Is it just a game?

This is a note to all aspiring game designers: IT'S NOT JUST A GAME!!!

If you're a person who has suggested that a game producer (especially Square) would create an in-game feature just to create it without providing an in-game reason (story-wise) for why it exists, THEN YOU SHOULD NOT EVEN THINK OF BEING A GAME DESIGNER!

If you do aspire to make games and think you can put things in just to put them in, then you are a disgrace.

Games, like movies, are not something to be assembled hurriedly sans attention to detail. If you dream of being a game-maker . . . never say, "It's just a game."

Sometimes that's the answer, though, and there's nothing wrong with that.

It's only just a game when I lose.

Well, I wasn't being as specific as I'd intended anyway. I meant that if you're one who thinks it is alright to include something without explanation other than "It's just a game," then you shouldn't be a game designer.

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

It's only just a game when I lose.

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All players should know it's just a game, but no game designer should ever think that way.

Video games are the parchments and canvases of our time. Who will be the next Picasso? The next Poe?

It could be you.

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

I guess that officially makes you an unfit game-maker, Kishi.

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If by "officially," you mean "in the opinion of a lunatic."

But Link NEEDS a Rocket Launcher to combat EVIL!!

A game is not just a game to me, its just a game to the players who will piss and moan about little things. However when you are one doing the ideas the work and the sweat into it, it is everything that your imagination wants. Even bad games(some) take a lot of time to do and think of. So when people say they suck because of graphics or whatever little things like that, they have no idea how games work and how hard and important it is to the develpers and the team working on it. Just a game? Hardly if you are making it, to the players however meh.

I never takes games seriosly, I play them to have fun.....

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

All players should know it's just a game, but no game designer should ever think that way.

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If Gamers are going to treat it as "just a game" the Designer shouldn't think any different.

X, here is the thing. Whe games are published by a large staff, communication causes several things to get over looked. Like Sephiorth's sheath :D Final Fantasy usually has a number of plotholes, granted. When you have many collaberating ideas, things happen. The product you start with is never the product you end with.

I have worked on several projects now (basic programs) but you never hit all the bases you were trying to. You could, but that takes time. In the fiscal world, and technology worlds, you don't have time to worry about everything. I do agree that the design teams should laminate out better project plans, but $$ talks louder than quality I guess :greenie:

And you can't say I am not a game designer - so :p ;)
Bipper

I know this is way off topic and Im missing the point but this reminds me of when that evangelion fanboy came up to one of the makers and said he read Gendos lips to see what the last thing he said to ritsuko was and then the maker had to explain to the guy that evangelion was a cartoon.

Anyone who enters any artistic medium with anything less than the desire to create beauty is a hack and has no business being there.

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Originally Posted by Rase

But Link NEEDS a Rocket Launcher to combat EVIL!!

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:lol:

Next stop, GTA: Hyrule.

The way I look at it, it's not just a game for game designers, it's a way of providing food and shelter for your family so you had better put your heart and soul into it or else you might be out of a job.

Oh. Thanks for that. I'll think twice the next time I make card battle games for my RPGs.

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

Anyone who enters any artistic medium with anything less than the desire to create beauty is a hack and has no business being there.

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This all looks resonable on paper (er computer screen, w/e) but look at it like this: If you had 30 people, and you had to make a great masterpeice painting - think it would turn out just as great?

Why 30 people? Because like the junkie said its what puts food in mouth and warm beds for the kids. There for you need to make sure your fiscally sound as well.

I have my own project, that I work on very slowly, and I am taking my time on it. I am trying to make sure my input is perfect for it. I am not too great with music, nor am I that great with graphics, so I may eventually get some help in this area. I may pray and hope that the music, and graphics are great, but at the end of the day - I know my contribution will be great in my own aspect.

Point is even the most sought through game (I have been planning for over 10 years - granted, much since child hood - but none the less) for a long time, and in the industry you don't get that luxury. As you want your colors to be vibrant, your code well done, the music godlike; its noble, but technology moves so fast you would be stuck restarting over and over again.

bipper

I think when you start nitpicking, it is reasonable to say "hey, it's just a game." I don't think the character designers of FFVII had any hidden message behind Cloud being able to so easily carry a gigantic sword.

Now, when there's actual symbolism, yeah, go nuts. Otherwise I just see it as pointlessly nitpicking fine details that really have nothing to do with anything.

Frankly it's their game, they have the right to make it as abstract as they want.

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Originally Posted by Craig

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

All players should know it's just a game, but no game designer should ever think that way.

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If Gamers are going to treat it as "just a game" the Designer shouldn't think any different.

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Naive view. I know you like the idea of making games and so do I. When I was writing my gamescripts, I encountered many many plotholes. Who were these new characters I was introducing? Where did he come from? What is this place they're heading for? Why is this particular item so important?
I had to alter parts of my story multiple times for it to make sense. I realized at times that I had added things simply because they had entertainment value. However, I had to remove them because they simply didn't add well to the story.
It's a fine and wise philosophy to relax when pressured and to realize that the world won't explode if the game your making isn't perfect. However, if you're adding things just to make the game look or feel cool, then you're destroying the credibility of the story. Despite the fact these games are mere fantasy, their appeal is the idea that the events within could really transpire . . . at least within the boundaries of that world.

Bipper, I think you've missed the point. Accidentally leaving in or out contingencies to the game are not an identical circumstance to putting in features simply to make the game more attractive. I'm not saying any particular producer is guilty of this or that any producer is beyond it. I am, however, saying that a game is belittled by extraneous features.

Gothcya, I do agree, my own arguements lied me aside from the point. I am still a firm believer that in the real world, games are made to quickly and often result in these silly plotholes. Again, as I said, havingso many people working on the game, it often comes down to a project manager making everything come together. This was a horrible fad, and I see it digressing now. I see Final Fantasy IX as being a great example of this. Final fantasy VII was theoretically rushed, but that one turned out fine.

/shrug thats all I got at the moment :)

Bipper

I believe in certain genre's it should be kept in the motion of just a game. Some people aren't mature enough to distinguish reality from game. Creators have beautiful imaginations but bringing it to the scale of real life in some genres like violence may be quite disturbing and unpleasant for the world as a whole.

And movies like Saving Private Ryan or something like that are pleasant then? Not to say people arent able to distingush something like Evangelion to real life but it still applies.

I cant wait till Mario Theft Auto. Pick from one of five characters including the Main character: Mafioso Mario!! Go around with weapons including: Shroom Grenades, Flower Power Rocket Launcher, Petey Pistol, and Bowser could shoot fire out of his ass probably.... I wish I could make that game.....

Jay . . . go away. You're bugging me.



Star Trek, Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, Dungeons & Dragons, Final Fantasy.

People who are naive enough to say, "it's just a movie" or "it's just a game" should steer clear of trying to create anything, 'cause they'd fail miserably . . . and then I'd kill them.

When you create a story, you make up your own facts to set ground rules for what can and can't be done in the story. If you don't, you get FLCL, Abenobashi, Mel Brooks productions. Having no rules in your story is great fun for parodies and cartoons; things that are meant to make people laugh instead of paying attention to non-existent plot.

However, when any set of rules exist in a story, there must be reasons for every feature included or not included. For example, the Judgement Ring system in Shadow Hearts was symbolic of leaving your journey in the hands of fate. The stronger you tried to become, the less your chances of success were in battle.
The cards in KH:CoM were symbolic of the dreamlike world of Castle Oblivion. They didn't really do anything by themselves. However, Sora's memory had been stripped (and he was remembering less the further he travelled), the cards merely helped him remember: his attacks, his friends, and his adventures.

Although the execution is really what makes it so great, FLCL actually has a very good plot.

Sure it has plot, but how do Manga shots and out-of-character conversations have to do with that plot. (i.e. "Those slow-motion scenes are hard." "What? I thought that was special effect. You're saying you did that?" or "You know what fooly-cooly means. The main character always knows these sort of things." It's funny, but it's pointless.)

I don't see how they subtract or even distract from anything.

That's not what I mean.

It's clear there's an actual story and plot, but there's nothing in there that explains how those scenes are possible, which makes the entire premise a mere jest. It doesn't distract from the story, but you certainly wouldn't take it seriously in the slightest bit, which is what the writers want: They want you to laugh.

Quote one point in the series when someone gives the slightest explanation as to how these odd things are even remotely possible and I could declare this to be a solid story.

Takkun's dad is aware he's part of an anime (4th wall breaking), as ep 6 shows. From there they can start breaking anime rules and introduce new elements such as their pseudo manga sequences and the overall apprent sillyness, since you've just been reminded that you're watching an anime.

Mercen-X, while you do have a valid point, you are bringing it out of context. The truth is that no matter how well the game is designed, it is still just a game. A single designer, or even a group of designers, can't match the sheer numbers of a fanbase in the millions. Things that they never noticed needed an explanation, whether because they thought they already had one, or that it was such an insignificant point in the game that it didn't need one, or any of a hundred different reasons will not go unnoticed by fans. Many games with subtle points that wind up being explained with "it's just a game" weren't created by designers who thought that. The nitpicky fans just notice things designers don't think of, and then they have no excuse to fall back on but honesty. It is just a game, and no matter how well it is planned, a handful of people won't notice everything that millions of gamers will. So cut them some slack.

(Oh, and Star Wars is not just a movie, it is a source of evil and stupidity in the universe that I have a personal vendetta against.)

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

(Oh, and Star Wars is not just a movie, it is a source of evil and stupidity in the universe that I have a personal vendetta against.)

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I believe Lucas considers it to be just a movie. Why else would he have ruined it by chopping up the storyline? Oh, I also plan on dominating the world with my homemade lightsaber . . . actually, I'll have my legion of scientists and alchemists make my lightsaber.

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Things that they never noticed needed an explanation, whether because they thought they already had one, or that it was such an insignificant point in the game that it didn't need one, or any of a hundred different reasons will not go unnoticed by fans.

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You really ought to give them more credit. More commonly, they are aware of the intelligence level of their major fanbase (Japan). They know their fans like to nitpick and overthink the story, so they do their best to make sure everything they include is as accurate as possible, because their fans like to theorize on what the creators were thinking.
They also know of our intelligence, which is why the games are not morbidly dumbed down when they reach America. How fun would a simple game be to an educated 20-year-old whose having an altogether boring day? None. When you're bored, you're brain needs activity and a simple game won't provide that. Which is why Final Fantasy (and others) includes so many real-world and mythological references, so the superior folk will have something worthwhile to figure out.

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Many games with subtle points that wind up being explained with "it's just a game" weren't created by designers who thought that. The nitpicky fans just notice things designers don't think of, and then they have no excuse to fall back on but honesty. It is just a game, and no matter how well it is planned, a handful of people won't notice everything that millions of gamers will. So cut them some slack.

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I suppose I'm a bit of a Natze, I don't like simple people who skip details and subtleties and dive for the cheap answers. It reminds me of Terra from Teen Titans when she wanted to smash the machine about to sink the Titans Tower. It's a fast and simple solution . . . that could make the situation worse. I like people who post their own theories on things and then mention that it is just a game. But when a bunch of scrubs start pouring in like insects with the single line "it's just a game" and offering no real opinion, it just makes me think their brains don't function correctly.

I guess my real quarrel to this whole thing has been FF7's limit system. People post the simple answer repeatedly, "it's just a game." However, when you include an in-game feature in the story, you have to give it some depth, some background. Cloud mentions near the beginning of the game that everyone has the potential to unleash limits. If he's mentioning it in his dialogue, how does it not play into the story. As I've mentioned before, plot and story are two separate things, they are in a symbiotic relationship though, in any good story, you will find a solid plot, however, a story is not a plot. The history of the world of FF7 decides the role of the limit break, not the plot of the game. I don't understand how people can be simple enough to discard this.

it is just a game, like it is just a film, like it is just a song, like it is just a picture.

creators do what they want on their chosen canvas.

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

(Oh, and Star Wars is not just a movie, it is a source of evil and stupidity in the universe that I have a personal vendetta against.)

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I believe Lucas considers it to be just a movie. Why else would he have ruined it by chopping up the storyline? Oh, I also plan on dominating the world with my homemade lightsaber . . . actually, I'll have my legion of scientists and alchemists make my lightsaber.

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Things that they never noticed needed an explanation, whether because they thought they already had one, or that it was such an insignificant point in the game that it didn't need one, or any of a hundred different reasons will not go unnoticed by fans.

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You really ought to give them more credit. More commonly, they are aware of the intelligence level of their major fanbase (Japan). They know their fans like to nitpick and overthink the story, so they do their best to make sure everything they include is as accurate as possible, because their fans like to theorize on what the creators were thinking. They also know of our intelligence, which is why the games are not morbidly dumbed down when they reach America. How fun would a simple game be to an educated 20-year-old whose having an altogether boring day? None. When you're bored, you're brain needs activity and a simple game won't provide that. Which is why Final Fantasy (and others) includes so many real-world and mythological references, so the superior folk will have something worthwhile to figure out.

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Many games with subtle points that wind up being explained with "it's just a game" weren't created by designers who thought that. The nitpicky fans just notice things designers don't think of, and then they have no excuse to fall back on but honesty. It is just a game, and no matter how well it is planned, a handful of people won't notice everything that millions of gamers will. So cut them some slack.

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I suppose I'm a bit of a Natze, I don't like simple people who skip details and subtleties and dive for the cheap answers. It reminds me of Terra from Teen Titans when she wanted to smash the machine about to sink the Titans Tower. It's a fast and simple solution . . . that could make the situation worse. I like people who post their own theories on things and then mention that it is just a game. But when a bunch of scrubs start pouring in like insects with the single line "it's just a game" and offering no real opinion, it just makes me think their brains don't function correctly.

I guess my real quarrel to this whole thing has been FF7's limit system. People post the simple answer repeatedly, "it's just a game." However, when you include an in-game feature in the story, you have to give it some depth, some background. Cloud mentions near the beginning of the game that everyone has the potential to unleash limits. If he's mentioning it in his dialogue, how does it not play into the story. As I've mentioned before, plot and story are two separate things, they are in a symbiotic relationship though, in any good story, you will find a solid plot, however, a story is not a plot. The history of the world of FF7 decides the role of the limit break, not the plot of the game. I don't understand how people can be simple enough to discard this.

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I'm giving them plenty of credit. I just don't think that a few people, even if they are super geniuses, will consider everything that a million+ person fanbase will, no matter how long they spend on the game. Games that are years in design will be nitpicked for decades by fans. (And, unless one of the game designers was on crack I don't think there's a chance in hell a billion of them could've planned Future Esthar's theories.)

Of course, I hate people jumping to such conclusions when there are logical ways to work things out too, but sometimes, you must realize that "it's just a game" is the answer. That doesn't mean that it's not fun to come up with alternative theories, but do you really think that these game designers come up with theories that can only be figured out by one person staring at a game for 20 years?

As to the Limit Break thing, while I hold my own views on the matter, I am not yet sure enough of my theories to present them, so you're on your own.

Uhhh.... Video games don't have to make sense. Mario touches a magic mushroom and he gets taller. He touches a flower and suddenly he can shoot fire now. He touches a "starman" and he's invincible for 10 seconds. But if the turtle walks into him, he's dead.

Games don't have to make ANY sense to be awesome. Heck, just look at Earthworm Jim.

I can just see what fans would demand if Super Mario Bros. 3, one of the finest games EVER made, came out today.

"these are the magical leaves of the mushroom kingdom! the lifestream gives them the powers of wind, embodied in the ancient raccoon spirit. When you touch a leaf, the raccoon spirit will come down in a 5 minute CG sequence and give you his likeness. When you have his likeness, you can talk to the spirits of the wind, but only when you can run fast enough to catch up to them! If you ask them nicely, they will lift your body up to the sky! And then you can kill hookers with the car you stole from the old woman, who you also ran over. Then you can steal drugs from the cop and use them, and you can even give them to the wind spirits to watch princess peach flash her naughties at you!"

Yeah... That sounds... *VOMITS*

I think what x is saying is that when people work hard to make a story credible then destoy it with stupid plot holes because its "just a game" Need a royal butt kicking.

I agree.

It's like the little nerdy kid trying hard to be big and tuff in front of the jocks so they don't beat him up or something. Workin g outside of your element, destroys credability.

Certain distains go for certain stories (not genres), while others should be handled carfully. Detailed storyies, often found in rpgs, should be well thought. I have seen a lot of plotholes get left unanswered, and a lot of bs get thrown into a lot of rpgs. When they try to be different, and out of element, they loose credability as a series.

So If they look at it as being "just a game" that is more than likely how it will be taken by the public. If they put a lot of extra work into it, then there is the chance it would be a godsend game. A great game etc.

What I really hate/love about plot holes and 'story glitches' arethe way they can be disected. Look at the Matrix. I thought the first was just great writing with a lot of symbolism, but it appears that the symbolosm was mainly inturpeted by the viewing audience. The writers then got a big head, and instead of writing and artistic medium, they wrote two more ass hat movies, and animation complimentry, a mmorpg, and a video game. Let alone with a million other articles.


Bipper

Yeah, I hate when they add things to games that don't make sense like "magic". It SOOOO makes loopholes. :rolleyes2

OMG Bipper, I love you, quite possibly in a very gay way.

OMG DJZen, you're totally missing the point. RPGs explain their magic systems, they explain why monsters exist or that they merely have existed, they explain why the ultimate villain of the story is the ultimate villain, some (not many, but some) even go as far as to explain why the characters always where the same clothes no matter where they go.

Mario is a game about a plumber who stumbles upon an alternate world with rampaging turtles and a kidnapped princess. Besides the basic premise, nothing is explained . . . AND THAT IS WHY IT IS PERFECT! NOTHING is explained. The second something like mario getting powers from a leaf is explained then everything else needs explaining.

See what I mean? When you offer no explanation for anything, then it is indeed "just a game." But when you start explaining things, you're audience starts to form questions. Your explanations have to answer those questions.

Mario didn't explain itself to anybody, therefore it set no rules or guidelines for what could or couldn't happen in the story. Sure, you learn that walking into fireballs, turtles, goombas, spikes, missiles, and off of cliffs is not a good thing. But gameplay rules are entirely different from story rules.

It's nonsense to ask why numbers pop out of your enemies when you attack them in an RPG because no character in the game addresses the issue. However, Limit Breaks are mentioned in FF7. So then there's the question as to how the limits exist and why the characters know about them. When you say, "it's just a game" at this point, you're disregarding the entire premise of the story.
You see, the "it's just a game" people are fool enough to believe that a story is only what occurs in the pages you read of this book, or the scenes that you watch in that film, or the scenes you play in that game. There's much more to it than that. Despite not wanting to believe it, you can't ignore the ongoing backstory, the history of a world being brought to life in your imagination.
A story is not just the prologue to the epilogue. 'Cause that prologue entails the history of that world or the premise of this story. The history of a world, that world, any world . . . is a story in itself and cannot be overlooked. So then, why are the characters of FF7 allowed to use Limit Breaks, how do they know of them, how do they know that an item can unlock their most powerful techniques and why can't any other character in the game use these limit skills?

And you sooo don't know the difference between a loophole and a plothole. :rolleyes2

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Yeah, I hate when they add things to games that don't make sense like "magic". It SOOOO makes loopholes.

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:cry:

Basically, if your gonna make a soiid game; don;t go half ass. If you want your game to be taken seriously when other's take it serious, then put your heart and soul into it. Mario was a farse, and a great one at that. Disecting mario and other games of the sort are like trying to compare "Montey Python and the Holy Grail" to the real life Authorian legends. They are ment to be fun and just a game.

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OMG Bipper, I love you, quite possibly in a very gay way.

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glad I finally got the point myself lol :love:
Bipper

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Originally Posted by bipper

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Default
Yeah, I hate when they add things to games that don't make sense like "magic". It SOOOO makes loopholes.

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:cry:

Basically, if your gonna make a soiid game; don;t go half ass. If you want your game to be taken seriously when other's take it serious, then put your heart and soul into it. Mario was a farse, and a great one at that. Disecting mario and other games of the sort are like trying to compare "Montey Python and the Holy Grail" to the real life Authorian legends. They are ment to be fun and just a game.

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OMG Bipper, I love you, quite possibly in a very gay way.

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glad I finally got the point myself lol :love:
Bipper

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Actually, what I like about this is that Monty Python and the Holy Grail gets the Arthurian legends more correct than 90% of current movies about the subject. Excalibur was given to Arthur by the Lady of the Lake, not pulled from the stone.

Sky, now you are just being too damn clever ;) shhh lol

I realize that but, it doesn't hut my point too much.. i hope :D


Bipper