The "Is Rinoa really you know who" Post- (Spoiler)

I recently read this on the Final Fantasy VIII FAQ post in the Final Fantasy VIII section of the forums:

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Question 4:
Are Rinoa and Ultimecia the same person?

Answer:
There is no clear answer. There's evidence that suggests they are, and clues that they're not. It's a widely argued issue, but one that's nearly impossible to resolve satisfactorily.

This is widely called the 'R=U' debate.
Thanks to twobitmage for recommending that a definition of 'R=U' be included in this FAQ.

New information:
The FFVIII Ultimania guidebook is an official publication containing detailed background information on Final Fantasy VIII. According to this guide, the sorceresses in FFVIII have normal human lifespans. As Ultimecia lives "many generations in the future", it is not possible that she and Rinoa are the same individual.
So much for that theory
Heartfelt thanks to Squall of SeeD for posting information from the Ultimania guide and putting an end to the most annoying debate in Final Fantasy history.

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Even though the above information may be true, Rinoa may have become Ultimecia in her lifetime and condense time to an earlier point when she was still Rinoa for the purpose of controlling her entire lifeline of existence. Besides, when one involves the alteration of space-time, all normal "lifespans" and "periods" go right out the window.

What do you guys think?

No.

It's pretty ridiculous. No.

Yeah totally no way at all no.

i thought we ended this a while ago. this theory is obviously false and everybody knows it is. a hint to NooBs dont start any R=U threads because they've already been done loads of times and theres not strong enough evidence to prove it anyway and its one of the worst video game theorys ever.

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Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf

i thought we ended this a while ago. this theory i boviouly false and everybody knows it is. a hint to NooBs dont start any R=U threads because they've already been done loads of times and theres not strong enough evidence to prove it anyway and its one of the worst video game theorys ever.

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You didn't read any of Future Esthar theories then.:love:

I completey disagree with the R=U theory, but I found this site that supports it. It doesn't provide evidence for anything, but they support the theory. They've taken things a bit to far though by making artwork to compliment their fanfics.

Oh, its all in German, but you can still view the pictures if you can't read anything.

i think lychon has a point....but the thing is that ff fans (just like star wars, star trek and about every other kinda fans) look deeper into the story and characters way too much in fact way more than the production team could of ever possibly done....so if it is true then it is PURELY accidental and was never actually intended by the team!

I've played the Game through atleast 4 times even if it has been awhile since i last played it i never have seen hints or clues to R=U theory. I suppose any theory that could be even considored would be that Ultimecia could be a dessendant of Rinoa. As Riona is the only Sorceress left at the end of the game and Ultimecia is generations after Riona, so perhaps she is her childerns childrens child, you get the idea.

HOW does Rinoa become ultimecia??? What is the event which leads to a happy girl in love to become a evil super bitch bent on destroying the world?



Ive said this before and its very obvious. Rinoa cannot be ultimecia. In the final battle against ultimecia, if Rinoa should be called out first, and she dies (like proper dies not K.O'd) then Ultimecia has killed the past version of herself. This means either a) she cannot exist and will simply vanish, or b) she will have created a time paradox


Likley, event b will take place. Basically, if you were to go back in time and kill your father as a child, then it is impossible for your father to have become a man and pass his seed onto your mother. Of course, this means that you never existed!!!! which means you could not have gone back in time to kill him. So everything is hunky dory. But because you are now alive you are going back in time to kill your father which means you couldnt of been born and couldnt go back in time to kill your father and so you dont and are still alive so go back in time to kill your father ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC

this is working a bit differently with rinoa and ultimecia. time travel is enabled through time compression, and it is rinoa who goes forward in time. But if rinoa dies, the same time paradox will occur

Reincarnation maybe. But then Ultimecia can be anyone.

This theory holds no candle to the ones of the phantom FE. anyways the theory is to me really unlikely, as to all theorys. If it was true the game would have milked it for what its worth.

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Ive said this before and its very obvious. Rinoa cannot be ultimecia. In the final battle against ultimecia, if Rinoa should be called out first, and she dies (like proper dies not K.O'd) then Ultimecia has killed the past version of herself. This means either a) she cannot exist and will simply vanish, or b) she will have created a time paradox

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Firstly, no one ever 'dies properly' in battles, they only get Knocked Out (ie. K.Od), so that point is mute. Regardless though, the fact that there MIGHT potentially arise a paradox does not rule out anything, simply because there IS never a paradox. Rinoa does not die in the final battle.
You cannot say that Rinoa cannot be Ultimecia simply because she MIGHT die.

That being said, there is simply no feasible way for Rinoa to become Ultimecia. The only plausible possibility was that sorceressess inherently had longer lifespan, but the Ultimania proved that wrong. Sure, you could come up with all sorts of crack-pot theories involving timetravelling, which could enable the theory to happen, but those theories would be just that; crackpot theories, which no basis at all.

For any other issues with the R=U theory, please check out the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ found here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Firstly, no one ever 'dies properly' in battles, they only get Knocked Out (ie. K.Od), so that point is mute. Regardless though, the fact that there MIGHT potentially arise a paradox does not rule out anything, simply because there IS never a paradox. Rinoa does not die in the final battle.
You cannot say that Rinoa cannot be Ultimecia simply because she MIGHT die.

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Of course i can :greenie: Ultimecia wants a world where she is ruler. There is no way in hell she would have risked being trapped in a time paradox

I've always enjoyed the idea of the theory, and would love it if true, but nothing in the game ever suggests it, so.. no, I guess.

If true, maybe she doesn't go on to become Ultimecia now, since now Rinoa knows and can work not to become her. If Rinoa did become Ultimecia once, perhaps the events in FF8 changed Rinoa's future forever. She probably didn't have Squall in her life when she became Ultimecia but now that she does, R=U = No more.

if you know who is ultimecia then yes rinoa is you know who

As much as I wish it was true (it would be such an awsome twist), it's not :cry:

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Originally Posted by Slade

As much as I wish it was true (it would be such an awsome twist), it's not :cry:

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It would be an incredible twist indeed. But Im glad its not, I like Rinoa and Squall. Such a thing if it were true would be very tragic, and I wouldnt like FF8 to end knowing that Squall and Rinoa turn into hell bent nightmares in the future.

So,:) no...

Ok, well obviously a lot of people don't like and/or disagree with this theory. I'm just saying that since the events in Final Fantasy VIII are supposedly "just the tip of the iceberg," then the idea of R=U may in fact be a possible contender for the continuation of the Final Fantasy VIII universe. This continuation may be in the form of a sequel, or perhaps more likely, a prequel, with new and old characters included in the development of the saga. I doubt that the creation of Ultimecia, through the interaction of the game developer and character designer, left the sorceress with a completely empty and unrelated background to the main events in Final Fantasy VIII. Most likely, there is something unrevealed and hidden, and the possibility of one of these secrets seems to be the idea of R=U. Hopefully one day, we'll have a continuation...

Actually, I like the tragic element that R=U brings to the storyline. It makes it (for me at least) a lot more ....classic..... i guess you could say I'm old fashioned with my story preferences, but oh well.

Anyway, I think Squall and Rinoa's love for each other is so strong tha Rinoa could become Ulty simply because she wanted to see him so badly. We all saw what Squall was willing to do just to hear Rinoa's voice again. I also like to think that the promise they make in Edea's house is great support for the theory. And, since Square just came out and said that it was impossible, I've just gone ahead believed it anyway. I think its called Final "Fantasy" for a reason.

BTW I'm new to the forum.... this place rocks.

I dont want a continuation. FF8 wraps up very nicely. No plotholes, or loose ends, and all the characters make out well.

Reality blows...Final Fantasy Forever!!! Besides, the idea of "what" reality is can be subjective, and may be impossible to prove as the one and final truth of existence. Therefore, an illusion (or fantasy) which relates positively to realm of its creator (i.e. the creator's reality) can be just as real, helpful, genuine, and perfect in its subsistence. This is because in the universe of the fantasy, reality becomes it, and the creator of that illusion can experience the illusions' reality through certain mediums in his/her own reality. In conclusion, Final Fantasy rules all.

In the game we learn that Ultimecia never had a knight and is what was said to have tainted her. Riona however has Squall as a Knight plus is generations before Ultimecia the only possiblity would be that it was once Riona's powers as she is the only Sorceress left in the world when they defeat her.

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Originally Posted by Lychon

Reality blows...Final Fantasy Forever!!! Besides, the idea of "what" reality is can be subjective, and may be impossible to prove as the one and final truth of existence. Therefore, an illusion (or fantasy) which relates positively to realm of its creator (i.e. the creator's reality) can be just as real, helpful, genuine, and perfect in its subsistence. This is because in the universe of the fantasy, reality becomes it, and the creator of that illusion can experience the illusions' reality through certain mediums in his/her own reality. In conclusion, Final Fantasy rules all.

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YES! :D Real life would be much more awesome with gunblades, monsters, summons, sorceresses, huge ass swords, magic, moombas, moogles, ::rambles on and on::

Yup, I agree with you on that Noj_R...now, I must return to building the Final Fantasy Holodeck- Star Trek style!

-Alex

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Originally Posted by Noj_R

YES! :D Real life would be much more awesome with gunblades, monsters, summons, sorceresses, huge ass swords, magic, moombas, moogles, ::rambles on and on::

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Real life is chaotic.

I believe it.
http://www.balamb.org/ultimecia/rinoa.html
Sadly the images arent included in this one, but its the same info I discovered on another site. The images were from the final FMV (I think it was) and you see quick flashes of Ultimecias eyes over Rinoas eyes. But IMO I believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia. Agree or disagree if you wish, but thats what Ive always believed.

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Originally Posted by ~SapphireStar~

I believe it.
http://www.balamb.org/ultimecia/rinoa.html
Sadly the images arent included in this one, but its the same info I discovered on another site. The images were from the final FMV (I think it was) and you see quick flashes of Ultimecias eyes over Rinoas eyes. But IMO I believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia. Agree or disagree if you wish, but thats what Ive always believed.

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I read half of that and got bored. It revolves around the indication that sorceresses don't die. but it's been stated in these forums over and over that square released an official statement saying that sorceresses have an ordinary human lifespan.

I guess theres evidence supporting both ways, however its still a theory. Unless square decied to do a sequel/prequel (game/movie) and clear up the theory nobody can say for sure if R=U

Did you read Fact 8 at all?

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Fact 8: There are 3 Full Motion Video shots of Ultimecia in the game, all are at the ending, and last less than 1/10th of a second each, barely visible (did you notice them?). Why would square go to all the trouble of making the fmv if no one were to see it? Square aren't stupid, they wouldn't waste time and money for nothing.

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if you remember the last scene (just after the final battle and just before the last fmv) youll remember squall ends up back at the orphanage and sees edea get her powers and he also meets a past version of himself aswell which means that the game is actually a closed circle paradox!

Since obviously people don't usually read the entire 15 post topic before posting, I'll reiterate myself:

1) Rinoa cannot live long enough to become Ultimecia, who lives hundreds of years into the future. And no, crackpot theories involving timetravelling or being frozen down in the Sorceress Memorial doesn't count as anything but crackpot theories.

2) For a breakdown of the whole theory, all it's flaws and supposedly good arguments, please read the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

Please, before coming with more 'arguments' from websites, just at least skim through the Ultimecia section there.

rinoa is not ultimecia, but she is a weak-ass character! ;)

Yep. A "weak-ass" character with the 2nd or 3rd best Limit Break in the game.

good limit break, weak-ass character and someone who most definately could never in all the of her life could ever be as powerful as ultimecia...

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Originally Posted by omegaweapon2005

good limit break, weak-ass character and someone who most definately could never in all the of her life could ever be as powerful as ultimecia...

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This is a very good point, but once again, we can't know for sure. Just like the fabled appearance of Luigi in Super Mario 64, the R=U debate seems destined for posterity...or at least until people get bored of this thread, since I now remember how many threads there already are dealing with the same thing, lol.

I would also like to point out that the final fmv bit does nothing to convince me of the "truth" in the R=U theory.. Especially since they look nothing alike. Their facial structures are completely different. It proves nothing.

Plus, as stated before, Sorceresses have normal life spans and Ultimecia is said to live "generations into the future".

It's not remotely possible. The only thing that keeps this theory going is fanboys that want to claim they know the "truth".

They're not the same person but Rinoa did inheret her powers so she should've been able to take her on by herself. The cycle goes Ultimecia dies, Edea takes Ulteimecia's powers, Ultimecia gains control over Edea, years later. Edea's powers are given to Rinoa, gets possesed and unpossed and Squall and the party go to defeat Ultimecia which she dies and Edea takes her powers again at the orphanage.

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Originally Posted by Autumn Rain

I would also like to point out that the final fmv bit does nothing to convince me of the "truth" in the R=U theory.. Especially since they look nothing alike. Their facial structures are completely different. It proves nothing.

Plus, as stated before, Sorceresses have normal life spans and Ultimecia is said to live "generations into the future".

It's not remotely possible. The only thing that keeps this theory going is fanboys that want to claim they know the "truth".

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I agree. Square has said themselves ( this is indisputable evidence ), sorceresses live normal lifespans and Ulti is years down the road. I dont know what started the R=U theory anyway, there is no evidence. You can claim there is, but the truth is it is all circumstantial and is probably out of context.

Though it does give Ulti motivation if she is rinoa for time compression. She wants to compress time so Squall can be there in the present forever with her. But that makes no sense either considering she doesnt even know squall when she sees him...

Square's evidence obviously debunks it, but there is just enough stuff to get noobs jumping around in excitement at the thought of this revelation the minute they see a thread pertaining to it.

And thats what keeps the theory alive...

Rinoa is only weak if you let her. She was part of my super party.

as far as the R=U theory, i think it is all symbolism!

Griever represents Squall, in the little piece of land there isolated by himself.
Griever is the protector of Ultimecia.
So Ultimecia/Griever symbolize Rinoa/Squall.
Rinoa is not ultimecia, but ultimecia merely resembles her.

And yet there are those guys who do tons of scientific research on time loops and crap liek taht to keep the theory alive.

I tried reading one today and I felt like I was in science class. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Jesse1

Rinoa is only weak if you let her. She was part of my super party.

as far as the R=U theory, i think it is all symbolism!

Griever represents Squall, in the little piece of land there isolated by himself.
Griever is the protector of Ultimecia.
So Ultimecia/Griever symbolize Rinoa/Squall.
Rinoa is not ultimecia, but ultimecia merely resembles her.

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yeah, thats about as far as it can go. But I dont think Rinoa even remotely resembles Ulti.

There is no way Rinoa is Lord Voldemort. Its just not possible.

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Originally Posted by omegaweapon2005

good limit break, weak-ass character and someone who most definately could never in all the of her life could ever be as powerful as ultimecia...

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She is??????

But I still believe in this.

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Originally Posted by Big D

That's debatable

The truth is... Jenova is Ultimecia.
Yep, FFVII's 'background villain' is actually Ultimecia.
There is IRREFUTABLE PROOF in both games.

Jenova can survive travel through space. Thus, Jenova could get from one world to another. If the worlds of FFVII and FFVIII are in fact the same world, then this is fine too - Jenova can survive for millennia, buried in solid rock.

"But Jenova was destroyed!" you all cry. Actually, Jenova's body has the ability to re-form when it's dismembered - even when it's apparently dead.

Both Jenova and Ultimecia are female, and both want to attain God-like power and rule over an entire world.

Jenova has the power to change her form. Ultimecia transforms, as well. Jenova can alter her appearance, gaining the appearance and voice of other people. Jenova and Ultimecia look nothing alike, which proves that they are one and the same, just using different forms.

This is utterly, completely, irrefutably, incontrovertibly, undoubtedly, undeniably, undisputably, indubitablly, unquestionably true.
Coz I sez so.

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You might want to check this out.

The random theories are especially annoying in this game with the time travel. You know how that is...gets your brain in loops...

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Originally Posted by omegaweapon2005

rinoa is not ultimecia, but she is a weak-ass character! ;)

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while in space she is possessed by ultamecia

Lets get this straight...

Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia, Square has said ( this is a fact ) that sorcerresses live normal lifespans. Ultimecia lives " many generations in the future ". If anybody is confused about what a "generation" is, it is the average span of time between the birth of parents and that of their chilren. Roughly 25 to 45 years, many generations probably meaning like 250 years in the future ( at least ). Rinoa cannot possibly live that long...Riona obviously cannot be her.

Jenova is NOT Ultimecia, Jenova is more like a retarted mass of limbs and such, she looks nothing like her. Nanaki at the end of FF7 runs and sees Midgar, hundreds of years after the events of FF7. Midgar is still there. Why isnt it seen in FF8? Because FF7 and FF8 are not connected. And if they were, Jenova could not have survived the hundreds of years after the events of FF7. In FF7, Jenova does not talk, she is a monster not a actual person. So how did this monstrosity make the jump from retarted mass of limbs to tyrannical queen of compressed time? She didnt, because the games arent related.

Squall is NOT Griever, he was created on the spot by Ultimecia by taking Squall's thoughts and transforming them into the beast you fight. If the R=U theory has been proven false ( which it has been "see up above" ), then obviously so is this one. Squall could not have lived hundreds of years in the future, he is human and has a normal life span. Thus, Squall cannot possibly be Griever.

The evidence given by Square is irrefutable ( they have the last word on the subject ). R=U and S=G simply is not possible. You cannot say that there is still evidence unless you dont believe Square ( and that makes you a fool ). The J=U is simply ridiculous, for this to be true means all the FFs must be related. But they arent. All the FF are seperate games. The music, magic, creatures, etc. are there to help continue the traditions and quality of one of the best game series ever made.

These theories CANNOT be true, Square has confirmed it, so drop it.

The topic:
The "Is Rinoa really you know who"

Ive got one thing to say. no, she is not voldemort. :D

I would have liked it if it were true. I think it would have added depth to a very shallow villain, and give the story a hint of tragedy, but still leave us with a happy ending and the hope that the possible future which they experienced will change what their fates become.

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Originally Posted by Roogle

I would have liked it if it were true. I think it would have added depth to a very shallow villain, and give the story a hint of tragedy, but still leave us with a happy ending and the hope that the possible future which they experienced will change what their fates become.

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I agree completely. I wish they developed it to fit the plot, but I guess you got to appreciate it for what it is, not for what it isnt.

Its still my favorite game and still has a satisfying ending, thats what counts for me. :cool:

Doesn't it say something about this in the announcement?

Rinoa is not Ultimecia. Stop talking about it already.

concerning the whole j=u debate theoretically it could be possible.....but it isnt! lol :D

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Originally Posted by Kamrusepas

Doesn't it say something about this in the announcement?

Rinoa is not Ultimecia. Stop talking about it already.

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it also says no more R=U threads to be made :greenie:


as far as i'm concerned, just beacause some guy says its true and makes some crackpot "proof" doesnt mean anything.





It probabley went a bit like this:

Drunk man 1: dude, rinoa is ultimooosia man
Drunk man 2: totally
Geek: omg that could totally be true, let me find some evidense backing up that crazy stupid, unrealistic, insane and whacky theory

next day
Geek: I posted it all over the internet guys
Sober man 1: we were joking man
Sober man 2: smurfing idiot
Geek: Boo hoo



:greenie:

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Originally Posted by shinangel2292

it also says no more R=U threads to be made :greenie:

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Yes. It is time to start making threads that say Rinoa is equal to Ellone.

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Originally Posted by Heero Yuy NWZC

The topic:
The "Is Rinoa really you know who"

Ive got one thing to say. no, she is not voldemort. :D

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Dude, I beat you to it ages ago.

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Originally Posted by Mittopotahis, 5 POSTS BEFORE YOURS

There is no way Rinoa is Lord Voldemort. Its just not possible.

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sry. :D i couldn't resist saying it.

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Originally Posted by Christmas

Yes. It is time to start making threads that say Rinoa is equal to Ellone.

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That would mean Squall made out with his foster sister >_<


Remember that thing about symbolism I was talking about? Well consider that, and U/G is the evil R/S.

I'm really sorry, but if Rinoa WAS Ultimecia, then she would be killing herself. Which would be impossible, because if Squall and co. DID kill Ultimecia, then Rinoa should've vanished forever (probably leaving Squall heartbroken and depressed), same with Squall fighting Griever. So therefore, the theory is false. Actually, I thought Griever was Seifer and Ultimecia was another form of Edea. Oh dammit, I have that choir song in my head from the beginning of the game. And it was there ever since I played it (6 months ago).

totally true.

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Fact 8: There are 3 Full Motion Video shots of Ultimecia in the game, all are at the ending, and last less than 1/10th of a second each, barely visible (did you notice them?). Why would square go to all the trouble of making the fmv if no one were to see it? Square aren't stupid, they wouldn't waste time and money for nothing.

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OMG...not another thread about this...:eep: Anyway, back to Fact 8 ...I have recorded the begining and end (some other cool parts too) of Final Fantasy VIII on a DVD and watch it every once in while. I put it on yesterday to watch for fun with my sister, and decided (for the 1st time) to watch the ending in slow motion cause it goes by so fast. And you get to see a lot of things you can't really notice watching it regular, including Ultimecia at the end, and they show her a few times in different positions, and then right after that it goes back to Rinoa. While I think it would be very interesting for them to be the same person, but they aren't. My views are basically the same from what everyone else said about Rinoa not being Ulti. Square might have just put it in there to either: A: trick us or B: put a FMV of her just cause we really never got to see her up close. And don't forget, Squall was going crazy, and a lot of random scenes were popping through his mind, and it would make sense for Ulti to be there cause he just fought her, and cause she's the effin' villian in the game!!! But they did put it there intentionally. If it were anyone in the game, I believe it would be Edea. Here's my theory from the other thread:

1st of all: Ultimecia looks nothing like Rinoa (my weakest reason)
If Sorceresses are immortal (as mentioned previously in other threads) then their appearence really wouldn't change that much. We see Edea at the orphanage 17 years before with Laguna, and during the credits. Even when she's pocessed she looks similar.

2nd: Her castle is also convenietly right next to the orphanage. Hmm...

3rd: There are all of those White SeeDs lying dead on the ground. Wouldn't it be ironic if she killed them? Edea, the one who took care of them and suddenly be the one who takes their lives...

4th: At the end of the game, when Squall is in the past with Matron, Ultimecia appears and gives her powers to Edea/Matron. If she was indeed Rinoa, she would have gone to a period in time where Rinoa was, and give her powers to Rinoa to power up her past self. But no, she gives them to Edea, which will give her stronger power.

5th: At the end of disc 2 Edea (being pocessed by Ultimecia) says to Squall something like, "So you are the SeeD destined to face me." We don't know at this point that she isn't Ultimecia, so we believe Edea is talking about herself, and that we're destined to face Edea, and that Edea is the ultimate villian in the game, until we find out about Ultimecia. :p

Alright...beddy bye time for me...:kaosleep:

Angel Wing: You should read through the thread before posting you know; we've already established that Rinoa is without a doubt, NOT Ultimecia, and cannot ever be her. :rolleyes2

Rinoa is not Lord Voldemort, Ultimecia, or whatever. Rinoa is Rinoa.

Ultimecia isn't Jenova, either. But, most certainly, Ultimecia is Quina. Now go find some yummy-yummies. XD

Well, I can confidently state that I do not believe Rinoa is Ultimecia as of now. I do believe that Rinoa is the most beautiful, spirited, and the overall best female character ever designed to grace a fictional/ factual medium.

Yuna comes close to her, in my opinion, but Rinoa Heartilly is THE pinnacle of female design.

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Originally Posted by dante the demon prince

while in space she is possessed by ultamecia

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if you watch the movie that shows what happened after you beet edea the second time (the movie on disk 3) the movie in space i think it shows ultimicia possesing rinoa

personnally i have always said no up until my last play of the game. it is all based around Seifer's dream of being someones (in the case a sourcerouses) knight. that someone is Rinoa and as we already know they met way before squall and rinoa. Seifer comes to what he thinks is rinoa's aid by holding the president Delling, i think it was him) at knife point.

so far he is being her knight....

so why would he change to Edea's kinght so fast?

she being controled by ultimecia (who could be Rinoa) is therefore technically Rinoa, so as a result he does not become someone elses knight however still is Rinoa's knight.

now saying this i dont think he knows they are the same person but subconsiously i think he feels a conection which is why he became edeas night because he felt rinoa in her(ultimecia)


reading this throu...ya its not well explanned so sorry =)

No no no....

Its already proven Rinoa is NOT Ulti. So in relation to the above post. No, it doesnt make any sense.

Most people believe some weird " someone = ulti " in order to make sense of what Ulti is trying to accomplish. In otherwords, her actions just dont make sense and they need a theory to make sense of it. I agree, Ulti's actions dont make sense, but do they have to...?

For example, look at Hitler, he had an insane power trip goin and almost took over the world. His intentions were as clear as Ulti's: To become ruler of the planet.

So Ultimecia's intentions dont really matter because when someone is insane, they dont tend to make much sense. Ulti ( to me ) appears insane and power mad. Her intentions to dominate the world in a godly state outside of time doesnt stem from some childhood abuse or a lost love ( squall, etc ). Her only motivation is her insane hunger for ultimate power. The conquerers of old in real world history had no real motivation either. They simply wanted world domination just like Ulti.

So you see? Ultimecia doesnt need real intentions to dominate the earth when she has insane reasoning to do it for her. And we dont need theorys to explain something that makes sense when you think about in a real world sense.

After all, Bush = Hitler ( B = H ) doesnt make much sense either :D

What do you guys think about this? Does it make sense?

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So Ultimecia's intentions dont really matter because when someone is insane, they dont tend to make much sense. Ulti ( to me ) appears insane and power mad. Her intentions to dominate the world in a godly state outside of time doesnt stem from some childhood abuse or a lost love ( squall, etc ). Her only motivation is her insane hunger for ultimate power. The conquerers of old in real world history had no real motivation either. They simply wanted world domination just like Ulti.

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This is very commen in villains. Nobody questioned Skeletors reasons for wanting to dominate the world. Nor did anyone make any insane theories like Skeletor = Beastman (the S=B theory, well we know they are homosexual lovers anyway, that much was proven)



On your B=H theory........no comment

Noj_R, those seem to be worthy considerations to me. But as far as Hitler's and Ultimecia's actions lacking crucial underlying causes, I don't agree.

Hitler was convinced that Germany had suffered unjustly in World War I due to the greed and corruption of the European Jews. This developed into a perpetuating obsession with the restoration of his "Aryan" race by destroying the enemy he deemed responsible for all the worlds ills, the Jews. Hence, this obsession turned him into a power-hungry, hateful man, who eventually became so driven by his beliefs that he lost all objectivity on matter and fell into insanity.

Ultimecia, on the other hand, seems to have no revealed history as to what caused her to become so obsessed with universal domination. As far as I can tell, there is always a cause for an event, and whether that cause is random or not doesn't change the effect it has on the world. Therefore, since Ultimecia's past is not revealed, and the story of Final Fantasy 8 is so incredibly complex, people tend to believe that something in the main plot is significantly or at least partly related to the final boss of the game (such as R=U).

What I don't believe to be true, albeit still possible, is that Ultimecia is just a random baddy who's actions merely coincide with the development of the main characters. She's got to be related somehow.

As far as Bush=Hitler, wtf? That doesn't make any sense, but I will admit that it is possible that Hitler's cerebral cortex and/or conciousness was somehow transplanted onto a young George Bush with hitherto undisclosed government technology, in effect creating the grandest conspiracy of all time: to make Hitler President of the United States of America! (Yes, even grander than the whole Jesus had descendants theory, and they will soon take over the world- for all you Da Vinci Code people...lol)

The A-Man

Actually, there is a connection given.

We aren't given Ultimecia's motivations, and I personally neither like nor put much stock in the R=U theory (as it's been disproven), there is a reason that the main cast is linked to Ultimecia; a reason that she chose that time, of all times.

It stems from Junction Machine Ellone, and from the fact that FF8's time, I think, is rather set. Ultimecia used the machine, and saw a point in the far past that she could reach--why? Maybe she didn't know, but the reason, I think, is that Edea had her powers, and thus, she could reach Edea through Junction Machine Ellone. From there, she just needed a third point in time, as she didn't know of anyone in her past who might have had use of the JME.

There; no need for Rinoa to be something she isn't, while Seifer can easily be explained as a combination of ambition and magical influence.

Lychon I agree with your post as well.

My Hitler example was a little misleading as we both know it was a mixture of anger, revenge, political and financial strains on Germany that led to the rise of the nazi empire. I was trying to give a well known example of inanity in a place of power, just as Ulti is. I believe there are a number of examples of people in places of power soley for the reason of gaining more power ( which is how I perceive Ulti ).

The reason I believe her motivation is a simple lust for power is the failure of the game to put forth any other alternative to her actions. The R=U theory is dead rendering the S=G theory false, and J=U simply makes no sense seeing how there is no relation to any of the games. So I am made to believe ( and this explains for lack of Ulti character development ), that Ulti is simply an insane human with great powers who wishes to gain more power, this makes the most sense instead of making a theory up to explain for " missing plot points " and such.

It makes sense when added up with Dr. Odine's comment ( this isnt an exact quote ), " why would someone want to compress time, it does not matter ".

Ulti doesnt need a motive when her only motive is insanity, and this theory makes the most sense, at least to me.

As for the B=H theory, just a little political irony...:p

(SPOILER)I thought Rinoa was just possessed by ultimacia and so was edea, Before rinoa got "edeas powers" and, Because of that she got possessed by ultimacia, cuz ultimacia could use her "new" powers for "bad" , As she did to edea.I guess that ultimacias plan was to revive adel and use her powers to rule in "their" world... ? so NO

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Angel Wing: You should read through the thread before posting you know; we've already established that Rinoa is without a doubt, NOT Ultimecia, and cannot ever be her. :rolleyes2

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.....It was 1:50AM okay...like I feel like reading through all that crap anyway...:eep: We already have a thread about this, and I was just saying how I saw Ultimecia at the end also, and how I thought she was Edea. And if you look below at _yeojina_'s post, you will see that my post had something to do with the topic. yeojina posted this 2 posts before me!!! So I wasn't going off topic if that's what you're getting at. Maybe YOU should read the thread all the way through!!!:hot:

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I'm really sorry, but if Rinoa WAS Ultimecia, then she would be killing herself. Which would be impossible, because if Squall and co. DID kill Ultimecia, then Rinoa should've vanished forever (probably leaving Squall heartbroken and depressed), same with Squall fighting Griever. So therefore, the theory is false. Actually, I thought Griever was Seifer and Ultimecia was another form of Edea. Oh dammit, I have that choir song in my head from the beginning of the game. And it was there ever since I played it (6 months ago).

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We don't say things like this to other members.

~Void

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and Ultimecia was another form of Edea.

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Good to know I am not the only one.
Ulti=Edea=Julia.

The thing is:
The very assumption that she comes from the future was not even proved.Not even the doctor can.

Sorry, Angel Wing, you are quite right; it was I who had not properly read your post. I skimmed through, and figured you were making another set of arguments for the R=U theory, when in fact, you were discussing Edea being Ultimecia (which by the way, is impossible too, as Edea is not a sorceress by the end of the game).

So sorry about that, again. About Ultimecia though, she's simply Ultimecia. She isn't anyone from the era that our heroes belong to. She was born in the future, and as a natural part of her human lifespan, grew up to become Ultimecia. It seems highly likely that she was driven to evil/madness because of history: the damage done by Ultimecia would have been recorded in history, meaning the eras after Squall would know that a sorceress would sooner or later arise, who would be Ultimecia. This would strengthen anti-sorceress attitudes probably to the point where sorceresses were persecuted from ther inception(remember Ultimecias speech through Edea to Galbadia, after killing the president; all about persecution of sorceresses etc.). Ultimecia was probably thus born into a world that hated her for crimes she had not yet commited, driving her into evil/madness.

This is a brief summary, of course. A full account on this theory can be found iin the FAQ I have referenced to earlier.

One final comment, which I hadn't yet spotted:

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I'm really sorry, but if Rinoa WAS Ultimecia, then she would be killing herself. Which would be impossible, because if Squall and co. DID kill Ultimecia, then Rinoa should've vanished forever (probably leaving Squall heartbroken and depressed), same with Squall fighting Griever.

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This is not a valid argument. By your logic, I should be dead right now, because at some point in my future I will die! Killing your future self has no bearing on your present self. It is only killing your past self that would cause a paradox.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Good to know I am not the only one.
Ulti=Edea=Julia.

The thing is:
The very assumption that she comes from the future was not even proved.Not even the doctor can.

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That is simply ridiculous...

Why do you guys have to make it more complicated than it is. There is no evidence suporting the idea that Ulti is anyone other than herself.
She is simply an insane witch hellbent on reaching a a godlike status outside the confines of time!

Nobody asks Bowser why he kidnaps Princess Peach all the time. it must be that he is really Toad in disguise! That would makes sense since Bowser has no motive, and the game MUST be more complicated than that. T = B...heh heh... :rolleyes2

The fact is Ulti is simply insane, and there is nobody else involved. QUit making the game more complicated than it is already :eep:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

This is not a valid argument. By your logic, I should be dead right now, because at some point in my future I will die! Killing your future self has no bearing on your present self. It is only killing your past self that would cause a paradox.

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That's what I was about to say, but then I remembered about Time Compression. While they are in a time compressed world, every single moment is compressed into one. To kill someone here would mean they cease to exist, past, present, or future. So, rather than just traveling forward in time and killing your future self, you are in EVERY moment at once killing YOU (you, you. not future past or present you) infinite times.

The whole thing is impossible really what with all of the...um...infinity for lack of a better word.

Look!!! I managed to do that without getting my head looping around in circles!!!

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Originally Posted by Jesse1

That's what I was about to say, but then I remembered about Time Compression. While they are in a time compressed world, every single moment is compressed into one. To kill someone here would mean they cease to exist, past, present, or future. So, rather than just traveling forward in time and killing your future self, you are in EVERY moment at once killing YOU (you, you. not future past or present you) infinite times.

The whole thing is impossible really what with all of the...um...infinity for lack of a better word.

Look!!! I managed to do that without getting my head looping around in circles!!!

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Isn't time compression simply used for making the jump into the future. They do not fight Ultimrcia in a time compressed world. Time is being compressed when they travel to Ultimecia's point in the time line. And then is compressed again after the battle to return to their own point in time

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Originally Posted by Jesse1

That's what I was about to say, but then I remembered about Time Compression. While they are in a time compressed world, every single moment is compressed into one. To kill someone here would mean they cease to exist, past, present, or future. So, rather than just traveling forward in time and killing your future self, you are in EVERY moment at once killing YOU (you, you. not future past or present you) infinite times.

The whole thing is impossible really what with all of the...um...infinity for lack of a better word.

Look!!! I managed to do that without getting my head looping around in circles!!!

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A good point: in a Time Compressed world, killing your future self would be exactly the same as killing yourself. HOWEVER, you're forgetting something: Time Compression was never completed!

It is stated several times, that ONLY Ultimecia could exist in a time compressed world. Since at no time do the heroes cease to exist, we can conclude that TC was never fully completed. Maybe very nearly, but never fully.

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Isn't time compression simply used for making the jump into the future. They do not fight Ultimrcia in a time compressed world. Time is being compressed when they travel to Ultimecia's point in the time line. And then is compressed again after the battle to return to their own point in time

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Not exactly. The timetravelling is possible because of time-compression, but is not it's main purpose. Time Compression is, as indicated by its name, meant to compress all of time into a single point, which Ultimecia could then absorb, giving her near limitless powers (she'd absorb all the sorceress powers for one). So when TC starts, time starts getting messed up, and the party can use their willpower to will themselves to Ultimecias time.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

The thing is:
The very assumption that she comes from the future was not even proved.Not even the doctor can.

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The script proven it. WANNA SEE???

Ultimecia is just nuts.

Why does no one ever ask why Kefka wanted to take over the planet, or X-Death, or Kuja?

All of them are insane and craved power.

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Laguna: That's the spirit! Then, Ellone sends Rinoa and [Ultimecia to
the past]! Ellone [brings back Rinoa]! Then [head to the future through
compressed time]! Ultimecia lives far in the future where none of us
can technically exist. There's only one way to make yourself exist in a
world like that! As friends, don't forget one another! As friends,
believe in one another! Believe in your friends' existence! And they'll
also believe in yours. To be friends, to like one another, and to love
one another... You can't do these things alone. You need somebody. Right,guys? What place reminds you of your friends? Imagine being in that
place with all your friends. Once time compression begins, think of
that place and try to get there! That's all! That place will welcome
you. You'll be able to get there no matter what period you're in! You
need love and friendship for this mission! And the courage to believe
it. It's all about love, friendship, and courage! I'm counting on you
guys!

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Something to add on is that you might get send to HAPPYLAND upon defeated and not reviving your characters in time. This is because the bond is broken.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...Ultimecia2.jpg

Also,from the info here show that Ultimecia is absorbing everything while fighting you in the end.

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Originally Posted by Sir bahamut

Not exactly. The timetravelling is possible because of time-compression, but is not it's main purpose. Time Compression is, as indicated by its name, meant to compress all of time into a single point, which Ultimecia could then absorb, giving her near limitless powers (she'd absorb all the sorceress powers for one). So when TC starts, time starts getting messed up, and the party can use their willpower to will themselves to Ultimecias time

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Ah yes, of course :)

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Originally Posted by aisle_s

Ultimecia is just nuts.

Why does no one ever ask why Kefka wanted to take over the planet, or X-Death, or Kuja?

All of them are insane and craved power.

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Kefka is just plain loopy. X-death is a really intelligent black mage (well,.... so so intelligent. He kinda didn't see the void comin did he)

People have left kefka alone, but theories on X-death have been discussed. He once used to be a tree y'know :P when he is engulfed by the void, its plainly obvious he isn't X-death anymore despite his name being Neo X-death. His motives completley change and some thought this could be the physical manifestion of the void. Some also thought that it could be Enuo as he once was able to control the void. anyway thats discussions already taken place in the ffv forum.

I agree entirely on Ultimecia being none other than herself though. Just because X-death, kefka and most obviously sephiroth were given back up stories, does not mean ultimecia has been too. The plot throughout the game leads up to an obvious deduction that a sorceress from the future is behind everything. The plot progresses nicely and and shows the face of everything that has happened at the end.

Furthermore, how can Ultimecia possibley be given any back up story when she is from the future. No-one knows who she is. It creates a mystery about her. That should be enough.

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Originally Posted by _yeojina_

I'm really sorry, but if Rinoa WAS Ultimecia, then she would be killing herself. Which would be impossible, because if Squall and co. DID kill Ultimecia, then Rinoa should've vanished forever (probably leaving Squall heartbroken and depressed), same with Squall fighting Griever. So therefore, the theory is false. Actually, I thought Griever was Seifer and Ultimecia was another form of Edea. Oh dammit, I have that choir song in my head from the beginning of the game. And it was there ever since I played it (6 months ago).

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maybe they were fighting their manafested inner demons? and about that choir song its doin the same to me!

Inner demons that take over the world?

No.

Well if Kefka can be 'just plain loopy' then I say so can Ultimecia. Zeromus does really have a clear objective either if I remember correct...nor does Yu Yevon, he's just kinda there and where he came from is never explained.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Sorry, Angel Wing, you are quite right; it was I who had not properly read your post. I skimmed through, and figured you were making another set of arguments for the R=U theory, when in fact, you were discussing Edea being Ultimecia (which by the way, is impossible too, as Edea is not a sorceress by the end of the game).

So sorry about that, again. About Ultimecia though, she's simply Ultimecia. She isn't anyone from the era that our heroes belong to. She was born in the future, and as a natural part of her human lifespan, grew up to become Ultimecia. It seems highly likely that she was driven to evil/madness because of history: the damage done by Ultimecia would have been recorded in history, meaning the eras after Squall would know that a sorceress would sooner or later arise, who would be Ultimecia. This would strengthen anti-sorceress attitudes probably to the point where sorceresses were persecuted from ther inception(remember Ultimecias speech through Edea to Galbadia, after killing the president; all about persecution of sorceresses etc.). Ultimecia was probably thus born into a world that hated her for crimes she had not yet commited, driving her into evil/madness.

This is a brief summary, of course. A full account on this theory can be found iin the FAQ I have referenced to earlier.

One final comment, which I hadn't yet spotted:




This is not a valid argument. By your logic, I should be dead right now, because at some point in my future I will die! Killing your future self has no bearing on your present self. It is only killing your past self that would cause a paradox.

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Thank you Sir Bahamut, I appreciate your apology, and I'm sorry if I sounded kinda mean in my last post... Just one more thing, I didn't post this last statement:

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I'm really sorry, but if Rinoa WAS Ultimecia, then she would be killing herself. Which would be impossible, because if Squall and co. DID kill Ultimecia, then Rinoa should've vanished forever (probably leaving Squall heartbroken and depressed), same with Squall fighting Griever. So therefore, the theory is false. Actually, I thought Griever was Seifer and Ultimecia was another form of Edea. Oh dammit, I have that choir song in my head from the beginning of the game. And it was there ever since I played it (6 months ago).

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_yeojina_ posted this 2 posts before MY post. Sorry for the confusion.

I know that was not your post, don't worry. Sorry if that was the impression I gave.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

I know that was not your post, don't worry. Sorry if that was the impression I gave.

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That's okay:) I was reading through my other post, and again, sorry for sounding bitchy, and thanks again for the nice apology...you're one out of many who would be so sincere about it.:mad: EVERYONE, FOLLOW SIR BAHAMUT'S EXAMPLE!!!:D WE NEED MORE GENTLEMEN LIKE HIM IN THE WORLD!!!:grinpink: :choc2:

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Originally Posted by *~Angel Wing~*

That's okay:) I was reading through my other post, and again, sorry for sounding bitchy, and thanks again for the nice apology...you're one out of many who would be so sincere about it.:mad: EVERYONE, FOLLOW SIR BAHAMUT'S EXAMPLE!!!:D WE NEED MORE GENTLEMEN LIKE HIM IN THE WORLD!!!:grinpink: :choc2:

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alright, no need to kiss his arse :rolleyes2

:D totally i agree. sir bahamut you the man :cool:

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Originally Posted by shinangel2292

alright, no need to kiss his arse :rolleyes2

:D totally i agree. sir bahamut you the man :cool:

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I wasn't suckin' up, I was just letting everyone know that's how respectable people should act. OOOO I think somebody's jealous...:jokey:

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Originally Posted by *~Angel Wing~*

I wasn't suckin' up, I was just letting everyone know that's how respectable people should act. OOOO I think somebody's jealous...:jokey:

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you muppet. i had my jokey joke, then i agreed with you :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by *~Angel Wing~*

That's okay:) I was reading through my other post, and again, sorry for sounding bitchy, and thanks again for the nice apology...you're one out of many who would be so sincere about it.:mad: EVERYONE, FOLLOW SIR BAHAMUT'S EXAMPLE!!!:D WE NEED MORE GENTLEMEN LIKE HIM IN THE WORLD!!!:grinpink: :choc2:

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Haha, well, thank you for that, but it really is the only thing you can do if you realise you made a mistake. ;)

If only FE could be more like Sir Bahamut. Then maybe his theories wouldn't be so annoying.

I guess I forgot about TC not being completed, oops...

ish, i got involved with the whole dying-in-time-compression thing that i forgot that Rinoa wasn't Ulti.

Anywho for future note, sometimes the stories have plotholes, so the script isn't always relyable (not that it isn't now).

If Rinoa was Ultimecia, then it would have been more heavily hinted, like laguna being squall's father. There are several things that lead to that, whereas the R=U just notes a few similarities between the two. I mean, it may as well be Edea=U if you put it that way.

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If only FE could be more like Sir Bahamut. Then maybe his theories wouldn't be so annoying.

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Be like how?

There is no proof for the R=U theory, its all mostly phrases taken out of context and such...

mister FE's theorys arent annoying i like his theorys they actualy helped me

help how?

say what?

This is off topic, but anyone ever watched the ending CG video with the only sound being the song "Mad World" by Tears for Fears? It's like being on crack, ecstacy, and heroin while having sex at the same time, not that I would know...lol

And as far as my position on R=U so far, the game is a FANTASY! Even though I find it doubtful, I do like to think that it may be true because it adds to the story's development. So it is what you make of it. That's why I didn't like FFXI- Final Fantasy should be a single player experience to truly be understood.

P.S. Noj_R- Just read your previous responses. I get what you're saying...

Oh, and just as a side note, you become EXTREMELY DEPRESSED!...lol

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Haha, well, thank you for that, but it really is the only thing you can do if you realise you made a mistake. ;)

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You're very welcome!!! :grinpink: Keep up the good attitude!!!;)

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Originally Posted by Lychon

Oh, and just as a side note, you become EXTREMELY DEPRESSED!...lol

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Depressed?

Glad someone actually acknowledges my posts :D

Depressed from that freaking song...lol (per previous post)

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Originally Posted by Lychon

Depressed from that freaking song...lol (per previous post)

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Im really confused now. Im sorry what song?

( I like Eyes on Me ) :D

In my third to last post (not including this one), I was talking about the song "Mad World" by Tears for Fears. Check out the post, you'll see what I was talking about- just something random...

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Originally Posted by Lychon

In my third to last post (not including this one), I was talking about the song "Mad World" by Tears for Fears. Check out the post, you'll see what I was talking about- just something random...

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Oh ok. :D

Hay if u guys haven't noticed but in the ending (ive seen it more than 10 times) when it shows rinoa's face all mucked up, it also shows a flash of ultimecia possibly resembling her.

Have a look for yourself if u don't believe me.

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Originally Posted by audsley

Hay if u guys haven't noticed but in the ending (ive seen it more than 10 times) when it shows rinoa's face all mucked up, it also shows a flash of ultimecia possibly resembling her.

Have a look for yourself if u don't believe me.

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Especially when it had been discussed starting from page 2, post 60, 1st paragraph of the thread

I've played it through about 6 times and never heard of that theory.

Just reading through it... It's very interesting.

The I'll be here waiting thing is very strong evidence. Same with Fact 6

I think everyone should read this who has finished FF8.

I'll just wait for FFVIII-2 to find out the answer.

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I'll just wait for FFVIII-2 to find out the answer.

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I don't see it happening.... At least in the near future :P.

Made a Sig to match the subject ^^

wow, 2 weeks and then it's back.