My Thoughts on Advent Children

I didnt like Advent Children for several reasons.

First of all, Im not really all that big a fan of the original FFVII. Sure it was a okay game, some points it was even great, but the game, the story and its characters, the music, and the overall challenge and design were all a step beneath the prior Final Fantasy, FFVI. When I first saw sepherioth, with his seven foot sword, girlish smile, bishonen long hair and V-neck leather I declared and prayed to the heavens not to let him be a main character. My outrage knew no bounds that he was the main villain, and its not just the fact that he looks like his life motto is "dont ask, dont tell" in every way possible he is inferior to characters like Eperor Geshtal who was so evil he slit the throat of a already dying woman just to kidnap her baby and turn the child into a living weapon, and kefka who needs no introduction. Then there was cloud, unlike most the cross dressing thing didnt really bother me considering it was done as a huge joke. Its just the fact that they gave him this badass mystique, revealed him to be a wimp, then tried to tell us that him, as a Final Fantasy equivelant to a rent-a-cop could withdraw a sword from his own midsection, and hurl the holder (by the point of his own sword no less) down a chasam was really pushing it. Then there was clouds moaning, weeping, angsty creed-like dialouge that often struck me as being beneath final fantasy considering how weighty the first six games had been.

Okay, I didnt find the main story so awesome, and the main antagonist and protagonist were less then captivating. Lets move on to the actual movie... which I can sum up with the words...

WTF!?!?!

Im not exactly the biggest fan of FFVII. But I do give it its props. But Advent Children was almost a complete vaccum of quality, filled instead with contrivance, idiocy, lost potential and redundancy. Lets take the animation values for starters. Watch much Hong Kong action flicks or anime? I do. and I found Advent Childrens animation and fight scenes to be very redundant of both. The whole flying and leaping thing can be compared to Such anime as Dragon Ball Z or such Wuxia flicks as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or hero. Ditto for the fight scenes and special powers as well. Also I found that alot of times the action in Advent Children felt wooden, like I was watching a puppet show or something. I wasnt expecting animation values on the level of Spritis Within (which by the way I feel is an immensely superior film, and a infinitely inferior final fantasy product) but c'mon at some points the action just felt so awful, like something out of a 1,000,000 dollar man episode.

Then there was the main character. Not characters, that would insinuate there was more then one. As soon as the film finished its rather boring ten minute long recap of the game (can anyone tell me what was the point of us seeing the ending of the game again at the beginning?) the film focused on cloud. And even IF I found cloud to be a likeable character (which I dont) didnt the moody mook sort out his psychosis back in the game? Why am I watching this looser work through his loneliness and bi-polar issues again? I had enough of it halfway through the game, I didnt need another hit while watching him do his best impression of Li Mu bai.

Then there was Tifa. Now Tifa may not have exactly embodied the essence of strong willed leading women in the game, but she did have her moments. Here she does nothing but serves as a punching bag for Loz and then acts as clouds cheerleader for the rest of the film. I love the scene where yuffie just gives her a sneer and comments on how stupid cloud is behaving. If Tifa had a backbone in this film, she'd slap him, throw a glass of cold water in his face and tell him to get off his his self pitying ass and get something done.

I'll finish my character asassination by commenting on the viallains. First of all could Kadaj had been any more boring? Maybe at the school of redundant bishonen acting 101, they teach you to dress in leather, say ambiguous villain talk and lather, rinse, repeat. But I do like my main villains to actually, you know, get something done or make a lick of sense. His master plan of kidnapping midgars children to turn them into his own cult of suicidal zombie ninja commadoes reminded of this one episode of GI Joe where cobra commander takes over a preschool and tries to make a class of 8 year olds into a crack commando team. (Except GI Joe did it better). And when you take your lessons in villainy from a lame 80's villain with a lisp, you suck. End of story. I know he's just a shell who's only purpose in life is to bring seph back, but I would have liked for him to be a bit more likeable. And when seph does come back, I was so bored. (Hey seph, you infect the planet and the human race with a disease made up of your conciousness, plan this elaborate resurrection scheme, and you dont know what your gonna do next? Can we just get Cobra Commander to be the villain next film? At least he had backup plans). All seph did was prance around, talk the ambigious stereotypical villain talk, and die. What was the point?

I'll tell you what the point was, and its Advent Childrens main flaw, it wasnt so much that it was a movie as it was a huge fanwank on square's most internationally successful title. Say what you will about spirits within, but whats the most common complaint about it? "It shouldnt have been called Final fantasy" is what the gaming crowd say about it. "It didnt even star any Final Fantasy characters". Gag me with a spoon for cyrin out loud, Sakaguchi and square work bloody hard to bring a legitamately intelligent and well thought out video game movie to theatres, and the video game crowd turned up their noses just because it didnt feature any moody bishonen? This is why video game movies since then suck, but make money. So yah, square took the rought of Super Mario Bros and the live action street fighter. It threw in every piece of Final Fantasy VII fanservice it could think of, and nothing else. Thats Advent Childrens greatest strength, and greatest weakness. Here's just a few examples of how most of the plot makes little to no sense.

Kadaj kidnaps and brainwashes midgars children, then just has them stand around waiting for bahamut to kill them. What was the point of kidnapping them then?

Cloud moaps for most of the film, and one pep talk from vincent later he's on top of the world? Give me a break.

I understand kadaj was a shell for sepherioth's thoughts and power. But what was the origin and point for the other two? It would have made more sense if all three stored a part of sepherioth. One the intellect, another the power, and the other the magic. That would have made so much more sense, and added to sephs coolness (what little there is) on the princible that no one human shell could contain his combined ability. As it was, the other two were just utterly pointless and served little real point to the plot.

The entire final fantasy cast is busy doing their own business, but bahamut shows up and they all coincidently just happen to be in the same neighborhood? Yah right convenient, couldnt they have done a bit more besides cheer on cloud?

Then there was the ending, They should have just let cloud DIE. Instead the lifestream brings him back. AGAIN! isnt this like the third time the lifestream has brought a dead person back? first seph when cloud throws him into the chasam, then clould when the crater collapses, then in this film. Seems there is so much traffic going through the lifestream these days they oughtta just build a subway terminal going through it. Would be alot less contrived.

And I really dont think we needed to see Aerieth and Zack at the end. They were more then just visiting spirits seeing as how Aerieth was tending too a sick child, and yes it answered the question as too who she loved, but It was still really pointless besides to give those idiots who still write poetry over her death a cheap thrill.

Then there was the beginning. You know, I want to be at the meeting where nomura pitched that idea. "Okay, wait for this, I have a BRILLIANT idea. I see Advent Children beginning.... with the same cinema that ENDED the Game! Ah, I am a Genius." Odds are the sheer fanboyish stupidity of that idea would trace the root of the rumored mental collapse of FFXII's initial director.

It wasnt ALL bad (just mostly) I loved the turks and reviewed the film too two and a half stars (rounded off to three stars for generosity sakes) based on their involvement. Reno and Rude's fight with the seph clones was great. Seeing them get in their licks after insulting jenova was priceless, and just the sheer antics from Rude always carrying a spare pair of shades to seeing those two clowns handle heavy explosives made for alot of much needed sincere entertainment. and Rufus went from Wily E Coyotee style corporate bumbling to having balls of sheer steel by the way he punked kadaj. Why couldnt those guys have been the main characters of the film? thats the REAL flaw. That writing and characters like that were relegated to second banana status.

there were alot of other issues I had, but I can stop now. Ive made enough of my point. As a video game Film, Advent Children is the cream of the crop. As a film period, it ranks beneath waterworld, and Gigli.

er...ok... so i take it that you don't really like FF7 or AC that much...

you know, As much as I bash on it, I did review it to a total of three out of five. It has alot of bad points, the plot makes no sense whatsoever, most of the dialouge is painful and juvenile, but the production values were decent, some of the fight scenes were entertaining, and rufus, the turks, yuffie and vincent were all entertaining. The film isnt the end all and be all alot of people will try and tell you it is, look past the flashy animation that does a bloody good job of fusing anime with HK kung fu direction, and you got a story thats thinner then a piece of wet tissue paper. And think about it, the statement "a few good moments and stellar production values" could be applied to Star Wars episodes 1 & 2 couldnt it? which we all know were utterly robbed at the oscars... :mad:

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First of all, Im not really all that big a fan of the original FFVII.

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stopped reading there
what's the point of watching this movie if you didn't like the game very much

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Im not exactly the biggest fan of FFVII. But I do give it its props.

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next time, read further.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

I'll tell you what the point was, and its Advent Childrens main flaw, it wasnt so much that it was a movie as it was a huge fanwank on square's most internationally successful title.

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That says everything. Yes, it was made for the fans of FF7.
Though I'm not that big fan of computer games now, but I really loved FF7 some years ago, thus I enjoyed the film. I do not say that it's the best film I've ever seen, but it's enjoyable, and brings back memories for me, when I was so obsessed with FF7, that I played through nights to finish it (I would not do this now).

yeh seriously, i enjoyed the movie heaps simply because i enjoyed the game... i think thats your problem right there. i could go through each individual argument you made, like "ah the beginning sucked, because it was the same scene on which the game ended" (which i thought was brilliant) or "oh cloud is a loser", and everytime i would come to the conclusion that "this is because i actually enjoyed the game!!"

and how the hell can u give it three stars!!! the only positive thing u said in your review was that the turks were cool... yay.

go read this thread...
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=70233
it seems to me that you dont have many friends on this issue.

i know its just your opinion, and i respect that, but what did you think peoples response was gonna be??

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You are complaining how the characters look like and you dont really like the game itself, its like jumping to the conclusion. I rather hear about why you hate the game first.

It's like a person who hate RPG game reviewing a RPG game.

Nothing wrong with a review from a different angle on the film :p

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

When I first saw sepherioth, with his seven foot sword, girlish smile, bishonen long hair and V-neck leather I declared and prayed to the heavens not to let him be a main character.

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So, what is the ideal Sephiroth's image in your mind? Everyone had their own ideal image of a character so you can't expect it to be able to suit your taste since the movie isn't made just for you.

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My outrage knew no bounds that he was the main villain, and its not just the fact that he looks like his life motto is "dont ask, dont tell" in every way possible he is inferior to characters like Eperor Geshtal who was so evil he slit the throat of a already dying woman just to kidnap her baby and turn the child into a living weapon, and kefka who needs no introduction.

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We know him pretty well in the game dun we?

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Then there was cloud, unlike most the cross dressing thing didnt really bother me considering it was done as a huge joke. Its just the fact that they gave him this badass mystique, revealed him to be a wimp, then tried to tell us that him, as a Final Fantasy equivelant to a rent-a-cop could withdraw a sword from his own midsection, and hurl the holder (by the point of his own sword no less) down a chasam was really pushing it. Then there was clouds moaning, weeping, angsty creed-like dialouge that often struck me as being beneath final fantasy considering how weighty the first six games had been.

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You can't expect every character to be alway strong,cool, unbeatable and kick everyone ass. We see Cloud's weak side and we too see his strong side, it is like a development of a character and make it more realisitic as everyone had their strong and weak sides.

What's wrong with moaning, weeping anyway.....Must a person never moan or weep to prove he is strong?

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Im not exactly the biggest fan of FFVII. But I do give it its props. But Advent Children was almost a complete vaccum of quality, filled instead with contrivance, idiocy, lost potential and redundancy. Lets take the animation values for starters. Watch much Hong Kong action flicks or anime? I do. and I found Advent Childrens animation and fight scenes to be very redundant of both. The whole flying and leaping thing can be compared to Such anime as Dragon Ball Z or such Wuxia flicks as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or hero. Ditto for the fight scenes and special powers as well. Also I found that alot of times the action in Advent Children felt wooden, like I was watching a puppet show or something. I wasnt expecting animation values on the level of Spritis Within (which by the way I feel is an immensely superior film, and a infinitely inferior final fantasy product) but c'mon at some points the action just felt so awful, like something out of a 1,000,000 dollar man episode.

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Sometime I do find it pretty incredible that they just fly all over the place and jumped up high rised buildings. But there isn't much wrong with that considering you can summon a dragon or monsters out of nowhere. That is a fantasy world.

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Then there was the main character. Not characters, that would insinuate there was more then one. As soon as the film finished its rather boring ten minute long recap of the game (can anyone tell me what was the point of us seeing the ending of the game again at the beginning?)

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To recap on your memory what happened or for those that never played the game, a brief idea on what happened.

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the film focused on cloud. And even IF I found cloud to be a likeable character (which I dont) didnt the moody mook sort out his psychosis back in the game? Why am I watching this looser work through his loneliness and bi-polar issues again? I had enough of it halfway through the game, I didnt need another hit while watching him do his best impression of Li Mu bai.

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If you dun like Cloud, then there isn't anything we can do about it since Square is the one intended Cloud to be the hero.

And what's wrong if he is really a loser, at least he strive hard not to be one.

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Then there was Tifa. Now Tifa may not have exactly embodied the essence of strong willed leading women in the game, but she did have her moments. Here she does nothing but serves as a punching bag for Loz and then acts as clouds cheerleader for the rest of the film. I love the scene where yuffie just gives her a sneer and comments on how stupid cloud is behaving. If Tifa had a backbone in this film, she'd slap him, throw a glass of cold water in his face and tell him to get off his his self pitying ass and get something done.

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Must Tifa or any character in the movie kick the bad guys ass the moment they see them to prove she/he is just so awesome?

And Tifa did tell Cloud off but just isn't as violent or "unique" as the way you described.

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I'll finish my character asassination by commenting on the viallains. First of all could Kadaj had been any more boring? Maybe at the school of redundant bishonen acting 101, they teach you to dress in leather, say ambiguous villain talk and lather, rinse, repeat. But I do like my main villains to actually, you know, get something done or make a lick of sense. His master plan of kidnapping midgars children to turn them into his own cult of suicidal zombie ninja commadoes reminded of this one episode of GI Joe where cobra commander takes over a preschool and tries to make a class of 8 year olds into a crack commando team. (Except GI Joe did it better). And when you take your lessons in villainy from a lame 80's villain with a lisp, you suck. End of story.

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His master plan is to get JENOVA's head back.......

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I know he's just a shell who's only purpose in life is to bring seph back, but I would have liked for him to be a bit more likeable. And when seph does come back, I was so bored. (Hey seph, you infect the planet and the human race with a disease made up of your conciousness, plan this elaborate resurrection scheme, and you dont know what your gonna do next? Can we just get Cobra Commander to be the villain next film? At least he had backup plans). All seph did was prance around, talk the ambigious stereotypical villain talk, and die. What was the point?

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To tell everyone what he and his alien mother intended to do.

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Kadaj kidnaps and brainwashes midgars children, then just has them stand around waiting for bahamut to kill them. What was the point of kidnapping them then?

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For the "Reunion" since they all have Geostigma....

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Cloud moaps for most of the film, and one pep talk from vincent later he's on top of the world? Give me a break.

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What's wrong with that? Must he go under intense counselling to be okay again?

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I understand kadaj was a shell for sepherioth's thoughts and power. But what was the origin and point for the other two? It would have made more sense if all three stored a part of sepherioth. One the intellect, another the power, and the other the magic. That would have made so much more sense, and added to sephs coolness (what little there is) on the princible that no one human shell could contain his combined ability. As it was, the other two were just utterly pointless and served little real point to the plot.

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If I remembered correctly, Kadaj mentioned "We can't be normal" so the WE might have mean the three of them. And here is my own deduction.

There is only one JENOVA head.

There are three of them, so only one of them can turn into Sephiroth.

But I am not sure about this one.

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The entire final fantasy cast is busy doing their own business, but bahamut shows up and they all coincidently just happen to be in the same neighborhood? Yah right convenient, couldnt they have done a bit more besides cheer on cloud?

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There are cellphones in the game......

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Then there was the ending, They should have just let cloud DIE. Instead the lifestream brings him back. AGAIN! isnt this like the third time the lifestream has brought a dead person back? first seph when cloud throws him into the chasam, then clould when the crater collapses, then in this film. Seems there is so much traffic going through the lifestream these days they oughtta just build a subway terminal going through it. Would be alot less contrived.

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Why can't Cloud live?

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And I really dont think we needed to see Aerieth and Zack at the end. They were more then just visiting spirits seeing as how Aerieth was tending too a sick child, and yes it answered the question as too who she loved, but It was still really pointless besides to give those idiots who still write poetry over her death a cheap thrill.

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It show Cloud finally let go of his guilt and these two which is part of his guilt bid farewell to him.

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Then there was the beginning. You know, I want to be at the meeting where nomura pitched that idea. "Okay, wait for this, I have a BRILLIANT idea. I see Advent Children beginning.... with the same cinema that ENDED the Game! Ah, I am a Genius." Odds are the sheer fanboyish stupidity of that idea would trace the root of the rumored mental collapse of FFXII's initial director.

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When a sequel is made, showing some footages of the original series is pretty normal, there isn't any wrong with it.

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Why couldnt those guys have been the main characters of the film? thats the REAL flaw. That writing and characters like that were relegated to second banana status.

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Cause they aren't the main character in the game to begin with. They are just supporting characters in the game and the movie. Besides, it is not up to you to decide who should be the main character.

And if they are the main characters of the movie, what will the story be? But who knows one day they will have a film made specifically for them or play "Before Crisis" which is based on turks.

If you want a movie specifically made for you as who you want the main character to be, then it is pretty tedious.

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there were alot of other issues I had, but I can stop now. Ive made enough of my point. As a video game Film, Advent Children is the cream of the crop. As a film period, it ranks beneath waterworld, and Gigli.

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It is a pretty interesting review from a different point of view I will said.

nicely told unknowns...

my thoughts exactly Ishin Ookami (had to copy and paste your name)

Im not saying this as an FFVII fan but I do think your reviews kinda dumb. Or wrong.

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But Advent Children was almost a complete vaccum of quality, filled instead with contrivance, idiocy, lost potential and redundancy. Lets take the animation values for starters. Watch much Hong Kong action flicks or anime? I do. and I found Advent Childrens animation and fight scenes to be very redundant of both. The whole flying and leaping thing can be compared to Such anime as Dragon Ball Z or such Wuxia flicks as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or hero. Ditto for the fight scenes and special powers as well. Also I found that alot of times the action in Advent Children felt wooden, like I was watching a puppet show or something. I wasnt expecting animation values on the level of Spritis Within (which by the way I feel is an immensely superior film, and a infinitely inferior final fantasy product) but c'mon at some points the action just felt so awful, like something out of a 1,000,000 dollar man episode.

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Its pretty much based on anime action. That was like, the whole point of the cg and not live action. To say the least I didnt see it as a bad thing.

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Then there was the main character. Not characters, that would insinuate there was more then one. As soon as the film finished its rather boring ten minute long recap of the game (can anyone tell me what was the point of us seeing the ending of the game again at the beginning?)

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Because its a sequel? I mean come on, your entitled to your opinion but thats freakin dumb question.

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the film focused on cloud. And even IF I found cloud to be a likeable character (which I dont) didnt the moody mook sort out his psychosis back in the game? Why am I watching this looser work through his loneliness and bi-polar issues again? I had enough of it halfway through the game, I didnt need another hit while watching him do his best impression of Li Mu bai.

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Hes the main character. Its meant to focus around him. Why is it anyones fault you watch movies about people you dont like?

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Then there was Tifa. Now Tifa may not have exactly embodied the essence of strong willed leading women in the game, but she did have her moments. Here she does nothing but serves as a punching bag for Loz and then acts as clouds cheerleader for the rest of the film. I love the scene where yuffie just gives her a sneer and comments on how stupid cloud is behaving. If Tifa had a backbone in this film, she'd slap him, throw a glass of cold water in his face and tell him to get off his his self pitying ass and get something done.

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Because every other character does that. Its not her job to do that.

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I'll finish my character asassination by commenting on the viallains. First of all could Kadaj had been any more boring? Maybe at the school of redundant bishonen acting 101, they teach you to dress in leather, say ambiguous villain talk and lather, rinse, repeat. But I do like my main villains to actually, you know, get something done or make a lick of sense. His master plan of kidnapping midgars children to turn them into his own cult of suicidal zombie ninja commadoes reminded of this one episode of GI Joe where cobra commander takes over a preschool and tries to make a class of 8 year olds into a crack commando team. (Except GI Joe did it better). And when you take your lessons in villainy from a lame 80's villain with a lisp, you suck. End of story.

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His master plan was to get a hold of Jenovas head/cells. The children were just a prop he used to get the better of Cloud and attarct the attnetion of Midgar citizens.

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I know he's just a shell who's only purpose in life is to bring seph back, but I would have liked for him to be a bit more likeable. And when seph does come back, I was so bored. (Hey seph, you infect the planet and the human race with a disease made up of your conciousness, plan this elaborate resurrection scheme, and you dont know what your gonna do next? Can we just get Cobra Commander to be the villain next film? At least he had backup plans). All seph did was prance around, talk the ambigious stereotypical villain talk, and die. What was the point?

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To end the Jenova thing once and for all. And I've been told good movies dont have deep plots. It was mainly for the entertaining action and the final showdown the fans had wanted. Sqaures good to give what its fans want.

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I'll tell you what the point was, and its Advent Childrens main flaw, it wasnt so much that it was a movie as it was a huge fanwank on square's most internationally successful title. Say what you will about spirits within, but whats the most common complaint about it? "It shouldnt have been called Final fantasy" is what the gaming crowd say about it. "It didnt even star any Final Fantasy characters". Gag me with a spoon for cyrin out loud, Sakaguchi and square work bloody hard to bring a legitamately intelligent and well thought out video game movie to theatres, and the video game crowd turned up their noses just because it didnt feature any moody bishonen? This is why video game movies since then suck, but make money.

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Persoanlly I didnt like Spirit Within because it was freakin boring. I, like most people who went to see it only did so because it said "Final Fantasy" and was severely dissapointed. But I dont really get why Spirit Within is in your rag on AC review.

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So yeah, square took the rought of Super Mario Bros and the live action street fighter. It threw in every piece of Final Fantasy VII fanservice it could think of, and nothing else. Thats Advent Childrens greatest strength, and greatest weakness. Here's just a few examples of how most of the plot makes little to no sense.

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Thats because action is actually entertaining. That was one thing the original game had going for it. entertainment.Also did you seriously not think the whole point of the movie was fan service? I mean come on, waitta miss the freaking obvious.

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Kadaj kidnaps and brainwashes midgars children, then just has them stand around waiting for bahamut to kill them. What was the point of kidnapping them then?

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It was a prop to get the better of Cloud. It gave him a hand over him.

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Cloud moaps for most of the film, and one pep talk from vincent later he's on top of the world? Give me a break.

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I get the feeling you'd moan just as much if it had been a long detailed struggle or hed continues moaping throughout the movie. One way or another your just gonna complain no matter what.

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I understand kadaj was a shell for sepherioth's thoughts and power. But what was the origin and point for the other two? It would have made more sense if all three stored a part of sepherioth. One the intellect, another the power, and the other the magic. That would have made so much more sense, and added to sephs coolness (what little there is) on the princible that no one human shell could contain his combined ability. As it was, the other two were just utterly pointless and served little real point to the plot.

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It was pretty clear that Kadaj's plan wasnt a one man job and they were the reason to so many of the fights you;ve praised. Honestly, how you can miss such obvious points.

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The entire final fantasy cast is busy doing their own business, but bahamut shows up and they all coincidently just happen to be in the same neighborhood? Yah right convenient, couldnt they have done a bit more besides cheer on cloud?

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They were fighting the dragon destroying the city. Also the fans would have been much more dissapointed if they hadnt been there in the first place. Cloud and Seph was a one on one fight. Thats what just about all the fans wanted.

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Then there was the ending, They should have just let cloud DIE. Instead the lifestream brings him back. AGAIN! isnt this like the third time the lifestream has brought a dead person back? first seph when cloud throws him into the chasam, then clould when the crater collapses, then in this film. Seems there is so much traffic going through the lifestream these days they oughtta just build a subway terminal going through it. Would be alot less contrived.

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Cloud just drifted from a collapsed building to the church a few miles down the road. Hardly a major coincidence.

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And I really dont think we needed to see Aerith and Zack at the end. They were more then just visiting spirits seeing as how Aerith was tending too a sick child, and yes it answered the question as too who she loved, but It was still really pointless besides to give those idiots who still write poetry over her death a cheap thrill.

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Its fanservice and a happy conclusion. You just answered your own question also. It was a sweet and nice ending
[QUOTE]

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Then there was the beginning. You know, I want to be at the meeting where nomura pitched that idea. "Okay, wait for this, I have a BRILLIANT idea. I see Advent Children beginning.... with the same cinema that ENDED the Game! Ah, I am a Genius." Odds are the sheer fanboyish stupidity of that idea would trace the root of the rumored mental collapse of FFXII's initial director.

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Yeah funny how those sequels work. At what point was it made out that Nomura thought it was a fantastic intelligent idea? Oh, your trying to be witty by playing dumb. Sorry about that.

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It wasnt ALL bad (just mostly) I loved the turks and reviewed the film too two and a half stars (rounded off to three stars for generosity sakes) based on their involvement. Reno and Rude's fight with the seph clones was great. Seeing them get in their licks after insulting jenova was priceless, and just the sheer antics from Rude always carrying a spare pair of shades to seeing those two clowns handle heavy explosives made for alot of much needed sincere entertainment. and Rufus went from Wily E Coyotee style corporate bumbling to having balls of sheer steel by the way he punked kadaj. Why couldnt those guys have been the main characters of the film? thats the REAL flaw. That writing and characters like that were relegated to second banana status.

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The film was made more for the fanboys who enjoyed the whole game. Not the Shinra fanboys like yourself.

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there were alot of other issues I had, but I can stop now. Ive made enough of my point. As a video game Film, Advent Children is the cream of the crop. As a film period, it ranks beneath waterworld, and Gigli.

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You only think that because you have such a low opinion of video game movies.

A half decent reviewer should know to review on what most people want as opposed to his own preferences. Or at least not to post his review where I can read it. You've just made a load of arguments about how a scene was pointless because you missed the point or didnt understand it.

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Sure it was a okay game, some points it was even great, but the game, the story and its characters, the music, and the overall challenge and design were all a step beneath the prior Final Fantasy, FFVI.

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Someone hates FFVII fan boys…

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When I first saw sepherioth, with his seven foot sword, girlish smile, bishonen long hair and V-neck leather I declared and prayed to the heavens not to let him be a main character.

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Wow, what a coincidence. That was my reaction when I saw that main antagonist in FFVI was a clown…

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My outrage knew no bounds that he was the main villain, and its not just the fact that he looks like his life motto is "dont ask, dont tell" in every way possible he is inferior to characters like Eperor Geshtal who was so evil he slit the throat of a already dying woman just to kidnap her baby and turn the child into a living weapon, and kefka who needs no introduction.

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Yeah, because you know, it wasn’t as if he tried to destroy the entire world with Meteor or anything.

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Then there was cloud, unlike most the cross dressing thing didnt really bother me considering it was done as a huge joke. Its just the fact that they gave him this badass mystique, revealed him to be a wimp, then tried to tell us that him, as a Final Fantasy equivelant to a rent-a-cop could withdraw a sword from his own midsection, and hurl the holder (by the point of his own sword no less) down a chasam was really pushing it.

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Sabin holds up a house. What was that about ridiculous strength?

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Then there was clouds moaning, weeping, angsty creed-like dialouge that often struck me as being beneath final fantasy considering how weighty the first six games had been.

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That’s strange; I didn’t notice this at all. Maybe I was just used to it, after listening to Terra whine for half the game that she’s different from everybody else.

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Okay, I didnt find the main story so awesome, and the main antagonist and protagonist were less then captivating. Lets move on to the actual movie... which I can sum up with the words...

WTF!?!?!

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That’s an abbreviation…

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Im not exactly the biggest fan of FFVII. But I do give it its props. But Advent Children was almost a complete vaccum of quality, filled instead with contrivance, idiocy, lost potential and redundancy. Lets take the animation values for starters. Watch much Hong Kong action flicks or anime? I do. and I found Advent Childrens animation and fight scenes to be very redundant of both.

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Wait, so which Anime and Hong Kong movies have the same standard animation as Advent children?

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The whole flying and leaping thing can be compared to Such anime as Dragon Ball Z

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Yeah…although when someone jumped in FFVII:AC, they just jumped. In Dragon Ball Z, someone says they are going to jump (approx. 3 mins), the villain tells them they can’t jump (approx. 5 mins) followed by about 20 mins of talking about the repercussions jumping might bring about. They then jump (1.5 seconds), and something explodes for no reason.

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Also I found that alot of times the action in Advent Children felt wooden, like I was watching a puppet show or something.

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If you can get a puppet to do any of the action scenes in AC, you’ll make a million dollars.

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I wasnt expecting animation values on the level of Spritis Within

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Why wouldn’t you? It would be easy to emulate the animation of a 200 million dollar movie!

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Then there was the main character. Not characters, that would insinuate there was more then one.

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OMG! You mean it only had one main character, just like 99% of films?! Blasphemy!

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As soon as the film finished its rather boring ten minute long recap of the game (can anyone tell me what was the point of us seeing the ending of the game again at the beginning?)

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It’s been 8 years! Of course they are going to recap what happened in the game!

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And even IF I found cloud to be a likeable character (which I dont) didnt the moody mook sort out his psychosis back in the game?

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Yeah, what gives? So what if he has a virus that will eventually kill him? That’s no reason to be depressed!

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Then there was Tifa. Now Tifa may not have exactly embodied the essence of strong willed leading women in the game, but she did have her moments. Here she does nothing but serves as a punching bag for Loz and then acts as clouds cheerleader for the rest of the film.

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Yeah…apart from the fact that she beats the [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] out of Loz to begin with, then he just knocks her down with his glove contraption. She also partakes in the Bahamut battle as well…

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If Tifa had a backbone in this film, she'd slap him, throw a glass of cold water in his face and tell him to get off his his self pitying ass and get something done.

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She has a loud mouth little girl to do that for her…

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I'll finish my character asassination by commenting on the viallains. First of all could Kadaj had been any more boring? Maybe at the school of redundant bishonen acting 101, they teach you to dress in leather, say ambiguous villain talk and lather, rinse, repeat. But I do like my main villains to actually, you know, get something done or make a lick of sense.

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He DOES turn into Sephiroth, that counts as something. And when you say, ‘make sense’, who exactly are you comparing him to? Kefka? He doesn’t even have motivations for his actions! He kills people for no reason!

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I know he's just a shell who's only purpose in life is to bring seph back, but I would have liked for him to be a bit more likeable.

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Since when are villains supposed to be likable? They’re VILLAINS.

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And when seph does come back, I was so bored. (Hey seph, you infect the planet and the human race with a disease made up of your conciousness, plan this elaborate resurrection scheme, and you dont know what your gonna do next?

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I’m not sure, but I think the part where he said “I’m going to use this planet as a ship”, implies that he new EXACTLY what he wanted to do next.

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All seph did was prance around, talk the ambigious stereotypical villain talk, and die. What was the point?

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Yeah, that’s exactly what happened. Oh wait, insert ‘insane CG battle scene’ in between his monologue and his death.

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I'll tell you what the point was, and its Advent Childrens main flaw, it wasnt so much that it was a movie as it was a huge fanwank on square's most internationally successful title.

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WHAT?! You mean the main reason they made the movie was to make money out of people, like 95% of sequels are designed to do?! YOU LIE!!!!!!!

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Gag me with a spoon for cyrin out loud, Sakaguchi and square work bloody hard to bring a legitamately intelligent and well thought out video game movie to theatres, and the video game crowd turned up their noses just because it didnt feature any moody bishonen?

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Yeah…so they got Alec Baldwin instead…

Hmm…

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Kadaj kidnaps and brainwashes midgars children, then just has them stand around waiting for bahamut to kill them. What was the point of kidnapping them then?

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It’s a reunion! Did you watch the movie/play the game at all?!

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Cloud moaps for most of the film, and one pep talk from vincent later he's on top of the world? Give me a break.

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It only runs for 100 mins. How long do you want an epiphany to be?

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I understand kadaj was a shell for sepherioth's thoughts and power. But what was the origin and point for the other two? It would have made more sense if all three stored a part of sepherioth. One the intellect, another the power, and the other the magic. That would have made so much more sense, and added to sephs coolness (what little there is) on the princible that no one human shell could contain his combined ability. As it was, the other two were just utterly pointless and served little real point to the plot.

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They’re called ‘henchmen’. Do they need another purpose? And Kadaj wasn’t ‘a part’ of Sephiroth at all. He just had more Jenova cells than the others, thus Sephiroth’s image was able to manifest in the same way that it manifested in FFVII.

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The entire final fantasy cast is busy doing their own business, but bahamut shows up and they all coincidently just happen to be in the same neighborhood? Yah right convenient, couldnt they have done a bit more besides cheer on cloud?

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You saw the Air Ship didn’t you? And they did FAR more than just cheer on Cloud…

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Then there was the ending, They should have just let cloud DIE. Instead the lifestream brings him back. AGAIN! isnt this like the third time the lifestream has brought a dead person back? first seph when cloud throws him into the chasam, then clould when the crater collapses, then in this film. Seems there is so much traffic going through the lifestream these days they oughtta just build a subway terminal going through it. Would be alot less contrived.

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At least they didn’t use a Pheonix Down…

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And I really dont think we needed to see Aerieth and Zack at the end. They were more then just visiting spirits seeing as how Aerieth was tending too a sick child, and yes it answered the question as too who she loved, but It was still really pointless besides to give those idiots who still write poetry over her death a cheap thrill.

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Wow, you complain about how the entire movie was just fan service, then fail to acknowledged the most obvious sign of it within the movie? Jesus Christ…

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Then there was the beginning. You know, I want to be at the meeting where nomura pitched that idea. "Okay, wait for this, I have a BRILLIANT idea. I see Advent Children beginning.... with the same cinema that ENDED the Game! Ah, I am a Genius." Odds are the sheer fanboyish stupidity of that idea would trace the root of the rumored mental collapse of FFXII's initial director.

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It was the best way to link the game with the movie. And I think you must be the only one complaining about seeing all of these FFVII FMV’s in updated CG…

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It wasnt ALL bad (just mostly) I loved the turks and reviewed the film too two and a half stars (rounded off to three stars for generosity sakes) based on their involvement. Reno and Rude's fight with the seph clones was great. Seeing them get in their licks after insulting jenova was priceless, and just the sheer antics from Rude always carrying a spare pair of shades to seeing those two clowns handle heavy explosives made for alot of much needed sincere entertainment. and Rufus went from Wily E Coyotee style corporate bumbling to having balls of sheer steel by the way he punked kadaj. Why couldnt those guys have been the main characters of the film? thats the REAL flaw. That writing and characters like that were relegated to second banana status.

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Maybe it was because they were minor characters in the game? This was based on the game after all…

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there were alot of other issues I had, but I can stop now. Ive made enough of my point. As a video game Film, Advent Children is the cream of the crop. As a film period, it ranks beneath waterworld, and Gigli.

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Wow, your entire review could have been summed up by “FFVII SUX FFVI RULZ”

The reason you decided to write such a lengthy review on a movie you hate is almost as mysterious as why I just wasted my time rebutting it…

the point was to make as much money as they could, therefor they went after the fanboy audience instead of the self opinionated reviewer audience, OBVIOUSLY a good choice, u just came to piss people off or so it seems.

You may have noticed that several people have already dissected your "review" quite thoroughly. I'm also going to do so, however, because none of the previous rebuttals actually fully analyzed your mistaken views on the plot, both of Advent Children and the original game.

There's nothing wrong with disliking FFVII, or Advent Children, or any additional facet of the Compilation of FFVII. However, your criticisms are almost wholly grounded in misconceptions, so I'll attempt to correct such misunderstandings as they arise in your "review."

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

I didnt like Advent Children for several reasons.

First of all, Im not really all that big a fan of the original FFVII. Sure it was a okay game, some points it was even great, but the game, the story and its characters, the music, and the overall challenge and design were all a step beneath the prior Final Fantasy, FFVI. When I first saw sepherioth, with his seven foot sword, girlish smile, bishonen long hair and V-neck leather I declared and prayed to the heavens not to let him be a main character. My outrage knew no bounds that he was the main villain, and its not just the fact that he looks like his life motto is "dont ask, dont tell" in every way possible he is inferior to characters like Eperor Geshtal who was so evil he slit the throat of a already dying woman just to kidnap her baby and turn the child into a living weapon, and kefka who needs no introduction.

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Kefka and Emperor Gestahl were adequate villains in their own right, but certainly wouldn't have suffered from a little more backstory. Sephiroth, for his part, has compex motives and an incredibly involved backstory. Kefka also has something of a "flamboyant" appearance, since that seems to bother you so much. This isn't, again, to criticize Gestahl or Kefka as characters, but your criticisms carry little weight when delivered in such a diatribe as the one quoted above.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Then there was cloud, unlike most the cross dressing thing didnt really bother me considering it was done as a huge joke. Its just the fact that they gave him this badass mystique, revealed him to be a wimp, then tried to tell us that him, as a Final Fantasy equivelant to a rent-a-cop could withdraw a sword from his own midsection, and hurl the holder (by the point of his own sword no less) down a chasam was really pushing it. Then there was clouds moaning, weeping, angsty creed-like dialouge that often struck me as being beneath final fantasy considering how weighty the first six games had been.

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Sephiroth's Masamune, in all likelihood, had pierced his shoulder, and not his "midsection." The entire point of that sequence was to explore Sephiroth's primary reason for desiring to antagonize Cloud, and to show what had really happened during the Nibelheim disaster. Cloud, given his inherent abilities, and the sheer anger that would have been directed at Seph at that point, was able to hurl him into the depths of the reactor.

I'm not sure how you can characterize the "first six games" as particularly weighy by criticizing the dialogue of FFVII (which, for its part, was not translated particularly well). The Light Warriors of FFI didn't even have dialogue. FFIV (originally released in the US as FFII) also suffered from bad (actually, worse) translation.

Even as is, Cloud's "angsty" speech isn't so much "angsty" as it is a commonly perpetuated stereotype.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Im not exactly the biggest fan of FFVII. But I do give it its props. But Advent Children was almost a complete vaccum of quality, filled instead with contrivance, idiocy, lost potential and redundancy. Lets take the animation values for starters. Watch much Hong Kong action flicks or anime? I do. and I found Advent Childrens animation and fight scenes to be very redundant of both. The whole flying and leaping thing can be compared to Such anime as Dragon Ball Z or such Wuxia flicks as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or hero. Ditto for the fight scenes and special powers as well. Also I found that alot of times the action in Advent Children felt wooden, like I was watching a puppet show or something. I wasnt expecting animation values on the level of Spritis Within (which by the way I feel is an immensely superior film, and a infinitely inferior final fantasy product) but c'mon at some points the action just felt so awful, like something out of a 1,000,000 dollar man episode.

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While this element is, of course, your own opinion (although I completely disagree with your assessment of the influences of the AC action), you remain the only reviewer out of the many I've seen that has criticized the action/fight sequences.

It's a problem on your end, really.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Then there was the main character. Not characters, that would insinuate there was more then one. As soon as the film finished its rather boring ten minute long recap of the game (can anyone tell me what was the point of us seeing the ending of the game again at the beginning?) the film focused on cloud. And even IF I found cloud to be a likeable character (which I dont) didnt the moody mook sort out his psychosis back in the game? Why am I watching this looser work through his loneliness and bi-polar issues again? I had enough of it halfway through the game, I didnt need another hit while watching him do his best impression of Li Mu bai.

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Time for some analysis.

The ending of FFVII was deliberately and profoundly ambiguous. The scene depicting Red XIII, which took place 500 years after the game, revealed that Gaia had survived, in spite of Bugenhagen's ominous predictions.

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Cloud: ......When the planet dies?

Bugenhagen: Ho Ho Hoooo. It may be tomorrow, or 100 years from now... But it's
not long off.

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and

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Bugenhagen: Listen, Nanaki. Cloud says they are trying to save the planet.
Honestly, I don't think it can be done. For even if they stop every reactor on
the planet, it's only going to postpone the inevitable. Even if they stop
Sephiroth, everything will perish. But, Nanaki. I've been thinking lately. I've
been thinking if there was anything WE could do, as a part of the planet,
something to help a planet already in misery... No matter what happens, isn't it
important to try? Am I just wishing against fate? I am too old to do something
about it... This year, you must go with them! For my sake.

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However, while AVALANCHE proved successful in its ultimate goal, and saved Gaia, the individual fates of the characters, and even humanity itself, were left unrevealed. That being said, Advent Children serves as the primary vehicle to explore those mysteries.

However, the fact remains that the "500 years later" ending did take place. Hence, AC reminds us of the ultimate success of the characters, while recalling FFVII and moving us into the actual events of the movie.

As to the matter of Marlene's retelling, it was a way to convey what had happened in the two years between FFVII and AC. Unless one has read Kazushige Nojima's novella On the Way to a Smile, which you evidently haven't, this sequence is necessary to introduce the phenomenon of Geostigma. Given that Geostigma is the most important new element introduced in the film, Marlene's recap is essentially necessary.

Cloud's "mood[iness]," as you put it, is primarily a consequence of certain events which took place between FFVII and AC, detailed in the "Case of Tifa" in the aforementioned On the Way to a Smile. Moreover, it's not so much moodiness as guilt; while Cloud's issues in the original game were derivative of his screwed-up identity, his character "flaws" in AC deal with his inability to deal with the deaths of those close to him, especially Aeris. The movie makes this clear, although the background can be found in the novella.

Oh, and I'd imagine having what was thought to be an invariably fatal illness is probably pretty depressing as well.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Then there was Tifa. Now Tifa may not have exactly embodied the essence of strong willed leading women in the game, but she did have her moments. Here she does nothing but serves as a punching bag for Loz and then acts as clouds cheerleader for the rest of the film. I love the scene where yuffie just gives her a sneer and comments on how stupid cloud is behaving. If Tifa had a backbone in this film, she'd slap him, throw a glass of cold water in his face and tell him to get off his his self pitying ass and get something done.

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Again, the dynamics of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is explicated in the "Case of Tifa," although you're basically the only person who faults her in-film character, even without resort to that pivotal novella. Tifa cares about Cloud, but understands that he needs to make his decisions for himself (recalling a critical motif from the original game). For her part, Tifa does encourage Cloud to "[do] something" after the two wake up in Seventh Heaven (having been brought back by Rude and Reno).

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

I'll finish my character asassination by commenting on the viallains. First of all could Kadaj had been any more boring? Maybe at the school of redundant bishonen acting 101, they teach you to dress in leather, say ambiguous villain talk and lather, rinse, repeat. But I do like my main villains to actually, you know, get something done or make a lick of sense. His master plan of kidnapping midgars children to turn them into his own cult of suicidal zombie ninja commadoes reminded of this one episode of GI Joe where cobra commander takes over a preschool and tries to make a class of 8 year olds into a crack commando team. (Except GI Joe did it better). And when you take your lessons in villainy from a lame 80's villain with a lisp, you suck. End of story. I know he's just a shell who's only purpose in life is to bring seph back, but I would have liked for him to be a bit more likeable. And when seph does come back, I was so bored. (Hey seph, you infect the planet and the human race with a disease made up of your conciousness, plan this elaborate resurrection scheme, and you dont know what your gonna do next? Can we just get Cobra Commander to be the villain next film? At least he had backup plans). All seph did was prance around, talk the ambigious stereotypical villain talk, and die. What was the point?

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Basically everything you said in this entire paragraph, from the perspective of the FFVII story and mythology, is wrong.

First off, Kadaj's master plan had nothing to do with any sort of suicide cult whatever the hell you were trying to say. Kidnapping the children brought together several key points. In addition to reestablishing the underlying themes of the movie, it allowed the SHM to lure Cloud to the Forgotten City. Moreover, as the children were afflicted with Geostigma, they were, really, kin to the SHM. Since Geostigma involves JENOVA, this also ties into the concept of again bringing about the Reunion. Still further, the children, ostensibly, could have been used to help locate the "head of JENOVA" once they had been infused by Kadaj's will.

Kadaj, for his part, is a rather complicated villain (actually, given his motives and "salvation," he somewhat reminds me of Kuja). Ignoring the incredibly complex Kabballistic symbolism inherent to FFVII and AC (and here Kadaj, whose name is derived from Kaddish [a Jewish prayer of mourning], can be better understood), one should appreciate what he actually was. Like Loz and Yazoo, Kadaj was a Remnant of Sephiroth, meaning he (and the other two SHM) were formed when Sephiroth's body was blown apart at the end of FFVII. As such, he carries with him the will to do the desire of his "mother," JENOVA, incapable of realizing that the wills of JENOVA and Sephiroth (an individual who, ironically, Kadaj doesn't understand) are essentially inseparable.

For the part of Sephiroth, he wasn't exactly resurrected, as he cannot truly die while JENOVA cells still exist. Presumably, the original biological material that comprised him has been eliminated (given the deaths of the SHM), but his will, in conjunction with the shapechanging aspect of JENOVA cells, can still take on and manifest a physically identical Sephiroth form. In this way, Sephiroth can be destroyed (repeatedly), but only actually be eliminated when JENOVA is also eliminated.

Also, as previously mentioned, Sephiroth knows exactly what he plans to do next. The Spirit Energy of those who die with Geostigma is contaminated; such Spirit Energy effectively creates what might be called a "Negative Lifestream." In time, this Negative Lifestream might actually overcome the Gaian Lifestream, giving Seph control over the planet. Moreover, it could then be used as a vehicle to travel the universe, simultaneously bringing about Sephiroth's own plan and the ultimate, immutable goal of the viruslike JENOVA.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

I'll tell you what the point was, and its Advent Childrens main flaw, it wasnt so much that it was a movie as it was a huge fanwank on square's most internationally successful title. Say what you will about spirits within, but whats the most common complaint about it? "It shouldnt have been called Final fantasy" is what the gaming crowd say about it. "It didnt even star any Final Fantasy characters". Gag me with a spoon for cyrin out loud, Sakaguchi and square work bloody hard to bring a legitamately intelligent and well thought out video game movie to theatres, and the video game crowd turned up their noses just because it didnt feature any moody bishonen? This is why video game movies since then suck, but make money. So yah, square took the rought of Super Mario Bros and the live action street fighter. It threw in every piece of Final Fantasy VII fanservice it could think of, and nothing else. Thats Advent Childrens greatest strength, and greatest weakness. Here's just a few examples of how most of the plot makes little to no sense.

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While I agree that The Spirits Within was both an excellent and underrated title, I find it ironic that you praise the movie when it basically shared the same key themes as FFVII (which you bashed earlier in your post).

Obviously, given everything I mentioned above (which you, apparently, missed), there was much more to Advent Children than simply the tenets of fanservice. I can't imagine that anyone would actually go so far as to compare AC to Super Mario Bros.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Kadaj kidnaps and brainwashes midgars children, then just has them stand around waiting for bahamut to kill them. What was the point of kidnapping them then?

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Um, in addition to the numerous reasons presented above, they also effectively kept the populace from interrupting Loz and Yazoo as they attempted to tear down the memorial (where they thought the head of JENOVA was being kept).

Moreover, Kadaj summoned Bahamut TREMOR for two reasons, neither of which even involved the children. First, it was able to do what Loz and Yazoo hadn't; demolish the memorial. It then looked through the rubble for the "head of JENOVA," which wasn't there. Further, given the destruction that Bahamut TREMOR could inflict on Edge, Kadaj hoped to force Rufus' hand and make him reveal the location of the "head of JENOVA."

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Cloud moaps for most of the film, and one pep talk from vincent later he's on top of the world? Give me a break.

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Cloud's guilt is washed away when he discovers that penance is possible. Of course, he's blaming himself for things that aren't really his fault in the first place, but having the burden of multiple deaths (Aeris, Zack, etc.) washed away would be a relief for anyone. Coming to terms with the death of someone close to you, especially when you were in some way involved, can be difficult. The removal of such a burden would certainly be freeing; one might also look to Ramza in Final Fantasy Tactics during the battle at Golgorand Execution Site.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

I understand kadaj was a shell for sepherioth's thoughts and power. But what was the origin and point for the other two? It would have made more sense if all three stored a part of sepherioth. One the intellect, another the power, and the other the magic. That would have made so much more sense, and added to sephs coolness (what little there is) on the princible that no one human shell could contain his combined ability. As it was, the other two were just utterly pointless and served little real point to the plot.

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Um, clearly you didn't understand what Kadaj was, as all three SHM actually were Remnants of Sephiroth. At the end of FFVII, when Sephiroth's body was blown apart, it reformed into the three SHM. All three SHM inherently felt the need for "Reunion;" in this case, the term ultimately means fusing the divided consciousness and biological material of Sephiroth (the SHM) with JENOVA cells. This would allow Sephiroth to effectively again manifest himself on Gaia.

In any case, Sephiroth clearly transcended the SHM, as they were mere aspects of him in the first place, and were subjects of his will. One might also note how much more powerful Sephiroth was than Kadaj, the leader and most powerful of the three "brothers." And even the "lesser" SHM, Loz and Yazoo, are extremely powerful; notice how easily Loz was able to defeat Tifa, a supremely gifted fighter in her own right.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

The entire final fantasy cast is busy doing their own business, but bahamut shows up and they all coincidently just happen to be in the same neighborhood? Yah right convenient, couldnt they have done a bit more besides cheer on cloud?

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The scene at the pool in the Forgotten City showed various messages from the members of AVALANCHE; these messages had been saved, and showed that all the party members retained an interest in Cloud, Tifa, and the goings-on in Midgar/Edge. Obviously, the means of communication existed, and Cid's new airship, the Sierra (or Shera, if previous translation is to be reflected) would have provided a means of quick transportation (also note that Yuffie parachutes in, just as the party parachuted into Midgar in the original game). Barret and Vincent, moreover, would have had particular reason to come to Midgar; Barret was known to be coming, to see Marlene, and Vincent was already aware of what was happening. Consequently, he arrived almost at the same time as Cloud.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Then there was the ending, They should have just let cloud DIE. Instead the lifestream brings him back. AGAIN! isnt this like the third time the lifestream has brought a dead person back? first seph when cloud throws him into the chasam, then clould when the crater collapses, then in this film. Seems there is so much traffic going through the lifestream these days they oughtta just build a subway terminal going through it. Would be alot less contrived.

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This paragraph, more than anything else, is why I've been so critical. No one has ever been "resurrected" by the Lifestream. Sephiroth had nothing to do with the Lifestream, as he is inherently opposed to it (JENOVA, Geostigma, the Negative Lifestream, you get the idea). However, as he had essentially merged with JENOVA on a physical level, he is endowed with many of the qualities of JENOVA; particularly, the fact that JENOVA's (and therefore Sephiroth's) cells remain alive even when separated. As such, his partially destroyed body could still be manifested as he pleased.

Cloud wasn't revived by the Lifestream; nothing physical even happened at the end of FFVII. The final battle between Cloud and Sephiroth took place in Cloud's mind, as evidenced by the fact that Cloud never moved from that ledge. Rather, as Cloud bore JENOVA cells, it was Sephiroth's last effort to control things before his complete defeat. Cloud, whose will was strengthened immeasurably by the realization and acceptance of his own identity, was able to easily repell this last effort by Seph.

Cloud's experience at the end of AC was more in the nature of a near death experience. Moreover, Cloud had been able to communicate with Aeris thorughout the movie, even when not in a position of near-death, and Aeris was clearly able to manifest her will throughout the movie (the healing of Geostigma, and so forth). Aeris might have used the Lifestream to help heal Cloud, but she could not have resurrected him. This is intrinsically opposed to the cyclical nature of the Lifestream, after all.

If resurrection was possible, Aeris might just as well have brought back herself and Zack. And Biggs, Wedge, Jessie, and whatever other characters one would like to see alive.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

And I really dont think we needed to see Aerieth and Zack at the end. They were more then just visiting spirits seeing as how Aerieth was tending too a sick child, and yes it answered the question as too who she loved, but It was still really pointless besides to give those idiots who still write poetry over her death a cheap thrill.

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This scene served several purposes. Beyond its symbolic nature, it was a fanservice, but not the one you suggest. Rather, it recalls the infamous "Aeris' ghost in the church" glitch in FFVII, where Aeris can be seen near the children by the flowers in the original game. More importantly, it represented Aeris' part in everything from the beginning, as well as her central role in healing the children, and also showed her finally moving away from Gaia.

Even ignoring this, there's no reason in and of itself that this scene should bother you.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Then there was the beginning. You know, I want to be at the meeting where nomura pitched that idea. "Okay, wait for this, I have a BRILLIANT idea. I see Advent Children beginning.... with the same cinema that ENDED the Game! Ah, I am a Genius." Odds are the sheer fanboyish stupidity of that idea would trace the root of the rumored mental collapse of FFXII's initial director.

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This has no point, other than to be sarcastic. It's not even a real criticism, just a rant.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Reno and Rude's fight with the seph clones was great.

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Calling the SHM Sephiroth Clones is just...wrong. Sephiroth Clones are humans who have been injected with JENOVA cells and infused with Mako. In particular, the CLONES are the survivors of the Nibelheim disaster, who were given JENOVA therapy by Hojo, and were seen in the game as black-garbed individuals with no free will.

The SHM, as repeatedly mentioned, were formed from the very body of Sephiroth. By FFVII terminology, they have nothing even to do with the Sephiroth Clones.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Seeing them get in their licks after insulting jenova was priceless, and just the sheer antics from Rude always carrying a spare pair of shades to seeing those two clowns handle heavy explosives made for alot of much needed sincere entertainment.

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Rude and Reno were the comic relief. Given that AC was a profoundly serious movie (minus their antics, of course), using two comical individuals as the main characters wouldn't have worked.

And, of course, there's the fact that AC is the sequel to FFVII. Not surprising that it would revolve around Cloud.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

and Rufus went from Wily E Coyotee style corporate bumbling to having balls of sheer steel by the way he punked kadaj. Why couldnt those guys have been the main characters of the film? thats the REAL flaw. That writing and characters like that were relegated to second banana status.

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Rufus was actually a very interesting character, as he unerwent genuine growth and development between FFVII and AC. That being said, he simply couldn't have carried the movie. Oh, and it was a sequel to FFVII.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

there were alot of other issues I had, but I can stop now. Ive made enough of my point. As a video game Film, Advent Children is the cream of the crop. As a film period, it ranks beneath waterworld, and Gigli.

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Given that you completely misunderstood just about everything that happened, you might want to consider watching the movie again, and rethinking your opinions. You probably won't change your mind, as I get the feeling that you're simply looking for reasons to dislike the movie, but it probably wouldn't hurt anyway.

What I wrote here wasnt so much a review, but a rant. An opinion. There are so many people here who will tell you why AC is such a good film, I wanted to see what the reply would be when I stated what I found wrong with the film. I like to think I dont have a terribly high standard for movies, as Im someone who was actually entertained by Phantom Menace despite the gunguns, Anakin and his "Yahooing" the film straight to the Razzies, and exploits of obi whine kenobi. Yet I consider advent children to be slightly better. my review for AC is on the reader review section of the gameinformer boards if anyone would like to see. This, was just my stating my opinions about the majority of AC's flaws.

Also, I really didnt mention. Some have stated in rebutting my original post that seph did more then prance, rant and die, that he had a "awesome" fight scene. I wouldnt call his and clouds fight awesome, more like a musical number. In anime and hong kong fight scenes, most of the time the directors are experienced enough to be able to tell a story and give you character info with the fights. A fight scene is more then fancy hopping, bopping, and kicking really high. Its using technique to overcome your opponents technique, and vice versa. Who has the better skills, who will tire out first, which opponent will make a fatal error and thus loose, these are the questions that make a good fight scene so dramatic. I consider Nomura to be a hack for many reasons, but the majority of the action scenes in Advent Children make my point for me. Very few, if any of the outcomes of the fight scenes in AC are determined by skill, technique, or stamina, its all a montage of flying, slashing, shooting, and dodging until someone gets licked the hardest. The fight scenes have the feel of wuxia and anime merged, but not the substance. In wuxia yes there is flying, there is chi blasts and the use of chi to poison, incapacitate, freeze, heal, ect. There is superhuman feats that beg the suspension of disbelief, but it all flows on a sense of logic and rules. Ditto for the majority of anime as well. But most of the fight scenes in AC just dont follow any logic as well. Prior to Clouds little pep rally with vincent he was getting his butt handed to him by the seph clones. Afterwrds he's kicking ass and taking names for no apparent reason. It would have been cool to see the seph trio use various techniques on him that succeeded prior, then see cloud countering those techniques. And sephs end was very anticlimatic, I mean c'mon a limit break? HUH? Is it too much to ask that there be SOME logic or flow to this movie or was it all used up for rufus, the turks, vincent and yuffie?

there is no acceptable ending to anything that would suprise anyone, therefor a limit break is well suited, and its not like that was the only limit break in the entire movie

Does that mean when Cloud uses omni slash he shouts "Omni slash" and Sephiroth shout "anti omni-slash" and counter the move. Then Cloud uses "anti-anti omni slash" and vice versa until someone with the most "anti" win since this show his technique overcome the others.

So bascially, one will use his technique and the other will wait there and observe how to counter his technique? This is a prove of skill?

Anyway, Loz did uses some special technique in the movie and Cloud uses blade beam to counter it.

So must Loz keep hitting the ground or uses some other fancy techniques and Cloud just keep using limit break to counter it until one give up?

Also, a limit break is a technique that you are talking about

Let's just say in a real fight, will you wait for your opponent to use his special kung fu technique and you counter it with one of yours special kung fu technique too. Then you wait for him to uses his other techniques or vice versa.
.

If you want some logic like how Cloud can uses Omni Slash and we can't, well, this movie is called "Final Fantasy VII Advent Children" done by people using creativity.

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Originally Posted by cl_out

Nothing wrong with a review from a different angle on the film :p

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Reviewing a movie is nothing about personal, you don't tell people how you think about the movie when you are reviewing it.

What he is doing is like:
"Omfg I hate Inuyasha because the characters basically look like the same, omfg the guy Inuyasha can hold a sword that big its not possible, omfg human can't use a bombarang that big, omfg the story sucks because I dont know whats going on".... and so on.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

next time, read further.

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i give legally blonde props
don't mean i'll see legally blonde 2 on my own accord

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Originally Posted by Not At All Reno

stopped reading there
what's the point of watching this movie if you didn't like the game very much

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Me too

Everyone except Masamune 1600 sounds like whining fan!!!!s. All you say is "why can't this be a good thing to have in a movie!" when you are "responding" to his rant. Thank you masamune for your intelligent reply. I have never played FF7 and AC did seem kinda random to me. I didn't like how everybody sucked vs. the bad guys in the beginning then suddenly they started owning them and jumping a million feet in the air. Maybe it's in the game, but throwing people 1000 ft into the air seemed to have no basis in anything that happened before. It didn't make sense to me.

Tifa didn't really seem to get owned by Loz until he cheated and did that little teleport trick.

All in all it had pretty good graphics, I liked those, and some decent fight scenes. If they had made it longer by adding some real story instead of a long string of fights I would call it a real movie. Obviously this would be hard because the whole premise of AC was rooted in FF7. For fanboys I guess this isn't a problem, but if you haven't beaten the game before, it will all seem a little too contrived.

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Originally Posted by RiTaPuffy

Reviewing a movie is nothing about personal, you don't tell people how you think about the movie when you are reviewing it.

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That made no sense whatsoever. That's what a review is.. Your opinion of the movie.

In anycase.. I liked the movie, but I have to agree with a few of his points.

Right...

I agree with everything "Masamune 1600" said(yes i did read all of it).

Everything that "Ishin Ookami" said is based on his misinterpretation( or i believe to be his assumption) of the story of FF7 and AC. All the storys in FF games have made sense as to what it in-tail in its plot if you dont understand it the first time, then you missed out on something that why you see the hundreds of threads asking about certain parts of FF7. Clearly "Masamune 1600" and most of the people on this site knows the whole story and plot to F77 and thats why your the only one bashing story elements that makes sense to everyone else.

You want a tip Ishin Ookami?

Before you make a long massive complaint about any game/movie/book, make sure you know the actual story etc and not thoughts based on your snap reaction assumptions.

I sugest you play FF7, read the two Novellas' and watch AC again and take in mind what every thing that "Masamune 1600" has told you, then come back to us with a proper review.

First off, any piece of media that requires you to watch/read/play another media just to know what is going on is automatically at fault for people not getting it. 90% of all sequels are standalone. You rarely will have had to watch the other movies. Some do and some pull it off well regardless, just by being great movies. Regardless of knowing what the backstory is, you can enjoy the movie because it gives you the details of what you need to know. AC is not that movie. Which makes everything he said valid, because the makers of the movie were to dense to gather that not everyone will want to read novellas or play every aspect of the game to "get it". The intro that tells the backs story tells alot of details of the plot of FF7, but gives you no info that is relevant to the plot of the movie.. Aside from Sephy was bad, someone died, and the planet saved us but cursed us. Any movie that has to use other products, movies or otherwise, as a crutch is just a product of bad film-making. Hell, most of the "cameos" remained nameless until the credits.

So yes, in the context of the game and the novellas and whatever other products SE considers canon, it may a decent flick with some awesome fight scenes. But, as a standalone flick, which nothing makes FF7:AC special, it would be reviewed as one, it's just plain [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img]ty filmwork with some pretty packaging. No media product should require you understand or even enjoy another product, to enjoy it.

As I said, I liked it. It was a pretty little reminder of a decent game that came out years ago. It had alot of eye-candy and was not a waste of 90 minutes. But that's it. If you love it, great. But don't beat the guy down for not treating it like the piece of brilliance you think it is.

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Originally Posted by Autumn Rain

That made no sense whatsoever. That's what a review is.. Your opinion of the movie.

In anycase.. I liked the movie, but I have to agree with most of his points.

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Then you have no idea how to review a movie, you are a bad reviewer thats all, period.

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Originally Posted by RiTaPuffy

Then you have no idea how to review a movie, you are a bad reviewer thats all, period.

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Oh please then, wise one. Enlighten me on how a review isn't what one thinks of a film. :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Autumn Rain

Any movie that has to use other products, movies or otherwise, as a crutch is just a product of bad film-making

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You cant say that it was bad film making, yes new people watching will proberly say "what the hell was that all about", but If their serious about wanting know the full story, then they'll play all aspects of the story FF7 story, then watch AC again and they'll understand. AC was made and based on the fact that you have already played FF7. The movie was never intended to bring new comers, but to satisfy the people who love FF7.

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Originally Posted by Russielloyd

You cant say that it was bad film making, yes new people watching will proberly say "what the hell was that all about", but If their serious about wanting know the full story, then they'll play all aspects of the story FF7 story. AC was made and based on the fact that you have already played FF7. The movie was never intended to bring new comers, but to satisfy the people who love FF7.

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But, you can't pretend that, as a movie, that it isn't a fault. When someone reviews a movie, they will be reviewing the movie, not every piece of work created about or before the movie. Movies are always going to be reviewed as stand-alone film, and as such will be found at fault for NOT being stand-alone.

... babo....

xD

Yes but the reviewer given the proper facts will know this apart of an on going story and would take that into consideration when reviewing the plot. Also though the reviewer would proberly point out how complex the story is for neww comers but at the same time would most deffinately point out, thats its a must see for all FF lovers.

EDIT: Vaprice, dont spam! its annoying and this is a good discusion here.

And as I said, with the proper facts the movie does make sense. But, it's still a fault, nonetheless. A pretty big fault, at that. Most sequels don't leave non-fans confused the whole movie.

And the movie could have easily been made nonfan-friendly. What I said about the intro is still intact. It gave a lot of info, but most of it had nothing to do with the plot of the movie. Nonfans didn't didn't need the plot of FF7, anymore than fans did. A quick overview of Jenova and Sephroth, with some tidbits about the group that took them on would have sufficed. Jenova DEFINATELY needed more explanation. And hell, Aerith's death isn't needed as they talk about it so often in the movie. In fact, it would have been an advantage, as it would be like a reveal to nonfans, as to why Cloud is slow to react.

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Originally Posted by Russielloyd

Yes but the reviewer given the proper facts will know this apart of an on going story and would take that into consideration when reviewing the plot. Also though the reviewer would proberly point out how complex the story is for neww comers but at the same time would most deffinately point out, thats its a must see for all FF lovers.

EDIT: Vaprice, dont spam! its annoying and this is a good discusion here.

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I'm sorry if I have offended you russielloyd almighty god. But seriously it really kinda isn't. Everyone already knew that this movie wasn't supposed to have the best of everything. The fighting is all they really needed anyways. It was just another way to milk money from the viewers.

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Originally Posted by Autumn Rain

And as I said, with the proper facts the movie does make sense. But, it's still a fault, nonetheless. A pretty big fault, at that. Most sequels don't leave non-fans confused the whole movie.

And the movie could have easily been made nonfan-friendly. What I said about the intro is still intact. It gave a lot of info, but most of it had nothing to do with the plot of the movie. Nonfans didn't didn't need the plot of FF7, anymore than fans did. A quick overview of Jenova and Sephroth, with some tidbits about the group that took them on would have sufficed. Jenova DEFINATELY needed more explanation. And hell, Aerith's death isn't needed as they talk about it so often in the movie. In fact, it would have been an advantage, as it would be like a reveal to nonfans, as to why Cloud is slow to react.

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The movie does tell you what happened previously, but it does tell you why cloud has become a loner because of Aeris but someone writing a official review, who are the people you think are going to read it? FF fans of course and people (except Ishin Ookami) already know the plot. Bearing in mind the movie was only meant to originally be 20 mins long. They turned it into a feature lengh film for the fans, as the books are and the 3 other FF7 games are to be. Just to answer those questions people ask about various things that happened in FF7.

Best thing to say is if your a Final Fantasy fan and youve FF7 then watch thiis movie and if your not a Final Fantasy fan and havent played FF7, either dont bother or just watch it for the almost life-like graphics.

If someone doesnt get the AC story then thats not SE fault as the movie is not for that person. SE are not gonna care about people who dont like FF are they and if they watch or not.

Also FF games are always based on the story firstly, thats what counts, if all people want is all action, then they should watch DOOM or HALO, when they come out.

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Originally Posted by Vaprice

The fighting is all they really needed anyways. It was just another way to milk money from the viewers.

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I enjoyed the movie, so they didnt milk any money out of me. And there going to need to make money arnt they, otherwise we know what happens...no more games, no more spending hourse on end learning another new story that people will argue over and get confused in the plot.

I still maintain that "for the fans" films are not special and would be reviewed as a normal movie. You can expect that DVD sites will prolly review the US release and will prolly dock it for that. And as I said, they could have easily done that opening different. You don't have to tell what everyone else knows, just what they NEED to know.

Plus, given how much they don't say about what you need to know, there wasn't much of a story there, so that's not much of an argument either.

But, to each his own, I guess. Just got off work, so heading home. Out.

We're yet to even play Before Crisis and Crisis Core which give even more detail on unexplained parts from FF7.

Anyways, me knowing all aspects of the story, i think its a good film and has a good story, the fights were good, specially the Buhamut scene and the cameos from the other characters, the only thing for me that i didnt like is that the movie moves on too fast. I agree with some people who said it could of been about 20 mins longer by dragging some of the scenes. I was happy with the ending, it was great way to end Clouds story, even though he does appear in DoC. Thats my opinion

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Originally Posted by Russielloyd

Yes but the reviewer given the proper facts will know this apart of an on going story and would take that into consideration when reviewing the plot. Also though the reviewer would proberly point out how complex the story is for neww comers but at the same time would most deffinately point out, thats its a must see for all FF lovers.

EDIT: Vaprice, dont spam! its annoying and this is a good discusion here.

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Im glad i could stimulate some good discussion, thats really the point behind these forums.

It seems like there really are alot of FFVII fanboys here, okay lets talk some turkey then shall we.

Ive talked about how there is little to no technique used in the fight scenes, and clouds using limit breaks doesnt count. Let me make a good example of technique vs technique. In Return of the Dragon, in the Bruce Li Vs Chuck Norris fight, Bruce and Chuck both fight using traditional Kung fu techniques. Initially Chuck is shown as having superior power, and dominates the first half of the fight. This is until Bruce switches to a more tai chi chuan style fighting art, that is more fluid and based on quickness and fluidity rather then power. Chuck cant keep up with the unpredictable attacks, where one form can seguae into ten other possible forms of attack, and the speed of Bruces technique wears him down. THIS is one example of how to apply the use of real world fight techniques to a fight scene. Another example woudl come from Dragonball Z, In the initial fight against vegeta Goku is completely outmatched. It takes teamwork from the lesser remaining fighters, bluffing, guile, bravery, and sacrifice along with luck just to end the fight in a draw. But despite the chi blasts and morphing into giant apes, there is a logical progression to the fight as all combatants are pushed to their limits.

look for any of this in the fight sceens in AC, there isnt any. Cloud is whupped on for the first half the film, and the second half he is unbeatable despite being blasted by bahamut and stabbed by sephiroth. And sephs death was just stupid, Ignoring the lack of logic of how cloud would have the power to pull off that sort of attack in what is his sixth or seventh consecutive major battle that day with a stab wound through his chest, sephiroth doesnt so much die cuz cloud had the better skill or technique, he dies because he forgets how to duck! Yah, there's a memorable end. I half expected cloud to give off a hearty "meep meep" after using his new limit break.

Next lets talk about the geostigma shall we, I believe one of my critics stated it as the crux of clouds relapse into depression. Ah yes, the vile and deadly affliction that is plauging all of midgar if not the planet. I mean it has such vile simptoms of a vile dark rash, cramps, (in clouds case) moodiness, bouts of nausea and fainting. Diabolical! Sephiroth has found a way to give all males on the planet a terminal case of PMS! :eek:

The geostigma was just another flaw in a script with all too many flaws as it is. Noone died from it, the most we ever saw was someone fainting from it. It was a plot device and a rather lame one at that.

Now Im going to wax critical about the plot again. Another critique or reply from a critic was that Kadajs two brothers were simply henchmen, which incorrect. They were just as equally jenova's children as kadaj was. Which is why it would be nice if they had a purpose to the script, or if square had gone the route of putting a portion of sephs conciousness in all three. That sort of plot device is a gold mine of possibilities, as it would give a chance to show sephs better half. Maybe there was a side of sephs personality that didnt want to kill aeries, seeing as she was sort of a thrice removed sister to him, and It would have been nice to see one of the seph clones bitching or hating the other two because they were the ones that shafted her. Or maybe seeing cloud beaten an inch of his life and saved by one of them because they carry the piece of sephs conciousness that once considered him a friend and has long felt guilty about the betrayal. Ive been thinking of this plot idea for the better part of a few hours as of posting this, imagine what a team of writers could have done with this idea if that team had existed, rather then nomura deciding he's just going to include as much FFVII fan service as possible instead of trying to write a good story. And its not like there wasnt room for more character development. Axe the lame subplot with the kamikaze zombie ninja commando 8 year olds, as well as the ten minute recap and you got over 30 minutes to include some character development. Hell, I would have settled with instead of spending ten minutes giving the fanboys warm fuzzies with the recap from the game, how bout spending that time telling us what all the main players have been doing since. Imagine Yuffie splitting her schedule between teaching at a new dojo at her village and materia hunting, or Cait Sith and Red XIII having an act at the golden saucer thus explaining just why Red gives cait piggy back rides these days. How bout showing cid's wife/girlfriend fussing about how he's hard at work on a new project that he wont tell her about, only to have her at the helm of the new airship when he shows up? I mean c'mon character flashbacks are nice, Character development is better. I recently purchased and viewed the sixth season of cheers last week, and If I could make notes on the character development of the less numerous cast of cheers in the first episode of season six, and the large cast of FFVII in the entire film of Advent children, Cheer's crib sheet would be the larger by far. There wasnt any development whatsoever in anyone besides vincent taking the lead and the turks becoming heroic backup. Maybe the majority of people here are so blinded by flashy CGI that they dont notice the sincere lack of a plot or character development, but as a person that preferred Dragon quest VII over Final Fantasy VII for alot of reasons, I can honestly say while the production values were impressive, I was not so impressed I failed to note the lame plot of the film.

Also a note to the fanboys trying to hate on me for bashing the film, look kids (and dont think I cant tell how old some people are here because no self respecting adult verbally attacks another person because they dont like their form of entertainment) you got a problem with my opinion, state yours and try to make a good argument. Thats the best way to put me to shame. My original post wasnt called "A review of Advent Children", thats posted over on gameinformer.com. It was called "My thoughts on Advent Children". This is a rant, and despite the more emotionally charged tone then a review should have, Id like to think my points were very solid.

Oh yah, and before I close off. Please exscuse if some spelling mistakes slip past. I often post in a rush and the spell checker on my computer is jacked for some reason, will have to reinstall it.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Im glad i could stimulate some good discussion, thats really the point behind these forums.

It seems like there really are alot of FFVII fanboys here, okay lets talk some turkey then shall we.

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I hate when people go on calling people fanboys or girls just because they like it and disagree with people who do like it. its annoying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Ive talked about how there is little to no technique used in the fight scenes, and clouds using limit breaks doesnt count. Let me make a good example of technique vs technique. In Return of the Dragon, in the Bruce Li Vs Chuck Norris fight, Bruce and Chuck both fight using traditional Kung fu techniques. Initially Chuck is shown as having superior power, and dominates the first half of the fight. This is until Bruce switches to a more tai chi chuan style fighting art, that is more fluid and based on quickness and fluidity rather then power. Chuck cant keep up with the unpredictable attacks, where one form can seguae into ten other possible forms of attack, and the speed of Bruces technique wears him down. THIS is one example of how to apply the use of real world fight techniques to a fight scene. Another example woudl come from Dragonball Z, In the initial fight against vegeta Goku is completely outmatched. It takes teamwork from the lesser remaining fighters, bluffing, guile, bravery, and sacrifice along with luck just to end the fight in a draw. But despite the chi blasts and morphing into giant apes, there is a logical progression to the fight as all combatants are pushed to their limits.

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Its been years since ive watch Bruce Lee and ive never watch Dragon Ball Z, so i cant posssible comment on those two, though how many techiniques are there when using a sword?

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Cloud is whupped on for the first half the film, and the second half he is unbeatable despite being blasted by bahamut and stabbed by sephiroth. And sephs death was just stupid, Ignoring the lack of logic of how cloud would have the power to pull off that sort of attack in what is his sixth or seventh consecutive major battle that day with a stab wound through his chest, sephiroth doesnt so much die cuz cloud had the better skill or technique, he dies because he forgets how to duck! Yah, there's a memorable end. I half expected cloud to give off a hearty "meep meep" after using his new limit break.

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This has already been said to you by "Masamune 1600" on several occaisions, or did you not bother to read his post? From up intill the battle in the Forgotten Forest, Cloud is burdened from how he couldnt save Aeris or Zack from Death, then it was up untill Speaking with Vincent who said what Cloud needed to hear, then Cloud is out to prove himself and to be forgiven. A burden can cause alot of stress and the inability to concentrate and not being able to fight at his best.

Did you also forget that this is a fantasy as the name of the title sugest "Final FANTASY", fantasy being the key word here. The move is still based on the rules of a FF game. Clouds power and strength is beyond anyones and only matched by Sephiroth. Septhiroth even asks Cloud how he got so strong. Ribbons are in it, Materia of course is in it, even Buhamut is in it, so why cant limit breaks or Cloud being so damn strong be in it? Because its not logic. Somehow you forget, FANTASY defys logic.

If your saying all of this, then surely Buhamut digging in the ground looking for JENOVAS head is wrong because you cant make him do that in the game.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Next lets talk about the geostigma shall we, I believe one of my critics stated it as the crux of clouds relapse into depression. Ah yes, the vile and deadly affliction that is plauging all of midgar if not the planet. I mean it has such vile simptoms of a vile dark rash, cramps, (in clouds case) moodiness, bouts of nausea and fainting. Diabolical! Sephiroth has found a way to give all males on the planet a terminal case of PMS! :eek:

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What are you talking about? The planet (not Sephiroth) gave people with the JENOVA cells "Geostigma" to kill them so the events in FF7 wouldnt happen again as the planet saw JENOVA as threat, which it is.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

The geostigma was just another flaw in a script with all too many flaws as it is. Noone died from it, the most we ever saw was someone fainting from it. It was a plot device and a rather lame one at that.

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People did die. AGAIN, read the novellas.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Now Im going to wax critical about the plot again. Another critique or reply from a critic was that Kadajs two brothers were simply henchmen, which incorrect. They were just as equally jenova's children as kadaj was. Which is why it would be nice if they had a purpose to the script, or if square had gone the route of putting a portion of sephs conciousness in all three. That sort of plot device is a gold mine of possibilities, as it would give a chance to show sephs better half. Maybe there was a side of sephs personality that didnt want to kill aeries, seeing as she was sort of a thrice removed sister to him, and It would have been nice to see one of the seph clones bitching or hating the other two because they were the ones that shafted her. Or maybe seeing cloud beaten an inch of his life and saved by one of them because they carry the piece of sephs conciousness that once considered him a friend and has long felt guilty about the betrayal. Ive been thinking of this plot idea for the better part of a few hours as of posting this, imagine what a team of writers could have done with this idea if that team had existed, rather then nomura deciding he's just going to include as much FFVII fan service as possible instead of trying to write a good story. And its not like there wasnt room for more character development. Axe the lame subplot with the kamikaze zombie ninja commando 8 year olds, as well as the ten minute recap and you got over 30 minutes to include some character development. Hell, I would have settled with instead of spending ten minutes giving the fanboys warm fuzzies with the recap from the game, how bout spending that time telling us what all the main players have been doing since. Imagine Yuffie splitting her schedule between teaching at a new dojo at her village and materia hunting, or Cait Sith and Red XIII having an act at the golden saucer thus explaining just why Red gives cait piggy back rides these days. How bout showing cid's wife/girlfriend fussing about how he's hard at work on a new project that he wont tell her about, only to have her at the helm of the new airship when he shows up? I mean c'mon character flashbacks are nice, Character development is better. I recently purchased and viewed the sixth season of cheers last week, and If I could make notes on the character development of the less numerous cast of cheers in the first episode of season six, and the large cast of FFVII in the entire film of Advent children, Cheer's crib sheet would be the larger by far. There wasnt any development whatsoever in anyone besides vincent taking the lead and the turks becoming heroic backup. Maybe the majority of people here are so blinded by flashy CGI that they dont notice the sincere lack of a plot or character development, but as a person that preferred Dragon quest VII over Final Fantasy VII for alot of reasons, I can honestly say while the production values were impressive, I was not so impressed I failed to note the lame plot of the film.

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What the hell are you talking? Kadaj and his gang are Sephiroth spilt into 3 (as you might say) with JENOVAs will. The reason theres no develpment in those characters because we already know them, plus its not their story, its all about Cloud or did you not notice that whem watching the film

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Also a note to the fanboys trying to hate on me for bashing the film, look kids (and dont think I cant tell how old some people are here because no self respecting adult verbally attacks another person because they dont like their form of entertainment) you got a problem with my opinion, state yours and try to make a good argument. Thats the best way to put me to shame. My original post wasnt called "A review of Advent Children", thats posted over on gameinformer.com. It was called "My thoughts on Advent Children". This is a rant, and despite the more emotionally charged tone then a review should have, Id like to think my points were very solid.

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The only way you can call this a review, is if you got your story right. You just wrote all this, when "Masamunes 1600'" explains all your inacuracies, which it look obvious you didnt read.

Your the bashing events in the movie that you clearly have no idea why it happens, when its obvious to see why and how it happens.

If you really like an play FF, then you should know on sidequests on the game reveals even more of the story. You give me the impression, that someone told you what happened in FF7 and that person had no clue as to what the story was about either. If you came back after playing FF7 and watching AC and then gave a review on genuine faults, then i respect it, but clearly you no hardly any of the story and why things happen for a certain reason, therefore i take your review as joke. Ill let the things that you dont know what happened in the 2 years between FFF7 and AC slide. just read them OK?

Also, if you didnt like FF7, then why the smurf did you watch AC for then? If you dont get what happens in the game, then your gonna be clueless watching the movie. Also noone would be so hateful if you got your facts write, its just obvious you didnt pay attention to FF7, AC or what people have been saying on here and being stubborn about it. If you was Johnathan Ross who knows nothing about FF then ok but your suppost to a be a big fan, being on these forums and all.

Take in what everyone has said, mainly "Masamune 1600", watch the film, when you get confused about something, just reffer past to his post.

If there anything your not sure on or why certain things can happen, just ask, everyone else does. I did and now i know. Masamune is normally the one to talk to about it.


My god, the letters on my keyboard are fading from so much typing. This is the most ive ever typed in a single message, someone give me an award! :D

the morale of the stories kids: is to read...

You still haven't reconciled your misconceptions regarding the plot.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Ive talked about how there is little to no technique used in the fight scenes, and clouds using limit breaks doesnt count. Let me make a good example of technique vs technique. In Return of the Dragon, in the Bruce Li Vs Chuck Norris fight, Bruce and Chuck both fight using traditional Kung fu techniques. Initially Chuck is shown as having superior power, and dominates the first half of the fight. This is until Bruce switches to a more tai chi chuan style fighting art, that is more fluid and based on quickness and fluidity rather then power. Chuck cant keep up with the unpredictable attacks, where one form can seguae into ten other possible forms of attack, and the speed of Bruces technique wears him down. THIS is one example of how to apply the use of real world fight techniques to a fight scene. Another example woudl come from Dragonball Z, In the initial fight against vegeta Goku is completely outmatched. It takes teamwork from the lesser remaining fighters, bluffing, guile, bravery, and sacrifice along with luck just to end the fight in a draw. But despite the chi blasts and morphing into giant apes, there is a logical progression to the fight as all combatants are pushed to their limits.

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Please refer to my response to your next paragraph; Cloud's results in battle arise from profoundly different internal conditions each time he fights. This would actually seem to be much deeper than utilizing a different fighting style.

As to using Dragonball Z as an example, your use of the word "sacrifice" is strange. I admit to being no expert on the series, but it's my impression that characters in the mythos are repeatedly resurrected, regardless of the events of a prior episode. Really, if they knew they were going to be resurrected, I know people who would die to help a friend win a five dollar bet. Advent Children, however, is bound to an immutable continuity; when the party members worked together in the battle against Bahamut TREMOR, they knew that death was a distinct and real possibility. This would seem to suggest to me a much more profound type of battle. Even if the DZ characters aren't aware of impending resurrection, the mere shattered continuity reduces any real significance in the eyes of the discerning viewer.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

look for any of this in the fight sceens in AC, there isnt any. Cloud is whupped on for the first half the film, and the second half he is unbeatable despite being blasted by bahamut and stabbed by sephiroth. And sephs death was just stupid, Ignoring the lack of logic of how cloud would have the power to pull off that sort of attack in what is his sixth or seventh consecutive major battle that day with a stab wound through his chest, sephiroth doesnt so much die cuz cloud had the better skill or technique, he dies because he forgets how to duck! Yah, there's a memorable end. I half expected cloud to give off a hearty "meep meep" after using his new limit break.

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Again, you've completely failed to take into account the inherent mythology of Gaia. Gaians are, according to Bugenhagen in FFVII, endowed with Spirit Energy. Given the incredible physical feats that Cloud is able to accomplish in AC, combined with the fact that Limit Breaks are most likely an expression of said Spirit Energy, Cloud's inherent "Spirit" is the primary explanation for his otherworldly strength, speed, and stamina. Given that we have no quantifiable equivalent of Spirit Energy in the real world, comparisons regarding matters such as stamina immeidately ring false.

Beyond that, however, you ignore several obvious changes in the situations in which Cloud fights. During his first battle, Cloud has no real desire to even fight. As Tifa tells Marlene in the church, she doesn't even believe Cloud plans on fighting his Geostigma (which, given that its definition involves extreme fatigue, would certainly detract from his fighting ability). During his second battle, at the Forgotten City, Cloud has determined to at least attempt to save the children. However, the burden of guilt still weighs heavily upon him. The visitation by Aeris immediately prior to his reaching the city demonstrates that. Here, Cloud's combat is at an altogether different level than the original bike battle; he wields two swords at once, successfully fends off both Loz and Yazoo, blocks bullets, and even utilizes Blade Beam to counter Loz's "localized earthquake."

Nevertheless, the rigors of Geostigma, combined with his own guilt (and, by extension, doubt), lead Cloud to fall. After being rescued by Vincent, Cloud's lines regarding not being able to save anyone are very telling. However, after deciding to try to expiate his "sins" (which, really, aren't sins), Cloud's enormous burden of guilt is lifted, allowing him to fight with an intensity not yet seen. After making this revelation to Tifa upon returning to Edge, Cloud is able to easily deal with Bahamut TREMOR.

As to his ability to jump through Bahamut TREMOR's [Mega] Flare, one must remember that Cloud is possessed of inordinately powerful Spirit Energy (the combined result of his simply having a powerful "Spirit," his Mako infusion, and his time spent in the Lifestream). For the other character, the Flare is something to be avoided; in their cases, it would likely result in instant death. Also note that Cloud's Spirit is reinforced by Aeris as he jumps through, as the power of the blast begins to visually take a toll (the appearance of the cut).

Kadaj, however, recovers the "head of JENOVA," and runs off with it. This induces another bike scene, a chase in which Cloud defeats both Loz and Yazoo. Much of this can be attributed to Cloud's more lucid and focused state of mind; note also, however, that it was not exactly a fight that ended after five seconds. The battle was somewhat protracted, but with Cloud fully intent on winning, he does just that.

However, the other primary aspect of his limitations, Gesotigma, affects Cloud when he intercepts Kadaj, racking his body with pain and preventing him from defeating the leader of the SHM. However, thanks to the intervention of Aeris and the Lifestream, Cloud is cleansed of his Gesotigma. The pain and fatigue involved is eliminated, and Cloud is able to engage with recourse to the full extent of his abilities. Even Kadaj, the most powerful figure in the world of FFVII outside of Cloud and Sephiroth, has no hope of defeating this Cloud, the full Cloud. Outmatched, Kadaj ends up hanging from a ledge, with his Souba (the double sword) having fallen far below.

At this point, with no other real options, Kadaj plunges into the unknown and follows his instinctual desire to merge with the cells of JENOVA. This, then, allows Sephiroth to again manifest his physical self on Gaia. Now, as powerful as Kadaj was, he doesn't have even a fraction of the power of Sephiroth. In this battle, in spite of Cloud's determination, Sephiroth remains (almost) entirely on the offensive. Further, unlike Cloud, Sephiroth can fly (Cloud can merely make superhuman leaps), which is both an advantage in the battle itself, and in maintaining the offensive. It also allows Seph to wear Cloud down to some extent. Ultimately, when Cloud slows down for a moment, Sephiroth is able to exploit the opening and stab Cloud through the shoulder. However, Sephiroth proceeds to cruelly mock everything that matters to Cloud, whether living or dead. Cloud then reveals the answer to the question originally posited in the first real trailer: it isn't merely for the children, or a memory, or himself. Everything is important to him, something Sephiroth cannot understand. At this, a coldly determined Cloud launches into Omnislash Version 5, an attack that, for all real purposes, cannot miss.

Thus, your entire quoted paragraph suffers from a continued lack of understanding. Cloud's "situation" clearly changes every fight. This explains the different results of battle, and also seems to tie in with your desire for "logic" in battle, except on a much deeper level. Also, your "blasted by Bahamut, stabbed by Sephiroth" argument bears no weight; you fail to consider the fact that Cloud is intrinsically prepared to deal with such a magical blast, and that he was aided as he moved through it. As to Sephiroth--well, Cloud never suffers a "stab wound through the chest." The blade clearly pierces his shoulder. In any case, Cloud's unique combination of Spirit Energy and personal emotion is obviously sufficient to overcome any adverse effects presented by the wound. As to the question of fatigue, Cloud obviously does tire toward the end of his climactic and apocalyptic duel with Sephiroth. However, bound up in what's really his soul, and particularly empowered by emotion, Cloud is able to execute an ability that is effectively an expression of Spirit Energy, a "substance" that obviously moves outside Cloud's fatigue. Finally, Sephiroth did not "forget how to duck." Given that Sephiroth appears to be the faster of the two combatants, despite Cloud's being fast enough to block bullets and react to Loz's flashes, he is unable even to react to Omnislash Version 5. Also note how Sephiroth remains suspended in midair, as do Cloud's swords. Neither Sephiroth nor the swords even begin to fall. Combined with Seph's own incredible speed, and lack of fatigue, we must conclude that Omnislash Version 5 took place at near instantaneous speed. Seph, like anything else on Gaia, would have had no way to possibly react to the attack.

As you can hopefully see, all of your criticisms here are grounded in a profound misunderstanding and unwillingness to consider the events of AC logically. You don't really have anything here.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Next lets talk about the geostigma shall we, I believe one of my critics stated it as the crux of clouds relapse into depression. Ah yes, the vile and deadly affliction that is plauging all of midgar if not the planet. I mean it has such vile simptoms of a vile dark rash, cramps, (in clouds case) moodiness, bouts of nausea and fainting. Diabolical! Sephiroth has found a way to give all males on the planet a terminal case of PMS! :eek:

The geostigma was just another flaw in a script with all too many flaws as it is. Noone died from it, the most we ever saw was someone fainting from it. It was a plot device and a rather lame one at that.

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Again, you've completely missed the thrust of the plot. Cloud's Geostigma was only a secondary reason for his morose, gloomy behavior; the obvious and primary (and explicitly stated) reason is the burden of guilt he carries.

As to the matter of "[nobody] d[ying] from [Geostigma]," you're again off the mark. Given that the movie explicitly states that there is no cure, that Cloud doesn't know how long he will live, that Marlene begs that Denzel not be taken away, and the entire matter of the Negative Lifestream (the result of the contaminated Spirit Energy from people who have died from Geostigma), it's enormously obvious that Geostigma is eventually and invariably fatal.

You might also consider reading, as I originally suggested, Kazushige Nojima's On the Way to a Smile. There, you will see several prominent characters, including Mrs. Levy (Reeve's mother) and Gaskin, die from Geostigma.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Now Im going to wax critical about the plot again.

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Of course you can't. I've already shown that you completely misunderstood almost everything that happened in the film, and there's no real way to defend your original arguments, as they're incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Another critique or reply from a critic was that Kadajs two brothers were simply henchmen, which incorrect. They were just as equally jenova's children as kadaj was. Which is why it would be nice if they had a purpose to the script, or if square had gone the route of putting a portion of sephs conciousness in all three.

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Did you even read my post? All three SHM are Remnants of Sephiroth, meaning that they are aspects of his biological body, and his divided consciousness. Logically, with adequate JENOVA cells, any one of the three could have been used for Sephiroth's return. Given, however, that Kadaj is the leader, and the most like Sephiroth physically, it stands to reason that he would be the one ultimately used for the transformation.

Moreover, the matter of the SHM involves symbolic issues as well. The SHM were intended to reflect the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity, as the three of them were effectively one--Sephiroth. This also maintains the heavy use of religious symbolism throughout the movie, as well as in the original game.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

That sort of plot device is a gold mine of possibilities, as it would give a chance to show sephs better half. Maybe there was a side of sephs personality that didnt want to kill aeries, seeing as she was sort of a thrice removed sister to him, and It would have been nice to see one of the seph clones bitching or hating the other two because they were the ones that shafted her.

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Ignoring the fact that the SHM aren't Sephiroth Clones, and that calling them such makes no sense in light of the FFVII mythology, Sephiroth was intended to be evil, and malicious, and sadistic. He's the villain. His motivations are understandable, in light of everything that has happened to him (and given that he effectively fused with JENOVA while in the womb), but it doesn't justify his actions.

Oh, and Aeris wasn't "sort of a thrice removed little sister to him." Aeris was an Ancient; Sephiroth is derived from JENOVA, a mysterious extraterrestrial entity which nearly wiped out the Cetra. Not only are they unrelated, they're diametrically opposed.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Or maybe seeing cloud beaten an inch of his life and saved by one of them because they carry the piece of sephs conciousness that once considered him a friend and has long felt guilty about the betrayal. Ive been thinking of this plot idea for the better part of a few hours as of posting this, imagine what a team of writers could have done with this idea if that team had existed, rather then nomura deciding he's just going to include as much FFVII fan service as possible instead of trying to write a good story.

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As to the game, by the way, Sephiroth never considered Cloud a friend. Until Cloud hurled him into the reactor, he probably didn't even notice him. Cloud, remember, was not a member of SOLDIER; the "Cloud" that interacted with Seph in the Kalm flashback was, effectively, Zack. I can understand that you disliked the original game, now, given that you missed the single most important plot point in the story.

Really, given what transpired, Sephiroth should have nothing but hate and resentment for Cloud.

Also, ignoring that you miss both the plot and symbolism in both the original game and Advent Children, Kazushige Nojima, not Tetsuya Nomura, was primarily responsible for the story of Advent Children. And, given that his story was based on what actually happened in FFVII, I'm inclined to prefer it to your take.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

And its not like there wasnt room for more character development. Axe the lame subplot with the kamikaze zombie ninja commando 8 year olds, as well as the ten minute recap and you got over 30 minutes to include some character development.

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I already explained the matter of the characters, as well as why your assessment of the children as "ninja commandos" is totally wrong. Please attempt to understand the story before continuing with this.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Hell, I would have settled with instead of spending ten minutes giving the fanboys warm fuzzies with the recap from the game, how bout spending that time telling us what all the main players have been doing since. Imagine Yuffie splitting her schedule between teaching at a new dojo at her village and materia hunting, or Cait Sith and Red XIII having an act at the golden saucer thus explaining just why Red gives cait piggy back rides these days. How bout showing cid's wife/girlfriend fussing about how he's hard at work on a new project that he wont tell her about, only to have her at the helm of the new airship when he shows up? I mean c'mon character flashbacks are nice, Character development is better. I recently purchased and viewed the sixth season of cheers last week, and If I could make notes on the character development of the less numerous cast of cheers in the first episode of season six, and the large cast of FFVII in the entire film of Advent children, Cheer's crib sheet would be the larger by far. There wasnt any development whatsoever in anyone besides vincent taking the lead and the turks becoming heroic backup. Maybe the majority of people here are so blinded by flashy CGI that they dont notice the sincere lack of a plot or character development, but as a person that preferred Dragon quest VII over Final Fantasy VII for alot of reasons, I can honestly say while the production values were impressive, I was not so impressed I failed to note the lame plot of the film.

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Actually, you completely missed the plots of both AC, and the original game. I'm not going to recap your errors again; refer to my original post.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Also a note to the fanboys trying to hate on me for bashing the film, look kids (and dont think I cant tell how old some people are here because no self respecting adult verbally attacks another person because they dont like their form of entertainment) you got a problem with my opinion, state yours and try to make a good argument. Thats the best way to put me to shame.

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While I generally despise "fanboyism" in general, I don't fault anyone who replied to your original post in such a manner, primarily because your own rhetoric was more vitriolic and erroneous than anything said in response. Also, your "opinions," as I showed, are firmly grounded in profound misconceptions.

I feel that I've personally presented a solid argument, although I don't see why a solid argument is needed when you yourself don't have one. You've presented, as you admit, a rant. There are going to be people who reply in kind.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

My original post wasnt called "A review of Advent Children", thats posted over on gameinformer.com. It was called "My thoughts on Advent Children". This is a rant, and despite the more emotionally charged tone then a review should have, Id like to think my points were very solid.

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I don't mean to be critical, but--they're not. Your points are generally based on a misunderstanding of what transpired, both in the original game and in the movie.

EDIT: Thanks for the vote of confidence, Russielloyd.

Nice one Masamune 1600.

Ishin Ookami please dont come back reply with the same stuff, it'll be like your getting kicked while your still down on the ground. If you read the story or play the game again which makes you understand AC fbetter and you still have things that you dont like that makes sense to us all, then fair enough. Till then what you say is laughable and also (as they say in court) thrown out and to be disredarded.

EDIT: No prob, Masa.

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Its been years since ive watch Bruce Lee and ive never watch Dragon Ball Z, so i cant posssible comment on those two, though how many techiniques are there when using a sword?

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Quite alot actually, I was going to write a huge disseration on various swords styles (I do study martial arts) but its enough to say that there are dozens, if not hundreads of schools out there with their own teachings and techniques on swordsmanship.

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This has already been said to you by "Masamune 1600" on several occaisions, or did you not bother to read his post? From up intill the battle in the Forgotten Forest, Cloud is burdened from how he couldnt save Aeris or Zack from Death, then it was up untill Speaking with Vincent who said what Cloud needed to hear, then Cloud is out to prove himself and to be forgiven. A burden can cause alot of stress and the inability to concentrate and not being able to fight at his best.

Did you also forget that this is a fantasy as the name of the title sugest "Final FANTASY", fantasy being the key word here. The move is still based on the rules of a FF game. Clouds power and strength is beyond anyones and only matched by Sephiroth. Septhiroth even asks Cloud how he got so strong. Ribbons are in it, Materia of course is in it, even Buhamut is in it, so why cant limit breaks or Cloud being so damn strong be in it? Because its not logic. Somehow you forget, FANTASY defys logic.

If your saying all of this, then surely Buhamut digging in the ground looking for JENOVAS head is wrong because you cant make him do that in the game.

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there have been dozens of replies and I am a busy person. I cant reply to everyone though I wish I could, the lesser well thought out replies though I tend to ignore but I will get to one of yours later on.

All vincent said to cloud was that he ought to test out whether forgiveness can be obtained, then all of a sudden cloud is busting out moves. All well and good but once again, there is little use of technique or counter attacking, taking advantage of an opponent who is loosing stamina or luring your opponent into openning his defence by tricking him into going all out and countering his carelessness. Its just alot of hopping, flying, and fancy camera tricks. I like my fantasy just fine, but even in the most fatastic novels there is some thread of logic or running princibles that cannot be ignored. Even in DragonBall Z, X, Ninja Scroll, and other anime AC drew upon for inspiration or the most ludicrous and unlikely feats of flying or leaping upon water or fighting with towels that wuxia is known for, there is a thread of logic. towels can be unflurreled and hit with deadly force because the wielder is injecting his chi, his sprit force into it and the spirit force is so strong it makes the towel very deadly (seen in iron monkey for refferrence). In crouching tiger or hero you see people leap from incredible distance in water, but this is actually done on the princible that combatants are using chi to create stepping stones. From a realistic point of view, it doesnt work. From a point of view of understanding the world that these people inhabit, it works fine. Ive played FFVII and as I remember cloud is like any other soldier member in the fact he was only injected with soldier cells. The possibility of the lifestream bestowing super human powers upon him is a possibility, but It wasnt mentioned in the film, or in the game. All he has is jenova cells in him which dozens of other people, including Vincent have. So if Aeries dies from a stabwound, or vincent died from getting shot, how come cloud survives that and worse? Bahamut blows up everything but the kitchen sink with his blasts, but cloud goes right through it like it was... well a cloud.

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What are you talking about? The planet (not Sephiroth) gave people with the JENOVA cells "Geostigma" to kill them so the events in FF7 wouldnt happen again as the planet saw JENOVA as threat, which it is.

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Nice dodge, but its not working. First of all your just trying to avoid talking about how lame the geostigma really was in the film. Second, vincent was saying something how the planet is infecting those with jenova cells, then seph shows up and claims responsibility which made alot more sense seeing as how the planet let the humans survive. and if the planet saw jenova as such a threat, how come it didnt go after jenova's neck when it sent the lifestream to take out meteor as well as letting the seph clones come back? and just incase you try to act all amnesia about what I said about the geostigma being lame, here's a reminder

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Next lets talk about the geostigma shall we, I believe one of my critics stated it as the crux of clouds relapse into depression. Ah yes, the vile and deadly affliction that is plauging all of midgar if not the planet. I mean it has such vile simptoms of a vile dark rash, cramps, (in clouds case) moodiness, bouts of nausea and fainting. Diabolical! Sephiroth has found a way to give all males on the planet a terminal case of PMS!

The geostigma was just another flaw in a script with all too many flaws as it is. Noone died from it, the most we ever saw was someone fainting from it. It was a plot device and a rather lame one at that.

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moving on

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People did die. AGAIN, read the novellas.

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Just to humor you, I did a search on google search. Points to you for being right on this one, but your still wrong. Square knows how powerful and effecting the medium of the cinema is, their ability to handle video game cinematics is the only thing keeping them in business right now. If they really wanted to make the Geostigma look nasty, they should have had people dying ON SCREEN! Or make the symptoms a bit more nastier in the film rather then just present the symptoms of a rather nasty bout of PMS. I was ranting on the movie, and pointing out its flaws. when I get around to reading the novella's I'll discuss them. but my opinion on the film and its handling of the geostigma reamains the same. It was a lame plot device that was little more then a rash. Clouds fighting abilities were not deminished in the least by it. and the fact that the novella's discuss it further does not dismiss how poorly it was handled in the film. there are numerous scenes that could have been cut or trimmed in favor of some grisley scenes of Geostigma mutilated patients in horrid agony. instead, we got males showing the aforementioned symptoms of PMS. lame.

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What the hell are you talking? Kadaj and his gang are Sephiroth spilt into 3 (as you might say) with JENOVAs will. The reason theres no develpment in those characters because we already know them, plus its not their story, its all about Cloud or did you not notice that whem watching the film

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Hey, Mr wizard? care to show me the scene in the film where kadaj or the other two flunkies got ANY kind of development? Or did that take place via novella as well? thats Advent Childrens problem, its pure fan service from the get go, leaving all major plot points to other sources. As for cloud, my problem from him stems from the fact I never did like bands like sum 41, creed, and other tween-angst fueled bands. Bands like that, and cloud in particular wear their angst in the same way I wear my best suit: As a fashion trend intended to draw a crowd. In the game Cloud had some serious issues, family and home town wiped out by his role model, he's showing signs of Disassociative Personality Disorder, Two major hotties like him for some inexplicable reason (ahem, sarcasm). Mans got damage. Yet the way he expresses it was so juvenile and poorly written. He's a twelve year old trying to comprehend some mature subject matter, and written with some VERY blatant plot contrivance. It sounds good on paper, and not so awful until you see how it was executed. Then the headaches start as you try to comprehend the logic of the man which is like trying to understand the nutrition located in a crispy kreame doughnut. Though I do give the doughnut points for being more charismatic.

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The only way you can call this a review, is if you got your story right. You just wrote all this, when "Masamunes 1600'" explains all your inacuracies, which it look obvious you didnt read.

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Ahem, let me review the statement you were replying too.

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My original post wasnt called "A review of Advent Children",

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Well, for once you agree with me. I dont call this a review either. lemme see where I put the title for this thread... I know its around here somewhere.... eureka! I found it.

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My Thoughts on Advent Children

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Hmmmmm, this is just a thesis, but as the title would indicate, this may be not so much a review is it could be a outpooring of thoughts and opinions.... backed up by explanations that you inexplicably ignore to satisfy your own predjudices, explanations such as...

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This is a rant, and despite the more emotionally charged tone then a review should have...

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So going by these statements, which you obviously ignore so you could vent your outrage at someone pointing at the holes of your sacred FFVII altar, this post is just an outpooring of opinion and observation, not a review. And FYI, within the same paragraph, it is stated my review is located on a seperate website. since you seem to abhor reading as much as your loathe writing, you probably havnt figured out where. which is probably all for the best.

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If you really like an play FF, then you should know on sidequests on the game reveals even more of the story. You give me the impression, that someone told you what happened in FF7 and that person had no clue as to what the story was about either. If you came back after playing FF7 and watching AC and then gave a review on genuine faults, then i respect it, but clearly you no hardly any of the story and why things happen for a certain reason, therefore i take your review as joke. Ill let the things that you dont know what happened in the 2 years between FFF7 and AC slide. just read them OK?

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as Ive already mentioned and addressed, I have indeed played FFVII and my points on its story stand. It was ridiculed in japan due to its lack of challenge and the story wasnt so much awful as it was redundant. This was from a company which not so long ago (in 1997)was rising to challenge Enix's reign as top RPG maker in japan, and now they released a game with little to no challenge and story and characters which were several notches below average. Just because you cant see past the cool FMV, dont try to invent conspiracy theories against those that can. I notice most of the critiques about the lameness of having the children in Advent Children turn into zombie, ninja kamikaze commando's or the lameness of geostigma you dodge by changing the topic or throwing accusations. "Did you actually read my post, or just have someone explain it to you". Incase you cant figure out the reason for the quotes, I was using irony to make my point. Dont throw accusations at someone just because you dont like what they have to say, and if you cant admit that the person has a valid point, and have to change the topic, then you really shouldnt post. I give you your props for mentioning the novellas, but that doesnt change the fact that AC features extremely below average story telling, it validates it. The fact that Square contracted actual writers to discuss the plot in other mediums while they make the film just shows how lame the story in AC really was, and validates my point of the film being less a film and more an exscuse for plenty of FFVII fan service.


The "Lifelike Animation" as you put it was poor at alot of points. the scenes with the major players "supposedly" moving at superhuman speeds looked like a poorly edited 1,000,000 dollar man episode. And lets not forget the gunguns had some lifelike animation as well, and we all know how well written and likeable they were.

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Also, if you didnt like FF7, then why the smurf did you watch AC for then? If you dont get what happens in the game, then your gonna be clueless watching the movie. Also noone would be so hateful if you got your facts write, its just obvious you didnt pay attention to FF7, AC or what people have been saying on here and being stubborn about it. If you was Johnathan Ross who knows nothing about FF then ok but your suppost to a be a big fan, being on these forums and all.

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Its late, so Im not going all the way back to the original post to quote myself again. Let me reiterate that I found FFVII to be a perfectly OK RPG. It was OK, I even mentioned that at times, I thought it was great. Let me repeat that since you seem not to comprehend something unless its repated. I thought it had some great moments But at the end it had alot of flaws, it was a lesser product compared to several 16-bit RPG's and 32-bit RPG's with lesser budgets. Ease up on the fanboy outrage for a moment and you might realise thats not an insult, just a fact. I was a sega fan back in the day, never touched a nintendo console until well after the end of the 16-bit generation, yet even back then I had no problem admitting that by all the info I could find, Final Fantasy VI was a better product then my favorite genesis RPG, Phantasy Star IV. And in my opinion I think PS4 was one hell of a game that I still bust out ten years later.

As to why I watched Advent Children, Im an open minded person and I thought I would give it a chance. And if you actually bothered to pay attention to my posts, I was entertained by the turks, Rufus, yuffie and vincent just slightly more then I was offended by all the awful writing and cloud relapsing and his affliction of male PMS. You should be thrilled that a critical mind can open up to the possibility that FFVII might be able to entertain if given a second chance, despite how thoroughly overrated I consider it.

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Take in what everyone has said, mainly "Masamune 1600", watch the film, when you get confused about something, just reffer past to his post.

If there anything your not sure on or why certain things can happen, just ask, everyone else does. I did and now i know. Masamune is normally the one to talk to about it.

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My apologies, its late, there are dozens of replies, and Its likely I wont have the time to sort through them all. would you or anyone else like to cut and paste?

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My god, the letters on my keyboard are fading from so much typing. This is the most ive ever typed in a single message, someone give me an award!

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I work in data entry, I write for a pan japanese/filipino magazine here in canada, and work part time as a tutor while studying to become a teacher. So guess what, typing alot is pretty much what I do. So no preaching to the choir now. :D

Listen to the O' Mighty Masamune 1600 for he speaks the truth...

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Originally Posted by Russielloyd

Nice one Masamune 1600.

Ishin Ookami please dont come back reply with the same stuff, it'll be like your getting kicked while your still down on the ground. If you read the story or play the game again which makes you understand AC fbetter and you still have things that you dont like that makes sense to us all, then fair enough. Till then what you say is laughable and also (as they say in court) thrown out and to be disredarded.

EDIT: No prob, Masa.

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meh, I ask for a review of masamunes comments, he does it for me before I even post. I like the service in this place. that and your comments actually were very well thought out, even if I respectfully disagree. But I dont have time for that now, Its late, I got a long saturday ahead. Im calling it a night. but I will get back to you later tomarrow masamune. A post that well thought out, if not misinformed, deserves a reply.

as for you, If you dont like what I got to say, you are free not to post in this thread anymore. Its not like you even bother to read through my threads thoroughly seeing as how often I have to repeat myself for your benefit.

Oh my goddess!! (Kelly Brook), "Masamune 1600" is going to have a field day.

I read all the post, im pointing the more important bits as to the lack of knowledge in FF7 and AC. Soldier cells...WTF?

Im tired and cant be othered to write anymore tonight but by the time i awake "Masamune 1600" would of replied and its safe to say hes got beatter knowledge and understanding to FF7 than i do and maybe he explain a bit better on what i said to the stuff you still disagree on.

I agree with Ishin in that they certainly didn't explain things in the movie very well. Why would I want to go hunt down some novellas about a video game so that I can understand a movie sequel? If I wanted to do that, I'd buy some of that horrendous myriad of star wars books. Should I have to read "Rogue Squadron" to understand Revenge of the Sith? (Now yes, those aren't the same timeline, but that's certainly a famous one of the SW universe books, and if you like go find ones that are set before the trilogy)

What Masamune said was good too, but later on in the thread I don't think he understood what Ishin was saying. You responded to his "part of sephiroth wants to be friends" (and the other parts) comment very harshly. He was just bouncing ideas around, not saying that's what he thought AC actually was like. It seemed to me that you replied to him as if you thought he was saying that.

Anyway, carry on....

What the hell, I got a fresh pack of ginsing tea on the shelf and protein bars in the fridge. I can make do with two hours sleep.

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As to using Dragonball Z as an example, your use of the word "sacrifice" is strange. I admit to being no expert on the series, but it's my impression that characters in the mythos are repeatedly resurrected, regardless of the events of a prior episode. Really, if they knew they were going to be resurrected, I know people who would die to help a friend win a five dollar bet. Advent Children, however, is bound to an immutable continuity; when the party members worked together in the battle against Bahamut TREMOR, they knew that death was a distinct and real possibility. This would seem to suggest to me a much more profound type of battle. Even if the DZ characters aren't aware of impending resurrection, the mere shattered continuity reduces any real significance in the eyes of the discerning viewer.

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You do have somewhat of a valid point, and I will give you props. Initially the princible was that the original dragonballs could not revive anyone more then once. Thus eliminating them as a deus ex machina plot deice that you are describing. Couple this with the fact that the majority of DBZ's heavy hitters got toasted by piccolo Daimyo (demon lord piccolo) in Dragon Ball and had to be resurrected initially meant that the heavy body count in the first few DBZ story arcs carried some heavy drama. Couple this with the fact that they were created by someone linked to piccolo, who had reformed and become a heroic character, and thus when piccolo died fighting vegeta it had alot of dramatic impact for Goku and co. The introduction of the namek dragon balls was irritating, yes. but the storyline itself was solid, with enough character development that the resurrection of the dragonballs, and continued deus ex machina style milking of them was... forgiveable. In much the same way I forgive the original Final Fantasy VII for not having much screen time for vincent, the androids and cell storylines ignored the Dragon balls for the most part, and focused on character growth, and the fact that Goku choose to remain dead at the end of the cell saga instead of using the dragon balls like everyone wanted was a sign toriyama had not run out of ideas. So considering that for several years, the Dragon Balls and their power of resurrection remained a minor plot element, actually served the series well. Yes by the end they are once again used to restore the population of earth and resurrect vegeta, but considering the show went several seasons without them being used in a major fashion... the majority of the shows fanbase forgives toriyama for it. It wasnt until GT, the third Dragonball series that they started to be abused relentlessly. But most ignore it on the basis that toriyama wasnt on board until the last few storyarcs to clean up the mess the original writers started.

but we are getting off topic yes?

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Again, you've completely failed to take into account the inherent mythology of Gaia. Gaians are, according to Bugenhagen in FFVII, endowed with Spirit Energy. Given the incredible physical feats that Cloud is able to accomplish in AC, combined with the fact that Limit Breaks are most likely an expression of said Spirit Energy, Cloud's inherent "Spirit" is the primary explanation for his otherworldly strength, speed, and stamina. Given that we have no quantifiable equivalent of Spirit Energy in the real world, comparisons regarding matters such as stamina immeidately ring false.

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You know, Im man enough to admit when Im licked. Maybe someday I'll have to admit it here, but not today.

all kidding aside, your familiarity with the mythology of FFVII's Gaia is remarkable, you have embraced what I considered a amusing piece of fluff storytelling. and for that, I salute you. But having an understanding of the wuxia and anime use of chi, I feel as though I can also make a respectable, if less informed then yourself, observation seeing as how the two seem to operate under similar princibles.

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Beyond that, however, you ignore several obvious changes in the situations in which Cloud fights. During his first battle, Cloud has no real desire to even fight. As Tifa tells Marlene in the church, she doesn't even believe Cloud plans on fighting his Geostigma (which, given that its definition involves extreme fatigue, would certainly detract from his fighting ability). During his second battle, at the Forgotten City, Cloud has determined to at least attempt to save the children. However, the burden of guilt still weighs heavily upon him. The visitation by Aeris immediately prior to his reaching the city demonstrates that. Here, Cloud's combat is at an altogether different level than the original bike battle; he wields two swords at once, successfully fends off both Loz and Yazoo, blocks bullets, and even utilizes Blade Beam to counter Loz's "localized earthquake."

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Again, well told. But my point is that there is little use of applicable technique. let me make another comparison. In Iron monkey, as Wong Ki yi and iron monkey battle the corrupt buddhist master, the master uses a cloth infused with his chi and attacks with it with irresistable force. Iron monkey counters it with his own chain and chi, and the two have a contest of pure power, which iron monkey looses as we see him pulled by the masters superior might. Wong ki yi uses this moment to attack the master who is distracted, thus causing him to loose the use of his weapon. An example of teamwork defeating a foe with superior skills with cunning, skill, and guile.

Where is such thought in AC? there isnt. thats the point. you wont find anything as well thought out and understandable in AC's fight scenes, and thats the main problem. AC imitates the style of HK cinema well enough, but not the substance. Let me make another, yet less well known anecdote.

Michelle yeoh has a picture named Wing Chun, in which she fights a opponent named flying babboon. Goofy name yes, but the guy has power coming out his ears, he initially defeats michelle yeoh twice in combat, with the aim that if she looses a third time she has to marry him. In the third fight, with some coaching from her master, she outsmarts him. While Flying babbon fights with a huge spear that requires five men to carry, she fights with dual butterfly blades, which are sharply curved, scimitar like weapons no longer then a persons forearm, made for quick slices. She then lures him into narrow canyons, small huts, and other enclosures in which the massive spear is a disadvantage, and whales on him. eventually he looses and as a result, him and his gang of thieves have to treat her like she is their mother for the rest of their lives. (hey, its meant to be a wacky comedy, and a damn good one at that).

this is what Im talking about when I mention technique. Fighting, martial arts, swordsmanship, its not about punching hard, kicking high, flipping and looking cool. There is an actual science, Fighting arts are referred to as "Art" for a damn good reason. even wuxia which is the fantasy version of Kung fu flicks has a mythology which it cannot ignore for the sake of sound storytelling. You state that clouds fighting ability increased when he was healed of the geostigma, yet before that he was fighting very well. And it would have been nice for there to be some thought and substance applied to Clouds growth.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE: In crouching tiger, we see jenn evolve from bratty princess to martial art legend. We see the evolution of her skills from her struggling with a lowly desert bandit to being able to fight head to head against a seasoned warrior like Michelle yeoh's charcter. Her skills, techniques, and ability all visibly improve. Her speed, her ability to handle a sword, her ability to counter attack various techniques all grow. It was evident and obvious, and we didnt need to see her defeat michelle yeoh or Chow yun fat to see her progression. The choreography told the tale without there needing to be a knockout. When she goes through a brief test of "who can land the touch of death first" with jade fox and proves she can kill her teacher anytime, its obvious it was superior just by the speed and lack of effort she used. It would have been nice to see the same expert choreography in AC. The fight scenes look good enough, but in reality they were very shallow. that is my problem. Clouds progress should have been obvious, like jenn in CTHD, moves that he had trouble pulling off initially should have been no problem at the end. Techniques that exhausted him in the first fight scene should have been childs play against Sephiroth. But there was no visible improvement by the choreography alone, just by the fact he was able to KO seph and kudaj.

Oh, and he didnt defeat loz and the other seph clone (who's name I can never remember, which is why I call them/him the seph clones/twins as inaccurate as I know it to be) Rude and Reno did by planting the explosives. THAT is how you outsmart a superior foe, they also proved they got superior grey matter by taking advantage of the momma's boys by dissing jenova and choosing that moment to go on the offensive. Also Rude did very well against Loz by just being very aggressive and vicious. I would have liked to see the same in depth direction of choregraphy in clouds fights, instead of just trying to make him seem like a badass with alot of fancy LOOKING choreography and little depth.

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Again, you've completely missed the thrust of the plot. Cloud's Geostigma was only a secondary reason for his morose, gloomy behavior; the obvious and primary (and explicitly stated) reason is the burden of guilt he carries.

As to the matter of "[nobody] d[ying] from [Geostigma]," you're again off the mark. Given that the movie explicitly states that there is no cure, that Cloud doesn't know how long he will live, that Marlene begs that Denzel not be taken away, and the entire matter of the Negative Lifestream (the result of the contaminated Spirit Energy from people who have died from Geostigma), it's enormously obvious that Geostigma is eventually and invariably fatal.

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Invariably fatal, possibly. But unless you read the novella's (which I havnt) you'd never guess that. As I stated before, it would have been so much more effective if we actually saw SOME severe suffering. Cough up some blood, loose an arm, writhe in agony and infinite torment dammit. show me this is something more freakier then the male version of PMS. You cannot deny it would have been ALOT more effective in creating drama if this had been done ON SCREEN. Nix the zombie ninja kamikaze commando 8 year olds bit, and you have plenty of time to accomplish this. By the way, why doesnt anyone take me up on a verbal debate regarding THAT little subplot? Any Takers? :D

Again, you've completely missed the thrust of the plot. Cloud's Geostigma was only a secondary reason for his morose, gloomy behavior; the obvious and primary (and explicitly stated) reason is the burden of guilt he carries.

As to the matter of "[nobody] d[ying] from [Geostigma]," you're again off the mark. Given that the movie explicitly states that there is no cure, that Cloud doesn't know how long he will live, that Marlene begs that Denzel not be taken away, and the entire matter of the Negative Lifestream (the result of the contaminated Spirit Energy from people who have died from Geostigma), it's enormously obvious that Geostigma is eventually and invariably fatal.

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You might also consider reading, as I originally suggested, Kazushige Nojima's On the Way to a Smile. There, you will see several prominent characters, including Mrs. Levy (Reeve's mother) and Gaskin, die from Geostigma.

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Already stated to the guy with aeries pic in his sig that I havnt read them wasnt even aware of them until I did a google search earlier. I will get around to it, but my point stands. The fact that square DIDNT think these details needed to be included in the film, only proves where their priorities were in making AC. The story of the film would have been alot stronger. Im a huge fan of star wars, have read all the novels and most of the comics, yet when I watch the films I grade them on how good the films are, not how good they are as companions to the novels or comics. Same princible applies here, I cant comment on how good the novella's are until I read them, but the fact that AC is is incomplete without having read them just reinforces how poorly written a film it is. Im a mega fan of star wars, can tell you all about the fetts, mandalorian armor, the force and the jedi, yet I still hold episodes 1 and 2 in low regard despite how much more entertaining they are if I apply the background info from the books Ive read. AC is marketed as the sequal to FFVII, and a standalone film, and thats how I judge it and look at it. My appreciation for the story may go up after reading the novels, but my appreciation for the cinematic endeavor will remain the same.

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Did you even read my post? All three SHM are Remnants of Sephiroth, meaning that they are aspects of his biological body, and his divided consciousness. Logically, with adequate JENOVA cells, any one of the three could have been used for Sephiroth's return. Given, however, that Kadaj is the leader, and the most like Sephiroth physically, it stands to reason that he would be the one ultimately used for the transformation.

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As Ive already stated, There are dozens of replies, and I cant realistically reply to everyone and keep the discussion current can I? No offence to yourself, and If I miss anything or you feel disrespected dont take it personally, feel free to PM me if you feel I missed something, but stating so would derail the conversation at hand.

I assume the three were developed in a seperate novella? Already discussed the weakness in doing that.

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Moreover, the matter of the SHM involves symbolic issues as well. The SHM were intended to reflect the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity, as the three of them were effectively one--Sephiroth. This also maintains the heavy use of religious symbolism throughout the movie, as well as in the original game

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OMFG, they refferrenced christianity, thats SOOO cool.

Im a christian, and while I dont know my bible backwards and forewards, I know it well enough to refute any ignorant critiques against my beliefs (and to those who dont know when to keep a inappropriate discussion out of a thread, if you have any questions or critiques about my beliefs, send em via pm. Had a few sad experiences on past message boards). So maybe it has less shock value to myself when biblical themes get mentioned. Xenogears use of angels, god, and religion I thought was well thought out and entertaining, and anyone who would be offended by that needs to get deeper into their bible, and/or just grow up.

As for the seph trio being influenced by the holy trinity, the significance of it is that the Father (god, the creator) the son (jesus, god in the flesh and the son of god) and the holy spirit (the spiritual pressence and guide of the son that is bestowed upon all believers at the time of baptism) are different, yet the same. They are all one at the same time they are seperate entities. It would take months to only partially explain so dont bother asking. But I fail to see how the seph trio are in any way reminiscent of this. Kadaj would if anything be the closest to sephs son, but what would that make the other two in this comparison? Where are you getting this biblical comparison from?

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Ignoring the fact that the SHM aren't Sephiroth Clones, and that calling them such makes no sense in light of the FFVII mythology, Sephiroth was intended to be evil, and malicious, and sadistic. He's the villain. His motivations are understandable, in light of everything that has happened to him (and given that he effectively fused with JENOVA while in the womb), but it doesn't justify his actions.

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Im sorry, lets compare villains shall we, my standard for evil villainy is defined by FFVI's Emperor Geshtal Slitting the throat of terra's mother, who was at deaths doorstep already, just to make sure terra would grow up without love and become a heartless, soulless weapon is sheer villainy. Sephiroth burned down one hick town, gutted one church girl, and summoned meteor to do the dirty work he could not. Hell, If you think Im being unfair, be thankful I dont compare him to kefka or Krillan from xenogears.

Okay, so Seph wasnt the most despicable villain ever, he did some bad things, but he's not the most diabolical thing ever.

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Oh, and Aeris wasn't "sort of a thrice removed little sister to him." Aeris was an Ancient; Sephiroth is derived from JENOVA, a mysterious extraterrestrial entity which nearly wiped out the Cetra. Not only are they unrelated, they're diametrically opposed

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Next, maybe its just the fact you are alot more familiar with the subject matter then myself, but But I was under the impression Jenova descended from the ancients, as was Aeries? I was lucky enough to play FFVII before the disgaea's and xenogears of gamingdom, thus explaining why I enjoyed it as much as I did. I doubt I could stay awake were I to give it another round in today's gaming world. I havnt even finished Atelier Isis or Makai Kingdom yet. If Im wrong, I fully concede this point to your superior familiarity with the source material.

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As to the game, by the way, Sephiroth never considered Cloud a friend. Until Cloud hurled him into the reactor, he probably didn't even notice him. Cloud, remember, was not a member of SOLDIER; the "Cloud" that interacted with Seph in the Kalm flashback was, effectively, Zack. I can understand that you disliked the original game, now, given that you missed the single most important plot point in the story.

Really, given what transpired, Sephiroth should have nothing but hate and resentment for Cloud.

Also, ignoring that you miss both the plot and symbolism in both the original game and Advent Children, Kazushige Nojima, not Tetsuya Nomura, was primarily responsible for the story of Advent Children. And, given that his story was based on what actually happened in FFVII, I'm inclined to prefer it to your take.

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First of all, it was eight years ago, and even the fiction I take seriously, like the star wars mythos I dont so much live and breath as much as I am entertained by it. hence why I keep a selection of source material and the highest quality stories on my shelf to keep me refreshed incase the rigors and responsibilities of day to day life cause my recollection of this hobby to slip.

Second, my point is that Seph was a humane person once. He valued life and genuinely cared. Its not so much that I didnt remember who cloud really was during that flashback, as seph seemed to consider EVERYONE a comrade. That and cloud was the only one next to seph when they fought that dragon, yet seph used a pheonix down to revive him and showed concern. Thus showing that cloud may have indeed been on more familiar terms rather then him being all diassociative during the entire flashback.

So having one of the SHM (what does that mean anyway?) having a lingering element of seph's former humanity would have been refreshing, and having that played upon would have triggered some much needed development of the character. I would have preferred it if seph had flown off into the sunset to deal with his now devided psyche rather then forget to duck and vow not to remain a memory. the former would be actual development of the character. The latter was just lame and contrived. I admit, I lack the level of familiarity with this particular mytholgy that you have, but that does not escuse in the slightest poor and contrived story telling on AC's part.

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I already explained the matter of the characters, as well as why your assessment of the children as "ninja commandos" is totally wrong. Please attempt to understand the story before continuing with this.

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As I stated, it is not realistically possible for me to keep this conversation relevent and current, while replying to everyone.

also, skip the specifics and just try explaining how having the kids drink up and become all cult like (espescially when denzelle or whatever his name is is seeing his friend held hostage) makes a lick of sense. Kudaj's speech about the planet hating the children, and how he will save them had alot of paralells to the first ninja turtels live action film where shredder is talking about how society hates the kids he has recruited, but he accepts them as family. Then what was the point of having them act all zombie ninja like in one scene, then have them be all kamikaze like the next? How is this good storytelling? Is there a novella the explain this BS as well? Im sorry, but I dont care if you cone dickens, shakesphere, and mark twain back to life to work together to write a novella trying to justify that garbage, it was weak and the writers knew it. But instead of spending an extra million creating new footage, they decided to instead of use the children as hostages and fodder to keep the hero's busy.

Hey masamune, I respect your points, I respect your knowledge, I respect your presentation and how well thought out it is, but the film is still a poor example of storytelling. No fancy CGI or novella can change that, only serve as a band aid to hide the gash.

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Originally Posted by Russ80

I agree with Ishin in that they certainly didn't explain things in the movie very well. Why would I want to go hunt down some novellas about a video game so that I can understand a movie sequel? If I wanted to do that, I'd buy some of that horrendous myriad of star wars books. Should I have to read "Rogue Squadron" to understand Revenge of the Sith? (Now yes, those aren't the same timeline, but that's certainly a famous one of the SW universe books, and if you like go find ones that are set before the trilogy)

Anyway, carry on....

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You know, the delicious irony of that post is that I didnt even READ your post before posting what I said about my being a fan of the star wars novels, yet still thought the first two star wars prequels sucked despite how much knowing the background of the events during this time period, as was discussed in the comics and novels (such as the evolution of lightsabres, and how the double bladed lightsabre came to be) made them better stories. the first two prequels still sucked regardless, and having to have read a few novels just to understand the films better only validated the poor storytelling in the films, in the exact same way that including much NEEDED plot and character development in a few novella's rather then putting it in the film just shows that square wasnt even trying to make a solid story out of this film, rather they just focused on production values and shallow fan service alone.

Ahem, and incidently, rouge squadran is just about one of the coolest SW novels out there. use it to wash the bad taste of jar jar out of your mouth. :D

We now return you to your advent children discussion, any more star wars discussion, can we please keep it to pm? This was just pure fluke and I dont want to derail the topic.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Oh, and Aeris wasn't "sort of a thrice removed little sister to him." Aeris was an Ancient; Sephiroth is derived from JENOVA, a mysterious extraterrestrial entity which nearly wiped out the Cetra. Not only are they unrelated, they're diametrically opposed


Next, maybe its just the fact you are alot more familiar with the subject matter then myself, but But I was under the impression Jenova descended from the ancients, as was Aeries? I was lucky enough to play FFVII before the disgaea's and xenogears of gamingdom, thus explaining why I enjoyed it as much as I did. I doubt I could stay awake were I to give it another round in today's gaming world. I havnt even finished Atelier Isis or Makai Kingdom yet. If Im wrong, I fully concede this point to your superior familiarity with the source material.

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Jenova was never an ancient... She was in fact an alien or The "Calamity from the Sky" as the ancients called her or it... She falsely befriended the ancients however before the ancients knew what was going on, jenova secretely released a disease that turned the ancients into monsters... As for Aeris, she is in fact part ancient and part human (ancient from her mother Ilfana and human from her father professor Gast)...

You also make references to the emperor in FFVI in conjunction to Sephiroth but I reckon that you should in fact be making a reference to Hojo as Hojo was the entire cause of the "rebirth" of Jenova in Cloud's time...

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You also make references to the emperor in FFVI in conjunction to Sephiroth but I reckon that you should in fact be making a reference to Hojo as Hojo was the entire cause of the "rebirth" of Jenova in Cloud's time...

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Actually, thats just me comparing FF villains.

exactly... Hojo was a villian...

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exactly... Hojo was a villian...

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True, and while Hojo was probably the closest thing FFVII's cast of nay'er do-wells came to being truly likeable in that particular way a good villain is liked. But I still say Emperor Geshthal, while not having as large a rap sheet as hojo, kefka, sin, yunalesca, and other FF villains, is the one that perpetuated the most dispicable villainous act in the history of RPG's, as cool as kefka was, nothing he did shows the utter lack of moral character as slitting the throat of an already dying woman just to twist her baby into a living weapon. Back in FFVI I knew the truce he was offering was fake without needing a stratergy guide. Anyone who would do something so abominable is incapable of remorse or regret.

hojo injected jenova cells into Lucretia hence causing her to have a cursed life... Hojo actions affected Lucretia's, Sephiroth and finally Vincent's life directly as well as others...

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hojo injected jenova cells into Lucretia hence causing her to have a cursed life... Hojo actions affected Lucretia's, Sephiroth and finally Vincent's life directly as well as others...

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Yes, I know. I was there. I playd the game remember? Still doesnt match up to geshthal, kefka, yunalesca, seymore, Cain, and other Final Fantasy Villains.

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Originally Posted by Russielloyd

Yes but the reviewer given the proper facts will know this apart of an on going story and would take that into consideration when reviewing the plot. Also though the reviewer would proberly point out how complex the story is for neww comers but at the same time would most deffinately point out, thats its a must see for all FF lovers.

EDIT: Vaprice, dont spam! its annoying and this is a good discusion here.

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Thank you

I agree with Masamune 1600 on all points. Very intelligent and thought out argument!

And yes, this is just your opinions, and we should respect everyone's opinions, even if they're different than ours.

But there are some things I must point out. I actually think recapping FFVII in the first 10 minutes was a great move, since some of my friends and family had never played the game and it actually helped them understand what was going on instead being thrusted directly into the plot. It made it enjoyable for them to watch the movie without being completely confused.

Another thing that really bugs me though is your perception of Sephiroth. He is NOT the most evil, despicable villain in FF history, but he's still my favorite. BECAUSE he IMO has the most background story out of any villain and he appeals to me and many others that way. I think Square's intent for FFVII to have a realistic villain that you can in some ways feel sorry for... it's a tragedy that Sephiroth never realizes the truth of his past. You can understand why he's so angry with the world, and no other villain has been portrayed that way. All other FF villains that I can think of are just... evil with no real explanation of why they are that way.

(Oh, If I am wrong about anything that I said, let me know. I have never played VI you see....)

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(Oh, If I am wrong about anything that I said, let me know. I have never played VI you see....)

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Well, what you said about kefka and geshtahl being evil without any background as too why is correct. though, sephiroth is somewhat overrated. Terra from FFVI has a very similar history to Sephiroth, she is half human, and half esper. Human's and Espers never got along, there was a war that enarly destroyed the planet, and the empire, the last time they crossed over to the esper dimension killed and took many esper corpses. One of the casualties was Terra's human mother, who was killed by geshtahl so that he could raise and turn terra into a living weapon with no emotional ties or understanding of what it was to be human. See the similarity, the difference is that sephiroth knew kindness, respect, admiration and friendship. Terra knew none of these things, she was raised since childhood to kill. When she began to question why, she was fitted with a mind control device that subdued any free will she had.

I guess this is why I consider Seph so shallow and overrated. Terra should have been just as angry as he was, even more so when she saw the remains of her father, and was told what happened and how she came to be in her situation. She held onto her humanity in situations that were even more dire then sephs lifestory.

Cain from FFIV is also a fairly deep villain, he switches from hero to villain at certain points in the story. Initially he is the main characters closest friend. In fact, there are allusions that he helped to train cecil. Yet at one point Cain and Cecil are seperated, and when they reunite cain is now Cecil's enemy. The main villain didnt so much brainwash, cain, as brought out his darker side. Cain always loved Rosa, yet She loved cecil. A person Cain saw as weaker then himself. The jealousy and pride was Cain's downfall and almost killed him.

Also one must wonder if you played FFX. If you want background story on a villain, it doesnt get any deeper and more tragic then the final battle in that game.

I would also reccommend you hunt down Xenogears, One of my personnal favorite RPG's ever with a story that is by far deeper then VII's, deeper then even FFVI, and with a villain who is at the same time more dispicable then kefka, and more tragic then seph.

And as for recapping the story of FFVII in the first ten minutes, AC HAD a story, then yes it would have been neccessary. There are more then Seven major fight scenes in Advent Children. Thats less then your average Jet Li/Jackie chan kung fu flick. In fact, I cant think of any martial arts film that has that number of major fight scenes. Then there's major story bits... I swear I cant figure out what tifa see's in cloud. He's moody, antisocial, selfish, stupid, shallow, bi-polar, ect. I think we all know the two biggest qualities cloud see's in (or would that be "on") tifa, even more so considering they are bigger then ever in Advent Children :rolleyes2. Then there was clouds relapse into depression, after I paid good money to watch the mook work through it all in the first game. and the villains themselves were utterly shallow with no backstory whatsoever. And no the fact that their backstory was included in some novella doesnt count. If the film makers cant be bothered to put some story elements into a movie, then the story deserves to be bashed. Basically AC was one big sugar rush punctuated by a nonsensical, hole ridden plot and some good bits with rufus and the turks.

By the way, speaking of masamune1600, Im still waiting for your reply :D

You keep comparing it other things. Just because something is different to what you like, doesnt mean its bad. You just hardly know anything about AC and F77. AC is it own style, why does it have to copy everything else? This is Final Fantasy, you cant compare it too a cartoon anime or a 70s (or whenever it was) martial arts movie, their totally different movie in their own right.

Life-like, yes, you see anything else come close to AC?...dont think so.

Omg i feel so embaressed asking this :( but is AC already out and if it is I NEED TO SEE IT!!! :D It looks so effing amazing i would kill to see it! Plz let me no if its out yet and plz dont call me a retard for asking this question!
with all due respect,
Cody Virag

Its been out for 2 months already, keep up with the rest!

:confused: well i just have one question lol. Why didnt it come out in theaters and why did they not advertise it?:confused:

It went straight to DVD and its been advertised for the last 2 years.

Where have you been?

te he i neva seen it advertised once!!!:rolleyes2 W/e sorry fo the inconvinience:tongue:

It wasnt advertised on TV, there strailers all over the internet and its only out in Japan.

oh well when dose it come out in english (here canada/ usa?):confused:

Beggining of next year hopefully

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Originally Posted by Russielloyd

You just hardly know anything about AC and F77. .

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You just keep on going back to the same accusation, that just because I dont like It I cant possibly know anything about it. Look Don Quixote just because you live and breathe the FFVII universe, doesnt mean everyone else should be chasing windmills in FFVII land as well. Or maybe if you can come out of your daze for a second, you might realize that if you can't diagnose the third rate storytelling and hideous plot contrivance in FFVII and Advent Children, that your the one not knowing anything about reality?

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Originally Posted by Russielloyd

You keep comparing it other things. Just because something is different to what you like, doesnt mean its bad. AC is it own style, why does it have to copy everything else? This is Final Fantasy, you cant compare it too a cartoon anime or a 70s (or whenever it was) martial arts movie, their totally different movie in their own right.

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Honestly have you been paying attention, or do you just get a traind chimp to clap twice when you ask questions about the post? AC different from anime or hk action flicks? I know for a fact you dont watch ANY of them because if you think AC is different you really need to pay more attention and focus on the real world. It rips off both genre's blatantly and unapolageticly. Not neccessarily a bad thing, but problem is it rips off the style, the cool looking fight scenes and cinematography, but forgets too add the substance. The intelligent and well thought out storytelling that is contained within, and between, the cool fight scenes. So yes FFVII DOES have too copy from alot of other genre's, because thats how it began. Cloud is shinji ikari with a bigger sword. Sephiroth is Sesshomaru without the winning personality. Tifa is SO like Lita from sailor moon its not even funny, with aeries playing the role of saintly cute girl thats been around since time immemorial in anime. Yuffie's role is so trite and repeated so often I wont even bother mentioning a few of her forebearers. And Nomura is a John Woo/Yuen Wu Ping imitator, without the compelling and gritty, well told storylines.

And too repeat myself again, what AC messed up when it copied the style of Wuxia and Anime. Each movie, or series establishes its own rules and laws of physics, and sticks to them. Abilities are special, like leaping high distances, slashing so fast it seems like a blur, speed so quick it seems like teleportation and magic powers that attack with chi, but it all operates with consequences and noone is immortal or without their limits. THATS what builds drama, but in AC limits, stamina, technique, laws of physics, none of this applies in AC. Since when did Tifa or Yuffie get the ability to leap high distances? how the hell did barrett get so high up to toss cloud, how did redXIII throw him when he was in midair with nothing to use but his neck muscles? How does cloud fight seven major battles and not get tired? there is no logic or thought at all to the preceedings, none at all. just one hyperactive action scene, silly bit of story, then another ADD afflicted fight scene. If AC focused on building drama and tension with a fight scene, isntead of making it look cool as heck, the film would have been so much better. I mean you always knew cloud would survive, and make it unharmed and unscathed. It was boring. Seeing a hero get hurt, seeing him fight on using guille, cunning, and technique to make up for the lost ability, it builds alot of intensity. Thats what made the fight in Return of the Jedi between luke and Vader so bloody awesome. Vader already whupped luke six ways from sunday in the previous fight. Luke is already hurting because he knows he's fighting his father. It was an emotional fight as well as a physical one and luke was challenged on both level. Imagine how boring it would have been if you knew luke was going to whup vader without taking so much as a hit or without any wounds? BORING! Clouds fight with kadaj? Boring! Clouds fight with the seph clones? Boring! Clouds fight with sephiroth? Almost cool but ended so LAME! I wanted to see cloud outsmart seph cuz it was clear he couldnt outfight him. how did cloud pull out that sword without losing his fingers, then pull off a limit break with seph not even bothering to duck, only the god of plot contrivance (you know him as tetsuya nomura) knows

Also it wouldnt hurt for you to get a bit more acquainted with AC's inspiration. Check out a HK film site or a website that reviews anime to see whats good out there. get a bit more experience under your belt. I mean Yeesh, "Cartoon anime", do you enjoy making a fool out of yourself? 70's kung fu flick? guess you didnt hear bout Crouching tiger winning a bunch of oscars back in 99 did you? At least do a google search before you embaress yourself like that again.

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Life-like, yes, you see anything else come close to AC?...dont think so

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Lifelike? yeesh you really are a modern day Don Quixote if you consider Advent Children lifelike. A dog beast throwing a guy with several large swords into the air by the scruff of his neck, and you find that life like? Time to stop chasing windmills don.

Oh, and if you wanted lifelike, I would Reccommend spirits within. But I dont think you would like it. It has a plot. Storytelling. And only around three or four action scenes in it.

Oh yah, and if you want to see what wuxia looks like in video game format, Kessen II gave it a shot and did a pretty good job imitating the style in its cutscenes. Its just that the storytelling of the Romance of the III kingdoms was really inaccurate. Zhuge Liang having a ditz for a wife and being a crazy powerful sorceror? yeesh. :rolleyes2

Oh yah, and dont you think you were a bit harsh on the guy who didnt know AC was released in japan? Not everyone is aware of file sharing and fansubbing. You should really learn to be a bit more considerate and understanding of different points of view.

I didnt read all of that, i just skimmed throung what caught my eye.

I didnt mean life like as is to that is things your would normally see in the real world, i meant the graphics you muppet, there are mosts parts that make you believe the same way Spriits Within did and as you know now yes i have seen Spirits Within and its a good movies No i wasnt being inconsiderate, i was just messing about whilst pointing out the facts. Also if your going to get personal, its gonna get personal straight back, then it will get ugly, then we will both get banned, Even though some people would respect your review if you payed attention to the stories in the game and the movie and then you'd know why things can happen, it looks like the only reason you came on this site to bash the movie hen youve come to the wrong place even though ive seen you post two decent comment on other things.

A Tip.
If you want to survive on this site, make sure you know all the facts to a FF game on here before bashing it otherwise you'll make more people mad and when people turn on you, then your really screwed.

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I didnt read all of that, i just skimmed throung what caught my eye.

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We don't allow comments like this.

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i meant the graphics you muppet,

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Graphics often apply to a video game, I think if you had a vocabulary outside that hobby (though in your case it seems to border on obsession), you would have meant to say animation values. Which as I stated, are largely inferior to Spirits Within in every way.

The latter part of that was totally unnecessary and also is not permitted.

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Also if your going to get personal, its gonna get personal straight back

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Totally unacceptable.

By the way, masamune, did I scare you off? your reply was the closest thing to intelligent rebuttals Ive seen to my views on AC in a while. Doesnt exscuse the extremely poor storytelling in AC though. I would like to see how you respond, And Im getting a little bored with shrill fanboys like Don Quixote here (does he even understand the relevance behind that comparison?) who are so tuned out from reality they can only repeat the same thing time and again.

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If you want to survive on this site, make sure you know all the facts to a FF game on here before bashing it otherwise you'll make more people mad and when people turn on you, then your really screwed.

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So is this. Knock it off.

Edit: Almost all of this post was completely unacceptable. Do not post like this again or you will be banned.

~Void

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Tell you what, when you can reply with the same amount of thought and insight as masamune1600, then that might mean something.

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And yet you still ignore everything he has to say, and continue to ramble on about the same crap. He probably stopped replying because he realised that you’re only interested in starting a flame war, thus anything he says will fall upon deaf ears.

And just for the record, Shinji Ikari/Cloud and Lita/Tifa are very possibly the two worst comparisons I have ever seen. These characters are NOTHING alike. At all.

So in conclusion: You’ve had your little rant, now let this thread die. You must have better things to do…

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Originally Posted by ThroneofDravaris

And yet you still ignore everything he has to say, and continue to ramble on about the same crap. He probably stopped replying because he realised that you’re only interested in starting a flame war, thus anything he says will fall upon deaf ears.

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Actually, the one ignoring what I have to say is you and russell and other people like yourselves. Masamune1600 is one of the few thus far to actually reply with some thought, and he got a respectful, thurough, reply. when you reply with this baseless fanboyish crap that is beyond redundant and dont even bother elaborate, (like say "you dont know nothing" or "you aint bad, you aint nothing" [note, that last quote was satire]) thinking it just is true and the world should shut up and stop disagreeing with you. If you disagree, state why. If you cant rebutt or reply with some intelligence, then its best if you dont even try.

Oh, and might you want to try to explain how cloud and shinji are nothing alike? both spend their time whining about their past, sitting mutely while the world goes to hell around them. they sound pretty much alike to myself. And as for tifa/lita, lets see.... both are PURPOSELY designed to have short skirts and big racks (though in lita's case, it was a gag), both are expert martial artists, both half lingering crushes on childhood friends who treat them like dirt, both work in the serving industry, hmmmm. yah your right. nothing alike. :rolleyes2

Oh yah, and russell, my apologies seeing as how Ive been a bit TOO rough on you. but a word of advice, if you dont want to see it continue, actually read through my posts as you will find alot of things you keep stating, Ive already replined. I do you and masamune the respectful service of reading thoroughly before replying to your threads, if you cant do the same (reading something before you comment on it) then dont bother replying because that in itself is disrespectful and will only eventually incite a flame war.

Well Ishin, I think I should go and play VI, it sounds like an awesome game and Terra's story is very interesting. :D She sounds like a character I'd like.

And in answer to your question, of course I've played X, it's my fav FF game after all!! And which villain is it your really talking about Seymour, Yunalesca, Yu Yevon, or Jecht? I'm just curious... and agreed that's awesome background stories in X, one of the reasons why I love it so much! ;)

Sephiroth can be a little overrated but somehow he still appeals to me as my fav villain. Who knows...

Heh, don't get me started on Cloud, he's definately overrated... but I won't get into him right now. LOL....

Let's try not to be too condescending. Remember, we're all arguing about a movie made after a video game. Intelligently debating such a topic is only marginally better than ignorantly debating the topic, in the grand scheme of things.

Perhaps you didn't read my post directly above. Never post like this again or you will be banned. -eestlinc

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Actually, the one ignoring what I have to say is you and russell and other people like yourselves. Masamune1600 is one of the few thus far to actually reply with some thought, and he got a respectful, thurough, reply. when you reply with this baseless fanboyish crap that is beyond redundant and dont even bother elaborate, (like say "you dont know nothing" or "you aint bad, you aint nothing" [note, that last quote was satire]) thinking it just is true and the world should shut up and stop disagreeing with you. If you disagree, state why. If you cant rebutt or reply with some intelligence, then its best if you dont even try.

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Considering the nature of your original post, my comments were perfectly appropriate. Do you seriously expect anything other than sarcastic backlash when you post something like this? Although, since you so politely (…) asked me to elaborate, I will.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Oh, and might you want to try to explain how cloud and shinji are nothing alike? both spend their time whining about their past, sitting mutely while the world goes to hell around them. they sound pretty much alike to myself.

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This is completely untrue of Cloud, and only partially true of Shinji. Cloud never, at any point in either FF7 or Advent Children, sits idly by while everything falls apart. Nor does he ever ‘whine’ per se. Whining implies that he complains about his circumstances, which never occurs. If Cloud is flawed in any way, it is that he takes too much of the world problems upon himself to begin with. Admittedly, this is a contrast to his ‘as long as I get paid’ attitude at the beginning of FF7, but that’s one o those magical things we call ‘character development’ I guess. Cloud blames himself for the death of Aeris in AC, thus isolates himself from others. He considers that his burdens are his alone, and refuses the help from others. This trait is rather common among protagonists in action movies, especially ones of Asian origin. How he could ever be interpreted as ‘whiny’ is beyond me. I can’t think of a single instance in which he complains about his current conditions.

Shinji Ikari, on the other hand, DOES whine. A Lot. However, it should be noted that despite being reluctant (and at some points, all together opposed) to fulfil his role, he does (in one way or another) end up getting the job down. Unlike Cloud (who, after all, had ambitions to join SOLDIER), Shinji has no desire to fight. Where Cloud fights because he wants to protect people, Shinji fights because he feels he has no other choice. Cloud distances himself from others because he feels that he must suffer on his own accord, and seek redemption on his own. Shinji distances himself from others because he is afraid of being hurt, and afraid of hurting others (Re: Hedgehogs Dilemma). He is unable to feel for other people because he hates himself, and this hatred subsequently leads to him closing off the world in the final episodes. Shinji is a classic anti-hero, a trait that Cloud shows only briefly in the beginning of FF7. Really, there are almost no similarities that can be drawn between these characters. There motivations, appearance and personality are all very different.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

And as for tifa/lita, lets see.... both are PURPOSELY designed to have short skirts and big racks (though in lita's case, it was a gag), both are expert martial artists, both half lingering crushes on childhood friends who treat them like dirt, both work in the serving industry, hmmmm. yah your right. nothing alike. :rolleyes2

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And yet everything you said is a superficial quality. You may as well compare her to Hyatt, who also wears short skirts, has larger than average breasts and works as a waitress on a multitude of occasions. Lita isn’t the only one of the Sailor Senshi that wears a short skirt either, thus it does not count as a character trait. Lita’s skills in the martial arts are subsidiary to her primary means of attack, which is her ability to manipulate/produce lightning. In fact, her martial abilities were probably only added to the script because the complimented her boisterous nature, which is where she differs from Tifa the most.

Lita is an outspoken, extroverted tomboy. Tifa is not either of these things; these are characteristics that define Aeris more than anyone else. For a ‘fighter type’ female lead, she actually militates from the usually stereotypes significantly and is a rather submissive. She is not at all hostile, and even when she is lecturing Cloud, it isn’t exactly a ‘good tongue lashing’. Lita is also a slave to her sexual desires (aka ‘boy crazy’) while Tifa only really ever shows interest in Cloud. There is a particularly hilarious moment in FF7 that plays upon Tifa’s inability to recognise advances from men. You can actually get Cloud to crack on to Tifa very early in the game, to which she replies, “I don’t know what you mean…”. This emphasises Tifa’s ‘innocent’ qualities, something which conflicts rather strongly with her physical characteristics, but is present non-the-less. There really isn’t anything substantial that links these two characters together; other then they both have particularly large breasts…

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Oh yah, and russell, my apologies seeing as how Ive been a bit TOO rough on you. but a word of advice, if you dont want to see it continue, actually read through my posts as you will find alot of things you keep stating, Ive already replined. I do you and masamune the respectful service of reading thoroughly before replying to your threads, if you cant do the same (reading something before you comment on it) then dont bother replying because that in itself is disrespectful and will only eventually incite a flame war.

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And yet, who’s the one that’s getting his post edited?

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Shinji Ikari, on the other hand, DOES whine. A Lot. However, it should be noted that despite being reluctant (and at some points, all together opposed) to fulfil his role, he does (in one way or another) end up getting the job down. Unlike Cloud (who, after all, had ambitions to join SOLDIER), Shinji has no desire to fight. Where Cloud fights because he wants to protect people, Shinji fights because he feels he has no other choice. Cloud distances himself from others because he feels that he must suffer on his own accord, and seek redemption on his own. Shinji distances himself from others because he is afraid of being hurt, and afraid of hurting others (Re: Hedgehogs Dilemma). He is unable to feel for other people because he hates himself, and this hatred subsequently leads to him closing off the world in the final episodes. Shinji is a classic anti-hero, a trait that Cloud shows only briefly in the beginning of FF7. Really, there are almost no similarities that can be drawn between these characters. There motivations, appearance and personality are all very different.

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I think you havnt watched many episodes of Evangelion, because shinji for a time embraced his role as an eva pilot, partially due to rei and the fact that she was a genetic clone of his mom, fused with the DNA of an angel. Though we didnt know it at the time, you can clearly see him wholehearted begin to embrace fighting at the helm of eva 01 to ensure that rei will not suffer and die. Later he even began to enjoy the role, becoming cocky even for a brief period.

So, his character arc for more then half the series was from whiner, to cocky hero. Kinda sound like someone we know? YAH CLOUD! during the beginning of FFVII he's all guts and guille, putting on an act as a cool merc, later he gets broken down and when we see his real personality, he's just pathetic. He grew up a weakling, no father, a doting mother, and having tifa protect his punk ass (just as lita is seen doing in various eps). He whined about it so much and wanted to be strong so that he would be accepted (like shinji did later on in evangelion). Yet while shinji had a mecha for backup, how the heck cloud ended up tough enough to pull a blade out of his gut, lift seph by the end of that blade and hurl him into a pit without having his fingers sliced off is beyond me. Once again the great god of plot contrivance (tetsuya nomura be thy name) smiles on him.

And perhaps you havnt seen Advent children yet, but cloud is back in full whiner mode yet again. So he's got a friggin rash on his arm, he decides to become a hermit. Boo, friggin hoo. Then he's whining to everyone how he cant protect anyone, he wants forgiveness, (like shinji) he sits there while midgars children get kidnapped and tifa and the turks all have to sit there coaching him until he gets off his butt. Also akin to shinji. Only difference is that shinji's development (or self destruction if you will) as a character is logical, well planned and thought out, clouds is contrived as hell. One line from vincent and he's walking on sunshine. What the hell? and Marlene goes from hating his guts to thinking he's the tops in two seconds. Arrgghhh, can we have some friggin logic to these proceedings?

Clouds growth at the end of the original FFVII, as shallow and contrived as it was, gave the game a decent amount of closure. Yet in AC he's back into full shinji ikari mode. Personally, I think cloud is more likeable when he whines, because thats the only time he has anything resembling depth. when's hes into full action hero mode he's bland as toast. boring. In the game he found out he's been borderline MPD for the past few years, and before that he was a weakling, yet afterwards he's back in full action hero mode. How does that make ANY sense? It doesnt. If he left for a while, trained so that any strength or training he has is truly his and not some projected delusion brought on by his disassociative personality, that would have made more sense. It would have been logical, and better thought out. The revelation of his past and true character had no consequences whatsoever. So yah, most of the time he's shinji ikari with a big sword, and others he's just a blank slate modelling action hero stereotypes.

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And yet everything you said is a superficial quality. You may as well compare her to Hyatt, who also wears short skirts, has larger than average breasts and works as a waitress on a multitude of occasions. Lita isn’t the only one of the Sailor Senshi that wears a short skirt either, thus it does not count as a character trait. Lita’s skills in the martial arts are subsidiary to her primary means of attack, which is her ability to manipulate/produce lightning. In fact, her martial abilities were probably only added to the script because the complimented her boisterous nature, which is where she differs from Tifa the most.

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lita's martial abilities, and giftend endownment are major parts of who she is. several times her physical abilities come into play as her character is delved into. not to mention that when the show is unedited, her rack gets several jokes. Complete with her thinking she should get the starring role in a school play because of her cup size. Of all the Sailor Senshi, she is the one who's physical assets get the most mention. Again, like tifa. As for your mention of hyatt, she was also fanatically loyal to Ilparatzza, going so far as to attempt to murder a friend. Hyatt wasnt so much submissive, as she was loyal.

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Lita is an outspoken, extroverted tomboy. Tifa is not either of these things; these are characteristics that define Aeris more than anyone else. For a ‘fighter type’ female lead, she actually militates from the usually stereotypes significantly and is a rather submissive. She is not at all hostile, and even when she is lecturing Cloud, it isn’t exactly a ‘good tongue lashing’. Lita is also a slave to her sexual desires (aka ‘boy crazy’) while Tifa only really ever shows interest in Cloud. There is a particularly hilarious moment in FF7 that plays upon Tifa’s inability to recognise advances from men. You can actually get Cloud to crack on to Tifa very early in the game, to which she replies, “I don’t know what you mean…”. This emphasises Tifa’s ‘innocent’ qualities, something which conflicts rather strongly with her physical characteristics, but is present non-the-less. There really isn’t anything substantial that links these two characters together; other then they both have particularly large breasts…

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Yet for all lita's boy chasing (not nearly as incessant as minako's) , she is one of the few who at the end of the series doesnt have a boyfriend. For all her sexual fueled personna, she is still one of the more heartfelt and original characters. And you exaggerate Tifa's "inncent(?) qualities". Was she not the one using her physical assets to gain a meeting with don coniro? Yah, playing the role of a prostitute is REAL innocent huh? Was she not shown as being tougher then many of the boys back in nibelhelm? Bossy even? The qualities that make her unlike lita (what few there are) Is what makes her as unlikeable as cloud. In the end she is just as weak a character as he is. In Advent Children she does little but moon over him (in much the same way lita moons over her ex) and whine. ditto for in the game as well, though she did have a few moments where her tomboy side shined through (which made her comparible to lita again. If you take a look at design, main characteristics, and drawing points... she is identical to lita in every way... save lita has some actual thought and heart whereas tifa's arc is very trite and boring.

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And yet, who’s the one that’s getting his post edited?

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Oh my god, I edit my posts, im so ashamed. :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Oh god, I edit my posts, im so ashamed. :rolleyes2

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Actually, I believe he was referring to a mod editting one of your posts. Which really doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.

As ToD noted earlier, I have no desire to continue with this thread. Obviously, regardless of what anyone in this thread says to you, you're not going to change your opinion regarding AC. I can't fault anyone for that, as liking or disliking the movie is a function of opinion, and nothing else. My problems, however, arise from the fact that almost all of your criticisms are either spurious, or are the result of a profound misunderstanding of FFVII concepts. As such, I will reply to this thread one final time, in an effort to elucidate relevant aspects of the plots of AC and the original game.

I'm not going to bother quoting your extended overviews on various kung fu flicks you've seen and enjoyed over the years. I will state, however, that your criticisms neglect the realities of the movie. Note, for example, your initial reference to two heroes together overcoming a more powerful villain. The same convention exists in AC; however, it is reversed. Rather than the protagonist overcoming a villain by playing off of the abilities of an ally, enemies work together. Note that in the fight at the Forgotten City, Loz and Yazoo compliment each other very well, frequently playing off of the battle characteristics and abilities of the other. One notable example would be Yazoo taking Loz's gunblade, allowing him to fire both at once while freeing Loz to use his martial arts and speed flashes. Another example would be when Loz generates the localized earthquake; Yazoo leaps backwards over it while still firing at Cloud. Cloud is thus forced to continue to block the bullets, before countering the earth attack with Blade Beam.

However, this doesn't matter much to me. While your other examples can be similarly deconstructed, I personally see no merit in adherence to tired, hackneyed battle conventions. That you enjoy these stereotypes is your prerogative, of course, but such criticisms (if they even applied) are a function of personal interpretation, and not the quality of the movie.

From here, I'll simmply touch on a few of the more glaring misunderstandings regarding the plot, both as regards the original game, and as regards Advent Children.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Oh, and he didnt defeat loz and the other seph clone (who's name I can never remember, which is why I call them/him the seph clones/twins as inaccurate as I know it to be) Rude and Reno did by planting the explosives.

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You obviously don't understand the idea of context. Cloud needed to catch up with Kadaj; Loz and Yazoo needed to prevent Cloud from doing so. In the context of the bike battle, Loz and Yazoo were defeated; they were neutralized, their weapons and a bike destroyed, and were unable to stop or even noticeably delay Cloud.

Moreover, while the explosives used by Reno and Rude certainly incapacitated Loz and Yazoo, perhaps even mortally wounding them, the fact remains that the two SHM appeared again at the end, after Cloud had defeated Sephiroth. Only at this point did they finally die.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Invariably fatal, possibly. But unless you read the novella's (which I havnt) you'd never guess that. As I stated before, it would have been so much more effective if we actually saw SOME severe suffering. Cough up some blood, loose an arm, writhe in agony and infinite torment dammit. show me this is something more freakier then the male version of PMS.

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Given that Cloud exhibits little or no pain after having a sword run through his shoulder, or being shot in the back, yet exhibits clear pain whenever Geostigma asserts itself, is obviusly indicative that the malady was somewhat serious. Further, the movie implicitly attests to the deadliness of Geostigma; Marlene asks that Denzel "not be taken away," while Cloud's ruminations on life at Zack's grave also suggest the danger presented by the condition.

Also note that the Negative Lifestream, an important concept for the movie, is composed from the corrupted Spirit Energy of those who died from Geostigma.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

You cannot deny it would have been ALOT more effective in creating drama if this had been done ON SCREEN. Nix the zombie ninja kamikaze commando 8 year olds bit, and you have plenty of time to accomplish this. By the way, why doesnt anyone take me up on a verbal debate regarding THAT little subplot? Any Takers?

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Apparently, you still haven't read my initial post, where I fully explained the matter of the children. For your convenience, I'll include the relevant excerpts here.

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Originally Posted by Masamune∙1600

First off, Kadaj's master plan had nothing to do with any sort of suicide cult whatever the hell you were trying to say. Kidnapping the children brought together several key points. In addition to reestablishing the underlying themes of the movie, it allowed the SHM to lure Cloud to the Forgotten City. Moreover, as the children were afflicted with Geostigma, they were, really, kin to the SHM. Since Geostigma involves JENOVA, this also ties into the concept of again bringing about the Reunion. Still further, the children, ostensibly, could have been used to help locate the "head of JENOVA" once they had been infused by Kadaj's will.

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also...

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Originally Posted by Masamune∙1600

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Kadaj kidnaps and brainwashes midgars children, then just has them stand around waiting for bahamut to kill them. What was the point of kidnapping them then?

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Um, in addition to the numerous reasons presented above, they also effectively kept the populace from interrupting Loz and Yazoo as they attempted to tear down the memorial (where they thought the head of JENOVA was being kept).

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Already stated to the guy with aeries pic in his sig that I havnt read them wasnt even aware of them until I did a google search earlier. I will get around to it, but my point stands. The fact that square DIDNT think these details needed to be included in the film, only proves where their priorities were in making AC. The story of the film would have been alot stronger. Im a huge fan of star wars, have read all the novels and most of the comics, yet when I watch the films I grade them on how good the films are, not how good they are as companions to the novels or comics. Same princible applies here, I cant comment on how good the novella's are until I read them, but the fact that AC is is incomplete without having read them just reinforces how poorly written a film it is. Im a mega fan of star wars, can tell you all about the fetts, mandalorian armor, the force and the jedi, yet I still hold episodes 1 and 2 in low regard despite how much more entertaining they are if I apply the background info from the books Ive read. AC is marketed as the sequal to FFVII, and a standalone film, and thats how I judge it and look at it. My appreciation for the story may go up after reading the novels, but my appreciation for the cinematic endeavor will remain the same.

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You fail to fully understand the nature of Advent Children; in addition to being a movie sequel to FFVII, it is also a part of the Compilation of FFVII (composed of Advent Children, Before Crisis, Dirge of Cerberus, and Crisis Core). While On the Way to a Smile is not explicitly a part of the Compilation, it does fall under SE's stated strategy of exploring "polymorphic content." This generally refers to the variety of different ways SE plans to explore FFVII within the Compilation (DVD/UMD, cell phone, PS2, PSP), and a book element would certainly be in line with such thinking.

Moreover, it seems to be presumptuous to assume anything regarding SE's plans on Advent Children, as the movie has not yet seen official release outside of Japan. Realize, though, that On the Way to a Smile has been a staple of the official Japanese AC site for quite some time, that the novella was written by Kazushige Nojima (who was responsible for the story of AC), and that the limitations of film (primarily regarding time and money) limit what can be included. If anything, it would seem that SE intended for its Japanese audience to read the novella.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

I assume the three were developed in a seperate novella? Already discussed the weakness in doing that.

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No. The first appearance of the SHM was in Advent Children itself.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

OMFG, they refferrenced christianity, thats SOOO cool.

Im a christian, and while I dont know my bible backwards and forewards, I know it well enough to refute any ignorant critiques against my beliefs (and to those who dont know when to keep a inappropriate discussion out of a thread, if you have any questions or critiques about my beliefs, send em via pm. Had a few sad experiences on past message boards).

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I'm also a Christian (Roman Catholic, specifically), and I understand my faith reasonably well. I'll be glad to expound on the religious themes present in Advent Children.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

As for the seph trio being influenced by the holy trinity, the significance of it is that the Father (god, the creator) the son (jesus, god in the flesh and the son of god) and the holy spirit (the spiritual pressence and guide of the son that is bestowed upon all believers at the time of baptism) are different, yet the same. They are all one at the same time they are seperate entities. It would take months to only partially explain so dont bother asking. But I fail to see how the seph trio are in any way reminiscent of this. Kadaj would if anything be the closest to sephs son, but what would that make the other two in this comparison? Where are you getting this biblical comparison from?

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An appreciation for the religious symbolism of the SHM requires an understanding of a complex chain of further religious symbolism, both that present in AC, and that involved with the original game. To begin, one must first understand that the SHM are aspects of Sephiroth; the SHM are Sephiroth, derived from his will and unknowingly subject to has machinations. Further, one must understand that the wills of JENOVA and Sephiroth are essentially indistinguishable; even physically, they are not entirely separate. Next, realize that JENOVA (an entity whose name is a corruption of the Latin for "new God") literally attempts to serve that role, usurping the "God" of Gaia, the Lifestream (which embodies all life). Finally, recall that Sephiroth is essentially one with JENOVA, and also that he himself seeks to become a deity by means of an apotheosis induced by the gathering of the Lifestream. With these facts in place, Sephiroth can be understood metaphorically as an "evil god."

With the background in place, the parallels between the concept of the SHM and the Holy Trinity are striking. The following quoted points are taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, unless otherwise noted (there is one use of game script for reasons of comparison).

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Originally Posted by (stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church)

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

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There are, symbolically two "baptisms" in Advent Children; the first is relevant to the SHM. At the Forgotten City, the children receive a "dark baptism" of sorts (keep in mind that the SHM are an "evil trinity"); there, they are "submerged" in the Black Water when they drink it. As a result, they are infused by the will of Kadaj; they are given the "power" to live under the promptings (read: direct manipulation) of Kadaj (and therefore, ultimately, Sephiroth), allowing them to act as completely empty vessels, devoid of self-awareness.

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234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith". The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men "and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin".

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The mystery of the SHM is the central mystery of Advent Children; they are Remnants of Sephiroth. In uniting with the cells of JENOVA, Sephiroth is again revealed (the metaphor here is of course not exact, but the actual Holy Trinity is itself a mystery that cannot be fully understood).

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261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

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Sephiroth is "revealed" in the aspects of Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo.

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1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

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In the mythology of FFVII, the idea closest to "Heaven" is the Lifestream (in Aeris and Zack, we see the promise of life after death). However (recalling that, for the purpose of the metaphor, Sephiroth is an "evil god"), life within the trinity of the SHM (which is to say, Sephiroth) is, ironically "hellish" (the Negative Lifestream). Given that the Lifestream can be equated with the Cetra idea of the Promise Land (more religious symbolism, but not to be explored here), which is described in the original FFVII as "supreme happiness..."

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Originally Posted by FFVII script

Aeris: ...I don't know. All I know is... The Cetra were born from the Planet,
speak with the Planet, and unlock the Planet. And......then... The Cetra will
return to the Promised Land. A land that promises supreme happiness.

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...the Negative Lifestream (controlled by Seph), the corrupted opposite of the Lifestream, can be understood to be theexact opposite of "supreme, definitive happiness."

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Originally Posted by (again, from the Catechism)

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."

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The SHM are one--they are Sephiroth. Sephiroth is one, symbolically divided into three individuals which share "Sephiroth" among themselves. Each of them is a Remnant of Sephiroth--any of the three could have merged with the JENOVA cells to again manifest Sephiroth on Gaia. Each one of the SHM really embodies the reality of Sephiroth.

Realizing that the metaphor cannot be completely exact, and that the SHM comprise an evil trinity (whereas God is perfect, and wholly good), the symbolism is remarkably deep and detailed. Moreover, because of the nature of the Holy Trinity, it becomes easier to understand the SHM as they exist in the movie.

As to your points regarding villains, you seem to equate quality villains with sheer, mindless evil. Sephiroth has demostrably more depth than Kefka or Gestahl, as can be seen by simply referring to the above religious allusions (and that takes no account of his backstory, plot relevance, and coninued religious symbolism). Sephiroth, in spite of what mnay think, is comparable to the characters of Xenogears. Also of note is that Kefka and Gestahl are hardly emblematic of the "greatest evil" in the FF series. I would recommend playing Final Fantasy Tactics; there is no one in the series, I believe, who can match the evil of Dycedarg, and Barinten's treatment of Rafa goes far beyond what Gestahl did with Madonna and Terra.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Next, maybe its just the fact you are alot more familiar with the subject matter then myself, but But I was under the impression Jenova descended from the ancients, as was Aeries?

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I don't mean to be critical, but this is why your diatribes have received such heated responses. You bash FFVII concepts without having any idea what was actually going on.

The Cetra/Ancients were essentially a race of people closely attuned to the Planet. They predated normal human beings; certain Cetra that broke off from their relatively harsh lifestyle were actually the precursors to humanity.

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Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Who is it!? Hmph... traitor.

Cloud: Traitor?

Sephiroth: You ignorant traitor. I'll tell you. This was a itinerant race. They
would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on... At the end of their harsh,
hard journey, they would find the Promised Land and supreme happiness. But,
those who stopped their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an easier
life. They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without giving back
one whit in return! Those are your ancestors.

Cloud: Sephiroth...

Sephiroth: Long ago, disaster struck this planet. Your ancestors escaped... They
survived because they hid. The Planet was saved by sacrificing the Cetra. After
that, your ancestors continued to increase. Now all that's left of the Cetra is
in these reports.

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JENOVA is, basically, an extraterrestrial entity with goals and properties similar to that of a virus. When JENOVA landed on Gaia, it approached the Cetra, infecting them with a virus and turning them into monsters.

From the Icicle Inn films...

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Ifalna: I'm all right... When the Cetra... were preparing to part with the
land they loved...That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead
mothers...and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past.

Gast: Who is the person that appeared at the North Cave? I haven't any idea.

Ifalna: That's when the one who injured the Planet...or the 'crisis from the
sky', as we call him, came. He first approached as a friend, deceived them,
and finally......gave them the virus. The Cetra were attacked by the virus
and went mad...transforming into monsters. Then, just as he had at the
Knowlespole. He approached other Cetra clans......infecting them with...the
virus...

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Ifalna and Gast, the two individuals speaking in the quote above, were the parents of Aeris. Ifalna was an Ancient/Cetra. Sephiroth was the child of Hojo and Lucrecia, and was injected with JENOVA cells while still in the womb. He was not an Ancient; neither, obviously, was JENOVA.

This, again, is why responses have been so vociferous. This is roughly equivalent to complaining about The Empire Strikes Back because "Luke started listening to that little green alien, rather than finding Yoda." As exaggerated as that seems, confusing the Cetra and JENOVA is arguably a more profound (though easier to make) error.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Second, my point is that Seph was a humane person once. He valued life and genuinely cared. Its not so much that I didnt remember who cloud really was during that flashback, as seph seemed to consider EVERYONE a comrade. That and cloud was the only one next to seph when they fought that dragon, yet seph used a pheonix down to revive him and showed concern. Thus showing that cloud may have indeed been on more familiar terms rather then him being all diassociative during the entire flashback.

So having one of the SHM (what does that mean anyway?) having a lingering element of seph's former humanity would have been refreshing, and having that played upon would have triggered some much needed development of the character. I would have preferred it if seph had flown off into the sunset to deal with his now devided psyche rather then forget to duck and vow not to remain a memory. the former would be actual development of the character. The latter was just lame and contrived. I admit, I lack the level of familiarity with this particular mytholgy that you have, but that does not escuse in the slightest poor and contrived story telling on AC's part.

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You don't seem to understand. Your version of events is impossible, as it contradicts who and what Sephiroth is. Sephiroth was never so much humane as he was formal and correct in a military manner (befitting someone of his position); moreover, Sephiroth didn't consider everyone a comrade. It would be much more accurate to say he considered no one a comrade. Rather, he treated everyone as would be considered proper given his station in SOLDIER.

Also, Sephiroth never had any connection to Cloud prior to their confrontation in the reactor on Mt. Nibel. The "Cloud" of the Kalm flashback was actually Zack; Cloud was a regular soldier, and Sephiroth would not have even known his name. The battles during the flashback, therefore, really involved Sephiroth and Zack,not Sephiroth and Cloud.

Moreover, Sephiroth does not revive Zack with a Phoenix Down out of care. Sephiroth will never use a Phoenix Down, as it's not part of the game script. In fact, Sephiroth will do nothing in battle to heal Zack, even though he himself is invincible. In the fight against the Dragon, Sephiroth will slash it with the Masamune until it dies; in any subsequent fights, Sephiroth will destroy the enemies with powerful offensive magic. If Zack is is injured, you can resort to the Magic menu and use Sephiroth's Cure and Life magic; however, this is obviously your action, not his.

The "forgot to duck" comment is off base; refer to my initial post on the first page.

In spite of your claims to find Sephiroth a mediocre villain, you adhere to many of the same ideas as his more shrill fanbase; they feel a need to romanticize him, to justify his actions and make him a "good character." The problem with this is it contradicts Sephiroth's fundamental identity. Prior to birth, Sephiroth was injected with JENOVA cells. These merged with him on a fundamental biological level; in essence, Sephiroth became an "evolution" of JENOVA. In other words,while pursuing his own goals, he also pursued the goals of JENOVA. As JENOVA is inherently opposed to the Lifestream, Sephiroth is an enemy of anyone on Gaia. While this quality might have been considered dormant prior to the Nibelheim disaster, the fact remains that Sephiroth is defined by his "being" JENOVA, and therefore cannot be good. His aims can change, becoming more sophisticated (and even, on a certain level, kind of well-intentioned; refer to his plan at the end of AC), but they remain fundamentally wrong, and more importantly, coincide with the immutable aims of JENOVA (who would have moved on to (an)other planet(s)).

Your ideas, then, regardless of what you may think, don't work. What you describe as "development" is an impossibility. The closest possible thing to redemption for Sephiroth was redemption for Kadaj, which did occur, and was the most that could be done given Sephiroth's true identity.

SHM is an abbreviation for "silver-haired men;" basically, it's an easy way to refer to Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

also, skip the specifics and just try explaining how having the kids drink up and become all cult like (espescially when denzelle or whatever his name is is seeing his friend held hostage) makes a lick of sense.

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I did so on the first page. You probably should have read that.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Well, what you said about kefka and geshtahl being evil without any background as too why is correct. though, sephiroth is somewhat overrated. Terra from FFVI has a very similar history to Sephiroth, she is half human, and half esper. Human's and Espers never got along, there was a war that enarly destroyed the planet, and the empire, the last time they crossed over to the esper dimension killed and took many esper corpses. One of the casualties was Terra's human mother, who was killed by geshtahl so that he could raise and turn terra into a living weapon with no emotional ties or understanding of what it was to be human. See the similarity, the difference is that sephiroth knew kindness, respect, admiration and friendship. Terra knew none of these things, she was raised since childhood to kill. When she began to question why, she was fitted with a mind control device that subdued any free will she had.

I guess this is why I consider Seph so shallow and overrated. Terra should have been just as angry as he was, even more so when she saw the remains of her father, and was told what happened and how she came to be in her situation. She held onto her humanity in situations that were even more dire then sephs lifestory.

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Again, your opinions are based solely on misconceptions. Sephiroth and Terra are not at all alike.

Terra was the daughter of Maduin, an Esper, and Madonna, a human. You had that much right. However, there was no overriding factor that determined that Terra should be evil. Maduin and Madonna, as is obvious in the recollection of the Esper World, were decent beings.

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Maduin: Did I awaken you?
Girl: You're... an Esper? What's that pendant for?
Maduin: It's... yours now! It helps protect the Esper World.
Girl: Esper World... Boy, did I take the low road or what?
Maduin: The Esper folk are pretty upset, you being a human and all...
Girl: You're the one who saved me?
Maduin: I am Maduin. I tired of living in the human world... That world is filled with desire, greed and loathing. It's highly infectious...
Maduin: Are humans and Espers truly... so different?
Madonna: So... I'm an example of the evil in this world, huh?
Maduin: No, I mean...
Madonna: I'll return to my world tomorrow!
Maduin: You'll need a guide.

Youth: What's wrong, Maduin?

Maduin: If you don't want to return to your world, you may stay here.
Madonna: But humans and Espers can never co-exist...!
Maduin: How do we know for sure unless we try for ourselves?
How do we know...
unless we...
observe for ourselves...?

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Apparently, in the case of Terra, we see something of an argument for nature over nurture, as she retains basic decency in spite of her upbringing. There is no explanation given; really, Terra's time under the supervision of the Empire is unexplored. We only know that she is taken by the Empire slightly two years after being born. While Terra is one of my favorite characters in the series, her backstory is not nearly so deep as you would imply. Rather, it's the events of the game, her search for an understanding of love, that makes Terra so endearing.

Also of note is that Terra's truly formative experiences come during her time with the party, all of whom do their best to help her, guide her, and befriend her. In fact, Terra's time with the Empire is almost irrelevant, as it is revealed that she suffers from amnesia after her encounter with Tritoch and the removal of the Slave Crown, and as memory returned, it was tempered by the reality of the goodness of the party.

Sephiroth, as I've explained previously, is effectively an evolution of JENOVA. Any "kindness" that Sephiroth knew was irrelevant; his aims are of necessity evil. Moreover, Sephiroth was never really treated with "kindness," so far as we know. He was a military experiment. Certainly he gained prestige and admiration for his power and valor in battle, but he was never anything other than a tool of Shinra. He never knew his parents, had no hometown, and grew up feeling different from everyone else. That might have been overcome, as it was in the case of Terra, but Sephiroth is inherently unimpressionable. He is, ultimately, defined by that fateful introduction of JENOVA while in the womb. In effect, Sephiroth became the living, sentient embodiment of JENOVA, and thus is as tragic a character as has ever been in the series.

Also, just because one character chooses good and another chooses evil does not make one shallow. These are choices; if reasons are provided for the choice (and Seph had reason enough), the nature of the choice itself is irrelevant.

Really, these plot clarifications are more for the edification of anyone that might read them, since you've consistently ignored my explanations thus far. I simply hope you understand that while Advent Children, like any movie, can easily be brought under the lens of legitimate criticism, your complaints stem from misconceptions you have made no effort to rectify.

I don't intend to make any further clarifications in this thread; I'm tired of taking this overly formal, wordy tone.

Well masamune, I agree that its time to end this discussion. You really do come accross as closed minded, you critique my lack of ability to recite the FFVII script on cue but feel as though you do not need to understand any of the sources that served as inspiration for Advent children. Your Hackneyed fighting convention crack was very out of line, as you seem to be under the impression that all there is to martial arts is kicking people in the head, and dont seem to comprehend the physical, mental, and emotional conditioning that is required to obtain any degree of skill, and the neccessary understanding of these factors in constructing a proper fight sequence involving the practices of sword or physical combat. You seem to feel that your arguments should be respected and adhered to as law, while other points that are just as, if not more, well constructed are ignored or dismissed simply because you are not familiar with the material.

Ive also noticed that you just seem to be reaching for material in order to justify your arguments. You seem like a reasonably intelligent indvidual, yet you undermine this impression by stating that the geostigma is likely more painful then sword or gunshot wounds, thus simultaneously attempting to justify clouds physical prowess and the severity of the ailment. Yet if this were true then why arent there cases of children committing suicide, lopping off afflicted limbs just to be rid of the pain while shrieking and writhing in agony? A stabwound in itself is a very agonizing and painful thing, which if particularly severe and major arteries or muscles are cut, would impair the victim from functioning to full ability (like it should have affected cloud), so an ailment that can surppass the pain threshold in terms of severity would likely lead to people dying in a period of days due too exhaustion, seeing as how the human body would eventually exhuast itself as it produces adenaline and other chemicals that would aid a person to endure intense physical hardship. Thus any really deep and unbiased thought would lead a person to the conclusion that the writers (I should state "writer" seeing as how its my personal theory that nomura wrote the script on his own, as it bears almost all his hallmarks, but Im giving square the benefit of the doubt) couldnt see fit to write anything particularly poignant about the geostigma.

It seems as this discussion has really run its course. take pride in the fact that you've given as good an argument in AC's favor as anyone Ive met, but its not good enough. If you cant respect and appreciate someone with a superior knowledge then yourself in a certain field (as I did when I applauded your knowledge of FFVII's script ) then there is no point in continuing on, seeing as how intelligent and respecful discussion is an impossibility. You had some interesting, yet misguided posts in your thread, but if you want to hear of them feel free to pm me and I'll discuss it further. Otherwise I see little point in continuing a discussion that is just going in circles with little respect or dignity.

This thread is officially over. Ookami, you would be well advised to keep such comments out of future posts. We do not allow for personal attacks on this forum.