Convicted sex offender legally buys house next to daycare

Whelp one last post before my leave. I just wanted some thoughts on this. It is happening nearby where I live, and in the town where I work one of my jobs.

The whole story can be found here:http://www.kare11.com/news/news_arti...storyid=104136

Basically a convivted child molester (and repeat offender - although the repeat offence is flashing a college girl. (Flashing could entail mooning)) is moving within a few blocks from a primary school, and right next door to a daycare. His sentance says that he cannot go with in two blocks of a school in "ST. PAUL" or "RAMSEY COUNTY". So he moves a county up and next to a school. There is some more to the story so please take the time to read the link.

From what I hear in the town, its actually his girlfriend that bought the house. People all over town are having talks of puttin up rude signs (as it is illegal to light torches and grap pitchforks and chase him out). Buisnesses are even speaking of refusing to serve the man. Now this is a rather strange story what are your thoughts?

I personally do not think that buisness should disbane the man. I do not think he should live that close to the shool, however people should not chase him out by any means. If you alienate him, he may repeat. Prehapse if the town welcomed him to his new life - he would feel as though he has succesfully started over, and would not want to mess anything up. I definatley think that he should find some new real estate though. But it is a small twinhome - so it may be his budget. Plus if you look at his mug on the site... It kinda makes you feel like he has paid his dues.

Just some thoughts.

Bipper

I think they all have the right. They're probably worried sick about their children. It's sad that people should have to worry at all about sending their child to school, because a bad person happens to live right by it.

In my opinion, sex predators should be locked in jail and have the key thrown away for doing that type of stuff to children.

Yet more evidnece that the world is a sad sad place.

This makes me happy.

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Originally Posted by Tidus5

Yet more evidnece that the world is a sad sad place.

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No it's not. like this rarely--and by this I mean nearly never--happens.
Which is why it made the news. THE NEWS is what makes the world a sad
sad place and those of you who think otherwise have been listening to too
much of it.

If you think that the world is a sad place and that a lot of people in the
world are suffering, then smurfing do something about it. If you think that
reading about and listening to the bad things going on in the world make
it a better place you're horribly mistaken. And if you keep reading news like
this then YOU'RE the one who's making the world a worse place.

It seems like these days people have the feeling that if they know about
the bad things happening in the world, they'll become more aware of other
people's suffering and be able to help them. Sadly most of these people
DON'T get out and help and instead toil in despair over the horrors in
the rest of the world until eventually the horror is that person who has
now lost hope in the world.

.opt

to be short and too the point, i'd be kind of uneasy sending my kid to a daycare next to a convicted sex offender. i've always been a believer in fresh starts. but sex offences are frowned upon even in prison, and sex offenders have been known to do their crime multiple times. these people think with their crotch, not their heads, reputation too many times has proven this and so i'd be a bit reluctant to trust him.

Most convicted child molesters will do it again. I'll have to look for the numbers, but it's somewhere near 80%. So it is understandable that people in the area would be quite nervous to have such a person within walking distance of a day care center. And all told, this guy has practically closed that day care. No one is going to put their kids in a day care next door to a child molester.

As to the businesses, I thought businesses could do business with whomesver they wished.

Quite understandable the worry the people feel, however i feel everyone should have a chance given to them, they are people too, and too many times, others forget that.

I can understand why the people were worried, but the man deserves to be able to live wherever he pleases.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

I can understand why the people were worried, but the man deserves to be able to live wherever he pleases.

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True, but I'd wear cleets or golf shoes all the time just in case.

Firstly, repeat sex offenders moving near schools is very, very common. I don't know about all states or countries, but I know most allow you to view a map of sex offender locations in your area, along with their photos and profiles. If you look at any given area you're very likely to find a pattern where they show schools.

Secondly, there is no "cure" for sex offenders. There is no effective treatment. Letting them out is basically hoping that the thought of going to jail is enough to keep them from doing it again. They're sick, and there is no cure, so we basically just hope they don't do it again when their sentence is up.

Thirdly, I have no sympathy for sex offenders, and no faith that it's safe to let them out of jail at all. Considering the statistics in this area, I don't blame anyone for doing what they can to protect their children from such a threat.

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Originally Posted by Optium

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Originally Posted by Tidus5

Yet more evidnece that the world is a sad sad place.

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No it's not. like this rarely--and by this I mean nearly never--happens.
Which is why it made the news. THE NEWS is what makes the world a sad
sad place and those of you who think otherwise have been listening to too
much of it.

If you think that the world is a sad place and that a lot of people in the
world are suffering, then smurfing do something about it. If you think that
reading about and listening to the bad things going on in the world make
it a better place you're horribly mistaken. And if you keep reading news like
this then YOU'RE the one who's making the world a worse place.

It seems like these days people have the feeling that if they know about
the bad things happening in the world, they'll become more aware of other
people's suffering and be able to help them. Sadly most of these people
DON'T get out and help and instead toil in despair over the horrors in
the rest of the world until eventually the horror is that person who has
now lost hope in the world.

.opt

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This world IS a sad, sad place. We have murderers, rapists, drug dealers, and molesters committing the most heinous crimes and then walking away the same day on bail, only to have their conviction carried out months and even years later. Even then, there stands a chance that they might get off scott free. Where is the justice in that? If this is everyones idea of 'justice', then I want no part in it. How can you heal the wounds of the families that were affected by these crimes? As a person whose life has been personally affected by a sex offender (my sister was molested by our step-grandfather), I think I have the right to be personally angered by this news. But as you say, it must be ME who is making this world a sad place, right?

anything is sad when looked at from a certain point of view. of course that goes for happy to.

i must say that if a sex offender lived near my school/house/whatever, i really wouldnt care. i may be a little uneasy but the person has done nothing to me to make me not trust him. who am i to judge someone else. if they were let out of prison then the county must think they have serverd their time. (of course no one knows for sure.)

this type of thing is a desies, thats like banning people from school because they have aids. untill he proves otherwise i woulnt really care.

(my opinion, i can see how people would be uneasy.)

Do all of you realize how much psychological damage is done to children when they are molested? This is not something that can just be rolled off your back like its no big deal. I think it is personally irresponsible if someone says, "oh well he served his year in jail so that means hes a changed man". How would you feel later if that same man turns around and molests your children? By that time, its too late to look back and say 'oops'. The old saying, 'you cant teach an old dog new tricks' is especially true when it comes to child molesters. These people suffer from a psychological disorder that cant just be turned off after a breif stint in the joint. Parents owe it to their children to be aware of exactly who is a convicted child molester in their area because there is no going back once the damage has been done.

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Originally Posted by Fithos

the person has done nothing to me to make me not trust him.

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So, what, unless it's your child they're okay?

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Originally Posted by Fithos

who am i to judge someone else.

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I don't think this is the time to take the higher ground.

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Originally Posted by Fithos

if they were let out of prison then the county must think they have serverd their time. (of course no one knows for sure.)

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They don't "serve their time." They get let out because there's nothing else to do with them, and they hope they've scared them enough to keep them from doing it again.

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Originally Posted by Fithos

this type of thing is a desies, thats like banning people from school because they have aids. untill he proves otherwise i woulnt really care.

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Maybe it is like banning a person because they have AIDS. If the person with AIDS is pulling people into the bathroom and raping them.

You're definitely not saying that here, thanks. -- foa

I think, either the offender served his debt to society or he didn't. Was the amount of jail time served a just punishment? If so, back off when the person is released. If not, change the punishment. I personally agree with the latter. Make the punishments harsher. Vigilante justice by the townsfolk after a criminal is released isn't the answer. Clearly most people would prefer that child molesters recieve life imprisonment, or at least, life in an institution. I would agree with that. Child molesters are irredeemable. They can't change. The law should acknowledge that. The common citizen though, should back off. It's not the place of the average joe to continue an excon's punishment long after release.

so no one belives that a person can change?

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Originally Posted by Fithos

so no one belives that a person can change?

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The statistics show that it's so unlikely in this case that it's not worth the risk it poses to our children.

It’s simple:

If he follows the conditions of his release and stays off the property of the Day Care centre leave him the hell alone, no doubt jail has changed his unique “fancies”. However, if he tries anything, crucify the bastard.

Meh, not much else to do really. I can’t believe crap like this actually makes it into the news. Unfortunately people are idiots, and make issues out of everything, which inevitably leads to making things worse. Why should we care? It’s not as if it effects the entire world…

I can't believe anyone would want to give this repeat sex offender another chance around children. "Well he spent some time in jail, again, so lets see if he ruins more lives before we care" does not cut it for me. Is anyone in this thread in touch with reality?

No, not really. I just don't care...

I've never heard anyone be cold enough to not care about children being sexually abused. That's pretty disturbing.

Lol, you make me sound like a monster, simply because I don’t care about something that doesn’t directly effect me. I’m sure there are lots of people who feel the same way, yet wouldn’t admit it. Oh well, people will do as they will…

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

I can't believe anyone would want to give this repeat sex offender another chance around children. "Well he spent some time in jail, again, so lets see if he ruins more lives before we care" does not cut it for me. Is anyone in this thread in touch with reality?

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So should we keep people who've shoplifted from ever walking into a store again? If so, awesome.

The thing is, legally we can't punish the guy any more unless he offends again. You can't, in theory, legislate on posibility. I certainly don't like it, but from a legal standpoint nothing can really be done unless he does it again.

Shlup has got it right.

so why dont we just kill them then?

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Originally Posted by Fithos

so why dont we just kill them then?

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I could ask the same thing about you.

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Originally Posted by Tidus5

This world IS a sad, sad place. We have murderers, rapists, drug dealers, and molesters committing the most heinous crimes and then walking away the same day on bail,

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As opposed to keeping someone in jail for an undetermined ("months and
even years") amount of time until their trial can be heard? What
happened to innocent until proven guilty?

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only to have their conviction carried out months and even years later. Even then, there stands a chance that they might get off scott free.

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If by getting off scott free you mean being found innocent by a jury of
peers, then maybe you're right. But this is the best system that we've
found that works today. Does that mean it's perfect? By no means. But
does it make the world a sad place for a system to fail at times? Hardly.
People get hurt. People die. It happens. But it doesn't mean that the
system which allows this to happen is inherently bad.

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Where is the justice in that? If this is everyones idea of 'justice', then I want no part in it. How can you heal the wounds of the families that were affected by these crimes? As a person whose life has been personally affected by a sex offender (my sister was molested by our step-grandfather), I think I have the right to be personally angered by this news. But as you say, it must be ME who is making this world a sad place, right?

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Now you're just ranting. I didn't say you can't get mad at a situation
like this, I said that toiling over other people in the world's despair in
turn only creates more despair. Do something about it, turn the anger
into something positive instead of creating more negativity.

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Originally Posted by Throne

Meh, not much else to do really. I can’t believe crap like this actually makes it into the news. Unfortunately people are idiots, and make issues out of everything, which inevitably leads to making things worse. Why should we care? It’s not as if it effects the entire world…

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Exactly. I'm with you Throne, and as you said there are probably other
people who agree too but are ashamed to admit it.

People who commit multiple murders are put in prison for life, not
people who molest children. To put the two on the same level is simply
rediculous. Also, a ton of people keep referring to statistics, but nobody
has yet to post any of these statistics and/or sources. Makes me a
little concerned that you're either making it up or too busy hearing
yourself talk to look it up. The burden of proof lies on you guys, so let's
see some sources. I'm not saying that I don't believe that it's true, I'm
saying that if you're going to bother arguing using facts, try to prevent
those facts as such instead of being lazy.

.opt

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Originally Posted by DMKA

So should we keep people who've shoplifted from ever walking into a store again? If so, awesome.

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You're equating shoplifting to child molestation/exploitation/rape... and I think I may have to beat you with a pole for it.

Aside from that, yes, shoplifters can't go back into a store they've shoplifted from. A friend of mine was caught stealing from the local Target and is banned from all Targets in our area. Should she be banned from every store everywhere? No. How is that fair? Because she didn't molest any children. :twak:

I think until people have children, or have a younger sibling they really care about, or are in danger of paedos themselves (I'm not so much a younger teen anymore, I'm 15, but I'm very short so I look like one a bit, and I'm very frightened by this) people don't really care about convicted sex offenders. Which is dissapointing, because if you do nothing now, when you do eventually have a child, there will be many more, maybe one next to YOUR child's school. I don't think you'll so be so happy to say "Oh, just give them another chance" then. I know I wouldn't.

Also, keep in mind that in the United States at least one in four females will be sexually abused sometime in her life. I think sex offenders are enough of an issue in general to warrant more extreme measures than any possible shoplifting crisis or some such nonsense.

Unfortunately 50,000 children are reported missing every year. Additionally, 1 in 4 children fall victim to inappropriate touching. Eighty five percent of the predators are known to the victim. Thinking that "it won't happen to my kids" or "I'm pretty aware of what goes on…" is exactly what pedophiles hope you think.

In the past 3 years in south carolina, there have been 364 cases of child molestation. Keep in mind that the poll was only from people who were willing to identify themselves, so the actual number is much higher.

How can anyone sit back and say, I really dont care about these children's lives because it doesnt effect me? That is one of the worst things I have heard in a long time. Maybe you need to be older to realize how stupid and dangerous it is to have no problem with a repeat sex offender living next to a school.

I agree with you tidus5. If we sit back and don't care, issues like this will become normal. I seen it said that this is normal for a peddo to get a house next to a school - that is very much not the truth. There have been a few - but it is DEFINATLEY not normal. The lesson learned here should be by the judicial branch. The sentance should not of been just for ramsey county and st. paul - how ignorant is that?

I do belive the man should be let free - able to live out his days. He should be subject to random checks, and inspections by the police. Any other preventable measure should be taken as well; Not letting him live by the school and daycare would be one.

On the business side, I do agree that business should (and can) choose whom to serve. However, I see it to be "bad buisness" exiling a customer on these grounds. If we all shunned him, think he would strike again? What if we welcomed him, and flat out laid our cards on the table? I think people prefer it the second way. I mean put youself in his shoes. If you were exiled from all the stores in town, people threw eggs at your house and harassed the hell out of you - wouldn't that make any chance of "curing" or getting away from what they have done wrong. I never disbane hope for anyone - Its the worst judgment any man can make.

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Originally Posted by talkleft.com

Sex offender treatment works. In Vermont, the recidivism rate was 7% for sex offenders who received treatment.http://talkleft.com/new_archives/009787.html#009787

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Don't they neuter people in texas for molestation charges? I belive I have heard that before. (being serious here)

New information: The house was owned by him before his second offence (Flashing a college girl)

Bipper

neuter? you mean castrate? if it's true it wouldn's be a great suprise, torture, capital punishmentm, castration. it all fits into the same line. a sick sick horrible line but not that much difference from the usual.

let he or she among you who is free from sin cast the first stone.

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Originally Posted by Fithos

let he or she among you who is free from sin cast the first stone.

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These are people who are molesting children. I may not be sin free but I will gladly step up and cast the first smurfing stone right in their sick goddamn face!

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

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Originally Posted by Fithos

let he or she among you who is free from sin cast the first stone.

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These are people who are molesting children. I may not be sin free but I will gladly step up and cast the first smurfing stone right in their sick goddamn face!

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I think this is like the 2nd or 3rd time I've said this in this thread, so I risk sounding silly, but Shlup has got it so right. It shocks that people don't feel so strong against child molesters.

Isnt whenever a sex offender moves into a neighborhood, land value drops? So couldnt this turn into an economic thing also, and to add the fact that the sex offender is near a school?

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Originally Posted by Behold the Void

The thing is, legally we can't punish the guy any more unless he offends again. You can't, in theory, legislate on posibility. I certainly don't like it, but from a legal standpoint nothing can really be done unless he does it again.

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Isnt whenever a sex offender moves into a neighborhood, land value drops? So couldnt this turn into an economic thing also, and to add the fact that the sex offender is near a school?

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Don't publicize it. Problem solved.

nik, I... I don't know how to even respond to that kind of... I don't even know. Every bit of respect I had for you is gone. I can't believe there are people out there who think sexual abuse against children is no big deal.

Dont worry i lost all respect for you shulp when you stopped thinking that they are people too D: Just because someone commited a crime does not mean they will do it again, as well as it doesnt mean that person is no longer a person at all. If he legally bought it there, then well thats too bad for you guys.

Yeah, they are people. People that should not be allowed near children for any reason because they have, on more than one occassion in the past and are likely to do so again (sorry, I know you said the fact that they did it once doesn't mean they'll do it again, but those silly little "facts" are against you on this one) in the future, sexually abused children. Is keeping people who molest children away from children really such a huge request?

"Wont somebody please think of the children?" http://www.luds.net/personnages/image_helen.gif

I typed Facts somewhere? O_o

I am likely to do many things as well, i am likely going to screw up driving or i am likely going to die next time i play a game, likely doesnt mean its going to happen and doesnt make the person any less. He served his time in prison, and while i understand the feeling people feel i just have to say thats just too freaking bad when he legally bought a house.

Everyone thinks of the kids, they are always put forth as first in this society, however no one thinks of the crimminal who is a person as well, and just because someone is a crimminal doesnt mean that they always stay that way. So is the person supposed to never get a second chance then? No person trying to right their wrongs are ever going to get the chance because people dont give one to them. Not to say they should have done the crime in the first place, but people screw up.

So i still understand the uneasiness, however that doesnt mean he doesnt have the right to live there and no one really (IMO only) has a right to kick him out of a house he legally bought himself. If you really want him far away you pay for a house for him farther away.

I didn't say you typed facts; I was talking about statistics of repeat sex offenders. Like I said in an earlier post, there is no cure for a sex offender. "Serving their time" is just a punishment that we hope, because we currently have no alternative means, scares them enough to prevent them from doing it again. Which it rarely does; the vast majority of sex offenders repeat their crime after they get out of jail. Even the guy in the article went back to jail after six years for committing another sex crime after being let out.

I'm not saying not criminals should be given a second chance. I'm not saying everyone will re-committ their crimes. I'm saying that the risk that a sex offender will committ another sex crime is so high that it's unreasonable to give them a no-conditions second chance. The only reason this man is buying the house legally is because of a loophole in the wording of the judge's ruling.

You sound like you think this guy slipped and his hand fell in a little girl's panties. Children don't get molested by accident; they're usually very well calculated crimes. Crimes that will be repeated. I won't condemn the man to jail for the rest of his life (not at this point at least) but for smurfs sake why would anyone be okay with him moving next to a child care center?

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Originally Posted by lionx

Dont worry i lost all respect for you shulp when you stopped thinking that they are people too.

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Hah! Well, thats ok, because I'm pretty sure that anyone with half a brain would agree with what me and shulp are saying.

respect points for shulp: +1
respect points for lionx: -1

Dont think that what you say isnt true too, he very might well do it again. But i guess i am too forgiving a person, but thats me, and i feel that if he wants to he could. Even if it is a little suspicious since if i screwed up somehow doing that the last thing i would probably want is more eyes on me. However that doesnt mean that he doesnt have the right to move in.

I couldnt say that the person WILL do it(will = 100%), statistics show that it is more than likely to, however we dont know if the person is one of the more than likely and if he legally bought a house there i am sorry to say that he can live there if he wants. All people have to do is keep a closer eye. Again i said i understand the uneasiness, but no one has a right really to boot him out of his house.

I am however disturbed that he was brought back in after the first arrest, but in any case what i mean by second chance applies pretty much in general about crimminals that want to really straighten themselves out as after all people do make mistakes.

Tidus: Just because someone has different opinions than you doesnt mean i am stupid. I just did not like her way of direspecting someone for having different opinions, hence the remark. If she really doesnt like that then i will apologize, but that still doesnt make anyone more or less of a brain.

There are very few instances where I am not accepting of other's opinions. This is one of them. Hell, this is the big one.

Why is it everyone else's responsibility to babysit the repeat sex offender? How many children have to be effected before we can say enough? Seriously, how many children is this man's freedom to live on that street worth to you? We're not talking about a child's life versus his life, we're talking about the life of several children versus him just plain living near children. He may be a person, but so are the children whose lives he's potentially ruined, and so are those who he is likely to abuse when faced with dozens of available school children.

the problem is child molesters don't commit their crimes out of disregard for the law. They commit their crimes out of sexual desire, or out of some subconscious sickness that is very difficult to control. Part of the healing process for child molesters should be to be kept out of easy reach of children. It's for their own good.

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nik, I... I don't know how to even respond to that kind of... I don't even know. Every bit of respect I had for you is gone. I can't believe there are people out there who think sexual abuse against children is no big deal.

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When did I say it was no big deal? I'm just saying that if you are going to bitch about property value, don't turn around and support publicizing sex offenders. If you think it's worth it, then there is no need to complain. If you don't, you never should have supported it in the first place. See where I'm coming from?

No I don't see where you're coming from.

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

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Originally Posted by Fithos

let he or she among you who is free from sin cast the first stone.

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These are people who are molesting children. I may not be sin free but I will gladly step up and cast the first smurfing stone right in their sick goddamn face!

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Somewhat ironic seeing as that quote was used against those who would
have stoned a sex offender.

.opt

PS, Those of you who are giving and taking respect points need to
loosen/grow up.

If people are going to bitch about property value decreasing, then they shouldn't support publicizing sex offenders to the whole world. I don't know how else I can describe it. If people don't want to take the 'bad' with the 'good' then I don't know what to tell them.

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Originally Posted by Optium

Somewhat ironic seeing as that quote was used against those who would
have stoned a sex offender.

.opt

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I suppose. >_>

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

If people are going to bitch about property value decreasing, then they shouldn't support publicizing sex offenders to the whole world. I don't know how else I can describe it. If people don't want to take the 'bad' with the 'good' then I don't know what to tell them.

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I guess. I don't really see property values as an argument in this situation anyway though; it was just a flippant comment someone made.

...it wasnt a comment, but more of a question! :D

*goes back and reads the post*

Oh yeah. It was just a question, not even a statement or argument.

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

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Originally Posted by Fithos

so no one belives that a person can change?

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The statistics show that it's so unlikely in this case that it's not worth the risk it poses to our children.

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Actually, statistics show that EVERY child molester will repeat, even after prison, unless something physically prevents them from such activity. You cut off their balls, they won't... break their spine, thus permamently paralyzing them, they won't... put a knife in them a few times and let them bleed to death, and they won't... lock them up for the rest of their lives, they won't... traumatize them so thoroughly that all they can do is sit in a corner and hug their legs all day, and they won't. But let them out with the ability to molest again, and they will. Every. Single. ****ing. Time. Without. Exception.

That's not to say some activities that fall under the catagory of "sexual offence" will necessarily be something that is in the catagory of child molesting. But child molesters truly, somehow, believe their perversion is "love".... and our science just CANNOT break them of that. Disturbing, but true. Maybe at some time in the future these creatures (so far as I'm concerned, they are NOT human) can be somehow controlled... but until that day, lock them up, throw away the key, then push the cage into a lake.


Respect points for Schlup: somewhere in the mid to upper 50s.

No need to get personal, so don't. -Necronopticous

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

neuter? you mean castrate? if it's true it wouldn's be a great suprise, torture, capital punishmentm, castration. it all fits into the same line. a sick sick horrible line but not that much difference from the usual.

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A punishment to a crime should be no worse than the harm cause by the crime itself. Molestation leads to sexual disfunction, drug abuse, and suicide (only to name a few).... I've seen what it does, and there is no act that a human could perform on these things to properly punish them for their actions.


Oh, and just in case no one caught it the previous times:

THERE IS NO CURE, OR EVEN EFFECTIVE TREATMENT

im so sick of this smurfing criminal rights bull too. obviously, a common thief or whatever isnt that bad, but once you decide you want to smurf some kid and smurf em up for life, you lose all rights in my opinion. i dont care that your a smurfing homo sapien, your not a person in my opinion. your just a stupid sick mothersmurfer who needs to get his smurfing ass beat. why the smurf should i give a smurfing about any of these goddamn mothersmurfing dumb smurfers. smurf!!! :mad:


phew, ok, i got that out. :p

Why don't you swear a little more? I'm sure that will make everything better. :rolleyes2

Anyways, I'm on both sides of the argument here. I agree that him living by the school isn't such a great idea, and that the judge should have made sure that this was not an option, but as it turns out, it is.

However, with all the goddamn media surrounding all this, and all the protection that parents are surely going to give their kids, I think the molestor would be stupid to even attempt it again, what with him knowing what will happen if he does. Of course, if he craves young meat that much, and punishment isnt on his mind at all, then we have a problem.

I agree that the police should do frequent checkups, monitor him very closely, and do everything else they can to assure he doesnt molest anyone else. That being said, there's no need to kick him out of his property just for a possible fear of repitition. And I'm sure if the guy wanted to bone so badly, he could easily seek out a helpless kid somewhere away from the school, which actually might be a worse thing considering all the protection you get from your neighborhood is gone, and have his way. In fact, if he never moved by the school, the media wouldnt be so big and therefore the parents much less protective of their kids.

The media always brings out the worst in humanity. People feed for fear. Just plane old good news never seems to fit the bill, so we bring up stuff like this instead. Yes, it is a very big issue that needs to be dealed with, but nobody is perfect and people make mistakes, no matter how big they may be. Molesting is no shoplifiting, but it's not like he went on a killing spree. Some people have problems, and for that, they deserve whatever possible treatment they can get.

udsuna - there are treatments that have been proven to help. Sure, it may not work for some people - but if you would read in my post earlier - i left a solid good link to read more on this.

Now if only we had a cure for ignorance.


Bipper

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tidus5

How can anyone sit back and say, I really dont care about these children's lives because it doesnt effect me? That is one of the worst things I have heard in a long time. Maybe you need to be older to realize how stupid and dangerous it is to have no problem with a repeat sex offender living next to a school.

---

Hmm, I’m going to presume you were talking about me when you posted that. Let’s just say it’s VERY easy.

Anyway, before anyone else gets all “gung hoe” about this, let’s put a few things into prospective:

1. This is happening in Chisago, not everywhere in the world. This makes it a community problem, not world news.
2. Whoever alerted then media of this incident was obviously doing it in an attempt to unlawfully remove the man from his neighbourhood, by attempting to cause mass protests.
3. The most likely result of such a protest would be to increase the chances that he WILL attempt to sexually assault another child.

I realize that you must think that it’s the right thing to do to be outraged and work yourself up about something like this, but in the end that sort of mentality only makes things worse. I would really like to know then nature of the sexual crimes this man has committed, because so far the only crimes that were described in that link were acts of indecent exposure, and while that is technically sexual assault, it is nothing compared to what the words would usually imply. It makes me wonder if his first charge was for a similar act….

I still stand by my original post: Leave him alone if he does nothing, react accordingly if he does. This is not something that requires the media coverage it has somehow been provided with, and I can’t help but feel that all protesting is going to do is guide the hand of an already mentally disturbed subject. So really, is it so terrible for me not to care, especially when nothing has happened yet and he is located on the other side of the world? It’s not as if my indifference is going to make things worse…

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bipper

Now if only we had a cure for ignorance.


Bipper

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Or for people not reading replies to a post before they reply themselves.
These forums are absolutely horrible about that.

Cheers once again Throne.

.opt

"Actually, statistics show that EVERY child molester will repeat, even after prison, unless something physically prevents them from such activity. You cut off their balls, they won't... break their spine, thus permamently paralyzing them, they won't... put a knife in them a few times and let them bleed to death, and they won't... lock them up for the rest of their lives, they won't... traumatize them so thoroughly that all they can do is sit in a corner and hug their legs all day, and they won't. But let them out with the ability to molest again, and they will. Every. Single. ****ing. Time. Without. Exception."

i could say that for theives, murders, drug users, dealers, fraudsters, the ignorant, the work shy, socialists, capitalists, those who speak out, the jews.

we could slaughter every single last one of them. but we don't. why? because no matter what anyone does on this earth they are human. no matter who you are, what you have done, what you are, you are still human. you are still entitled to everything offered by the fact you are human. these people still have rights. it is given to them in every country of this world. a right to live. a right to not be mutilated and maimed. and maybe this is what places us above these people.

but udsuna your hatred, passion for pain and suffering places you on the same plane as them. i hope you remember that.

What kind of crack did you smoke today, Cloud? xD

You talk as if child molesters are just "different." They have sexual relations with children for Christ's sake! Whether they're human or not, they've infringed (usually repeatedly) on the rights of others, and I think that means they have to give up some of their rights. Don't you? At least the "right" to live around children! I know udsuna is being a bit extreme, but he does have a point: these people need to be stopped in order to protect the rights of others, and as it is that isn't happening.

And, no, the right to live isn't given by every country in the world. Not even in the United States. You start off with it, but by infringing on the rights of other you forfit that right. And many countries don't protect people from being maimed in response to crimes committed.

Aside from udsuna being extreme on the issue, I don't see how it makes him just as bad as them. Even if he killed a child molester he hasn't molested any children, and that puts him a step up in my book.

there is no such thing as forefitting your human rights. under no circumstances can you lose them. they are not given by a law. they are not dictated. they are eteranal and unchanging. given to every human from birth to death.

"these people need to be stopped in order to protect the rights of others, and as it is that isn't happening." that is why the need rehabilitating. and actually i believe most are mentall ill and if so belong in a mental home not a jail. and without a sentence on them but treated until they are cured. they are ill not evil.

"Aside from udsuna being extreme on the issue, I don't see how it makes him just as bad as them." because he seems to like the idea of mutilating, maiming and killing other human beings.

"Even if he killed a child molester he hasn't molested any children, and that puts him a step up in my book." no he just wants to mutilate and maim people for life and kill them. that is why he is no higher. a man who seeks to do that to any other person has sunk to the lowest possible level.

So, statistics show that what, 80% of them will do it again? No matter where they live, they'll be able to find kids, unless they live in a prison, ofcourse. So I don't think it matters that much where he lives.

Quote:

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ThroneofDravaris
1. This is happening in Chisago, not everywhere in the world. This makes it a community problem, not world news.

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Wrong, buddy. This happens every day. Every where. At any time. And I'm arguing about child molesters in general, not just this one sick person in Chicago.

Quote:

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I realize that you must think that it’s the right thing to do to be outraged and work yourself up about something like this, but in the end that sort of mentality only makes things worse.

---

In some situations, I agree that getting upset only makes things worse. But in this case, I totally disagree. We are talking about children being molested. The mentality that we should not take this seriously is exactly the thing that makes this worse. People who believe that repeat sex offenders should be given chance after chance are wrong when the statistics prove that child molestation is a sick condition with no cure. People need to be angry about this news because these people are DANGEROUS.

"child molestation is a sick condition with no cure." then it does not deserve jail it requires treatment, rehabilitation, understanding and mercy. you cannot punish the sick.

No, paedophilia is. An action isn't a condition. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

"child molestation is a sick condition with no cure." then it does not deserve jail it requires treatment, rehabilitation, understanding and mercy. you cannot punish the sick.

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I agree with what you're saying about not punishing the sick, and I never thought that they all should be thrown in jail, except in the worst cases. On the other hand, I think they need to be very closely monitored.

I also feel that these people should not be allowed to buy houses near schools.

I think there needs to be some legislation passed that restricts these people from living within a certain radius of daycars, school, etc. I know that its against the Constitution to say that someone can't live where they choose, but its also against the law to molest children. I think that when they choose to make that decision, they gave up their rights to privacy, etc.

Quote:

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No, paedophilia is. An action isn't a condition. :p

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Oops, I stand corrected. :p

but the condition forces the action.

the problem with letting pedophiles out of jail is they should have never been in jail. that is no way to treat/cure them. it deosn't have the right facilities to deal with these people. they should be treated as anyone else is who is a danger to themselves or others and is mentally ill.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

Even if he killed a child molester he hasn't molested any children, and that puts him a step up in my book.

---

Dear God that is one smurfed up book.

Also, I think I've heard the word statistics used in almost every single
post recently, yet nobody's bothered to post any type of source or even
quote really, except for one saying that there is treatment for sex
offenders.

.opt

i must agree with cloud no.9. these people dont need to be in jail, they should be in a hospital enviroment getting cured. just because a cure does not exist dosnt mean they woulnt find one.

where do you suggest they live. no matter where you put them they will get the same treatment from people. we have a convicted sex offender in my neighborhood, and people are trying to kick him out. we dont live by any schools or anything either.

did you ever think that something they take into consideration when molesting kids the second time is how people treat them. i mean if they are being accused of a crime they might as well be doing it.

i dont personoly think that sex offenders think when they do that. its a subconcios act of which some of them probably have little to no controll.

WWJD

Anyone that advocates killing really doesnt get much points =/ To me if you think its a disease, then we have different variations of that disease in which theres hetreo, homo, and any other type of attraction is considered a disease related to this. I dont really want to get into the mess of this thread as of now, but just to say i still stand firm where i am and that they are people too and should be treated as such.

I've been reading this thread, and I must say that both sides raise valid points. Sure, the guy has molested children in the past. No, I don't agree that placing him near a day care center is a good thing at all. Legally, however, he has the right, or else he would be forced to move, as much as I disagree with that. Seeing as he's able to live there, one could argue that he's using a loophole in the law to do it again.

I'm glad GooeyToast brought up the fact that it's a big deal in the town, and in the local media. That would/could give the guy leverage against his doing it again, at least until it died down.

As to the moralily side of the debate: One of the things that frustrates me the most about American society is that some people get scared and jump to conclusions far too easily about stuff they see on the media. Yeah, bad stuff happens, but the world isn't a total poophole because of it, and not everyone is evil. When they see enough media stories about killers and whatnot, they get scared of other people in general, because they thing that criminals are so common that they must be absolutely everywhere. In this particular case, however, I agree that it's a valid reason for parents to be afraid. It's like bringing a psychopathic serial killer in a busy residence and letting him live completly unsupervised, people should be scared of that as it's a real, unimagined threat. If I was a parent, I'd be cautious of leaving a kid at the day care center.

I, however, don't think child molesting is on quite the same level as murder. Sure, the kids that are victims may suffer horrible phychological damage, but the basic life essence hasn't be taken away...they're still alive and breathing. The guy shouldn't be allowed to live near a large place for kids, but I don't think people should harass him or put any sort of signs on his door. I think the time he served is big enough punishment for him, and the people in that community should instead put their energies toward doing whatever is best for their children.

Lastly, I don't know any statistics...but I think that if a sex offender really wanted to change, he/she would. Saying that every one will repeat their offenses is a pretty broad generalization, I think.

Thank you Graves >< I agree entirely. I dont like him living near a daycare but it doesnt mean he didnt legally bought the house there.

Indeed. If what he's doing is legal and you don't want him to be doing it,
go to your representatives and make it illegal. If it's not made illegal, then
the majority of the population doesn't want it to be. If it is, then they do
and it'll work out.

.opt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

there is no such thing as forefitting your human rights. under no circumstances can you lose them. they are not given by a law. they are not dictated. they are eteranal and unchanging. given to every human from birth to death.

---

That's your opinion. And, mostly, mine. But I'm not quite that forgiving.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

that is why the need rehabilitating. and actually i believe most are mentall ill and if so belong in a mental home not a jail. and without a sentence on them but treated until they are cured. they are ill not evil.

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But that isn't happening, which is 90% of my point. Say there was no cure for alcoholism. Would we be like "Oh well, have fun at the bar, boozer!" No, we wouldn't. And anyone who has a mental illness that puts children in danger should be kept far, far away from children.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

because he seems to like the idea of mutilating, maiming and killing other human beings.

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But he hasn't done anything. I mean, Kishi talks all the time about little school girls but he hasn't raped any. Is he just as bad?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

no he just wants to mutilate and maim people for life and kill them. that is why he is no higher. a man who seeks to do that to any other person has sunk to the lowest possible level.

---

He hasn't done anything. We're talking about people who not only want to do unspeakable things, but have. And not for the sake of justice, as udsuna's misguided views are focused on, but for personal pleasure. There's a big fat line between wanting to cut a child molester's balls off and having raped a little girl.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

then it does not deserve jail it requires treatment, rehabilitation, understanding and mercy. you cannot punish the sick.

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Even when we're sick we're still responsible for our actions. An alcoholic is still responsible for killing someone while driving drunk. A mother suffering from post partum psychosis is still responsible for having murdered her children. Yes, they need treatment, but there isn't any and I don't think a fair solution in the mean time is to just let them go and hope they don't molest any children.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

but the condition forces the action.

the problem with letting pedophiles out of jail is they should have never been in jail. that is no way to treat/cure them. it deosn't have the right facilities to deal with these people. they should be treated as anyone else is who is a danger to themselves or others and is mentally ill.

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And if they seek help before committing the crime they will recieve mental help. Like I said earlier in this post, humans are always responsible for their actions no matter what their mental condition may be. And, especially with this "illness," the criminal does make a very clear and conscious choice in their actions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Optium

Dear God that is one smurfed up book.

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I want to make it clear that I'm not condoning murder. Killing someone is a small step up from molesting children, but it is still a step up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Optium

Also, I think I've heard the word statistics used in almost every single post recently, yet nobody's bothered to post any type of source or even quote really, except for one saying that there is treatment for sex offenders.

.opt

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I only know this information because it's part of my studies. I'll try to pick out some I think are important...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by www.prevent-abuse-now.com

*Reported cases of child sexual abuse reached epidemic proportions, with a reported 322 percent increase from 1980 to 1990.

*The typical child sex offender molests an average of 117 children, most of who do not report the offence.

* In the adult retrosptective study, victimization was reported by 27 percent of the women and 16 percent of the men.

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I wasn't able to find any specific numbers on re-committing the crimes, just that they're likely to do so. Maybe I'll look harder later. People also neglect to realize that many sex offenders (around 40%) just get probation. That's it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fithos

i must agree with cloud no.9. these people dont need to be in jail, they should be in a hospital enviroment getting cured. just because a cure does not exist dosnt mean they woulnt find one.

where do you suggest they live.

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Where do you suggest they live? They've committed a crime, they've been punished, but there is no cure for their mental condition. Do you think your neighborhood is better than jail? Or that a mental facility where there still is no treatment is better than jail?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fithos

did you ever think that something they take into consideration when molesting kids the second time is how people treat them. i mean if they are being accused of a crime they might as well be doing it.

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There. Is. No. Excuse. For. Molesting. Children. None. Not even kinda.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fithos

i dont personoly think that sex offenders think when they do that. its a subconcios act of which some of them probably have little to no controll.

---

Well that's just plain not true. From that link I posted ealier in this post, more than half lull their victim into a sense of at least near comfort through seduction. It's a very calculated process. I can't believe you're trying to defend such blatanly deliberate actions. There is no such thing as accidently raping a little girl.

To Graves (without making this post longer by quoting your whole post): I really, really don't think you know a thing about this topic. And I'm not saying that to be a jerk or put you down, but you don't seem to have a concept of how wide-spread this problem is. Over 1/4th of all girls in the US will be sexually abused in their lifetime, as well as a large number of boys (what was it? 1/6th or something?). The psychological effects last their entire lives and can, and often do, completely ruin their lives. Many will tell you they would rather have died. And the age of the child doesn't matter; it effects children of all ages. I really don't want to go into the effects, it's a long and depressing list, but please don't minimize the effects of possibly the most horrid thing anyone could do to a person.

And it is a pretty big problem just population-wise. Than National Sex Offender Registry reporst over 491,720 registered sex offenders living in the US. And 95% of victims know their abuser.

It's just bizzare to me how so many people in this thread seem to think child molestation isn't just the worst thing ever. xP

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

Over 1/4th of all girls in the US will be sexually abused in their lifetime, as well as a large number of boys (what was it? 1/6th or something?). The psychological effects last their entire lives and can, and often do, completely ruin their lives. Many will tell you they would rather have died.

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I think that was stated earlier, and I did read that. Also, while I understand that it can affect a person in many bad ways....I still think murder is a bigger deal to me. (Which, of course, you understand, I've never been molested, so you must understand how easy it is to say this. I guess.) I should look up this...list up sometime, though I don't think it'll affect my stance much.

Well my stance is basically that if you're murdered, you're dead. If you're raped/molested/whatever you're essentailly living in hell. It shatters everything about who you are, and the effects can possibly last your entire life if you don't get proper help for it. It effects every part of your life, while murder... kills you.

Now, mind you, murder totally sucks and is also a problem in the world, I just don't think it's as bad. And a lot of women agree with me. I saw a show once where a woman was being interviewed because she was about to be raped, and decided that if he was going to rape her he'd have to kill her first because she'd rather be dead than let that be done to her. So she kicked his ass.

Of course, sexual assault being worse than murder is a very subjective thing and it's hard to find any support on the topic, but I'm confident you'll find that the majority of people (or at least women, I don't know about the general male standpoint on the issue) is that they'd rather die than let that happen to them. I would.

Are you refering to the infamous MR BALDY?, If so are you Australian? and if so from where?

My opinion of this is: If the person in question truly wishes to repent for his sins then fine, nut they should be under intense scutiny.

And I agree that the person in question should not be moved into the path on temptation.

First off, I'm not going to argue any of this with any of you. I'm not here to debate the rights of molestors or of anyone, I simply want to reinforce what Amanda is saying.

I would rather have died. And I'd rather die now than ever experience it again. I was molested at 16 by my mother's boyfriend, and the damage it has done stems far beyond the damage to my body. That healed and went away. I was left with a fear of men and an inability to enjoy sexual contact from anyone.

Now, I'm sure this is nothing for most of you, and you'd rather risk it happening to countless other people in the interest that this man, this one man, can be happy and fruitful. That's fine. I'm not here to argue that.

Since the time I was 16 I've intensely feared all older men. I enlisted in the Army at 18, and consequently spent every day trembling in fear of these men who I knew could easily hurt me if they wanted to. Without consequence for them. I didnt sleep, I had horrid migraines, and I was miserable every single second of every day. So they sent me home.

I was soon living with my father, and that was the worst part of all. Because I feared him. My own father, who would gladly light himself on fire before ever doing anything to hurt me. I was scared of my own dad, and at that point I wanted to kill myself for it. You have no idea, any of you who have never been violated in such a way, what it's like. You never will. You'll never have any idea what it's like to fear someone you love and trust so much, when they've never even done anything to you.

I cant even properly articulate these thoughts, and I cant show any of you my emotions. It's something you wont ever understand, and I praise God for that. I dont want anyone else to understand. And I wouldnt risk any child, ever, to have to pass by the house of someone who would willingly defile them, their innocense and purity, and destroy their future happiness, for any reason.

If the rest of you are fine with letting a fox into a henhouse because he's been punished once, fine. If a right to live in a house, when there are hundreds of thousands of other homes to choose from, is higher than the right of a child to be safe and happy, then so be it. I wont argue with any of you. Because none of you will ever understand. None of you will understand until, God forbid, it happens to your own child someday. And then you can see how many people it effects, and watch the slow inner destruction of an innocent child.

It never goes away. It never stops effecting you. Ever. When the man you love touches you, it's there.

That's really all I have to say, and I doubt it made much sense, but whatever. That's all I have to say about it, and I know it wont make one whit of difference to most of you.

There are other houses to live in. If you think this is about someone's right to own property, you are wrong. He can own all the property he wants. Just not there.

Why does it have to be there? I believe in overcoming things, and I believe in redemption and human willpower, but I'll tell you this; if you're truly trying to overcome, you don't put the temptation in front of you. If you're an alcoholic you don't own a bar, if you're a herion addict you don't keep in touch with your dealers, and if you want to stop hurting children, you stay away from them.

If this were a case of a sex offender trying to move into a town and the town trying to cast him/her out, I would be on their side. This is a sex offender exploiting a legal loophole, and moving next to a school. That's it.

And stop it with the flaming.

Abominatrix, thank you for sharing that. Maybe now some people who read this will see what I've been trying to point at, but I dont think anyone could have said it better than you.

My sister was molested by our step-grandfather when she was only 7. None of you can understand how much physical and psychological damage this caused her. None of you, besides those who have had their lives affected by these sick people, can truly understand how this is.

I will never forget the day I found out that my baby sister was molested. I will never forget the anger I felt inside that this had happened. I wanted to scream at the top of my lungs, burn down buildings, drive 90 miles and hour into a brick wall, and beat the man to death with a baseball bat at the same time.

I will never forget having to jump on top of my dad to stop him from driving to my grandmothers house. I dont know what he would have done to the man once he got there, but I'm pretty sure that once he was done, he wouldnt be breathing.

I also will never forget my grandmother committing suicide because she felt that she was the one who brought that man into our lives.

Yeah, try and tell me that these sick bastards deserve a second chance. Try and tell me that they shouldnt be locked up in prison or asylums or under intense surveillence.

The gravity of a situation never really hits someone until they experience it themselves, but I pray to God that none of you will ever have to go through what any victims of molestation have to endure. To rob a child of their innocence is one of the worst things anyone can ever do.

no, he cant. as i stated erlier, their is a convicted sex offender in my neighborhood (no schools or anything around) and they are still trying to kick him out.

he will be treated the same werever he goes. i admit he probably shouldnt live near a daycare center but no matter where he goes people will treat him like a non-living organism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fithos

no, he cant. as i stated erlier, their is a convicted sex offender in my neighborhood (no schools or anything around) and they are still trying to kick him out.

he will be treated the same werever he goes. i admit he probably shouldnt live near a daycare center but no matter where he goes people will treat him like a non-living organism.

---

I wish I could say I felt sympathetic.

sry tidus, i was posting while you were so i didnt see yours.

i agree that what they do is horrible. ther is no doubt about that. but their are other ways to protect children than force people to live in jail. once again i must insist that these people should be in a hospital. if you condemn them to live in jail, you condemn them to death. i agree that what they did is bad, and i wish/hope no one ever had/has to go through it, but while they are alive they have the potential to change. no they shouldnt be let near children, they probably shouldnt be let out of watchfull sight. but they are still human.

i dont think it is necesary to get the media invovled. alert the neighborhood and take any precaution that is felt necesary. but get the media invovled and then it becomes a worldwide alert fest. everyone who see's this will immedatly find out what happened and that has devistating effects on everyone.

the convicted one is a gimmie.

the victem will be put on display which will hurt them more.

everyone will stop trusting eachother.

take any precaution necesary.

I really don't have a stance...I just find it fascinating how society reacts to these kinds of things, so I ask questions just for the hell of getting answers.

I read up to where you [shlup] said this and skimmed the rest:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Also, keep in mind that in the United States at least one in four females will be sexually abused

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I quote this because I find 'sexually abused' and 1/4 to be severely insane. Are you sure it's not fiction, ore perhaps more accurately, a very VERY general definition?

I mean 1/4 women will say, for argument's sake, be approached and have physical contact made which was unwarranted and unwanted, would be more believable.

I consider sexual abuse to be a more serious act, like attempted rape, pushing sexual activities too far, or just plain pedophilia like the topic of this thread.

(not to trivialise the annoyance women go through when they get molested in public -- having lived with two attractive women, I've had to sit there while they rant about such things after having gone through it)

Anywho my initial response was that they paid their dues, but if Shlupquack is accurate (though I will not grant her authority status just yet), then people should be cautious. Hell people should be cautious REGARDLESS, but right here we have a person who has previously committed crimes which we consider very serious.

Even further is the idea that we attribute negative judgement without reasonable cause. For example if I, my brother, and our friends were to parade around town in our 'goth gear', we'd get the same treatment despite acting in the exact same way that we would've had we worn 'normal' clothes. So that's another argument to support being wary.

I just received an idea for a thread. Huzzah.

Because I'm a mediaslut, I have to say this.

An underage victim of child abuse/molestation will not be put on public display through the media. That is illegal, unless of course this child's parents waive the right of that child and put them on public display. Additionally, certain States within the US have VERY inconsistent reporting of registered sex offenders. Each State DOES force them to register, and each State makes that list avaliable somehow. However, most States DON'T notify community members when a registered sex offender comes to town; they let them find out for themselves. However, in recent years, people in small communities have been using their local papers and other local media to keep track of this, basically because local media centers have tools that private citizens do not.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in a right to privacy, and I believe everyone deserves that in varying degrees. However, I do agree with Shlup in that almost everyone is responsible for their actions, regardless of uncontrollable desire (the exception, of course, being those who are so insane they can't function at all in normal society). And when you commit an act such as this, you should very well expect to give up many of your rights.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Professor Unne

For example if I, my brother, and our friends were to parade around town in our 'goth gear', we'd get the same treatment despite acting in the exact same way that we would've had we worn 'normal' clothes.

---

Sorry, Im having trouble following this. Are you saying that the way we act towards convicted child molesters is comparable to the way 'normal' society treats goths?

can i be the first one to say here that even though i defend the rights of child molestors and rapists this is not because i do not know what their victims go through. i was abused when i was younger. and i still feel the same way about my abuser. that my abuser was sick and does not deserve to be harmed but rather to be treated.

Ah, yes, that survival tactic. Create a level of control over your situation by forgiving your attacker. Cute.

Great therapy technique, don't get me wrong, and you shouldn't let my above statement ruin that for you. But I've seen the damage those monsters cause, and it's a travesty in the eye of any kind of justice that they're not killed in ways so horrific that the fear of that alone is enough for would-be pedophiles to kill themselves so as to avoid giving into the desire to molest.

how dare you insult what i have been through? what gives you the right to call my recovery "cute"?

you have no idea what happened to me through those years. you have no right to judge me. and then to call my forgiveness of a man a cute recovery technique is a slap in the face. to call it a survival tactic?

i am stronger than you will ever be. and not for what i have been through. not my "survival technique" and it's cuteness.

and no i haven't forgiven my abuser. my feelings aren't of forgiveness. it's an emotion that i have difficulty putting into words. it's not pity but.... i woud wish no harm upon my abuser for the crimes.

to wish a horrible death upon a man? it says alot about you.

I'm all for treating people who admit they have a problem in this area, even after they've committed the crime. But if they committed a crime, they committed a crime. They should go to jail. They should be treated, yes, but treatment is not a replacement for punishment when a crime has been committed.

There is no such thing as a repeat sex offender "serving their time." The sentence is often made by judges as ignorant to the topic as many posters in this thread, who don't realize that the victim is serving a life sentence and six years and a slap on the wrist doesn't compare to that.

Child molesters aren't victims of themselves. They can control themselves, and, contrary to what many people seem to believe, they don't molest children by accident. I haven't seen anyone in this thread that's for treatment for these 'poor sick people' acknowledging the fact that sexual abuse is a calculated and very deliberate choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

I haven't seen anyone in this thread that's for treatment for these 'poor sick people' acknowledging the fact that sexual abuse is a calculated and very deliberate choice.

---

As calculated and deliberate as any other form of rape. But a helluva lot sicker and more evil.

The repeat account though was flashing a college chick. I am not sure what this entails - but yeah. I hear a lot of this happening at colleges. It abnormal - but he is not a repeeat child molester. (that we know of of course)

also - there are some rapists who act on compulsion - these are the most dangerous kinds. Not every child molester calculates and plans. Nor does ever homocidal maniac, rapist, calepto.
bipper

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bipper

The repeat account though was flashing a college chick. I am not sure what this entails - but yeah. I hear a lot of this happening at colleges. It abnormal - but he is not a repeeat child molester. (that we know of of course)

bipper

---

This is true, but the subject has long since spiralled off of this specific guy and gone on to the obvious next step.

You people realize you're making excuses for child molesters, right?

No Mandee, it's okay. I feel so much better now. I finally understand. It's okay that he ruined my life, and probably the lives of many others. Because he couldnt control himself. So long as he cant, that's fine. I mean, if he has a compulsion to eat babies from the mother's womb, we should respect that and treat him, because really, it isnt his fault. [/blatant sarcasm]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

to wish a horrible death upon a man? it says alot about you.

---

Yes, it does say a lot about me. It says that I'm willing to do what it takes, no matter how much the bleeding heart cowards and weak willed victims say it's "wrong" to them. I'm not talking about killing them just to kill them. Punishment should be about either rehabilitation or social service.

As it is completely impossible to "cure" a pedophile (define pedophile as 'one who sexually desires children), and it's impossible to guarantee that one who has already actualized that desire (molested a child) will never do it again.... the only sensible thing to do is allow a social service to occur from the punishment itself. Incarceration and/or therapy, it is painfully appearant, neither treats nor discourages the act. It also has no affect what-so-ever on repeat offences.

So, if we come up with something *so terrifying* that they'd do anything within their power to prevent themselves from actually going through with their desire and commit the act in the first place... say, by voluntarily submitting themselves to a controlled surgical castration? And failing that, a nice bullet in the brain is effective and relatively cheap.

Besides, I don't wish horrible death on any man or woman. Humans and (most) animals are deserving of kindness and compassion where possible, and if nothing else mercy. Those... things... child molesters... they're not human... they are a heinous and horrific disease unworthy even of the time necessary to destroy them.

Death of a child molester? I'd take no pleasure in the event, but I wouldn't shead a tear for it, either.

Well, that's not true. My pleasure would be relief that it is gone, and my tears would be for those who had to suffer for it's pleasure.


Oh, and, FYI, I have no particular fondess for mutilating or inflicting pain on anyone or anything. In fact I'm generally a happy pacifist. But I do have a skill with descriptive words, and there is nothing other than unmitigated cruelty that has the possible hope of ever working on these monsters. At least, within the limits of our current knowlege and technology.

is it your duty to purge this land udsuna? to make a choice before? to judge lest ye be judged? to murder? and then what leg do you have to stand on to call these people wrong? once you kill a man what right do you have to say you are above him?

and yes they are human. they are as human as you are i. they are sick. what causes the illness they don't know. they are as ill as schizophrenics, the paranoid, the ones suffering from mpd. they are as sick as iain brady and peter sutcliffe.

you wanna scare people out of a crime? it is not a crime borne out of rage, greed, jealousy or anger. it is a crime out of desire. a sick and twisted desire. a desire that comes out of a mental disease. you cannot deal with the crime unless you deal with the disease. and a purge is not a way to do that.

it's almost like the way in which an addict would act once he has gone cold turkey. the urge is there. and it builds and it builds. there are things that can be done to suppress it. but without proper care the pressure that is building will continue. at this point they could go seek help. but many are fearful of this. pedophiles are not seen in the same way drug addicts are and anyone would be extremely fearful of coming out and saying "yes doc i have this uncontrollable urge to have sex with a child." so many continue to try and repress the feelings themselves. but at one point it will break and the urge will win over and that will be that. sutcliffe did it with the voices in his head. at one point the urge will win over and at that point you won't blame the addict and you can't blame the pedophile.

maybe if it was easier for these people to get help when they need it and society stops this witch hunt for them then maybe we will see more of these people able to control themselves.

Yeah that's right cloud. People shouldnt be held accountable for their actions. Society should allow them a kid or two, to keep that urge from building. We shouldnt hold anyone accountable for what they do, it's our fault for not allowing it!

Guess what. What that man ruins someone's life because he 'cant control his urges' (boo smurfing hoo), it his his fault, and he WILL be held accountable. ALWAYS.

I'm done with this thread. It sickens me more than anything in this forum yet has, and that's saying something.

if you provide him with the right psychriatric care he may not feel the need to abuse a child.

tHeRe Is No ExCuSe FoR sExUaLlY tOuChInG a ChIlD

AT ALL. None. Not even a little bitty one. Not even one that should keep an offender from being punished to the full extent of the law. Just because we may associate it with the word "illness" does not make a person who seeks out and molests a child a victim. Not on any level. And reading all these excuses and allowenes that people are making for people who are molesting children is just... it's so wrong I can't put it into words.

They may need treatment, yes, but that doesn't even kind of excuse the fact that they victimised children.

It's his responsibility to seek it. It's not my responsibility to not be a supple young child. He's an adult. He knows his choices.

The last thing I'll say. My mother wanted to kill the man who molested me. That's why I didnt tell anyone, because I didnt want to see my mother in jail. Because she has this urge, if she acts on it, that's okay because it's an urge she cant control, right? udsana should be allowed to kill them if he cant control the urge. That's your logic, isnt it? Murder certainly isnt accepted either. So as long as they cant control the urge, they're fine, just a little misguided, right? Maybe Bush couldnt control the urge to invade Iraq? No matter how many lives they ruin, it's okay, because they couldnt control themselves. Those poor, poor people and their compulsions.

Can I pass judgement? Hell yes, with ease, I can.

Pedophilia, the root disease, is a sexual urge. It's no more, or less, than any other sexual desire... just twisted into a direction that makes it impossible to actualize without an act of rape.

Hypothetically, say you're suddenly teleported to some bizare land where everyone is already happily married and would never cheat (or are just generally not into whichever gender you are). Or, better yet, futuristic world where no one desires sex anymore. Or even kissing/petting/etc.

They'll never, ever, EVER willingly have sex with you. Would you rape someone to satisfy your "urge"? Would you? It's the only way, aside from your own fantasies and hand, to have sexual gratification. I know I wouldn't, actually been in a situation where if I were ever going to, it would have been then, and that is how I can judge them.

That is, in truth, the world the pedophiles live in. They desire children, and for that I feel sorry for the ones who answered "no" to the question I posed. Who, like all other decent people, don't RAPE PEOPLE. But to those who say "yes", they have lost all semblances of humanity in my eyes. They are no better than any other rapist, and a thousand times worse, all at the same time.

It's easy to say that you will or won't do something, but when the time
comes it takes a lot more will power to actually do than to talk about
doing. You could say that you won't jerk off ever again, but that doesn't
mean that the next day you're going to feel the same way when the time
comes. Our sexual urges are the strongest we have--next to maybe self
preservation--so strong that our entire society and culture is based
around it, and to think that you're going to easily repress them is
egotistical to say the least. Even if you could go without fulfilling your
sexual desires, they'll eventually come out in some way, and it probably
won't be sexual. Having an experience where you don't give into your
desires doesn't mean you'll be able to replicate that experience when it
arrises again, and it will, and it'll be even stronger if you repressed your
urges the first time.

.opt

Are you saying you'd *RAPE* someone to satisfy your sexual needs? Either you are, and this argument is pointless because as far as I'm concerned, you no longer exist. Or, you won't, and I don't see how an argument would be necessary. Either way, this line of discussion is moot. Now to backtrack a little.

And I know I could resist as long as necessary, or at least until I can die of old age. I also know that if given the choice of surrendering to that kind of urge, or death, I'd probably suicide bomb a terrorist training camp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Professor Unne

I read up to where you [shlup] said this and skimmed the rest:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Also, keep in mind that in the United States at least one in four females will be sexually abused

---

I quote this because I find 'sexually abused' and 1/4 to be severely insane. Are you sure it's not fiction, ore perhaps more accurately, a very VERY general definition?

I mean 1/4 women will say, for argument's sake, be approached and have physical contact made which was unwarranted and unwanted, would be more believable.

---

Rape, attempted rape, forcing a woman to give you oral or manual stimulation, blackmail/threat of death coercion into sexual activity, child molestation, or sex acts involving sticking foreign objects into them (whether or not you, yourself, are gratified sexually). I know psychology, I know these studies, and 1/4 is a *confirmed* measurement... it's probably at 1/3, when you account all the unreported acts... and it's possibly (unlikely but possible) at 1/2. Hard to believe, maybe, but true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by udsuna

Are you saying you'd *RAPE* someone to satisfy your sexual needs? Either you are, and this argument is pointless because as far as I'm concerned, you no longer exist. Or, you won't, and I don't see how an argument would be necessary. Either way, this line of discussion is moot. Now to backtrack a little.

---

You, like most of the other people who've replied in this topic, are
basically exaggerating what someone else has said to further your
argument. I obviously didn't say that, I said nobody knows what they'd
do in that situation, and to think that you're "holier than thou" in that
respect is one of the most big-headed things I've heard.

.opt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Optium

It's easy to say that you will or won't do something, but when the time comes it takes a lot more will power to actually do than to talk about doing.

---

If someone who desires to do things that will be harmful to others can't muster that will power it still is not an excuse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Optium

You, like most of the other people who've replied in this topic, are basically exaggerating what someone else has said to further your argument. I obviously didn't say that, I said nobody knows what they'd do in that situation, and to think that you're "holier than thou" in that respect is one of the most big-headed things I've heard.
.opt

---

Uh... didn't you catch the part, I know I've said it at least 2 or 3 times... where I pointed out that I have had the situation. I've had the opportunity, and I "passed" that test. Frankly, it wasn't even a "test"... that implies that I had difficulty in controlling myself. Not so. I never even considered it, outside of an intellectual hypothetical situation.

EDIT And even then, it was my concern for her well-being (getting wasted to the point of passing out after having invited several friends... not quite as wasted, all men, at that point... over to an otherwise empty house). I noted that any of them could violate her a dozen ways and she'd never know, then realized I could do the same, then promptly said "dude, that's just not cool" and left it at that.

And if this pig-headed individual can do it, any decent human can. And anyone who cannot, doesn't deserve to live. Like I said, I'd carry out my own sentance by my own hand, should I deserve it.


EDIT: Listen to shlup... shlup is good... shlup is wise... shlup believes that people should be beholden to their own actions, no matter what crybaby excuses they use.

EDIT (again): well, I've gotta go. I'll come back to read whatever disgusting excuse you try and provide for this time. Even though any excuse that might exist is about the same thing as trying to use a napkin to block the energy wake of a nuclear bomb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by udsuna

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Optium

You, like most of the other people who've replied in this topic, are basically exaggerating what someone else has said to further your argument. I obviously didn't say that, I said nobody knows what they'd do in that situation, and to think that you're "holier than thou" in that respect is one of the most big-headed things I've heard.
.opt

---

Uh... didn't you catch the part, I know I've said it at least 2 or 3 times... where I pointed out that I have had the situation. I've had the opportunity, and I "passed" that test. Frankly, it wasn't even a "test"... that implies that I had difficulty in controlling myself. Not so. I never even considered it, outside of an intellectual hypothetical situation.

---

Maybe you missed the part where I addressed that...in my first reply
to you.

Quote:

---

EDIT And even then, it was my concern for her well-being (getting wasted to the point of passing out after having invited several friends... not quite as wasted, all men, at that point... over to an otherwise empty house). I noted that any of them could violate her a dozen ways and she'd never know, then realized I could do the same, then promptly said "dude, that's just not cool" and left it at that.

And if this pig-headed individual can do it, any decent human can. And anyone who cannot, doesn't deserve to live. Like I said, I'd carry out my own sentance by my own hand, should I deserve it.

---

That was the situation where you found that you could control your
sexual desires? Sorry man, but that's not much of an accomplishment,
I'm sure almost every guy here who's been to a party has been in that
situation and most have probably gotten over it. I've been in it numerous
times at a girl's house who I really had a thing for, but since I was more
sober than most of the other people there--only high, not drunk--it
turned out that I'd always end up looking out for her so that other guys
who couldn't control their urges (or worse, the ones who were at the
party for the sole purpose of finding a girl who was in that position)
wouldn't take advantage of her.

Congratulations though, you're mediocre.

Quote:

---

EDIT: Listen to shlup... shlup is good... shlup is wise... shlup believes that people should be beholden to their own actions, no matter what crybaby excuses they use.

EDIT (again): well, I've gotta go. I'll come back to read whatever disgusting excuse you try and provide for this time. Even though any excuse that might exist is about the same thing as trying to use a napkin to block the energy wake of a nuclear bomb.

---

See, the problem here is that a lot of people are still saying that others
are making excuses when that's not the case. An excuse would be
forgiving their actions due to circumstances, but that's not really the
case. I don't forgive or condone their actions. The problem is, you're all
acting as if it's the worst thing that could ever happen, when in fact
it's not. If you're going to say it is, then you're obviously mistaken since
all you need to do is look at the punishment for different crimes and
you'll see that there are worse things, according to society as a whole.
Some have said that it's worse than murder and that dealing with the
consequences of it are worse than being dead, but the question that
remains is why doesn't everyone who's been through it kill themselves?
Is it possible that dealing with the consequences of it aren't in fact
worse than death? Seems to me that's the only real reason.

.opt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Optium

See, the problem here is that a lot of people are still saying that others
are making excuses when that's not the case. An excuse would be
forgiving their actions due to circumstances, but that's not really the
case. I don't forgive or condone their actions.

---

amen
complutions are reasons - not excuses. I will not excuse a molester EVER. I do feel that to banish them from society forever is inhumain. Repeat offenders amd those found sick, whould be hospitalized no doubt.

But if you can Find a reason for an action - say the sight of blood causes you to get sexual urges - then you can possibly begin succesfully cure the victum of a sickness. But to lock the individual away - and condem him; That reflects worse on us as a society.

Kill your enemies with kindness so that you might call them friend. Although - I must admit it would be hard to call a chomo friend, to cure him of his state (thus killing the enemy) would be better than killing the man.

Religous View: Some say that the demons of the Biblical contex are these same urges. It is a veiw that does make some sence. So with these beliefs would the blame be put onto demonic ties? Dunno - just a point for some of the religiously cautious to ponder
bipper

let's try to avoid taking this argument to a personal level.

So what are you saying, Optium? All I see is reasons why we should pity child molesters as victims of themselves, in spite of the fact that it takes a lot of thought and effort to get into a situation where you're sexually abusing someone; that people who say sexual abuse is worse than death, including Ashley, are lying because otherwise they would've killed themselves; that, contrary to what probably anyone touched by this crime will tell you that stealing the innocence of a child is worse than killing someone.

The punishment isn't harsher because those who enforce the laws are like you. They don't understand. They have no comprehension of what it takes for someone to molest a child, and no comprehension of what damage it does. You're trusting some general notions and a societal ignorance rather than those who know what damage it does, knows the mind of a child molester, and even those who have experienced it. You're pretty plainly saying "Those who are ignorant to this issue understand it better than those who are very aware of it and those who have been a victim of it."

perhaps because others belive your views are clouded by anger.

I think it's more likely that yours are clouded by ignorance. I'm not angry; I'm not looking as much from the perspective of a victim as from a psychologist. I can see from the perspective of the molester as well as the victim, and I understand this topic, from what I see, far better than those who are (no matter what you may be calling them) making excuses for those who ruin the lives of children.

nobody's making excuses here. nobody is supporting child molesters. nobody thinks it's ok. And from now on, nobody's going to insult anyone else in this thread just because they disagree on how to best handle the problem.

I'm not intending to insult anyone; I'm stating that their views are a refection of their ignorance to the topic, which I believe they are and they've given me no reason to believe they're not.

There are people in this thread giving justifications for child molestationin an effort to understand it. That's what we call an "excuse." If you don't believe me hit up dictionary.com; it's definition number three. That is, to an extent where we're trying to understand the crime, good, but making allowances for them because of these excuses/justifications/reason (whichever synonym you want to use is fine) is not okay, and that's what's being suggested here by saying things like they shouldn't be jailed or they should spend less time in jail as though they're somehow not responsible for their actions is not okay.

I'm sorry if I directly insulted anyone; I don't mean to say anyone here is an ignorant person, just that I strongly believe, based on what's been said, that you're opinion is based on ignorance to this topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

So what are you saying, Optium? All I see is reasons why we should pity child molesters as victims of themselves, in spite of the fact that it takes a lot of thought and effort to get into a situation where you're sexually abusing someone;

---

Right, but a sexual urge can last a very long time, and without any
release it'll stay there. You guys keep saying that we're basically
babying child molesters and treating them like innocent people. That's
not the case, but it's understandable that it would seem that way. It's
sort of playing the devil's advocate because you are making them out
to be sub human and in fact sub organism, so the other extreme must
be taken by those debating the point or else there won't be much of a
debate.

Quote:

---

that people who say sexual abuse is worse than death, including Ashley, are lying because otherwise they would've killed themselves;

---

Yes, that's what I'm saying. However I didn't say anything about
Ashley because I didn't want it to be personal. You're the one who
played that card. I was saying it on a broad and vague level because
each individual person is...their own individual person.

Quote:

---

that, contrary to what probably anyone touched by this crime will tell you that stealing the innocence of a child is worse than killing someone.

---

I think you've worded it backwards...do you mean that I'm saying that
stealing the innocence of a child is not as bad as murder? If so, then
yes, that's what I'm saying.

Quote:

---

The punishment isn't harsher because those who enforce the laws are like you.

---

It has nothing to do with those who enforce the laws, it has to do with
those who make the laws. Those who are representatives of the people.
Those who make the laws depending on what the majority of the people
want.

Quote:

---

They don't understand. They have no comprehension of what it takes for someone to molest a child, and no comprehension of what damage it does. You're trusting some general notions and a societal ignorance rather than those who know what damage it does, knows the mind of a child molester, and even those who have experienced it.

---

Here we are back to the point of my first post in this thread. If society
is ignorant, do something about it. Debating on a forum is a good step,
but not nearly enough if it's as grave a problem as those who have
replied make it out to be.

Quote:

---

You're pretty plainly saying "Those who are ignorant to this issue understand it better than those who are very aware of it and those who have been a victim of it."

---

When did I say this? No, what I'm saying is that those who have been
victimized by it are incredibly biased. Whereas those who haven't had
any personal experience with it are biased in the other direction. What
I'm trying to find is some sort of middle ground. Is letting a child
molester go free without anything to fix the problem a good thing? Of
course not. But is torturing and killing a child molester for a crime which
society has deemed far less heinous than murder the way to go
instead? Hell no.

.opt

What I dont get is why people are taking responsiblity for other peoples actions. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Sure, maybe these people do have a disease, and maybe this disease makes them want to have sex with children. Well, you know what, whenever I see a hot chick, I think to myself "oh man, I wish I could be getting in bed with her." but just because I want to do that, does that mean im going to use force and rape her to do it? Hell no. No matter how bad I want it, im not gonna do it. Because that aint right. (Im pretty sure udsuna said something very similar.) So, even if you ignore what udsuna and I are saying, does that mean a pedophile's sexual desires are stronger then my own desires? Or, anyones desires for that matter? No, just because there desires are different, that doesnt mean theres are stronger then anyone elses. Therefore, these people are acting on instinct and impulse. And if you act on instinct and impulse, that makes you an animal. Thus, not only child molestors, but rapists, murderes, whoever acts on there own animalistic urges and scars someone for life/kills them, should be delt as you would deal with any diseased animal.

Oh yeah, and again, PEOPLE NEED TO TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. That sentence is key to life.

To Optium: I still believe that you're basing your opinion on the ignorance of the many just because they are "society," when you should be basing it on those who know more about it. Not just those who have experienced it, but experts in the field also. Those are the people who are trying to reduce ignorance and get those laws changed. I hear you saying that we should do that, but at the same time saying you're not going to listen unless everyone else does first, because you're listening to the ignorant majority.

regardless of how you feel about child molesters, having a child molester live next to a school or daycare is like having a bullimic person live next to an all-you-can-eat buffet. Horrible idea and the situation is destined for failure. Of course, bullimics have every right to live next to a restaurant. It's kind of hard for a child molester to live anywhere in free society and not be near children, but we could at least make them live a certain distance from large congregations of children.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Optium

That was the situation where you found that you could control your
sexual desires? Sorry man, but that's not much of an accomplishment,
I'm sure almost every guy here who's been to a party has been in that
situation and most have probably gotten over it. I've been in it numerous
times at a girl's house who I really had a thing for, but since I was more
sober than most of the other people there--only high, not drunk--it
turned out that I'd always end up looking out for her so that other guys
who couldn't control their urges (or worse, the ones who were at the
party for the sole purpose of finding a girl who was in that position)
wouldn't take advantage of her.

Congratulations though, you're mediocre.

---

I think you just made my point for me, thanks very much. Anyone "mediocre" is capable of resisting the urge to rape a helpless individual who cannot fight back, does not understand what's going on, even when guarenteed that they shall never be caught.

Therefor, those who go through with such depravety (every rapist and child molester) are far below "mediocre". There's your answer. Yes, pedophiles are sick, it's a disease that makes them *desire* children. But it's only desire, nothing more, nothing affects their brain and makes them less able to control themselves or resist compulsions. They are as capable of ignoring their desire as you or I (also just as capable of self-satisfaction with suitable imagination). And mediocre is all the control needed, so it's not like it should be difficult to do.

Conclusion? Obviously, while pedophiles can be good people with an illness that they control... child molesters are beyond the ken of human evil, deserving nothing, not even a quick death.

Oh, and as for "understanding"... no, I honestly don't understand what it means to be molested. Never happened to me, but it has happened to several people that I know and care about. I know that I can barely even grasp the basis of it, even intellectually... tip of the iceberg, as they say. But even that barest echo of the truth is more than enough reason to remove those who would inflict such harm from society, forever, in any way deemed convenient. Not humane, not just, simply convenient. I'll save humanity and justice for something human.

I'm all dizzy reading this thread, but I did realise lately that fetishes don't go away. They can be suppressed, and I know from personal experience that it is a doable and practical solution to controlling a sexual fetish which is too deviant to practice (whatever it is).

So in theory Pedophiles CAN control themselves, but you can't 'cure' them of it. Or if you can I don't see how. Mine are deeply rooted in my subconscious, to the point where some of it scares me. If it can be torn out of my mind, I assure you I would do it.

And I'm not even a pedophile which apparently is the worst thing anybody can be.

But anyway, I'm sort of lost reading this. What I DO know is that we have laws stopping people from performing vigilante justice for the simple reason that nobody, no matter what they do, should be stripped of all rights of being human. That is barbaric and unfair, and basically states that you, being a human which is fallible, are completely certain that a person must be forced into a mentality, or that because of an act, a person is irredeemable.

I may not be well versed in psychology and I certainly no long remember sleeping at night dreading to go to school every day for three years with only the thirty or so hours of the weekend once a week to console me from relentless bullying during a period where I should've been developing my self esteem instead of having it stomped to the ground. My brother points out that "wah wah stop bitching" about my childhood, and the only reason I don't lash back is because I did get over it. What I do know is that branding a person irredeemable isn't going to help something that won't go away. Our sexual development seems to be more nurture dependent than anything else (Shlup might say otherwise?), at least to me, so to me this type of thinking will just pursist.

I've always used the following argument for people who are extremist and want to destroy something deviant -- the easiest way to silence a complaint is to kill the complainer. To me it's as sensible as banding together and slagging all the deviants.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by udsuna

I think you just made my point for me, thanks very much. Anyone "mediocre" is capable of resisting the urge to rape a helpless individual who cannot fight back, does not understand what's going on, even when guarenteed that they shall never be caught.

Therefor, those who go through with such depravety (every rapist and child molester) are far below "mediocre". There's your answer. Yes, pedophiles are sick, it's a disease that makes them *desire* children. But it's only desire, nothing more, nothing affects their brain and makes them less able to control themselves or resist compulsions. They are as capable of ignoring their desire as you or I (also just as capable of self-satisfaction with suitable imagination). And mediocre is all the control needed, so it's not like it should be difficult to do.

Conclusion? Obviously, while pedophiles can be good people with an illness that they control... child molesters are beyond the ken of human evil, deserving nothing, not even a quick death.

Oh, and as for "understanding"... no, I honestly don't understand what it means to be molested. Never happened to me, but it has happened to several people that I know and care about. I know that I can barely even grasp the basis of it, even intellectually... tip of the iceberg, as they say. But even that barest echo of the truth is more than enough reason to remove those who would inflict such harm from society, forever, in any way deemed convenient. Not humane, not just, simply convenient. I'll save humanity and justice for something human.

---

See this is the problem we had back in the day with alcoholism. It was
seen as a problem that if you were strong enough you could get over.
Someone who couldn't get over it was seen as weak and the people
around them would usually just say "just get over it." Now we understand
that it IS an illness which can't simply be "gotten over" and we have
organizations to help, and this has made the disease treatable so that
it is less of a problem. This is what I'm suggesting should happen with
sex offenders.

Now here's the thing about your situation with your female friend. You
got over that urge no problem. But what if it were to happen again, and
what if you hadn't had an orgasm in months, the sexual urge would be
far greater than it would be on a normal day. Then what if it happened
the next day too, and the next, yet you have still been unable to realease
your sex drive. Eventually it'd come out. In some cases the person might
be irritated and blow up on someone, in other cases the person might
become depressed, and in other cases the person might give into their
sexual urge. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it happens, and without
any way to treat it it'll keep happening. Now if your only method of
treatment is to kill that person, what you've done is far from treatment.

.opt

Uh... didn't I mention something about them having their own fantasies? Dude, I swear, it's like you only skim my messages. You have no real understanding of the subject. You barely have the basic idea of the nature of things. I'd have hoped that, with some of the revelations made here, that maybe your eyes would be opened. Clearly, that has not happened. There is no cure, there is no treatment, there is no excuse, there is no reason, there is no alternative, and there should be no hesitation.

But, since you want to live in lala land. And no amount of truth is going to get through to you. Go do it. Abominatrix is absolutely right, this is the most disgusting thing that I've ever seen on this forum. You're barely any better than *they* are, don't ever speak with me again. I'm done with this thread. In fact, the entire thing should be removed from cyberspace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by udsuna

Uh... didn't I mention something about them having their own fantasies? Dude, I swear, it's like you only skim my messages. You have no real understanding of the subject. You barely have the basic idea of the nature of things. I'd have hoped that, with some of the revelations made here, that maybe your eyes would be opened. Clearly, that has not happened. There is no cure, there is no treatment, there is no excuse, there is no reason, there is no alternative, and there should be no hesitation.

But, since you want to live in lala land. And no amount of truth is going to get through to you. Go do it. Abominatrix is absolutely right, this is the most disgusting thing that I've ever seen on this forum. You're barely any better than *they* are, don't ever speak with me again.

---

Actually I've been reading all your posts, I've read all the posts in this
thread. The thing about fantasies and self pleasure is that often times
pedophelia is a fetish. Therefore they can't get off without it, so in
some cases they might NEED to watch child porn. Granted this obviously
isn't the case for everyone, but it is a problem. I'm trying to point out
that it's not a fully conscious and controllable thing, which it seems like
some here won't accept. I understand that it is often very calculated
rather than a spur of the moment thing, but sexual urges can last
hours and without any release you can find yourself doing things which
you'd never imagine yourself to do.

When you say you think I'm skimming your posts are you referring to
the last time you got annoyed because I didn't reply to your point
about having had an experience where you had proven yourself?
Because to be honest the only thing I could have said to it would have
been "what was this experience?" and out of courtesy I didn't ask that
because I figured you didn't want to go into detail...I thought if you had
wanted to go into detail you would have in the first post.

Of what things do I not have any understanding of the nature? You're
making yourself out to be holier than thou once again but you're still
calling for torture and murder. Now you say that there's no treatment,
but you're basically a pot calling a kettle black since bipper already
posted a link (http://talkleft.com/new_archives/009787.html#009787)
which disproves that, yet bipper and I are the only 2 people in this
entire thread who have actually addressed the fact that this link
so much as exists.

Now the rest of the post is basically a personal attack so I'm not going
to bother replying to that.

.opt

"Are you saying you'd *RAPE* someone to satisfy your sexual needs? Either you are, and this argument is pointless because as far as I'm concerned, you no longer exist"

udsuna are you saying you would violently kill some for revenge? Either you are, and this argument is pointless because as far as I'm concerned, you no longer exist

if there is no excuse to rape and molest there is no excuse to kill. pick one. either there are exceptions or there aren't. either way you can zip it.

"deserving nothing, not even a quick death." stop with the ignorance of humanity. if you want to stand abve these people calling them evil do not call for their slow and torturous death. otherwise you are below even them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

udsuna are you saying you would violently kill some for revenge? Either you are, and this argument is pointless because as far as I'm concerned, you no longer exist

---

Nope, I would never kill for revenge. Kill to protect innocents from being exploited by evil people, definately, but not for revenge. If there was a way to keep them alive, with a 100% guarentee that they could never possibly commit their crime again, I'd let them live. But you can't make that guarantee, and I won't take that chance.

And if you believe that violence in the name of defending the defenceless is wrong, congradulations. But I'm not that pathetically ignorant.

Oh, and I'm not being "ignorant" about humanity. Those things aren't human in any way but biology. Of course, I guess they could be used as medical test subjects for all kinds of experimental treatments. Like animal testing, only more accurate, and I wouldn't feel bad about the ones that die in the process.

Wow, Im going to stop following this thread now because it makes me sick. I feel ashamed to have contributed to it.

"I guess they could be used as medical test subjects for all kinds of experimental treatments." is that you jospeh? i thought you were dead mr mengel. but your great work lives on.

"If there was a way to keep them alive, with a 100% guarentee that they could never possibly commit their crime again, I'd let them live." i could say this for murderers, rapists, drug dealers, fraudsters.

what seperates these men from your child molester? the rapist commits the same crim but with someone older. the murderer ends the life, the drug dealers destroy lives, fraudsters steal and cripple people's livelihoods? should we kill these people to? submit them to mengel like experiments?

"Those things aren't human in any way but biology." that and that alone is all that counts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

what seperates these men from your child molester? the rapist commits the same crim but with someone older. the murderer ends the life, the drug dealers destroy lives, fraudsters steal and cripple people's livelihoods? should we kill these people to? submit them to mengel like experiments?

---

Well, depends on the severity of crime, of course. But for rapists and a considerable chunk of murderers, sure, why not? If the fear of that kind of a fate gives pause to one of these monsters, makes them hesitate, saves *JUST ONE PERSON* from them- then it is all worth it.

Plus, the advantage to medical science is beyond obvious. It's not right to do something like that to decent human beings... but these parasites that wear the same flesh as us... they're fair game. Beyond fair, just.


Yeah, and I really should quit this, too... I know I'm not going to, but I should. Listening to these freaks defending even worse freaks... it's spiritually painful.

Well I skimmed much of this..(why did you have to get a good thread going whilst I was down at state?!).

Anyways... it seems some people are saying death is worse then Rape of any kind. Now that depends on what way you look at it. I view it the same as is torture worse then death? That is very close to what it is.. cept rape doesn't always have its max bad effect(some people get over it alot easier, etc). So I view it as worse crime to commit then death.. though if I could pick which to suffer through i would pick the torture. I have this ego that says I have a strong enough Iron will to survive any type of mental test.

Rape, child molestation, etc... attacks a person's spirit and soul as well as thier body and the spirit and soul of thier friends and family.. While murder is also bad, at least it only targets the persons body though it does attack the spirit and soul of freinds and family too.

That doesn't mean I am for the killing off of them. However the time I took studying psyc stated that most psychologists aggree that once a sex offender you will almost always do it again sometime in your life.(80% chance).

That link that is posted.. is interesting.. but since it doesn't tell you what the treatment is(that or I missed it.. as I said I skimmed much of what was in this thread) nor do I recognize the source or see anything that makes it irrefutable.. it is just that.. interesting. I still trust mine more cause... well I know them to be decent sources.


I wouldn't be totally against the use of them in medical experiments as long as they followed basic rules(such as how we use lab animals now.. there are some laws to prevent some really out there stuff, though I don't know how effective they are). You see we could then possibly find a cure for them... see you gotta have an actual source to easily find a cure... and the ones that weren't in that section could be used to advance other forms of science. Course life in prison untill we can prove to the public beyond a doubt that he/she is cured would be fine as well.

do any of you know who josef mengel was? think about that what you are saying here.

this thread has been morphed into something almost as disgusting as child molestation (hyperbole) and I think we've beaten the argument to death. Cloud No 9, you should make a new thread to discuss Mengele if you like. It would be a good starting point for a new thread seeing how this one is finished.