if we stayed neutral

what would have happened if we never intervened in the german invasion of france and belgium in 1914?

would the russian revolution happen? would germany have sought to conquer it or just to remove it from opposition in the schliefien plan?

would hitler have retired a war hero and never kicked off about the jews? the hyperinflation of the german people (and france when conquered) would never have happened?

wouls britain have been better or worse? better for not having two world wars. or worse for having a massive germany across the border?

Well, Germany probably never would have held to all that territory. It wasn't exactly the starter of that conflict, one of its allies was. No doubt it would have held Austria, and also shared the territory between itself and Russia. Probably wouldn't have expanded much beyond that. Romania, it would probably have taken. Some tiny bit of the middle east.

I guarantee you that WW2 would have been a VERY different situation. Hitler never would have risen to power, because Germany wouldn't have needed such a warmongering leader. The USA wouldn't have built such a powerful military force. We'd probably still be using prop. planes as fighters.

i assume that germany would of enveloped the crumbiling austrian hungarian empire and rolled into france while also pushing east, a similiar siutation to the napoleonic wars. No Cold war, no american superpower either.
But honestly, what's the point.

Quote:

---

no american superpower either.

---

Thats enough for me D:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lionx

Quote:

---

no american superpower either.

---

Thats enough for me D:

---

Even though I'm an American, I have to say I agree with this. The less limelight we get the less trouble we get ourselves into. It'd be nice not constantly being under attack for our core government beliefs and being just another nation in the world.

Just a question, where would the Great Depression have fallen into all of this? I don't remember it's exact causes...did World War I have a major effect on it? I'm wondering what would have happened if this alternate timeline you mentioned happened - would the effects of the Depression be felt more, or would it not have happened at all?

Quote:

---

Well, Germany probably never would have held to all that territory. It wasn't exactly the starter of that conflict, one of its allies was

---

Hitler wanted all of the territory because of his idealogoy of the mother country of Austria-Germany in his book, Mein Kampf. He went into detail about doing all of this in prison, got out, tried to start a revolution, failed, and started major propaganda.

Without Hitler, the Nazi movement wouldnt have gotten into power

eek! sorry for double post.

Quote:

---

Just a question, where would the Great Depression have fallen into all of this? I don't remember it's exact causes...did World War I have a major effect on it? I'm wondering what would have happened if this alternate timeline you mentioned happened - would the effects of the Depression be felt more, or would it not have happened at all?

---

After WWI, because after the war, unlike the USA's allies, the stock market went in an immedaiate boom. Industires were procducing more goods and people were getting higher wages. But even though the market was in its bull session, the economy had underlying weaknesses. Farmers in particular, because of the low farm prices. Some people did not get higher wages, even though goods were growing and costing more. Those who couldnt afford didnt buy. Slowly this created slow demand and overproduction to the Great Depression.
Eventually, this led people to call in loans, and when people couldnt be able to pay back the loands, finacial panic came. Stock tumbled, and it came into debt with many investors, causing the Great Despression

the economic downturn of the Great Depression was coupled with a very very bad drought in the Midwest where the majority of the food for the nation was grown or ranched. This decrease in supply led to the Grapes of Wrath type scenes we're all familiar with from this time period.

As for World War II, I doubt it would have happened the way it did. Germany's immense war debt from WWI directly led to the rise of the Nazi Party. For as bad as they were, the Nazi's did good for Germany and most Germans. They turned around the economic depression they were suffering from and provided food and clothing for people who didn't have it. I've even heard a seminar from a Jewish survivor of Auschwitz who specifically said, "Hitler did a lot of good for Germany and Germans." He also pointed out that it was Hitler's lieutenants who came up with the idea of mass slaughtering of human beings, not Hitler himself.

But Hitler was evil and I'll specifically go out of my way to dance and then pee on his grave if I ever get the chance to visit Germany.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

eek! sorry for double post.

Quote:

---

Just a question, where would the Great Depression have fallen into all of this? I don't remember it's exact causes...did World War I have a major effect on it? I'm wondering what would have happened if this alternate timeline you mentioned happened - would the effects of the Depression be felt more, or would it not have happened at all?

---

After WWI, because after the war, unlike the USA's allies, the stock market went in an immedaiate boom. Industires were procducing more goods and people were getting higher wages. But even though the market was in its bull session, the economy had underlying weaknesses. Farmers in particular, because of the low farm prices. Some people did not get higher wages, even though goods were growing and costing more. Those who couldnt afford didnt buy. Slowly this created slow demand and overproduction to the Great Depression.
Eventually, this led people to call in loans, and when people couldnt be able to pay back the loands, finacial panic came. Stock tumbled, and it came into debt with many investors, causing the Great Despression

---

The Great Depression began in 1929 when the entire world suffered an enormous drop in output and an unprecedented rise in unemployment. World economic output continued to decline until 1932 when it clinked bottom at 50% of its 1929 level. There was a Stock market crash (Black Monday) and this cause many a bank to go bankrupt. Back then, they had no FDAA insuring bank accounts (now if this happend we would be insured 100k per account - supposedly). So people just lost thier money they had in the bank.

This caused less spending at the lowerlevels, which caused vast losses at the high (er income) level. The effect was worsened when the manufacturors at the time would not lower thier prices, or take cuts at the top (Same thing happens to day - corprate scum). Firing workers cause morale, and productivity loss, untill we finally collapsed at 1932.

I must say, it was an amazing recovery though! No thanks to hoover :D

Bipper

Does Hitler even have a grave in Germany?

His body was burned in the bunker (SPOILER)he shot himself in. His ashes were burried in a the bunker's garden.

Thats all I know. It was rumored on the history chanel (one of them wierd history conspiracy shows) that russion troops found a jawbone, and somthing else (can;t remmeber), but they said that has not been confirmed? Sorry the details are fough, I seen this sho 7 years ago when I was a sophmore :D

Bipper

Well Germany certainly would have resumed it's powerful state. Back in history the preset for a military Holy Roman Empire was held within Prussia. A massive army and land held in the strongest league of the Pentarchy which was a group of 5 country's. Britain, Prussia, Russia and I forgot the others but it certainly made Germany such a powerful state. (Or loose divisions back then.)

I'm almost positive Germany would have prevailed. They made a mistake taking Austria because they figured with a female ruler it'd be easy to convince and manipulate her breaking the stronghold. Only a portion was taken. And over time think about it. Within 40 years each prince was taking power, that's nearly 80,000 troops each semester of rule. Take 30,000 of those to be the king's personal guard and you have what... 50,000 added on for each ruling. All the way to present times the German army indeed was very strong. And continue to rule Europe.

Hitler made a fatal mistake within a 3 hour period of not moving in the Panzer's. That would have definitely made them victorious. I just personally believe Germany would prevail being a nation founded on warfare and military. And if you look back in time almost everything was controlled by an army. Even back in the beginning of times it was such a large influence that it went from mercenary warfare to a complete standing professional army passed down from king to prince, and so on. (:

Concerning America. I highly doubt back then it'd be able to handle outside influence. The fact that even the most vague history of the civil war took place explains that we had our own problems. A nation trying to divide itself over the founding principals. Obviously slavery was not apart of those founding principals therefore the Americans slaughtered each other. Now being so early in time and that event causing unrest across the land. The European nations already having centuries of experience in military would have crushed America. ):

Just my view from the studies I've taken. :3 (Amer His II honors/Western Civ II Honors --College)

:p

the thing about hitler's body.

it would be foolish to assume nothing but ashes remained. that's not even true of modern intense heat cremations letsalone a bit of petrol in a bunker. it is now in the kremlim archive.

I only go thalf of what you saying. I just am reporting what I got of the history chanel from some time ago. I belived this to be true. What, may I ask, is the Kremlin Archive?

I am pretty sure that some sort of structure survived, but its a matter of where they are. /shrug

Bipper

Kreml

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeBlayde

For as bad as they were, the Nazi's did good for Germany and most Germans. They turned around the economic depression they were suffering from and provided food and clothing for people who didn't have it.

---

That's nonsense and...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeBlayde

He also pointed out that it was Hitler's lieutenants who came up with the idea of mass slaughtering of human beings, not Hitler himself.

---

... that's nonsense too. First, the "They did good for Germany/Germans"- thing. Yeah, and a few years after the situation got even worse. Destroyed buildings all over the country, homeless people and tons of deads. How could that be good for Germany or Germans? Then, the "It wasn't Hitler's Idea"-thing: Sure it was his idea. Like in mediaeval times, it had to be a minority who would be guilty to this whole mess about bad economy and stuff. The jews.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

what would have happened if we never intervened in the german invasion of france and belgium in 1914?

would the russian revolution happen? would germany have sought to conquer it or just to remove it from opposition in the schliefien plan?

would hitler have retired a war hero and never kicked off about the jews? the hyperinflation of the german people (and france when conquered) would never have happened?

wouls britain have been better or worse? better for not having two world wars. or worse for having a massive germany across the border?

---

When you say we you mean brits right? Becuase I was pretty sure that they wree close to being invaded. What stopped this invasion of the UK was the Germans using most of there resources for the war effort in Russia.
Britain would've been worse because once Germany figured out htat Russia was a lost cause they would've turned to the UK pretty much. If it wasn't for the allie forces boxing in the germans the way they did. There would be no doubt you would be speaking german right about now.

Or maybe somehting would've happened like a british revolution or something kewl like that.

The Allies beat the Japaneese the same way. We boxed them in to the mainland of Japan. Werere we planned to take it for our own. The japaneese saw russia behind them and the USA in front of them. So avoiding soviet rule. They surrendered to the USA (Smart move really they are better off than they were before then.)

lordblazer i think you are talking about the second world war.

the first world war had a very complicated start and tactical situation. basicly germany's one and only attack and defence strategy was called the schiefflien plan which involved going through belgium and taking pairs in 8 weeks. this gave them enough time to turn the troops around to face the slow to react russians.

the russians revolted in 1917 after a pretty ty war and gave germany huge masses of land (why they never won with these new resources and possible recruits i don't know)

germany never wanted to take britain back then (in fact it was never the plan at the start and mostly during the second world war). it wanted to give france a good hiding and show russia who was in charge of europe. war with britain was inevitable (alliances) but was never wanted. it was feared. at the time britain was the super power. and it would have been an idiot who had any plans to try and invade the worlds most powerful nation, with the strongest and biggest navy, and happened to be an island.

and about the hitler and the final solution thing...

hitler never at any point had absolute command in germany. he spouted ideas and his generals acted in the way they thought best. like hitler would say "we need all the jews out of germany" his generals had many ideas, exile them, imprison them, ghettoise them, starve them, enslave them.

then at the wannasee conference one bright spark had the great idea of gassing them. (sarcasm not anti-semitism). hitler did not attend the conference and never in fact signed anything regarding the final solution. though of course he was aware it was happening. it just happened to fit his bigger picture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robesphere

... that's nonsense too. First, the "They did good for Germany/Germans"- thing. Yeah, and a few years after the situation got even worse. Destroyed buildings all over the country, homeless people and tons of deads. How could that be good for Germany or Germans? Then, the "It wasn't Hitler's Idea"-thing: Sure it was his idea. Like in mediaeval times, it had to be a minority who would be guilty to this whole mess about bad economy and stuff. The jews.

---

Obviously I was merely pointing out something a contemporary and survivor of the time period mentioned. I am not a historian. I am a businessman.

Even more obviously, the benefit to the German people would have been after the immense depression after being saddled with the War Debt of WWI and before the bombing, destruction and division of WWII. Before the War, they turned things around for Germany. Germany simply restarted their expansionistic goals and beliefs they'd held since the 1700's.

It was Hitler who blamed everything on the Jews. And it was Hitler's lieutenant who then took it a step further and suggested they be slaughtered en masse, they and the Gypsies. Hitler did nothing to stop it, though. Like Carl Marx once said, "I'm so very glad I'm not a Marxist." (Meaning, one doesn't personally believe, condone, nor support everything ever attributed to one. Nor did one say or imply things attributed to one.)

just a wee historical point. germany never had an expansionistic goals in the 1700's. it never existed as a complete entity until 1881 (i think). but until that point was a group of small countries called the holy roman empire.

yeah, and each of those little Baronies were constantly battling with their neighbors, constantly trying to expand their borders. :D

and then the Saxons from that particular area were also very expansionistic in the 5th century AD. :D

Quote:

---

Just a question, where would the Great Depression have fallen into all of this? I don't remember it's exact causes...did World War I have a major effect on it? I'm wondering what would have happened if this alternate timeline you mentioned happened - would the effects of the Depression be felt more, or would it not have happened at all?

---

This was already answered - though somewhat erroneously. Yes, the Great Depression probably still would've happened, because the war and its effect had no direct relation to it. It was caused by our own stupidity.

Basically, banks give out loans for business investments, right? But these are restricted by the free market economy - if a lot of investments hit it off, a lot of money comes in, the loans are repaid in full with interest, and more money can be given out. However, if the loans don't do so well, the money comes in slower, interests rates on the loans raise, and less are given out. The government wanted a way to keep interest rates down and have more loans in order to increase business investments, which would increase production, which would boost the economy. So the government started the Federal Reserve, which pooled all the banks' money together, and then the banks were told to accept any and all loans, and not worry about how much money was left. Because before, banks were also restricted by how much money they physically possessed - now they weren't.

The upshot is that all the banks combined loaned out more money than actually existed, since there was very few, if any, limits on credit. With businesses "booming," more people invested their fake money in the stock market, which boomed as well. People made fortunes - on paper, though a lot of the money never actually existed. An economy based on the equivalent of Monopoly money can't last for long, as the sudden collapse of Wall Street and the subsequent Great Depression showed.

At least, that's been the general idea of that my reading on this subject has led to. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raistlin

This was already answered - though somewhat erroneously. Yes, the Great Depression probably still would've happened, because the war and its effect had no direct relation to it. It was caused by our own stupidity.

---

Not quite true- part of the cause was to do with the money lost during the Russian Revolution, which was caused partly by WW1. Many investors, particularly the French, lost money when their property was seized by Lenin's Red Army. But your completely right about everything else.

EDIT:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cloud No.9

just a wee historical point. germany never had an expansionistic goals in the 1700's. it never existed as a complete entity until 1881 (i think). but until that point was a group of small countries called the holy roman empire.

---

Actually, the Holy Roman Empire was a very large, powerful nation. It was founded by Charlemagne, and existed in an on-off sort of way, until it was finally destroyed by Napoleon at the start of the 1800s.
Under leaders such as Frederick Barbarossa, it was very expansionistic- Brabarossa conquered northern Italy and took part in the crusades.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lordblazer

When you say we you mean brits right? Becuase I was pretty sure that they wree close to being invaded. What stopped this invasion of the UK was the Germans using most of there resources for the war effort in Russia.

---

The Germans couldn't invade, beacuse early action by the British navy confined the German fleet to it's ports early in the war. The British blockade dominated the German coast, and the British had complete domination of the North sea after the victory at Jutland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Without Hitler, the Nazi movement wouldnt have gotten into power

---

Hitler played off existing feelings within Germany- if Hitler hadn't lead the Nazis, someone else would have. At cetain points in history, some things are inevitable.

America didn't have that great an impact in the Great War so not much would have changed. The Russian Empire made peace with the Axis in 1917 after the Communist uprising so they pulled out regardless and there was a Communist Russia regardless.

Don't forget America only entered in 1917 against it's better judgement. The war MAY have lasted a bit longer but the stangle hold on Germany was tightening nonetheless, and this is despite Germany advances in 1918.

The big mistakes were post-war. The Reparations against Germany crippled and starved that nation to a point where political extremes were getting voices and ears to listen. It's arguable but I'm convinced if Clemenceau's insane Reparation demands were not adhered to, we would never have seen the NSDAP come to power in 1932. The original Reparation demands were actually much worse but for Woodrow Wilson's intervention.

WWI was a whole different cattle of fish to WWII. It was an empire building race that led to hostilities and Germany was not the twisted ideology it grew to become. It was a case of the Kaiser wanting to build an empire & Britain trying to keep her's.

America only came into play in a big way in the political aftermath and it came out much better than Britain, France & Italy.

To Cloud: The German Empire was created by Bismarck in 1871 after Prussia had defeated France in the Franco-Prussian War. Previously there had existed principalities of Prussia, Bavaria, Württemberg, Saxony etc. each with their own Kings. Bismarck united all of these states to create Germany. The Holy Roman Empire's grip on Germania died in 1806 when Napoleon stormed Europe. In 1918 the Deutscher Bund was formed in Vienna as a loose organisation to fill the void left by the collapse of Rome and the defeat of Napoleon. This would never last due to the rivalry between the Kingdom of Prussia and the Austrian Empire and when Bismarck united Germany, Austria did not become one of the German States.