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I just have a quick question. Between the tower of Zot and the Sealed Cave, is Kain really loyal to your party, or is he still under Golbez's influence and going along with you to get the other 4 dark crystals? I never really can tell if he comes back under Golbez's influence at the Sealed Cave or if he just always was.
He's loyal to your party. When you're leaving the Sealed Cave, Golbex regains his control over him.
Damn, someone beat me to the question. But, yeah. He stays a loyal, kick ass character until Golbez takes him away again. :mad2:
I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Kain wasn't initially brought over to the "dark side" by sheer magic alone. There's definately a story arc whereby he is jealous of Cecil for bedding Rosa after the two of them split up (that's Kain and Rosa splitting up for the record). This is evident in the way in which he address Rosa, especially with lines such as "I'll prove I'm superior than your darling Cecil". Though it's obvious that some magical influence was used to control Kain, it was obvious that Kain's own feelings and alliances meant that the magic could work in the first place. Put simply it's implying that Kain already had traitorous thoughts in his mind regarding Cecil, and Golbez was merely able to use that to his advantage. It certainly adds a bit more dimension to the character of Kain rather than just a goody two-shoes. Cecil may have been a dark knight but it's obvious that his heart was always in the right place. Kain's however wasn't, and probably isn't by the end either, hence his self-appointed exile...
...Gosh that was deep.
I don't think that Rosa and Kain were ever an item just Kain always having feelings for her. Rosa obviously loves Cecil very much since she became a White Wizard to help him just as her mother did for her father. As for Kain's betrayel, Golbez must of had powerful influence to make Kain betray his best friend. Though Cecil and Kain are rivals, Kain is loyal to Cecil which is why he defended Cecil against the king in the beginning of the game. I don't doubt that Kain is jeolous of Cecil because of his feeling for Rosa, as stated in the game but, I believe Golbez had to use magic on Kain or trick him somehow by bringing out these bitter feelings Kain has for Cecil or hence, his betrayel.
Kain is just too awesome, despite how easily controlled he can be
It seems to convenient to me that Kain would just traitor against his friends so simply without some sort of mental struggle. Golbez merely says "Come back to me Kain" and Kain obliges without a second thought. Either bad planning on Square's part, or Kain was just toying with Cecil all along and was still under Golbez's influence.
There was no struggle because Golbeza's influence was just that strong. He more or less allowed Cain to do the hero thing until they had the Crystal and it became convenient to retake him under his command.
Plus, after been beaten by Tellah and his Meteo, he made Cecil think that he no longer had control over Kain so Kain coould join the heroes and get the crystal
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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryűkishi
Beautiful...
Didn't some compaion book go into detail about this? Ryukishi?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain's_girl
You mean about the love triangle? From what I remember Rosa just chose Cecil over Cain; she and Cain weren't an item at any time. Aaron would be the better guy to ask, though, since he wrote numerous theses on this fascinating subject.
well, the FF4 Foundation Guide has Cain and Rosa being an item way before the start of the game, before he even gets his Dragon Knight training. However, due to a combination of Cain's long absence and (possibly) the fact that Cecil gets raised to the more powerful Dark Knighthood, she leaves him for Cecil. Due to this reason and a number of others, I dislike Rosa somewhat, since arguably, Cain wouldn't have been controllable by Golbeza if he hadn't had residual feelings for her. I don't loathe her as much as I used to, however, since I can kind of identify with getting lonely after a long separation; I'm more inclined to loathe the standard of a monogamous relationship that permeates pretty much all parts of society.
At any rate, the FF4 Foundation Guide was never released in English, but it was published by Square, apparently at around the time the game was released, so it's canon. It's also the source of things like the characters' last names and their heights and weights, which you can find all over the Internets (I even had that stuff on my old, old webpage before Comcast decided to 403 it).
I didn't know there was a FF4 Foundation Guide. That's pretty cool. I wish it were published in english so I could read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
well, if I decide to take Japanese as my language for my communications degree requirement, maybe I'll order it and translate it one of these days (however, that'll be a couple of years in the future at least, most likely). It always bugged me that this information wasn't more widely known.
Another Kain note, on the blue whale right after the Giant of Babil is destroyed, he states "Finally back to my true self" so he had to be under Golbez's control all along.
maxx power was definetly right. it worked easily on kain because he was jelous which made it very easy to control him to go against cecil. also when kain says "finally back to my true self." i think he means golbez wont be able to control him again and not that he was being controlled all along.
Every topic should have a statement along these lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf
So Kain and Rosa once were together and this is canon? Hum, very juicy to know.
This would change my perception of the characters deeply.
Going slightly off topic, does the Foundation Guide tell anything about what Barbariccia/Valvalis, the Fiend of Air, felt for Kain? Yesterday I played again through that boss battle and from the words she said, one could easily argue she was in love with him.
O_o what?
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Originally Posted by KoShiatar
I doubt that highly.
It seems the opposite of that to me. In the original and in the PS1 remake it seems they don't like eachother at all. I'm almost at the Tower of Zot though so Square might of had something going on between Kain and Valvalis. Though, they better not of.Quote:
Originally Posted by KoShiatar
I did not play the Playstation version, but a fantranslation (a very famous one) the translators of which claimed their accuracy. And we know some parts of the script haven't remained faithful even in the Playstation version (the speech about Kain's father, for instance). I'll try and get the text for you so you can judge by yourselves, but I remember, from some fanfiction comments I read, that I wasn't the only one to go under this impression.
The J2E translation? Those guys played rather fast and loose with the original script.
The J2e translation of the script did imply that Barbariccia had... feelings for Cain, but as 'Kishi said, they did take several liberties with the script in other places, so they may have done so here as well. However, the Tower of Zot battle is what reveals it. I've only played the J2e translation and the original, myself; can't be arsed with long loading times on the PlayStation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain's_girl
I had the text from the J2e translation up on my comcast site, but those guys 403'd it so I can't link you to it.
Damn those Comcast people.
And I don't think Kain really had thoughts about betraying Cecil even before Golbez controlled him. He was most likely angry, bitter, and jealous, yes, but I don't believe Kain would really have easily betrayed Cecil, who was like a brother to him, without Golbez' influence.
Just like I don't think he was under Golbez' control after Zot. Afterall, Tellah's Meteo managed to weaken Golbez, so it's entirely possible Big G didn't have enough energy/power left to control him. After all, he was almost defeated by Cecil and his companions in Giott's castle after Rydia rejoins the party. I like to believe that he had not fully recovered from his encounter with Tellah then.
Completely, 100% agree's with you. Oh, and I agree with you about Kain, too. :D I don't think he ever thought about betraying Cecil before Golbez, too. Now that I think about it, Golbez would of had to use magic on Kain. I mean, what reason would Kain be controlled again if he was jealous of Cecil the first time he was controlled. I get the feeling that Kain was over that by the time he gets controlled again. Unless he never really was over the control. This is becoming a confusing subject for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Takara
The idea is that Golbeza was able to control Cain because he had those underlying feelings deep inside, even if he never would have acted on them on his own. Same deal with Zemus being able to control Golbeza due to the darkness in his soul.
Kain loves Rosa, but Rosa loves Cecil. Cecil loves Rosa, obviously, giving up the world (the crystals) for her, and so the love triangle just ate into Kain's heart... ah man, I almost feel sorry for him.
I believe it's because Kain was jealous, and that is linked to one of the deadly sins, which is why he was able to be manipulated. Not because he all ready had thoughts to betray Cecil. They are best friends, I think Kain is man enough to know when he's beaten. It's just he was jealous and when he was manipulated, it just brought that out more and more. He wanted Rosa to come back to him on her own, so he tried to one up Cecil through manipulation. He didn't know he was manipulated, but it gave him a chance to do something to attract attention from Rosa.
Maybe he felt like a loser since his best friend was in love with the girl that he loved?
well, it feels like a betrayal on Cecil’s part as well as Rosa’s, and they were the two people he was closest to from a very, very early age. So I can definitely see how those feelings were there for Golbeza to manipulate. I really wish we’d learnt more about Golbeza’s background, though.
Yeah, I'd like to know what he was doing before Zemus snagged his brain and why he and Cecil were apparently raised separately.
Same here. It's been something that has been bugging me for a long time. Especially why and how Golbez and Cecil were seperated.
Golbeze is older for one, about 30 I think. I guess when KluYa died, he left his sons. Cecil was raised as the adopted child of King Baron, whereas wtf happened to Golbeze? Maybe they were together when the King found them and he saw more potential in Cecil so he left Golbeze to the wilderness or something. *Shrug*
you know, I think I used to know why the two of them were separated, but damned if I can remember it now. That really pisses me off.
Pfft Kain didnt like Cecil for taking his girl. Why do you think he becamse a dragoon? Do you really think its because of his father? No. its so he could jump 50 feet in the air while making love to Rosa. Then cecil came along and took her.
LMAO I was only kidding. On a serious note, yea I agree with what people said, deep down kain might have been jealous of cecil a bit but golbez pushed him across the line by controlling him.
I suggest everyone take a look at Cain's trial in the Lunar Dungeon.
kain's trial, you say? i don't remember it. but it's been ... a long time since i played FFIV. just got it as Chronicles, but i'm going to beat FFOrigins first. refresh my memory, please?
The lunar dungeon in question--and the character trials within--only exists in the GBA version of FFIV.
y'see... that explins a lot as to why i don't know a thing about it.
I doubt I'm going to have time to play the GBA version of FFIV anytime soon. So. Anyone mind posting a brief synopsis of what happens?
anyway.if kain was still being controlled by golbez hed just attack cecil, rydia,edge and rosa while they arent looking. kain wouldnt kill rosa but hed just put her out of action and kill the rest.
Yeah, you have a point. I doubt Golbez would want them still around and he'd order Kain to kill them, Rosa too if his control over Kain was strong enough. And, if Kain was still under the control, he would of helped Golbez finish the others off in Dwarven Castle.Quote:
Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf
I'd still like an answer to this question. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by The Man
what's happenin' freedo, lad? yeah i would like an answer to this question myself. i have the GBA version and i have read that kain gets more of his backstory revealed... but... where? when? i haven't noticed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
also sorry for bumping an old thread, but i think sometimes it's necessary. i'm not capable of re-creating this discussion in my own thread, which would make any point i wanted to add irrelevant (if it was in my own thread). yes.
Well, I think that Kain was under Golbez's control, but Kain (like Cecil) had a strong will, so why didn't he fight back? Simple, Kain might've already known that (WARNING SPOILER WARNING AHEAD STOP READING) Golbez was Cecils brother, Kain knew that Cecil was so close to the moon, so he didn't let it out, for fear of jeopardizing Cecil's quest
Dat's my honest opinion, but do keep in mind that this is a Final Fantasy, and the more beautiful points of these games are the ones left unexplained right? cuz an event thats a "variable" keeps you guessing, and compels you to carefully replay, and examine the games true beauty, over and over again. That is the no.1 reason why Final Fantasy is the longest running (next to that gay italian plumber who impales innocent turtles) game around. I've never played another game that could ever duplicate that original fresh authenticity, right guys?
Edit by Kishi: Don't double-post, and don't post at all in a huge obnoxious font.
I'm pretty sure it was Kain's own inner jealousy and insecurities that allowed him to be controlled, if all Lunarian mind control is like Zemus'.
Then again, the plot isn't terribly complex enough to warrant thinking about it too much anyway.
To answer what happens in Cain's Lunar Trial, this is a summary of what happens:
(SPOILER)
Cain enters his Lunar Trial, alone, telling the others to wait behind. When he enters, he wakes up in what seems to be Baron, and apparently a murder has taken place. Cain becomes the only subject, because of a mysterious 'Bloody Lance' found at the crime scene. After awhile, the Bloody Lance eventually 'follows' around Cain (as objects that are usually cursed and aren't wanted anymore are prone to do) and he is suspected even further. Cain does however, prove himself innocent by saving Rosa from the real culprit, but Rosa is only overjoyed to see Cecil again. No action for Cain tonight.
However, a mysterious figure wakes up Cain in the middle of the night the day afterwards. Cain follows the figure to the Devil's Road chamber, which now looks like the crystal altar on Mount Ordeals. Cain then sees Rosa and Cecil, and the mysterious figure. The figure calls out to Cain, urging him to kill Cecil with the Bloody Lance and prove he's the better man. You then have the option of taking up the Bloody Lance and fighting Cecil, but I always choose 'no' and don't really know what happens if you do decide to hurt Cecil. You'll then fight a dark version of Cain, the mysterious figure. After hurting it, it transforms into Lunar Bahamut, Cain's Lunar Summon for his trial.
You get to fight it alone. You never want to mess with the Lunar version of a guy who has a ho for a wife. It does the regular Mega Flare like normal Bahamut. Use Reflect with Lunar Curtains or input the Jump Command when the countdown gets to '2' to come down after Mega Flare. Put Kain in the back row to bounce off Lunar Bahamut's counterattacks, with Dragon gear it should only do about 200 damage, not very much.
After winning, Cain recieves the 'Dragoon Gloves', which turn his Jump command to 'Dbl. Jump' (Double Jump). This, duh, allows him to Jump twice, increasing Jump's power. Basically it always does 9,999. You'll also get the Abel's Lance (hee hee, allusions) which sometimes casts Weak on the target. Good for killing Brachioraidos.
Anyway, all is forgiven in this illusion of Baron, and Cain overcomes his inner darkness and jealousy, etc. Now go beat up that Easytype Zeromus.
Edit: Holy smurf. Kishi got a new set.
Opting to harm Cecil results in failure of the trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromus_X
New set, old thread. Too old.