Ultimecia and Squall's parents musings

Sorry if this has been brought up before! And don't read this if you haven't beat it, but I think the spoiler warning has officially expired.

Why does Ultimecia do all she does? Why is she compressing time and hating on everyone? Does she somehow remember seeing herself defeated by Squall because it's in Edea's memory, so she's trying to kill SeeD before they kill her, not knowing that's why they kill her in the first place? But nothing is ever mentioned of sorceress's memories being passed on from on to the other, nor would she have any reason to possess Edea in the first place without any knowledge of what's going on...Time travel stuff hurts my head haha! Maybe I should just accept she's evil because she's like that and let it be.

Also, are Laguna and Raine squall's parents? I base this only off they never really tell you much about his 'rents, he had to get that ring from someone and Laguna gives a ring to Raine in the end, and the fact Raine looks like Squall's female twin in CG style. Does she have a baby that gets taken to the orphanage when Ellone does? That would leave an awful lot unexplained though...But Laguna could have got her pregnant without ever knowing it and then left before she knew it herself I guess. Or maybe not, it's been a while since I played this sucker and I forget all the story details... So why I'm thinking of all this now is beyond me.

Oh no, I've become one of those fans that reads everything from nothing and makes up theories!
*Dark Vader NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*

Ultimecia is Ultimecia. No one else, and dont let any one tell you differently. Ultimecia is simply an evil witch hellbent on world domination. She doesnt have a motive, she is just insane. When you add insanity to the Ulti equation, everything makes sense then.

Also, Squall IS indeed the son of Raine and Laguna. There is tons of evidence supporting this in the game besides the fact that SquareEnix actually confirmed it themselves.

Anyway, hope that helped. :D

I think you should be a bit careful to simply write away Ultimecia as a purely insane villain with no motive. True, there is obviously a level of 'insanity' in her, but there's certainly a lot more BEHIND that insanity.

For an account of what is in my opinion the best theory on Ultimecia(not made up by myself, mind you), please check out the "Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ" found here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

The relevant section is "An Ultimecian Analysis - The Unjust Persecution".

For those too lazy to read it all, the brief summary is as follows:

The destructive events (ie. Galbadian War, near completion of Time Compression, Lunar Cry etc.) were certainly huige enough to be recorded as history. Ultimecia, too, would have been recorded. However, since Ultimecia was from the future, everyone would KNOW that it was inevtiable that she would some time be born. Ultimecia, having together with Adel, permanenly ruined the reputation of sorceresses, would have been anticipated and feared. People would root out sorceresses from birth, searching for Ultimecia, thinking naively that they could stop her from rising to power, and stop all the countless deaths she caused.

In doing so, Ultimecia would have been persecuted from birth, even without yet having done anything evil. She would thus have been set alone against the world, and would have become twisted, seeking revenge and retribution: Ultimecia is born. The rest is straightforward.

But really, read what I referred to. It's much more thorough.

EDIT: And all the proof that Laguna is Squalls father follows:

1) Laguna = Lagoon. Raine = Rain. Squall = Brief windstorm, usually with snow or rain.

All these names are connected, they are all to do with water.

2) Raine and Laguna had a child together. That child was sent to the orphanage

The children in the orphanage at that time were as we all know, Squall, Seifer, Ellone, Quistis, Zell, Irvine and Selphie. Ellone is the adoptive sister to that newborn child, and spends a significant part of her life trying to get Laguna back to Raine and this child. Coincidentally, who is the one person in the orphanage who Ellone is closely attached to? Squall.

Also notice how none of the other children are paid attention to at all when it comes to this plot question, and seeing as how it is a very relevant part of the game, you'd think Square didn't just decide to drop it completely.

3) In the Ragnarok, Laguna tellls Squall that "Ellone has told me everything" and "We'll talk when this is all over".

Since Ellone had just stopped her quest to get Laguna to see his newborn child, one would expect her to tell all about the child to Laguna, and it seems rather farfetched that she refused to give him the true identity. This would also have been basically the most important thing Ellone would tell Laguna, so it seems plausible that he is going to talk to Squall on the same issue.

4) Talk to Kiros and Ward in the Ragnarok, and Ward will say "Good thing you don't look like your father" in a joking manner, Kiros says "you look more like your mother". Kiros and Ward know the parents, and the father well enough to make fun of him jokingly. Who fits into this description then?

5) The tutorial tells us that Moombas recognize people by licking their blood.

In jail, a Moomba calls Squall "Laguna" many times. This means Squalls blood was so similar to Lagunas that it fooled the Moomba. That kind of scene isn't just put in there for randomness, nor to prove that Moombas are mentally unstable.

Did Ward know Raine? I though he was working as a janitor at that point.

Thanks a lot! Man I was sooo sketchy on details in the plot, and I totally missed all the obvious signs that Laguna is Squall's pops.

I like the theory on why Ultimecia is like she is. It just always sort of bothered me that she was evil just because she can be...Now I can sleep at night, victory! And for the record, I didn't mean to imply I thought Ultimecia WAS anyone else (this whole Rinoa is Ultimecia thing is craziness in a box), just trying to understand her better.

But that still leaves two unanswered questions to which I cannot find the answer: If everyone grew up in the orphanage together and had very similar childhoods, why did only Squall turn out to be a prickface? :chuckle: And number 2: Why doesn't Irvine get to do and say more beyond a basketball court scene and not being a good assassin. Where has he been? What has he been doing? Did someone adopt him too? I love Irvine Square, LOVE, give me something!

Ultimecia has no clear motivation. She is simply Ultimecia. In short, she's a badly developed character who doesn't even qualify as being two-dimensional, let alone three.

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Originally Posted by HowlingMonkey

Ultimecia has no clear motivation. She is simply Ultimecia. In short, she's a badly developed character who doesn't even qualify as being two-dimensional, let alone three.

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I don't think she was badly developed. I think she is the way they intended her to be. They didn't give her a huge back up story because it wasn't nessessary to story plot or squall and rinoa. It also gave her a huge mystery and made you fear her because you knew nothing about her. She speaks very little, but what she says is in the script to confirm that she is just an insane bitch hellbent on world domination.

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Originally Posted by HowlingMonkey

Ultimecia has no clear motivation. She is simply Ultimecia. In short, she's a badly developed character who doesn't even qualify as being two-dimensional, let alone three.

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Did you read the analysis on Ultimecia I referred to?

I do tend to like the idea that there's a reason behind Ultimecia's insanity--and I'm all for the theory that SeeD grew, over the years, and became overbearing and may have even been the cause for Ultimecia's snapping in the first place. It makes sense--the ideals and methods of organizations tend to drift, especially after the founders are centuries dead--but there is one problem with the way that link put it down, in my view.

I don't really think the world at large knew about Ultimecia. (Whether that was her real name or a name she took on as she started her quest or what). Sure, they knew that Galbadia, led by a Sorceress, started to press itself on the world at large, just like Adel and Esthar had done, but I don't think that they knew anything about Time Compression (except for a brief, weird feeling that governments dismissed as something else) or that Squall and company became at all famous for what they did. Garden knew--at least Balamb Garden--and a couple of others (including Odine and some high-ranking officials in the Esthar government), but I doubt that it ever became common knowledge. That's not all bad, of course--I bet Squall would be happy to have dodged the 'hero' bullet.

Of course, that doesn't actually hurt the theory; it's mostly a semantic difference, that Ultimecia wasn't hunted for being Ultimecia, but was watched like a hawk (and so possibly persecuted) for being a Sorceress. It's still an idea that fits with the world, and is definitely better than most out there.

I admit, though, I would like to think that she was intentionally made a mystery, to further drive home that she was from the future, long after they'd have had any conception of the world.

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Originally Posted by ForestOwl

Did Ward know Raine? I though he was working as a janitor at that point.

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I'm pretty sure he's just making a dig on Laguna. It's also a fair deduction that if a child doesnt look like one parent he/she probably looks like the other.

Besides, Kiros or Laguna could have mentioned to Ward that Squall looks like Raine.

Oh, and much love to Sir Bahamut for massive awesomeness.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Did you read the analysis on Ultimecia I referred to?

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I did read it, ALL of it. And it doenst make much sense. The whole analysis is based on assumptions and not real game facts. Edea has been a sorceress for at least 10 years ( we know this cause Squall was about 7 when Ulti have up her powers to Edea ), and nobody rooted Edea out.

Edea ( possessed by Ulti ) was praised by Glabadia and even had a parade for her. Hardly suited for someone who is hated. So why are the people throwing a parade for someone they know is a sorceress? Because Sorceresses are not hated, and because that theory is purely assumption.

So, by examining this theory with ingame occurences and facts, we can conclude that sorceresses were not hated, and that Ulti's intentions are soley insanity at work.

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Originally Posted by shinangel2292

I don't think she was badly developed. I think she is the way they intended her to be. They didn't give her a huge back up story because it wasn't nessessary to story plot or squall and rinoa. It also gave her a huge mystery and made you fear her because you knew nothing about her. She speaks very little, but what she says is in the script to confirm that she is just an insane bitch hellbent on world domination.

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I agree with you on this, she was never meant to be a fully developed character. I believe Square did this is to prevent the focus of the game from being pointed in the wrong " direction ". The story is a love story, if they developed Ulti too much it would change the focus of the game. This statement is entirely in my opinion of course. :)

I know why. I'd get banned for it though :cool:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Did you read the analysis on Ultimecia I referred to?

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I glanced over it, and found it to be quite lacking. The point is I shouldn't have to. Character should be inherently obvious just by playing the game, not require much theorising and leaps of assumption to infer.

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Originally Posted by Noj_R

I did read it, ALL of it. And it doenst make much sense. The whole analysis is based on assumptions and not real game facts. Edea has been a sorceress for at least 10 years ( we know this cause Squall was about 7 when Ulti have up her powers to Edea ), and nobody rooted Edea out.

Edea ( possessed by Ulti ) was praised by Glabadia and even had a parade for her. Hardly suited for someone who is hated. So why are the people throwing a parade for someone they know is a sorceress? Because Sorceresses are not hated, and because that theory is purely assumption.

So, by examining this theory with ingame occurences and facts, we can conclude that sorceresses were not hated, and that Ulti's intentions are soley insanity at work.

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Edea: ...Lowlifes. ...Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my
ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned
for generations. Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless
sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered
countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands
before your very eyes to become your new ruler. HAHAHAHAHA.

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So yeah, I think it's safe to say there was a slight bit of tension between normal humans and sorceresses in the past. Either that, or Ultimecia is referring to herself in her own time. If that was the case, this actually supplements Sir Bahamut’s assertion that she is the product of persecution even further…

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Edea ( possessed by Ulti ) was praised by Glabadia and even had a parade for her. Hardly suited for someone who is hated. So why are the people throwing a parade for someone they know is a sorceress? Because Sorceresses are not hated, and because that theory is purely assumption.

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I'm rather surprised that despite your claims of having read all of it, you still managed to miss all the vital bits, like the quote which "Devourer of Worlds" just posted. Perhaps you should read it once again, properly this time?

Firstly, Edeas glorification by Galbadia was because they thought she'd lead them to world domination (which was in fact what she was in the process of doing, but certainly not for the sake of the Galbadian people). It's a phenomenon similar to what you'll see on recordings of Hitler's speeches. Virtually all Germans will today see Hitler as being evil and insane, yet so many of them were drawn in under his plans for dominion in Europe. Same thing here. But after it's all over, after the truth about Ultimecia comes out, and after the spell has been broken, do you not think that they would turn against sorceresses? Furthermore, it is clear the all of Esthar obviously despise sorceress after Adel, and once Galbadia have experienced the same thing with Edea, do you not think they will join Esthar in fearing and hating sorceresses?

Secondly, you completely missed the fact that the analysis is based on what would hypothetically speaking happen AFTER the game has ended. You cannot use Edeas glorification as an argument that people will love sorceresses in the future! No, that's absurd. Adel has already distanced Esthar from sorceresses, and Ultimecias near destruction of all of time and space will surely distance Galbadia in the same fashion.

The speach Ultimecia makes, and which was just quoted, confirms this. She literally says that they have condemned her for generations, and clearly states that the public opinion of the sorceress was as a ruthless tyrant, slaughtering countless men! The tutorial further states that many sorceresses go into hiding, simply because they are sorceresses! Do you think the situation will improve after Ultimecia?

But really, do you honestly think that after first Adel, and now Ultimecia, that sorceresses will be embraced by the people and loved? Something tells me that she didn't exactly do much to help improve peoples picture of a sorceress as a loving, caring person..

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So, by examining this theory with ingame occurences and facts, we can conclude that sorceresses were not hated, and that Ulti's intentions are soley insanity at work.

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You offered ONE counter-example (hardly worthy of being labelled "occurences and facts", least of all in the plural!), and that wasn't even a valid argument to begin with, so your conclusion is completely baseless. I would advise you to read though the analysis again, without skimming this time =P

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I glanced over it, and found it to be quite lacking. The point is I shouldn't have to. Character should be inherently obvious just by playing the game, not require much theorising and leaps of assumption to infer.

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It's nice of you to point out that it's quite lacking without actually giving a single example, after only having 'glanced over it'. Do you always give such thorough reasoning behind your sweeping statements? Anyway, so you think Ultimecia should have spilled her heart out to us in some heart-wrenching scene instead, then? Ultimecia is at least a realistic enough villain to not stereotypically spill out her master plan and tormented life before attacking the hero :rolleyes2

Further, unless you actually care to back up your previous statement of flaws in the theory, there ISN'T a lot of theorising and 'leaps of assumption' necessary to substantiate the theory. The only assumption is that Ultimecias actions will be recorded in history. The rest is pure logic, based on the history of humanity.

Of course, if you think that any character who is explained only indirectly is instantly void of character, and that Ultimecia would literally have to spell it out to us for her to have any value, then I think you're missing out on a whole lot. It's true as has been said, Square didn't want to focus on Ultimecia, but that does NOT mean they decided to just forget about her and slap the insanity mark on her forehead and call her a villain. They simply decided to give us her story indirectly, so that we would actually have to look at what she's saying (her speach at Galbadia being a key point, other key point calling Squall "the legendary SeeD destined to face her").

By the way, if you intend to actually come with any arguments next post, please do more than 'glance over it', or I won't even bother responding.

omg...:rolleyes2

The thing is...The whole theory faq you referred me to was completely based on assumptions and a host of variables having to be satisfied before the theory can be true.

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Originally Posted by HowlingMonkey

I glanced over it, and found it to be quite lacking. The point is I shouldn't have to. Character should be inherently obvious just by playing the game, not require much theorising and leaps of assumption to infer.

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HowlingMonkey nailed it. No character's actions or motives should have to be theorized and crap to be explained.

The faq was full of assumptions and I DID read it all, but that doesnt mean I have to believe it all either. The whole basis of this " sorceresses were persecuted " theory depends on one line that Edea ( Ulti ) gives at the parade. If there is more evidence I would like to see it as it is a valid argument. But you also have to remember that this is used to prove the R=U theory, which has been proven false. That makes it hard for me to agree.

But no character should have to be theorized, assumed, etc. to be explained.

What more evidence do you need than a quote that directly states that Sorceresses were persecuted? I mean come on: 'Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations.'? It's pretty damn clear.

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Originally Posted by The Devourer Of Worlds

What more evidence do you need than a quote that directly states that Sorceresses were persecuted? I mean come on: 'Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations.'? It's pretty damn clear.

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SEED has condemned her, because they are destined to fight her. And if thats the case, then why isnt Edea persecuted? The president of Galbadia wasnt persecuting Edea, he was making deals with her. It makes no sense.

They speak of Sorceresses being persecuted throughout a long period of time. Notice it says 'generations'. SeeD hasnt been around for generations, as it was started by Cid and Edea. It's a relatively new thing. The game also speaks of Sorceresses living far removed from the population because of people fearing their powers.

As for Galbadia, they wanted power. I cant remember if anything particularily shady was going on, but Edea's rise to power was quite similar to Sorceress Adel's rise to power in Esthar.

To put it simply, it was worth his while to put aside the prejudice of the past. Ultemecia even comments on how discussing she felt it was for him to do so. And let’s face it; most people are idiots who believe anything politicians tell them. So it’s not really that outrageous to think that they would align with Edea, despite the fact that in general, her kind are feared.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

It's nice of you to point out that it's quite lacking without actually giving a single example, after only having 'glanced over it'. Do you always give such thorough reasoning behind your sweeping statements? Anyway, so you think Ultimecia should have spilled her heart out to us in some heart-wrenching scene instead, then? Ultimecia is at least a realistic enough villain to not stereotypically spill out her master plan and tormented life before attacking the hero :rolleyes2

Further, unless you actually care to back up your previous statement of flaws in the theory, there ISN'T a lot of theorising and 'leaps of assumption' necessary to substantiate the theory. The only assumption is that Ultimecias actions will be recorded in history. The rest is pure logic, based on the history of humanity.

Of course, if you think that any character who is explained only indirectly is instantly void of character, and that Ultimecia would literally have to spell it out to us for her to have any value, then I think you're missing out on a whole lot. It's true as has been said, Square didn't want to focus on Ultimecia, but that does NOT mean they decided to just forget about her and slap the insanity mark on her forehead and call her a villain. They simply decided to give us her story indirectly, so that we would actually have to look at what she's saying (her speach at Galbadia being a key point, other key point calling Squall "the legendary SeeD destined to face her").

By the way, if you intend to actually come with any arguments next post, please do more than 'glance over it', or I won't even bother responding.

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It's a simple question of good storytelling. In good storytelling, the characters are clearly purveyed to the reader/viewer/player. In FF8, this is how works for each of the main people's character (or lack of character). It even works for Fujin and Raijin. They are all people who are easy to understand just by watching them in the game. Ultimecia is not. She doesn't need to do a Bond villain, but through some medium her motivations, desires and flaws should be displayed. That's what seperates good, real characters from others, what many other FF villains are and that's what Ultimecia is not.

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The thing is...The whole theory faq you referred me to was completely based on assumptions and a host of variables having to be satisfied before the theory can be true.

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Excuse me, but your persistance to state that it's full of assumptions and variables without actually giving a single example is a bit silly, really. I'm perfectly open to the fact that it's full of holes, but so far, you haven't actually been able to come up with a single example, and until you do, I maintain that it is NOT based on a host of assumptions and variables.

Because it isn't. The ONLY basic assumption is made is that Ultimecia and her actions would be written down in history. or at the very least, that it would be recorded that "A sorceress nearly destroyed the world etc.". From there, we can use quotes and facts from the game to infer that it is highly probable that Ultimecia would have been persecuted as soon as she became a sorceress, even without having done anything.

So excuse me, but you're going to have to do better than simply state that "it's completely based on assumptions and variables" before dismissing it.

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HowlingMonkey nailed it. No character's actions or motives should have to be theorized and crap to be explained.

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This is a silly stance to take, in my humble opinion. Why is it really necessary that Ultimecias background should have to be spoonfed to us? Her motives are made quite clear (revenge herself on SeeD and compress time to become God), and if her background can be directly inferred from analysing what she says (your insistance that we shouldn't have to analyse anything to see her character is especially odd, as this theory is based quite fully on what Ultimecia says herself..). Isn't that enough? I really don't see why everything has to be spoonfed to be accepted...

I'm not saying is the best developed character ever or anything, but clearly there is more to her than "pure insanity" as you would have it.

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The faq was full of assumptions and I DID read it all, but that doesnt mean I have to believe it all either. The whole basis of this " sorceresses were persecuted " theory depends on one line that Edea ( Ulti ) gives at the parade. If there is more evidence I would like to see it as it is a valid argument. But you also have to remember that this is used to prove the R=U theory, which has been proven false. That makes it hard for me to agree.

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That "whole basis" as you put it, clearly states that sorceress have been condemned for generations (AFTER Squall's time mind you, as SeeD was less than one generation old at that time, clearly showing that Ultimecia is talking about the time between the game and her own era), so as someone else put it, what more do you need? Is not a direct quote from the game saying that "sorceresses have been condemned from the games end to Ultimecias era" enough? What more do you need? Tutorial information with excerpts from history books from the future?:rolleyes2

Now, again you ask why Edea was hailed, demonstrating how you clearly missed the point of my last post (maybe my fault), but as I explained above, there is irrefutable evidence that Ultimecia is speaking of the time after the game and until her own time, which renders your Edea argument quite invalid. I also refuted it further in my previous post, so see there for other reason why this argument falls short.

Also, that quote having been used in some way to back up the R=U theory has NOTHING to do with this theory, so I really can't understand why that should stand as a point against this theory.

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It's a simple question of good storytelling. In good storytelling, the characters are clearly purveyed to the reader/viewer/player. In FF8, this is how works for each of the main people's character (or lack of character). It even works for Fujin and Raijin. They are all people who are easy to understand just by watching them in the game. Ultimecia is not. She doesn't need to do a Bond villain, but through some medium her motivations, desires and flaws should be displayed. That's what seperates good, real characters from others, what many other FF villains are and that's what Ultimecia is not.

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Quite contrary, I think Ultimecia is one of the more realistic FF villains so far. The game doesn't focus on her though, as stated, so we aren't given the opportunity to see Ultimecia in a regular situation, except through Edea possessed, which as the theory states, can be used to add considerable background to her life. The rest of the time we see her is when we're going to fight her, since she's smart enough (contrary to what an 'insane' villain might do) to use others instead of putting herself in the frontlines.

Granted, as I said before, I don't claim that she is the most developed character ever; she simply isn't exposed enough for that to be the case. However, this theory adds a whole lot of background to her, making her a far better villain. And really, since nothing really indicates that she's merely acting out of pure insanity, and this theory can quite clearly explain all her somewhat odd statements, it is clearly more preferable. It seems to me that you people don't WANT Ultimecia to be more than simply insane!

As much as hate to stick my neck in here against Sir Bahamut, I would like to point out something:
As awesome and well thought out as your theory may be, it is still a theory, it is not game-supported fact. Her motives are not made clear. There are plenty of reasons why someone in her position would act the way she does. Certainly, the evidence you present is valid, but the conclusions you draw from it cannot be proven. They would explain why she is acting the way she is, but that does not mean that they are correct. True, no one here has pointed out holes in your theory (and they are incorrect for saying that your theory doesn't hold together without giving any evidence to support such a claim), but you haven't explained why their theory doesn't work either. Ulti very easily could be just an insane villain, and no evidence you have given disproves that theory. Either of the theories can be correct. If you want to settle the argument, you will have to do more than support your own theory, you will have to prove why theirs is flawed.

Just want to make one thing clear, which obviously most people missed in the beginning: this is not MY theory! I didn't come up with it. It was a Gamefaqs user called "TheOnionKnight" who did. I merely helped mold the understanding of it through debate, that's all.

Anyway, it's true, as you say, that it's only a theory. But why should one favour this theory over "Ultimecia is insane"? Firstly, the advocates of "pure insanity" offer no reason whatsoever as to why Ultimecia should be insane, as if she were simply born that way, or what she one day broke down for no apparent reason and decided she wanted to compress all of time and space. The theory I'm advocating however, gives a quite probable and reasonable backdrop to her turning evil/somewhat insane. Why did Ultimecia go evil/insane? Because she was unjustly persecuted. The people who say "she was simply insane. Period" can offer no such answer. If you ask them why she is insane, they'd just say "Because".

Secondly, Ultimecia is clearly not "purely insane end of discussion". There is definitely a level of insanity (the kind present in anyone hell bent on becoming God and carrying out vengeance on all enemies) in here, but despite this, she is sane enough and clever enough to come up with such complex plans as Adels release and a number of over things. She is 'evil', hungry for revenge against SeeD and those who persecuted her, and yes, a touch insane, but you cannot by any means explain away all her actions with "pure insanity"!

Thirdly, although you might find this a bit redundant, there is the fact that OnionKnight's theory is far more elegant than the "pure insanity" theory. It perfectly accounts for all Ultimecias statements about being condemned for generations, her recognition of Squall as the one to kill her, and her ruthless desire to want to compress time, all in a theory elegant enough to explain all this AND add a compelling background to Ultimecia as a victim of her own fate. The "pure insanity" theory is far weaker, in that it is stuck with simply stating that all her actions are explained away by her insanity. :rolleyes2 I guess it depends on how clever you really think Square are. What is more likely, this theory, or pure insanity?

But really, Skyblade, I don't see how I am supposed to be able to specifically argue against the finer points of their theory, when all their theory contains is "Everything has the explanation that Ultimecia is insane (reason for insanity is unknown)"! :rolleyes2

Hay! I have a theory too!!! There was this thing I read somewhere (I can't remember) but what if the reason behind her "insanity" was because she had lost someone dear to her? Like, her knight? (Edea's knight was Seifer, and Rinoa's was Squall... keep this all in mind)

What if she was a "good", "sane" sorceress, trying to free herself and perhaps other fellow sorceresses from prosercution by SeeDs, and was aided by a knight, who fought valiently and died trying to save her?

This might've broken her heart so horifficly that she figured "This world is too evil to be left free. Too chaotic. The events of the past must be re-written. It all needs to be controlled..." and decided upon herself that she was going to do just that.

Maybe controlling time would bring back her knight, as that is a BIG part of her plan for domination. And stop herself from dying in the future?

Anyway I reckon she and her knight were fighting for freedom, he died, she cried, she got filled with anger, hatred and emptyness, she changed her plans from 'freedom' to 'control' including time and space, figuring it would bring back her knight, and making the world a better place for them, tried that and died.

Really, all she was doing was trying to make things right.

It's crap, I know. I'm not good at explaning things, let alone my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

But really, Skyblade, I don't see how I am supposed to be able to specifically argue against the finer points of their theory, when all their theory contains is "Everything has the explanation that Ultimecia is insane (reason for insanity is unknown)"! :rolleyes2

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If you can't find any evidence that nullifies their theory, then it would seem that their theory is perfectly plausible. So don't be quite so vicious when you berate those who disagree with you. You can't complain that they are dismissing your theory without evidence if you do the same to them.

You missed my point. I can't give any evidence against their theory because they don't actually HAVE anything that I can work with!

All they say is "Ultimecias motives and actions are due to insanity". That's it. They don't give ANY arguments to back this up, any direct quotes, or anything else that might be called substance to give some weight to this theory, other than perhaps stating that there seems to be no real explanation other than that.

So what does that leave me with? I can't show how they use flawed reasoning, because they don't HAVE any reasoning. I can't come with counter-evidence, because everyone knows there simply ISN'T any evidence as to what happened to Ultimecia, there's only speculation. I can't discuss the plausibility of the theory because they don't give me anything to work with!

If you think that qualifies as a 'valid theory' which must be acceptable, I disagree utterly. One cannot simply come up with a theory without giving any firm reasoning behind it. I could just as well claim that Irvine and Zell(yes, Zell) get married after the game, and how would you be able to say anything against it? You can't 'disprove' it, as it were. You cannot refute the reasoning, because I'm not giving any reasoning. you could tentatively discuss the plausibility, but since the theory is set to after the game ends, that too isn't all that fruitful. Should we then accept this as a valid theory?

A theory can only be acceptable if it is presented after a string of reasoning backed up by quotes/facts from the game. The statement that "Ultimecias actions are explained by her insanity" does neither. Onion's theory uses all Ultimecias quotes, and other ingame facts to predict a plausible scenario which would lead us to a deranged/evil/insane Ultimecia hellbent on revenge and becoming God. It not only says "What", it says "Why". Simply stating that Ultimecia is insane says only "What", not "Why". How can the two theories then even be comparable?

NO!!! I refuse to do this to my brain!!!

Upon reviewing my previous post, I think I might have made things a bit more complicated than necessary.

The point I'm trying to make is that the statement that "Ultimecias actions are explained through insanity" is not an acceptable theory because it doesn't prove any reasoning. Onions theory arrives at more or less the same conclusion, but provides reasoning. Hence, Onions theory is superior.

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

If you can't find any evidence that nullifies their theory, then it would seem that their theory is perfectly plausible. So don't be quite so vicious when you berate those who disagree with you. You can't complain that they are dismissing your theory without evidence if you do the same to them.

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Actually, the burden of proof is on me because I am promoting the theory. But my theory doesnt really have proof, I only believe it because the evidence for the SP ( sorceress persecution ) theory doesnt seem plausible.

I will admit that it does have some evidence vs my theory having none, but I believe when Edea ( Ulti ) says this:

Quote:

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...Lowlifes. ...Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my
ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned
for generations..

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SEED has condemned Ulti. After all, they have been training for the final confrontation with Ulti. Cant become more condemning on a person than training hundreds of warriors to fight her. I believe Ulti is referring to the "prophecy" ( I use that word loosely ) that SEED has taught their students. The coming of an evil sorceress that SEED is destined to fight.

Quote:

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...Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless
sorceress from your fantasies?..

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She refers to sorceress: single NOT plural. I dont believe all sorceresses were feared. There are feared ones ( Adel ) and respected ones ( Edea ). What makes you think all sorceresses were feared and hated? She refers to only one sorceress ( herself ) as evil.

Quote:

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... The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered
countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands
before your very eyes to become your new ruler. HAHAHAHAHA.

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SEED knows that the coming sorceress is going to kill, that is common knowledge. She wonders know why they hold her in high esteem. The thing is that no one in Glabadia knew she was "The" sorceress destined to fight SEED.

This statment by Edea can actually be used on both sides of the arguement. But she only refers to one sorceress, so I am led to believe mt theory is right. No one has to believe me...

I am interested in any more evidence you have Sir Bahamut, as you do have a valid arguement and you do present plausible evidence for your case. Unlike a certain theory maker we both know...:D

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Originally Posted by Noj_R

SEED has condemned Ulti. After all, they have been training for the final confrontation with Ulti. Cant become more condemning on a person than training hundreds of warriors to fight her. I believe Ulti is referring to the "prophecy" ( I use that word loosely ) that SEED has taught their students. The coming of an evil sorceress that SEED is destined to fight.

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Except she wasn’t directing these comments at seeD; she was directing them at Galbadian civilians. At this point, she was unaware that there were any seeD in the audience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noj_R

She refers to sorceress: single NOT plural. I dont believe all sorceresses were feared. There are feared ones ( Adel ) and respected ones ( Edea ). What makes you think all sorceresses were feared and hated? She refers to only one sorceress ( herself ) as evil.

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Quote from Galbadia Garden, right before the first appearance of Irvine.

Quote:

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Martine:… In order to stress the importance of
this mission, I must first brief you on the current situation. At ease.
You all know about the sorceress being appointed as the peace
ambassador for the Galbadian government. However, this ambassador thing
is just a cover up. There will be no peace talks, only threats. The
sorceress creates fear among people. Therefore, peace talks are
impossible. Galbadia is planning to use this fear to negotiate
favorable conditions for itself.

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This heavily implies that sorceresses are generally feared by the public, and Galbadia was planning to take advantage of this in order further their quest for world domination. In addition to this, the following is said by Raijin after his defeat in Balamb:

Quote:

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Raijin: Seifer has a lot of followers, but we're his only friends...
We're a posse, ya know...? The Galbadian soldiers are only listening to
Seifer 'cause they fear the sorceress. Without us, Seifer would have a
posse, ya know...?

---

So really, people aren’t following Edea out of ‘respect’ at all. They are following her purely because she is a figure of intimidation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noj_R

SEED knows that the coming sorceress is going to kill, that is common knowledge. She wonders know why they hold her in high esteem. The thing is that no one in Glabadia knew she was "The" sorceress destined to fight SEED.

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I don’t think anyone (besides Cid and Edea herself) knew the true nature of seeD at this point in time. As far as the rest of the world knew, seeD was just an incredibly powerful and influential mercenary force.

In all of those quotes, Edea ( Ulti ) is still referred to as the sorceress, and that is singular not plural. You cannot make a statement like "ALL sorceresses cause fear in the masses" because only ONE is mentioned. Its kinda like sayin, "since Norg is intimidaing and Norg is a shumi. All shumis are intimidating".

Unless evidence is brought forth showing that sorceresses were feared, and not just one by herself ( i.e. Ulti and Adel ), then we must assume the SP theory is false.

The Sorceress has a lot of power that the average person just can't understand; there are examples of evil Sorceresses in history (they tend to overshadow the good), and it just makes sense that people would initially be wary of someone with the power to rewrite the fabric of reality. Sure, the world doesn't universally quake in fear at the name of a Sorceress, but there's the fact that Galbadia knew that appointing a Sorceress as an ambassador would make the other countries cave due to fear.

Add to this that Ultimecia comes from a future in which SeeD has existed for some time, and may have even grown. It's not unreasonable to think that the future SeeDs, if not most of the world (which probably doesn't care until it matters to them) might fear or be wary of Sorceresses. SeeD in particular could become overzealous, and there you go.

Ultimecia is pre-emptively targeted as a Sorceress thanks to a Garden whose ideals have drifted from Cid and Edea's dream. It works.

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Originally Posted by Noj_R

In all of those quotes, Edea ( Ulti ) is still referred to as the sorceress, and that is singular not plural. You cannot make a statement like "ALL sorceresses cause fear in the masses" because only ONE is mentioned. Its kinda like sayin, "since Norg is intimidaing and Norg is a shumi. All shumis are intimidating".

Unless evidence is brought forth showing that sorceresses were feared, and not just one by herself ( i.e. Ulti and Adel ), then we must assume the SP theory is false.

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The thing is, Galbadia Garden was able to anticipate that the masses would fear the Edea, even though at this point in time she was yet to commit any acts of terror. We know this because:

1. Edea was previous a good natured person before being taken over by Ultimecia.
2. Something President Deling says during Edea’s inalguration speech:

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Edea: A new era has just begun.

President Deling: E-Edea... Are you alright...? Ede...!

Edea: (using her claws to stab and burn the president) This is reality.
No one can help you. Sit back and enjoy the show.

---

As can be seen, Deling was surprised by Edea’s sudden outburst, implying that at this moment in time, Ultimecia had not yet presented her true nature. So the only possible reason that Deling would automatically assume that people would be intimidated by Edea would be if people generally feared sorceresses. Either this is due to a predgidous that people have always had, or was cause by the atrocities committed by Sorceress Adel. Thus, fear of sorceresses spans back 17 years at the very least.

Of course, whether sorceresses were feared in the past has little relevence as to whether they will be persecuted in the future. As has been said several times now, the line ‘Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations’ is more or less irrefutable proof that people knew about Ultimecia's rise before she was born. So the only real question is whether or not people waited for Ultmecia to gain power before they did anything about her. The use of the word 'condemned implies no, no they did not.

Devourer of Worlds and Qurange have both argued very well, and I don't have much to add besides what they said.

Firstly, despite the singular form being used (ie. sorceress, not sorceresses), it seems highly likely that people feared sorceresses in general, don't you agree? People feared Adel, and people feared Edea. The legend of Hyne even presents Hyne as a ruthless baby-killing sorceresses, and if their legends of sorceresses have that kind of a picture, I reckon it probably reflects what people thought.

Secondly, even assuming people aren't afraid of sorceresses in general (a highly illogical assumption IMO, for reasons stated), they would have every reason to be afraid of them after the game ends! Why? Because they would know, that although some sorceresses (like Edea) are actually benign, there would inevtiably come a sorceress (Ultimecia) who would kill countless people, wreak havoc in more than one era of time, and nearly destroy time and space as we know it. If that isn't reason enough to cause people to be suspicious of future sorceresses, I don't know what is!

Adding all the points argued by Qurange and Devourer of Worlds, along with all the initial points made, it seems HIGHLY likely that sorceresses would be, at least to an extent, persecuted.

EDIT: And as Devourer pointed out that Edea was giving her speech to civilians, not SeeD, the line 'condemned for generations' is indeed irrefutable proof of the persecution of sorceresses. From there, it is perfectly clear to see how a sorceress like Ultimecia might have come about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pirate Wench HowlingMonkey

Ultimecia has no clear motivation. She is simply Ultimecia. In short, she's a badly developed character who doesn't even qualify as being two-dimensional, let alone three.

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she doesnt need much backstory. shes just another peice of the time loop and didnt need much devolopment.the main part of the game was finding the source of the time loop and victims and finding out about the time loop and connectoins E.C.T not ending it. she wasnt a main part of the game.

I still fail to see the logic. Edea wasnt feared before Ulti possessed her, people respected good sorceresses, and Squall even says this to Rinoa at the orphanage after her rescue:

Quote:

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Squall: Don't worry about it. There've been many good sorceresses. Edea
was one. You can be like her.

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You see, there were good sorceresses, the people in Deling thought Edea was one ( she is, but not when she is possessed ). Im sure there was some persecution, but definately not all sorceresses were.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Devourer Of Worlds

As can be seen, Deling was surprised by Edea’s sudden outburst, implying that at this moment in time, Ultimecia had not yet presented her true nature.

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Of course, they thought Edea ( Ulti ) was going to help them, they assumed she was good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Devourer Of Worlds

So the only possible reason that Deling would automatically assume that people would be intimidated by Edea would be if people generally feared sorceresses.

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Deling was surprised because they believed Edea to be good. But when she killed the president, they saw who she really was, and it shocked them. Their hero had murdered their leader, of course they are going to be surprised, duh. That doesnt prove the SP theory true.

Sir Bahamut, your last post made alot of sense. I am starting to see your logic...Not all sorceresses were persecuted, but in Ulti's time she is most likely persecuted and rejected causing her anger. I wonder why no other sorceresses helped Ulti achieve her goal or tried TC too if they were all persecuted though.

Personally, I think that Ultimecia probably killed most of the other Sorceresses in her time herself--to take on their powers, and so get closer to her goal. Given that Adel can try the same to Rinoa (though she failed), I certainly see it happening. For that matter, I wouldn't be surprised if she attempted something of the same while possessing Edea, before the game started.

But, I think you do see the most important point--maybe good sorceresses are respected in /this/ time (even if they probably make people nervous), but SeeD, if not the world, will only get more wary of Sorceresses by the time Ultimecia arrives--though I still don't think anyone but SeeD would've known about her in particular.

I doubt that even in this time they 'assume' goodness, but certainly, the present doesn't have the same hate. Then again, most people will never meet a Sorceress.

Noj_R, you don’t seem to get what I’m saying. I have little doubt that up until the speech in Deling City, Edea had been the polite, caring person she naturally is; and this is exactly my point. It is stated within the game that President Deling decided to use her as his ambassador because ‘The sorceress creates fear among people’, and he planned to use this to further his quest for world domination. Now, why on earth would he just assume that people would fear Edea if she hadn’t committed any menacing acts yet? The obvious answer (and as far as I can tell the only answer) is that he knew they would be afraid of her because she is a sorceress. Either this fear is because of Adel or it dates back even further, thus fear of sorceresses dates back at least to Adel’s rise to power; about 17 years ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noj_R

That doesnt prove the SP theory true.

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I did actually state that in my above posts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qurange

Personally, I think that Ultimecia probably killed most of the other Sorceresses in her time herself--to take on their powers, and so get closer to her goal. Given that Adel can try the same to Rinoa (though she failed), I certainly see it happening. For that matter, I wouldn't be surprised if she attempted something of the same while possessing Edea, before the game started.

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Actually, if what Odine said is true and Rinoa is the last sorceress left after Adel is killed, then Ultimecia must have been the only sorceress in her time as well. Unless of course sorceresses can pass portions of their powers to multiple people.

You are right. You have provided excellent evidence and negated all of my statements with reasonable ingame proof. I now believe that sorceresses were indeed feared and misunderstood despite their real intentions, whether they were good or bad. Cheers! :beer:

Glad you now agree, and especially glad that you aren't one of those people who refuse to give in on an argument even after changing their mind! If there were more of that kind of people, the internet would be a better place ;)