What is the deal with Cloud and Tifa

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08-28-2005, 08:03 AM
cookieface

What is the deal with Cloud and Tifa

Ok, so this question (probably again) What is the deal with Tifa and Cloud?

Alrighty, these might be spoilers, so leave now if you don't want that (as pointless as this is, saying it as the tradition anyways).

So was Tifa pretending to know Cloud from youth? Or was the clone issue just a lie or mistake from Hojo and Cloud was "real"? Or was Cloud "real" and was just screwed up or infused with "sephirothness"? If he was a clone, how did he get fake memories exactly, and why of the "real" Cloud? And if that's true, why did Tifa pretend and play along when he had mistaken memories? Or was she the one mentally unstable, or screwed up in the same way as Cloud? Somewhere it's mentioned that the clone came to have such memories because they were from Tifa. Is that true, if so how and why? It was times like those that I started to think Tifa was the clone, or "non-real" one. it's even said she didn't have family.

I've seen many answers before that are certain one way or another, but there is nothing clear, and no proof. That's how it's meant to be right? Unclear. Or did I miss something?
08-28-2005, 08:05 AM
G SpOtZ

i thought she had a dad, that got killed by sephiroth.
08-28-2005, 08:17 AM
cookieface

Yea, but see, that was Cloud's memory, or her's. I remember two versions of that occurence. And it didn't always go down the same way. That was with the dark haired soldier that Cloud thought he was.

Another thing, Tifa gets annihilated by a sword, how did she survive that? Clone time, or that stuff with the cells maybe? Or was that the false memory?

You see what I mean, there are like these two mind games between the plots of Tifa and Cloud or whoever, of like saying, "I'm the fake one" "no I am" "are you sure" "not really"
08-28-2005, 08:50 AM
Madonna

Tifa and Cloud knew each other as kids. They didn'tknow each other well, as Tifa hung out with her boys and Cloud kind of kept his distance, but they recognized each others' existance.

I haven't played the game in a bit, so I can't give you a good explanation for why Tifa let Cloud's story slide about his return to Nibelheim, but it's probably because she didn't want to dwell on the horrid memories of her past.

Cloud's memories are what he made them to be. He stole Zach's persona and pretended to be him, because he felt ashamed at not making it into SOLDIER. He isn't a fake; he's the real, insecure Cloud. Yay for him.

Tifa isn't a clone. No memories were garnered from her, as far as I can tell. Memories of her, I'm sure.

When Sephiroth injures Tifa, that's all he does; gives her a good slice. He didn't make half-Tifas or finely diced Tifas. He just slashed her. It's not so hard to imagine her surviving that if she got medical attention and plenty of time to heal.
08-28-2005, 09:01 AM
Masamune·1600

It's fairly convoluted, but not that difficult once you get a grasp of the material.

In the Lifestream sequence, we see the young Cloud having trouble "fitting in,"

Quote:

Kid Cloud: Tifa always used to be with this three-some.

Tifa: ...That's right.

Kid Cloud: I used to think... they were all stupid.

Tifa: What!?

Kid Cloud: You were all childish, laughing at every little stupid thing.

Tifa: But we were children, back then.

Kid Cloud: ...I know. I'm the one that was stupid. I really wanted to play with
everyone, but I was never allowed into the group. Then later... I began to think
I was different... That I was different from those immature kids. That then...
maybe...

Shadow Cloud: Just maybe, they would invite me... I thought that might happen,
so I hang around...

Kid Cloud: I was so prejudiced. And... weak.

...as well as being unjustly blamed for Tifa's injuries after they fell at the beginning of Mt. Nibel, yet blaming himself for being unable to save her.

Quote:

Kid Cloud: Tifa was in a coma for seven days. We all thought she wouldn't make
it. If only I could've saved her... I was so angry... Angry at myself for my
weakness. Ever since then, I felt Tifa blamed me... I got out of control... I'd
get into fights not even caring who it was. That was the first time I heard
about Sephiroth. If I got strong like Sephiroth, then everyone might...

Shadow Cloud: If I could get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice
me......

As a result, he attempted to join SOLDIER. However, he didn't succeed (I believe the reason he didn't get in was primarily due to the requisite JENOVA therapy, compounded by his own doubt).

Two years later, Cloud (a grunt soldier for Shinra) accompanied Sephiroth and Zack (the "black-haired member of SOLDIER) to Nibelheim. SOLDIER had been called in due to a spike in monster activity. Having not made SOLDIER, Cloud was ashamed and did not reveal his identity to Tifa. After Zack and Sephiroth investigated the reactor and found the problem (Hojo was basically responsible), Sephiroth began to question his own identity.

Quote:

Cloud: Wh... what is this!?

Sephiroth: Normal members of SOLDIER are humans that have been showered with
Mako. You're different from the others, but still human. But, what are they?
They've been exposed to a high degree of Mako, far more than you.

Cloud: ...is this some kind of monster?

Sephiroth: Exactly. And it's Hojo of Shinra that produced these monsters.
Mutated living organisms produced by Mako energy. That's what these monster's
really are.

Cloud: Normal members of SOLDIER? You mean you're different? H... hey,
Sephiroth!

Sephiroth: N...no...... ...Was I?

After repeatedly striking the capsules with the Masamune, Sephiroth continued.

Quote:

Sephiroth: ...Was I created this way too? Am I the same as all these
monsters......

Cloud: ...Sephiroth.

Sephiroth: You saw it! All of them... were humans...

Cloud: Humans!? No way!

Sephiroth: ...I've always felt since I was small... That I was different from
the others. Special, in some way. But... not like this...

After reading up on the Jenova Project in the basement of the Mansion, Sephiroth apparently came to believe that JENOVA was actually an Ancient, and that normal humans had essentially usurped Gaia from the Cetra. He proceeded to go on an utter rampage, leaving Nibelheim in flame and most of its residents (including Cloud's mother and Tifa's father) dead. Sephiroth returned to the Mt. Nibel reactor for the body of JENOVA; Cloud, Zack, and Tifa independently followed. There, both Zack and Tifa were struck down by Sephiroth when they confronted him. Both were gravely wounded by the slashes, but neither died. Cloud picked up Zack's Buster Sword and struck Sephiroth, but Seph was able to rip away the Mechanical Angel, and limped off with the head of JENOVA. Cloud (who had briefly looked after the unconscious Tifa) followed, but was impaled (apparently through the shoulder) by the Masamune. Somehow, Cloud was able to take the Masamune by the blade and hurl it and its wielder into the depths of the reactor.

At this point, Shinra began to stage a cover-up of the disaster. The town was rebuilt and populated by Shinra employees. Tifa's martial arts instructor, Zangan, was able to saver her and take her to Midgar, but Cloud, Zack, and the surviving residents (these residents were the black-garbed CLONES that followed Seph to the Reunion, by the way) were captured and used by Hojo in various JENOVA cell experiments.

Eventually, Zack and Cloud were able to escape. Zack, a member of SOLDIER, had exhibited no reaction to Hojo's Mako and JENOVA cell experimentation. Cloud, however, had reacted to the JENOVA cells, and was barely conscious.

(Taken from the Escapee Reports in the basement)

Quote:

Escapee report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

Zack and the barely aware Cloud began travelling away from Midgar. Zack related a number of his memories to Cloud. Just outside Midgar, Shinra caught up with the two and gunned down Zack. They didn't kill Cloud, however, as he was in a completely helpless state. Cloud managed to drag himself to the Train Station, where he was found by Tifa. By now, Cloud had begun to mix up his own memories with Zack's, effectively superimposing himself over Zack during the Nibelheim disaster (the final transition of memories is indicated by the flashing screen in the flashback).

Cloud firmly believed in his altered memory of the disaster, but Tifa had seen Zack, not Cloud. Hence, she was very confused as to how Cloud knew certain things when he had not been present (as far as she knew).

Eventually, the party pursued Sephiroth to the Whirlwind Maze. There, he was able to completely screw with Cloud's mind, since the superimposition of himself over Zack in the memory led to some innconsistencies. Sephiroth was thus able to convince Cloud that he was constructed five years earlier.

Quote:

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... I want to take you back to your real self. The one
who gave me the Black Materia that day... Who would have ever thought a failed
experiment would prove so useful? Hojo would die if he knew.

Cloud: Hojo!? What does he have to do with me!?

Sephiroth: Five years ago you were... ...constructed by Hojo, piece by piece,
right after Nibelheim was burnt. A puppet made up of vibrant Jenova cells, her
knowledge, and the power of the Mako. An incomplete Sephiroth-clone. Not even
given a number. ...That is your reality. Ha, ha, ha......

Convinced of this, Cloud later related his false status as a failed Sephiroth clone to Hojo further into the Maze.

Eventually, though, Tifa was able to help Cloud break through the barrier he had established and remember the truth of his identity. After this (the Lifestream incident), Cloud effectively summed up his true identity for the party.

Quote:

Cloud: I never was in SOLDIER. I made up the stories about what happened to me
five years ago, about being in SOLDIER. I left my village looking for glory, but
never made it in to SOLDIER...... I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I
heard this story from my friend Zack... And I created an illusion of myself made
up of what I had seen in my life...... And I continued to play the charade as if
it were true.

Barret: Illusion, huh...? Pretty damn strong for a llusion, I'd say.

Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own
illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm
going to live my life without pretending.

Basically, exactly what happened can be derived froman examination of the Kalm flashback, the (pivotal) Lifestream incident, and the Zack/Cloud escape flashback which can be seen on Disc 3 when the party returns to the Mansion basement.

In summation, then, Cloud did not make SOLDIER. His friend Zack did. After both were captured by Hojo, the combination of JENOVA cells and Cloud's own self-doubt effectively weakened his own awareness, allowing for him to mix up Zack's role with his own. The resulting inconsistencies were manipulated by Sephiroth, but Cloud eventually regained his memory.

As to Tifa, she didn't die from the sword stroke, and was cared for by Zangan.

I think that covers everything; I'll be glad to explain anything further if some of what I posted is confusing.
08-28-2005, 09:18 AM
Mercen-X

There is NO way you could have made it to the third disc and still miss the whole story. Why do people insist on asking other players when the game tells you these things itself. Just play through.
08-28-2005, 10:47 AM
Dreddz

The first time I beat the game I didnt really understand, so what.......
08-28-2005, 12:09 PM
TurkSlayer

For a less detailed explanation of what masamune has said, read this:

Tifa and Cloud knew each other as kids in Nibelheim. They weren't particularly close until an odd mountain incident occur, which somehow brought them closer. Cloud tells Tifa that he's going to go to Midgar and join SOLDIER. He rutrns years later along with Sephiroth and Zack, however, he is not a part of SOLDIER, just a normal soldier. He is too afriad to tell Tifa, so he hides his identity. Now, everything you see in the Inn in Calm within the first few hours of the game is not Cloud's memories, but Zack's. (This will be explained later) If you remember, there was a random soldier traveling with the group who didn't fight. That was Cloud. Anyway, Cloud's real memories are when Sephiroth burns Nibelheim. He follows him up the mountain, see's Sephiroth kill Tifa's father, takes Zack's Buster Sword, and confronts Sephiroth. Sephiroth defeats him, at first, but Cloud follows him into another part of the reactor where he stabs Cloud in the stomach, yet Cloud still manages to throw him over the bridge. Hojo later comes to collect the survivors and has them all implanted with Jenova cells. The success of the experiments is monitored, and Zack appearently shows no signs of change, while Cloud does. Zack breaks both of them out of there tanks and hitch a ride on an old man's truck. Now, if you remember, Hojo thought Cloud was a failure. In reality, he wasn't. He was a success, but Zack broke him out before he got a tatoo. This is also where we find out why he has Zack's memories. Cloud was still confused after all the experiments, and, after listening to Zack's story of what happened at Nibelheim and his plans for the future, Cloud pretty much began to think he WAS Zack. On there way to Midgar, Zack is killed and Cloud is left to die. Cloud takes Zack's Buster Sword and heads for Midgar, and that is the story.
08-28-2005, 05:27 PM
Rengori

Quote:

Originally Posted by masamune1600

It's fairly convoluted, but not that difficult once you get a grasp of the material.

In the Lifestream sequence, we see the young Cloud having trouble "fitting in,"

Quote:

Kid Cloud: Tifa always used to be with this three-some.

Tifa: ...That's right.

Kid Cloud: I used to think... they were all stupid.

Tifa: What!?

Kid Cloud: You were all childish, laughing at every little stupid thing.

Tifa: But we were children, back then.

Kid Cloud: ...I know. I'm the one that was stupid. I really wanted to play with
everyone, but I was never allowed into the group. Then later... I began to think
I was different... That I was different from those immature kids. That then...
maybe...

Shadow Cloud: Just maybe, they would invite me... I thought that might happen,
so I hang around...

Kid Cloud: I was so prejudiced. And... weak.

...as well as being unjustly blamed for Tifa's injuries after they fell at the beginning of Mt. Nibel, yet blaming himself for being unable to save her.

Quote:

Kid Cloud: Tifa was in a coma for seven days. We all thought she wouldn't make
it. If only I could've saved her... I was so angry... Angry at myself for my
weakness. Ever since then, I felt Tifa blamed me... I got out of control... I'd
get into fights not even caring who it was. That was the first time I heard
about Sephiroth. If I got strong like Sephiroth, then everyone might...

Shadow Cloud: If I could get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice
me......

As a result, he attempted to join SOLDIER. However, he didn't succeed (I believe the reason he didn't get in was primarily due to the requisite JENOVA therapy, compounded by his own doubt).

Two years later, Cloud (a grunt soldier for Shinra) accompanied Sephiroth and Zack (the "black-haired member of SOLDIER) to Nibelheim. SOLDIER had been called in due to a spike in monster activity. Having not made SOLDIER, Cloud was ashamed and did not reveal his identity to Tifa. After Zack and Sephiroth investigated the reactor and found the problem (Hojo was basically responsible), Sephiroth began to question his own identity.

Quote:

Cloud: Wh... what is this!?

Sephiroth: Normal members of SOLDIER are humans that have been showered with
Mako. You're different from the others, but still human. But, what are they?
They've been exposed to a high degree of Mako, far more than you.

Cloud: ...is this some kind of monster?

Sephiroth: Exactly. And it's Hojo of Shinra that produced these monsters.
Mutated living organisms produced by Mako energy. That's what these monster's
really are.

Cloud: Normal members of SOLDIER? You mean you're different? H... hey,
Sephiroth!

Sephiroth: N...no...... ...Was I?

After repeatedly striking the capsules with the Masamune, Sephiroth continued.

Quote:

ephiroth: ...Was I created this way too? Am I the same as all these
monsters......

Cloud: ...Sephiroth.

Sephiroth: You saw it! All of them... were humans...

Cloud: Humans!? No way!

Sephiroth: ...I've always felt since I was small... That I was different from
the others. Special, in some way. But... not like this...

After reading up on the Jenova Project in the basement of the Mansion, Sephiroth apparently came to believe that JENOVA was actually an Ancient, and that normal humans had essentially usurped Gaia from the Cetra. He proceeded to go on an utter rampage, leaving Nibelheim in flame and most of its residents (including Cloud's mother and Tifa's father) dead. Sephiroth returned to the Mt. Nibel reactor for the body of JENOVA; Cloud, Zack, and Tifa independently followed. There, both Zack and Tifa were struck down by Sephiroth when they confronted him. Both were gravely wounded by the slashes, but neither died. Cloud picked up Zack's Buster Sword and struck Sephiroth, but Seph was able to rip away the Mechanical Angel, and limped off with the head of JENOVA. Cloud (who had briefly looked after the unconscious Tifa) followed, but was impaled (apparently through the shoulder) by the Masamune. Somehow, Cloud was able to take the Masamune by the blade and hurl it and its wielder into the depths of the reactor.

At this point, Shinra began to stage a cover-up of the disaster. The town was rebuilt and populated by Shinra employees. Tifa's martial arts instructor, Zangan, was able to saver her and take her to Midgar, but Cloud, Zack, and the surviving residents (these residents were the black-garbed CLONES that followed Seph to the Reunion, by the way) were captured and used by Hojo in various JENOVA cell experiments.

Eventually, Zack and Cloud were able to escape. Zack, a member of SOLDIER, had exhibited no reaction to Hojo's Mako and JENOVA cell experimentation. Cloud, however, had reacted to the JENOVA cells, and was barely conscious.

(Taken from the Escapee Reports in the basement)

Quote:

Escapee report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

Zack and the barely aware Cloud began travelling away from Midgar. Zack related a number of his memories to Cloud. Just outside Midgar, Shinra caught up with the two and gunned down Zack. They didn't kill Cloud, however, as he was in a completely helpless state. Cloud managed to drag himself to the Train Station, where he was found by Tifa. By now, Cloud had begun to mix up his own memories with Zack's, effectively superimposing himself over Zack during the Nibelheim disaster (the final transition of memories is indicated by the flashing screen in the flashback).

Cloud firmly believed in his altered memory of the disaster, but Tifa had seen Zack, not Cloud. Hence, she was very confused as to how Cloud knew certain things when he had not been present (as far as she knew).

Eventually, the party pursued Sephiroth to the Whirlwind Maze. There, he was able to completely screw with Cloud's mind, since the superimposition of himself over Zack in the memory led to some innconsistencies. Sephiroth was thus able to convince Cloud that he was constructed five years earlier.

Quote:

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... I want to take you back to your real self. The one
who gave me the Black Materia that day... Who would have ever thought a failed
experiment would prove so useful? Hojo would die if he knew.

Cloud: Hojo!? What does he have to do with me!?

Sephiroth: Five years ago you were... ...constructed by Hojo, piece by piece,
right after Nibelheim was burnt. A puppet made up of vibrant Jenova cells, her
knowledge, and the power of the Mako. An incomplete Sephiroth-clone. Not even
given a number. ...That is your reality. Ha, ha, ha......

Convinced of this, Cloud later related his false status as a failed Sephiroth clone to Hojo later on in the Maze.

Eventually, though, Tifa was able to help Cloud break through the barrier he had established and remember the truth of his identity. After this (the Lifestream incident), Cloud effectively summed up his true identity for the party.

Quote:

Cloud: I never was in SOLDIER. I made up the stories about what happened to me
five years ago, about being in SOLDIER. I left my village looking for glory, but
never made it in to SOLDIER...... I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I
heard this story from my friend Zack... And I created an illusion of myself made
up of what I had seen in my life...... And I continued to play the charade as if
it were true.

Barret: Illusion, huh...? Pretty damn strong for a llusion, I'd say.

Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own
illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm
going to live my life without pretending.

Basically, exactly what happened can be derived froman examination of the Kalm flashback, the (pivotal) Lifestream incident, and the Zack/Cloud escape flashback which can be seen on Disc 3 when the party returns to the Mansion basement.

In summation, then, Cloud did not make SOLDIER. His friend Zack did. After both were captured by Hojo, the combination of JENOVA cells and Cloud's own self-doubt effectively weakened his own awareness, allowing for him to mix up Zack's role with his own. The resulting inconsistencies were manipulated by Sephiroth, but Cloud eventually regained his memory.

As to Tifa, she didn't die from the sword stroke, and was cared for by Zangan.

I think that covers everything; I'll be glad to explain anything further if some of what I posted is confusing.

From now on you're the new Kishi.
08-30-2005, 12:34 AM
cookieface

I've heard this all before, you're not telling me plot details I don't know, that's what I was talking about. So believe me, the person who said someone missed the story, relax. I know perfectly well what was presented in the story. I re-played it recently from start to finish in a short time, and paid special attention to the story. None of what masamune wrote clears up my point.

If for some strange reason Cloud got hypnotized, the how got left out. I got just fine when he mentions the black haired soldier, Zack, was it.

So ok then, he was "the real Cloud" who knew Tifa as a kid, took off for SOLDIER, and was just a grunt who failed to make rank and then thought he was someone else for some reason? Ok, so why then are we told all over he is a clone? If the clone talk is false or lies, there's still the mysterious bond between him and Sephiroth? I'm also well aware of the JENOVA factor, and that Shinra did stuff with it. And you mention "CLONES". What are "CLONES" exactly? Not actually clones?

Does that mean that mean then, that Cloud was just some random loser grunt who got stabbed by Sephiroth, and got grabbed near-death by Hojo to be messed with JENOVA cells, then be called a clone for some reason? If not, then what?

You can't have it both ways. He's either a clone, or a disturbed guy who thought he was someone else. And that's not even counting the fact that Tifa got fatally stabbed and it's not explained how she survived. It's hinted that it was a false memory. Both versions are hinted at this, this is my point.

The memories were either real or false. Can't be both. Only one set of memories were what really happened. And I clearly see conflicting occurences during different flashbacks. And nobody ever comes out and clears things up.

Tifa acts squirrely from start to finish, possibly hinting she doesn't know the facts either. If she was the clear-minded spectator in Cloud's strange turn of events, why not come out and say exactly what happened instead of acting strange and letting Cloud suffer?

This is not discerned with any clear proof, it's just left a mystery. Either that or it's a plot hole. But I'm convinced it was intentional. But please, pay close attention to what I'm asking. Like I said, I analyzed the heck out of the plot logistics.

So, no offense to your explanations, but they're technically just as much conjecture as my own theories. Which I won't mention unless someone is intrested.
08-30-2005, 12:40 AM
bipper

I have heard that the word clone was missused there upon translation. From what I was told, clone was refering to the type of jehnova cells he got. They were cloned cells er some such.

I was also lost on this point for some time, but meh, thats the answer i got. Take it or leave it :p

Tifa was pretending not to know what to think. It urked her quite a bit though - as you see after you save the girl from Junion (the port town - sorry if the name aint right :()

Also Clouds memories were merged with zacks if I am not mistaken. Cloud contained both his andZacks memories of the events that cloud was part of. This coupled with Cloud's desire to be in Zacks rank, created the confusion.
Bipper
08-30-2005, 12:46 AM
Yoruhoshi

I comment that I have no comment.
08-30-2005, 12:59 AM
cookieface

Quote:

Originally Posted by bipper

I have heard that the word clone was missused there upon translation. From what I was told, clone was refering to the type of jehnova cells he got. They were cloned cells er some such.

heh heh. yeah, everyone has heard a lot of stuff everywhere. I know, that's what I said. proof is something else. When the creators of FF7 come up to me my face and set things straight for me, I guess that's what I will consider the story facts. Maybe. Either way, if they did that, I'd tell them they were really flaky and wobbly with plot cohesiveness.

But like I said, I think they meant it to be as it is.
08-30-2005, 01:04 AM
TheAbominatrix

From Squall of SeeD

Quote:

Perhaps the most often misunderstood matter concerning Final Fantasy VII's plot is the matter of Cloud being a Sephiroth Clone. Aside from the fact that many have misinterpreted this to mean that he was a genetic duplicate of Sephiroth, there's the fact that he is so much more often misperceived to have been a failed experiment. This is simply not the case.

Where the confusion regarding this matter arises is from Cloud and Hojo's discourse in the Northern Crater before Meteor is summoned:

Hojo
"Ha, ha, ha... this is perfect!!!"
"It means that my experiment was a complete success!"

Hojo
"What number were you? Huh? Where is your tattoo?"

Cloud
"Professor Hojo... I don't have a number."
"You didn't give me one because I was a failed experiment."

Hojo
"What the--? You mean only a failure made it here?"

Cloud
"Professor... please give me a number. Please, Professor..."

Hojo
"Shut up, miserable failure..."

This is often cited as the evidence of Hojo considering Cloud to be a failure. What should be noted about this is that it was Cloud who told Hojo that Cloud was a failure, and, bearing his "proof" in that he didn't have a numbered tattoo, Hojo believed him. Cloud believed that he was failure based on his lack of a tattoo, and what Sephiroth had told him moments earlier:

Sephiroth
"Ha, ha, ha......"
"I want to take you back to your real self."
"The one who gave me the Black Materia that day..."
"Who would have ever thought a failed experiment would prove so useful?"
"Hojo would die if he knew."

Cloud
"Hojo!? What does he have to do with me!?"

Sephiroth
"Five years ago you were..."
"...constructed by Hojo, piece by piece, right after Nibelheim was burnt."
"A puppet made up of vibrant Jenova cells, her knowledge, and the power of Mako."
"An incomplete Sephiroth-clone. Not even given a number. ...That is your reality."

Deceived by this false information, Cloud believed that he not only wasn't a normal human being, being instead constructed from JENOVA Cells infused with Mako, but that he was a failed experiment at that. This influenced what he told Hojo, and subsequently, Hojo's feelings toward Cloud. What Cloud failed to recall at this time was that Zack broke himself and Cloud out of the Shinra Mansion before Cloud could be given a tattoo, for Cloud was not the failure at all. Zack was.

In defining who is and is not a failure in the experiment that Hojo was carrying out, one must first understand what it was that Hojo was attempting to test with the Sephiroth Clones, and how he was going about doing so. His Nibelheim experiment was conducted for the sake of testing his JENOVA Reunion Theory, it stating that even if JENOVA's Cells are seperated, those seperated pieces will eventually reunite:

(Hojo, at the Reunion)
Hojo
"You see, even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. That's what is meant by Jenova's Reunion.

In order to conduct this experiment, Hojo had the survivors of Sephiroth's massacre in Nibelheim rounded up for experimentation:

(From Zangan's letter to Tifa, as viewable on Disc 3 of the game)
"Tifa, what's happened to our town? Was it all an illusion, or just a dream? No, it was neither. I remember trying to get people out of the flames, but not having the strength... Burning with anger, I went to the reactor to kill Sephiroth."
"But he was nowhere to be found. Instead, I found you, collapsed inside. I felt saving you was far more important than going after Sephiroth. There were several others that were still alive inside, but I was only able to save you."
"As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just arriving. I recall a scientist named Hojo was in charge. He ordered the troops to gather up everyone still alive for the experiment. I didn't know what type of experiment he was talking about, but I wasn't about to let them have my dearest student."

These survivors included Cloud and Zack. Once captured, the two former members of Shin-Ra and the other survivors of Nibelheim -- minus Tifa and Zangan, of course, the former having been taken to safety by the latter -- were infused with Mako and injected with JENOVA's Cells. A body and mind that displayed no response to JENOVA's Cells would obviously be ill suited for testing the validity of the Reunion Theory, as their own will may override JENOVA's attempt to call that individual to itself. With this in mind, only the weak-willed would be suitable for the experiment, and, thus, successful. It was Cloud that had a reaction JENOVA's Cells, whereas Zack did not:

(From the Escapee Reports in the back of the Shinra Mansion's library; note that Zack is Specimen A (the former member of SOLDIER), while Cloud is Specimen B (the regular))
Escapee Report No. 2
Description of the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him.
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

Note also that in the parentheses where the two would have had numbers, there are blank spaces. They had not yet received their numbers.

What's made obvious from this -- as well as the deteriorating state of Cloud's mind after his and Zack's escape, whereas Zack seemed relatively unphased -- is that Cloud was a successful Clone, but -- at worst -- could be described as "incomplete" rather than a failure.

One final point of note to consider is that, in the moments preceding his death, Hojo himself declares Cloud to be the only Sephiroth Clone that was successful, most likely because Cloud was the only one he saw at the Reunion, those in the black cloaks having been killed moments before and their bodies cast down into the Northern Crater, most likely to be assimilated by JENOVA:

Hojo
"Every time I see you, I..."
"It pains me that I had so little scientific sense..."

Hojo
"I evaluated you as a failed project."
"But, you are the only one that succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone."
"Heh, heh, heh......... I'm even beginning to hate myself."

An interesting note to make at this point is that while in regard to Hojo's experiment "success" was measured in terms of whether or not the subject had a reaction to JENOVA, Cloud could be described as the only successful Clone in terms of actually attaining Sephiroth's abilities, as he retains his mind after the experimentation, while still reaping the benefits of the augmentation offered by the JENOVA Cell injections and Mako infusion.

The answer to the seemingly eternal question of Cloud's failure or success as a Sephiroth Clone is that he, indeed, was a success.

~ Squall of SeeD

And they did NOT mean it to be Clone as in a genetic duplicate of Sephiroth. That makes no sense, because then all the clones would look exactly like Sephiroth, while none of them do.

Squall of SeeD explains pretty much everything you could ever want to know about the game http://www.geocities.com/ff7analysis/index.html
08-30-2005, 01:26 AM
Masamune·1600

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookieface

If for some strange reason Cloud got hypnotized, the how got left out.

Cloud wasn't "hypnotized," per se. As shown above, the events in his life before he left for Midgar left him without what we might call willpower or self-confidence. After Hojo introduced the JENOVA cells into Cloud, they, in conjunction with his own weakened will, left him susceptible to Sephiroth's manipulations. This is directly stated; again, refer above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookieface

So ok then, he was "the real Cloud" who knew Tifa as a kid, took off for SOLDIER, and was just a grunt who failed to make rank and then thought he was someone else for some reason? Ok, so why then are we told all over he is a clone? If the clone talk is false or lies, there's still the mysterious bond between him and Sephiroth? I'm also well aware of the JENOVA factor, and that Shinra did stuff with it. And you mention "CLONES". What are "CLONES" exactly? Not actually clones?

In at least one sense, Cloud is a clone. Although the word departs from scientific usage in our world, in FFVII it refers to anyone given JENOVA cell therapy. Every member of SOLDIER is a Sephiroth clone, as is anyone who received JENOVA injections from Hojo following the Nibelheim disaster. "CLONES" refer specifically to certain clones (the black-garbed individuals who journey to the Reunion). The CLONES are actually the survivors of the disaster, the former residents of Nibelheim. They were given tattoos by Hojo.

The information regarding the CLONES can be found on a report in Tifa's room addressed to Hojo. It reads as follows.

Quote:

"Periodic Report to Professor Hojo"

1. Clone Activity Report

Unfortunately, no 'CLONES' have left this town this quarter. As previously reported, the 'CLONES' seem to be sensing something. But all they say is 'reunion' or 'Sephiroth' and show no other signs of activity.

2. Confidentiality Report

A total of eight people have visited this town this quarter. Fortunately, none knew about the incident five years ago. Therefore, no one knows the town was restored exactly as it was five years ago. Our staff, disguised as townspeople have improved their acting skills, and we do not report any problems at this time.

Cloud and Zack can be distinguished from the CLONES at least in the sense that neither was given a tattoo. Refer to the Escapee Report in my first post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookieface

Does that mean that mean then, that Cloud was just some random loser grunt who got stabbed by Sephiroth, and got grabbed near-death by Hojo to be messed with JENOVA cells, then be called a clone for some reason? If not, then what?

In a sense, yes, although I'd hesitate to call Cloud a random loser when he basically overcame Shinra's greatest SOLDIER. Cloud is a clone simply in the sense that he was given JENOVA cells, which is all the word really means in this context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookieface

You can't have it both ways. He's either a clone, or a disturbed guy who thought he was someone else. And that's not even counting the fact that Tifa got fatally stabbed and it's not explained how she survived. It's hinted that it was a false memory. Both versions are hinted at this, this is my point.

Obviously, you can have at it both ways, when you consider the FFVII definition of "clone" in the context of the Jenova Project. Cloud was given JENOVA therapy, which, in conjunction with his weakened will, allowed for him to essentially lose his sense of self. In that weakened state, he replaced himself with Zack (who, as a member of SOLDIER, would have represented to Cloud the achievement of a particularly important goal) in his memory of the disaster. Cloud came by these memories while travelling with Zack, as shown in the basement flashback. At the time of those travels, Cloud was obviously barely conscious, and susceptible to all that happened.

The fact that Tifa was stabbed doesn't necessarily imply that it was fatal. The wound was bad, certainly, but it didn't prove mortal (just as neither Cloud's injury nor Zack's wound proved fatal). The game addresses this several times. Zangan goes so far as to leave her a note clarifying how he rescued her when the player obtains Tifa's Final Heaven Limit manual.

Quote:

Tifa, what's happened to our town? Was it all an illusion, or just a dream?
No, it was neither. I remember trying to get people out of the flames, but not
having the strength... Burning with anger, I went to the reactor to kill
Sephiroth.

But he was nowhere to be found. Instead, I found you, collapsed inside. I felt
saving you was far more important than going after Sephiroth. There were
several others that were still alive inside, but I was only able to save you.

As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just arriving. I recall
a scientist named Hojo was in charge. He ordered the troops to gather up
everyone still alive for the experiment. I didn't know what type of experiment
he was talking about, but I wasn't about to let them have my dearest student.

Putting you on my back, I headed down the mountain to the village. I used the
Cure spell on you many times and started to head for Midgar to look for a
doctor for you. I don't like that city, but my Cure spells weren't helping.

I decided to go to Midgar to find a doctor I could trust. I'm worried about
you, but I can't settle down in one place for very long. Have you recovered
fully? Are you well?

I wonder how many years have passed since then? I just got into town again, but
I can't believe it... The whole town is back to normal, except for the strange
beings with black clothes all around...

The town reeks of Shinra, but I won't go after them. You may think I'm running
from them, but it's just that I don't want anything to do with Shinra anymore.
Feels like time is running out.

I'm sure you'll find this letter. And this gift for you. It should come in
handy. I can't even jump anymore. But I hope you continue to sharpen your
skills and remember what I taught you.

To my most precious student, From Zangan.

Zangan was Tifa's martial arts instructor. In the Kalm flashback, he can be seen trying to help after the town is set ablaze.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookieface

The memories were either real or false. Can't be both. Only one set of memories were what really happened. And I clearly see conflicting occurences during different flashbacks. And nobody ever comes out and clears things up.

The Kalm flashback was obviously false, although the only major fallacy regarding the memory involved Cloud's superimposition of himself over Zack. The Lifestream sequence at Mideel clarified what actually happened. Any missing pieces can then be filled in by the basement flashback. There's not much anyone can do to help if you're not willing to recognize that.

Quote:

Tifa acts squirrely from start to finish, possibly hinting she doesn't know the facts either. If she was the clear-minded spectator in Cloud's strange turn of events, why not come out and say exactly what happened instead of acting strange and letting Cloud suffer?

Tifa was, in all probablility, afraid of screwing with Cloud's mind, as he obviously sincerely believed his warped take on events. Further, the fact that Cloud knew most of the pertinent details regarding the disaster had to confuse the hell out of her, particularly since she didn't see that Cloud was present. Several times throughout the story, Tifa seems to want to ask Cloud the pivotal question(s), but simply can't.

Recall what Tifa says when the party sits around the Cosmo Candle, for example:

Quote:

Tifa: Cloud... Bonfires are funny, aren't they? They make you remember all sorts
of things. You know, Cloud. 5 Years ago... ......It's nothing. No, forget it.
I'm afraid to ask...

Cloud: What is it?

Tifa: It feels like... it feels like you're going far away... You really, really
are...... you... right?

I think these particular lines might help to clear away a lot of lingering doubts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookieface

This is not discerned with any clear proof, it's just left a mystery. Either that or it's a plot hole. But I'm convinced it was intentional. But please, pay close attention to what I'm asking. Like I said, I analyzed the heck out of the plot logistics.

I've shown you to the best of my ability what actually happened. You'll have to clarify your questions further if you want additional information, but rest assured that there is no mystery nor plothole concerning Cloud's identity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookieface

So, no offense to your explanations, but they're technically just as much conjecture as my own theories. Which I won't mention unless someone is intrested.

What I've offered is not mere conjecture, but the only logical conclusion that can be arrived at regarding the events in question.
08-30-2005, 01:29 AM
cookieface

The text among the game quotes is interpretation, that's all it can be. it's clear that even the quotes themselves don't specify nearly that much.

it's like:
==========================
guy1:"hahaha, I like spinach!"

guy2:"you didnt like it last year"

here we see guy1 remembering the time when his brother didn't eat the spinach because a polka dot dog flew in and licked it. it was a sunny spring day, and the birds were chirping.

this is what this quote says, pay no attention to the fact that that is never actually specified in the quote, nor in the theoretical story.
=============================

I could put up my own version (though I don't see the need for quotes). And maybe I will later, but I don't want to piss ppl off

edit: ^ that was to abominatrix
08-30-2005, 01:36 AM
cookieface

masamune, why didn't we ever see the clarifying scene or specific description of cloud escaping hojo's lab, tatoo-less, and zack being left behind to his doom?

that would have been an awesome scene.

we never saw it, because what you're describing is conjecture.

you are picking and choosing quotes as if they are proof of what's said in the entire game. the characters say A LOT of things. as clear as you claim that your statements were clearly said, I could in the same way say that it was clearly said that clone cloud's memories came from tifa's consciousness. I won't put up quotes, since I don't have them at hand, but you probably know what I'm talking about. If not, I can put them up, screenshots even. I'll stay up playing to that part if I have no saves there handy
08-30-2005, 01:36 AM
TheAbominatrix

There are, however, logical conclusions to be made from the facts provided in the game. If they game doesnt come right out and say it and thus that makes it all b.s. to you, that's fine. We're providing you with the evidence in the game and conclusions for that. If you dont believe in it, fine, but this is the common conclusion.

And the need for quotes was stated above. I didnt write it, Squall of SeeD did, so I was quoting him.
08-30-2005, 01:46 AM
cookieface

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAbominatrix

There are, however, logical conclusions to be made from the facts provided in the game. If they game doesnt come right out and say it and thus that makes it all b.s. to you, that's fine. We're providing you with the evidence in the game and conclusions for that. If you dont believe in it, fine, but this is the common conclusion.

I know, but that's the thing. The fact that they are logical conclusions is arguable, in my opinion. I can very much do the same as masamune did, and SeeD, make a quote laden article describing my fairly different take on it. And it wouldn't be any less logical, just considering a different perspective. I don't think I want to do that though, unless people really want me to. I really don't just want to antagonize anyone when they are certain something is false.

Quote:

And the need for quotes was stated above. I didnt write it, Squall of SeeD did, so I was quoting him.

Yes I know, I was only replying to the quote, not personally
08-30-2005, 01:49 AM
Masamune·1600

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookieface

masamune, why didn't we ever see the clarifying scene or specific description of cloud escaping hojo's lab, tatoo-less, and zack being left behind to his doom?

that would have been an awesome scene.

we never saw it, because what you're describing is conjecture.

you are picking and choosing quotes as if they are proof of what's said in the entire game. the characters say A LOT of things. as clear as you claim that your statements were clearly said, I could in the same way say that it was clearly said that clone cloud's memories came from tifa's consciousness. I won't put up quotes, since I don't have them at hand, but you probably know what I'm talking about. If not, I can put them up, screenshots even. I'll stay up playing to that part if I have no saves there handy

Are you serious? The "basement flashback" I repeatedly refer to shows exactly how Zack and Cloud escaped. You seem to be very confused, as Cloud (barely conscious as a result of the JENOVA therapy) only escaped through Zack's help.

In short, the flashback shows Zack escaping (and helping Cloud to escape as well). It then goes on to show the two of them riding away in the back of a yellow truck driven by an old man. It becomes fairly clear that Cloud is barely conscious. Among the topics Zack discusses are a plan for the two of them to become mercenaries (hence, why Cloud thinks of himself as a mercenary at the beginning of the game. Just outside Midgar, however, the Shinra pursuit catches up. Zack is killed while trying to resist; Cloud is left alone as he is in no apparent state to do anything.

Cloud manages to drag himself to Midgar, where Tifa finds him at the Train Station. There, Cloud first vocalizes his now confused take on the events of the past.

Returning to the basement of the Shinra Mansion on Disc 3 will allow you to view this scene. If you've never seen it (and it doesn't seem that you have), then you've missed arguably the most important piece of plot-clarifying information.

Between my explanation and Squall's quoted essay, there shouldn't be anything confusing regarding the matter.
08-30-2005, 02:16 AM
bipper

That flash back is not standard on the game. It is kinda hidden. He very well may have missed it.

The only "proof" you are gonna get on anything that is left for interpetation is from the staff themselves. The blank spaces left for us to fill in are one bonus aspect of a great game. Al great things have legacy, and leave you wanting more. FF7 did that better than any other final fantasy to date.

I was just laying what I believed down, and as I said, do what you want with it. I never said I had any proof or what notl just what I inturpeted from my experiences with a little outside influence.

Bipper
08-30-2005, 02:44 AM
cookieface

Ok, so I said that wrong, you do see the black haired guy strolling off with Cloud. Yet they say nothing of your point about what Cloud (and Tifa) actually is or was or became, or whatever. That's my only point. Were the fireworks over and he just casually went out? Was that even the real cloud still? he says nothing, he was blank, while the other guy seemed normal. What happened before that? And didn't Tifa get cut down too? And what's with the mentioning of 'Tifa having made "CLONE" cloud's memories'?? Guess that's just one of dozens of things said that mean nothing, I suppose. The only stuff that means something is what doesn't clash with our interpretation.

That black haired guy getting wasted explains nothing of what was being done to them, nor what happened to Cloud, it's just up for interpretation in a big way. Just more of Cloud acting crazy and explaining nothing.

But still, the questions remain un-substantiated.

What I'm basically saying is that a lot of what I've heard people say are possibilities, but details at that level are never specified in the game. JENOVA and the ancients are never specifically defined. In other words, as long as it doesn't deny the actual, vague stuff that is said and done in the actual game, anything could be the truth. That leaves a wide enough window.

My take on it is this: Cloud did know Tifa as a kid, and that's why he tried to save her life when he was a guard, and they did do something to him. But he technically did die from Sephiroth's sword. And possibly so did Tifa, or at least she survived by the same factor of cloud's. In other words, Cloud's body was re-created with JENOVA and his memory was discarded, yet somehow, at least in some limited way, got reintroduced to it by the presence of Tifa in the same factor, most likely through contact with the lifestream since it was in mako reactors. But the memory was in a dream state, much like how you dream of real people while asleep, it's not actually them, but they are to you. That would also explain his zack memories. JENOVA was a rogue physical entity of the ancients who had long ascended to a higher plane of existence that can't really be defined, but the existence of that plane was discernable to those in it's path by means of mako and the lifestream. But anyways, my point is, that I think cloud technically died, then a cloud was "born" out of memories in the lifestream. Either that, or Tifa was, or also. Or maybe there is no difference.
Seems like a possiblity. How does any of this go against what is in the game, and yet it's so different from other explanations?
08-30-2005, 03:24 AM
Masamune·1600

To understand what happened concerning Cloud, you basically need to incorporate three critical events. The first is the Kalm flashback, the second is the Lifestream sequence, and the third is the basement flashback. When the plot is examined with all three of these pivotal instances taken into account, the correct concept presents itself.

The Kalm flashback gives a basic framework to the Nibelheim disaster. It's incorrect, given that Cloud essentially replaces Zack, but it covers most of the events. SOLDIER is called in and deals with the monsters; Hojo's incredibly unethical experimentation comes to light; Sephiroth becomes partially aware of his origins, and goes on a destructive rampage. Cloud (in reality Zack, although the player isn't aware of that at this early stage in the game) confronts Sephiroth, and there the memory ends.

The Lifestream sequence clarifies what actually happened, as well as explores why Cloud was susceptible to Sephiroth's manipulation. We explore different aspects of Cloud's psyche in attempting to bring out his true self; we see him somewhat shut out as a child, blame himself for an injury Tifa suffers, and leave to try to join SOLDIER to become stronger...for Tifa. We later see parts of the Nibelheim disaster as it actually occurred; the SOLDIER member beside Sephiroth has black hair; this is Zack, not Cloud. We actually see a grunt soldier remove his helmet; he has blond hair, and is addressed in the flashback as "Cloud."
Events run their course, and Cloud the grunt soldier makes his way to the reactor. There, Zack and Tifa are already wounded. Zack tells Cloud to "kill Sephiroth;" Cloud picks up Zack's Buster Sword and attacks the legendary warrior. He then goes to check on Tifa, fulfilling the promise he made the night before he left for Midgar. In the mean time, the slightly wounded Sephiroth had gone further into the reactor and emerged with the head of JENOVA. Cloud pursues, is stabbed, and hurls Sephiroth into the depths of the reactor.

The basement flashback was briefly described in my previous post.

Your theories concerning Cloud and Tifa are directly contradicted by the game, especially as concerns Tifa. The reason I cited the letter by Zangan (which you may or may not have read) was to show exactly how Tifa was removed from the reactor. Not only was she cared for by Zangan, but this also makes it impossible for Hojo to have conducted any sort of JENOVA-related experimentation upon her. If JENOVA is your explanation for her survival, then your theory reaches a permanent impasse.

The game also contradicts the concept that Cloud died. He was experimented upon by Hojo, meaning his physical and living body was present. Beyond that, the entire point of the Lifestream incident was to show that Cloud was the individual Tifa knew as a child, not some figment constructed from vibrant JENOVA. Tifa goes so far as to explicitly state that the event delves into Cloud's subconscious, which is clearly his own. Further, this utterly contradicts established plot points regarding Advent Children. Advent Children SpoilerIn the movie, Cloud is known to suffer from a condition known as Geostigma, which is basically the internal conflict between a Gaian's Spirit Energy and JENOVA cells. If Cloud was built from nothing but JENOVA, then it would be impossible for him to have Geostigma.

In any case, Cloud specifically states what happened after the Lifestream incident ends.

(Aboard the Highwind, immediately after the conclusion of the Lifestream sequence.)

Quote:

Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own
illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm
going to live my life without pretending.

The whole point of dialogue citation (which bothered you in both mine and Squall's essays) is that it directly incorporates evidence from the game. The dialogue I (as well as in Squall's case) cited was no random assortment of lines; it was specifically used to convey ideas present in the game. The creators had an intent when forming the plot, and dialogue and similar evidence is a means to convey that idea. If you discard what is intentionally presented in the game, you discard the plot. It's not impossible for your theory to correspond to an alternate plot; it's just impossible as concerns the plot of FFVII, which was the point of this entire discussion.
08-30-2005, 03:45 AM
cookieface

no it is ok, i've been through this before. but anyways, 3 points in the game eliminate various other events and dialogue throughout the game. that's the reason why there's no use in quoting in my case.

I saw all of the game when I first played it years ago, playing it now, the main idea was the same now as what I remembered. I tend to focus on what is said as a whole in relation to the truth. And I don't think I was stupid and young either. I played FFVi before this one, and I was even younger, and I got that story perfectly. But anways, I'm one of those people that accept how open-ended the VII story is, others aren't and that's fine by me since I don't always necessarily consider an open-ended story to be a bad thing

It's like [FFVI SPOILER] saying for certain who Clyde/Shadow was in relation to Relm in FFVI. It's not defined no matter what anyone says.

btw, aeris wanted to "die"
08-30-2005, 09:23 AM
Mercen-X

Quote:

Originally Posted by masamune1600

Although the word departs from scientific usage in our world, in FFVII it refers to anyone given JENOVA cell therapy.

Quote:

A DNA sequence, such as a gene, that is transferred from one organism to another and replicated by genetic engineering techniques.

Not scientific enough for you?

This is the sense by which Cloud was a clone. He was injected with Jenova cells. This procedure merely made him a "representation of Hojo's experiment." Hojo's experiment being to prove that Jenova would reunite even being dismembered. In other words, Cloud's whole body, his mind, his heart, his soul were all his own. The only cloned presence within him were the Jenova cells over which Jenova/Sephiroth had undeniable control. Cloud's faulty memory and "skeletons in his closet" made his spirit weak and susceptible to Sephiroth's manipulation of him via the Jenova cells. This is why we see kid Cloud trying to stop Cloud from giving Sephiroth the Black Materia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bipper

I have heard that the word clone was misused there upon translation. From what I was told, clone was refering to the type of Jenova cells he got. They were cloned cells or some such.

Bipper

I deny this. The main characters as well as the player all misinterpret what is implied by the term, "Sephiroth clone." We were lead to believe that Hojo was attempting to create "another Sephiroth," another perfect being comprised of Jenova cells. However, this was not the case. In receiving the Jenova cells, each victim of the Nibelheim tragedy became an appendage to Sephiroth as it was Hojo's experiment to prove the Jenova's severed appendages would reunite. Hojo referred to his samples as "Sephiroth clones," however, it was not the people he was referring to. It was instead the Jenova cells residing within.

Zack had also undergone this experiment but was unaffected. He was the lost subject that Hojo had deemed a failure and whom Cloud was mistaken for by him during the "failure" mentionings in-game. Cloud only knew so much about his past.

Let me back up a bit. Following the fight against Jenova: Life, Sephiroth tells Cloud that he's a "puppet." Why? Because Sephiroth at this point is actually Jenova itself (as on the Shinra Boat, notice Sephiroth disappear as Jenova arrives, transformation, not coincidence) and it can sense the cells within Cloud which it knows it can control. Thus it knows that Cloud will reunite with the other cell carriers.

When "Sephiroth" told Cloud he was a clone of Jenova and could change his appearance based on the memory of someone else, he was not lying, he was merely incorrect. The "clones" did not possess the ability to change their appearance as they only had cells within them and were not comprised of the cells entirely. "Sephiroth," however, was actually a piece of Jenova, it thereby having the ability to mimic the form of Sephiroth, because Sephiroth was in Cloud's memories. How is this possible? Because of the cells within Cloud's body. The cells in Cloud allow Jenova access to his memories. This is why Cloud did not know things that only Tifa knew and why Sephiroth knew more about Cloud than Cloud knew of himself. Because he was not a memory of Tifa, Sephiroth was a memory of Cloud.

Tifa, however, was unaware of the events that transpired after her near-death experience. Zangan had done what he could in town as is displayed in both Cloud's memory and Sephiroth's "illusion." He then rushed to the reactor following Zack (who had already been followed by Cloud, the grunt). He was going to kill Sephiroth in his rage but didn't get there until after Sephiroth had been thrown into the Mako and Cloud lost conciousness. He found Tifa inside and rescued her (he explains in a letter later that he could not carry the others . . . could you carry three people?). On his way out, he noticed Hojo arriving and ordering the townspeople to be gathered for "the experiment."
This said, Tifa never knew that Cloud had been in Nibelheim, let alone could she confirm or deny the fate of Sephiroth or Cloud's Jenova treatments. She had been severely injured, as Zangan's letter later notes, he was indeed concerned about whether she'd survive. *Bear in mind that most of Seph's other victims were struck in the head as opposed to being sliced across the anterior (also Aeris most likely suffered major artery damage and possibly many vital organs were pierced/severed when Sephiroth stabbed her in the back.)