United States: One Nation under ...??...

I recently found an artical relation to the battle of the phrase "One Nation, Under God" in the United State's Pledge of Allegiance. Basically what the artical said was this Principal in a Colorado Middle School decided for a ceremony, the students, instead of saying "under god" could say "under you own belief system." (I'm not sure if they said the actual words, or their what god they believed in.) Now, this has made quite a few Christian groups angry, as they say it's too 'politically correct.'

What does everyone in here think about this whole ordeal of 'one nation, under god..' phrase?


I personally think this Principal has the right idea. I mean, you can just replace god (or keep it) to whatever higher power you believe in. This would include the Christian 'God', The Buddhist 'Buddah', and all other diety figures. Though I don't really think it's something to get extremally upset over, as you could just simply not say 'under god.' But hey, why not be polite to everyone and let them say what they believe?
Athiests could just as well not say anything. Pretty simple really.

Thank you for your time :)

God shouldn't be "replaced" by anything. It should just be taken out completely. The only reason God is mentioned in the pledge of allegience is for propaganda purposes. It was never in the pledge initially. It was put there in the 1950's in an attempt to turn people away from communism. It's brainwashing, really. Not only that, but in the eyes of any "Christian" it should be viewed as blasphemy.

Oh yeah, and that principal is an idiot. I hate political correctness with all my heart, and I cannot stand those who engage in it.

Of course it's too politically correct for the christians, or whatever...Politically correctness is only good when it's in their favor. Same as freedom of religion/speech, etc.

I agree. Take it out completely.

Hell, take out the pledge completely. It is no different for American children to say the pledge than it was for Soviet children to "thank" comrade Stalin for all that he had done for them.

Haha.. yeah. I read about the communism thing.. and to some extent, it really is brainwashing.. kinda funny.

Welcome to America!

I told them in Civics that if this wasn't a dictatorship, then we'd better reread the definition. But all it got me was detention.
And therein lies the answer.

I agree that replacing "under God" with "under whatever the hell you believe in" is stupid. However, "under God" shouldn't be there in the first place. It was just put there to make us feel superior to the evil atheist commies.

YOU GOT DETENTION FOR EXPRESSING YOUR OPINION Kamiko?

Wow.

PS.. what is civics?

Under Liberty.

Now stfu.

civics is a prelude to government class.

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Originally Posted by Lindy

Under Liberty.

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I agree "Under God" should just be removed completely. I don't think those two words in and of themselves are a big deal--just don't say them if you don't believe in God--but it's unsettling that we can profess Separation of Church and State but have such a large populace of citizens so strongly in favor of keeping Christianity in the government.

As many have said...take that [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] out! One Nation indivisable is how it should be damn it!

Under the sea.

Under the influence.

Personally, I have no allegiance to a piece of fabric. I am proud of where I'm from, but I do have my issues with it. I think the pledge is unnecessary. This is not a Christian nation. It was founded under the idea of religious freedom, which includes freedom from religion. I you actually read the writings of some of our fore fathers (Especially Jefferson) they had no plans to make any part of our country Christian.
If people want to live in a country governed by religion, they should try living in Iran.


EDIT - I think that 'In God We Trust' should be scrapped from out coins too....

The phrase "In god we trust" is just a much nicer way of saying "This [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] is worthless metal" Basically the phrase means that in this day and age our money has no precious metal backing like in the past (when $1 was worth X amount of gold, and was only used as basically a deed to the gold in the federal reserve. in the current world, our money is calculated based on our entire economic system, you can't just cruise up to the federal reserve, turn in your buck and ask for your gold anymore. Our money has no backing, so we trust that our economy will hold else it becomes worthless.


Also, i don't get the bitching. It's the pledge, what are they going to do, suspend you if you don't say it? you don't believe in "under god", don't say it. You don't like this country? don't say it. It's a retarded argument either for or against "under god." I mean, really. You're swearing your allegiance to a scrap of fabric waving in the breeze, and to a country most of us bitch about on a daily basis. it's just rocking the boat for the sake of rocking the boat. wanna cry about something? How about Taxes. The Death Penalty. Abortion. Racial Injustice. Go rant about Mumia being locked up or why that poor little cute cuban boy couldn't stay in Miami. Rant about pointless wars and foreign dictators. Theres a helluva lot that's more important than "under god"

There are more important things to discuss in this country. I see a big difference between adding "intelligent design" to public school’s curriculum and fighting to remove "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance. People like to complain about the most insignificant things.

I don't say the pledge anymore.. I put my left hand over my heart and look the other direction.

Who honestly gives a rats ass whether its in there or not? I couldn't give two hoots whether its in there or not, because it doesn't affect my life. If you believe it affects your life, two measly words which for some reason you are just to damn stubborn just to ignore it, you need to reevaluate your life. If you don't like, nobody's forcing you to say it, and I'll be damned until someone tries to force it on me.

However, the principle should not care about what other people think, or their beliefs, because that's not his job. His job is to manage a school properly, and I believe that sends a wrong message to others on how his school is preformed.

Hawkeye's got it right. I really don't give a [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img]. =)

True, it doesn't really affect my life, and I could live without changes. However, the concept of brainwashing American children into being patriots bothers me. (Not that it's very affective, mind you.) It's just a dormant immorality in our public school system, and I think it should go. (Not just the under god thing, I'm talking about the entire pledge in general)

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Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Who honestly gives a rats ass whether its in there or not? I couldn't give two hoots whether its in there or not, because it doesn't affect my life. If you believe it affects your life, two measly words which for some reason you are just to damn stubborn just to ignore it, you need to reevaluate your life. If you don't like, nobody's forcing you to say it, and I'll be damned until someone tries to force it on me.

However, the principle should not care about what other people think, or their beliefs, because that's not his job. His job is to manage a school properly, and I believe that sends a wrong message to others on how his school is preformed.

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I had to say it throughout school. I got in trouble in some instances if I didn't. You're damn right I cared. You're not in the same situation as everyone else, and that doesn't mean everyone who's not exactly like you has to "re-evaluate" their life.

But yeah, take it out completely. It's insulting for it to still be in there...to our constitution and to Christianity.

I vote we replace it with "Hey America you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind, America!"

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Originally Posted by yingyang

I don't say the pledge anymore.. I put my left hand over my heart and look the other direction.

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Oh my gosh, I thought I was the only one who didn't say the pledge at our school. (She and I go to the same school folks) xD I'm glad you're with me A. Also you know how lazy I am too and I dont like talking a lot in the morning, I'm too tired. When I was younger I used to say it because it was encouraged and I also didn't really think about it a whole lot and just said it. I'm kind of taking a break from religion and really trying to look at things from a different point of view now, so until I really figure out what I believe, I'll just keep my mouth shut when we say the pledge every morning.

Things are beginning to change quickly at our school. Last year all of a sudden we had "tuesday worship" (which I didn't like because they trashed the orchestra room) and we have that thing where kids wake up at 6AM and stand by the flag and pray and stuff. x.x Then this year and last year, people handed out bibles. We're not teaching evolution anymore. Pshh. We're a public school! Granted these things aren't mandatory, but it still bugs me. x.x This is not my image of a public school, soon enough we'll be wearing school uniforms and saying a Hail Mary every morning.

Wow, I'm angry that religion is affecting my life and my school? I guess it was bound to happen.

I agree, take "under god" and all that god stuff out.

The pledge is ridiculous. Why pledge allegiance when it's frced upon you anyway? This nation forces patriotism, and anything less is 'wrong'. Fools.

That principal has the right idea. Political Correctness is the fairest way to do things, though i would prefer the pledge just be forgotten.

Please don't teach your kids the pledge.

Kamiko: WTF? They can't legally do that!

People seem to be awfully afraid of two little words. If you don't like it, don't say it, it just seems that simple. I find it a bit funny that people dub saying "one nation under god" as brainwashing. Yes, fear the 1950's attempt to breach the barriers of communism. I know I'd be afraid for my kids:mad:

The words are biased. It is, in a way, implying that in order to be a good american, you must be a good christian. The principal has a good idea, because it eliminates this unfairness.

We are guaranteed freedom to choose our own religion, not freedom from exposure to anything we don't agree with. You don't like it, don't say it. Stop bitching, it's only thirty seconds of your morning. Whether you like it or not, this nation was founded under God, and freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion. You don't have the right to never be offended. Sit down, shut up, and get over it.

Yeah because guys, if you aren't Christian, you fail at life, as just presented eloquently by our friend here. I think people blow the whole Under God thing out of proportion, but I think it's perfectly understandable for people to be upset when they utter a couple words that does not sit true with their lifestyle. Preach tolerance and try to see their point of view instead of telling people to shut up- oh wait, you seem to be in a religious majority. My mistake.

Let's send people back into the dark ages by forcing them into religion. That'll work. The land of the free indeed.

I was an atheist in high school (agnostic now) and I just didn't say the under god part, which was simple and effective enough.

I have no qualms with getting rid of the pledge. Though I don't exactly see it as brainwashing, I don't recall very many people jumping out of their chairs in excitement to say the pledge, if anything the endless repetition makes the words lose their meaning.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

We are guaranteed freedom to choose our own religion, not freedom from exposure to anything we don't agree with. You don't like it, don't say it. Stop bitching, it's only thirty seconds of your morning. Whether you like it or not, this nation was founded under God, and freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion. You don't have the right to never be offended. Sit down, shut up, and get over it.

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Actually, forcing children to say the pledge is a little more than "exposing them to religion". And while certain forefathers may have been Christian, this country was founded under the freedom of choice. And our freedom to choose our own religion or none at all IS violated here, because it forces people to verbally acknowledge a God that they prolly don't believe in. And that's something far different than being accepting of your beliefs.

I don't say the pledge no point I guess!

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

We are guaranteed freedom to choose our own religion, not freedom from exposure to anything we don't agree with. You don't like it, don't say it. Stop bitching, it's only thirty seconds of your morning. Whether you like it or not, this nation was founded under God, and freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion. You don't have the right to never be offended. Sit down, shut up, and get over it.

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So can we say "One nation, Under Satan Anally Raping Baby Jesus" and you'd be just fine and dandy saying it?

It's the Pledge, a symbol of our country. How you could not be insulted by it being a Christian and in the US Military just blows my mind.

I too think that "Under God" should be removed, for reasons already stated. I myself don't actually say them. I wait silently until everyone else has said it, then continue.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

Under the influence.

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I pledge allegiance,
to the flag,
of the United States of America.
And to the Republic,
for which it stands,
one nation,
under the influence,
Indivisible,
with liberty
and justice for all.

Yeah, that sounds much better. And a little more truthful.

Now I get the impression that the US is a drunk nation :P

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Originally Posted by TurkSlayer

I too think that "Under God" should be removed, for reasons already stated. I myself don't actually say them. I wait silently until everyone else has said it, then continue.



I pledge allegiance,
to the flag,
of the United States of America.
And to the Republic,
for which it stands,
one nation,
under the influence,
Indivisible,
with liberty
and justice for all.

Yeah, that sounds much better. And a little more truthful.

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That makes no sence!

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Originally Posted by Autumn Rain

Actually, forcing children to say the pledge is a little more than "exposing them to religion". And while certain forefathers may have been Christian, this country was founded under the freedom of choice. And our freedom to choose our own religion or none at all IS violated here, because it forces people to verbally acknowledge a God that they prolly don't believe in. And that's something far different than being accepting of your beliefs.

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Yet the pledge in and of itself is not religious. Nor is it forcing a set of religious beliefs or practices on anyone. It merely has the word god in it. As I mentioned in the post prior to yours, I was an atheist in high school and I just omitted the word god, thus rendering the pledge completely devoid of any religious connotation whatsoever. I wasn't forced to say the word god, (or the pledge for that matter). As an atheist I didn't feel that my rights were trampled on, at all. Just as I think anyone else could do. In the case of someone from another faith, I am sure that when they say the words "under god" it is directed toward their own god. So from their perspective, I don't see their rights being violated either, since it merely says "god" which is unassuming.

But, if you don't believe in god, there is no point in saying it. Religion and allegience to your country should not be treated as if it goes hand in hand, which is what the current pledge does.

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Originally Posted by My_Talim

That makes no sence!

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I personally think it makes more sense than the current pledge.

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Now I get the impression that the US is a drunk nation :P

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Exactly.

My geometry teacher makes us say the pledge and marks our grade off if we don't. Personally, I'm fine with it, but I understand that others aren't. She's not even legally allowed to do that anymore.

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Originally Posted by DMKA

So can we say "One nation, Under Satan Anally Raping Baby Jesus" and you'd be just fine and dandy saying it?

It's the Pledge, a symbol of our country. How you could not be insulted by it being a Christian and in the US Military just blows my mind.

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Honestly! (exdee)

If America wants to be taken seriously as a secular state then you simply need to drop the 'under God' bit.

It also helps NOT to have a president who says God guides his foreign policy & forbidding gay marrages for religious reasons.

It's very hard to be secular, but calling out other nations for having a religious state whilst living in a camouflaged religious state yourself & hoping no one will notice...that's just optimistic...especially when your own President says God's tells him to do things, where was this God while he was trying to find his way out of that press conference in China? That was hilarious.

You know, when we say the pledge of allegiance, it kinda reminds me of when I watch the History channel specials on Hitler. I think, "Hey, we both pledge alliance to our country and we both raise our hands in some salute." Coincidence or brianwashing? :P

Interesting to know:
~ I looked up the words 'Nationalism' and 'Patriotism' on dictionary.com. Answer= Definitions were the same.
~ On the Presidential note: I suggest you check out this song:
http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/bright...alkstogod.html

Bright Eyes "When The President Talks To God"

I'm more offended by the pledge in general than the "under God part." Once I was old enough to think about it, I stopped saying it. End of story. I don't really give a crap if they make kids say it; kids are made to do a lot of things before they're able to make proper decisions for themselves.

Though it was cool when it was my turn to hold up the flag in kindergarten.

I agree with Shlup on this one. I find kids being forced to say the pledge far more offensive than the "Under God" part.

They're just children, which, understandibly, is reason enough to punish them, but still, at least try not to force them into a pact that they don't realize they're signing.

I stopped saying the pledge years before I turned 18, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm not bound by it. I couldn't care less what happens to this country.

That's the problem with American Patriotism. It puts the country before the people, and that is never right.

OK, I'm not actually going too read through this thread due to how big it is, so I'm just gonna post my thoughts and go from there.

The USA was founded on the belief that all people deserved equality of religion. Back then Athiest/Agnosticism was not very popular and was considered not good. It wasn't considered bad, but not good either. But still, this country was essentially founded by people who believe in God. Get over yourselves.

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But, if you don't believe in god, there is no point in saying it. Religion and allegience to your country should not be treated as if it goes hand in hand, which is what the current pledge does.

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No, it doesn't. This country was,as said above, formed under God, AKA, many equality wanting religious fanatics. I don't believe in any sort of god, but I say the pledge to give my allegiance to the country that once was, and hopefully will become again.

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Originally Posted by ShlupQuack

Though it was cool when it was my turn to hold up the flag in kindergarten.

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Holy crap, I remember that. It was awesome.

The last time I said the pledge was when I went to Boys State in the summer before my senior year of high school. I didn't bother to think about it then because I was far to scared of the brainwashing I saw happening before my eyes.

this is old news, a bunch of people over the past few years have been trying to change that line, mostly athiests, the thing is tho, u just gotta stfu and deal with it, dont bitch about things u cant change

I so remember holding the flag in kindergarden! Though, I think I did make it drop to the floor once. I was yelled at for that ;_;

The thing is... it's a great argument. How far can we let religion go? Where's the line between reasonable and unreasonable?

I'm with those who think the pledge itself is a bigger problem than any particular part thereof.

Now, the pledge is fine if you're taking office, or become a police officer, or something like that.

Nobody else should be under any obligation or duress to say it though.

if your a citizen of this country you should say it, if you dont and you dont feel that this country is good enough for you then do everyone who is enjoying freedom a favor and get the hell out, by this i mean im sick of hearing people bitch and moan about whats WRONG with the country rather than whats right. the government cant make everyone happy and you couldnt do any better.

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Originally Posted by Karl

if your a citizen of this country you should say it, if you dont and you dont feel that this country is good enough for you then do everyone who is enjoying freedom a favor and get the hell out, by this i mean im sick of hearing people bitch and moan about whats WRONG with the country rather than whats right. the government cant make everyone happy and you cou;dnt do any better.

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Yes, because we should all just sit back and not try to change anything. We should still have slaves, women should have no rights, ect.

If you'd actually look at how that got into the pledge in the first place you should be pissed it's there since you love America so much. It was stuck in there for propaganda purposes, and wasn't originally there. It completely defiles the pledge in more than one way.

i dont care how it got there, i dont say the pledge or be some patriotic mindless moron, but i also dont go bitchin about the way things are, people always sayin like o this and this and this and this is wrong with the nation but it doesnt effect them in any way, saying the pledge doesnt effect anyone. if you dont beleive in it, dont say it, simple as that, this isnt a dictatorship, ur not gonna be killed for not sayin it, and most people here dont have to say it, no job u go to is gonna make u say the pledge unless ur goin into the military or somethin, if a school makes you say the pledge, just stand up and keep ur mouth shut, no big deal.

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I find it a bit funny that people dub saying "one nation under god" as brainwashing. Yes, fear the 1950's attempt to breach the barriers of communism. I know I'd be afraid for my kids

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But it is brainwashing and thats what it's origional intent was in the first place. If you acknowledge god, how can you be a communist? You can't, and so by forcing children to acknowledge god every single day it was hoped that Childrens belief in god would be reinforced.

You guys have to say it? Seriously? What happens if you all just don't? Do they give you detention for exercising your right to remain silent?

I never had to say anything in New Zealand as far as I know - but I think I have to pledge my allegiance to the crown if I want to become a British citizen.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

But it is brainwashing and thats what it's origional intent was in the first place. If you acknowledge god, how can you be a communist? You can't, and so by forcing children to acknowledge god every single day it was hoped that Childrens belief in god would be reinforced.

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thats stupid, thats like saying no communist citizens have religeons and only americans are christians

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

You guys have to say it? Seriously? What happens if you all just don't? Do they give you detention for exercising your right to remain silent?

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Yes. Just as you get detention if you swear despite freedom of speech.

Because you are forced to say the pledge in schools and stuff more people know that than the national anthem. I admit I don't know the national anthem except for the last part.

"PLAY BALL!"

I know "Oh say can you see" and that's it. But it's not my country. I never had to do anything like that in NZ, although I do know the anthem.

What IS the New Zealand national anthem?

No matter what it is, I bet it's a damned sight better than "God save the [Gender Specific Monarchial Title Here]".

God defend New Zealand. :) Most NZ'ers will only know the first verse of the English version by heart, and maybe the first verse of the Maori version.

EDIT: I never read that Wikipedia page before. I find it amusing that there's a possibility of our anthem containing a reference to a beer brand.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

God shouldn't be "replaced" by anything. It should just be taken out completely. The only reason God is mentioned in the pledge of allegience is for propaganda purposes. It was never in the pledge initially. It was put there in the 1950's in an attempt to turn people away from communism. It's brainwashing, really. Not only that, but in the eyes of any "Christian" it should be viewed as blasphemy.

Oh yeah, and that principal is an idiot. I hate political correctness with all my heart, and I cannot stand those who engage in it.

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Right on!!!!

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The USA was founded on the belief that all people deserved equality of religion. Back then Athiest/Agnosticism was not very popular and was considered not good. It wasn't considered bad, but not good either. But still, this country was essentially founded by people who believe in God. Get over yourselves.

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The country was also founded by people who lived before numerous scientific advancements. Should we go back to accepting that a pile of dirty clothes magically creates rats? The Founders believing in god is absolutely irrelevent. What the majority of people believed over 200 years ago is irrelevent.

Anyway, I agree that the Pledge shouldn't be forced in schools, period.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

Anyway, I agree that the Pledge shouldn't be forced in schools, period.

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It's not.

I've been though five different school systems in three different states since I started Grade School, and not one of them has forced all of its students to say the Pledge. The fact remains that if a student chooses not to say the Pledge, or any part of it, they don't have to. They have to be respectful enough to shut up while the rest of the class says it, but they can't be forced to say it. And if a student is forced to say it, they can present that issue to the School Board and probably get a teacher fired, as it's illegal to force their students to recite the Pledge.

So, again. You don't like it, sit down, shut up, don't do it. Bitching about it won't help your cause, it'll just make you look desperate and picky, so when you have something more important, your fight will be marred by the memory of the stupid crap you fought about before.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

God defend New Zealand. :) Most NZ'ers will only know the first verse of the English version by heart, and maybe the first verse of the Maori version.

EDIT: I never read that Wikipedia page before. I find it amusing that there's a possibility of our anthem containing a reference to a beer brand.

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I figured it'd be God Save The Kiwi Bird...

Sasquatch: What you say is true, but it remains the case that many students feel pressured into saying the Pledge. Now, for my part, I think they should be strong enough to resist, but that doesn't excuse said pressure.

Speaking of national anthems, I just noticed that in the English national Anthem of Canada meantions God, yet in the French version, there is no meantion of God...

its not like it says one nation under THE ONE AND ONLY ALMIGHTY CHRISTIAN GOD FATHER OF JESUS

the only people the anthem or any crap mentioning god should offend is atheists in which case thats their own choice to deny religion and they just have to deal with it, the country was founded on freedom of religion not lack of religion

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

Speaking of national anthems, I just noticed that in the English national Anthem of Canada meantions God, yet in the French version, there is no meantion of God...

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You missed it, then:
(bolded all religious references, bold+underline where it says "God").

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1. O Canada! Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix!
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.

2. Sous l'oeil de Dieu, près du fleuve géant,
Le Canadien grandit en espérant,
Il est né d'une race fière,
Béni fut son berceau;
Le ciel a marqué sa carrière
Dans ce monde nouveau.
Toujours guidé par Sa lumière,
Il gardera l'honneur de son drapeau,
Il gardera l'honneur de son drapeau.

3. De son patron, précurseur du vrai Dieu,
Il porte au front l'auréole de feu;
Ennemi de la tyrannie,
Mais plein de loyauté,
Il veut garder dans l'harmonie
Sa fière liberté.
Et par l'effort de son génie,
Sur notre Sol asseoir la vérité,
Sur notre Sol asseoir la vérité!

4. Amour sacré du trône et de l'autel
Remplis nos coeurs de ton souffle immortel.
Parmi les races étrangères
Notre guide est la foi;
Sachons être un peuple de frères,
Sous le joug de la loi;
Et répétons comme nos pères
Le cri vainqueur: «Pour le Christ et le Roi»
Le cri vainqueur: «Pour le Christ et le Roi».

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Edit: back to the topic. Here in France, kids are taught how to (badly) sing the Marseillaise, which, if you actually pay attention to what it says, are pretty strong words. At any rate, words only have as much power on you as you let them have. Some of you also make me sad by your total lack of faith in people being able to think for themselves when they grow up and choose if they want to mean what they said as kids.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

It's not.

I've been though five different school systems in three different states since I started Grade School, and not one of them has forced all of its students to say the Pledge. The fact remains that if a student chooses not to say the Pledge, or any part of it, they don't have to. They have to be respectful enough to shut up while the rest of the class says it, but they can't be forced to say it. And if a student is forced to say it, they can present that issue to the School Board and probably get a teacher fired, as it's illegal to force their students to recite the Pledge.

So, again. You don't like it, sit down, shut up, don't do it. Bitching about it won't help your cause, it'll just make you look desperate and picky, so when you have something more important, your fight will be marred by the memory of the stupid crap you fought about before.

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You misinterpreted what I said. I meant that public schools should not have a policy of teachers leading the Pledge, period. Indoctrination is not a good thing. You can't expect a 6 or 7-year-old kid to have the principles to go against what his teacher and friends say is right.

If one's love and loyalty are true, there's no need to mention it all the time. I don't wake up every day saying "I love mum, I love dad". I never went to school and said "I love my country" either. That would be disgraceful for all the people that lived and died, showing their love for their country and their fellow men and women, for what it really was.

It strikes me as freakishly fake and cosmetic (not to mention reminiscint of dark regimes) to 'pledge allegiance' to one's country. It should be something much, much deeper. It should be incorporated into your mindset that you are alive and well because of certain elements and certain people.

The most kids are asked (and not demanded) here that is even remotely close to a 'pledge of allegiance', is writing soldiers letters on holidays and giving them baskets with sweets and various other things soldiers might find useful (I got a bar of soap, among other things , some kid must think soldiers are really poor and dirty XD). For me, that's really all you need... action and not words, asking and not demanding, comprehension and understanding through actual thought and care - not automated rituals.

As for that whole 'under God' and 'In God We Trust' - I say, take it out. It's blasphemy anyway, so religious people don't like it, and it's incorporating religion into every-day things, so everyone else won't like it either. I fail to see the point.

How about this:

" One nation, divided over God..."

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Hell, take out the pledge completely. It is no different for American children to say the pledge than it was for Soviet children to "thank" comrade Stalin for all that he had done for them.

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THANK YOU!!! I haven't said the pledge in years. Doesn't mean I hate America. Quite the opposite, in fact. :mad:

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if your a citizen of this country you should say it, if you dont and you dont feel that this country is good enough for you then do everyone who is enjoying freedom a favor and get the hell out, by this i mean im sick of hearing people bitch and moan about whats WRONG with the country rather than whats right. the government cant make everyone happy and you cou;dnt do any better.

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So... we should eliminate progress? :mad: Personally, I think that wanting your country to be the best it can be is a way of showing respect. I love the ideals of America, and that's why I get so pissed off when people ignore them.

Its a conundrom. Our forefathers were christain, whom wanted to make a haven for freedom to worship. Unfortunatley, their safegaurds to keep the government a christain bases system did not work out too well.

However, forcing people to say God denies them that right to beleive nothing, and taking it out would prolly benifit the atheist movment more. I say we leave it just for tradition! Cheers!

Bipper

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Originally Posted by Endless

You missed it, then:
(bolded all religious references, bold+underline where it says "God").

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Okay, maybe I need to pay a little more attention; it been a few years (bad excuse on my part). Also the French national anthem consists only of the first verse.

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i dont care how it got there, i dont say the pledge or be some patriotic mindless moron, but i also dont go bitchin about the way things are, people always sayin like o this and this and this and this is wrong with the nation but it doesnt effect them in any way, saying the pledge doesnt effect anyone.

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Originally Posted by Martin Niemöller

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

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thats stupid, thats like saying no communist citizens have religeons and only americans are christians

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No, you just don't know what the hell you're talking about. "Under God" was added to the pledge to turn people away from communism, because in a communist society there is no religion. I may be wrong, and if I am someone please correct me, but in Soviet Russia you could not worship any religion openly.

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Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan

Okay, maybe I need to pay a little more attention; it been a few years (bad excuse on my part). Also the French national anthem consists only of the first verse.

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What? xD

The French national anthem consists of all of it. During events, only the beginning is played because it would be way too long otherwise.

Nic.. you're right. I checked. It says they added it during the space age because they wanted to be as different from the Russian's as possible or something. A

I loved you responce with the poem. I've heard it before.... and I totally agree.

War Angel... what an angel you are :D If everyone can, go up and read war angel's post. Good to hear from a soldier.

Seriously, we only learned the first verse, we learn nothing more of it. At school we sang the first verse only; we were taught only that verse.

BTW when I say French anthem, I meant the French national anthem of Canada...*sighs*...Me bad...

I'm pretty sure I learnt more than the first verse in school (although I forgot them since), and I was taught about all of it. We may never have sung it all, because as I was saying, it's way too long otherwise. Just the first verse + chorus is one minute long, they can't afford to play much longer than that during cermonies (and when they can, they play verses 1, 6 and 7), which is why we only hear (and remember) the first verse. But the anthem is the whole thing, not just what is played when a football/rugby match starts or when we win a gold medal in the Olympics.

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Originally Posted by nik0tine

No, you just don't know what the hell you're talking about. "Under God" was added to the pledge to turn people away from communism, because in a communist society there is no religion. I may be wrong, and if I am someone please correct me, but in Soviet Russia you could not worship any religion openly.

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just because they cant OPENLY worship doesnt mean they dont worship at all, people dont just give up all belief of their religion because some dictator says to

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Our forefathers were christain, whom wanted to make a haven for freedom to worship.

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Actually, quite a few of them were Diest.

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Our forefathers were christain, whom wanted to make a haven for freedom to worship.

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Thomas Jefferson was an Athiest.

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The country was also founded by people who lived before numerous scientific advancements. Should we go back to accepting that a pile of dirty clothes magically creates rats? The Founders believing in god is absolutely irrelevent. What the majority of people believed over 200 years ago is irrelevent.

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How can you compare religion to sceintific advancement, when only one has made major advancements in the last 200 years. And Karl seemed to get it said better than I did.

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...the country was founded on freedom of religion not lack of religion

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Originally Posted by Autumn Rain

But, if you don't believe in god, there is no point in saying it. Religion and allegience to your country should not be treated as if it goes hand in hand, which is what the current pledge does.

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If you don't believe in god then there is no point in saying the phrase "under god" if you remove that phrase then the pledge retains value (if you chose to see it that way). As was pointed out by other poster, the "under god" segment was put in to the pledge in the 50's. It was not originally there. The original form of the pledge was not religious at all, and the original meaning is not entirely altered by adding the phrase under god there.

I consider myself a Buddhist, and I don't even get a offended by the phrase, and I don't believe it should be even taken out of the pledge of alligence. If people could just stop being so anal about it like "OMG! IM SUPPOSED TO SAY GOD!!" but no ones forcing you to say it, if you don't want to then don't say god. How simple is that!?

You're missing the point. You can easily just not say it, but it is the principle of the matter. It should not be there to begin with.

I read an article with the same topic subject. Although I am catholic and worship God, and the virgin Mary, but I believe that should be taken out. Why?? Because not everyone's religious...

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just because they cant OPENLY worship doesnt mean they dont worship at all, people dont just give up all belief of their religion because some dictator says to

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Right, but "Under God" wasn't put wasn't put in the pledge to make us hate Russians, it was put in the pledge to turn us away from communism. If you get us believing in God we won't want to be communists because the Soviets did not allow freedom of religion.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

You misinterpreted what I said. I meant that public schools should not have a policy of teachers leading the Pledge, period. Indoctrination is not a good thing. You can't expect a 6 or 7-year-old kid to have the principles to go against what his teacher and friends say is right.

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You said , and I quote, "the Pledge shouldn't be forced in schools". Pretty simply stated. Not "Teachers shouldn't lead the Pledge", but "the Pledge shouldn't be forced in schools," which it's not. I was just pointing that out. And, tell me, how many 6 or 7-year-old kids are going to have a huge problem with saying the Pledge, or saying "Under God" with the Pledge? Maybe if their parents have a problem with it, they can cause an issue, then explain to their kid why he's different from the other kids because his mommy and daddy are closed-minded and arrogant?

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Originally Posted by Karl

just because they cant OPENLY worship doesnt mean they dont worship at all, people dont just give up all belief of their religion because some dictator says to

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The way some people seem to "think" around here, most populations are so gullible and malleable as to do whatever their government tells them, and the United States government "forcing" us to "recognize" God somehow interferes with their freedom.

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Originally Posted by Autumn Rain

You're missing the point. You can easily just not say it, but it is the principle of the matter. It should not be there to begin with.

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I disagree with, say, abortion. But making abortion illegal isn't enough. We also have to demolish every abortion clinic and toss everybody who ever worked at one on the street. Because it's not just abortion I'm against, it's the principle of the matter.

If you disagree with it being put in, fine. Disagree. But you're too late, it's in there, and we're not about to change something that's been around for longer than most of your parents have been alive just so you can feel good about not having to hear something you don't like. As I've said many times before, you do not have the right to not be offended. Suck it up and get over it.

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Originally Posted by War Angel

If one's love and loyalty are true, there's no need to mention it all the time. I don't wake up every day saying "I love mum, I love dad".

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I tell my parents I love them any time I or they go somewhere, and before going to bed.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

I disagree with, say, abortion. But making abortion illegal isn't enough. We also have to demolish every abortion clinic and toss everybody who ever worked at one on the street. Because it's not just abortion I'm against, it's the principle of the matter.

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Not even close to the same thing. No one is telling you to praise abortion in a national pledge.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

If you disagree with it being put in, fine. Disagree. But you're too late, it's in there, and we're not about to change something that's been around for longer than most of your parents have been alive just so you can feel good about not having to hear something you don't like. As I've said many times before, you do not have the right to not be offended. Suck it up and get over it.

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Funny how Christians are all uppidity about changing things they don't like, but don't dare change the standards they agree with. :rolleyes2

If people feel something isn't right, they work to change it. It's called "PROGRESS". You should look into it.

okay, so if 90% of the population wants to make murder legal do u think its gonna happen? just cuz a few select groups have a problem with the pledge doesnt mean they can do anything to change it, its old and the government has nothing major enough to make them change it right now, its not progress to remove a phrase from an old saying, its just pointless, if you dont like it, just dont say that part, lead by example

I love how you people compare taking the God out of the "Pledge of Allegiance" to asinine things like making murder legal and throwing abortion clinic employees into the streets. It just shows how much you're reaching to have an argument. :rolleyes2

Anyway... It's not about denying your God, this is about not making your God a national belief.

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Originally Posted by bipper

Its a conundrom. Our forefathers were christain, whom wanted to [strike]make a haven for freedom to worship[/strike] make more money for the English empire.

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Why does everybody think America was founded on Puritan principles? Roanoke and Jamestown were the first English settlements in America, and they were there for Financial reasons by the Virginia company. Same reason the Massachusetts Bay colony was founded, and most of the other colonies, not counting Plymouth.

Not only that, but the majority of the founding fathers were Deists (Not in the general believing in a god sense, but in the "a god created everything, but he hasn't done anything for years, sense,) with the notable exceptions (there are others, but these are the more famous)of Jay, Washington, and Franklin (Quaker). Not only that, but (excluding Washington) the first presidents, up to Jackson I think, were Deists of the Enlightenment variety.

America was founded to preserve people's life, libery and pursuit of happiness (property), and therefore establishes freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

As for leaving it up to tradition, why don't we just leave slavery up to tradition? Why didn't we make the USA a monarchy because of tradition? Traditions are the remnants of values that no longer hold sway in the modern world.

Anyway, the original pledge, as written by Francis Bellamy, is:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Of course this doesn't make it any better for it to be teacher led, take up school time, etc, but I felt that it should at least be posted in here.

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Thomas Jefferson was an Athiest.

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Not atheist, diest.

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Originally Posted by Autumn Rain

If people feel something isn't right, they work to change it. It's called "PROGRESS". You should look into it.

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Not all change is progress. Just to let you know.

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Originally Posted by Jebus

Why does everybody think America was founded on Puritan principles? Roanoke and Jamestown were the first English settlements in America, and they were there for Financial reasons by the Virginia company. Same reason the Massachusetts Bay colony was founded, and most of the other colonies, not counting Plymouth.

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The first settlements, yes, were founded as financial colonies. The country was founded, and populated, on religious principles.

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America was founded to preserve people's life, libery and pursuit of happiness (property), and therefore establishes freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

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Wrong again. Not to preserve life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness -- by the way, property has nothing to do with it -- but to preserve our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Nowhere does it establish that we shall be free of any encounter with something that offends or inconveniences us. And when the U.S. Constitution and all fifty State Constitutions mention God (that was another thing these schmucks wanted to do, rewrite all the Constitutions), it's pretty hard to say religious beliefs didn't have a huge part in this country's founding.

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Originally Posted by DarkLadyNyara

Actually, quite a few of them were Diest.

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/sigh - no they were not. I have had this debate before, and despite a bunch of skewed view points, they were not in anyway deist. As not to skew this entire debate out of order, you can pm me if you really want proof.

By the way, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson are the only two that most histroians would even consider to be diest (With remote relevence that is.)

Jebus, keep my post in context. I said our forefathers, not the people whom set up the first settlements. There is a huge difference between the first settlers and the historic grouping known as 'our forefathers'

Bipper

Yeah, I guess it was out of context, although the first settlers could still be considered forefathers of a sort, since they did found Virginia.

Also, it's true most of the fathers were Deist. Madison was one of the biggest Deists there. He actually would've been an atheist himself if Jefferson hadn't convinced him otherwise. Or was it the other way around...

Either way. America as a country was founded on Enlightenment principles of the right (for once Sasquatch was right about something, I meant to put "right to" in my other post) to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, or as it was in the Declaration of Independance, Life, liberty and property. The founding fathers set the country up, so that even if the majority wins, in this case the Christians, the minority still has it's rights. Which is why the USA was NOT set up as a Christian nation. Other wise we'd have a national church, and what not.

We were founded as, and should still be, a secular nation. We were meant to give the world an idea of what freedom was supposed to be. Leave it to religion to ruin that.

Because of foreing policy, we definatley needed a secular state. IE look at the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli or ("Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary") for a good look at the beginings of our foriegn policy. This will also concour with the reasons for needing a secular government.


For Adams:

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Adams also demonstrated his personal views on the subject in two passages in his "Defense of the Constitution":

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

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To those historians with a strange bias against Christianity, or admitting the forefathers were christain, this Is the type of context we can expect to see brought up. In reality, this is simply saying that this nation was founded by men, and will be ruled by men. (Under God or not). Also, these writtings are simply saying that our government does not appoint positions to people based on what GOD, a god, or any diety says

Thomas Jefferson :
Even here, Jefferson was a huge devoted christain. The thought of him being a diest is an age old myth. Jefferson was a member of an Angelic Church. He was Married in a chruch, attended regularly, donated gernerously, and even attended scripture studies.

Jefferson also never cut the word miracles out of his bible, as touted by these same historians. That is a blantant lie that I would not belive so easily. Jeferson did write an interesting adoption of the bible for the natives, if that might be what they were thinking of. This was a medium for him to convert the natives with. Miracles were never cut from these parchments either. There are scraps of this around yet. I belive it was an index, or a table of contents of sort, that pointed to several miracles.

Jefferson even wrote "Notes on Religion" which were nine (?) notes which were about the inspiration of the scriptures. He also proclaims Jesus as the Christ, and writes a very good peice of religous work.

He was not even against the seperation of religion and state. He may have been on some levels, but President Jefferson attend public worship services in the U.S. Capitol building, something he did throughout his two terms in office.

The bold text that says the government should have religous freedom, not be free of religon is a core belief of Jefferson as pointed out in several of his letters.

Madison: The Episcopal Church is the American branch of the Anglican Communion which Thomas Jefferson belonged to. This also happens to be the sect that Madison officially belonged to on records. Deism was a popular subject back then, thus the ammount of context discussed be people whom belonged to the christain church was not uncommon. The thing that urks me is that Deists constantly spam the internet with theses small snippets of information and letters which claim desim in all the founding fathers.


I beleive that this debate is relavant to the formation of the pledge of alligence. America, as stated earlier, is found with freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

Bipper

I know how to admit when I was wrong. But Deist or no, the first amendment disallows the government from putting down religions (unless the practices break laws, as in human sacrifice and whatever) AND it makes it so that government may not SUPPORT religion. Usually written as "the government may not support any one religion." That does not mean that the government may support all religions, as that disenfranchises atheists.

Majority rules, but the minority has rights. The government, foriegn AND domestic, must remain purely secular.

And the first settelment was in Vermont on lake champlain ;) William De Champlain came from france in 1609. He then proceded to build a church and colony but, it was soon detroyed by indians/sickness.

I believe people shouldn't have to say the pledge if they don't want too. I find it sort of silly just to exchange "under God." Doesn't really suit anyone either way. It just sounds like an attempt to get people to say the pledge reguardless by exchanging their own belief into the phrase.

I believe people shouldn't have to say the pledge if they don't want too. But since they are a resident of the United States I don't think it'd kill anyone to atleast stand for it. Even if you don't speak the words or place your hand over your heart.

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Originally Posted by Escobert

And the first settelment was in Vermont on lake champlain ;) William De Champlain came from france in 1609. He then proceded to build a church and colony but, it was soon detroyed by indians/sickness.

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First settlement was St. Augustine, Florida, settled by the Spanish in the 1400's.

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Originally Posted by Jebus

First settlement was St. Augustine, Florida, settled by the Spanish in the 1400's.

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Close, but not quite. That was in 1565. Also, technically, it wasn't the first American settlement, since it only became part of the "USA" in 1821 (when Spain left for good), and part of the Union in 1845 (when Florida was accepted as the 27th state).

Yeah, I'm always off with years.

And it was teh first NORTH American settlement if you don't count the Carribean. :D?

In any case it was the first settlement in the continental US. :p