand's and expect things to get better. That's asinine. Deal with the corrupt Government first, then help out the people.

Although, I have to admit to being completely apathetic when it comes to other countries. Not to say they don't matter, just saying that it's the American way to have absolutely NO concern about what goes on overseas. Or, maybe I should say it was the American way.

Why don't you go to the ground and help these people by handing out food?

well i give 10% of my wages to charity and will take a year out and do. i have that planned.

DAMN IT! I mean...hey, good for you :shifty:

sorry to disappoint on not being a hypocrite.

I win either way so I am not disappointed.

Sernario 1: You are a hypocrite
Sernario 2: I don't have to listen about how we don't do stuff for Africa when you leave

It is a win-win situation for this guy right here.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

a small point that i am actually male.

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Oh.....

Um, sorry about that, so yea, just replace all the shes with hes.

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actually he did "I said I wouldn't believe I deserved help."

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And you've misconstrued his meaning once again. He was quite clear on what he meant, if he were in the situation that the Africans are in, he would not believe that he deserved help from outside influences. He said he might hope for it, but he wouldn't think he deserved it. Nowhere did he say that they do not deserve it.

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so tell me what the starving children of niger should do today?

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They will die, and continue to die untill either them, their parents of their leaders, and indeed all of them together, decide starving isn't cool, and start doing something about it. Untill then - they will continue to perish by the dozens of thousands, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

i dom't think right now they think that starving is cool.

void i'm confused here. they do deserve it. but they shouldn't think they do?

lets put it this way. you see a dog tied to a tree in a wood, abondoned. it doesn't deserve to be there. it has every right not to be in that state. but it's not your job to help that dog. but you are the person that is there at the time that can do something. it's just morals to un-tie the dog and take it the vets. now it's not your job. but in a way you are expected to help the animal. you wouldn't pop into the pub and say "yeah i saw a dog that's tied to a tree and it was gonna die" "what did you do?" "i left it there it's not my job to go round saving dogs."

I understand the analogy, but that is a gross generalization. It's a unique situation in Africa. It can't be solved as easily or as completely as taking a dog to a vet. I know you weren't be literal, but it's still not a very good example. The situation you just used can be easily fixed, and anyone could fix it. The problem in Niger is much more complex, and you also have to add in the fact that people have been trying to help over a long period of time. From what little I actually do know about the situation, I know that people are trying to help, maybe not everyone, but a lot of people.

And as far as the whole 'deserving help' thing is concerned. No one 'deserves' help, that would go against the definition of 'help.' When you 'help' someone, you do it because you want to, not because someone 'deserves' it. I'm glad you want to help. I'm glad that you're apparently trying to help. I wish there were more people that wanted to help.

However, situations like this create a lot of frustration and eventually hostility. I'm sure that at one point or another in their lives, everyone wishes they could save the world. The problem is that sometimes the world doesn't want to be saved, and although we still try, it only gets harder and harder. Some people decide that instead of uselessly trying to help those that can't be helped, they try to help others closer to home. That's not a bad thing. For example, I know that by joining Habitat for Humanity I can help someone right here close to home. I don't know that by donating 10% of my paycheck (which is only $100 a month right now) I can help someone in Africa. That doesn't mean I'm saying 'screw Africa', it just means I don't think I can right now.

my point with the dog was people unwilling to do something. and like saving that dog it is a moral duty.

help for these people is life. and everyone deserves life. there is no two ways about it. right now without food these people will die. without continued help these people will die. remove the help and you kill these people. refuse to help and refuse them life. leave the dog on the tree and walk by or perform a moral duty to at least say you have done something. the dog may end up dying. but you have played your part.

i think the oil from the deep sea oil fields shoudn't go to Niger but to places that need it giving oil to africa is like giving a 2 year old kid some batteries they don't know what to do with em. the BONGA FPSO project by SNEPCO imo seemed useless if the oils going to africa whats the benefit? Africa should use the Aid to kickstart a better lifestyle

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my point with the dog was people unwilling to do something. and like saving that dog it is a moral duty.

help for these people is life. and everyone deserves life. there is no two ways about it. right now without food these people will die. without continued help these people will die. remove the help and you kill these people. refuse to help and refuse them life. leave the dog on the tree and walk by or perform a moral duty to at least say you have done something. the dog may end up dying. but you have played your part.

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But you speak as if there is a clear cut way TOO help, which there isn't. We can't just throw money at them, nor are we obligated. Is charity a moral obligation? I hardly think so. You don't have to be charitable to be a moral person, and while I do believe it a good thing to do, I feel it rather judgemental to call someone immoral because they do not. I choose not to donate to the African cause because I don't trust the people to use my money appropriately. Also, I have no intention of ever going to Africa to work there because I have a life of my own, and I believe that I have the right to take care of my own interests. To put it bluntly, when did the rest of the world become MY problem?

"To put it bluntly, when did the rest of the world become MY problem?" because you are part of this world. this has always been your problem. you are the rest of the world.

charity may not be a moral obligation but ending the suffering of millions is. it is immoral to stand back and do nothing. give to an organisation that works directly. charities that do the work themselves like making wells and stuff. and if you don't do charity what else is there? can we really stand back and watch this happen and shrug our shoulders as the world did in october?

should the good men do nothing?

charities should give and tell them how to use it and make it not just give give and give

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

should the good men do nothing?

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In short: yes.

Cloud, we (those who agree with me) aren't moving, and neither are you. You've taken this subject and beaten over and over again. We, the people, choose not to help Africa. None of my money will ever go to fuel a corrupt government. I've asked you how the individual can help, and you have said that there is no way, but we must find a way somehow. You're losing your own argument. You either have no concept of the way the system works or you go above and beyond optimism to the point of lunacy regarding their situation.

I am hardly greedy, not selfish in the sense that you mean it, and would help out quite a bit. You fail to recognize that, and rest on the self-rigtheous supremacy that the people who produce - the strong - the able - the hated (i.e. America and any other free country) should sacrifice itself to a continent that has no way of rising above it.

It's the most pointless argument ever, and I hope that the people that support you don't realize the full extent of what they are supporting; I hope they are just idealistic-beyond-practicality.

Edit: You won't get banned, and if you do I will petition like hell to get you unbanned. You have weak-ass argumetns and tend to resort to name calling, but it's done in a classical flair that's hardly too insulting (for example, rather than calling me a dick, you call me a greedy capitalist, et cetera). So don't worry about it.

Sure, they could use help from outside. But they don't need it. They need to help themselves. And they sure as hell are not ENTITLED to any outside help.

And your theories on the Great Depression ignore one huge flaw: we LOST OUR ENTIRE ECONOMY, because of your damn socialist economic systems. We were forced to withdraw our loans from Europe because the loans meant NOTHING because the money was completely imaginary! People were rich in 1929 - on paper. The money was nonexistant.

You speak as if you assume I do nothing to aid others. That is quite false. However, I feel I have the right to choose who and what I am going to help. I give so much of myself, both mentally, emotionally, physically, and monetarily, that it's a wonder I'm not insane right now. I don't feel I owe the world any more of my lifeblood, I've given it enough and I will continue to give it more, on my terms. I refuse to jump on the next bandwagon cause and give money directly to organizations that will do nothing but embezzle the riches.

The implication of your "good men" statement is that I am not good because I am declining to do... what is it you want me to do? You've not really given me a specific cause besides "we need to help Niger". I take exception to being preached to about my "responsibility" when nobody has even defined what my "responsibility" to a people who, while they need help, yes, are utterly unwilling to take steps to rectify their own problems. Frankly, I feel no strong compulsion to lend aid to people who are propogating a system of self-destruction, especially when any "aid" I might give will aid that self-same system that is causing all the problems. Really, I'd say come back when they seem willing to do something for themselves. THEN maybe I will help out.

Wow. An EotW thread in which I agree with a vast majority of the writers? This has to be a first.

Cloud, you're being extremely judgemental of others by calling them immoral and greedy just because they don't see things the way you do. Furthermore, you fail to see the reality of the situation in Africa. People are starving because the corrupt governments are withholding food from their people in order to keep them under control. You could continue to throw money at them until every country in the world hasn't a single penny, and it would only further line the pockets of African despots.

The whole sordid affair can be summed up by one simple saying: "Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will eat for the rest of his life."

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Originally Posted by DocFrance

The whole sordid affair can be summed up by one simple saying: "Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will eat for the rest of his life."

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Whoa, I was thinking of that quote reading this thread. That's true. You can throw money Africa, but it won't do anything unless you teach them to use the money in a beneficial way.

you can do little things to help as well as donating to charity. buying fair trade goods. avoiding american and european goos where possible. and don't worry about not supporting western farmers. they are all subsidised and so are guranteed a minimum price for the goods anyway.

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help for these people is life. and everyone deserves life.

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Huh? That's like saying 'everyone deserves to be born'. These people were given birth to. Now, it's up to their parents, society and goverment to take care of them - not me. I'd help however I can, but it's still not my responsibility. Saying "Hi, please support me for the rest of my life along with millions of my kind for the rest of their lives, their children's lives, and their children's children's lives..." is really asking for too much. I do not and will not support parasites. I will be the first to help, if I spot a change in [b]mentality[b], that is, if they start the change in their life-styles themselves. Then, I'll give them money, spiritual aid, and whatever else they might need. But I will not do everything for them, and most CERTAINLY not give money in vain for their currupt leaders to take it and use it to conduct genocides.

"it's up to their parents, society and goverment" like it's up to the dog owner to take responsibilty of their dog. but walking away from it when it is tied to a tree is wrong.

and for the last time you can avoid giving money to dictators by giving to the right aid charities. and fair trade gives money straight to the farmers. and removing tarrifs and subsidies would give money right to the farmers. so yeah lots and lots of stuff to do.

i personally refuse to buy western goods and fair trade whenever possible. and i feel good about it. it hurts noone. it helps the poor folk. and so everyone is happy even the western farmers who get the subsidies if i buy the food or not.

You keep using this "dog tied to a tree" analogy. So say you go to untie the dog, and all it does is bite at you whenever you come near it. To make matters worse, when you finally do untie it, and you're bleeding all over, the dog does nothing but sit there as if it was still tied up. What do you do then? Is the dog still your responsibility? Are you "immoral" for walking away from it? I would hope not.

Of course, you're probably just going to ignore or misinterpret this post in order to fit your narrow beliefs.

also the AIDS thing can be blamed on Catholicism catholics don't allow condoms

my beliefs are narrow because i believe in helping these people? then so be it. if having humanity left in me which forces me to act when i see millions upon millions of peple suffering then i have narrow beliefs. the rest of the apathetic world are perfectly open minded but let the suffering continue. oh such a crime i commit.

but the dog is still tied to a tree. the tarriffs and debt is still there. the people are still starving not from outside controlled factors but because of simple things like drought, plague, famine etc. in times of un-preventable disaster like this why do we not help? the dog is still tied to the tree right now but for god sake feed him while he is there.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

my beliefs are narrow because i believe in helping these people? then so be it.

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Um, no, your beliefs are narrow because you are doing more harm than good and then claim that you are helping humanity.

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if having humanity left in me which forces me to act when i see millions upon millions of peple suffering then i have narrow beliefs.

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I would call your ideals quite inhumane.

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the rest of the apathetic world are perfectly open minded but let the suffering continue. oh such a crime i commit.

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I am not apathetic, and I have an active mind, if not open to the first whims of a dictator (or a westerner who is mystical in his beliefs at best).

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but the dog is still tied to a tree. the tarriffs and debt is still there. the people are still starving not from outside controlled factors but because of simple things like drought, plague, famine etc. in times of un-preventable disaster like this why do we not help?

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Because there is nothing we can do short of war. Would you like America to step in and fight Africa, or will that be a greedy act of horrible selfish indulgence like it always is?

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the dog is still tied to the tree right now but for god sake feed him while he is there.

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And prolong its misery. No thanks. I am not that apathetic.

The right charities? How will that help? As has been said countless times, you can throw money at a problem as long as you want, it's NOT going to go away.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

"it's up to their parents, society and goverment" like it's up to the dog owner to take responsibilty of their dog. but walking away from it when it is tied to a tree is wrong.

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But that's how you treat humans - as dogs that you must keep chained to make sure the stronger and faster don't eat more food than the rest.

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and for the last time you can avoid giving money to dictators by giving to the right aid charities. and fair trade gives money straight to the farmers. and removing tarrifs and subsidies would give money right to the farmers. so yeah lots and lots of stuff to do.

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I actually agree with this - but for different reasons. We should get rid of tariffs and subsidies completely - not because that would help anyone, but because any barriers to free trade is wrong.

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my beliefs are narrow because i believe in helping these people? then so be it. if having humanity left in me which forces me to act when i see millions upon millions of peple suffering then i have narrow beliefs. the rest of the apathetic world are perfectly open minded but let the suffering continue. oh such a crime i commit.

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It's not what you decide to do with your own life - it's your willingness to sacrifice other peoples' lives.

my ideals are inhuman and do more harm than good? how?

actually we can drop the trade tarrifs. a lovely peaceful method to help.

"And prolong its misery." oh that's nice that is. just let them starve so they don't suffer. or why don't we just nuke it?

the right charities aid directly. provide schools and education so these people can learn. provide wells and clean water for these peple to avoid cholera. provide the right tools and information so these people can farm properly and sustain themselves.

"But that's how you treat humans - as dogs that you must keep chained to make sure the stronger and faster don't eat more food than the rest." so would you agree with killing the runt of the litter?

"It's not what you decide to do with your own life - it's your willingness to sacrifice other peoples' lives." who's live does helping these countries sacrifice. even my refusal to by american and european goods hurts noone.

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Originally Posted by Hachifusa

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

should the good men do nothing?

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In short: yes.

Cloud, we (those who agree with me) aren't moving, and neither are you. You've taken this subject and beaten over and over again. We, the people, choose not to help Africa. None of my money will ever go to fuel a corrupt government. I've asked you how the individual can help, and you have said that there is no way, but we must find a way somehow. You're losing your own argument. You either have no concept of the way the system works or you go above and beyond optimism to the point of lunacy regarding their situation.

I am hardly greedy, not selfish in the sense that you mean it, and would help out quite a bit. You fail to recognize that, and rest on the self-rigtheous supremacy that the people who produce - the strong - the able - the hated (i.e. America and any other free country) should sacrifice itself to a continent that has no way of rising above it.

It's the most pointless argument ever, and I hope that the people that support you don't realize the full extent of what they are supporting; I hope they are just idealistic-beyond-practicality.

Edit: You won't get banned, and if you do I will petition like hell to get you unbanned. You have weak-ass argumetns and tend to resort to name calling, but it's done in a classical flair that's hardly too insulting (for example, rather than calling me a dick, you call me a greedy capitalist, et cetera). So don't worry about it.

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Finally someone said it I always wanted to say this.

There are small organizations who go out of there way to help people in countries like Niger,but the demand is just so great that these organizations are overwhlemed by the number of people needing help and their limited resources to help these people with.

so why then stand back and not provide the resources and money these organisations need to be able to cope so they can help the people that need it?

Because a government has to take care of its own and really has very little to spare to these small organizations.Most of these small organizations depend upon donations.

The problem with donating is that a lot of them are scams thus people start to distrust them thus organizations who do good get ignored.

Thus this world is crap blah blah blah you know the whole drill.

it was more of a question to the people reading this thread and not to the governments who has the g8 meeting and the niger crisis couldn't care less no matter how many millions of people tell them they do.

Because its all about money and if your country ain't making any from helpingout another country.Then they won't do it.

with all due respect, and i am fully supporting countires helping less off ones, our governments are elected to do what is best for their country not someone elses. I know it sounds a bit cold but it is true.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

my ideals are inhuman and do more harm than good? how?

actually we can drop the trade tarrifs. a lovely peaceful method to help.

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Yeah, and most of us are with you on that aspect, even if it's because we believe trade tarriffs, subsidies, etc. are inherently wrong.

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"But that's how you treat humans - as dogs that you must keep chained to make sure the stronger and faster don't eat more food than the rest." so would you agree with killing the runt of the litter?

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The runt still gets his chance. Where have we said otherwise? But nobody else has any obligation to help the runt.

"But that's how you treat humans - as dogs that you must keep chained to make sure the stronger and faster don't eat more food than the rest."

do we know what that theory is called? it's called the surviva l of the fittest and a little bit of eugenics. and i'm not a big fan of either of them. and we are we to allow these people to die because their countries economy is behind ours? they starve because they're country doesn't have more economic power? is that it? the people of these countries are gonna die because they are the runt of the litter?

Your only just saying that now. Its been happening for millions of years. The only reason your alive is because one of your ancestors tripped some fat guy when he was being chased by something big and dangerous. Its called nature.

the rest of us call it genocide and ethnic cleansing. the nazis had a nasty habit of calling the holocaust survival of the fittest.

and is this what it is? we let africans die for what? it's not for food resources for sure. there is enough in this world to not let millions starve and say it's for our own benefit.

I am not heartless, nor am I without sympathy for people who are suffering. But as far as helping other countries before helping to fix the problems of your own country to me is unproductive. I would love to be able to help those people in Niger, with every fiber of my being, but many people here do make a point. Wanting to is not enough. Throwing money into different charites, although it helps the immediate problem, will not solve the problem. Say I go ahead and give money to a charity, and the charity goes and provides aid to those living there now. Wonderful that the people there are getting the help, but what about future generations who are going to have the same exact problems, what with plagues and lack of water and the like. Are the more well off countries going to continue to provide aid, as noble as it is, to future generations? Because if that is the case, the way the world is turning right now, all sources of aid will diminish slowly but steadily and surely. Then what becomes of "the rest of the world." Eventually all the nations of the world are going to have to come together, but something like that is certainly not going to happen in my lifetime, or my children's lifetime, or even their children's lifetime. My point in all this is yes, help those who need it, but don't over simplify the magnitude of the problem. If you are in front of me, and you were hungry, I would give you food, but I would also teach you how to prepare your own food, so you wont be hungry tomorrow. Otherwise, what would be the point of my giving you food today, walk away, feel good about it, but you'd be just as hungry tomorrow. That would personally make me sick, so I'd come back and give you more food, and the next day and the next, but eventually I would be without as well... I don't know if I'm expressing my point properly.... In any case, I would much prefer helping, aiding and teaching those in my own community and country before I went abroad. There are starving people in YOUR country too, Cloud, just like there are in mine, and the USA, and South America, and everywhere you look, there are people in need. We have to take responsibility for our own before we are strong enough to help others, in my humble opinion. But I do agree with you that it is a heartbreaking reality, and apathy is very hard to look upon, especially if you have a big heart. But a big heart is not enough.

there are two types of aid. there is short term aid which right now is whatis required in niger at this very instance. that is the food and water aid. the aid that prevents people from dying tomorrow.

there is longer term aid. aid that is there for the ling term. like hospitals, schools, water supplies, sanitation, farming tools etc. things that will last generations and help people for along time after we have stopped paying for it.

we need to support both types of aid. and as the long term aid becomes more wide spread then the shorter term aid will no longer be required. yes we cannot continue to pay for food all day everyday. we must also pay for the long term stuff and then we can think about letting these people try and stand on their own two feet.

Short-term aid can't exist without long-term aid, unless you plan to rip it from everyone else's hands (which you do). Long-term aid goes far beyond building a hospital. It's establishing a government that recognizes individual rights and allows the African people to help themselves, which is the greatest gift that they can obtain (which also falls along a person's nature).

They cannot exist on hand-outs long, either from our government or theirs. They need to support themselves; once a government is established and people are able to support themselves, if Africa is still doing poorly, I'd be morally against helping them.

long term aid would actually result in the creation of a democracy anyway. you would cut off the links between the government and people. and if the government isn't ruling anyone then they ain't a government. if someone else is building your schools, wells, hospitals, helping you grow stuff then what is the government there for? why not set up one that does stuff for you? i can't remember what country it was but that happened there. the people just set up their own government and the "ruling government" fell apart.

"once a government is established and people are able to support themselves, if Africa is still doing poorly, I'd be morally against helping them." so hachifusa what in the mean time?

No, it wouldn't. You can build all the schools and hospitals you want, but if the despots still hold the guns, they're still in charge. Unless you want us to go in there and militarily take control, there will be no changes in the government. Period.

so what to do then? it's inhuman and unthinkable to let these people starve, i personally would have no objection to removing the governments of many of these countries but most people would seem to, the people in their current state would be un-able to revolt or make a difference.

so what is left? just to support them through long and short term aid until the people can stand on their own two feet?

You should invade them like Bush invaded Iraq. That'll change things for the better.

maybe not in the same way he manipulated stuff for iraq. but a straigh up "mugabwe sucks so much ass he needsa good hiding" and that would be fine.

It'd be a lot easier just to assassinate him rather than expend huge amounts of military manpower.The problem would be in installing a force before the country slid into total anarchy.

back to niger.

people say the money doesn't go where the want?

what about the tsunami appeal? that was raised by the dec. the same is being done with niger. it's not like we haven't trusted them before. and the lived up to that with what they have done over there. people just seem not to care about africa anymore. and that's just sad.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

back to niger.

people say the money doesn't go where the want?

what about the tsunami appeal? that was raised by the dec. the same is being done with niger. it's not like we haven't trusted them before. and the lived up to that with what they have done over there. people just seem not to care about africa anymore. and that's just sad.

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There are two huge differences between Africa and the region affected by the tsunami.
1) The tsunami was a massive, sudden natural disaster, whereas Africa is in a continuous state of decay. When so many lives are lost and so much property is destroyed, it's almost common sense that people are going to want to rebuild immediately. That's why a short-term monetary solution was effective.
2) The countries that were hit by the tsunami were, for the most part, not governed by corrupt despots.

Going right back to the start:

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

niger is in a pretty poor state right now. 3 million people are starving. a third of it's poplation. and why? a locut plague then a drought. so they have a famine right now? is this new news? no. the un were told in october it was going to happen. but noone bothered. ignored it. so 3 weeks after the g8. billions of people watched live 8. a quarter of a million people marched in edinburgh. when we were promised we could make a difference. things could change. they would change. we would end starvation and poverty, 3 weeks after that yet again we watch africans starve on our tv.

why?

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Don't you remember several of us here were saying exactly that the G8 would be inneffective and their methods, aside from opening trade, are flawed?

i think that the g8 basicly failed in it's human duty.

docfrance the question was about charity. when it's asia the charities are good. but in africa they are bad. but they are the same charities.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

docfrance the question was about charity. when it's asia the charities are good. but in africa they are bad. but they are the same charities.

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Yes, and that's because of the reasons I listed. Go back and read my post again.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

i think that the g8 basicly failed in it's human duty.

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Sorry, I was tired, I meant to say 'G8 and Live8'.

but they didn't open trade.

and this crisis emerged before this. it was in october. when the world was warned that millions could starve to death. and they were ignored.

and also as a repercusion of this a military dictatorship has been set up in maritinia (i spelt it wrong i know).

people said these folks should do something about the starvation. oh look they have. a lovely little dictatorship which like 99% of all military dictatorships will end in genocide. what a great idea ignoring the third world is.

a hand to help pull someone back to their feet is definatly in order, but you can't pull someone back up unless they use their feet to stand. the problem sometimes is the fact that these people don't know any other way of life than the one they are living. sometimes its not our fault that a country ends up the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

but they didn't open trade.

and this crisis emerged before this. it was in october. when the world was warned that millions could starve to death. and they were ignored.

and also as a repercusion of this a military dictatorship has been set up in maritinia (i spelt it wrong i know).

people said these folks should do something about the starvation. oh look they have. a lovely little dictatorship which like 99% of all military dictatorships will end in genocide. what a great idea ignoring the third world is.

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That would be up to the people of Mauritania to worry about who is in charge of them. Unless, of course, you support the war in Iraq.

"sometimes its not our fault that a country ends up the way it is." when a country comes to the un and begs for support when a famine is starting it is our fault for ignoring that plea.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

"sometimes its not our fault that a country ends up the way it is." when a country comes to the un and begs for support when a famine is starting it is our fault for ignoring that plea.

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Our stature is not at the mercy of their needs.

your stature? helping niger through a famine would not have affected america.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

your stature? helping niger through a famine would not have affected america.

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Please let me remind you that by "our" I meant western civilization in general, not just America.

And technically, it wouldn't, unless you support widescale looting.

eh? i'm conffuzled by that statement.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

eh? i'm conffuzled by that statement.

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Private charities (i.e. the people) can help niger, if only temporarily, through food drives and practical measures such as that. To try to rip away money from people in the name of other people isn't cool. That's called stealing.

Earlier, I said that our stature (that of the entire western cvilization) is not based on Niger's need. It does not become our responsibility the moment they ask for help. What will we do when they come and ask for one-third of our property? Or half of our money? Or half of our lives? Need isn't a claim on life.

your government actually has a reserve for times like these. and our stature should be based on all people's needs. we cannot ignore niger. to watch people die should not be a choice left up to individual morals. these people have nothing while we have so much. they are not asking for a third of your property. they are asking for enough food to survive. the grand cost of this? a mere 22 million dollars. it may seem alot but it's not. it's pennies in the scheme of western economy.

the money which they are asking for is not life or death for us. it is for them. it is not a claim. it is a requirement. a requirement that we have the power to meet. just not the morals.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

it is not a claim. it is a requirement.

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This is the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

your government actually has a reserve for times like these. and our stature should be based on all people's needs. we cannot ignore niger. to watch people die should not be a choice left up to individual morals.

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1) And the US', UK's, France's, Japan's food stocks are for... oh, hey, lookit that. The US, UK, France, and Japan respectively.

2) Yes it should.

no these countries have reserves for not feeding their already overweight population but to aid other countries in times of disaster.

is this it? the argument? "it's mine and i don't care about anyone else"? i'm sorry but that's pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

no these countries have reserves for not feeding their already overweight population but to aid other countries in times of disaster.

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OH NOES!!!1 NOT PROSPERITY! :eek: :cry: Seriously, the food stocks are there in case something happens which stops those countries from bring able to produce sufficient quantities. Exactly what logic thinks these stocks are to be given to other groups - which would directly counter their entire point, because then there wouldn't BE any stocks in case of disaster.

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is this it? the argument? "it's mine and i don't care about anyone else"? i'm sorry but that's pathetic.

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Nope, the argument is that "It's mine and therefore my choice to care about anyone else.". "It's mine, here you go government, do whatever the hell you like whether I agree with your beliefs and methods or not." is what we call 'tyranny'.

the food stocks aren't for chairty. a secrion of tax money is. it goes into a lovely little reserve fo helping things like the asian tsunami and should have been used in october for niger.

does prosperiety = the fattest country in the world? if so bring on the mediocre economy without the chance of dying at 40 from a heart attack.

"It's mine and therefore my choice to care about anyone else." it was not our choice to care about the jews in germany. it is not our choice to care about africa. humanity is not an option.

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

the food stocks aren't for chairty. a secrion of tax money is. it goes into a lovely little reserve fo helping things like the asian tsunami and should have been used in october for niger.

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The food stocks in England ARE IN CASE DISASTER STRIKES ENGLAND. I doubt I shall ever feel clean for having to use caps, but I don't think it has a chance to get through otherwise. I'd rather have a one in a million shot than none at all.

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does prosperiety = the fattest country in the world? if so bring on the mediocre economy without the chance of dying at 40 from a heart attack.

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At least eight nations in Europe have higher obesity rates than the US, which is what I assume you were referring to. And wishing mediocrity on sixty million people because you like railing against the US is the most disgusting abomination I have come across in as long as I can remember.

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"It's mine and therefore my choice to care about anyone else." it was not our choice to care about the jews in germany. it is not our choice to care about africa. humanity is not an option.

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Yeah, it was our choice. We could have let the Jews die. Hell, we did. We entered the war to defend the places in Europe which Hitler's armies were invading, not to help the Jews, we didn't even know about much of that until much, much later on.

My stance on African countries is that we should stay out of their government system. Eventually if it doesnt work out it will collapse in time. Theres no need to enforce anything and bother them, let them do things they need to do themselves when they can. I feel that the Western mentality of having to meddle in Africa, are too nosey in that sense.

That and i agree with MILF, there is no obligation for any country to help anyone, especially when it doesnt benefit themself. So should any Western country want to keep their foods supplies for themselves, damn straight they could if they want to keep their own stuff. I have a PS2, and the next door neighbor guy doesnt, does that mean i have to give mine away now? Makes no sense IMO.

On an offtopic note i do not feel America has made good trade progress even, at least with China because they view them as a threat, they turned their heads on any deals China offered and if they persist they are going to look at other countries for trade deals. So the case that they handled the situation i dont feel their trade progress is really good, its better, but i cant say its really good.

Alex de Waal, president of the human rights group, Africa Rights, concludes that foreign aid is "structurally bad because it undermines the incentive to take responsibility. The more aid a country receives, the less the government of that country has to answer to the people."

aid must come in two forms. short term disaster aid like the kind we gave in asia after boxing day and the kind we gave to ethiopia and the kind we should give to niger. people shouldn't live on this.

thre is long term aid which is schools and hospitals and wells and farming equipment to get things up and running.

but with all this must come one thing. reform. not their reform. ours. debt, subisidies and tarriffs if these are left in place even without disaster and famine these places don't stand a chance as long as we continue to destroy their farms, businesses and economy.

"The food stocks in England ARE IN CASE DISASTER STRIKES ENGLAND." this is because i was refering not to food stocks but to the aid allowances which come in the form of money not food which is then converted into food or whatever is needed. it;'s what we donated to asia. and it comes out of 0.7% of the country's income.

find me any country with higher levels of obesity than america. i think you will find you are wrong.

and my point about medicority was in reply to "no these countries have reserves for not feeding their already overweight population but to aid other countries in times of disaster.


OH NOES!!!1 NOT PROSPERITY!" which seemed to me to link prosperiety with the growing waist lines of western countries.

milf you forget that we are obliged to end genocide when it occours. starvation was genocide in warsaw. it is genocide in africa. the difference is is that we are causing it.

lionx we are not talking about surrendering possesions we are talking about saving millions from starvation. something which our governments have money set aside for. money which even if it went over that we have plenty of. it would not bother us to save these people. it is our human duty to help these people. it is no mans right to watch another starve to death. failure to help is co-operation in death and suffering.