Why Ask Why?
Hitchens comes through with the truth again.
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Why Ask Why?
Hitchens comes through with the truth again.
He's on the money, as he often is.
Now, let's settle ourselves down comfortably and wait for the apologists.
Two week ban for that crap. -eestlinc
Couldn't have said it better myself. Although I did try to once. Wasn't pretty...
I disagree. He titles the article "Why ask why" and yet he anwsers this question himself:
"Never make the mistake of asking for rationality here. And never underestimate the power of theocratic propaganda. The fanatics look at the population of Bali and its foreign visitors and they see a load of Hindus selling drinks—often involving the presence of unchaperoned girls—to a load of Christians."
Good, that's a way of seeing things, and as much as he has a point, it dosen't mean he is right. And finding the reason why this is done is part of the solution. It's not making an excuse, these things are not excusable, it's looking for the root of the problem. Looking for the root of the problem is something far more complicated than simply saying "they are fanatics".
I agree - asking 'why' may answer one's curiousity, but it doesn't really matter. Even if they do have very justified reasons - what difference does it make? "Oh, you have a justified reason for killing me, I guess I'll let you do it." Not going to happen. They are going to be fought against regardless of their motives - but because of what these motives make them do.
Yes, but maybe the motives are the heart of the problem, and we only concentrate on epidermic attacks. You can think killing is not justified. Good, I think that too. To me, quoting Juan Goytisolo, "a man who kills another man is not defending an idea: he is killing another man", yet the problem is that...well, they think it is justified. Probably to understand why they act is also a way to stop them. But why do that if you can divide the world in goods and evils as if it was all as simple as a Van Damme movie?Quote:
Originally Posted by War Angel
On a side note, yesterday I went around my favourite cinema theatre and saw they were showing this movie:
Paradise Now
I am going to watch it, as I have the feeling it may have a lot to say. It certainly looks interesting.
Not why, but HOW. I don't care why. I want to know how. I'm not saying an all-out assault using hundreds of thousands of troops is the best thing - our Mossad agents did a much better job at eliminating entire terrorist organisation, using intelligence, stealth, and well-aimed shots. Several agents (backed by a magnificent intelligence mechanism, mind you) managed to bring down the enemy, and were only put to a stop due to a tragic mistake, where they killed a poor Morrocan waiter in Norway, simply because he resembled some known terrorist. Cockimess doesn't lead to good performance, most of the time.Quote:
Probably to understand why they act is also a way to stop them.
EDIT: Oh, and that movie does look interesting. I have my fears, though...
Probably to stop them, you need to know why they act. The MOSSAD may do this operations, wich are probably far more effective than Bush's war, wich is even giving the terrorists more "why's". But well, let's not make another "war yes"/"war no" topic. However, what they did may save some people, stop an attack, but it's just in short term, a patch may keep the wound from bleeding for a while, but it will not close it (and to me, Bush only helps to open it more).Quote:
Not why, but HOW. I don't care why. I want to know how.
Why would someone blow himself up in a bus? You cannot anwser this in one line. Yeah, you can say "fanatism", and we will all agree, but it's never black or white, and there is a reason for that fanatism, and there is a reason for that reason, and thus a chain of reasons that lead to the origin, and then it is when you know how to close to wound. If the wound can be closed. Of course, attempting to anwser this questions out of ignorance, as many people do, will only lead to superficial and subjective anwsers. I know I can't do it, I don't know enough about the political situation, about the Israel-Palestine conflict, I have never met a muslim terrorist or his family- wich I consider a sine qua non condition for delivering a good anwser- or have spoken to Jewish soldiers. I don't know enough about popular Judaism or Islam, I can talk about great islamic phillosophical theories, but not about the popular interpretations of the Koran. If only a small part of all this budget wasted on wars was used for studies on the situation and serious conclusions, less violence would be necessary, but of course, the results of the study would probably, if objective, (and this is only my guess) not benefit western countires and economical interests.
You're speaking to an Israeli sodlier right now. :)Quote:
or have spoken to Jewish soldiers.
Anyway... what I meant was, that asking why is a probleamatic question. First of all - there aren't any definite answers. It's not a scientific question, where there are clear conclusions. You don't ever really know why your enemy is attacking you. It's his mind-set, his set of beliefs, his emotions, his hidden motives, everything. There is no right answer, only assumptions and theories, since we're talking about matters of culture, and matters of the heart.
So, yes, knowing the 'why' may sometimes help you eliminate those reasons... which is hardly the reason for this current 'war', if you could call it that. Usually, when Westerners ask 'why', it leads to them saying 'it's our fault', which leads them to say 'those poor people, we did them so much wrong', which makes them keep their soft, impotent arses on their comfortable metaphorical chairs, and not act against the aggressor.
So, in the end, it doesn't really matter. In-case you're not the one who attacked first, you don't really have to ponder too much on the 'why', and instead focus on the more practical 'how'. Now, I invite anyone who thinks it's their fault their enemy attacks them, to roll over and die, and save us all a great deal of trouble. Less pointless debating for me, and less effort spent for the enemy. We have to be considerate of them, too. :)
There is right answer. There always is. Of course, to find it we need a crystal ball to look into the possible consecuences of every single decision and see what works better. Since we can't do that, we need to get closer to the right answer with as much information as we can.Quote:
There is no right answer, only assumptions and theories, since we're talking about matters of culture, and matters of the heart.
We did them wrong. It dosen't mean we don't have to do anything about it, but yes, a great deal of the damage was caused by western countries. Western countires are greatly responsible for the current world, since it is a consequence of the age of colonizations. You don't like it? I am sure the Germans aren't proud of nazism, the Turkish about the crimes of the Ottoman Empire, the western Euorpean countries of crusades, the Russians of stalinism...Quote:
Usually, when Westerners ask 'why', it leads to them saying 'it's our fault', which leads them to say 'those poor people, we did them so much wrong', which makes them keep their soft, impotent arses on their comfortable metaphorical chairs, and not act against the aggressor.
Yet you don't see them rolling on the ground, weeping like little girls, metaphorically spekaing of-course. Having did wrong is one thing - and paying for it with a thousand-percent interest is another. But you know what? Like I said, it doesn't matter one bit. You just have to know which side you're on (i.e, the side who isn't trying to kill you), and stick with it.Quote:
I am sure the Germans aren't proud of nazism, the Turkish about the crimes of the Ottoman Empire, the western Euorpean countries of crusades, the Russians of stalinism...
what people need to realise that these people hate us. and they don't hate us in the way that you find the playground. it's a burning hatred that is hard to say. the same kinda hatred the nazis had for the jews.
we have screwed these people over and over and over again. and for some reason they don't reall like that.
lets look at how we screwed up iran. iran democratically elected a leader who nationalised the oil industry. america wasn't pleased with that idea and so helped a coup by the shah. the shah was a bit of a despot really, had a habit of killing people and torturing them and being a happy little dictator. but the yanks had their oil and so were happy.
this displeased many people in iran and they didn't like the way their ountry was going. and the ayatollah was not a happy man and so had a little revolution and we have modern day iran.
america didn't like this whole islamic thing especially since they had a habit of taking hostages. and messed about with the oil since they didn't like the west too much.
so america dropped support for iran and started supporting their neighbours. iraq. iraq was ran by another lovely dictator called sadamme hussein who had a nasty habit of torturing and killing people and being a lovely dictator. but the us liked him like they liked the shah. and they gave him lots of money and weapons and tanks and planes and bombs and chemical weapons and trained his pilots and army and all sorts of fun stuff. they were at the time fighting the iranian's so it was okay. sadamme liked gassing his own people though but we over looked that. he was after all fighting the iranian's who the americans didn't like.
and the americans like the iraqi's even though they were just a little bit evil. until they invaded quwait. which had oil interests america liked and so iraq was intervering and so america decided it didn't like iraq and went to war.
and so it managed to annoy two middle eastern countries who know hate them.
and this is repeated across the middle east.
these people don't hate us enough to do 9-11 or bomb london trains. that is the tip of the iceberg of these people's hate for us. nuking new york would be a bit of venegence and even then they may still want to do something worse.
they hate us. and they hate us with a passion. but they don't hate us because they are mad. they hate us because we pissed them off.
Yes its islamo-fascism and we need to fight it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
can't really. no major terrorist organiation has ever been defeated. it's a war we cannot win. we can however appease these people. this isn't unjustified hatred like the nazis. it is the same ferocity but these people have their reasons.remove the reasons and you remove the hatred. and that means forgiveness. forgiveness for screwing them over for the last 60 years. it's not going to end.
To the Nazis, their hatred was entirely justified. It doesn't matter if they are justified or not, because they believe their hatred is justified. And at any rate, we've seen how well appeasement works, right? Go Neville!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
However, the answer is to help the nations we've been terrible to. Not through apologies and reparations, but through treating them fairly in trade and diplomacy so that they can stand up on their own two feet, build nations of wealth and prosperity, and form governments of their own volition. I don't object to getting rid of Saddam or other despotic and/or terrorist leaders, but it's still better to help the people in whichever nation see it for themselves.
I don't even know how to respond...(graphic description ahead)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
I can't forgive these guys for ending my childhood on 9/11. I'll never unknown the horror stories I've heard and the images I saw. I always think about how people half way around the world celebrated as an unborn child was separated from his mother's womb as she fell from the towers trying to escape the inferno. I can't go back to 9/10, so I can never forgive any jihadist.
And it is absolutely false that these people will go away if you 'appease' them. You obviously didn't read the article. They blow up poor people, and the places where they work. They aren't fighting against imperialism, they are fighting to restore an empire. They already believe every women on earth is a slave. How could you make excuses for them? Does it make you feel better? Do you honestly believe giving the middle east to people who will wind it back to the middle ages will make the world a better place?
There is a case to be made against the US but please be a decent human being and don't make your case through jihadism.
islam does not wish to rewind time back to the middle ages.
the pinnacle of islamic society is iran. iran are currently building a nuclear power plant. that is hardly 15th century. what is 15th century is execution and torture and conquest. but america practices that anyway so has no right to bitch and whine.
why was your childhood ended that day? everyone watched those images. i was very close to the canary wharf bombing and it did not affect me. i was home sick watching 9-11 as it happened on tv. i'm not calling for the blood of anyone.
and you can negotiate with terrorists. we did it with the ira. the ira were nowhere near close to collapse. they were stronger than they had ever been and had just got their hands on some very tasty missles at the time of the mull of kintyre crash and the beginning of negotations. up until that point no progress had been made on the ira. we negotiated and within a year the war ended.
america was perfectly happy to support the jihadist in the 80's in afghanistan and it was perfectly happy to support genocidal nutters like sadamma (not actually islamic he was a secular).
do you think that the children in palsetine are greatly forgiving when an american built tank fires american built shells into their refugee camp. where the jurds happy when halabja was gassed from american built planes and america made gas? were iranians happy when america brought in the shah? are the uxbek people happy with their american backed nutter of a dictator? are the children and cripples and the tortured in quantananmo bay content with their treatment?
america felt all powerful. built on the shoulders of arrogance that noone could touch it. and so it could do what the hell it wanted. 9-11 showed that that wasn't true. it showed america that if you piss off enough people for that amount of time they will come back and be rather angry.
they hate us. and for what we have done they will not be happy with merely destroying a few buildings and killing a few thousand. they will be content either with our total and absolute destruction or for our end to out part in this.
read the quran. learn from it. and also learn what a jiahd is.
There is a big difference between seeing why the Islamo-Facists hate us (the west) and deciding that America deserves "worse than nuking New York". Yes, America has done some outright hypocritical, horrible things, but that doesn't mean that the average person on the street deserves to die for some backwater "Jihadist" or whatnot.
I learned what Islam was: you learn something that isn't foreign propaganda, now.
i never said americans deserved what happened that day. but until we understand exactly how badly these people hate us and why they hate us to such an extent. it's not about wanting conquest. it's basicly bloody revenge. that is what this is about. each time the russians bomb chechnya, the israels shell a refugee camp, america invades another islamic country these people get a wee bit angry about the whole thing and decide that revenge would make them happy.
we are not dealing with class a nutters. these aren't a group of folk who were in the pub and asked "what do you wanna do this tuesday?" "i dunno got any ideas" "wanna blow yourslef up in a night club" "sure sounds like fun"
these people are driven by hate. and not an unprovoked hate at that. it's not acceptance or condoning. it's understanding. and that is the way this war needs to be ended.