This is just to give you something to think while I finish the game.
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This is just to give you something to think while I finish the game.
Greeeaat...
Omega duh.
Adel took me 2 hits with the Lionheart. Omega was impossible.
Adel is a weakling who has to absorb hp from Rinoa to stay alive. Easiest fight, ever. Omega is a friggin' beast.
Adel isn't difficult once you get to certain levels (75+?). I wouldn't say she was the easiest boss ingame, though. But Omega's definately more of a challenge.
Adel could easily beat Omega Weapon with her freaky look.
Omega considering he was the only one out of the two I could not beat..
~Setzer Gabianni
How in the world did you think of a rivalry between Omega Wepaon and Adel?
Answer it based on the storyline and not on your battle experience.
Omega weapon has a storyline?
That might be tough, considering that Omega Weapon plays no part in the storyline....:rolleyes2
Adel has.
Not much of a competition then is it?
Take your time.You will understand when I give the answer.
Dont you know the answer yet?
yes.
oh, ok. what is it?
I can see your point Future Esthar.
The hell?
Ultima Weapon still pwns them both. :greenie:
O man I really can't wait to hear this one. FE's essays are one of my favourite aspects of EoFF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
*sits and waits*
This is a poll so it will take some days.
I already gave the answer to Soul Hunter.
Soul Hunter,when I give the permission donīt you mind to translate what I told you here(just when I gave the permission)?
I would go for Omega mate.
adel = easy
omega weapon = freaking hard
Well, the only story info we have on Omega Weapon is its scan info, which states it is the most powerful monster in the world.
So yeah, can’t see how you couldn’t vote for Omega…
You haven't beaten the game before, FE?
Adel would win based on storyline simply because Omega Weapon has NO storyline at all.
Adel would look back at her story and tell it to Omega weapon, and Omega would get confused as to where he actually came into the game, and proceed to attack himself with terra break repeatedly in his confusion. :D
Give the answer? Anyone who knows a lick about FF8 knows the answer to this question. What makes you think you are more qualified than all of us to give a "definite" answer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
It case you guys didnt know: (SPOILER)Omega Weapon would freakin pwn Adel AND Ulti at the same time...
square definetly intended omega to be the strongest monster on the game. im sure everyone found him harder than adel and also found all of the preparing for the battle harder than adel and also omage does much more damage is near invincible because of his massive durability so omega wins.
EDIT: and i have took into thought what FE said because it is true that although an enemy seems stronger they arent always because they have to get harder later on in the game.if the game strongly implied that adel was stronger than omega although its the harder battle it doesnt make omega stronger than adel , but i thought about other things and concluded that i believe omega is stronger.
Exactly. If I ever meet anyone who had a harder time beating Adel than Omega Weapon, I'll eat my shoes...:eep:Quote:
Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf
Well, I did, but only because I fought Adel while asleep.
No, you don't have to eat those shows. I was lying. Adel is easy as all get out.
Whatever Esthar's on, I want to study, synthesize, and sell for profit.
::sits back for quarter-assed cockamamie explanation that requires immense applications of the grand deciever fallacy to even begin to work::
Even if you compare Ultima with adel, it will still kick her arse!
::sits beside and sips tea while waiting for the cockamamie explanation::Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryushikaze
That's because Ultima > Omega. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by roxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultima Shadow
I had beat the game hundreds of times.I know that Adel is easier than Omega Weapon.
But there is a logical explanation for that.Adel is in disadvantage in relation to Omega.
Yes. She's a plot boss. Plot bosses are always easier to beat than optional bosses.
thatīs right.
And as for a storyline explanation...
The party basically jumped Adel while she was still weak--which is why the battle was so easy. She was strong enough before being locked away to take over Esthar, quite possibly on her own. If she weren't still groggy? She'd take Omega, no contest.
(Or you can just say 'plot battle', but. I prefer to have a bit of internal logic aside from that kind of concern.)
Ok, if thats the case. Why is Omega Weapon harder than fighing Ultimecia and Griever in their prime?Quote:
Originally Posted by Qurange
But the real point is this: Square put Omega and Ultima Weapon in the game as challenges for their hardcore fans, this is done for almost all the FFs. It adds replay to the game.
I could mention that Omega was an amalgamation of many monsters through Time Compression, and that he was thus stronger, or that SeeDs are trained primarily to fight Sorceresses, buut...
Mostly, I'm just offering an alterative, internal explanation. Either is valid; it depends on perspective. From an out-of-game perspective, they're special battles put in for greater game challenge, yes. But, I like to be able to explain things without resorting to external things like that, as I like to occasionally roleplay or write fanfic in that setting, so internal consistency just makes that more fun.
There both easy, but Omega can take longer, so Omega is stronger.
You get it Qrange.
There are many explanations.
1-Adels is awakening making her weaker.
2-Her powers were just sealed.
What if by "sealed" the game means "stored in a closed place" instead of just "suppressed"?
The word "sealed" means closed in.
I'm pretty sure Omega could have taken over or destroyed Esthar just as easily. Omega and Ultima were meant to be the most powerful creatures in the world... and they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qurange
Nice one Qurange. ;)
If Adel was fighting at her full power she would stronger than Omega Weapon. When she fought Squall and his group, she wasn't at her full potential.
*Thinks back to FFVIII*
This one has Omega Weapon that can kill you within one move or something like that isn't it?
Logical fallacy. Due to the nature of the sorceress powers as far as we understood them, Adel had only a portion of the powers that Ultimecia had eventually. Therefore we know that Ulti was more powerful than Adel. And Ulti was more fighting at her full strength. Yet Ulti was still not as powerful as Omega.Quote:
Originally Posted by soul_hunter
The topic doesnt state "if Adel had her true power who would be the strongest" I'm assume the whole point in this thread is "who's the strongest when you battle them". This being Omega Weapon.
Exactly.:greenie:Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
The game circumstances indicate that the Omega is powerful. Although in the game we faced a weak Adel, and I believe that she wasn’t using even the half of her powers. I understood your point Skyblade.
Both Omega and Adel are hard, but I say Omega is undefeatable, I've attempted to slay it 20 times now, and I never got past making 2 hits on it before it would do this fire thing that instantly kills everyone.
Edit: Isn't Adel a guy, looks like one, doesn't even have breasts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Schovitz
Not undefeatable. He just requires strategy. He is hard if you don't have a good strategy. He is easy if you do have a good strategy.
And Omega is clearly the strongest one there is ^_^
Ultima Weapon - "The strongest Ultima weapon. It's said to be impossible to defeat"
Omega Weapon - Stronger than Ultima Weapon, Omega Weapon is the strongest monster. It is bad luck to run into this monster.
Correction: Ultima Weapon - "The strongest ultimate monster. It's said to be impossible to defeat"Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaotic
And yes... saying that Ultima Weapon is the strongest monster and then saying that Omega is stronger is a bit weird.
yeah you're right, one of those brain teasers xD Ultima weapon, ultimate monster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultima Shadow
Anyways, I was just quoting it out of the strategy guide.
The fallacy is yours.
It is not implied on the game that Adelīs powers came from Ulti or were less.
In fact Ulti without Griever is weaker than the weak Adel.I say this based on my battle experience.
No, child. Tis yourn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
No, they didn't come from Ulti, but they WERE less. All Sorceress powers were supposed to come from the same source. Ulti is the last sorceress, having all of the sorceress power.Quote:
It is not implied on the game that Adelīs powers came from Ulti or were less.
Everyone here and the game stats says no. Your claim is not validated simply because you make it.Quote:
In fact Ulti without Griever is weaker than the weak Adel.I say this based on my battle experience.
Um...omega weapon. I couldnt' even frickin beat Ultima weapon when I first went through the game!
Duh. Omega is by far harder.
Adel can be taken easily in a couple hits, but Omega presents a much more difficult challenge.
Soul_Hunter,you have my permission to post the English translation.
And...
1-Who said Ulti is the only sorceress on the future?
2-Who can prove she is on the future either?No one has done it.
This one settles everything.
3-It didnīt matter the stats or HP.
Adel is much harder than Ultiīs first form.
Itīs easy to see that if you are at the same level on Adel and Ultiīs fights Adel will be more difficult.
Ulti is easier than Edeaīs second fight ever.
Maybe even the first fight(this one I am unsure).
Thatīs why Ulti needs Griever to fight you.
She just has more HP than Adel and Edea.
And I have good news.
I finished the game again yesterday.
:kaocheer:OMEGA!!!:kaocheer:
She was subsuming other people. She was awake.Quote:
1-Adels is awakening making her weaker.
Burden of proof to show that they did anything other than keep her from using her powers.Quote:
2-Her powers were just sealed.
What if by "sealed" the game means "stored in a closed place" instead of just "suppressed"?
The word "sealed" means closed in.
Several people, several times, including herself. Not only that, but when she was dying, she was required to actually return back in time to pass her powers on, meaning there was no one even suitable to be a sorceress in her time other than herself, meaning there were no other sorceresses.Quote:
1-Who said Ulti is the only sorceress on the future?
Let's see... she knows who SeeD are. SeeD was created 12 years prior to the start of FF8 when Squall in a timeloop gave Edea the idea. There was no such thing as SeeD before this time.Quote:
2-Who can prove she is on the future either?No one has done it.
This one settles everything.
Similarly, Junction Machine Ellone could not exist before Ellone. By necessity, she must exist at some point when this machine does exist. It does not exist in the present day, nor did it exist in the past (and even if it did, it wouldn't matter, since it's one directional anyways).
Hence, future.
Oh yes, the best known method for comparing people within system doesn't matter. Makes perfect sense.Quote:
3-It didnīt matter the stats or HP.
I absolutely disagree with all of this. I've FOUGHT them at the same level. Adel is easier, and that's even including the fact that Adel has a hostage.Quote:
Adel is much harder than Ultiīs first form.
Itīs easy to see that if you are at the same level on Adel and Ultiīs fights Adel will be more difficult.
Ulti is easier than Edeaīs second fight ever.
Maybe even the first fight(this one I am unsure).
Thatīs why Ulti needs Griever to fight you.
She just has more HP than Adel and Edea.
Actually, this one is accurate--remember the speech back in Laguna's office? The plan was to strike at Adel quickly, before she had the time to recover her powers and her bearings. (It would take time, even if you were partially awake, to recover from being stuck somewhere for seventeen years.) So, considering that I think that we can assume that Odine knew what he was talking about, Adel was in fact not fighting at her full power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryushikaze
As for sealing her power, I don't see why they'd have needed to do much else; she couldn't move, she probably couldn't use her power for anything but to keep her muscles from atrophying, and I bet she went a bit more crazy. She could communicate, but I really don't see how 'sealing' or 'suppressing' would make much difference, in this case; Odine equipment does both.
Actually, this is an assumption on your part. Firstly, there's no proof that Ultimecia was the last Sorceress in her time prior to Time Compression (though it's a reasonable assumption that if there are any she'd missed, they were hiding very well.) Secondly, the fact that Ultimecia went back in time didn't necessarily have anything to do with lacking a suitable successor in her time--and in fact, unless she'd really killed everyone in the world, I doubt that that was the case. I think it's more likely that, in her fractured state, she was unable to concentrate on very much, and ended up being swept along with Squall, back to the Sorceress she'd been controlling in the first place, and...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryushikaze
Well. That goes on from there.
And of course, I agree that it's ridiculous to state that Ultimecia wasn't from the future.
As to using game stats and deciding how hard the battles were, I don't really know of any objective way to combine those, which makes answering questions with them kind of difficult. We can easily explain most of the positions, though; Omega Weapon could have been more powerful (if only in combat) because he was an amalgamation of monsters, designed for killing, while the Sorceress wasn't quite so specialized. Ultimecia could have been easier becuase, despite her phenomenal cosmic Sorceress powers, a significant amount of them was tied up in absorbing time and space, leaving her what she used to fight the party. Adel, of course, was still not yet recovered. It's just a matter of thinking it out, and making sure it all fits.
You are relying on information told by Odine which could be false.Quote:
Let's see... she knows who SeeD are. SeeD was created 12 years prior to the start of FF8 when Squall in a timeloop gave Edea the idea. There was no such thing as SeeD before this time.
Similarly, Junction Machine Ellone could not exist before Ellone. By necessity, she must exist at some point when this machine does exist. It does not exist in the present day, nor did it exist in the past (and even if it did, it wouldn't matter, since it's one directional anyways).
Hence, future.
Policeman donīt do this.They concentrate on physical proof.
So give me a proof or at list evidence or hint that she comes from the future based on physical proof other than dialogue.
I will start myself:
1-We donīt see the pictures on Ultiīs castle anywherwe on the "present".
2-On the "present" no one needs birds to send messages to anyone.
3-Monarchy seems to had ended on the present.We know from Solomonīs ring that it existed on the past.
Considering 1 and assuming Ulti lives on the future the paintings were made some years from the present,right?
So they describe events between the two times.
Which made them strange,specially "Red Clothes" and "Messenger".
Where is a picture of an elevator,a picture of a car,a picture of a radio or telephone (which would make more sense than "Messenger"),a picture of a train,a picture of a spaceship?
Some of these pictures depict ancient like cities and it didnīt make sense that people would make cities like that from the present on.
4-Suposedly Ultimecia made her Castle.She would had soldiers or she would not make the armory.Letīs see,what kinds of soldiers would dress that medieval armor?
Galbadian soldiers?Esthar soldiers?White SeeD?Seed?Traitor Seeds like Seifer?Some unknown country who borns on the future?
It must be a very traditionalist or conservative country,really.
I donīt really think it were monsters either.
Did Ulti made them magically?(lol)
People will argue about the clock,the Helix and other things like that but they just show that someone from the future is possessing Ulti and making that stuff through her.
Burden of proof is on YOU to prove that he is. I can just as easily declare that Zell might be lying about his gender with equal validity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
1- The towns and structures of the present still exist. This includes things which by their nature- such as paved roads, trains, etc. cannot be particularly old. Especially damning is fisherman's wharf.Quote:
Policeman donīt do this.They concentrate on physical proof.
So give me a proof or at list evidence or hint that she comes from the future based on physical proof other than dialogue.
2- Centra. It was wiped out within recent history of present. It is still as such in future. It would be different in past.
Which means nothing. We don't see any of the vehicles in Episode one of SW in the OT.Quote:
I will start myself:
1-We donīt see the pictures on Ultiīs castle anywherwe on the "present".
Need, hell no. Still employed- YES. In our world of Phone, Internet, LIVE STREAMING INTERNATIONAL TELECONFERENCE, still have people who send messages via birds.Quote:
2-On the "present" no one needs birds to send messages to anyone.
'Monarchy' can exist any time someone with enough power gets it into their head to call themselves such. And monarchy was not that long dead in FF8.Quote:
3-Monarchy seems to had ended on the present.We know from Solomonīs ring that it existed on the past.
No. Unwarranted assumption. All of your assumptions beyond this point hinge on this unwarranted assumption that these paintings did not exist in Squall's era.Quote:
Considering 1 and assuming Ulti lives on the future the paintings were made some years from the present,right?
Still hinging on that assumption, I see. The possibility that Ultimecia likes classical paintings never crossed your head, eh?Quote:
So they describe events between the two times.
Which made them strange,specially "Red Clothes" and "Messenger".
Where is a picture of an elevator,a picture of a car,a picture of a radio or telephone (which would make more sense than "Messenger"),a picture of a train,a picture of a spaceship?
Some of these pictures depict ancient like cities and it didnīt make sense that people would make cities like that from the present on.
You assume that a crazy woman whose plan it is to effectively eat time and who employs monsters up the ying-yang to defend her personal space would A: Build an armory for a purpose instead of for appearances, or B: Actually employ HUMAN guards?Quote:
4-Suposedly Ultimecia made her Castle.She would had soldiers or she would not make the armory.Letīs see,what kinds of soldiers would dress that medieval armor?
Heck, look up "Mad king Ludvig". That man put more useless stuff than an armory no one used in his castles, and he wasn't half as crazy as Ultipoo.
Or it's kept for ceremonial purposes, if it's used at all. I know people who keep suits of armor as decoration, or to occasionally wear, not for any practical purpose.Quote:
Galbadian soldiers?Esthar soldiers?White SeeD?Seed?Traitor Seeds like Seifer?Some unknown country who borns on the future?
It must be a very traditionalist or conservative country,really.
The armor? It's possible. It's also possible that she got so wrapped up in the classic 'romantic' idea of nobility that she gathered up all the ye olde crappe she could find and threw a castle together out of it.Quote:
I donīt really think it were monsters either.
Did Ulti made them magically?(lol)
In a word- Bull. Medieval technology could not reconstruct such things. And if Ulti's doing it, then why can't she have simply created everything else herself?Quote:
People will argue about the clock,the Helix and other things like that but they just show that someone from the future is possessing Ulti and making that stuff through her.
Basically, your argument here is 'Well, it looks medieval-ish, so it must be that time.'
Do you realize how silly this is? If you blindfolded, KOd, and then woke up in a room decorated entirely in 70's fashion, but which had DISTINCT anachronisms- things which could not have POSSIBLY been constructed by the existing technologies of the 70's, would you honestly conclude that it must be the 70's?
Now then, I put the onus upon you to attempt to refute all this WITHOUT INVOKING YOUR THEORY. If you invoke your theory to DEFEND your theory, you will be using circular logic, and automatically fail.
First, we are totally off topic, but I dont even see the point of this thread. It is going nowhere fast and has no point to it.
Anyway...
I have proven that Odine CANNOT possess anyone and rendering Ulti undoubtedly from the future, in post #569 of the "1572 thread". Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty, police also use this, its called the law in America. If you are gonna use policeman logistics to prove your point then you cannot assume Odine is lying if there is zero evidence, he must first be assumed innocent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noj_R
Agreed. This topic should be closed, i mean the thread has gone so far from the topic, that you would need to catch a plane to get back.
Seriously, stay on topic.
And 1 more think, were'nt we talking about who is stronger, if Adel or Omega Weapon?
My head hurts reading this thread.
Quote:
I have proven that Odine CANNOT possess anyone and rendering Ulti undoubtedly from the future, in post #569 of the "1572 thread". Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty, police also use this, its called the law in America. If you are gonna use policeman logistics to prove your point then you cannot assume Odine is lying if there is zero evidence, he must first be assumed innocent.
Where is the evidence to support that Centra was wiped out in Ultiīs time?Quote:
2- Centra. It was wiped out within recent history of present. It is still as such in future. It would be different in past.
Even so it was wiped out 100 years ago.Ulti might leave on the past less than 100 years ago.Who knows?
Very silly argument.
1-You hadnīt proven anything.I will soon reply to that.
2-No one can say Odine is lying but no one can base thruth on his words either.
Odine can time travel his gadgets from the future.Quote:
In a word- Bull. Medieval technology could not reconstruct such things. And if Ulti's doing it, then why can't she have simply created everything else herself?
As I said on the last answer....Quote:
If you blindfolded, KOd, and then woke up in a room decorated entirely in 70's fashion, but which had DISTINCT anachronisms- things which could not have POSSIBLY been constructed by the existing technologies of the 70's, would you honestly conclude that it must be the 70's?
Anyway,I had more evidence which support my theory about Ulti being from the past than the ones who seems to contradict it.
There are more things supporting this theory than things refuting it.
This one is interesting.Quote:
1- The towns and structures of the present still exist. This includes things which by their nature- such as paved roads, trains, etc. cannot be particularly old. Especially damning is fisherman's wharf.
I allways thought that the portals were passages on time compression which leads to other times rather than teleporters.
They led to Squallīs era.
But people assume that it is on the future.
Why?
Everything refute it.
1-Edeaīs house didnīt exist anymore on Ultiīs time.It exists on the world map.
2-Where is Ultiīs castle on the world map?
3-There are topological land differences between Ultiīs and present time.Where do we see this on the World map?
4-There werenīt any dialogues on the game suggesting that the portals donīt send people to other times.
5-White Seed ship is attached to Ultiīs castle.Where did it appear on the world map?
6-The world didnīt seem to change much for many generations.
Even if we can prove this to be true,Centra was wiped out 100 years ago.Who knows if Ultiīs time was less than 100 years ago?Quote:
2- Centra. It was wiped out within recent history of present. It is still as such in future. It would be different in past.
Burden of proof is always on the positive claim- IE, yours. You must now prove that his words cannot be trusted.Quote:
1-You hadnīt proven anything.I will soon reply to that.
2-No one can say Odine is lying but no one can base thruth on his words either.
The continent IS SHATTERED. This happened, as mentioned, within recent history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Back at you 100 fold.Quote:
Even so it was wiped out 100 years ago.Ulti might leave on the past less than 100 years ago.Who knows?
Very silly argument.
So, you're proposing that technology in Final Fantasy 8 went from Medieval to Beyond present day high tech in a manner of less than 100 years?
BURDEN OF PROOF. And if we are time travelling things, it's just as easy to time travel painting and armor from the past, too.Quote:
Odine can time travel his gadgets from the future.
No, since those things that DO contradict it being the past are ENOUGH. Again, I repeat the example of the Disco room with a few instances of future tech. Sane people do not assume future tech was brought back in time. Sane people assume retro decorators.Quote:
Anyway,I had more evidence which support my theory about Ulti being from the past than the ones who seems to contradict it.
There are more things supporting this theory than things refuting it.
No, child. Everything does not refute them being in the future, or the portals being teleporters rather than time travel gates.Quote:
This one is interesting.
I allways thought that the portals were passages on time compression which leads to other times rather than teleporters.
They led to Squallīs era.
But people assume that it is on the future.
Why?
Everything refute it.
The ruins thereof still exist, and that's enough to warrant a marker. They did as much for the ruins in which Odin is found.Quote:
1-Edeaīs house didnīt exist anymore on Ultiīs time.It exists on the world map.
Outside of time and space. Being inside what one eats, not so smart an idea. This idea has precedent within FF, when Exdeath tried a similar tactic with the X-zone and reality, and is used again in FF9 with Memoria.Quote:
2-Where is Ultiīs castle on the world map?
Why should we expect to see any significant topographic differences?Quote:
3-There are topological land differences between Ultiīs and present time.Where do we see this on the World map?
Unfortunately, so much of your postulation is reliant on us not being told something ISN'T the case, and handwaving away instances of people saying or doing things that kibosh your postulate.Quote:
4-There werenīt any dialogues on the game suggesting that the portals donīt send people to other times.
It was attached to her castle. Ergo, outside reality.Quote:
5-White Seed ship is attached to Ultiīs castle.Where did it appear on the world map?
Which it would when time travelling in either direction, but given the recent creation of much of the landmarks, it can't be the past.Quote:
6-The world didnīt seem to change much for many generations.
The fact that FH exists kiboshes this idea.Quote:
Even if we can prove this to be true,Centra was wiped out 100 years ago.Who knows if Ultiīs time was less than 100 years ago?
Basically, though, your big issue is that Ulti's castle does not appear on the world map, and so it must be elsewhen, despite precedent both before and after of dungeons which do not appear on the worldmap being outside of reality as it is usually thought of.
FE, in another thread you have already been proven wrong on this topic. I would suggest that this discussion be dropped since it has already been resolved elsewhere.
I donīt think I had been proven wrong.
The world is already Time Compressed on the three first discs.Quote:
Back at you 100 fold.
So, you're proposing that technology in Final Fantasy 8 went from Medieval to Beyond present day high tech in a manner of less than 100 years?
I had many threads on this.Go read them to understand the theory better.Ancient members know it better.
Esthar,Galbadia and Centra for example arenīt on the same era.
And since the hit was found to be on Centra 100 years ago It only passed 100 years on Centra.But people on FF8 donīt know the world is time compressed so they assume it to have passed 100 years on Galbadia and Esthar.
But thatīs not the thruth.It passed much more than 100 years on both.
And we know that Centra is not that advanced.
What is that?Quote:
Sane people assume retro decorators.
Oh,yeah.What about the missile base?The marker changed.It often happens on FF.Quote:
The ruins thereof still exist, and that's enough to warrant a marker. They did as much for the ruins in which Odin is found.
Consider for instance the mideel town on FF7 whose marker changed after the lifestream blow.
Thatīs not what the game says.It says that our characters should travel through time compression towards the future.Then thatīs Ultiīs TIME.Quote:
Outside of time and space. Being inside what one eats, not so smart an idea. This idea has precedent within FF, when Exdeath tried a similar tactic with the X-zone and reality, and is used again in FF9 with Memoria.
Near the door to her castle some character says-"So this is the future".
Because we see it on the field.Quote:
Why should we expect to see any significant topographic differences?
Donīt misunderstand me.I donīt said that the world map was on the past.It is on the present(Squallīs time).Quote:
Which it would when time travelling in either direction, but given the recent creation of much of the landmarks, it can't be the past.
Ultiīs castle despite being created on the past was remodeled many times and still exist on the future of course.
Citizens of the future would call it Estharīs Presidencial Palace.
What you think and what happens are two totally different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
WHEE! INVOKING THEORY TO DEFEND THEORY! CIRCULAR LOGIC! FAILURE!Quote:
The world is already Time Compressed on the three first discs.
I had many threads on this.Go read them to understand the theory better.Ancient members know it better.
Esthar,Galbadia and Centra for example arenīt on the same era.
And since the hit was found to be on Centra 100 years ago It only passed 100 years on Centra.But people on FF8 donīt know the world is time compressed so they assume it to have passed 100 years on Galbadia and Esthar.
But thatīs not the thruth.It passed much more than 100 years on both.
And we know that Centra is not that advanced.
BTW, I HAVE read your old claims. Unlike other people, I'm demanding you pony up evidence, not more postulates- like that asinine time travelling chobobo BS you fed elsewhen-, to defend your statements.
Oh, and burden of proof on the Centra claim.
Retro decorators in this case means that any sane person will realize that chronological anachronisms mean that it's not the 70's. Ulti's castle is similar.Quote:
What is that?
Funny, I note massive destruction involved in those cases. Not so with orphanage.Quote:
Oh,yeah.What about the missile base?The marker changed.It often happens on FF.
Consider for instance the mideel town on FF7 whose marker changed after the lifestream blow.
I do so love it when people quote things that destroy their postulates.Quote:
Thatīs not what the game says.It says that our characters should travel through time compression towards the future.Then thatīs Ultiīs TIME.
Near the door to her castle some character says-"So this is the future".
In any case, it can still be the future and be outside 'space' as it is classicly understood. You've got reality warping magics involved, after all.
Oh. Yes. That's terribly informative. ::rolls eyes:: vague assertions don't make for good arguments.Quote:
Because we see it on the field.
Again, I repeat- why should we expect to see the massive topographical changes.
Despite all dialogue to the contrary.Quote:
Donīt misunderstand me.I donīt said that the world map was on the past.It is on the present(Squallīs time).
Squbba wha? INTENSE burden of proof, since that's NOT how remodelling works.Quote:
Ultiīs castle despite being created on the past was remodeled many times and still exist on the future of course.
Citizens of the future would call it Estharīs Presidencial Palace.
You are arguing with a wall here, buddy...:rolleyes2
Why do people think they had refuted me just because I donīt reply to their posts?Quote:
What you think and what happens are two totally different things.
That didnīt make sense.
Not to defend theory but to show that your Centra claim donīt show Ulti to be on the future.Quote:
WHEE! INVOKING THEORY TO DEFEND THEORY! CIRCULAR LOGIC! FAILURE!
BTW, I HAVE read your old claims. Unlike other people, I'm demanding you pony up evidence, not more postulates- like that asinine time travelling chobobo BS you fed elsewhen-, to defend your statements.
Oh, and burden of proof on the Centra claim.
The very fact that I can make up a logical theory to explain the Centra subject shows the argument to be invalid.
You did the same with me when you said that the very fact that there were many medieval things on Ultiīs castle donīt means she is from the past.She could just like medieval things.But you canīt prove that either.
So you are also using made up theories to invalidate arguments.
So basically,I canīt prove her to be from the past nor you canīt prove her to be from the future.
.Quote:
Funny, I note massive destruction involved in those cases. Not so with orphanage.
You must be blind then.
The game implies that it is possible to time travel inside time compression,so what is the problem of people with the concept of time travelling portals?Quote:
I do so love it when people quote things that destroy their postulates.
In any case, it can still be the future and be outside 'space' as it is classicly understood. You've got reality warping magics involved, after all.
Anyway,every people can see that the Castle was in a physical place near Edeaīs house.
So your theory is bull unless you think Ulti can magically imitate that outside space.
Do you remember what happens when you defeat Weapon over Cosmo Canyon?Quote:
Oh. Yes. That's terribly informative. ::rolls eyes:: vague assertions don't make for good arguments.
Again, I repeat- why should we expect to see the massive topographical changes.
It falls over the floor and we see a change on the topography on the world map.
And we also note some changes on the topography of the Midgar continent on the third disc.
Why?How it works then?Quote:
since that's NOT how remodelling works.
Wall would be more yeilding, sturdier, and a lot more grounded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noj_R
No, it made sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
In short, defending your claim.Quote:
Not to defend theory but to show that your Centra claim donīt show Ulti to be on the future.
If it was logical, that would mean something.Quote:
The very fact that I can make up a logical theory to explain the Centra subject shows the argument to be invalid.
No, I'm using the anachronistic elements to debunk you, while attempting rationalize why Ulti would have such stuff.Quote:
You did the same with me when you said that the very fact that there were many medieval things on Ultiīs castle donīt means she is from the past.She could just like medieval things.But you canīt prove that either.
But the makers of the game support my position far more than they do yours.Quote:
So you are also using made up theories to invalidate arguments.
So basically,I canīt prove her to be from the past nor you canīt prove her to be from the future.
Keyword- massive.Quote:
You must be blind then.
Nothing, save that is has no support in game, and no precendence, within FF.Quote:
The game implies that it is possible to time travel inside time compression,so what is the problem of people with the concept of time travelling portals?
I do, and I have precendent of outside-where's.Quote:
Anyway,every people can see that the Castle was in a physical place near Edeaīs house.
So your theory is bull unless you think Ulti can magically imitate that outside space.
Yes, because it was a catastrophic event.Quote:
Do you remember what happens when you defeat Weapon over Cosmo Canyon?
It falls over the floor and we see a change on the topography on the world map.
Also caused by world scale incidents.Quote:
And we also note some changes on the topography of the Midgar continent on the third disc.
For one, there are limits to how much a building can be altered, even assuming the foundations remain intact. For two, consider that Ulti palace is heavy walled brick. Esthar palace on the other hand, is a typical estharian building.Quote:
Why?How it works then?
Thirdly, the layout of the two buildings are nothing alike.
You are the wall,my friend.
Anyway,you canīt proof that the counterarguments I used to show that you canīt show Ulti is from the future using that two points you used were false.
And...
So you must respect my theories and not call me stupid or low grounded:mad2:Quote:
So basically,I canīt prove her to be from the past nor you canīt prove her to be from the future.
I am sorry ,there was a mistake.It isnīt the entire Castle which becomes the Palace.Quote:
For one, there are limits to how much a building can be altered, even assuming the foundations remain intact. For two, consider that Ulti palace is heavy walled brick. Esthar palace on the other hand, is a typical estharian building.
Thirdly, the layout of the two buildings are nothing alike.
It is only the Clock tower along with the master room and the bridge that links them.
The low residencial part of Ultiīs castle becomes Esthar Sorceress Memorial.
Anyway,it is not only remoddeling who leads to the differences.Sometimes there were parts that were destructed and other things like that.
Is there even an Ultima Weapon in the game?
Yes,there is.
Actually I have proven Ulti is from the future using very strong ingame evidence. This is evidence I have reorginized from post #534 of the "1572" thread:Quote:
So basically,I canīt prove her to be from the past nor you canīt prove her to be from the future.
1.) Odine says she is from the future, we can assume he tells the truth, since there is no evidence or motive for him to do otherwise.
2.) Odine obviously doesnt have the JME yet or else Squall and co. would destroy it, so it must be made in the future.
3.) Ellone only has the power to "teleport" BACK in time NOT FORWARD. In the whole game Ellone never goes forward in time ( she cant ), thus Ultimecia MUST be reaching BACK for Ellone as she cant go forward since Ellone doesnt possess that power. If she did, it would have been shown undoubtedly.
So, Ulti is undisputably from the future
WAY TO GO, I'm with Noj_RQuote:
Actually I have proven Ulti is from the future using very strong ingame evidence. This is evidence I have reorginized from post #534 of the "1572" thread:
1.) Odine says she is from the future, we can assume he tells the truth, since there is no evidence or motive for him to do otherwise.
2.) Odine obviously doesnt have the JME yet or else Squall and co. would destroy it, so it must be made in the future.
3.) Ellone only has the power to "teleport" BACK in time NOT FORWARD. In the whole game Ellone never goes forward in time ( she cant ), thus Ultimecia MUST be reaching BACK for Ellone as she cant go forward since Ellone doesnt possess that power. If she did, it would have been shown undoubtedly.
So, Ulti is undisputably from the future
the topic doesnt say that straigt out loud. it only says who is stronger , adel or omega. i agree that adel would probbably be stronger than omega at full power but i was judging on what the game says. it o.k for people to say " i think adel because if she was at fulll power she cou;d defeat omega." because the thread just says who is stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russielloyd
Who's the strongest? ME!!! ((Well, maybe not...))
Who would win in a fight against Omega Weapon and Adel? Chuck Norris
You had to proof Odine is telling the thruth before using that as an argument.Quote:
1.) Odine says she is from the future, we can assume he tells the truth, since there is no evidence or motive for him to do otherwise.
Basically if that is what Square intended for Odine when they created the dialogue.
You must proove he is telling the thruth about the machine before using that as argument.The machine already exists.I had already saw it.I realized it was the machine because I had saw also the less advanced version of that machine somewhere on the world.The primitive version is bigger and is used as a mirror to the junction of the more advanced one.Quote:
2.) Odine obviously doesnt have the JME yet or else Squall and co. would destroy it, so it must be made in the future.
The time Squall and Company go is on the past.This means Ulti canīt possess anyone.Quote:
Ellone only has the power to "teleport" BACK in time NOT FORWARD. In the whole game Ellone never goes forward in time ( she cant ), thus Ultimecia MUST be reaching BACK for Ellone as she cant go forward since Ellone doesnt possess that power. If she did, it would have been shown undoubtedly.
Which means there is a person on the future which is possessing everyone including Ulti.
You had to prove Ulti is possessing someone before using this as an argument.
So there you are.You hadnīt proved me wrong after all.
Policeman allways consider physical evidence better than the testimony of persons.So I am on the right track.
Yeah, you should definitely join the police. Although come to think of it, I don't know if I'd be very happy with the prospect of you tracking down mass murderers. :rolleyes2 I suspect the killer would die of old age while you try convincing everyone the killer is an innocent person who's been possessed by someone from the future :rolleyes2
Innocent until proven guilty, speaking of police work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
No we don't. Innocent til proven otherwise.Quote:
You must proove he is telling the thruth about the machine before using that as argument.The machine already exists.I had already saw it.I realized it was the machine because I had saw also the less advanced version of that machine somewhere on the world.The primitive version is bigger and is used as a mirror to the junction of the more advanced one.
...Vague claims, apparently the ability to determine purpose of an esoteric machine by simple appearance alone... Yeah. You're REALLY gonna have to work to prove that one.
You have to prove anything about your little conspiracy theory before using as a counter.Quote:
The time Squall and Company go is on the past.This means Ulti canīt possess anyone.
Which means there is a person on the future which is possessing everyone including Ulti.
You had to prove Ulti is possessing someone before using this as an argument.
Unfortunately, if we're going with the court of law analogy here, you're the prosecutor. You must prove your claims. The jury is unconvinced.Quote:
So there you are.You hadnīt proved me wrong after all.
Now if you only had EVIDENCE.Quote:
Policeman allways consider physical evidence better than the testimony of persons.So I am on the right track.
Ok, Future Esthar, for this paragraph, I will prove that they are in the future using nothing except what we see of Edea's house. I will not use anything that comes from the world map. Ok, in the flashbacks to Edea's house, during the time when it is an orphanage, it is a complete, nicely built building. In the "present", it is a broken down wreck. In Ulti's time, it is even more dilapidated. Had Ulti's time been in the past, the building would have been newer, and thus less broken down. Therefore, they must be in the future. Ulti knew about SeeD. The only way she could have known about SeeD had she come from the past, would be if she was there when the idea was formed. Which means that the house should have been in the condition it was in when we saw it in the flashbacks. So, the fact that Edea's house is broken down in Ulti's time proves that Ulti is from the future, not the past.
Not IF she is already possessed by someone from the future who knows Seed.Quote:
Ulti knew about SeeD. The only way she could have known about SeeD had she come from the past, would be if she was there when the idea was formed.
(Note that I said IF which means there were other possibilities which invalidate the argument.I am not backing up theories with theories).
I had already noted that.That is the best argument someone ever used to prove Ulti from the future.Quote:
Ok, in the flashbacks to Edea's house, during the time when it is an orphanage, it is a complete, nicely built building. In the "present", it is a broken down wreck.
But we donīt see Edeaīs house on the "future" after all.
We see something difficult to define.Itīs creepy.Looks like the body of a monster.
We see also the White Seed ship and some pillar ruins.
Adel is easy, OW is not!!!!!!!!! I suffered a lot before killing it................ but i did it!
Ok people, most of you voted on Omega Weapon as the strongest boss. Now heres the explanation of the reason of this thread.
Now as you may know, Future Esthar mention on some powerful God or entity who was the creator of all the human beings and also the responsible of the WOTC Well Organized Time Compression. His name is Hyne, which is called X by Future Esthar.
The true propose of X, was to amalgamation of the 8 Propagators. They are the strongest warriors from a unknown planet. They are our main hero of the Final Fantasy 8. Im talking about Squall, Rinoa, Zell, Selphie, Irvine, Quistis, Seifer and Edea. When they arrived on Earth, they became the rulers of the Centra Civilization.
The amalgamation of those Propagators results in some powerful being, who wants to dominate the world in his own Era.
This powerful creature is Adel, her power is beyond of the imagination and virtually unbeatable.
You all may think as amalgamation, or a fusion like Power Rangers, Captain Planet or a fusion between Transformers. For that reason Adels true powers is far superior than Omega Weapon.
Now the main doubt: why does Adel looks so easy to beat?
When Adel was caught, her powers were sealed in the Memorial. Those powers were transformed in some gas form and it was saved in some gas container under pressure.
At the time that Adel arrived from the space, it was necessary to recover her powers back. X orders the scientists from the Memorial to get Rinoa, using the excuse that she was possessed by Ultimecia, and for the sake of humanity... she must be isolated in order to control her powers.
But the main plan was to pass Adels powers to Rinoa, and then to use Seifer to bring Rinoa to the weak Adel. And with that, Adel could recover her true power.
But the plan was a failure, because Squall rescued Rinoa at the Memorial, and the power transference wasnt succeeded. Also with Wards help (which has a bigger influence than X), did it to save them.
At the time that Rinoa was stocked in Adels body, she was a weak opponent, because Rinoa didnt absorbed much on the Memorial. And because of that Adel was an easy boss, and her defeat was inevitable.
Now if Adel would be succeeded on her complete restoration, it would be the hardest battle in this game.
Well, I'm speechless.
[Sarcasm]Yes. That's utterly parsimonious and in line with the rest of the game[/Sarcasm]
The last part made sense.At least I think.
Please,be willing to discuss instead of making assertions.
I already say my opinion of the propagators and my theory of the time complex in your other thread, FE.
I'll just stick to my believes, think whatever you want. Actually, only Square-Enix has the last word. See ya later!
I think if you fought Adel at her full potental she would be more powerful then Ultimacea.
Never fought omega weapon myself but Adel's just a pushover if you have the Lionheart.
How would you know Adel's true power? You cant see it in the game and though it MIGHT be more powerful than Omega you cant really tell. We could just as easily say that the guy in timber who gives you free potions is really an incredible fighter that could pwn Omega and Adel single handedly if he were to fight at his full strenght and you cant argue otherwise as we didnt have a chance to witness his incredible fighting (and possibly magical) abilities!!
Omega is more powerful than Adel because when you beat Omega you get a certificate that specifically tells you that he is the most powerful being in the world.
Somehow Odine is behind that certificate.He is the first interested that people think he is the most powerful.I am sure our heros didnīt brought this information to Garden.Quote:
Omega is more powerful than Adel because when you beat Omega you get a certificate that specifically tells you that he is the most powerful being in the world.
But think a little:
Our guys (only six) defeat Omega Weapon.
Which means he was the strongest up to now.
Omega weapon is the strongest monster PEOPLE KNOW.
If Adel is an amalgament of our characters it means that Adel is at least more than twice times stronger than Omega Weapon at full power(only three battle against him and they are 8).
Since 8 is 9-1 and it seems our caracters could defeat Omega Weapon even if it had +1/3 of itīs strenght (making the three characters value as four),I can estimate Adel at her full power to be at least three times stronger than Omega Weapon.
Imagine now Adel using attacks more powerfull than Ultima and Quake.
Adel would be kinda like some DBZ villains which could destroy entire planets.
In fact,the many topographical transformations occuring on the different eras were probably due to Adel.Riding the Pandora in stealth mode no one would see the Pandora and people would think the catastrophes were natural.
The certificate doesn't actually exist in terms of the plot, it's just an easter egg put in by the development to signify that you beat the most powerful monster in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
Meaning that they intended for Omega Weapon to be the most powerful monster in the world.
Meaning you're wrong.
Whoa.All the stuff here is so complicated.
No, it's actually very simple. Future Esthar has yet to prove one arguement, the other active discussers are clearly winning.
That argument of mine wasnīt really necessary.
Our characters can defeat Omega.
Meaning they are stronger.
They arenīt monsters.
Omega is the most powerfull monster.
A sorceress is not a monster.
Adel is an amalgamation of our characters.
Therefore Adel is stronger than Omega when she has all her powers.
No,until they prove their assertions and disprove mines we are at a draw.Quote:
No, it's actually very simple. Future Esthar has yet to prove one arguement, the other active discussers are clearly winning.
That's the trick you see, they prove their theories, but you don't prove yours. Ever.
i dont get it
No,they donīt prove theirs.
Nor, child, did you prove yours. Yours, however, require a great deal more hoops to be jumped through.
As such, they are not parsimonious and as such are disfavored.
You've still got the grand deceiver disadvantage.
And actually, for the most part, your opponents are asserting a negative. You, as the one fronting the positive claim, MUST SUPPORT YOUR THEORY, OR ELSE IT FAILS BY DEFAULT, whether or not people contest it with another theory.
"That apple is blue." "No, it's red." "No, it's blue, but you've been made to only SEE it as red."
What is a parsimonium?
parsimonious.- "excessively unwilling to spend"Quote:
What is a parsimonium?
What the... the smurf?
Explain me that in the context please.
And don't forget that Adel was caught at the time she started to gather Rinoa's energy, it also means that she wasn't fully recovered. But even that Adel absorbed all Rinoas energy; she could not have her full strength, because the big part of her powers was yet at the Memorial.
How does that justify the existance of ALL your theories then? Where in the game does it that Cid = Quistis or whatever the hell your latest crackpot, "I have to much time on my hands" assumption is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
We just KNOW that you're an idiot so we don't bother arguing back. :rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
There is a word for that:ARROGANCE.
(Sorry for the flame mods but they flamed me first).
Look Mo-Nercy, no one is forcing you to come in here and start to insult the other members. If you have something to say without any offensive words, then you can say it. Independent of the opinion divergences, people should be respected.
The problem is that FE never understand when he has lost.
No,no one showed ANY of my theories to be false.At least up to today.
If it happens I would myself admit that it was wrong and procede to other theories anulating that one.
I am humble enough to do that.
FE, remember, we never have to. You have to prove your theories correct under the burden of proof. Since you can never present sufficient evidence, your theories fail.
i have read some of FE's theorys and most of them made sense now im not going to take sides in this argument but i am just saying that i can see FE's point and i can also see how people dont support it.
and for all the people out there that were confused or didnt understand how adel is stronger than omega i will explain it how i understood it but this might be wrong.
our heroes are stronger than omega, thats why omega gets defeated by you (obviously)
adel is a fusion of all the main heroes (squall, zell, rinoa, etc.). so if only 3 of the main heroes (your party for omega) had the strength to defeat omega then because adel is all 8 (i think it was 8) she would be twice and a bit as powerful as the team that beat omega, and because that team of 3 beat omega, adel (all 8) is stronger.
i think thats it, i dunno if i got it correct and i dunno if thats actually more complicated that Future's explanation, i dunno.
The characters in the game don't themselves have the power to beat omega weapon. They require the use of Guardian Forces to junction magic and to have the abilities to use magic and items and commands (like revive or recover), Without the Gfs and junctioning the party cannot beat Omega Weapon. Therefore the characters themselves are not that powerful and if one tries to conclude that adel has the power of the 8 individuals and only 3 are required to beat omega, it is not valid because the characters require the help of gfs to beat omega.
How could Omega Weapon lose with a name like Omega? C'mon that's like the best name ever.
we can say that because adel has been a monarch and the guy in timber can barly talk to girls you humanQuote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nuke
All part of his ingenious plan, you see.Quote:
Originally Posted by eiko guy
You should read this No_Mercy.Quote:
i have read some of FE's theorys and most of them made sense now im not going to take sides in this argument but i am just saying that i can see FE's point and i can also see how people dont support it.
and for all the people out there that were confused or didnt understand how adel is stronger than omega i will explain it how i understood it but this might be wrong.
our heroes are stronger than omega, thats why omega gets defeated by you (obviously)
adel is a fusion of all the main heroes (squall, zell, rinoa, etc.). so if only 3 of the main heroes (your party for omega) had the strength to defeat omega then because adel is all 8 (i think it was 8) she would be twice and a bit as powerful as the team that beat omega, and because that team of 3 beat omega, adel (all 8) is stronger.
i think thats it, i dunno if i got it correct and i dunno if thats actually more complicated that Future's explanation, i dunno.
__________________
The explanation is excellent by the way.
You can discuss my theories with me through PM if you wanna.
I think itīs kinda possible to beat Omega with limit breaks if you are fast enough.Quote:
The characters in the game don't themselves have the power to beat omega weapon. They require the use of Guardian Forces to junction magic and to have the abilities to use magic and items and commands (like revive or recover), Without the Gfs and junctioning the party cannot beat Omega Weapon. Therefore the characters themselves are not that powerful and if one tries to conclude that adel has the power of the 8 individuals and only 3 are required to beat omega, it is not valid because the characters require the help of gfs to beat omega.
I liked that one.You are the first one to present a good argument to separate a serious theory from a nonsensical sarcastic one created to make fun of the first.Quote:
we can say that because adel has been a monarch and the guy in timber can barly talk to girls you human