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I know there maybe threads like this but its offical here. What are the do's and dont's on mixing class with class. I just want me and other people to really know what or what not to do when you get sub jobs. Like monk/red mage is sometimes a don't as though warrior/ninja is a do, I think. Anyways what have you found that goes together and things that don't.
/DRG ftw!
No... really... not a good idea.
Generally mage/melee is a bad combo for XP. There are situations, mostly solo, where this is okay. Melee/mage isn't a good idea either in most cases unless, once again, you are soloing. There are jobs that by their nature offer almost nothing when subbed.
/DRG (no wyvern... no good)
/BRD (only one very weak song... no thanks) I see this too often.
There are others but you get the idea. PLD subbing anything but WAR is pretty much a no-no except in endgame situations where a PLD/NIN can hold hate against HNMs with the help of a SAM/THF.
There are some workable combos that most people will frown up though. BLM/NIN and NIN/BLM come to mind. There are bigger downsides to NIN/BLM than to BLM/NIN though. Mostly a NIN/BLM will run out of MP and have to rest which slows down the PT if you don't have a refresher or a BLM/NIN with a ton of medicines. It is a very damaging way to go but very expensive and very misunderstood.
BLM/NIN has some benefits. You can do massive damage to the mob without incuring quite as much of his wrath. Some PTs like to have you /WHM to heal but in others you may find yourself (as I often do) sitting on 400+MP all the time because there simply is nothing to do with all of that MP. BLM/NIN also would be very costly but if played correctly could be quite nice as you could dual wield INT clubs for quite a boost (not to mention NIN has the most INT offered by a sub). You lose some MP but max MP is not an important thing as a mage as much as hMP is. If you are recovering that MP constantly your max MP means very little.
Yeah thats good you complelty covered the melee/mage, mage/melee stuff right away. why have a mage with a warrior sub? The answer is mages are used for casting spells not attacking. As for melee with a mage sub job? I haven't really frowned upon the subject as much. In fact I am really hoping people can come up with okays with this.
not all Warrior Subs are bad later in game.
Thief/Warrior.
I have played with many BLMs, the best BLM however is those that take over Silena when i am casting Regen or Hasting others, and those are with a BLM sub, the RDM sub this guy had yesterday was..ok but with cocks and when i steal hate and get silence(and leave my echo drops at home...but dont count on most to have them), theres nothing anyone can do(RDM subbed BLM). Personally, there are BLMs that can always find a use for their WHM sub, and i like them the best as they always try to maximize their potential, those that just sit there with 500 MP usually are disappointing when i have less than 100 MP. Because of most BLMs like that, i dont expect them to backup heal at all or help me out even when i have little, and they have a huge chunk left except a few i played with and will remember to invite again.
WTH, you dont use your Black Magic, you make sure you have Capped Ninjutsu and spin the elemental wheel with Elemental Staves. People parsed their numbers and found out that its quite possible to do good damage without spamming shurikens(its not in the same league, but its good enough).Quote:
There are some workable combos that most people will frown up though. BLM/NIN and NIN/BLM come to mind. There are bigger downsides to NIN/BLM than to BLM/NIN though. Mostly a NIN/BLM will run out of MP and have to rest which slows down the PT if you don't have a refresher or a BLM/NIN with a ton of medicines. It is a very damaging way to go but very expensive and very misunderstood.
/BRD post 50 on WHM or RDM is not completely unmerited. You still get an Accuracy +(i forget how much, at least 10..if not 5..which is a Sniper Ring's worth) with Madrigal, and Ballad is unaffected by singing skill hence making it worthwhile since its not only your MP you are refreshing, but the PLD/DRK/RDM/BLM/SMN/whatever magic guy you have here so its a multiplied effect which outweights /SMN outside certain end-game areas. Of course this is useless if theres a real BRD, but real BRDs are hard to come by and one of the coolest RDMs i had was subbing BRD and keeping everything up fine. Oh and if you have a RNG, Prelude wouldnt be that bad either.
/DRG...only time i remember was this RDM/DRG who used it for the equips(Latent: Sj DRG) which provided Haste and helped him beat Mission 5-1 with 5 seconds on the clock left. /DRG is also very good in Ballista, THF/DRG dominate the lower lvl brackets especially if someone wants to flee, just Sneak Attack => Jump and they take instant 100-150 damage, then chase them down. Pre 30, DRG sub can provide an Attack boost which is not that bad, however afterwards its pretty crap outside ballista. Jump also has a chance of having an "instant interruption" against Utsusemi players.
WAR/NIN outside of duo blink tanking, sucks pre-50 due to no real Haste output, and lowered TP gain(tested this with friend, you gain less TP than if you were to single hand it, however he knows it alot better, math cruncher), and hence why dual wield is mostly for off-hand bonuses which doesnt happen til lvl 48 Viking Axes and 50 for an Haste Upgrade. Pre-50, in general, this combination sucks unless you are with another WAR/NIN duo tanking. WAR/MNK and /THF outperform /NIN in exp pt. Promyvion however, they are alot better since they can negate damage better, however you require another tank with the same config as well.
Try DRG/WHM post 60 with AF helm, you can activate your breath at 50% life(or around there) and with Dia 7 MP, you can easily gain a CureIII worth of life back making solo reletively easy upon you. During certain HNM, DRG/WHM is very usefull too, however most dont take advantage of this.
Theres alot more but if we are to go over every sub its going to take a while.
Yeah it would take a long time to explain them all. How about this? The first topic still remains but for now what about your favorite to see? I enjoy seeing any whm/blm or blm/whm cause they balance each other out so much. mnk/war is nice too cause it shows the monk is willing to knock off some HP. I know this one monk though who had warrior as sub but never used provoke when we got a link or bad aggro. That type of attitude is something I really hate. I can kinda understand 'cause he said he died 5 times that day but we all were almost dead and he had full life. Oh well.
WAR sub for melee is mostly for Berserk, Warcry, and Double Attack, not Provoking.
so you'd leave that for ninja? I don't know I always liked war as tank.
PLD and NIN are the tanks later on. WAR's don't like to tank at all, they'd rather DD (don't blame them too much), but PLD and NIN sub WAR for the provoke ability (although I hear some NIN's like to sub BLM to do damage).
There are currently 3 accepted tanking jobs in this game(i believe there are 5 however, but currently community thought process elminates it i feel). WAR, PLD, NIN.
For PLD and NIN, they need to sub WAR to have Provoke which is undeniably the best and fastest hate gaining option there is in the game for that quick snap in hate. WAR themselves CAN tank throughout their lives, however the current trend is that WAR are DDs and cant tank, even though they can equip the heaviest armors. Its not that the WAR cannot tank, its that no one preffers to tank these days as a WAR for no real good reason.
The other two jobs i believe that are able to become tanks with the right gear/setup/mobs are MNK and SAM. However it was two years ago since i had a MNK tank (who did extremely well btw, only difference between WAR and MNK is armor and weapon selection for their tanking options ie: WAR/MNK(tank sub) and MNK/WAR), and most SAMs preffer not to tank as well even though i firmly believe if someone tried they will be able to do so.
I had a Samurai tank as my Whm in Qufim, and it wasn't bad at all. In fact, player skill (of everyone but me, because I was a first job newb) made the party one of the better low level parties I've ever had. In Crawler's Nest as my Blm, I had a Galka Monk tank. Once again, the party went swimmingly. You're right that these two jobs should be viable tanks. Samurai have the best parry skill in the game, and third eye. Their AF has enmity + and bonuses to things when recieving enemy attacks. It screams tank. Counter has to be the best defensive skill in the game. Why evade, block or parry when you can get the same damage negation and deal some of your own?
Why are these jobs not tanks? You're right - it's community stupidity. You might take a chemistry class and see whatever hundred elements there are on a periodic table. A FFXI vet sees only Oxygen because it's the most useful. Five food groups? The FFXI player sees only cereals and grains. No other collection of people on the internet is as artificially limiting as this. Min-Maxing gone entirely wrong. The 8-Bit Comics Rdm on crack. Still, I'm as addicted as ever. FFXI for life.
My friend was over the other day, and I showed him http://www.exploitsrus.com/ffxi_f.html It is a site with cheats, bugs, dupes, etc for final fantasy xi. He told me it was against the rules for ffxi to do this. Is this true? I am used to cheating on video games for my whole life, so I was sort of shocked to hear this.
Umm man, no offence but you've posted this everywhere on the web. I go to sites to see whats going on and there it is. A BIG FAT cheater. HOw you've done this IDK you may be over surprised at what you've found but it would then be a little obsessive. I think its a few people doing this. Please quit. but umm sure yeah its against the rules lol, really IDK
Now lets just forget what frotunda said and continue with the subject. Summoner is the worst thing I have ever seen as a sub job. Here's why, sub jobs are half of what your main job is. When you sub with smn and go to level up, your summon powers are simply never going to be at its full. lets say I wanted rdm/smn and was at the dunes. if I was rdm10/smn5 and casted a summon it wouldn't even hit the targets. cause the lowest you can be is level 10 to fight in the dunes now and days and level 5 is way out of the question. another is totally debatable and that is bsm (beast master) due to your charming abillity. You can't just go and charm a hard monster and get away with it so it you were subbing bsm you will have a very hard time charming a monster. rdm to me is one of the hardest to have a sub job for but the best that I have found is either whm or blm. with your rdm you can use a lot of white and black magic already. Makes you wanna just go ahead and level up a whm/blm or blm/whm instead of a rdm/whm or rdm/blm.
As far as the tanks go I have not wittnessed a sam tank but I soon will. mnks are way over looked and ninja seems to win the golden throne as well as pld cause of invisible. either way pld and drk are not very good to sub with eack other I don't think. I may be corrected.
nobody should ever sub /Pld
and the only ppl that would sub /Drk is High Lvl Rdm's for Stun
/BST can charm things like kraken as lvl 1, it just wont last as long is all.
Some /SMN over 50 for auto refresh and aerial armor.
For the bard side woot!!!
Okay best usbs for Bards in certain situations.
Anyway BRD/WHm is great if your in XP parties. They work well as backup healers. The problem I have with this is that most parties want to define the bard as a backup healer. Yes Bard is a support job, but you must understand that they are also buffers and shouldn't be completely relied on as healers..Though as backup healers they are excelent. As backup and depending on what level they are on.Due to the small amount of MP you will have. The reason why most EXP parties look at this as the best subs for Bards is to basicly put more responsibilities on them. Because apparently their job is easy(it is but it takes constant watch to keep up with songs).YOu really don't want oyur bard to be healing the whole time. BRD/WHM's are used as a last resort. LEts say the mages died and can't cure. the BRD/WHM can and if they are lvl 50 BRD/WHM then they can do raise. ITs useful. THats the definition of a backup healer.
(that took me like 4 months to figure out.)
Now for soloing depending on what your going to do. For EXP you might wanna do BRD/NIN or BRD/RNG. Sounds strnage. ANyway its both expensive and if oyu want to go the cheaper route then BRD/WAR. Anyway BRD/NIN you pretty much know whta you can do with a NIN subbed.. This is usefu;l because you can buff yourself up and if oyu aim to have a melee Bard(this is only useful in Ballista most players when this term is used will tend to be a smart a'word and want to yell at you and call you stupid for sayiung the term melee bard.).Anyway BRD/NIN is ok but if you use daggers for soloing.. I found BRD/RNG very useful if you ephemsize on your archery and marksmanship skills. I would work on marksmanship though and use guns.
ALso useful for ballista is BRD/THF .. One great reason for this is because your faster your more mobile. .YOu just have to focus on songs but not completely. You must also melee a bit. You can sleep things. You don't need spells as much in a ballista match except for your songs. The THF subbed gives you the steal ability in ballista and this is useful when you're stealing Petra's for the opposing team members.Being a backup healer is an option but I found ballista to be very mobile and really your teammates respawn. Your sub will not hinder your team's ability to win. What makes a ballista team a winning team is teamwork. Of course. Its keeping organized,aand ou and your team being able to adapt to changes and make some of those changes on the field. ITs not seperating. YOu stay in a group. Though the game gets lame when a team camps a rook. Find the other rook and FORCE them to have to camp two. IF oyu do this. YOu can basicly win a ballista match. BRD/THF is very useful in a ballista match when it comes to scoring and playing certain songs that disables the enemy player.
The classical RP form of BRD woul dhave to be BRD/THF. Though FF11 doesn't design this to be so apparently. IF you do this. Then thats great you wanna play the role of a Bard. That is a self serving musician who is also a thief and a low life.
Anyway all in all for any sub its whatever you want to do. Though when you do this. YOU must make it work out and fit a party format. ITs up to you and only you. YOu can take the advice of others, but I say experiement with different subs and see which one your most effective and most comfortable with. NEVER let a group or party dictate what you sub for your job. Because you have to deal with it and NOT them. Just do what feels right for you and do what you feel will benefit the team and ignore the skeptics who probaly has never tried the horrible job combos and has just heard it by word from someone else.
Lol for me the BRD/WHM that does Curaga's and helps me heal the non-tank will save me alot of mp and they gain it back by Ballad anyway. Therefore i can focus on Hasting other people, basically anything that can keep me resting longer or other people better, their MP is expendable.
BRD does not have a Marksmanship or Archery skill, so you cannot use any of those types of weapons anyway. I dont see where you even get that..O_o..and i dont see how a melee BRD can work out at all. You are too busy casting if you sub WHM and save everyone downtime.
I believe a BRD/WHM with blink and stoneskin is more useful than a /THF with Sneak Attack doing pidy damage and running away after a Lullaby in ballista. Although i have to say its kinda crap how they nerfed it in pvp.
In any case i still believe that its the party that decides whether to kick you out or not, if you are doing a subpar job, dont take advantage of it just because BRDs are valuable.
yeah it is crap how they nerfed up lullaby in pvp well its pretty much nerfed up in any situation. I had my singing and wind skills up to 150 and when I did lullaby on a valkrum mob. It like had no effect. Not saying bards are valueable so take advantage and yes a party does have a say so in kicking you, but they shouldn't kick you on your sub choice if oyu can make ends meet in a very efficient way. I say experiement and whe n I say that I don't mean in a party I mean on your own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Heart Lion
BRD/THF is useful for STEAL in a ballista match. IF you have ever used your theif job in a ballista and has done it. YOu discover you can steal most of oyur oponnents PErta's. I'm just naming some specifics here nothing big and I'm not dissing the BRD/WHM. The BRD.WHM is nice, but I've seen some taken advantage of and kicked out of a party for being a crappy healer. I mean I was thinkeing of course he's crappy being a healer isn't his main job and with ballad it only restores 1 MP every second. It really isn't fast enough to keep a sustainable amount of MP but BRD/WHM does help WHM which kinda goes along with my definition of a BAckup healer. Gives the WHM a temporary break to save up on MP for certain situations.
I've seen WArriors taken advatnage of I've seen WHMs taken advantage of and I've also seen melee jobs taken advantage of. PRetty much when a party put more responsibilities on you than anyone else and you do a great job at it but screw up one time and its like being threatened to get kicked. Then you are being taken advantage of.
I say yes a party and othe rplayers have influence over you and what ypou can do to your charcter, but this influence is so meniual. ITs so small that really its you who defines your cahracter its job and what its role in a party is. No one else. Also its your job to make sure you have control over your character why? Because its a video game. IF oyu don't alteast have a so-so what you do with oyur chracter your own chracter that you spent 30 bucks for software and spend 12 bucks a month for. Is in oyur influence and in our control, and yes MMORPGs have a tendacy to get to a point were players are dictating other players on what to do with their character's.
Steal is nice however i find it incredily risky...not saying crap but BRD DEF Is pretty crap, and if you can steal that means you are in the front lines, that doesnt sound that smart as it can easily get free Gate Breaches for the other side. You lose your ability to Sprint too once you steal, sure you can flee but ever 5 minutes is not that..dependable..same for Steal.
MP for BRDs are pretty easy to come by with a small pool, and post 55 you get BalladII as well and i have been with BRDs that do with what i described, they arent main heal but CuragaIIs and CureIIIs and Poisonas add up to alot of saved mp and they dont rest at all, whenever they can they help save MP.
And not to diss BRDs, but only becuase you are a BRD you can say you can do whatever you want, you get parties a dime a dozen, saying that to a melee is a huge no-no as they dont necessarily get parties for weeks if they dont make their own.
WEll most ballista's I played you stay were your team members are and you gang bang a player that is seperted from its group lol I steal the petras then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Heart Lion
Also I was a WAR I know the horros of waiting and all that crap..
nin/war is great to have and I have to say the job I look for most when making a party. My dream party is nin/war, whm/blm, drk/blm, pld/war, rdm/what ever, and thf/nin.
THF/NIn are freaking awesome.
Yes thf/nin is, so the grand meaning on this thread is too keep mages with mages subs and melee with melee sub. This is because of a balance in the world of FF11. the closest you'll get to a multi task is smn/rdm which I am leveling now. It includes all summons (only if you got them), some white and black magic. not at all am I saying its better, I'm just saying you get three types of magic. With ninja you will find you can solo a lot of quests and or missions due to some of its spells. Anyways be cautious of /smn /drg /bst because your pet will only be half of what you are and thats not good it you want to rely on them.
Totally untrue, you just have to be smart about it. A DRG/RDM or WHM can easily be a main healer at certain exp camps, as well as a efficient soloer thanks to their wyverns(now living and showing up longer!).
/RDM all you want is Phalanx, Dispel, and maybe Gravity, but with crap enfeebling i dont think Gravity is going to land. Everything else a WHM sub can do and do it earlier and better. I dont know if SMN get Enhancing magic though, but i assume they dont and Phalanx is going to be weak. Ignore all Elemental Nukes as you have no Elemental skill.
Ninja sub is just for Tonko(invis) and Utsusemi because ninjutsu has no bearing on how potent these spells work, hence why NIN sub is ok.
Alot of mages sub SMN after 50 for Aerial Armor and Auto-Refresh even if i am not a fan of it. /DRG is great pre 30 for that ATK Bonus that no one else gets and you get Jump, its moot once you reach 30 though with Berserk and Sneak Attack availible but from the 20-30 range /DRG is uncontested. /BST you can charm stuff, just not as reliable to be able to charm them, but its still fun to muck around with i dont think anyone found a use for /BST really...but dont be so quick to dimiss some combinations right off the bat. With enough thought even some of the wierdest combos can work out efficiently as the cookie cutters in different situations(just mentality now).
If I seen a war/whm,blm,rdm,smn I'd have to not invite if he is on a low level. I'm not givin suggestions out for people who are high enough to know better its for people who don't really know what to do. so 55+ you know, 1-55 help the party by having a good sub. anyways I got some ideas I want to ask everyone to see what would be good for mnk. would it be mnk/war, mnk/nin, mnk/sam, mnk/drk or pld, mnk/thf, ,mnk/drg.... I'm mnk/war right now, should I stay or use one of the above?
Also Lionx whm/war hmmm Totally untrue I think not.
I am not saying that we should all like a WAR/SMN, however a WAR/DRG 20-30 thats not tanking and is a DD is absolutely acceptable. A THF/DRG in ballista is more than welcome to my side with Sneak Attack Jump for instant 150-170 damage even against fleeing enemies.
If i remember right, my friend on my LS had a WHM/NIN tank with dual Pixie Maces and actually did ok since the monsters she was fighting was Mandragoras and they hit like pussies. On certain NMs at a higher level i can probably tank them as well with WAR sub like AF1 NM with Holy Breastplate or the lvl 75 Hauby-poser rare/ex body armor for WHM only(forgot name...reverned mail?). WHM hit harder than most mages per strike with hammers and its all about getting 100TP before running out of MP. That doesnt mean that WHM/WAR is good for exp, but for certain things i would think its not as bad as it seems, the only difference between RDM and WHM is Refresh/Convert/Armor selection, per hit WHM do more damage than them, however because they lack the option of survive long periods of time they can only last until their MP runs out whereas a RDM just has to last before Convert is up again and keep on going and wittle it down.
MNK/WAR-General party sub, most MNK will sub this througout their exp career for Berserk and Double Attack, and Provoke at lower levels. If geared right i am sure Provoke can make them good tanks. Double Attack and Kick Attacks post 50 make this a very scary combo.
MNK/THF-I dont see this being very useful outside of farming, the majority of Weapon Skills a MNK uses is multi-hit and Sneak Attack only works on their first hit. It could have its uses but i feel its more limited than WAR sub for general exp.
MNK/NIN-I seen a few of these use Utsusemi to negate damage at higher levels and solo a few things that they arent able to before. Mostly with Utsusemi Ni and Ichi combined, their attacks just gather alot of hate as it is.
MNK/WHM-HNM, Boost=>Switch to MND gear=>Chi Blast for 1K+ damage, WHM sub gives you alot of MND.
MNK/DRG-Ballista, great for those people hiding in Utsusemi and your next attack round is off, i have partied with a number of MNK and THF/DRG at lvl 30 and sometimes 40 caps(less likely but at lvl 30 its a great sub). MNK/DRG is also good lvl 20-30 if you got a competent tank where you dont have to provoke. The only time where /WAR really seperates from other sj is when they get Berserk, whereas otherwise the other ability they have is Provoke and since most MNKs dont tank and if you got a capable tank, theoretically it shouldnt be necessary and you can do more damage with +10ATK from the Attack Bonus and Jump for TP. Moot 30+ though.
MNK/SAM-Lvl 60+ cap ballistas, thats total bull how they can spam Raging Fist on your ass as well as get Kick Attacks. It MIGHT also be useful in other areas but not too sure at this current moment...
MNK/PLD or DRK i find no use for currently, if Last Resort and Souleater werent bad subbed /DRK might be a good one...but currently i cant see any use for these types of subjobs.
i told you /Drk only as a Rdm for Stun
although I once saw this Mnk/Drk we were lvl 30-40 somewhere in there and i was Drk/War. Not only was this Mnk doing more Dmg than me per fight, some of his punches did more than some of my swings, and monks get 2 punches a round.
Still i dont suggest anyone but Rdm sub Drk, the abilitys and traits are quite worthless to most other jobs.