Has Final Fantasy really gotten deeper since the 16-bit days?

Lately Ive been playing Final Fantasy IV Advance. and the more I play, the more in convinced that not much has changed in RPG's since those days except the graphics. FFIV still had a great story, deep characters, tragic backstories and mysteries for the main characters, a combat system that is fairly deep, plenty of equipment, yadda yadda yadda.

So I've been wondering, have the games gotten any deeper since those days of yore? prettier perhaps, a definite improvement on the presentation values, but as GAMES go, I am really hard pressed to find much difference. Stratergy RPG's have improved greatly, mostly thanks to Nippon Ichi (Disgaea, Makai Kingdom) but RPG's in general really havnt changed all that much as far as I can see. Its not so much a bad thing seeing as how sonic or mario games havnt changed much either.

What are you getting at? You start off talking about story but towards the end you're insinuating that that has some effect on gameplay.

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Lately Ive been playing Final Fantasy IV Advance. and the more I play, the more in convinced that not much has changed in RPG's since those days except the graphics. FFIV still had a great story, deep characters, tragic backstories and mysteries for the main characters, a combat system that is fairly deep, plenty of equipment, yadda yadda yadda.

So I've been wondering, have the games gotten any deeper since those days of yore? prettier perhaps, a definite improvement on the presentation values, but as GAMES go, I am really hard pressed to find much difference. Stratergy RPG's have improved greatly, mostly thanks to Nippon Ichi (Disgaea, Makai Kingdom) but RPG's in general really havnt changed all that much as far as I can see. Its not so much a bad thing seeing as how sonic or mario games havnt changed much either.

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It might be helpful if you go into a little more details to what you are expecting. We will do all our very best to meet your expectations.

storytelling and gameplay havnt changed much. I personally find the characters of FFIV to be just as detailed and in depth as FFX (or even FFVII). and I've already mentioned the gameplay. As for music, Nobuo was doing the sound until he left square. but overall the audio hasnt changed much either, since even back in the 16-bit days there were musical themes that had vocal tracks.

No, the gameplay hasn't gotten a whole lot deeper. The specifics have changed, but the generalities haven't. However, FFXI radically broke from the traditional FF control scheme, and Square recycled it for FFXII. I don't know that it's DEEPER, per se, but it does involve quite a bit of getting used to if you've only ever played I-X.

I would say its EASIER to notice deepness of characters in 2nd generation FFs due to the fact that you can see emotions much more clearly. Think of the dancing scene of FFVIII after the dollet mission. Would it have been as breathtaking and amazing/fun to watch if it were 16-bit? Likely not, but having said that... how many FFs have launched an opera? Yeah thats right, first generation only (VI)(FFIX almost did it, and even then, FFIX was a callback to first generation FFs too)


Rambled a bit there, I think my point is, characters were just as deep in FFVI as they are in FFVII+, its just you have to pay more attention to it to notice it

No, just more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Gilthanes

I would say its EASIER to notice deepness of characters in 2nd generation FFs due to the fact that you can see emotions much more clearly. Think of the dancing scene of FFVIII after the dollet mission. Would it have been as breathtaking and amazing/fun to watch if it were 16-bit? Likely not, but having said that... how many FFs have launched an opera? Yeah thats right, first generation only (VI)(FFIX almost did it, and even then, FFIX was a callback to first generation FFs too)


Rambled a bit there, I think my point is, characters were just as deep in FFVI as they are in FFVII+, its just you have to pay more attention to it to notice it

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I think what prompted this past was that in their reviews some publications stated that FFIV isnt as deep in terms of gameplay and story as modern RPG's, and while I will admit the combat system is a bit simple, the story is a great one with some wonderful characters. I really cant see all that much of a change in the 2nd generation save for graphics. And while graphics are the proverbial spoonfull of sugar that helps the medicine go down, they shouldnt be the main draw, story and gameplay should be, and FF has changed little if at all since the early days.

I think the first games are very good, maybe better than the newer ones, coz you need to use your imagination more. It's like saying 'the book was better than the movie'.

I believe the storys havent got any deeper since FFIV till FFX, if this is what you meant, No, games havent gotten deeper since the 16 Bit days.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

So I've been wondering, have the games gotten any deeper since those days of yore? prettier perhaps, a definite improvement on the presentation values, but as GAMES go, I am really hard pressed to find much difference. Stratergy RPG's have improved greatly, mostly thanks to Nippon Ichi (Disgaea, Makai Kingdom) but RPG's in general really havnt changed all that much as far as I can see. Its not so much a bad thing seeing as how sonic or mario games havnt changed much either.

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you forgot Phantom Brave, that !IS! the best Nippon Ichi game.

I don't consider the characters in FF4 to be all that deep. There's some underlying issues with the characters. But you never see them deal with it like in games today. You just have to "imagine" that it's going on. That's the big difference. Characters are more fleshed out and well defined these days. Cecil destroys Rydia's home, yet she never seems to care about that. Compare that to Wakka expressing his feelings and opinions every chance he gets. They both follow blindly. But only one really conveys true character.

Keep in mind the Advance version is the latest FF released and the story has undergone alot of changes to make it more like the newer FF's for example Kain now has a past and a father.

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Originally Posted by Sea Merchant

Keep in mind the Advance version is the latest FF released and the story has undergone alot of changes to make it more like the newer FF's for example Kain now has a past and a father.

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The story hasnt been changed at all. Its been more directly translated from the original FFIV hard type, but it hasnt changed. FFII was al altered, dumbed down version of FFIV because square thought the game was just too much for american audiances. I played the original version before, but its great to have it in handheld format.

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Originally Posted by Vyk

I don't consider the characters in FF4 to be all that deep. There's some underlying issues with the characters. But you never see them deal with it like in games today. You just have to "imagine" that it's going on. That's the big difference. Characters are more fleshed out and well defined these days. Cecil destroys Rydia's home, yet she never seems to care about that. Compare that to Wakka expressing his feelings and opinions every chance he gets. They both follow blindly. But only one really conveys true character.

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Rydia's issues do get addressed, like her initial reluctance to use the fire spell, her initial mistrust of cecil, in certain conversations. which do contrast in interestng ways to the lady she grows up to be. It may not be as extensive as cecil, kains or rosa's background, but I do feel she was explored in sufficent detail.

But I do agree that FFX had more character development then in past games, and present. I miss sakaguchi working on FF :(

Final Fantasy X's battle system is the BEST, period, finitio, end, ultimo!:choc2: :choc2: :choc2: :choc2:

Storywise FFVIII and FFX/X2 are the best.

I would say that 8 had the best system, 7 the best storyline, 10 the best sidequests. 1-6 are good in their way, but its just nostalga to me.

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Originally Posted by DeathKnight

Final Fantasy X's battle system is the BEST, period, finitio, end, ultimo!:choc2: :choc2: :choc2: :choc2:

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Best because you could switch characters on the fly? Thus making it just about as easy as FF7? Or best because it used the same option commands, atb/turn-based set-up as pretty much every other quality FF game?

Edit: Shot in the dark, but have you even played them all? ^_~

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Originally Posted by Vyk

Best because you could switch characters on the fly? Thus making it just about as easy as FF7? Or best because it used the same option commands, atb/turn-based set-up as pretty much every other quality FF game?

Edit: Shot in the dark, but have you even played them all? ^_~

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Yes I have played them all, well except V and VI, but-ah FFX had the best system, period, at least in my eyes. You could switch characters, turns were based in such a smooth way that it was actually fun to train for hours, UNLIKE in other FFs I've played. Weapons looked kick ass, you could customize your weapons, everyone had a specific job, such as Yuna being the white mage, Lulu the black mage, etc. unlike FF VIII and FF VII. I don't know everything just worked better and the summoning thing kicked ass. I liked how Yuna interacted with the summons.

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Originally Posted by DeathKnight

Final Fantasy X's battle system is the BEST, period, finitio, end, ultimo!:choc2: :choc2: :choc2: :choc2:

Storywise FFVIII and FFX/X2 are the best.

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STORYWISE? you must be joking. Those two were the WORST storywise. lets deal with these two one at a time.

FFVIII: first of all, the whole moody bishonen thing who blossoms into a decent individual has been done to death for over twenty years. Squall's development didnt even make sense, are we supposed to believe this guy, who's been in a social coma for more than a decade, has the skills to be a motivational speaker, military tactician, diplomatic representative, and kind to all creatures great and small? rinoa was the original slut, seifer, Edea, and Ultimecia are the Apotheosis of lame villains, none of the main characters save for squall and Rinoa (the least likeable ones at that), got any development outside of Disk 1. Ugh, that game was a storytelling train wreck.

FFX-2: Okay, this meeting of the script writers for FFX-2 will now come to order. In the last game Yuna went from sacrificial lamb to learning how to live, to loosing her greatest love and becoming a world leader from that tradgedy, and given the responsibility of teaching all of spira, who also lost their religion and way, a new way of living. So what are we gonna do with her now? Why were gonna strip all her clothes off, turn her into a pop star, remove nearly all the gravatis and pathos from the ending and put in ALOT of fey bishonen and slutty outfits. Not to mention squall is guest starring in drag, which remarkably makes him look a bit more masculine now that he's off the mascara. It'll be a hit I tell you.

Ugh, looking back Im seeing the decline of a once great franchise. Thanks a padload Nomura! :rolleyes2

X-2's story was lame, but it had a great combat system. As far as stories go, I don't think the plots have gotten much deeper since the 16 bit heyday. FFVI and CT both have plots that can easily stand on their own when compared to more recent games. In fact, you could argue that the Frog/Magus story had a lot more depth to it than most current hero/villain rivalries.

I agree about FFX-2. Incredibly stupid story and thought behind it. But the battle systems speed had me captivated. I was hoping FFXII would use a similar fast-paced battle system (where commands overlap and can form combos to do more dmg than normal)

I don't think plots are really the issue. I'd have to stand by character portrayal and development being above par in comparison. We may not like Squall, but at least we get to know him. Unlike Crono

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

STORYWISE? you must be joking. Those two were the WORST storywise. lets deal with these two one at a time.

FFVIII: first of all, the whole moody bishonen thing who blossoms into a decent individual has been done to death for over twenty years. Squall's development didnt even make sense, are we supposed to believe this guy, who's been in a social coma for more than a decade, has the skills to be a motivational speaker, military tactician, diplomatic representative, and kind to all creatures great and small? rinoa was the original slut, seifer, Edea, and Ultimecia are the Apotheosis of lame villains, none of the main characters save for squall and Rinoa (the least likeable ones at that), got any development outside of Disk 1. Ugh, that game was a storytelling train wreck.

FFX-2: Okay, this meeting of the script writers for FFX-2 will now come to order. In the last game Yuna went from sacrificial lamb to learning how to live, to loosing her greatest love and becoming a world leader from that tradgedy, and given the responsibility of teaching all of spira, who also lost their religion and way, a new way of living. So what are we gonna do with her now? Why were gonna strip all her clothes off, turn her into a pop star, remove nearly all the gravatis and pathos from the ending and put in ALOT of fey bishonen and slutty outfits. Not to mention squall is guest starring in drag, which remarkably makes him look a bit more masculine now that he's off the mascara. It'll be a hit I tell you.

Ugh, looking back Im seeing the decline of a once great franchise. Thanks a padload Nomura! :rolleyes2

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Stop clinging to the pathetic past and move on. They're not making the games for YOU. It's their game, it's their story, they did what they wanted to do, some people like it, others hate it, that's life.

-FF VII to me IS the worst FF in the PlayStation era, no interesting animation, lame soundtrack, OK materia system which gets annoying and unorganized, LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME ending, I want a COMPLETE ending, I don't want some lame FMV. Just goes to show you that people alot of times just cling to the past as if it was that great.

anyway, I'm tired of TITANIC-based endings which have been done to DEATH as you say. FF NEEDED a happy and loving ending, Yuna deserved to find Tidus, it all felt good.

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Originally Posted by DeathKnight

Stop clinging to the pathetic past and move on. They're not making the games for YOU. It's their game, it's their story, they did what they wanted to do, some people like it, others hate it, that's life.

-FF VII to me IS the worst FF in the PlayStation era, no interesting animation, lame soundtrack, OK materia system which gets annoying and unorganized, LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME ending, I want a COMPLETE ending, I don't want some lame FMV. Just goes to show you that people alot of times just cling to the past as if it was that great.

anyway, I'm tired of TITANIC-based endings which have been done to DEATH as you say. FF NEEDED a happy and loving ending, Yuna deserved to find Tidus, it all felt good.

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Yuna deserved to wallow in her misery without Titus.
There are many more things I would like to say to you but I would be banned for saying them I bid you good day.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

FFVIII: first of all, the whole moody bishonen thing who blossoms into a decent individual has been done to death for over twenty years. Squall's development didnt even make sense, are we supposed to believe this guy, who's been in a social coma for more than a decade, has the skills to be a motivational speaker, military tactician, diplomatic representative, and kind to all creatures great and small? rinoa was the original slut, seifer, Edea, and Ultimecia are the Apotheosis of lame villains, none of the main characters save for squall and Rinoa (the least likeable ones at that), got any development outside of Disk 1. Ugh, that game was a storytelling train wreck.

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Sometimes you have to suspend your disbelief a little. Squall is comparable to pretty much all of those teenage meche pilots that pop up in anime all the time that for some reason are better strategists and pilots than most people twice there age, without prior training. The only thing we need to know is that Squall has been trained to act the way he does, as unrealistic as that might be for someone his age. Rinoa, as you said, is quite the slut. However, this makes her one of the most realistic characters in the series. She is pretty much the epitome of all girls her age. While I agree that Ultimecia isn’t half the antagonist as many others in the series, it’s not as if she needed any more development than she was given. She’s pretty much Zemus in that respect. While it’s true that Squall and Rinoa received the majority of the character development within the game, I never really thought this cheapened the story. Square really wanted to turn this one into a love story, so it’s understandable that most of the other characters were pushed out of the spotlight. This is improved upon in FFIX/FFX significantly; FFVIII was Square’s test.

Ultimately though, I really didn’t care that few of the characters were particularly memorable in FFVIII. The intriguing theory of Time Compression/Travel presented in the game, as well as the epic action sequences easily carry this game by themselves. FFVIII is a sci-fi, romance, fantasy and war epic all combined into a neat little game. I wouldn’t call it a ‘storytelling train reck’ by any means.

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FFX-2: Okay, this meeting of the script writers for FFX-2 will now come to order. In the last game Yuna went from sacrificial lamb to learning how to live, to loosing her greatest love and becoming a world leader from that tradgedy, and given the responsibility of teaching all of spira, who also lost their religion and way, a new way of living. So what are we gonna do with her now? Why were gonna strip all her clothes off, turn her into a pop star, remove nearly all the gravatis and pathos from the ending and put in ALOT of fey bishonen and slutty outfits. Not to mention squall is guest starring in drag, which remarkably makes him look a bit more masculine now that he's off the mascara. It'll be a hit I tell you.

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I don’t see your point here, you didn’t actually comment on the story line at all.

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Originally Posted by Death Penalty

Yuna deserved to wallow in her misery without Titus.
There are many more things I would like to say to you but I would be banned for saying them I bid you good day.

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Do not bother with pointless comments such as this; it adds nothing to the discussion.

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I don’t see your point here

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I do.
He is saying that the writers story made no sense. Some times you have to read between the lines or just you know read the lines.:tongue:

How could you possibly get ’the story makes no sense’ from what he said? All he does is comment on how the characters look, and how Yuna can sing. Which part of that is so incredibly outrageous that it ruins the plot?

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Originally Posted by The Devourer Of Worlds

How could you possibly get ’the story makes no sense’ from what he said? All he does is comment on how the characters look, and how Yuna can sing. Which part of that is so incredibly outrageous that it ruins the plot?

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Hes saying there is no real plot.

Awesome! A potentially interesting discussion gets sabotaged by "which one is the best" newbies. Typical south of the Archives nonsense.

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Originally Posted by DeathKnight

They're not making the games for YOU.

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Interesting comment, considering it makes no sense whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Neel With A Hat

Awesome! A potentially interesting discussion gets sabotaged by "which one is the best" newbies. Typical south of the Archives nonsense.

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Did you truly think that this was going to end any other way? A discussion like this is almost designed to fail, as inevitably it will degenerate into new FF games vs old FF games.

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Originally Posted by The Devourer Of Worlds

Did you truly think that this was going to end any other way? A discussion like this is almost designed to fail, as inevitably it will degenerate into new FF games vs old FF games.

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I know! I hate these stuupid VS threads

There are things old games have that new games don't have and vise versa, if people felt great reading everything characters said (16 bit) with no FMVs and simple music...............then fine

Other people like REAL FMVs, creative music, more detail and character voices.

These kinds of threads only lead to meaningless bashing, I admit I tend to bash older games but it's because of dumb threads like these.:choc2:

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Originally Posted by DeathKnight

Stop clinging to the pathetic past and move on. They're not making the games for YOU. It's their game, it's their story, they did what they wanted to do, some people like it, others hate it, that's life.

-FF VII to me IS the worst FF in the PlayStation era, no interesting animation, lame soundtrack, OK materia system which gets annoying and unorganized, LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME ending, I want a COMPLETE ending, I don't want some lame FMV. Just goes to show you that people alot of times just cling to the past as if it was that great.

anyway, I'm tired of TITANIC-based endings which have been done to DEATH as you say. FF NEEDED a happy and loving ending, Yuna deserved to find Tidus, it all felt good.

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I'm not the biggest fan of FFVII, but I will say that overall it was a pretty good RPG. much more so than VIII (more on that in a sec).

As for FFX-2, and this is for you devourer of worlds as well, FFX didnt need a sequal. The ending was perfect, Yes Yuna was sad, but so was the whole world. Yuna lost the person she had love, and had come to give her life meaning, the world had lost its leaders and religion, that gave their lives meaning. Yuna was the best person to lead the world because she had already been through a similar journey, and now had to embark on another.

This is why FFX-2 just destroyed everything great about the ending of FFX. Matters such as tragedy, and meaning of life, just arent sorted out in a few days, weeks, or years, its a lifelong search. Yet Yuna abandons her duties, abandons the people who need her, for Tidus. This was a copout. If there had to be a sequal, something Im not opposed to outright, than how about a sequal detailing her quest to lead and rebuild spira, as she finds new meaning in her life? a more quieter, thoughtful RPG? Its not that she learned to sing, its just that her becoming a J-Pop star was the stupidest idea ever. She's a religious figure, and it just felt like some personal fanboyish fantasy to see her up there rather than a natural character arc. Its not that she shed her clothes, its that it was done in such a cheap way that there wasnt any point to it rather than draw in the drooling fanboys. Half the damn time she seemed like a side character from clueless rather than a religious icon. It really felt as though Nomura hated sakaguchi for upstaging him in FFX, and wanted to spit all over his characters rather than create a story that held water. And I'd sooner believe that than believe Nomura was actually TRYING to be serious.

FFX had a great story, and a very thought provoking ending that made you feel something, hope and tragedy mingling together. It had a message, and delivered it in a very subtle manner. FFX-2 just cheapened everything that was great about FFX's story.

and yes, X-2 did have a great gameplay system, but the really stupid story, just keeps hitting me over the head and keeps me from enjoying it.

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Originally Posted by The Devourer Of Worlds

Sometimes you have to suspend your disbelief a little. Squall is comparable to pretty much all of those teenage meche pilots that pop up in anime all the time that for some reason are better strategists and pilots than most people twice there age, without prior training. The only thing we need to know is that Squall has been trained to act the way he does, as unrealistic as that might be for someone his age. Rinoa, as you said, is quite the slut. However, this makes her one of the most realistic characters in the series. She is pretty much the epitome of all girls her age. While I agree that Ultimecia isn’t half the antagonist as many others in the series, it’s not as if she needed any more development than she was given. She’s pretty much Zemus in that respect. While it’s true that Squall and Rinoa received the majority of the character development within the game, I never really thought this cheapened the story. Square really wanted to turn this one into a love story, so it’s understandable that most of the other characters were pushed out of the spotlight. This is improved upon in FFIX/FFX significantly; FFVIII was Square’s test.

Ultimately though, I really didn’t care that few of the characters were particularly memorable in FFVIII. The intriguing theory of Time Compression/Travel presented in the game, as well as the epic action sequences easily carry this game by themselves. FFVIII is a sci-fi, romance, fantasy and war epic all combined into a neat little game. I wouldn’t call it a ‘storytelling train reck’ by any means.

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Perhaps I need to elaborate. In japan FFVIII's story would be called placed in the shojo (meaning for girls) genre. Sailor moon is a good example of shojo. The thing is, FFVIII ripped off every cliche imaginable. Not a bad thing in itself, as so do many shojo storylines. But FFVIII was very sloppy in its execution. In shojo, the moody, dark, and angsty bishonen ("pretty boy") always lightens up and has a tragic past and a good heart waiting to be set free. I mean ALWAYS. thing its its always during the softening process that the romance happens, the girl see's the more tender qualities buried beneath tradgedy and confusion. Florence Nightingale Syndrome kicks in, the world is endangered, the bishonen chooses to take on the role of hero, love blossoms, evil is conquered, they live happily ever after. Thing with squall is that everyone falls in love with him BEFORE he opens up. What sense does this make? sure he's good looking, but in shojo so is everyone. If this is the case why arent the gals falling for seifer, or Irvine, or Zell (sure the tattoo is an issue, but some girls like that)? It makes no sense for Squall to have that many admirers before the emotional blossoming process kicks in.

And yes, rinoa was a slut. not just that but she has poor taste in men, and I really cant see anything else in her that is likeable. The CGI is the most likeable thing about her (and squall for that matter).

As for the storyline, As squall goes through the blossoming stage, he just becomes more and more perfect. Alien race? he's a brilliant diplomat. The school is under attack, he's a tactician, motivational speaker, and dynamic leader. Girl asks him to dance, he ends up learning incredibly quickly. I mean seriously, suspension of disbelief is one thing, but this was flat out overcompensation on nomura's part. Babylon 5 creator Michael J Stracynski once stated that he doesnt believe in perfect characters. This is what makes him a good writer, he created characters that feel true to life. Characters we can see ourselves in, for better and worse. In FFVIII, its all about the bling baby. Nothing more. The more squall opens up, the more perfect he is, instead of having to learn to live and be something more which is what you would expect from someone who's been socially comatose for ten years.

This is what separates sakaguchi from nomura. In sakaguchi's tales, characters grow step by step. Choice by choice. nomura prefers characters that are often flawless. An emotional scar heals and the character is a god among men, where in sakaguchi's tale's its more of a continual wrestling with ones self, which I find is much more true to life and interesting for storytelling concepts.

But yah, Nomura's storytelling incompetence aside, I would still say that Final Fantasy really hasnt changed much, save that its prettier, and at times a bit longer.

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Originally Posted by Tsukasa

you forgot Phantom Brave, that !IS NOT! the best Nippon Ichi game.

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Your lack of faith in Disgaea disgusts me.*Nightslash*

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

I'm not the biggest fan of FFVII, but I will say that overall it was a pretty good RPG. much more so than VIII (more on that in a sec).

As for FFX-2, and this is for you devourer of worlds as well, FFX didnt need a sequal. The ending was perfect, Yes Yuna was sad, but so was the whole world. Yuna lost the person she had love, and had come to give her life meaning, the world had lost its leaders and religion, that gave their lives meaning. Yuna was the best person to lead the world because she had already been through a similar journey, and now had to embark on another.

This is why FFX-2 just destroyed everything great about the ending of FFX. Matters such as tragedy, and meaning of life, just arent sorted out in a few days, weeks, or years, its a lifelong search. Yet Yuna abandons her duties, abandons the people who need her, for Tidus. This was a copout. If there had to be a sequal, something Im not opposed to outright, than how about a sequal detailing her quest to lead and rebuild spira, as she finds new meaning in her life? a more quieter, thoughtful RPG? Its not that she learned to sing, its just that her becoming a J-Pop star was the stupidest idea ever. She's a religious figure, and it just felt like some personal fanboyish fantasy to see her up there rather than a natural character arc. Its not that she shed her clothes, its that it was done in such a cheap way that there wasnt any point to it rather than draw in the drooling fanboys. Half the damn time she seemed like a side character from clueless rather than a religious icon. It really felt as though Nomura hated sakaguchi for upstaging him in FFX, and wanted to spit all over his characters rather than create a story that held water. And I'd sooner believe that than believe Nomura was actually TRYING to be serious.

FFX had a great story, and a very thought provoking ending that made you feel something, hope and tragedy mingling together. It had a message, and delivered it in a very subtle manner. FFX-2 just cheapened everything that was great about FFX's story.

and yes, X-2 did have a great gameplay system, but the really stupid story, just keeps hitting me over the head and keeps me from enjoying it.



Perhaps I need to elaborate. In japan FFVIII's story would be called placed in the shojo (meaning for girls) genre. Sailor moon is a good example of shojo. The thing is, FFVIII ripped off every cliche imaginable. Not a bad thing in itself, as so do many shojo storylines. But FFVIII was very sloppy in its execution. In shojo, the moody, dark, and angsty bishonen ("pretty boy") always lightens up and has a tragic past and a good heart waiting to be set free. I mean ALWAYS. thing its its always during the softening process that the romance happens, the girl see's the more tender qualities buried beneath tradgedy and confusion. Florence Nightingale Syndrome kicks in, the world is endangered, the bishonen chooses to take on the role of hero, love blossoms, evil is conquered, they live happily ever after. Thing with squall is that everyone falls in love with him BEFORE he opens up. What sense does this make? sure he's good looking, but in shojo so is everyone. If this is the case why arent the gals falling for seifer, or Irvine, or Zell (sure the tattoo is an issue, but some girls like that)? It makes no sense for Squall to have that many admirers before the emotional blossoming process kicks in.

And yes, rinoa was a slut. not just that but she has poor taste in men, and I really cant see anything else in her that is likeable. The CGI is the most likeable thing about her (and squall for that matter).

As for the storyline, As squall goes through the blossoming stage, he just becomes more and more perfect. Alien race? he's a brilliant diplomat. The school is under attack, he's a tactician, motivational speaker, and dynamic leader. Girl asks him to dance, he ends up learning incredibly quickly. I mean seriously, suspension of disbelief is one thing, but this was flat out overcompensation on nomura's part. Babylon 5 creator Michael J Stracynski once stated that he doesnt believe in perfect characters. This is what makes him a good writer, he created characters that feel true to life. Characters we can see ourselves in, for better and worse. In FFVIII, its all about the bling baby. Nothing more. The more squall opens up, the more perfect he is, instead of having to learn to live and be something more which is what you would expect from someone who's been socially comatose for ten years.

This is what separates sakaguchi from nomura. In sakaguchi's tales, characters grow step by step. Choice by choice. nomura prefers characters that are often flawless. An emotional scar heals and the character is a god among men, where in sakaguchi's tale's its more of a continual wrestling with ones self, which I find is much more true to life and interesting for storytelling concepts.

But yah, Nomura's storytelling incompetence aside, I would still say that Final Fantasy really hasnt changed much, save that its prettier, and at times a bit longer.

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Quoted for truth.

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Originally Posted by Death Penalty

Quoted for truth.

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Nope, purposedly bias and misleading if you ask me.

I'm tired of TITANIC based endings, it's been done so many times in RPGs that it's already sickening

:twak: :fencing: :yuck: :nonono:

What...? Happy endings are done way more

Granted, I prefer a happy ending myself, as I'm a fan of closure. But that has nothing to do with the frequency in which this occurs.

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They're not making the games for YOU.

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Whatever you say no longer has any relevance to me.

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I'm tired of TITANIC based endings, it's been done so many times in RPGs that it's already sickening

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RPGS tend to do happy endings a lot more.

People keep quoting that. Am I the only one that understood it? He was saying they don't make games targeted at a specific person. i.e. "They don't make games for you (per se), they make games for everyone". Least common denominator stuff. The more people you try to make a game for, the suckier it is. Stick to awesome niches. But that's a topic for a different thread

But they do make games for me and everyone else

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Originally Posted by DeathKnight

Nope, purposedly bias and misleading if you ask me.

I'm tired of TITANIC based endings, it's been done so many times in RPGs that it's already sickening

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I personally dont care how a RPG or story ends, so long as its appropriate. The final hour or so of Titanic was the ONLY good thing about the movie. Tragic Or Happy, I dont care so long as it makes sense and the point of the story sticks with you.

"titanic" style endings, or Bitter/Sweet as they are more commonly called, are often used to pull on ye old heart strings. They allow for some tradgedy to occur, making you feel sad, but at the same time they allow for some sense of joy, or hope to set in as well. Bitter/Sweet endings lend a storyline a true to life feel, whereas "Mega Happy Endings" can come accross Hackneyed or contrived if the writers dont know what they are doing. at the end of FFIX Its hinted at the fact that Vivi has died, yet you see he managed to sire a great deal of progeny (way ta go Playa) and actually went into that good night satisfied and happy with the life he lead. Then you see everyone else is living happily, Steiner and Beatrix have gotten together, Zidaine returns from the dead, Freya and her boytoy are an item again, everyone is happily ever after despite the tradgedy, and FFIX ends with a round of applause (literally) from everyone in the audience. Wheras Nomura would have likely found an antidote or spell to keep vivi alive, Bitter Sweet endings, when used properly, just generate a deeper emotional resonnance.

You may not like em, but there are alot of people that do, or can appreciate them so long as the story makes sense. I got nothing against Mega happy endings, so long as its well written, but I like the Bitter/sweet Vibe as well. Whatever the writer thinks will make a better story is fine with me, so long as its interesting, and well told.

My experience with FF games is pretty simple.

I played FF2 for the SNES in 1992 or '93, can't recall exactly. But, you know, before FF3 came out for the SNES. I was in line to buy FF3 for the SNES. I bought FF7 before I bought a playstation. I just rented one every weekend until I saved up enough to buy one.

I was in line to buy FF8 for hours and hours...

Then I got it home and took it back the next day.

You see, storyline takes creativity. Writing a catchy storyline is tough. Developing catchy, addictive gameplay is a lot of work. But when Squaresoft made Final Fantasy VII, they realized something: there's no need to waste money developing story and gameplay when graphics can sell the game. You see, any idiot can make some cool looking graphics. Graphics are easy. Probably the easiest part of developing an RPG. So you make a game with good graphics, and sacrifice on the story and gameplay.

That's what Square has done, since FF7. They scrapped gameplay and story in favor of cheap graphics.

Britney's Dance Beat has excellent graphics. But I will never play it.

Graphics don't make a game. At least, they shouldn't. They should support the gameplay and story. But when Square realized they could sell games on name and eye-candy, they decided to save some money, and advertise on the graphical end.

Unfortunately, it seems to be working.

FF stories have gotten more shallow, over time. Play Final Fantasy VI. Seriously. The freaking world gets destroyed. In the middle of the game. The world gets beat up so bad that none of the continents stay in tact. That's heavy stuff. I never would have guessed to do something like that was coming. Usually that type of thing happens in the epilogue, not in the middle of the game, when you still have 10-20 hours of gameplay left (if you're shooting for mastery, which I usually do).

FFX's story is far too bizzare. They seemed to have run out of ideas, so they were like, "Um, what if..." and I won't say the rest, because I don't want to ruin more than I already did with FFVI.

They put a lot of effort into 7 because they hadn't yet discovered they could still sell games without effort. But as soon as 7 was what it was, they got the picture, and since, it's been all graphics and so forth.

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Originally Posted by feioncastor

You see, any idiot can make some cool looking graphics. Graphics are easy. Probably the easiest part of developing an RPG.

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Um, do you have any idea how much time goes into the graphics in video games? Probably almost as much time as the programming, if not more. It’s not something ‘any idiot’ can do.

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Originally Posted by The Devourer Of Worlds

Um, do you have any idea how much time goes into the graphics in video games? Probably almost as much time as the programming, if not more. It’s not something ‘any idiot’ can do.

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Yes it is. Any idiot with a degree in that field can do it. But creativity is a lot harder to come by. There's no way to "teach" someone how to create a beautiful story or an addictive gameplay system. But you can teach someone how to develop graphics using a computer program. Just about anyone can learn to use program for creating graphics.

And it doesn’t take creativity to create wonderful graphics? Keep in mind that someone has to design everything within the game. If that doesn’t take creativity I don’t know what does.

Any idiot with a degree has to have some artistic creativity to create good charachters. Also if anything ff7 had the greatest ff story ever. I mean if you play ff8 although its one my most hated games it wasnt bad enough to belong back at the store a day later.

Very well, I may have waited two days to bring it back.

And I know FF7 had an excellent story. But when FF7 came out, Square stopped trying to work on stories because it's easier to do graphics. FF7 was the last to have such a captivating story.

There is little creativity involved. Look at Seymour in FFX. He looks awfully lame. I didn't like his appearance at all. His role was well played, and he was a well developed character, but you can't see that and think it was remarkably creative. It's unique, but in a bad way.

All I'm saying is that graphics are supposed to support the gameplay. You shouldn't be able to sell a game on graphics. Look at Tetris. I first played Tetris in 1989, and I still play it a few times a week. It's not the graphics. It's the gameplay. Look at Final Fantasy for the NES. Awful graphics, by today's standards. They were bad and almost poorly designed, but the gameplay is what kept me playing the game.

Square now sells games on graphics. They have quit putting a whole lot of effort into story and gameplay, and focused more on graphics because as long as you know how to operate a computer graphics program, you can program graphics.

Sure, the sketches for characters are cool, like the hand-drawn stuff, and I appreciate that creativity. But the people who do the work behind the computer aren't creative geniuses. I've worked on a few indie games before, so I've seen a bit of it. I'm no master or professional, but I have an idea.

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Originally Posted by feioncastor

Very well, I may have waited two days to bring it back.

And I know FF7 had an excellent story. But when FF7 came out, Square stopped trying to work on stories because it's easier to do graphics. FF7 was the last to have such a captivating story.

There is little creativity involved. Look at Seymour in FFX. He looks awfully lame. I didn't like his appearance at all. His role was well played, and he was a well developed character, but you can't see that and think it was remarkably creative. It's unique, but in a bad way.

All I'm saying is that graphics are supposed to support the gameplay. You shouldn't be able to sell a game on graphics. Look at Tetris. I first played Tetris in 1989, and I still play it a few times a week. It's not the graphics. It's the gameplay. Look at Final Fantasy for the NES. Awful graphics, by today's standards. They were bad and almost poorly designed, but the gameplay is what kept me playing the game.

Square now sells games on graphics. They have quit putting a whole lot of effort into story and gameplay, and focused more on graphics because as long as you know how to operate a computer graphics program, you can program graphics.

Sure, the sketches for characters are cool, like the hand-drawn stuff, and I appreciate that creativity. But the people who do the work behind the computer aren't creative geniuses. I've worked on a few indie games before, so I've seen a bit of it. I'm no master or professional, but I have an idea.

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Oh I thought you were dissin 7. Your fine in my book now good job.

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Originally Posted by Shadow The Red XIII Thing

Oh I thought you were dissin 7. Your fine in my book now good job.

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Final Fantasy VIII is better than FF VII. Graphically-wise, BETTER summons, better story and FMVs, they made everything come to life with the FVMs unlike in FFVII, better more ROUNDED characters, and more interesting side quests and things you had to do. Also situations were more DRAMATIC and more interesting than FF VII. Better all around if you ask me.

FF VII's too vague, too lost out there, doesn't really GUIDE you, it's good but not really earth shattering.

Um, you realize that he didn't say FFVII was better than FFVIII right? And even if he did it would have been completely and utterly off topic...

EDIT: God damn it...

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Originally Posted by DeathKnight

Final Fantasy VIII is better than FF VII. Graphically-wise, BETTER summons, better story and FMVs, they made everything come to life with the FVMs unlike in FFVII, better more ROUNDED characters, and more interesting side quests and things you had to do. Also situations were more DRAMATIC and more interesting than FF VII. Better all around if you ask me.

FF VII's too vague, too lost out there, doesn't really GUIDE you, it's good but not really earth shattering.

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You didnt play that many ffs did you. FF7 had a better storyline, no rinoa, yuffie:love: ,and a better main charachter. Its so much more dramatic that the whole ff8 group is so retarted they dont even remember they were all orphans together, there villian was very pointless with almost no charachter at all, and FMVs were substandard when the game came out. Meanwhile FF7 had the most amazing graphics of its time, a villain wit a charachter, and the group wasnt retarted.

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Originally Posted by Shadow The Red XIII Thing

You didnt play that many ffs did you. FF7 had a better storyline, no rinoa, yuffie:love: ,and a better main charachter. Its so much more dramatic that the whole ff8 group is so retarted they dont even remember they were all orphans together, there villian was very pointless with almost no charachter at all, and FMVs were substandard when the game came out. Meanwhile FF7 had the most amazing graphics of its time, a villain wit a charachter, and the group wasnt retarted.

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Thats just down to personal taste. FFVIII is not a bad game as you are making it out to be, just you didn't like it. And FFVII is not that great a game, just you really liked it.

You can bat on about how FFVIII was crap with crappy characters and a crappy villain all you like, but they were created the way they were with intention to be that way. Ultimecia was designed to be a villain that took you by surprise and all the events in the game support her being there. Her not having a back story created a mystery behind her which Square obviously didn't reveal becauae it was unessessary and would have taken away her mystery. The fact that you "think" FFVIII is crap means nothing. You obviously didn't enjoy it very much but don't mistake something you don't like for being crap.

Oh and i love FFV and FFVI the most. FFVII is a great game, much over rated IMO but great nonetheless. Didn't like IV much and really really didn't like X. But there is nothing wrong with them, just didn't suit my tastes

I was just statin my opinion

Yeah i know dude, just i wanted stand up for a game you were clearly putting down. I'm not saying you HAVE to like it. But just realise that the reasons you didn't like FFVIII are the same reasons that people DID like it. :greenie:

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Yeah i know dude, just i wanted stand up for a game you were clearly putting down. I'm not saying you HAVE to like it. But just realise that the reasons you didn't like FFVIII are the same reasons that people DID like it.

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I know and all people are horrible idiots for liking FF8xd

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Originally Posted by Death Penalty

I know and all people are horrible idiots for liking FF8xd

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*gives you a dry look* hmmmmmmm

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Originally Posted by Shin Omega

Ultimecia was designed to be a villain that took you by surprise and all the events in the game support her being there. Her not having a back story created a mystery behind her which Square obviously didn't reveal becauae it was unessessary and would have taken away her mystery.

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No offence dude, but that's pretty weak. Nomura and kitase are just too incompetent to bother putting in compelling or in depth back backstories. I mean look at all the projects they developed solo, without sakaguchi around to hold their hand.

Kingdom hearts: started out strong, but the main villain and mysteries remain unsolved and shrouded even after the ending.

Final Fantasy VIII: Redundant and bland on all counts. Characters were unlikeable (save for Laguana, and Seifer's posse), gameplay was busted, story was foolish and ridiculously contrived ("Oh, my long lost sister has been in the garden for months and noone knew about it")

Final Fantasy X-2: Hey, some people have a fetish to see religious icons dressed all sexy and doing the pop idol thing, now that sakaguchi's gone lets work over Yuna like that. :mad:

Advent Children: The most pathetic storyline I've ever seen. I mean really people, these guys wern't even trying. The CGI as well was VERY inconsistent with constant uses of motion blur's too cover up the shoddy animation.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance: Thanks to GameFAQ's I discovered that at only halfway past the game, and moving pretty fast I found, I had uncovered all the really good jobs, skills, and weapons. THIS was the main reason playing the original FFT was so much fun. So why would I continue to play when I've discovered everything?

Oh, and by the way, sakaguchi directed and helped to write FFX, Nomura just did the character designs. Which is why Seymore and other characters have cool backstories, but look incredibly silly. Sakaguchi also was credited with assisting Kitase in writing the script for FFVII, while Nomura directed and did the character designs. Which explains why despite how over rated I consider FFVII, I still think it's a good RPG.

But yah, point is that Nomura and Kitase are punks when it comes to storytelling. In all the games I've seen them work on, they havn't been able to hold together a good storyline to save their lives. It's always been the programmers and graphic designers, as well as Uematsu (when they had sense enough to use him. No wonder he quit) on sound, that helped their titles LOOK and SOUND like quality products, and at times play like it, but for storylines... Im sorry they suck. I dont need a good backstory, Kefka has a backstory you could write on a ripped table napkin, but I consider him to be the penultimate FF villain for a reason, from beginning to end he's just a sick Mudder fudracker and he just keeps getting nuttier the more the game goes on. His story is well told, even with a shallow backstory. Ultimecia, Kadaj, Seifer, Ansem, who the hell are these guys. All save for seifer have the depth of a cardboard cutout, but less than a quarter of the charisma and compelling backstory.