America for the win?

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08-17-2005, 05:39 PM
Madame Adequate

America for the win?

This article may or may not have been posted on EoFF before - I have absolutely no idea what to search for to find it, and at any rate I've always been taught necro'ing threads is bad - so I thought I would put it up here for people to digest. It is quite long, and it is not perfect (He gives a slightly skewed view of the US' contribution in WW2, which was massive and significant indeed, but I don't think necessarily 'beat' facism - nonetheless, if it wasn't for the US the Russkies would have strolled right in.), but I think it's a very interesting and enlightening piece that certain people would like and certain others would benefit from reading.
08-17-2005, 05:42 PM
Rye

Mr. MILF, I am so happy that SOMEONE posted SOMETHING that's not anti-american. I sohuld leave this thread now, before the anti-american hordes come to say that the USA is pure evil and such.

America isn't perfect, but no country is. America is a nice place though.
08-17-2005, 05:55 PM
Madame Adequate

For my part, I'm glad to see a young (ie teenage) American who isn't anti-American.
08-17-2005, 06:02 PM
Sephex

This is kind of off the subject, but can you really blame young people for not having faith in the US these days? It's hard enough for me not to hate this country completely.
08-17-2005, 06:03 PM
Lindy

America is just as good or bad as any other country, it's just the fact that it's so large that the numbers are multiplied up. In relative terms, there's just as much stupidity, corruption and hopeless lack of humanity as any other country, just in absolute terms, there's more so it makes itself more apparent.

Of course then, there's just as much intelligence, compassion and charity too, just why bother focusing on the good parts when negativity is far more widespread?
08-17-2005, 06:03 PM
eestlinc

I'm not anti-American, but I am ashamed of the current administration and turned off by our consumer culture. However, the fact that America can still be such a force for good despite our many faults speaks volumes about how great the country truly is.
08-17-2005, 06:10 PM
Rye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindy

America is just as good or bad as any other country, it's just the fact that it's so large that the numbers are multiplied up. In relative terms, there's just as much stupidity, corruption and hopeless lack of humanity as any other country, just in absolute terms, there's more so it makes itself more apparent.

Of course then, there's just as much intelligence, compassion and charity too, just why bother focusing on the good parts when negativity is far more widespread?

You win.
08-17-2005, 07:35 PM
Cloud No.9

i think there us a difference between being anti-america(n) and anti-american(s).

i am the former. and it has more to do with the government and corporations than the people. who can be as charitable or as nice as they want but i will still hate what their country stands for.
08-17-2005, 07:36 PM
edczxcvbnm

Which is?
08-17-2005, 07:37 PM
tomamar04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

i think there us a difference between being anti-america(n) and anti-american(s).

i am the former. and it has more to do with the government and corporations than the people. who can be as charitable or as nice as they want but i will still hate what their country stands for.

Same here.
08-17-2005, 08:15 PM
Cloud No.9

"Which is?"

the difference is rather huge. i can say "my god noth korea is such a crap place and i loathe the idea of it." this isnt saying anything about the north korean people.
08-17-2005, 08:19 PM
tomamar04

I was saying I have nothing against American people or anything, but their government, and attitude to world affairs.
08-17-2005, 08:22 PM
eestlinc

or rather the attitude of our current administration.
08-17-2005, 08:22 PM
Mr. Mojo Risin

I disagree.

The political and the personal are inseparable. If you were to change N. Korea's politics(or lackof) than its people would change accordingly. Same here in the USA.
08-17-2005, 08:31 PM
Endless

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

"Which is?"

the difference is rather huge. i can say "my god noth korea is such a crap place and i loathe the idea of it." this isnt saying anything about the north korean people.

I understood Ed's "which is" being a question related to your "what their country stands for".
08-17-2005, 09:44 PM
Madame Adequate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endless

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

"Which is?"

the difference is rather huge. i can say "my god noth korea is such a crap place and i loathe the idea of it." this isnt saying anything about the north korean people.

I understood Ed's "which is" being a question related to your "what their country stands for".

Likewise.

Has anyone read the article? Or was it overly long and daunting?
08-17-2005, 10:00 PM
Endless

I read the first part so far, if I remember to, I'll read the rest tomorrow.
08-17-2005, 10:28 PM
Cloud No.9

oh sorry i misunderstood.

american policy. subisides farming, not signing kyoto, not obeying the human rights convetion, sabotaging the un, not repaying vietnam, lying/fighting a war on half baked evidence, executes it's citizens, still thinks it's the in the cold war with cuba, makes no move on chechnya, sudan, zimbabwe, rwanda, ugnada, ethiopia, and has only started working on a comprise treaty with palestine, supported the ira etc.
08-17-2005, 10:28 PM
eestlinc

I read the first third of it. I basically agree with it, although I think his rhetorical sweep overtakes his pinpoint accuracy. (for example, the using the Washington Post as the liberal counterpart to the Washington Times is more fitting as poetry than as fact, although I guess pretty much everything is liberal compared to the Washington Times. Regardless, the Washington Post editorial page is notoriously right-wing.)

I know plenty of people around the world don't like America, but I don't really care about the rest of the world's popular opinon of America. Likewise, I agree with President Bush that we don't need the approval of the rest of the world to take action, nor should we seek it, but I still disagree with Bush's actions invading Iraq.
08-18-2005, 02:31 AM
Madame Adequate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

oh sorry i misunderstood.

american policy. subisides farming, not signing kyoto, not obeying the human rights convetion, sabotaging the un, not repaying vietnam, lying/fighting a war on half baked evidence, executes it's citizens, still thinks it's the in the cold war with cuba, makes no move on chechnya, sudan, zimbabwe, rwanda, ugnada, ethiopia, and has only started working on a comprise treaty with palestine, supported the ira etc.

France's farming subsidies are worse, and I don't agree with subisidies any more than you do. Kyoto I'll pass, you already know my opinions on it. Nobody obeys the Human Rights convention. If you're talking about GitMo, you need to learn a few home truths and ditch the naivete. The UN deserves to be sabotaged, indeed torn apart, because it is completely ineffective. Vietnam was fought in a war. Why should reparations be paid? Nam wasn't exactly in a position to demand it.

The evidence was incomplete and the errors were in the intelligence community. The American political system saw far fewer lies about Iraq than the British one did. Executing dangerous criminals such as murderers and rapists is only unjustifiable if you are prepared to put them to hard labor instead. Cuba is Communist. The Cold War was against Communism. Is there something you are missing? If they did anything to ANY of those countries you'd be the first to turn around and complain about their evil imperialism; five years ago the exact same thing was being said about Iraq. Also, should that not be the UN's business, if they are so wonderful and the US is so evil?

Palestine has consistently proven itself to be unwilling to work towards a deal, instead expecting all their demands to be met instantly and unquestioningly, and using 12 year olds as suicide bombers when they don't get their way. The IRA was supported by private persons, and much as I hate to say it, people can fund whatever they wish to.
08-18-2005, 02:32 AM
lordblazer

Well he made some crappy generalizations. I mean. The middle calss doesn't disregard education in America. Especially if your a middle class minority int he USA. Man your parents would be driving you for success. And there is a rising percentage int he poor but the middle class just overwhealms it. The fact that the average highschool student int he Neatherlands can speak four languages is because The Netherlands boarders other European countries that speak completely different languages. Now this fact is proven. Goto texas and goto a city like Houston and only 10% of the houston population doesn't speak a second language. Houston and San Antonio is so close and heck in the state of Texas to be able to work at a McDonalds you have to learn Spanish. Otherwise the place doesn't hire you.Now seeing America being an economic power and all. And seeing how when immigrants get here they learn english and they rarely speak their native tougne to americans.(or around them as a matter of fact.) WEll lets just say this.

States that boarders Mexico have a high bilingual population... States that don't. Then they don't have a high Bilingual population. Also states that recieve immigrants and/or have a large ethnic population(ethnic neiborhood.). Now the neitherlands is small (in land mass compared to the States.). The Netherlands have to trade with its boardering countries that don't speak Dutch. Thus being bilingual in Europea isn't a problem becuase the average person is exposed to it everyday.

Other than that. This was a well written article and I agree with most of it.Yeah its too much generalistion. ..He needs to look at it in all the lifestyles in america.

and enviroments.

From teh different regions to the areas such as Urban Suburban and Rural.

but the political shape the states are in.Well its horrible.
08-18-2005, 04:53 AM
Madame Adequate

Did... did you read the article? Because he largely said exactly what you did. Indeed he gives the exact same reason for America only really having one language; if all 50 states had different languages, there'd be a lot more multilinguialism.
08-18-2005, 05:00 AM
lordblazer

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

Did... did you read the article? Because he largely said exactly what you did. Indeed he gives the exact same reason for America only really having one language; if all 50 states had different languages, there'd be a lot more multilinguialism.

yeah i had only read half way through it and iw asn't finish typing my previous post XD. My mom submitted it while iwas doing dishes lol. Yeah I read the whole thing just now and man. Thats a good article. Nice and neutral. No slant at all.
08-18-2005, 09:04 AM
Cloud No.9

"Vietnam was fought in a war. Why should reparations be paid?" because that is what you do when you lose a war and destory a country in the process. we ordered germany to do the same thing, twice.
08-18-2005, 09:36 AM
Azure Chrysanthemum

If you want to look at it, from a techical standpoint America withdrew from Vietnam because it was too costly. If they want to say that we lost (as they do with some smugness, as I understand from firsthand experiences), they're free to do so. They can even demand reparations if they want to, but they're in no position to come and take it.
08-18-2005, 09:36 AM
Endless

Vietnam wasn't a US vs Vietnam war. It was South Vietnam vs North Vietnam, with help from the United States, South Korea, Thailand, Australia, New Zealand, and the Philippines for the South and from USSR with extra support from the People's Republic of China, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, and North Korea for the North. The US didn't "lose", they withdrew in 1973 (after the Paris peace treaty), the war in Vietnam ended in 1975 after Saigon fell. Ironically, it caused a mass exodus of population of the South Vietnam to... the USA.

About Germany after WW II, most of the reparations it was ordered to pay were directed towards Russia, not the USA. Germany was supposed to pay 20 billion dollars in machines and movable goods, mainly to Soviet Union. Most of reparations stopped in 1953. Most countries never received any reparations from Germany i.e. Poland was forced to accept the end of reparations in 1953. In the end, war victims in many countries were compensated by the property of Germans, that were expelled after World War II. In the mean time, West Germany (among others) received money through the Marshall plan, and didn't have to repay all of it.
08-18-2005, 09:37 AM
Azure Chrysanthemum

And Endless is also quite correct about the exodus to America, I myself being a product of said event.
08-18-2005, 10:49 AM
lordblazer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

"Vietnam was fought in a war. Why should reparations be paid?" because that is what you do when you lose a war and destory a country in the process. we ordered germany to do the same thing, twice.

Germany went under though. Preassuring Germany started another war because it put germany in a depression which allowed someone like Hitler to get into power.(He was an opportunist and he grabbed it fast!).Which is why America at the time wanted to be neutral.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

oh sorry i misunderstood.

american policy. subisides farming, not signing kyoto, not obeying the human rights convetion, sabotaging the un, not repaying vietnam, lying/fighting a war on half baked evidence, executes it's citizens, still thinks it's the in the cold war with cuba, makes no move on chechnya, sudan, zimbabwe, rwanda, ugnada, ethiopia, and has only started working on a comprise treaty with palestine, supported the ira etc.

And no we still don't think we're int eh cold war with Cuba. WE just hate Castro :D .

BTW no one follows human right conventiona.Heck you said you'd support China over the USA (in another thread). China being one of the biggest human rights violator? Okay lol.

As for the UN.... My Canadian friend from Alberta said it better than I could.... The UN needs to be reformed. The UN needs to change big time and the corruption in the UN needs to stop!
08-18-2005, 01:26 PM
Lindy

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

Palestine has consistently proven itself to be unwilling to work towards a deal, instead expecting all their demands to be met instantly and unquestioningly, and using 12 year olds as suicide bombers when they don't get their way.

The Palestinian extremists have been doing that, most definitely NOT the government, Yasser Arafat pretty much gave in to every demand there was in order to try and protect his people.

Arafat tried his best to form a deal and prevent problems, but the Israeli government were the ones who refused to work towards any solution.

The Israelis just stole a large portion of Palestine and claimed it as their own, with the help of the UN (I think it was the UN), I'm sure if a religion claiming to be a race of people came along and just stole a portion of the town where you live, you'd be just deliriously happy, wouldn't you?

Also, there's the fact that the Palestinians are denied an army, when the Israelis have tanks, large quantities of troops, helicopters and fighter planes, and all the Palestinians have are sticks and rocks, and the ever depressing suicide bomber.

Few suicide bombers actually ARE children, but the entire intent of the bombers was to force Israelis out of what wasn't their country, and FINALLY at last the Israelis have given in and are moving out of the Gaza strip, which should see an end to most, if not all hostility.

I'm not saying suicide bombing is correct, but to an extremist in a relatively impotent country, it's all they have left in order to try and make a point.
08-18-2005, 01:32 PM
Gnostic Yevon

In general we're a pretty good country. I think we're a bit nieve at times, and give in to pie-in-the-sky thinking. We fight for freedom because we believe it will work. We think it's relatively easy for a poor person to get rich. These things don't always work out as we expect them to, but I'd rather live in an optimistic place than one that won't dare hope that things can be better.

But that isn't such a bad fault, compared to some places. Politics is naturally currupting, so even if American politicians are currupt (I won't pretend they aren't), so are the politicians of any nation.

The press is a problem, though. While you'll have a veriety of viewpoints (Conservative and Liberal), what you mostly hear is the Liberal or Conservative spin. It's the same news reported on all channels, and it isn't very deep. It seems more like they read the headlines, and then find an "analyist" with either a liberal or conservative viewpoint. Then the analyst gives the "talking points" of whatever viewpoint the station holds. Even debates are rather dull because what happens in the debate is that they have 1 Republican and 1 Democrat. Each one chosen for his ability to parrot the party line. So the show goes something like this:

Host: What do you think about (random issue)?
Republican: This is a big victory for the Bush Administration. All we have to do is stay the course.
Democrat: What this proves, once again, is that Bush is wrong about everything. If the people would elect deomcrats, everything would be perfect.

It's a mile wide and an inch deep.
08-18-2005, 03:47 PM
Madame Adequate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

"Vietnam was fought in a war. Why should reparations be paid?" because that is what you do when you lose a war and destory a country in the process. we ordered germany to do the same thing, twice.

No, that's what you do when you 'lose' a war (Which the US didn't, it was the home front where problems were.) and the enemy has the capacity to force reparations out of you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindy

The Israelis just stole a large portion of Palestine and claimed it as their own, with the help of the UN (I think it was the UN), I'm sure if a religion claiming to be a race of people came along and just stole a portion of the town where you live, you'd be just deliriously happy, wouldn't you?

The UK. And sorry, but the largest obstacles to peace have been the Palestinians. Are the Israelis free from blame? No. Have they been saints? No. But they've made concession after concession which have been resolutely rejected by the terrorist Arafat - note that now he is gone, things are actually happening - even when they offered basically 95% of what the Palestinians were demanding.
08-18-2005, 04:12 PM
ShunNakamura

I'm My own MILF does bring up a point. I recall reading about that.. though I thought most of it was in the past(the 95% anyways... the palestinians still wanted thier way or the highway.. but didn't think isralialies had given in 95% cept on one or two occasions early on(or close enough) Then again I ain't highly read on this issue so I could be wrong).

However, the Isralelies aren't innocent from not cooporating.

One of my teachers was a big Clinton fan due to the fact that he said Clinton had gotten closer then most at solving the issue... never did solve it though.

But Asafrat is gone? hmm.. the guy rubbed me the wrong way anyways.
08-18-2005, 07:56 PM
Cloud No.9

"No, that's what you do when you 'lose' a war (Which the US didn't, it was the home front where problems were.) and the enemy has the capacity to force reparations out of you."

so it's totally okay for america to destroy a country, poisin it's people and land, kill of it's rainforest and leave it in a huge mess then walk away and say "well what you gonna do about it"? that's exactly why i hate america.
08-18-2005, 08:08 PM
ShunNakamura

Cloud.. how it works is this.

You lose war... you pay reprecusions.. not cuase it is right.. not cuase you want to.. but cause the "bad guys" force it out of you at gun point.

You remember what the causes of WWII were ... right? I believe all the texts I read pointed out that the large reprecusions helped lead to it. hmm.. so perhaps they are a bad thing?

In war.. both parties suffer. Niether should have to pay for the other if they don't want to.. why.. cuase they BOTH suffered. Why did we pull out? The US only pulls out of something when it begins costing more then it is worth.

Live life and let go of the past. I don't believe anyone should pay such payments. Particually this long AFTER the deed has been done. In Japan we helped rebuild.. but that was right AFTER the deed. Same with others. We will help rebuild what we destroy.. but we gotta be able to do the rebuilding safely to begin with. That means we must trust our people to be safe.. you don't said your men into enemy territory. So we CAN'T help the Nams.. cause they were enemies.. and we don't trust them.
08-18-2005, 08:11 PM
Cloud No.9

but it is right. what america did to vietnam was a crime. it is an injustice to think that you can destroy a country then walk away.

and if justice does not need to be done by the people who destroy other countries and their people, bin laden should never face trial or justice.
08-18-2005, 08:20 PM
eestlinc

what about what France did to Vietnam first? What about what the entire continent of Europe did to Africa? What about what African Tribe A did to African Tribe B?
08-18-2005, 08:22 PM
Cloud No.9

it all needs to be repaid. but vietnam (we're singling out just this one great american injustice) was on a much bigger scale and so sticks out far more. ravaged a country, destroyed it's forests, poisined it's people, it's water, it's food, it's animals.
08-18-2005, 08:27 PM
Teek

You know, I used to have such respect for the Scottish educational system.
08-18-2005, 08:29 PM
Cloud No.9

you still should. it brought me up to read, learn and think for myself not believe everything my government, tv, or even teacher tells me.
08-18-2005, 08:37 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

you still should. it brought me up to read, learn and think for myself not believe everything my government, tv, or even teacher tells me.

Hrm. The school systems here didn't do that to me, either. I don't hate random countries for no apparent reason.
08-18-2005, 08:52 PM
ShunNakamura

Cloud... War is war. In war people get hurt.. damage is done. I am sure if we could have gone in and repaired vietnam without fear then we would have .. but they were our enemy.. we could not trust them.

At this time it is too late. The damage has likely already been healed. being forced to Pay after the healing is done is the same as killing for revenge. or torturing for revenge. What you are doing is hurting someone to make you feel better... when the damage from the wrong is already healed, or mostly so.

btw... I am assuming they did do somethign to help themselves and rebuild.. if they didn't then I really feel sorry.

Also does the US yet trust Vietnam? I don't think many in my area do.. so we still can't go in and help them. And throwing money never works.
08-18-2005, 09:13 PM
Lionx

From what i read, they are following some routes China did after their lift in Communism(besides name) and is rapidly recovering and becomming a good stable country and i expect Vietnam to be ok in a couple of years.

I do still feel America didnt pay because they didnt want to, even after the war for a while. I dont believe the government is that generous.
08-18-2005, 09:18 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionx

I do still feel America didnt pay because they didnt want to, even after the war for a while. I dont believe the government is that generous.

Should a government be generous?
08-18-2005, 09:22 PM
Cloud No.9

i don't hate random counties. i hate one country. and i hate it for very plain reasons.

vietnam is still struggling. it fought a very costly war both on it's popultion and economy. it has still not recovered.

people still die in vietnam from agent orange, children are still born or born with defects because of it. it's rainforests are still ravaged.
08-18-2005, 09:24 PM
Lionx

No they didnt have to be generous, after all it gave them no good to help another country and would actually make them look worst for some people thinking they are helping communists. Doesnt make me like them anymore either way.
08-18-2005, 09:28 PM
eestlinc

hatred accomplishes nothing.
08-18-2005, 09:36 PM
lordblazer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

it all needs to be repaid. but vietnam (we're singling out just this one great american injustice) was on a much bigger scale and so sticks out far more. ravaged a country, destroyed it's forests, poisined it's people, it's water, it's food, it's animals.

Thats most education.lol........ Just what your saying is too unreal.ITs not unreal in a sense htat its idealistic. Its unreal in a sense that its kinda idiotic...I mean I'm sorry that if oyu ask a 8 year old kid in the UK what the emergency number is and they say 911. I'm sorry that pisses you off that USA is the most powerful country in the world and was formed through bloodshed. I'm sorry that the USA can now defeat the UK. I'm sorry. Mainly because everytime we mention something of the USA (this apply to a lot of british users) that you have to be so hostile and talk to us like we are frekaing ants. At times you guys are jsut too over critisizing. I mean sure the UK has one of the finest police forces int eh world. The UK isn't percvect also. YOu'll say you know it. I'm sorry that most UK memebrs when they make a football thread they put (no americans allowed.). I mean WTF?!?!? we can a lot of crpa form their also. We aren't idiots. We know that more than 75% of the world calls soccer...football. The nic picking is too annoying. I mean you sound like an atheist who thinks all christains are bastards because he or she doesn't know how to deal with people and doesn't understand that being a bastard is universal.

I'm done. I don;t know what will happen to me but whatever.
08-18-2005, 09:40 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

i don't hate random counties. i hate one country. and i hate it for very plain reasons.

Bad reasons, that are half of the time incorrect or outdated (down with wall street~)
08-18-2005, 09:52 PM
Lionx

Please dont just think that what you believe are the right things and what Cloud believes is absolute bs all the time..-.- its getting old..please.

Although what Cloud said about Vietnam is a bit exxagerrated, it is true to an extent. War ravages a country, and the United States has not had a war on their home soil for a long time to see the effects of it.
08-18-2005, 09:53 PM
lordblazer

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionx

Please dont just think that what you believe are the right things and what Cloud believes is absolute bs all the time..-.- its getting old..please.

Although what Cloud said about Vietnam is a bit exxagerrated, it is true to an extent. War ravages a country, and the United States has not had a war on their home soil for a long time to see the effects of it.

Half of what cloud says I agree with. Its when she goes out and starts bashing I start to have some disagreements with her.
08-18-2005, 10:18 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionx

Please dont just think that what you believe are the right things and what Cloud believes is absolute bs all the time..-.- its getting old..please.

Uh, lionx. I have an active, open mind. I'm patient. I'm willing to hear out argumentations. I am not dogmatic or set in my ways.

But Christ, do you read half of Cloud's posts!?
08-18-2005, 10:24 PM
Lionx

I do read it, and although i do not agree completely with what he says i am pretty sick of you seemingly trying to demean him becuase of his views..or so i feel, but i like to keep that out of the thread. We might not always agree but he is entitled to his views as well and i can see why he gets them and they arent completely as insane as you might think of him to be. But i like to keep it out from derailing the thread.

My views are that America wins at some, but definetly not for the win.
08-18-2005, 10:27 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionx

I do read it, and although i do not agree completely with what he says i am pretty sick of you seemingly trying to demean him becuase of his views..or so i feel, but i like to keep that out of the thread. We might not always agree but he is entitled to his views as well and i can see why he gets them and they arent completely as insane as you might think of him to be. But i like to keep it out from derailing the thread.

It's not just me. Most of the rational people on the site tends to demean him for playing with history, altering the truth, and parading America aroudn as if we're an evil, fascist empire.

And no, he really is insane. Ask him. After all, he is a liberal.
08-18-2005, 10:33 PM
Cloud No.9

what is incorrect about american farm subsidies? trade tarriffs on africa? about the war on iraw being 1. illegal 2. being based on some of the stupidest evidence 3. being a total waste of time and human life compared to other things that could have been done with those recources. what is incorrect about america ripping up the un and kyoto? what is incorrect about the failure of the start agreements, chemical weapons agreements, nuclear non proliferation. what is incorrect about torturing foreign nationals? what is incorrect about it's companies building over and farming the amazon? what is incorrect about it's clothing companies using chinese slave labour?
08-18-2005, 10:37 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

what is incorrect about american farm subsidies?

Granted. Wrong. A product of people trying to limit economic freedoms.

Quote:

trade tarriffs on africa?

See: above.

Quote:

about the war on iraw being 1. illegal 2. being based on some of the stupidest evidence 3. being a total waste of time and human life compared to other things that could have been done with those recources.

Agreed on everything except for the war being illegal - we do not need permission from the rest of the world in order to wage our own wars.

Quote:

what is incorrect about america ripping up the un and kyoto?

The United Nations is just about the worst idea ever, and it's a slap in the face to human rights, what with Red China (and Soviet Russia) as one of the pinnacle leaders.

Quote:

what is incorrect about the failure of the start agreements, chemical weapons agreements, nuclear non proliferation.

Deterrance, but this isn't exactly an American fault, because I don't see the rest of the civilized war not owning any nukes.

Quote:

what is incorrect about torturing foreign nationals?

If it occurs, it is a fluke. I disagree with it, but we don't have "torture camps", though some stupid regulations that basically condone it by using euphisms. Half-granted.

Quote:

what is incorrect about it's companies building over and farming the amazon?

Not. American. Stop blaming America for something that all of western civilization does.

Quote:

what is incorrect about it's clothing companies using chinese slave labour?

...er, well, that one, yeah, basically incorrect. Slavery is outlawed.
08-18-2005, 10:45 PM
Cloud No.9

you need laws on warfare. that's why we hung the nazis and that's why a few americans are lucky they aren't gonna go the same way.

"Deterrance, but this isn't exactly an American fault, because I don't see the rest of the civilized war not owning any nukes." the start agreements only refer to america and russia.

it's not a fluke. it's granted by the us government. they moved the goalposts on what counts as torture to allow it. and in camp x-ray as well they have a nasty habit of holding children, a cripple and a blind guy (but granted he was blinded while in custody there which makes it better somehow).

"Not. American. Stop blaming America for something that all of western civilization does."

i thought macdonalds was american.

chinese sweatshops are as close to slavery as you can find.
08-18-2005, 10:49 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

you need laws on warfare. that's why we hung the nazis and that's why a few americans are lucky they aren't gonna go the same way.

Sure. Where did we commit an illegal act in invading Iraq? We had bad reasonings, and I disagree with the war, but it's also hard to say that the Iraqi people were happy and loving their numerous freedoms under their wonderful leader, Hussein.

Quote:

it's not a fluke. it's granted by the us government. they moved the goalposts on what counts as torture to allow it. and in camp x-ray as well they have a nasty habit of holding children, a cripple and a blind guy (but granted he was blinded while in custody there which makes it better somehow).

...you're not getting it. Obviously, I'm prettymuch against torture, but you're also being naive if you think that your country hasn't tortured anyone ever.

Quote:

i thought macdonalds was american.

No, actually. They are McDonald's. America, unlike most of the world, doesn't lay claim on their citizen's wealth and values. Blame McDonalds, not the American government.

Quote:

chinese sweatshops are as close to slavery as you can find.

Hrm. Bad working conditions, I agree. But we're not holding the Chinese people who want to work for themselves (again, their selves) for a change at gunpoint. Kick them out. It's sad that China is in that low of a state that they are willing to work for so little, but how is that America's fault?
08-18-2005, 10:57 PM
Cloud No.9

it's illegal because it was not passed by the union or in retialiation for an attack or imminent attack on america or one of it's allies, and was not to end a genocide.

i know my country has tortured people. it made a habit of it in ireland.

macdonald's while not being america itself is part of it's society and the very fact that the american government allows the company to run in the fashion that it does says alot about the administration.

same with chinese sweatshops, nike, adiddas and reebok use them. and a whole load of other companies.
08-18-2005, 11:09 PM
Teek

America's policy, while not lassiez-faire, is about the closest in the world (other than maybe Hong Kong) and it claims that the government can't step in and demand McDonalds to stop any action unless it expressly is doing something wrong.

The rainforests are outside of America's jurisdiction. For once, it's not policing the world, but again, people are complaining about it. Would you rather we assume that we own the rainforests and put up protections around it, or that we stand back?

Does McDonalds own the land it is using?
08-18-2005, 11:19 PM
Lionx

China is in a low state comming out of the WWII and facing pressure from Japan, Taiwan(which i believe should stay with China), and the US, they need to do these things. When you are down in the rut, people working in US wasnt anything that different during those times either.

Throughout all of McDonald's history there were no unions ever made. Because they would easily close down the McDonalds that would want a union, saying it didnt generate enough profit, and open one right down the corner and blacklisting those who were forming the union. Eric Schossler and his book "Fast Food Nation" depicts this very well, and is a good analogy to sweatshops. McDonalds is the most Anti-Union of any coporation. Granted Unions are not entirely fair either.

As well as US is still having that, just in other countries, how many Made in *insert country here* stuff do we have these days? Why are they doing it? Its cheap and it helps competes with other capitalists. US would actually want those nations to provide cheap stuff, imagine how expensive things would be if everything was made in USA.

Again when you are in economical trouble, and facing many enemies that want to see you dead, you WILL have these things. People dont actually know whats going on and only see what they see in the news, when it only shows one side only, the US side.

Rainforests: Not ours, let those who are in that country deal with it. They need to develop their own government and not breastfeed.
08-18-2005, 11:41 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionx

Again when you are in economical trouble, and facing many enemies that want to see you dead, you WILL have these things. People dont actually know whats going on and only see what they see in the news, when it only shows one side only, the US side.

I don't understand what you're referencing here.
08-18-2005, 11:43 PM
Lionx

Lets just say that you only get one side of the story, the story America wants you to see really. When you read newspapers and news elsewhere it varies greatly. Its best to read many sources and not just those in america or english to know whats up and form a better opinion.

That and i am pretty sure Japan, Taiwan, and US wants to see China dead despite the facades they put up.
08-18-2005, 11:46 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionx

Lets just say that you only get one side of the story, the story America wants you to see really. When you read newspapers and news elsewhere it varies greatly. Its best to read many sources and not just those in america or english to know whats up and form a better opinion.

Were you talking directly to me? I feel that you could claim the same thing about any other user. We won't mention names, will we, Cloud? And about the "dead China" thing: I think that you're being real paranoid. America clearly doesn't like China (neither do I, and I don't agree that people can be only half-free in the meantime to make China stronger or whatever your argument is) but we're not secretly hoping they'll blow off the planet, or something.

In fact, I don't think that the sensible world is even trying to put up a facade. All of the countries denounce China's communism.
08-18-2005, 11:54 PM
Lionx

There IS NO Communism in China really, besides in-name. It will be true stupidity when you let people have freedom in their situation. It will be the same as Russia and the downfall of the Soviet. Right now the country needs to be strong, try doing that if America is hated by a country stronger than them and Hawaii doesnt want to be part of the US anymore and if you dare want to reclaim it back you will be nuked. I am sure people will be great if they dont agree and show weakness. In fact thats what the US wants, and use that as an excuse to break up countries like Korea for example and the Korean War. It says differently in American textbooks of course. But i am sure many people might think differently, feel free to disagree.

What US wants is not to blow them up, but to seperate a country into weaker parts starting with Taiwan, and then they will be uncontested, while keeping up the mask of liberty and whatever else they say. It might seem very extremist to you and i expect lots of disagreement, but i stand firm and will disagree with many conservatives and the American government.

EDIT: please dont think that means i hate americans, because thats ridiculous.

But in the same way i denounce America's government. Give China 15-ish years and they can make an incredible comeback i am pretty sure.
08-19-2005, 12:02 AM
Teek

First off, don't call me one of those theocratic conservatives. I take great offense. The only thing worse than a conservative is a liberal.

I also think that America doesn't have a mask of liberty. There is corruption, but we're prety damn liberated as a general rule. I think it's foolish to proclaim that America does things anti-American. Then again, we almost had socialized health care, so what am I talking about. I don't know what the hell some American officials plans are for China, but I tend to be against slave pens like China has been (and is just now beginning to loosen), so I have to say that I am not fighting for China to be a strong nation. At least, not militarily.

I know that China's communism is beginning to slide, and perhaps in a few decades China will be a good place to live. However, it is ridiculous to proclaim that the way to score more freedom for the Chinese people is by denying them freedom in the meantime. No one is thinking China will always be a bad place, but it certainly isn't paradise now, and denying them freedom is pretty contradictory.
08-19-2005, 12:13 AM
Lionx

Yes and all Liberals are bad :rolleyes2 That and i dont really think i said you were O_o I said thats why i disagree with them.

I actually DO think American government does things that are completely opposite to what some people(and sometimes you) think. I do think theres a facade and i do see that they are trying to do those things. Those are not slave pens anyway, thats a wrong way to say it, its a way to gain money for a long time, and they are in a MUCH worst situation than America. You guys arent in a bad situation, the top of the bunch, able to say anything and everything and no one gives because theres 26,000 nukes with you guys and you dont allow anyone else to have em(bs). Hell you completely ignored the UN you guys tried to create.

Denying them freedom with the racism and hate stemming from US and Japan and Taiwan is something you seemed to be confused with. Would you want disagreement and people protesting in your country when you are weak? Hell no, the country will die like the Soviets. When you are strong you can have as much negoiation and freedom as you like. That and china doesnt have to follow the American way, the Western way is not the best and there is by no means do we have to follow anything to fit anyone's ideals to strengthen a country that has been in some trouble because of the mistake of following communism. Theres enough trouble elsewhere, and China has been pretty polite to everyone outside of China, they dont need anything internally for people to slash at more. Its a different mindset.

EDIT: If i seemed rude i apologize, i am going through alot right now and the frustrations and the current events surronding these things dont really help. So i apologize in advance if i seemed rude.
08-19-2005, 12:39 AM
Madame Adequate

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionx

When you are strong you can have as much negoiation and freedom as you like.

It is that very freedom which leads to strength. It is the massive range of different views in the US, and the freedom to try and put those views forth and make changes, which engenders the very entreprenuership and motivation which builds a strong economy and a strong society. It's the freedom to know that when you work hard, and play smart, you'll almost certainly come out on top that makes people work hard and play smart.
08-19-2005, 12:51 AM
Lionx

Nope, America is the top boss, they also have a huge saying in many things. With Iraq they invaded and set up a government to their own liking. If there should be something like that there, in China, it will most definetly fall. Not everyone wants to be ran by the US.

There is a strong society, Chinese people in general do work very hard and have the look of tough love on many of them. That and its not China limiting the trade that America said they were promoting, it is America themselves. They sold a Gasoline company for 170million(or billion forget) to Chevron rather than to China for 200million because they deemed them as at threat.

Quote:

It's the freedom to know that when you work hard, and play smart, you'll almost certainly come out on top that makes people work hard and play smart.

Its still there, the school system shows.

Again its a totally different mindset, and that when things are in ruin, you dont want people showing they are weak, they need to get their gear in line, and fast. The economy there is rapidly improving with their own way of doing things, and i am sure will near equal or surpass the US within time and hardship. Why else would US deem them a threat..?

EDIT: I still think theres alot of freedom for people there despite what people think. I feel what they are doing are fine for their current situation with the current oppositions. If China were in the same league as America(which they arent at the moment) then i might think differently. But i support them so far and thats where i stand.
08-19-2005, 01:03 PM
War Angel

Quote:

The Palestinian extremists have been doing that, most definitely NOT the government, Yasser Arafat pretty much gave in to every demand there was in order to try and protect his people.

Arafat tried his best to form a deal and prevent problems, but the Israeli government were the ones who refused to work towards any solution.

The Israelis just stole a large portion of Palestine and claimed it as their own, with the help of the UN (I think it was the UN), I'm sure if a religion claiming to be a race of people came along and just stole a portion of the town where you live, you'd be just deliriously happy, wouldn't you?

Also, there's the fact that the Palestinians are denied an army, when the Israelis have tanks, large quantities of troops, helicopters and fighter planes, and all the Palestinians have are sticks and rocks, and the ever depressing suicide bomber.

Few suicide bombers actually ARE children, but the entire intent of the bombers was to force Israelis out of what wasn't their country, and FINALLY at last the Israelis have given in and are moving out of the Gaza strip, which should see an end to most, if not all hostility.

I'm not saying suicide bombing is correct, but to an extremist in a relatively impotent country, it's all they have left in order to try and make a point.

Alright, here we go...

First - Yasser Arafat gave in to no pressure, from any side. Had he consented to even the most generous of Israeli offers (i.e, the one made in 1999, giving the Palestinians a nation comprised of 98% of all their land), he would've died by the hands of his people long before his actual natural death. The word 'compromise' has little place in Arab mentallity... they are only willing to negotiate, if they feel they have something to gain, or something to lose. Egypt had a lot to gain and much to lose, and so did Jordan. Syria is courting after Israeli for a good deal of time now. However, the Palestinians have no-where to go. The Jordanians kicked them out a good deal of time ago to fight off the early Jewish settlements in the late 1800s, and now they are stuck in a place they don't want to be in, under the rule of some pansy Jewish democracy that doesn't let them go anywhere but also prevents any real combat, and without any means of winning the fight.

So, in their desperation (which could easily be turned aside if they only accepted peace), they fight a useless war against one of the strongest and most trained armies in the world, led by one of the most war-weary (and weary in general) people there are, and nothing seems to be moving.

Now, as of late, after over 5 years of small-time war, Israel begins to endorse the 'screw them, we're getting out of here' approach. Unless Israel accepts the Palestinians into their own country (which would lead to an Arab majority, which would then in turn abolish democracy and the Jewish state, and leading to a second Holocaust), or they could drive them all out (an impractical move, since there are millions of Arabs, and not to mention it is an immoral act), the Israelis are left with little choice. Seeing as the other side isn't keen on giving up, nor is it keen on making compromises and reaching peace, Israel takes matters into its own hands, and begins to leave the Palestinian-occupied territories, places which are lawfully Israeli, but have been infested with Arabs, and are no longer worthy of Jewish settlement.

In other words - Israel is giving up, for the time being. Trusting in its long-lastingness (after all, it HAS been in the area for a good few thousands of years) and in its general sturdiness, Israel sees the Palestinian occupation of its lands as something that wouldn't last very long. Since Israel supports the Palestinians a 100 percent, by supplying them with electricity, water, food, medicine and various other aid (only it isn't aid, it's full support), the Palestinians wouldn't last very long without the 'horrible Israeli occupation', that is like oxygen for them. Israel will leave, and the Palestinians will suffocate. Who's fault is it now?

They don't want a state of their own, for that reason only. They are mostly comfortable fighting, since they have little to lose, in their eyes. Settling and reaching agreements with the humanist, Zionist scum is un-acceptable to them. They'd rather win the war... only, they cannot.

Also, I don't know what your moral values are, but in my eyes, there is no excuse for setting up children with explosives and sending them to die. Just a small anacdote, you know...
08-19-2005, 09:37 PM
lordblazer

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionx

Nope, America is the top boss, they also have a huge saying in many things. With Iraq they invaded and set up a government to their own liking. If there should be something like that there, in China, it will most definetly fall. Not everyone wants to be ran by the US.

There is a strong society, Chinese people in general do work very hard and have the look of tough love on many of them. That and its not China limiting the trade that America said they were promoting, it is America themselves. They sold a Gasoline company for 170million(or billion forget) to Chevron rather than to China for 200million because they deemed them as at threat.

Quote:

It's the freedom to know that when you work hard, and play smart, you'll almost certainly come out on top that makes people work hard and play smart.

Its still there, the school system shows.

Again its a totally different mindset, and that when things are in ruin, you dont want people showing they are weak, they need to get their gear in line, and fast. The economy there is rapidly improving with their own way of doing things, and i am sure will near equal or surpass the US within time and hardship. Why else would US deem them a threat..?

EDIT: I still think theres alot of freedom for people there despite what people think. I feel what they are doing are fine for their current situation with the current oppositions. If China were in the same league as America(which they arent at the moment) then i might think differently. But i support them so far and thats where i stand.

The problem with China is that. They are communist. They have little to no industrialization regulartions on pollution and such. I mean have oyu seen teh Yellow river? IT ain't even yellow its murky and black and nasty and icky...Also the vast gap between rich and poor.

What made USA a economic Super Power and ensured it was. The GI bill. Which generated a middle class. That is still growing.

[/QUOTE]Hrm. Bad working conditions, I agree. But we're not holding the Chinese people who want to work for themselves (again, their selves) for a change at gunpoint. Kick them out. It's sad that China is in that low of a state that they are willing to work for so little, but how is that America's fault?[/QUOTE]

BAh lol you should see what they do to illegal immigrants from mexico..

15 bucks a day for 20 hour shifts. They work over 140 hours a week and get paid next to nothing.

Quote:

China is in a low state comming out of the WWII and facing pressure from Japan, Taiwan(which i believe should stay with China), and the US, they need to do these things. When you are down in the rut, people working in US wasnt anything that different during those times either.

Taiwan shouldn't stay with China. Look lionx whya re oyu emphasizing china a lot I mean it makes you seem like one of those anime fans who thinks people in Japan live and breathes anime.
08-19-2005, 09:54 PM
Cloud No.9

well it ain't as bas as the average african wage of a dollar a day. and that is due to subsidies and trade tarriffs.
08-19-2005, 10:00 PM
lordblazer

Ok i know america treat poeple like crap. yeah if your a minority you get paid less than a white female. IF your a white female you get paid less than a white male. (this is when it comes to doing the exact same job for the exact same company.)

Bah america this and america that and americans are dumb. whatever.I'm done here .

BTW lionx Mcdonalds is jsut the world's biggest fastfood chain. They aren't a horrible company. WalMart is the worse one out their and you name one that is jsut has nothing to do with this.

The only thing Mcdonald's did was introduce a completely new diet to the chineese and other eastern countries. (Which yes if they ate it everyday they would die.)..I mean yeah its like with the Kiowa's. The Kiowa's are one of the few humans who can eat raw meat and not get sick. If I was on a Kiowa diet I would get sick and most likely die. I'm seminole lol we cook our food.
08-19-2005, 11:07 PM
Lionx

Quote:

The problem with China is that. They are communist. They have little to no industrialization regulartions on pollution and such. I mean have oyu seen teh Yellow river? IT ain't even yellow its murky and black and nasty and icky...Also the vast gap between rich and poor.

Get it through your skulls, its only communist by name, i am going to ignore anything further from that. Their buisness practices are pretty capitalistic. The Yellow River is like that for a reason, theres a reason its Yellow and using that to say its polluted is the worst example ever. Theres a reason for the sediments in the river, have you seen any other river? There are regulations for that, however they are still having trouble trying to get rid of the sediments. You know nothing about that.

Quote:

15 bucks a day for 20 hour shifts. They work over 140 hours a week and get paid next to nothing.

Wrong, they can work that much but 15 bucks over there can afford many more things than what 15 bucks can over here.

Quote:

Taiwan shouldn't stay with China. Look lionx whya re oyu emphasizing china a lot I mean it makes you seem like one of those anime fans who thinks people in Japan live and breathes anime.

And its different for all those people thinking America is for the win? Taiwan should stay with China, they look down upon their own countrymen and with guaranteed protection from the US they could leave whenever they want. Sorry they belong back in China where they should, US shouldnt dictate that at all, nosey people..

and i know a few Japanese people that dont like anime, that comment made no sense whatsoever.

Quote:

BTW lionx Mcdonalds is jsut the world's biggest fastfood chain. They aren't a horrible company. WalMart is the worse one out their and you name one that is jsut has nothing to do with this.

No they arent a horrible company, however they arent the best either, and like every other western chain they are all about profit profit profit(with the exception of In & Out because they arent huge on franchises and prefer to still uphold their quality in food). They ARE the most Anti-Union thing out there, and they have statistically the worst food quality of every fast food joint.

They also push their fast food into other countries, some whether they like it or not with protest for this american garbage. Again read the book i recommended up there. They do this in Athens even, and from the discussions i had of people going elsewhere in college, alot of places feel like America(even China at parts) with their fast food and unification of tastes made from factories that produce chemicals to unify the taste of food.

McDonalds also would push their food into schools and to do that push their food into the diet of kids which are defined early on. To remedy the potential uproar they provide the school with funds and the like, and soon everyone will be accustomed and liking the taste of McDonalds, and not only is it introducing new food, it is introducing new lifestyle as well as people (at least this person who went to India anyway) would try to be more American-ish because its the hipper thing to do. Which in a way i feel hurts culture in the country when i tis pushed into something that they do not want. Sorta like Frito Lays.
08-19-2005, 11:35 PM
Cloud No.9

aside from destroying the rain forest, killing of species of animal, filling up landfill sites, selling high fat high calorie food to kids, working against african farmers. yeah mc donalds are an okay company i guess. like hitler wasn't a bad guy.
08-20-2005, 03:52 AM
Raistlin

I was going to comment in this thread, but then I made the mistake of actually reading the replies and was almost violently sick.

"When you're strong, you can have all the freedom you want." How did the US become strong, exactly? By being the most free nation. Throughout the 19th century, the degree of a country's freedom was directly proportional to its degree of economic growth. Do you people simply ignore this?

Quote:

aside from destroying the rain forest,

First off, it's not as if America is the only country cutting down trees. Secondly, why should I care about trees?

Quote:

killing of species of animal,

See my last answer.

Quote:

filling up landfill sites,

See my first answer.

Quote:

elling high fat high calorie food to kids,

Oh ! I sold something to someone who was willing to buy it! I'm an evil evil evil person because the product may end up being physically harmful to him if he consumes it(of his own will!) instead of giving him a granola bar.

Quote:

working against african farmers.

See my first answer. And I'm sure it's an explicit part of US policy to "make sure those damn African farmers starve."

Quote:

yeah mc donalds are an okay company i guess. like hitler wasn't a bad guy.

...

Hahahahahahahahahaha

And this, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is the product of dogmatic socialist(typical western European) education(subsidized by the government, no doubt). It doesn't even deserve a reply - I rest my case.
08-20-2005, 07:50 AM
lordblazer

Quote:

Originally Posted by lionx

Quote:

The problem with China is that. They are communist. They have little to no industrialization regulartions on pollution and such. I mean have oyu seen teh Yellow river? IT ain't even yellow its murky and black and nasty and icky...Also the vast gap between rich and poor.

Get it through your skulls, its only communist by name, i am going to ignore anything further from that. Their buisness practices are pretty capitalistic. The Yellow River is like that for a reason, theres a reason its Yellow and using that to say its polluted is the worst example ever. Theres a reason for the sediments in the river, have you seen any other river? There are regulations for that, however they are still having trouble trying to get rid of the sediments. You know nothing about that.

Quote:

15 bucks a day for 20 hour shifts. They work over 140 hours a week and get paid next to nothing.

Wrong, they can work that much but 15 bucks over there can afford many more things than what 15 bucks can over here.

Quote:

Taiwan shouldn't stay with China. Look lionx whya re oyu emphasizing china a lot I mean it makes you seem like one of those anime fans who thinks people in Japan live and breathes anime.

And its different for all those people thinking America is for the win? Taiwan should stay with China, they look down upon their own countrymen and with guaranteed protection from the US they could leave whenever they want. Sorry they belong back in China where they should, US shouldnt dictate that at all, nosey people..

and i know a few Japanese people that dont like anime, that comment made no sense whatsoever.

Quote:

BTW lionx Mcdonalds is jsut the world's biggest fastfood chain. They aren't a horrible company. WalMart is the worse one out their and you name one that is jsut has nothing to do with this.

No they arent a horrible company, however they arent the best either, and like every other western chain they are all about profit profit profit(with the exception of In & Out because they arent huge on franchises and prefer to still uphold their quality in food). They ARE the most Anti-Union thing out there, and they have statistically the worst food quality of every fast food joint.

They also push their fast food into other countries, some whether they like it or not with protest for this american garbage. Again read the book i recommended up there. They do this in Athens even, and from the discussions i had of people going elsewhere in college, alot of places feel like America(even China at parts) with their fast food and unification of tastes made from factories that produce chemicals to unify the taste of food.

McDonalds also would push their food into schools and to do that push their food into the diet of kids which are defined early on. To remedy the potential uproar they provide the school with funds and the like, and soon everyone will be accustomed and liking the taste of McDonalds, and not only is it introducing new food, it is introducing new lifestyle as well as people (at least this person who went to India anyway) would try to be more American-ish because its the hipper thing to do. Which in a way i feel hurts culture in the country when i tis pushed into something that they do not want. Sorta like Frito Lays.

get it through my skulls wtf? dude you just support china because your chineese but your not even chineese by ethnic . I mean you live in a western country. so WF? Dude you live in a country were you get unparalleled freedom. HEck in china you can;t even goto a porn site!!!. Let alone post on here.

They're economy base is questionalbe(cheap labour.). THey are very questionable in human rights. They are very questionable when it comes to their enviromental laws= none.

Wrong what yeah teh mexicans can afford much for 15 bucks in mexico. But quike frankly. They don't go back to mexico!!!! now do they? Their whole family has to work incluing kids into order to keep themselves alive as residence at 15 bucks a day. Dude your being irrational on that. This is wrong. Which is why I think we need to get stricter on immigration. Becuase these american companies are exploting this BS on our own soil. I mean sur eopen a sweet shop in china kill off a few chineese kids you know help out with their population control problem. BUt when they do that crap in the USA .These companies are basicly using illegals as slave labor. Lets pit you in a job for 15 bucks a day. LEts say you did go back to mexico. Lets say you did go throught he boarder towns. Have you even been to a boarder town? Hold on ...Have you been to mexico?
08-20-2005, 08:19 AM
Lionx

Quote:

get it through my skulls wtf? dude you just support china because your chineese but your not even chineese by ethnic . I mean you live in a western country. so WF? Dude you live in a country were you get unparalleled freedom. HEck in china you can;t even goto a porn site!!!. Let alone post on here.

And you have no right to talk about things that are black by nature because you dont live in Africa where you should :rolleyes2 I have my own reasons for believing in my things and just because i get different views doesnt mean that i am some idiot. Are you saying one cannot support anything else besides the USA living here? Or there? The Internet is provided by the US if i remember right in China, that and i dont need to go to a porn site, and i see some valid reasons for doing so that really would fall on deaf ears anyway.

Quote:

They're economy base is questionalbe(cheap labour.). THey are very questionable in human rights. They are very questionable when it comes to their enviromental laws= none.

Cheap labor because they are not as financially strong as US, that and US wants them to be weak, Capitalism thrives on these cheap labor anyway, so they can compete with other companies better. If you want more expensive things go ahead. Theres a reason why things dont happen here and happen elsewhere.

I cannot read your last paragraph very well but there are similar things that happen in the US where companies bus illegal immigrants that have little education to work for them for basically slave labor. Read Fast Food Nation i really encourage it. Its a little biased sure, but if you read it past that, its something you dont see everyday in America but is there.

Again 15 bucks here does not mean 15 bucks elsewhere necessarily.

EDIT: I am a little sick of people just bashing on someone else when they have valid beliefs, sorta like how people on every thread has to nitpick(so i feel) on Cloud 9's stuff that it gets a little too much -_-; Disagree but yeah..>_> bleh i am out. It gets too depressing here to read everything and when something doesnt seem to be agreeable to another person they push it down someone else's belief -_-; /rant
08-20-2005, 02:12 PM
Madame Adequate

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordblazer

Which is why I think we need to get stricter on immigration.

Here's how you fix the problem of illegal immigrants getting exploited:

Remove the concept of being an illegal immigrant. Let anyone who wants to come, other than the obvious violent criminals and terrorists, to come and legally live and work there.
08-20-2005, 02:14 PM
Raistlin

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

Here's how you fix the problem of illegal immigrants getting exploited:

Remove the concept of being an illegal immigrant. Let anyone who wants to come, other than the obvious violent criminals and terrorists, to come and legally live and work there.

You forgot about the ones with plague. Can't have them coming in here. :p
08-21-2005, 12:01 AM
Cloud No.9

"First off, it's not as if America is the only country cutting down trees. Secondly, why should I care about trees?" it seems you care about the eco system as much as i care about the life of america and it's society.

and the american government allows macdonalds to destroy thousands of acres and hundreds of entire species of animal.

"And I'm sure it's an explicit part of US policy to "make sure those damn African farmers starve."" well with farm subsides, trade tarriffs and everything else. yes it is.

"And this, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is the product of dogmatic socialist(typical western European) education(subsidized by the government, no doubt)." and you are the product of a country which insists on starving africans, destroying the atmosphere, the rain forest etc.

and not only was my education subsidized it was paid for in full. and you call me dogmatic? you refuse to see the corruption around you.
08-21-2005, 12:22 AM
DocFrance

You know, I can see it now. A massive army of McDonald's employees rampaging through a forest with chainsaws and shotguns, chopping down all the trees and shooting any animals to extinction. Then they bring back their spoils and make hamburgers out of them. And they also put an addictive chemical (made from the pituitary glands of various endangered species, natch) in them that makes you crave McDonald's fortnightly. They also force-feed the stuff to unwilling Europeans, who like nothing more than to enjoy a traditional European meal, but can't because there's a McDonald's placed forcefully at every street corner in Paris. And they get all their money to do this from the US government, as part of the US's "kill everything that isn't us and make money from it" strategery.

McDonald's will be the New World Order.
08-21-2005, 12:23 AM
Raistlin

Quote:

"First off, it's not as if America is the only country cutting down trees. Secondly, why should I care about trees?" it seems you care about the eco system as much as i care about the life of america and it's society.

Why should I care about the ecosystem? Because it's pretty?

Quote:

and the american government allows macdonalds to destroy thousands of acres and hundreds of entire species of animal.

So? If McDonalds buys a piece of land, it's theirs to do with what they wish.

Quote:

"And I'm sure it's an explicit part of US policy to "make sure those damn African farmers starve."" well with farm subsides, trade tarriffs and everything else. yes it is.

Yep, and guess what those are? Socialist practices! Bush abolished them between the US and Central America - and you lefties bitched about it. Now you want them removed from Africa?
Yes, they should be removed, because all subsidies, tariffs, and other government interference with free trade is wrong.

Quote:

"And this, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is the product of dogmatic socialist(typical western European) education(subsidized by the government, no doubt)." and you are the product of a country which insists on starving africans, destroying the atmosphere, the rain forest etc.

I'm very anti-Bush/Republican, and I'm very anti-Democrat. There aren't many people in my country like me(I've met exactly three). There's millions like you - all as helplessly and completely brainwashed with sheer nonsense. For instance, read this, which was written by a ~~native western European~~ former anti-American. I think for myself.
1. I couldn't care less about Africans.
2. I start caring about the atmosphere when its alleged "destruction" has a direct physical impact on my life.
3. Rain forests? Same with #2.
08-21-2005, 12:32 AM
Endless

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

and the american government allows macdonalds to destroy thousands of acres and hundreds of entire species of animal.

No they don't. Various other governments do. What McDo does outside of the US has zilch, nada, niet, nothing to do with what the US lets it do or not. If it builds, in, say, Edimburgh, it's because the local officials allowed it.

Quote:

"And I'm sure it's an explicit part of US policy to "make sure those damn African farmers starve."" well with farm subsides, trade tarriffs and everything else. yes it is.

As opposed to the tariffs/subsidies the EU has in place?

Edit: Bruce Bawer (who wrote the Hudson review article) was born in New York City.
08-21-2005, 12:36 AM
Raistlin

omg Raf is siding with me. *keels over*

Cloud - Raf is a socialist(albeit an intelligent one) that has consistently disagreed with me in the past. If he's making points against you, I'd advise you to reconsider your argument. :p

EDIT:

Quote:

Edit: Bruce Bawer (who wrote the Hudson review article) was born in New York City.

He was? xD
Oh, my mistake. I thought I read somewhere in that article that he was born in Norway. Or maybe he just lived there a while. Either way, he was once anti-American. :p
08-21-2005, 12:38 AM
Cloud No.9

yeah that's right screw the ecosystem. leave just this planet with us on it. and a few pigs.

and raistlin you don't care about africans? one day maybe you will be starving and i won't give a crap either. right now you are part of the problem and in my eyes are as much to blame for a child every 3 seconds as your government and maybe one day will pay the same price.

"So? If McDonalds buys a piece of land, it's theirs to do with what they wish." no it's not. like i can't turn my back garden into a raw sewage collection point.

and rasitlin when you are neck deep in water then i hope you are sorry for what you care about.

and endless as an american company the us legal system still applies to them outside of america. adn i know eu has subsidies too which is why i refuse to buy (when possible) eu and us goods.
08-21-2005, 12:42 AM
Endless

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

and endless as an american company the us legal system still applies to them outside of america.

xD

I challenge you to find any, and I mean *any* legal text that supports your claim.
All the McDos in France follow French rules and regulations. The US laws have no value here.

Edit: quoted too much.
08-21-2005, 12:46 AM
Raistlin

Quote:

yeah that's right screw the ecosystem. leave just this planet with us on it. and a few pigs.

No, I'm not saying DESTROY EVERYTHING RAAAAA!! I'm merely wondering why we should be more concerned with a pretty forest that will benefit no one than with a productive factory which will employ 500 workers, increase the competition of that particular business(and thus lower prices, increase efficiency, increase pay, etc.), and will benefit thousands.

Quote:

and raistlin you don't care about africans? one day maybe you will be starving and i won't give a crap either.

Good, I hope not. If I'm starving, I'll go to people that care about me(I've earned their consideration), or I'll find a job, or I'll do whatever it takes - or die. However, I can't see what possible situation I'd be in where I'd starve.

Quote:

right now you are part of the problem and in my eyes are as much to blame for a child every 3 seconds as your government and maybe one day will pay the same price.

What problem? It wasn't capitalist policies which destroyed the world's economy in 1929. It wasn't capitalist ideals which killed tens of millions of Russians; it wasn't capitalist notions that enslaved and tortured millions of Jews. It wasn't a capitalist society that all the best minds fled from when they emigrated from Britain to the US in the 1960s. ALL of those were collectivist/socialist notions - which have perpetrated the worst crimes on the most people in recorded history.

Quote:

"So? If McDonalds buys a piece of land, it's theirs to do with what they wish." no it's not. like i can't turn my back garden into a raw sewage collection point.

Why not? I bought it - it's mine. Unless I sign a contract upon purchase saying otherwise.

Quote:

and rasitlin when you are neck deep in water then i hope you are sorry for what you care about.

if I am outcasted and ridiculed and thrown into the dungeons for my rationally-held convictions - I will never be sorry for what I care about.

Quote:

and endless as an american company the us legal system still applies to them outside of america. adn i know eu has subsidies too which is why i refuse to buy (when possible) eu and us goods.

Then why focus on the US and is if it's the sole perpetrator of all evil in the world?
08-21-2005, 12:52 AM
Cloud No.9

what macdonalds can and cannot purchase is even controlled by international law (which governs the rainforest as well) and morality dictates as well. take oil for food for instance. international law and domestic law both outlawed the misuse of it. it was done outwith the country's border but was still illgal.

and while i'm at it. raistlin. you don't care about africans, you don't care about the rain forest and eco system of this world, you don't care about the atmosphere. it seems that you care about one thing in this world, yourself. you are selfish and greedy man and when i ask for the death of america i ask for the death of everything you believe in. soon the word will no longer stand back and allow your beliefs to exist and if need be the vessel which contains them. the world is changing. it is smaller and people are more aware. hatred of your belief system is growing and one day maybe very soon people will take a stand and end the most corrupt, selfish, greedy and evil society that exists on this planet.
08-21-2005, 12:55 AM
Raistlin

Hahahahahahahahahaha

*cough*

I'll edit in a reply in a moment. When I stop laughing.

*ahem*

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa
08-21-2005, 12:55 AM
Madame Adequate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

what macdonalds can and cannot purchase is even controlled by international law (which governs the rainforest as well) and morality dictates as well. take oil for food for instance. international law and domestic law both outlawed the misuse of it. it was done outwith the country's border but was still illgal.

and while i'm at it. raistlin. you don't care about africans, you don't care about the rain forest and eco system of this world, you don't care about the atmosphere. it seems that you care about one thing in this world, yourself. you are selfish and greedy man and when i ask for the death of america i ask for the death of everything you believe in. soon the word will no longer stand back and allow your beliefs to exist and if need be the vessel which contains them. the world is changing. it is smaller and people are more aware. hatred of your belief system is growing and one day maybe very soon people will take a stand and end the most corrupt, selfish, greedy and evil society that exists on this planet.

I'm no fan of France, but even I wouldn't wish that on them. :(
08-21-2005, 12:59 AM
Endless

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

what macdonalds can and cannot purchase is even controlled by international law

No xD
McDonalds all around the world buy solely from local markets, because it's cheaper and more efficient in terms of storage and transport. If (and I've yet to see evidence that they do) they were to use foreign food, they would be buying it from an importing company, not doing it themselves, which means that McDo doesn't have to give a damn about international trade laws, since ultimately, they bought it locally.

As I said, I'd like to see the legal texts. Good luck finding them :p
08-21-2005, 01:04 AM
Cloud No.9

"However, I can't see what possible situation I'd be in where I'd starve." how about this you live in uganda. the lra come rape a few women, kill some men and children and burb the village so you flee. you leave your farm and your livelihood. you try to rebuild somewhere safer. but you can't get enough money to support your new farm. american subsidised imports are cheaper than what you can produce and you sloly watch your new chance destoryed. what you could have exported has heavy tarriffs on it and you can't even sell it if you were giving it away. so now you are penniless. the lra took away your home, forced you away and now you are starving. you now have no option but to die a slow and miserable death.

but of course raistlin this will never happen to you. so why care? if it can't happen to you, your self obsessed mind won't let you care.

"Why not? I bought it - it's mine." because it endangers others around you. maybe one day your neighbour will try it. but the chances are slight. so yet again why should you care?

"I will never be sorry for what I care about." and that raistlin is the problem with your selfishness. you don't care about anything but yourself. you have made that clear. feed the 5,000? save mary magdalane? you wouldn't even spit on a man on fire if he didn't directly affect you.

"Then why focus on the US and is if it's the sole perpetrator of all evil in the world?" because other countries are guilty of less.

http://www.mcspotlight.org/case/tria...ict_jud1d.html

while the judge ruled in macdonalds defence. he was over ruled later by the international courts. the case was known as the mc libel case.
08-21-2005, 01:17 AM
Endless

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

http://www.mcspotlight.org/case/tria...ict_jud1d.html

while the judge ruled in macdonalds defence. he was over ruled later by the international courts. the case was known as the mc libel case.

I think you are grossly mistaken here. You may want to look up the word "libel" in particular, so that you can see that McDo isn't bound by international trade laws or what McDo can or cannot buy, since it wasn't the subject of the trial.
08-21-2005, 01:24 AM
Cloud No.9

i know what libel means. i was referencing the evidence about the destruction of the rainforest. the quote of the judge saying that it was false has been over ruled so feel free to ignore it.

i do think the wto would be the people in charge of trade disputes and illegalities. and they would do that in any country. i am not going to sift through the wto website as it very complex and seems to just list cases. but yes there is a body that would rule over mac donalds and it would be america that the case was brought against.
08-21-2005, 01:34 AM
Endless

Thing is, McDonald's doesn't trade internationally. It doesn't export/import goods/products itself, so how would a trade dispute arise?

Also, the WTO rules over conflicts between countries about economic policies/laws put in place (such as the tariffs you talk about) by one (or more) country that affects another (or more).
08-21-2005, 01:37 AM
Raistlin

Damn you people and your rush of replies. I'm making a new reply instead of editting my last one as promised so people will see this.

Quote:

and while i'm at it. raistlin. you don't care about africans, you don't care about the rain forest and eco system of this world, you don't care about the atmosphere. it seems that you care about one thing in this world, yourself. you are selfish and greedy man and when i ask for the death of america i ask for the death of everything you believe in. soon the word will no longer stand back and allow your beliefs to exist and if need be the vessel which contains them. the world is changing. it is smaller and people are more aware. hatred of your belief system is growing and one day maybe very soon people will take a stand and end the most corrupt, selfish, greedy and evil society that exists on this planet.

haha, that still makes me chuckle. *ahem*

Quote:

and while i'm at it. raistlin. you don't care about africans

Nope.

Quote:

you don't care about the rain forest and eco system of this world

Not in and of themselves, no.

Quote:

you don't care about the atmosphere.

Not in and of itself, no.

Quote:

it seems that you care about one thing in this world, yourself.

A gross over-simplification, but more-or-less valid.

Quote:

you are selfish and greedy man

If by "selfish" you mean "thinks of oneself first and foremost" and "greedy" means "ambitious" then yes, I am.

Quote:

and when i ask for the death of america i ask for the death of everything you believe in.

I know you do, which is why I always disagree with you - because you call for the death of production, freedom, individual rights, self-respect, integrity, and many more.

Quote:

soon the word will no longer stand back and allow your beliefs to exist and if need be the vessel which contains them.

WOAH! This is the ultimate product of socialist/collectivist doctrine: the explicit need of destruction of anyone outsidde the group. Anything done towards that goal is justified - including murder. The "end justifies the means." This is what socialism ultimately offers you. Capitalism outlaws any sort of the intiation of force. Which sounds better?

Quote:

the world is changing. it is smaller and people are more aware. hatred of your belief system is growing and one day maybe very soon people will take a stand and end the most corrupt, selfish, greedy and evil society that exists on this planet.

Unfortunately, that may be true. And I would not be willing to live in such a world. I would fight to make sure that Soviet Russia is not unleashed upon the world again.

How can the rest of you socialists even look at yourself in the mirror after reading Cloud's little speech? I haven't seen a more blatant pronouncement of evil yet in this forum.
08-21-2005, 01:42 AM
Cloud No.9

"WOAH! This is the ultimate product of socialist/collectivist doctrine: the explicit need of destruction of anyone outsidde the group. Anything done towards that goal is justified - including murder. The "end justifies the means." This is what socialism ultimately offers you. Capitalism outlaws any sort of the intiation of force. Which sounds better?"

capatilism does not outlaw that sort of force. it just allows the individual to perform it. it puts power in the hands of the minority. capatilism is an economic apartheid state. where the rich minority hold the power and right to life.
08-21-2005, 02:18 AM
Raistlin

No. A truly consistently capitalist society outlaws the initiation of force, because force is the only tangible which can infringe on individual rights - on freedom.

You don't distinguish between "political/physical power" and "economic power." All socialists don't. But political/physical power(political power is backed by physical power) can be used with or without the second-party's consent. Economic power can only be held by the voluntary submission of those under that "power."
08-21-2005, 07:41 PM
Cloud No.9

money is power. if i have more money i have more influence. if someone thinks i'm destroying stuff then i can buy better lawyers than them and get them to shut up. i can buy politicians. i can own monopolies on which people are dependant.

the power to do what you want when you want regardless of the concequences to other people purely because you are rich is immoral and should be as dead as victorina laissez-faire.
08-21-2005, 09:04 PM
Teek

Those aren't products of lassiez-faire capitalism. They're not even products of a free society. In other words, we all agree, so why are you claiming that we believe it?
08-21-2005, 09:14 PM
Cloud No.9

capatilism creates a rich poor gap. one that is not even based on worth or effort. and with that gap comes a gap in power and influence. the rich hold all the cards. they are the law makers and when they break that law they control it. we do not have that.

laissez faire capatilism is based purely on explotaition. it is founded on the idea that what is good for the individual and business is good everyone (as it helps the economy). that is simply not true. explotaition is not good for anyone. the entire concept is based around the country revolving around those with power and money. the country should revolve around the people. all the people. not the businessmen.
08-21-2005, 10:11 PM
Madame Adequate

Look, Cloud, I know people in America who America considers 'poor' or even 'on the poverty line' who are as well off as any working class family here, and half the middle class as well. What did this? Capitalism. You can't blame America because the rest of the world doesn't have the same capitlism. You blame America. I blame nations which don't have capitalistic systems.
08-21-2005, 10:55 PM
ShunNakamura

In order to be in the working poor(according to the Sociology 4th edition, which used at the time minumum wage) you must make less then 10,000$ a year.

The US federal Poverty Guidelines are as follow:
# in family|Earnings
1 |$ 9,570
2 |12,830
3 |16,090
4 |19,350
5 |22,610
6 |25,870
7 |29,130
8 |32,390

For each additional
person, add 3,260

Now we had someone from ITT come up here and give us a hint on what it costs to strike out on your own. Came to about 18000$ yearly. I believe it used national average for cheap renting.. and the like. Thus the figures are probably higher then they need to be for my area but.. shrug, it was supposed to just be an idea that working at McDonalds prolly won't cut it alone, unless you really budget.

Anyways I don't see how your middle class makes less then 10000$ a year... that would be bad.
08-21-2005, 10:55 PM
Cloud No.9

i can blame america when people are starving in africa because of it. i can blame america for not signing kyoto, for destroying the power of the un, for standing back and watching genocide, for being the world's worst pollutor, i can blame it for torturing foreigners, i can blame it for breaking international law.

and capitalism.......... just seperates the rich from poor there. forces a wedge. and poor people are good for the government.
08-21-2005, 11:17 PM
Teek

Why are people starving in Africa because of America?
08-21-2005, 11:19 PM
Cloud No.9

farming subsidies and trade tarrifs. as well as debt and lack of aid.
08-21-2005, 11:24 PM
Teek

You're giving America too much credit, here. Africa is poor even without all of that. "Lack of aid", especially. Hate America because we're selfish and greedy, if you want, but you can't blame the poverty of Africa because America won't help as much as you'd like them to. That's the law of cause and effect being destroyed.
08-21-2005, 11:32 PM
Cloud No.9

it's not just about not helping.

subsidies and tarriffs actively hinder and illegitimate debt that has been paid back many times over does the same.

each cow in the eu and us recieves $2 a day in subsidies. that's more than the daily wage of half the world's population.
08-21-2005, 11:34 PM
Teek

Do you think that eliminating that would really solve the world's hunger problems?
08-21-2005, 11:38 PM
Cloud No.9

would certainly help. african farmers would recieve more money (african goods are actually far cheaper than anything we can produce here) their trade wouldn't be blocked and so african farmers would florish. and with economic growth comes education and with education comes knowledge and a thirst for justice. and when these people start with that their governments will fall.

and know we have lots of african farmers producing very cheap food. they can now feed their own country and export as well.
08-22-2005, 12:11 AM
Teek

I'm quick to point out that economic freedom is something you usally don't advocate.
08-22-2005, 12:16 AM
Madame Adequate

I'm quick to add that none of us you regularly lock horns with have ever said anything other than "Yes, trade barriers, subsidies, and the like are wrong and should be abolished."
08-22-2005, 12:26 AM
Teek

I'm pretty quick to agree.
08-22-2005, 06:29 AM
lordblazer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

i can blame america when people are starving in africa because of it. i can blame america for not signing kyoto, for destroying the power of the un, for standing back and watching genocide, for being the world's worst pollutor, i can blame it for torturing foreigners, i can blame it for breaking international law.

and capitalism.......... just seperates the rich from poor there. forces a wedge. and poor people are good for the government.

hold on blaming america because people are starving in africa due to their corrupt governments that were formed after the europeans left the afreican nations onits own. Which the european nations keep conflicts going in africa by supplying arms to different grousp there. YEah we should blame america uh?

nOW saying what the american gov. is doing to Cuba is more accurate and will defend what you say. But everyone in here even americans agree with that .
08-22-2005, 08:32 PM
Cloud No.9

well most of you agree but then people like hachifusa ask why america causes poverty. and i have to state it again. and you all have to agree again. and so we go round arguing about the fact that we all agree that american policy causes starvation in africa and is an active part of american policy and is yet another reason why i don't like that country.

"Which the european nations keep conflicts going in africa by supplying arms to different grousp there" i think you'll find america had alot to do with shiiping arms to africa as well. and at least my country responded to niger.

and i don't support economic freedom when dealing with africa. i believe that in order for a fast economic recovery which is what is required rather than a slow build that will see millions more die. we should in fact invert the trade laws to work against us. then when all countries are on a level playing field abolish them.
08-22-2005, 09:35 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

well most of you agree but then people like hachifusa ask why america causes poverty. and i have to state it again. and you all have to agree again. and so we go round arguing about the fact that we all agree that american policy causes starvation in africa and is an active part of american policy and is yet another reason why i don't like that country.

You aren't stating anything right, so you just confuse some of the less informed people through your well-known context-dropping. "Capitalism is evil and creates poverty" prettymuch is wrong.

Quote:

and i don't support economic freedom when dealing with africa.

Dude. YOU ARE. THAT'S GOOD. Destroying trade barriers and whatnot is what we all are usually trying to tell you to do, not the other way around.

WE. AGREE. DESTROY. SUBSIDIES. IT. IS. SOCIALISM.
08-22-2005, 09:38 PM
Cloud No.9

reverse trade barriers and you tip things in africa favour and allow them to grow. don't drop them make them just.

""Capitalism is evil and creates poverty" 3 billion people can't be wrong.
08-22-2005, 09:40 PM
Teek

Do you know how many of those people that are starving exist in statist governments? Need we point out that the richest societies - indeed, America has some of the "richest" poor people in the world - are consitutional republics that recognize the individual - and have a free market?

Eh, three billion people can't be wrong.
08-22-2005, 09:42 PM
lordblazer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

well most of you agree but then people like hachifusa ask why america causes poverty. and i have to state it again. and you all have to agree again. and so we go round arguing about the fact that we all agree that american policy causes starvation in africa and is an active part of american policy and is yet another reason why i don't like that country.

"Which the european nations keep conflicts going in africa by supplying arms to different grousp there" i think you'll find america had alot to do with shiiping arms to africa as well. and at least my country responded to niger.

and i don't support economic freedom when dealing with africa. i believe that in order for a fast economic recovery which is what is required rather than a slow build that will see millions more die. we should in fact invert the trade laws to work against us. then when all countries are on a level playing field abolish them.

America has nothing to do witht he poverty of africa? I mean you should really be blaming europe for most of the world's problems such as racism and such.

I mean introduce to a culture stuff they never seen yet so powerful(guns).Then you get what you got in africa.

Which is what europeans did to exploit the slaves their. America had its share in it also. But this crap once the european nations left their colonies in africa. WEll pretty much created some divisions amoungst the people in certain countries. Now thats were you get crap like Rwanda going on.

Rwanda happened because of the divisions betweent eh natives their. Created by the belgiums. Hutu's and Tutsi's. Now the Tutsi's wer ethe ones who policed the Hutu's. When the Belgiums left. They gve the power to the Hutu's. The Hutu's then began the slaughter and mistreatment of the Tutsi's.
Ok then cloud you'll have to understand that most of hte crap thats going on in africa is the fault of africans. I mean with the Axum,Egyptions,and Kus empires. They were the most advance of their times. Okay. So when the time comes for them to step up a notch and become a modern day society. They didn't wanna do it. They wanted to stop advancing and they did. Thus this crap is happening today. Just imagine if they kept on advancing? Imagine the world today. Would their even be an America? Will it have a different name?

Thats a What if on the historical stance.
08-22-2005, 09:43 PM
Cloud No.9

yeah america's rich. it exploits and starves africa. that shows just what a lovely system it is. god bless a country which is responsible for 50,000 deaths a day. america is rich. and it's unwillingness to do anything with it's richness like end starvation and poverty is why it is greedy.

you made a good argument against yourself there.
08-22-2005, 09:45 PM
Teek

"Personal responsibility" is a foreign concept to the socialist character, and the same idea is being forgotten in this Africa bull.

Let's look at logic. There is a worthwhile debate in whether or not we should send foreign aid to Africa - and it's a worthwhile debate to discuss whether said aid would help.

Blame America for Africa's starvation because we aren't helping is so beyond all logic it's appalling. The laws of cause and effect dictates that you can't see an effect before there is a cause. Blame America because it won't help Africa and you're committing this exact same fallacy.

But like I said, things such as "logic", "freedom", "responsibility" and "justice" are lost.

edit: Regarding your last post, Cloud: God Bless America, where we don't enslave our people to those who demand that we do.
08-22-2005, 09:47 PM
Cloud No.9

but we can see the causes, debt, subsidies and tarriffs. africa is starving and we know the cause.
08-22-2005, 09:48 PM
lordblazer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

yeah america's rich. it exploits and starves africa. that shows just what a lovely system it is. god bless a country which is responsible for 50,000 deaths a day. america is rich. and it's unwillingness to do anything with it's richness like end starvation and poverty is why it is greedy.

you made a good argument against yourself there.

it doesnt exploits africa we exploit china's and india. Get with the times man.....

Seriously though. Explain how do we exploit africa? I mean do ou understand that most african governments use the money that other countries give them and they do nothing with it.They just horde it.

That doesn't help poverty. WE have no responsiblity over it. Get over it cloud your in a losing arguement.
08-22-2005, 09:54 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

but we can see the causes, debt, subsidies and tarriffs. africa is starving and we know the cause.

Yep. Lack of lassiez-faire and Africa's laziness.
08-22-2005, 09:59 PM
Cloud No.9

how america exploits african farmers.

america and the eu pay farmers for what they produce. this was to encourage over production to prevent starvation after the second world war. it led to all sorts of problems in europe. we had mountains of un used corn and lakes of undrank wine. this kills off the african farming as the western markets have artifcially cheaper food. this is all paid for by the tax payer. each cow in the subsidised natiosn receives a dollar a day for being a farmed cow. so african farmers can't get started as they are undercut by these subsidized goods.

then if they can export things they make and grow, there is a huge tax on it. which keeps our farmers and businesses even more safe. so the african farmer is screwed over twice. he is constantly undercut by subsidized goods and then taxed if he does export. so he goes out of business as he just can't make a profit. and the ones that can are pricing things too high so that their own people can't afford it.

either way results in famine.

and that is why subsides and tarriffs kill 50,000 people a day.

it's not about african governments. it's about screwing over african people.
08-22-2005, 10:02 PM
Teek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

how america exploits african farmers.

america and the eu pay farmers for what they produce. this was to encourage over production to prevent starvation after the second world war. it led to all sorts of problems in europe. we had mountains of un used corn and lakes of undrank wine. this kills off the african farming as the western markets have artifcially cheaper food. this is all paid for by the tax payer. each cow in the subsidised natiosn receives a dollar a day for being a farmed cow. so african farmers can't get started as they are undercut by these subsidized goods.

then if they can export things they make and grow, there is a huge tax on it. which keeps our farmers and businesses even more safe. so the african farmer is screwed over twice. he is constantly undercut by subsidized goods and then taxed if he does export. so he goes out of business as he just can't make a profit. and the ones that can are pricing things too high so that their own people can't afford it.

either way results in famine.

and that is why subsides and tarriffs kill 50,000 people a day.

Brilliant. I agree entirely. Unfortunately, socialism is starting to seep into American policies so like this has to happen. =(

Quote:

it's not about african governments. it's about screwing over african people.

Nope. It's about them, too.
08-22-2005, 10:08 PM
Cloud No.9

african government are not affected or have any influence over trade laws. it affects the african people and is controlled by the west.
08-22-2005, 10:11 PM
Teek

No, but barbaric tribal wars/genocide and freedoms of an individual isn't helping, either.
08-22-2005, 10:18 PM
Cloud No.9

when people are fed they can learn. when people are educated they will see the world around them and demand change.
08-22-2005, 10:50 PM
Endless

For the record, in 2001, Africa+Middle-East exported $50,796,000,000 worth of products towards the NAFTA zone (USA, Canada, Mexico), which is still way less than the $95,948,000,000 it exported towards the EU. It also exported $45,152,000,000 towards Japan, too. Of course, all that pales in comparison of the EU<->EU trade ($1,275,544,000,000).

Edit: and EU->US + US->EU amounts to $406,368,000,000, roughly a third of EU->EU.
08-22-2005, 10:53 PM
Cloud No.9

eu/us to eu/us trading keeps the rich rich and the poor poor. that is what needs to be broken and that is what subsidies and tarrifs are there to protect.
08-23-2005, 12:09 AM
Madame Adequate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

eu/us to eu/us trading keeps the rich rich and the poor poor. that is what needs to be broken and that is what subsidies and tarrifs are there to protect.

Cloud, we are totally agreeing with you here. I think trade barriers are awesomely flawed mechanisms, and I believe the world, as well as the west, would benefit in the extreme from completely abolishing trade barriers, import/export laws, and subsidies. We hate this crippling socialist malaise just as much as you, but we don't believe they outweigh all the good things about western societies.

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