Thoughts on this statement?

Earlier, when my mother and I were watching a new report about the various measures to stop people smoking, I was doing my thing of defending free, personal choice, and personal responsibility. My mother said at one point

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If people are too stupid to do it for themselves, you have to do it for them.

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I find it difficult to believe I am in any way related to her. Obviously those who follow me escapades in EotW will know that that statement sits rather at odds with my beliefs. I wanted to know what other people thought about it though.

Morally yes. If someone is gonna put a gun to thier head, you should stop them.

I believe it all sits on the topic of what is wrong though. It should be different per situation. Using one logical statement to entail everything is impossible. There are som many contigancies and occurances that happen to anything that would be difined in that one statement. All we can do is nitpick and look at every single problem, and every instance of that problem, then learn to live accordingly.

You can't write a law book with only 100 words in it. I would think that would be impossable.

Bipper

There are cases where people are too stupid to take care of themselves and I don't feel (much) sympathy for them. These are usually the situations where their own stupidity affects only themselves. Examples: smoking to some extent (open spaces, smoker's house), video game addiction, light drinking, light weed smoking, walking/driving/fishing on a frozen lake... However, I can think of plenty of situations where one's stupidity puts others at risk, at which point I'm for preventing them if possible from being stupid. Examples: heavy drinking (induces violence, and drunk driving if you drive), heavy weed smoking (it's just as bas as drunk driving if you drive) or heavy drugs (same, plus the addiction which is going to cause trouble), overspeeding in city areas (kids don't have the physical ability to see danger like adults do, and can't estimate speed nearly as fast), smoking near a gas pump...

Endless, I think then it leaves the realm we're talking about and becomes a dangerous situation. It's entirely different. In other words, I agree.

You know where I stand on this, MILF. =P

we do the same for other dangerous practices like drug abuse. and we try and stop people blowing their own brains out when possible.

Yeah, but do you think it's right?

yes.

Why?

because it's the job of the state to protect it's citizens.

There's a difference between protecting citizens, and limiting citizens. What you suggest is the latter.

I used to smoke. Today is day seven without a cigarette for me. I quit ONLY because I wanted to, after ten years of smoking. I have seen every single ad campaign, every nasty little ad on Canadian cigarette packages, read bunches of sad and horrible stories of people dying from cigarette usage, and have even met someone very special whose grandparents died of lung cancer due to tobacco use. But I would not stop. Why? Because I did not want to. If I would have died of some horrible self induced cigarette related illness, then it would have been my own fault, no one else's. However, that being said, I would rather make my own decisions as to what I'm going to do with my own body than let a government do it for me.

About the other things, such as drug abuse and drinking and suicide... there is absolutely nothing anyone can do short of trying to educate people as to why these things are not good. But ultimately, one has to decide for oneself.

rcabronx is my hero. alla dat was the troof.

I believe people should make their own decisions. I'd rather teach someone to make decisions for themselves than do it for them. That teaches nothing but dependence.

I have a chip on my shoulder regarding tobacco use and alcohol or drug abuse. Watching people I care about slowly kill themselves, and possibly put others around them in harms way simply because they lack the willpower to put an end to it themselves. I'd gladly watch it all be stripped away from them. But that's just me. And my rather uncouth way of caring.

I don't agree with that statement. If people are too stupid to do or not do something, then they get to suffer the consequences. In that way, they can learn from their mistakes, and hopefully eventually develop a rudementary thought process. Forcing people to do the right thing (or, put more accurately, what one person's [such as your mother's] view of the right thing is) is evil. You don't have any right to cause harm to others just because they are total idiots. If people want to kill themselves by smoking, that's there perogative. Unless they try to force me to smoke, or stand close enough that I am forced to inhale secondhand smoke (after I have asked them politely to stop), I don't have a problem with them. People are free to do what they want. That's free will, and your mother needs to understand that it applies to everyone, not just her.

Oh, in response to the above post, if I was watching someone I cared about kill themselves through smoking, I would try to convince them to stop, but I wouldn't take physical action to prevent them, unless they acknowledged that it was killing them and admitted that they couldn't quit on their own, in which case I would offer whatever assisstance I could.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

I don't agree with that statement. If people are too stupid to do or not do something, then they get to suffer the consequences. In that way, they can learn from their mistakes, and hopefully eventually develop a rudementary thought process. Forcing people to do the right thing (or, put more accurately, what one person's [such as your mother's] view of the right thing is) is evil. You don't have any right to cause harm to others just because they are total idiots. If people want to kill themselves by smoking, that's there perogative. Unless they try to force me to smoke, or stand close enough that I am forced to inhale secondhand smoke (after I have asked them politely to stop), I don't have a problem with them. People are free to do what they want. That's free will, and your mother needs to understand that it applies to everyone, not just her.

Oh, in response to the above post, if I was watching someone I cared about kill themselves through smoking, I would try to convince them to stop, but I wouldn't take physical action to prevent them, unless they acknowledged that it was killing them and admitted that they couldn't quit on their own, in which case I would offer whatever assisstance I could.

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right on.

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Originally Posted by skyblade

I don't agree with that statement. If people are too stupid to do or not do something, then they get to suffer the consequences.

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I would agree with this, as on paper it looks fine. Other people suffer though because of the actions of one. Great if we let cocaine addicts run around the place it becomes a dangerous situation. We need to avoid that and illegalize the stuff. Same with guns.

As far as smoking, second hand smoke is a killer as well, drinking leads to trouble as well.

Thanks to those stupid people whom learn lessons (debatable) other innocense die or suffer at the fact that they just seen someone they care for died.

Either way, you take away the rights to control them, and you take the rights (and will) of those who are close to the person to protect them. You care for the person, and you may take away a few of thier abusable rights, but you protect thier life, and the well being of more citizens.

I really don't see a contest here. I do agree if the government thought we should eat healthier and outlawed tocco bell, I would definatley be posting in what is good about terroism (for a change) thread! :D
bipper

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Originally Posted by bipper

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Originally Posted by skyblade

I don't agree with that statement. If people are too stupid to do or not do something, then they get to suffer the consequences.

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I would agree with this, as on paper it looks fine. Other people suffer though because of the actions of one. Great if we let cocaine addicts run around the place it becomes a dangerous situation. We need to avoid that and illegalize the stuff. Same with guns.

Bipper

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If you read my entire post, you would notice that I said that nothing should be done unless it endangers others.

And guns should stay legalized. Making guns illegal is stupid and will never work.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

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Originally Posted by bipper

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Originally Posted by skyblade

I don't agree with that statement. If people are too stupid to do or not do something, then they get to suffer the consequences.

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I would agree with this, as on paper it looks fine. Other people suffer though because of the actions of one. Great if we let cocaine addicts run around the place it becomes a dangerous situation. We need to avoid that and illegalize the stuff. Same with guns.

Bipper

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If you read my entire post, you would notice that I said that nothing should be done unless it endangers others.

And guns should stay legalized. Making guns illegal is stupid and will never work.

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Hasn't worked, in fact, but that's for another thread.

Anyway, I must apologize to those who posted in this thread for not replying, as you see I was ousted from EotW due to a certain comment I made. Nevertheless, thank you for showing me that a fair number of you continue to believe in personal freedoms over state powers. I have faith in Humanity yet.

ACK!

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Originally Posted by skyblade

If you read my entire post, you would notice that I said that nothing should be done unless it endangers others.

And guns should stay legalized. Making guns illegal is stupid and will never work.

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Ack, sorry bout that Sky, I went off on a tangent again, and never noticed this thread grew. WhatI ment to get around to in my last thread is simply that since the simple actions of one, can effect so many, where would one draw the line?

Dint mean to be a bastage and just quote the first sentance, I really did read the whole thing!!:D
Bipper

This is a tricky issue. Sure, you can't really order people to stop smoking, but you can point out how dangerous it is. What you can do, is stop tobbaco companies saying it's not harmful. Then people will realy just have to decide for themselves.
But I think smoking should be banned in certain public places. Smoking in your own home is fine, but you can't make other people breathe your smoke.

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Originally Posted by Traitorfish

This is a tricky issue. Sure, you can't really order people to stop smoking, but you can point out how dangerous it is. What you can do, is stop tobbaco companies saying it's not harmful. Then people will realy just have to decide for themselves.
But I think smoking should be banned in certain public places. Smoking in your own home is fine, but you can't make other people breathe your smoke.

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Yeah, I can see where you're coming from there. Believe me, I'm pro-Capitalism, I'm not pro-Corporate-lies.

I don't really like the idea of public property, but in my eyes private properties have the right to decide individually.

I think public property is important. Common ground, metepohrical or not, is important to maintain civil peace. To maintain civil peace is to maintain thier rights.

I do not really think that everyone should enjoy every luxury in thier house. Everyone having thier own pools and such, would be very strenuous on the enviroment, and everything else. Also, if not for public properties like roads and sidewalks, transportation across private land would lead to many problems.

I belive less in gluttons than sharing.

Bipper

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

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Originally Posted by Traitorfish

This is a tricky issue. Sure, you can't really order people to stop smoking, but you can point out how dangerous it is. What you can do, is stop tobbaco companies saying it's not harmful. Then people will realy just have to decide for themselves.
But I think smoking should be banned in certain public places. Smoking in your own home is fine, but you can't make other people breathe your smoke.

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Yeah, I can see where you're coming from there. Believe me, I'm pro-Capitalism, I'm not pro-Corporate-lies.

I don't really like the idea of public property, but in my eyes private properties have the right to decide individually.

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If people want to smoke,then fine. Personally I don't because death doesn't need to be rushed to my doorstep through tabacco. But what makes me sick is seeing pregnant ladies with a cancer stick hanging from their lips. I just wanna go up to them, slap them in the face and make them realize how important not smoking is to their health AND their future child's. It's just disgusting.
As long as you're not hurting others, then smoke all you want. Just let me say "I told you so" when your health starts to go downhill. :D