The Story of Cloud and Seph...SPOILERS

right well just to start off i would like to say that i dont think i need to put that there are spoilers in this since the game is like 7 years old or sumthin but i didnt wanna get yelled at the mods, so onto the topic

I was looking through some stuff on here the other day and noticed that some people were still confused as to the whole deal of where cloud came from and how seph was doing all that crap when he was stuck in the north crater, so i decide to make this and put down pretty much the entire story for people to read and finally understand, if i mess up or forget somethin please tell me and i will edit it, thanks.


The Beginning - The Cetra traveled the world living in harmony with the planet. Eventually Jenova (an alien) falls from the sky and creates a large crater (the Northern Crater). Jenova starts infecting the Centra with a virus, that turns them into monsters, until the Cetra fight back and seal her away. That is pretty much the end of what was mentioned of the Cetra history.

Hojo and Lucrecia- Hojo was a scientist and so was Lucrecia, they were also lovers. Lucrecia got pregnant with Hojo's baby while Hojo was studing Jenova and so Hojo and Lucrecia agreed to inject the baby (Seph) with Jenova cells while it was still in the womb. The baby is born and Lucrecia dies (maybe) and Seph is raised (unsure where or by whom it never states ingame) and grows up to be a soldier. He is extrodinarily strong, fast, and inteligent because of the Jenova cells that were injected into him so he easily becomes the strongest soldier in the world.

Cloud's beginnings - Cloud was born in Niblehiem and grew up there with Tifa and all that. He felt he was weak and that Tifa would not like him since he was weak so he desired to join Soldier and become strong like his idol Seph. So he leaves Nibleheim and goes to Midgar to join Soldier. Unfortunatly for him he is too weak physically and mentally to join soldier so has to join the regular army (the blue dudes with the funky helmets).

Cloud Nibleheim Mission - Cloud befriends a young Soldier 1st class named Zack while in the military and 2 years after leaving Nibleheim he goes back on a mission with Zack and Seph. They are to inspect the reactor on Mount Nible. When Cloud gets to Nible he is so ashamed that he wasnt strong enough to join Soldier that he hides behind his helmet so that Tifa wont recognize him. When they get to the reactor Seph and Zack discover a bunch of pods with people in them. The pods are filled with mako energy and each person in the tank has had jenova cells injected into them. Seph sees this and freaks out, wondering if he was born in this way. They go back to Nible and Seph locks himself in the basement and reads a bunch of books about Jenova, the Centra, and about how he was born. What he learns sends him over the edge and he goes insane. He burns the village and kills everyone except Zangan (the martial arts dude) and Tifa, then heads back to the reactor. Back at the reactor Tifa tries to take revenge on Seph for her family but instead gets sliced by Seph. Cloud and Zack show up and Zack gets his ass handed to him pretty fast. Cloud helps Tifa then picks up Zacks sword and goes to fight Seph. He wounds him but Seph gets away, almost. As Seph is walking across a bridge over open lifestream, with Jenova's head, Cloud comes up behind him. Seph stabs him, Cloud overpowers Seph and throws Seph off the bridge and into the mako and Cloud collapses.

Aftermath of Seph's rampage - Soon after this happens Hojo shows up and he and his scientists take Cloud and Zack back to the Shinra Mansion in Nible (the only building still standing after the fire) and there do experiments on then to try and create a new Sephiroth. Zangan is able to get Tifa out before Shinra shows up and he takes her to Midgar for medical care. Cloud and Zack are both injected with high levels of Jenova cells(like Seph was before he was born) and kept in tanks filled with mako (like the dudes at the reactor). They were kept there for 5 years before they finally got a chance to escape and did. Cloud was brain dead because his mind and body were not able to cope with the huge amounts of mako exposure and Jenova cells. Zack however came out of it better than ever because he was already an exceptional SOLDIER 1st Class. However during their escape they got to the outskirts of Midgar and Zack was killed by Shinra soldiers and Cloud was left for dead as a failed experiment.

will continue soon gtg.

A few corrections and clarifications.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

The Beginning - The Centra traveled the world looking for "the promise land" which was a place that had a great deal of lifestream energy.

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This is slightly inaccurate. For the Cetra, the Lifestream itself was the Promised Land, as opposed to merely an upwelling of Spirit Energy. This is due to the nature of the Lifestream; it embodies the afterlife, and, perhaps more importantly, the end to and fulfillment of their journey. The words of Elder Hargo in Cosmo Canyon clarify this.

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Elder Hargo: There is no one place called the Promised Land. That is what I believe. No
no, it does exist. Hmmm... You can say that too. In other words, it doesn't
exist for us, but it did for the Ancients. The Promised Land is the resting
place of the Ancients. The life of the Ancients is one continuous journey. A
journey to grow trees and plants, produce animals, and raise mako energy.
Their harsh journeys continued throughout their lives... The place they return
to after their long journey... Their burial land is the Promised Land. Huh?
Supreme happiness? I believe that, for the Ancients, it was the moment that
they were able to return to their planet. At that moment they were released
from their fate, and gained their supreme happiness...

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The Lifestream as a physical location of energy would have embodied the Promised Land from the perspective of the Shinra, as they were interested solely in the material benefits associated with a Mako-rich, materia-laden region.

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Scarlet: Wow!! That's amazing! It's all Materia!!

Rufus: The outside is rich with Mako energy. The inside is a treasure grove of
Materia. This truly is the Promised Land.

---

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

It is a place o Eventually Jenova (an alien) falls from the sky and creates a large crater (the Northern Crater).

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Again, the Promised Land of the Cetra is not the north of the world. It is the embodiment of the abstract notion of what is, to them, "supreme happiness," and is in a sense all the world at once.

JENOVA did fall to the location known in the game as the Northern Crater.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Jenova starts killing off the Centra with a virus until the Centra fight back and seal her away.

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While "killing off" would have the same effect as what actually happened in terms of lowering the Cetra population, JENOVA did not actually bring about the death of the Ancients. Rather, those who encountered "the virus" were transformed into monsters.

From the Icicle Inn tapes...

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Ifalna: I'm all right... When the Cetra... were preparing to part with the
land they loved... That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead
mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past.

Gast: Who is the person that appeared at the North Cave? I haven't any idea.

Ifalna: That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the
sky', as we call him, came. He first approached as a friend, deceived them,
and finally...... gave them the virus. The Cetra were attacked by the virus
and went mad... transforming into monsters. Then, just as he had at the
Knowlespole. He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the
virus...

---

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

After that the Centra, who are severly low in numbers at this point, focus on helping the planet recover from its wound.

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As suggested in the Icicle Inn tapes, the Cera had determined to do what they could to aid the Planet in the brief interval between the scarring of Gaia and the appearance of JENOVA.

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Ifalna: 2000 years ago, our ancestors, the Cetra, heard the cries of the
Planet. The first ones to discover the Planet's wound were the Cetra at
the Knowlespole.

Gast: Tell us Ifalna... Where is the land called 'Knowlespole'?

Ifalna: Knowlespole refers to this area. The Cetra
then began a Planet-reading.

Gast: Ifalna, what exactly does Planet-reading entail?

Ifalna: ...I can't explain it very well, but it's like having a conversation
with the Planet... It said something fell from the sky making a large wound.
Thousands of Cetra pulled together, trying to heal the Planet... But, due to
the severity of the wound, it was only able to heal itself, over many years.

Gast: Do the Ancients, rather, the Cetra, have special powers to heal the
Planet?

Ifalna: No, it's not that kind of power. The life force of all living things
on this Planet becomes the energy. The Cetra tried desperately to cultivate
the land so as not to diminish the needed energy...

Gast: Hmm, even here so close to the North Cave, the snow never melts. Is
that because the planet's energy is gathered here to heal its injury?"

Ifalna: "Yes, the energy that was needed to heal the Planet withered away the
land... then the Planet... The Planet tried to persuade the Cetra to leave the
Knowlespole, but...

Gast: Ifalna... Let's take a break.

Ifalna: I'm all right... When the Cetra... were preparing to part with the
land they loved... That's when it appeared!

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Following the containment of JENOVA, there is no record of the actions of the Cetra. While they certainly would have done everything in their limited capacity to avoid weakening Gaia further, Ifalna acknowledges that even when they possessed greater numbers they had no real way to heal the Planet.

In short, it's difficult to truly appraise the actions of the Cetra between the sealing of JENOVA and the appearance of Ifalna.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Hojo and Lucrecia- Hojo was a scientist and so was Lucrecia, they were also lovers. Lucrecia got pregnant with Hojo's baby while Hojo was studing Jenova and so Hojo and Lucrecia agreed to inject the baby (Seph) with Jenova cells while it was still in the womb. The baby is born and Lucrecia dies and Seph is raised (unsure where or by whom it never states ingame) and grows up to be a soldier.

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Lucrecia does not die; the suggestion is inherently contradictory, because it is her appearance which triggers the flashback where this information is revealed.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash7

Cloud's beginnings - Cloud was born in Niblehiem and grew up there with Tifa and all that. He felt he was weak and that Tifa would not like him since he was weak so he desired to join Soldier and become strong like his idol Seph. So he leaves Nibleheim and goes to Midgar to join Soldier. Unfortunatly for him he is too weak physically and mentally to join soldier so has to join the regular army (the blue dudes with the funky helmets).

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It doesn't make sense to assume that Cloud was unable to enter SOLDIER because of any sort of physical deficiency, given his almost otherworldly combat prowess. There are only two reasonable conclusions as to his failure to enter SOLDIER: that his self-doubt was determined to be to crippling for entry, or that extremely limited exposure to JENOVA cells showed that he would be unable to function properly when fully injected. The second scenario seems more likely to me, given that such injection is an unavoidable element of becoming a member of SOLDIER.

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Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed
to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my
own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more......
I'm going to live my life without pretending.

---

It's worth noting that Cloud himself acknowledges that he is physically built like a member of SOLDIER.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Cloud Nibleheim Mission - Cloud befriends a young Soldier 1st class named Zack while in the military and 5 years after leaving Nibleheim he goes back on a mission with Zack and Seph.

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Actually, Cloud leaves Nibelheim seven years before the events of the game, and returns to his hometown on that fateful mission five years before the events of the game. In short, he had only been absent from Nibelheim for two years at that point.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash7

They are to inspect the reactor on Mount Nible. When Cloud gets to Nible he is so ashamed that he wasnt strong enough to join Soldier that he hides behind his helmet so that Tifa wont recognize him. When they get to the reactor Seph and Zack discover a bunch of pods with people in them. The pods are filled with mako energy and each person in the tank has had jenova cells injected into them.

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They may have had JENOVA cell injections in addition to massive Mako exposure, but it is never explicitly stated.

Quote:

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Cloud: Wh…what is this!?

Sephiroth: Normal members of SOLDIER are humans that have been showered with
Mako. You're different from the others, but still human. But, what are they?
They've been exposed to a high degree of Mako, far more than you.

Cloud: …is this some kind of monster?

Sephiroth: Exactly. And it's Hojo of Shinra that produced these monsters.
Mutated living organisms produced by Mako energy. That's what these monster's
really are.

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It's entirely possible that they had received JENOVA cells, given Hojo's penchant for shooting everything up with them, but there is no indisputable evidence of such.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Zhang (the martial arts dude)

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Zangan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

As Seph is walking across a bridge over open lifestream Cloud comes up behind him. Seph stabs him, Cloud overpowers Seph and throws Seph off the bridge and into the mako.

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There's nothing actually inaccurate here, although Sephiroth actually jumps into the Lifestream in Last Order (I myself have some issues with that retelling). It's worth noting, though, that Sephiroth has the head of JENOVA with him when he plunges into the depths of the reactor.

Thanks for that but i disagree with you on some points.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

Lucrecia does not die; the suggestion is inherently contradictory, because it is her appearance which triggers the flashback where this information is revealed.

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Are you sure? When she appeares to Vincent I didnt think she was really "alive" because you know she kinda disappeares in flashes of light and stuff. Plus were she alive she probably would have raised Seph, but she didnt because he thinks that Jenova is his mother.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

It doesn't make sense to assume that Cloud was unable to enter SOLDIER because of any sort of physical deficiency, given his almost otherworldly combat prowess. There are only two reasonable conclusions as to his failure to enter SOLDIER: that his self-doubt was determined to be to crippling for entry, or that extremely limited exposure to JENOVA cells showed that he would be unable to function properly when fully injected. The second scenario seems more likely to me, given that such injection is an unavoidable element of becoming a member of SOLDIER.

It's worth noting that Cloud himself acknowledges that he is physically built like a member of SOLDIER.

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He doesnt become inhumanly strong until after the Niblheim incident where Hojo injects him with Jenova cells and makes him a Seph clone. I believe that candidates for Soldier must already be extremely strong/athletic before they are allowed to join and Cloud was unable to join because of this. Also they do not inject the people with Jenova cells until after they join Soldier because if they injected it into all the applicants then all of their normal soldiers who failed to get into Soldier would have been drawn to the reunion.

He is physically built like a member of Soldier AFTER the Hojo experiments, not before.

eh...whatever...
it was the part between after sephy falling and zack dying that confused me. thanks for clearing that up.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Are you sure? When she appeares to Vincent I didnt think she was really "alive" because you know she kinda disappeares in flashes of light and stuff. Plus were she alive she probably would have raised Seph, but she didnt because he thinks that Jenova is his mother.

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Lucrecia explicitly states that she is alive, making reference to the fact that she wished to die but couldn't. Vincent also confirms this.

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Vincent: Lucrecia... You're alive...

Lucrecia: I wanted to disappear... I couldn't be with anyone... I wanted to die... But the Jenova inside me wouldn't let me die... Lately, I dream a lot of Sephiroth... My dear, dear child. Ever since he was born I never got to hold him, even once... Not even once. You can't call me his mother... That... is my sin...

---

Obviously, then, Lucrecia survived long beyond Sephiroth's birth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

He doesnt become inhumanly strong until after the Niblheim incident where Hojo injects him with Jenova cells and makes him a Seph clone. I believe that candidates for Soldier must already be extremely strong/athletic before they are allowed to join and Cloud was unable to join because of this. Also they do not inject the people with Jenova cells until after they join Soldier because if they injected it into all the applicants then all of their normal soldiers who failed to get into Soldier would have been drawn to the reunion.

He is physically built like a member of Soldier AFTER the Hojo experiments, not before.

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This view directly contradicts Last Order, where Cloud is shown to have Mako eyes prior to being captured and experimented on by Hojo. Even if you disagree with the "reinterpretations" of Last Order, Cloud was able to hurl Sephiroth into the depths of the reactor, an improbable feat for anyone. Still further, Cloud's combat prowess in FFVII and AC obviously goes far beyond that of any member of SOLDIER; he is even able to defeat Sephiroth, something no one else could dream of doing. If Cloud is able to do this after Mako and JENOVA exposure, while other members of SOLDIER (e.g. Zack) cannot, it implies that his capabilities were also greater prior to SOLDIER treatment. Similarly, SOLDIER:3rds, 2nds, and 1sts are all defeated in-game without difficulty. Further still, Cloud is able to Advent Children Spoilerdefeat Sephiroth after having been cleansed of his Geostigma; this suggests that Cloud's abilities were extraordinary even minus any ostensible benefits derived from JENOVA cells.

The question of Reunion is a pertinent one, but there may have been other means of exposure, or limited degrees of such. This is not addressed by the game, but the Mako eyes in LO certainly imply at least limited exposure to SOLDIER treatment. Given Cloud's natural resistance to the effects of Mako and Spirit Energy, it's a reasonable conclusion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

This view directly contradicts Last Order, where Cloud is shown to have Mako eyes prior to being captured and experimented on by Hojo. Even if you disagree with the "reinterpretations" of Last Order, Cloud was able to hurl Sephiroth into the depths of the reactor, an improbable feat for anyone. Still further, Cloud's combat prowess in FFVII and AC obviously goes far beyond that of any member of SOLDIER; he is even able to defeat Sephiroth, something no one else could dream of doing. If Cloud is able to do this after Mako and JENOVA exposure, while other members of SOLDIER (e.g. Zack) cannot, it implies that his capabilities were also greater prior to SOLDIER treatment. Similarly, SOLDIER:3rds, 2nds, and 1sts are all defeated in-game without difficulty. Further still, Cloud is able to Advent Children Spoilerdefeat Sephiroth after having been cleansed of his Geostigma; this suggests that Cloud's abilities were extraordinary even minus any ostensible benefits derived from JENOVA cells.

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my view on how Cloud was able to defeat Seph at the Nible Reactor was because of his strong feelings of hatred of Sephiroth for destroying everything he cared about thus he sort of became extrodinarily powerful for a brief moment. sort of like a limit break but running off of his emotions instead of the kind of physical abuse that causes the limits

also in most of VII and all of AC we see Cloud after he has had the Sephiroth clone treatment so of course he is going to be way more powerful than the average member of SOLDIER and also i believe the only reason that Zack was killed at the end of Last Order (other than the fact it is an important part of the story) is because he was still somewhat weak from being in a test tube for 5 years, just not to the extent of Cloud because Zack was stronger than Cloud in the first place.

and as for the thing about AC (SPOILER)the geostigma was cured but he was still physically strong because his body was modified by the jenova cells and even without them his body still retains the effect of the cells without actually having them. i see it kind of like steroids, you inject the steroids and get really strong, then you strop taking the steroids but still work out regularly and all that, you probably wont get any stronger but you shouldnt get any weaker either

You're overlooking the critical fact that all members of SOLDIER are Sephiroth Clones, as well as the fact that Sephiroth easily defeated Zack (prior to Zack's captivity).

Moreover, given the nature (always living, even when divided) of JENOVA cells, any advantages and/or disadvantages should have vanished when they were purged. They were irrelevant to Cloud's power, really, as his abilities are essentially the physical embodiment of his extremely strong Spirit Energy.

No Sephiroth clones received stronger doeses of Jenova cells and mako energy than did the normal members of SOLDIER. The Sephiroth clones were the dudes in the tanks at the Nible reactor (among others that came later on i would assume). Normal SOLDIER people only get showered in mako, Seph clones are emersed in mako and kept there for extended periods of time. That is why Zack, a normal SOLDIER, lost to Seph so easily.

i believe that the only thing the Jenova cells did was immediately make Cloud stronger by making his body become stronger and so when the j cells left it didnt matter because even though the j cells had caused his body to become stronger they were not needed to sustain his strength, in other words the j cells had been the catalyst for Cloud's own body to make itself stronger.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

No Sephiroth clones received stronger doeses of Jenova cells and mako energy than did the normal members of SOLDIER. The Sephiroth clones were the dudes in the tanks at the Nible reactor (among others that came later on i would assume). Normal SOLDIER people only get showered in mako, Seph clones are emersed in mako and kept there for extended periods of time. That is why Zack, a normal SOLDIER, lost to Seph so easily.

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A Sephiroth Clone is merely any person who has received JENOVA and Mako treatment. Dosage has nothing to do with it. This is stated by Cloud in-game

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Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed
to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my
own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more......
I'm going to live my life without pretending.

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and has been confirmed elsewhere. In other words, this point literally cannot be argued.

The Sephiroth Clones garbed in black that appeared for much of the game were identified as CLONES in the letter to Hojo in Tifa's room; they were the survivors of the Nibelheim disaster, and were experimented upon by Hojo. Obviously, they exhibited no particular physical prowess. Instead, they were completely dominated by Sephiroth's will. The defining characteristic of a SOLDIER member, really, is the ability to carry JENOVA cells without being profoundly affected. This was the case with Zack, as evidenced in a report in the mansion basement.

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Escape report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

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A refers to Zack, while B refers to Cloud.

Finally, the mutated individuals in the pods were not necessarily Sephiroth Clones at all, as they may or may not have received JENOVA cells. Sephiroth only states that they were exposed to a high amount of Mako. For that matter, as Cloud exhibited no evidence of physical mutation at any point, it's extremely improbable that he was exposed to that degree of Mako.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

i believe that the only thing the Jenova cells did was immediately make Cloud stronger by making his body become stronger and so when the j cells left it didnt matter because even though the j cells had caused his body to become stronger they were not needed to sustain his strength, in other words the j cells had been the catalyst for Cloud's own body to make itself stronger.

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This is unlikely, as Cloud's abilities far exceed anything his physical frame should allow. As already stated, his otherwise impossible gifts are a manifestation of his Spirit Energy. In any case, there is nothing in FFVII, AC, any Compilation item, or any SE dissemination to suggest that your idea is the case.

Yes i know it was the same procedure but the clones had to have been exposed to a greater degree otherwise everyone in SOLDIER would be uber strong like Sephiroth.

Also the black cloaked men were not the survivors of the Nibleheim incident because Seph killed them all. The only survivors were Zack, Cloud, Tifa, and Zangan. Also just because none of the clones showed any enhanced physical abilities is not proof that they did not have them, their minds were wrecked from the Jenova cell's similar to that of Cloud but to a much greater degree. Also they were not under Sephiroth's command they were just following him to the reunion because of the Jenova cells were telling them to.

My proof that the Seph clones had additional Jenova cells and mako radiation treatment compared to the normal SOLDIER units came from you.
Escape report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.
Right there it says that the mako radiation and jenova cells had no affect on Zack which means they must have administered additional treatments other than his normal SOLDIER dose ecause they already would have known that his origional SOLDIER dose had no ill effects on him.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Yes i know it was the same procedure but the clones had to have been exposed to a greater degree otherwise everyone in SOLDIER would be uber strong like Sephiroth.

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You may want to play the game again; the "procedure" which produced Sephiroth was not the same as that applied to Sephiroth Clones. Such Clones are not genetic duplicates of Seph; they merely have been given JENOVA cells, which link them to him.

Sephiroth was injected with JENOVA cells while still in the womb; they merged with his biological material on a fundamental level. As such, Sephiroth is effectively an evolution of JENOVA; he embodies its instinctual goals, while complicating them through his own unique sentience. Sephiroth, in short, is not fully human. In spite of the JENOVA and Mako treatment, Sephiroth Clones are human.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Also the black cloaked men were not the survivors of the Nibleheim incident because Seph killed them all. The only survivors were Zack, Cloud, Tifa, and Zangan.

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Quite frankly, you've missed a key element of the plot. The black garbed figures are the survivors, as is stated in the literature to Hojo in Tifa's room.

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"Periodic Report to Professor Hojo"

1. Clone Activity Report

Unfortunately, no 'CLONES' have left this town this quarter. As previously reported, the 'CLONES' seem to be sensing something. But all they say is 'reunion' or 'Sephiroth' and show no other signs of activity.

2. Confidentiality Report

A total of eight people have visited this town this quarter. Fortunately, none knew about the incident five years ago. Therefore, no one knows the town was restored exactly as it was five years ago. Our staff, disguised as townspeople have improved their acting skills, and we do not report any problems at this time.

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If this is still not enough to convince you, realize that Zangan explicitly states in his letter to Tifa that there were other survivors. Zangan could only rescue Tifa, however; the others were soon after captured by Hojo and used in his experiments.

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Tifa, what's happened to our town? Was it all an illusion, or just a dream?
No, it was neither. I remember trying to get people out of the flames, but not
having the strength... Burning with anger, I went to the reactor to kill
Sephiroth.

But he was nowhere to be found. Instead, I found you, collapsed inside. I felt
saving you was far more important than going after Sephiroth. There were
several others that were still alive inside, but I was only able to save you.

As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just arriving. I recall
a scientist named Hojo was in charge. He ordered the troops to gather up
everyone still alive for the experiment. I didn't know what type of experiment
he was talking about, but I wasn't about to let them have my dearest student.

Putting you on my back, I headed down the mountain to the village. I used the
Cure spell on you many times and started to head for Midgar to look for a
doctor for you. I don't like that city, but my Cure spells weren't helping.

I decided to go to Midgar to find a doctor I could trust. I'm worried about
you, but I can't settle down in one place for very long. Have you recovered
fully? Are you well?

I wonder how many years have passed since then? I just got into town again, but
I can't believe it... The whole town is back to normal, except for the strange
beings with black clothes all around...

The town reeks of Shinra, but I won't go after them. You may think I'm running
from them, but it's just that I don't want anything to do with Shinra anymore.
Feels like time is running out.

I'm sure you'll find this letter. And this gift for you. It should come in
handy. I can't even jump anymore. But I hope you continue to sharpen your
skills and remember what I taught you.

To my most precious student, From Zangan.

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Really, it can't be stated any more clearly than that.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

My proof that the Seph clones had additional Jenova cells and mako radiation treatment compared to the normal SOLDIER units came from you.
Escape report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.
Right there it says that the mako radiation and jenova cells had no affect on Zack which means they must have administered additional treatments other than his normal SOLDIER dose ecause they already would have known that his origional SOLDIER dose had no ill effects on him.

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Again, you're attempting to use something as evidence that doesn't work as you intend. No effect was detected on Zack; as a result, he was fully conscious and able to enact their escape. Judging from LO, his combat abilities certainly weren't affected. Cloud, meanwhile, was affected by the JENOVA application. As a result, he was barely conscious, unable to do anything. If further experimentation had been applied to Zack, it stands to reason that he too would have experienced some sort of debilitating or otherwise deleterious effect. He did not.

Moreover, even had additional experimentation been implimented and had no effect, it undoubtedly would have been duly noted. You fail to realize that both Cloud and Zack were subjects in the Jenova Project; the parentheses in the report indicate that they had not yet been given tattoos (as the survivors of Nibelheim, the CLONES, had received). Further experimentation would have been pointless, as only that which was enacted had any purpose to that project.

I mean no offense, but your arguments simply do not match the canon material of the game, nor do they coincide with any other official SE material.

Once this argument is over, we should probably clean this up a bit, as right now I think it will confuse more people than it helps. It's a fun discussion though. All one big happy family (except that no one is throwing things or cursing yet).

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

You may want to play the game again; the "procedure" which produced Sephiroth was not the same as that applied to Sephiroth Clones. Such Clones are not genetic duplicates of Seph; they merely have been given JENOVA cells, which link them to him.

Sephiroth was injected with JENOVA cells while still in the womb; they merged with his biological material on a fundamental level. As such, Sephiroth is effectively an evolution of JENOVA; he embodies its instinctual goals, while complicating them through his own unique sentience. Sephiroth, in short, is not fully human. In spite of the JENOVA and Mako treatment, Sephiroth Clones are human.

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I disagree somewhat with your description of how the Jenova cells changed Sephiroth. While it is true that they altered him profoundly, and even shaped his development, I don't believe that they caused him to "embody its instinctual goals". Until the event in Nibelheim, Sephiroth's goals were not linked to those of Jenova in any way. Even during that event, it was the falsehoods and lies contained in Dr. Hojo's reports that caused him to react the way he did. I think that Sephiroth's will was too strong to be taken over by the Jenova cells his body contained until that point. Once he went insane due to the information contained in the reports, his will failed and Jenova was able to bend Sephiroth to its will.

I belive that Sephorith was incontrol the entire time of his ideas not JENOVA. He's the smarter being so he should be in control.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Lucrecia got pregnant with Hojo's baby while Hojo was studing Jenova and so Hojo and Lucrecia agreed to inject the baby (Seph) with Jenova cells while it was still in the womb.

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Dude i know how seph was created i was saying that the procedure to create SOLDIERs and Seph clones was similar.


Also the survivors in Zangan's note to Tifa are Zack and Cloud. Sephiroth killed all the townspeople and burnt down the vilage. Zangan said in the note that he tried to save people from the burning buildings but failed.

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

Again, you're attempting to use something as evidence that doesn't work as you intend. No effect was detected on Zack; as a result, he was fully conscious and able to enact their escape. Judging from LO, his combat abilities certainly weren't affected. Cloud, meanwhile, was affected by the JENOVA application. As a result, he was barely conscious, unable to do anything. If further experimentation had been applied to Zack, it stands to reason that he too would have experienced some sort of debilitating or otherwise deleterious effect. He did not.

Moreover, even had additional experimentation been implimented and had no effect, it undoubtedly would have been duly noted. You fail to realize that both Cloud and Zack were subjects in the Jenova Project; the parentheses in the report indicate that they had not yet been given tattoos (as the survivors of Nibelheim, the CLONES, had received). Further experimentation would have been pointless, as only that which was enacted had any purpose to that project.

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You are missing the point entirely Im saying that the Seph clones received larger doses of mako radiation and j cells and as proof the quote that you had about the radiation and j cells having no effect on Zack has to mean that there were additional experiments on him, because he was in SOLDIER so the scientists already knew that the j cells and mako radiation at normal levels had no bad effects on him. besides if they were not going to experiment on him why did they keep Zack alive in a test tube for 5 years?

Also you mention that if Zack had been experimented on additionally then he would have been like Cloud. That is inccorect because we know that Zack was stronger mentally and physically than Cloud was because he was allowed to join SOLDIER in the first place. The fact that Cloud reacted badly to the experiments is no suprise because he would not even let him in SOLDIER which would have given him a much smalled dose of radiation and j cells. I think you are failing to realize that both Zack and Cloud are part of the Jenova project because that fact alone proves the fact that additional experimentation must have been done on Zack. Also in a side note, Hojo considered Zack and Cloud both failures so they were never going to get numbers and I dont really know why they were kept alive.

Lastly i didnt have time to put this in my last post (was at school and had to leave class) but on when Cloud defeats Seph at the Reactor you kept talking about his "Spirit Energy" and i dont know what the hell your talkin about with that. So if you could explain what you mean by that it would help.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Dude i know how seph was created i was saying that the procedure to create SOLDIERs and Seph clones was similar.

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No--not similar; the process is identical. SOLDIERs are Sephiroth Clones.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Also the survivors in Zangan's note to Tifa are Zack and Cloud. Sephiroth killed all the townspeople and burnt down the vilage. Zangan said in the note that he tried to save people from the burning buildings but failed.

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You're just grasping at this point. The Periodic Report to Hojo clearly states that his experimental subjects had not left Nibelheim at the time of the document's composition; their proximity to Nibelheim implies that they were taken from the general vicinity. Moreover, it would have been simple for Zangan to drag someone to safety, but it was his responsibility to take Tifa far from Nibelheim. "Not saving them" refers to failing to save them from Hojo.

Further still, Hojo acknowledges several times during the game that he had created a project dedicated to proving the Jenova Reunion Theory. Hojo makes specific reference to the CLONES at these times; these are the survivors he gathered after the disaster.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

You are missing the point entirely Im saying that the Seph clones received larger doses of mako radiation and j cells and as proof the quote that you had about the radiation and j cells having no effect on Zack has to mean that there were additional experiments on him, because he was in SOLDIER so the scientists already knew that the j cells and mako radiation at normal levels had no bad effects on him. besides if they were not going to experiment on him why did they keep Zack alive in a test tube for 5 years?

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Zack was a subject in Hojo's further research into the Jenova Project. As such a subject, he was given JENOVA cell injections, which had no effect upon him. Whether or not this was anticipated, it was obvious he was treated in such a manner, given that the Escapee Report explicitly states this. Had additional experimentation been performed on Zack, the report would have noted this. Your misconception regarding JENOVA cell dosage has already been deconstructed, and I'm not going to waste my time doing so again.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Also you mention that if Zack had been experimented on additionally then he would have been like Cloud. That is inccorect because we know that Zack was stronger mentally and physically than Cloud was because he was allowed to join SOLDIER in the first place.

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As already noted, this is not necessarily the case, although his self-confidence may have granted him the mental fortitude necessary to resist the intrusions of the JENOVA cells. However, while the JENOVA cell and Mako exposure did not affect him, your previous argument implies that further experimentation would have such an effect. Hence, you contradict yourself. Even if this is not what you meant, this mysterious additional experimentation would not have taken place.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

The fact that Cloud reacted badly to the experiments is no suprise because he would not even let him in SOLDIER which would have given him a much smalled dose of radiation and j cells.

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Which was my theory, not yours. I'll take this as a concession.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

I think you are failing to realize that both Zack and Cloud are part of the Jenova project because that fact alone proves the fact that additional experimentation must have been done on Zack.

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This statement is patently absurd. Why would the Jenova Project require any experimentation beyond JENOVA cell exposure and Mako infusion? And, again, why would any further experimentation go undocumented? Why would this phantom experimentation have no effect on Zack, when the only apparent reason to perform it would be to do something that does have an effect? Why is there no reference to this in the game, or in Last Order?

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Also in a side note, Hojo considered Zack and Cloud both failures so they were never going to get numbers and I dont really know why they were kept alive.

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Allow me to answer this for you. First, realize that they escaped. Given that research was still apparently ongoing, final determination of who constituted failed and successful Sephiroth Clones had not yet taken place.

Second, Cloud was not a failed Clone (unlike Zack). In fact, Cloud was the only successful Clone, as he effectively proved the Jenova Reunion Theory. In the context of this discussion, proving said theory constitutes success.

This raises the question of why Hojo viewed Cloud as a failure. The answer is that Cloud convinced Hojo of such. When the party headed through the Whirlwind Maze, Sephiroth continually screwed with Cloud's mind, playing off of Cloud's false memories, and ultimately succeeding in convincing Cloud that he wasn't human at all--merely a construct of living JENOVA cells.

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Sephiroth: Oh, is that so? You are just a puppet... You have no heart... and
cannot feel any pain... How can there be any meaning in the memory of such a
being? What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, this is the
illusion. ...Do you understand?

Cloud: I don't want to understand. But, I want to ask you one thing. Why... why
are you doing this?

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... I want to take you back to your real self. The one
who gave me the Black Materia that day... Who would have ever thought a failed
experiment would prove so useful? Hojo would die if he knew.

Cloud: Hojo!? What does he have to do with me!?

Sephiroth: Five years ago you were... ...constructed by Hojo, piece by piece,
right after Nibelheim was burnt. A puppet made up of vibrant Jenova cells, her
knowledge, and the power of the Mako. An incomplete Sephiroth-clone. Not even
given a number. ...That is your reality. Ha, ha, ha......

---

Soon after...

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Cloud: Everyone, thanks for everything. And... I'm sorry. (to Rufus and folks)
...Sorry. (to his group) ...Sorry. (to Tifa) Especially you, Tifa. I'm really
sorry. You've been so good to me...... I don't know what to say... I never
lived up to being 'Cloud'. Tifa...... Maybe one day you'll meet the real
'Cloud'.

Hojo: Ha, ha, ha... this is perfect!!! It means that my experiment was a
complete success. What number were you? Huh? Where is your tattoo?

Cloud: Professor Hojo... I don't have a number. You didn't give me one because
you said I was a failed experiment.

Hojo: What the--? You mean only a failure made it here?

Cloud: Professor... please give me a number. Please, Professor...

Hojo: Shut up, miserable failure...

---

Hojo is elated that his experiment is a success, only viewing Cloud as a failed Clone after Cloud attaches that label to himself. This, again, reflects back to Sephiroth's statements; Seph had convinced Cloud of something that wasn't even remotely true.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Lastly i didnt have time to put this in my last post (was at school and had to leave class) but on when Cloud defeats Seph at the Reactor you kept talking about his "Spirit Energy" and i dont know what the hell your talkin about with that. So if you could explain what you mean by that it would help.

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This is effectively FFVII mythology derived from analysis of both the game and Advent Children. All humans, all lifeforms in fact, are endowed with Spirit Energy, FFVII's equivalent of the soul.

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Bugenhagen: Ho Ho Hoooo. Yes, it is something, isn't it? Well, let's get to the
subject. Eventually... all humans die. What happens to them after they die? The
body decomposes, and returns to the Planet. That much everyone knows. What
about their consciousness, their hearts and their souls? The soul too returns
to the Planet. And not only those of humans, but everything on this Planet. In
fact, all living things in the universe, are the same. The spirits that return
to the Planet, merge with one another and roam the Planet. They roam, converge,
and divide, becoming a swell, called the 'Lifestream'. Lifestream... In other
words, a path of energy of the souls roaming the Planet. 'Spirit Energy' is a
word that you should never forget. A new life... children are blessed with
Spirit energy and are brought into the world. Then, the time comes when they
die and once again return to the Planet... Of course there are exceptions, but
this is the way of the world. I've digressed, but you'll understand better if
you watch this.

---

Spirit Energy, of course, is the stuff of the Lifestream; it is the very essence of the Planet. It embodies a certain power, of course; this is at the heart of Sephiroth's plan in the game. By absorbing the power of the Lifestream; he enacts an artificial apotheosis of sorts; in other words, he becomes a god.

Cloud's abilities in Advent Children go far beyond anything that should be humanly possible. No one in real life could possibly jump hundreds of feet at a time, or block bullets, or perform Limit Breaks. Something, then, is behind his (and the other party members') otherworldly gifts. That something is Spirit Energy; their abilities are derived from the power of the Planet.

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

No--not similar; the process is identical. SOLDIERs are Sephiroth Clones.

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No if every member of SOLDIER were a Seph clone then they would have all been at the reunion. The only Seph clones are the Black Cloaked men, Cloud, and Zack.

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

You're just grasping at this point. The Periodic Report to Hojo clearly states that his experimental subjects had not left Nibelheim at the time of the document's composition; their proximity to Nibelheim implies that they were taken from the general vicinity. Moreover, it would have been simple for Zangan to drag someone to safety, but it was his responsibility to take Tifa far from Nibelheim. "Not saving them" refers to failing to save them from Hojo.

Further still, Hojo acknowledges several times during the game that he had created a project dedicated to proving the Jenova Reunion Theory. Hojo makes specific reference to the CLONES at these times; these are the survivors he gathered after the disaster.

---

Zangan said

Quote:

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I remember trying to get people out of the flames, but not having the strength

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that means that he left them in the flames which means they burned to death. They all died, give it up.

Also you must be forgetting that the clones are everywhere and so they being in Nibleheim is not that big a deal. There was one at the Temple of the Ancients too, does that mean Hojo captured someone there and turned him into a clone. It doesnt make sense to say that just because the clones happen to be in that place that they origionally came from there, ecspecially when i have proved that everyone died.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

Zack was a subject in Hojo's further research into the Jenova Project. As such a subject, he was given JENOVA cell injections, which had no effect upon him. Whether or not this was anticipated, it was obvious he was treated in such a manner, given that the Escapee Report explicitly states this. Had additional experimentation been performed on Zack, the report would have noted this. Your misconception regarding JENOVA cell dosage has already been deconstructed, and I'm not going to waste my time doing so again.

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That is sort of what I am saying. I said that Zack was given J cells and mako treatments as part of the Jenova project. You agree to this and you also agree that normal SOLDIER members also get injected with j cells. So how can you say that Zack did not receive more j cells and mako radiation than the average member of SOLDIER?

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

As already noted, this is not necessarily the case, although his self-confidence may have granted him the mental fortitude necessary to resist the intrusions of the JENOVA cells. However, while the JENOVA cell and Mako exposure did not affect him, your previous argument implies that further experimentation would have such an effect. Hence, you contradict yourself. Even if this is not what you meant, this mysterious additional experimentation would not have taken place.

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I never said that additional treatments of j cells would cause Zack to react the way Cloud did. In fact I said the exact opposite, I said that since Zack was strong enough to enter SOLDIER and take the initial dose of j cells and mako so it stands to reason that he would be able to take the second dose also. Also you already stated above that as Zack was part of the JENOVA project he did in fact get additional j cells and mako exposure added to what he got from being a normal SOLDIER.

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

Which was my theory, not yours. I'll take this as a concession.

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Your theory? You never said that. Its a simple thing to understand and doesnt conceed to you anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

This statement is patently absurd. Why would the Jenova Project require any experimentation beyond JENOVA cell exposure and Mako infusion? And, again, why would any further experimentation go undocumented? Why would this phantom experimentation have no effect on Zack, when the only apparent reason to perform it would be to do something that does have an effect? Why is there no reference to this in the game, or in Last Order?

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The additional experimentation was just the additional j cells and mako exposure that Zack received as part of the JENOVA PROJECT not some kind of other secret experiment, sorry for the mix up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

Allow me to answer this for you. First, realize that they escaped. Given that research was still apparently ongoing, final determination of who constituted failed and successful Sephiroth Clones had not yet taken place.

Second, Cloud was not a failed Clone (unlike Zack). In fact, Cloud was the only successful Clone, as he effectively proved the Jenova Reunion Theory. In the context of this discussion, proving said theory constitutes success.

This raises the question of why Hojo viewed Cloud as a failure. The answer is that Cloud convinced Hojo of such. When the party headed through the Whirlwind Maze, Sephiroth continually screwed with Cloud's mind, playing off of Cloud's false memories, and ultimately succeeding in convincing Cloud that he wasn't human at all--merely a construct of living JENOVA cells.

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Yes i know they escaped but the time between their escape and when you see the first Seph clone in black is a very short period of time. So that means that Hojo had probably already decided who was a failure and who was a success.

Also they were both failures. Zack was a failure because he was able to comepletly resist the will of the reunion. Cloud was a failure because he was overwhelmed by it all and so became mentally dead, as seen in LO. If Cloud was unable to move or think then he was also useless to Hojo. Cloud did prove to be a success though since after his escape he did regain his motor functions and was then able to follow the call to the reuinion. Also Cloud was not the only success, other Seph clones made it to the North Crater but Seph killed then and so Hojo never saw them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masamune·1600

Spirit Energy, of course, is the stuff of the Lifestream; it is the very essence of the Planet. It embodies a certain power, of course; this is at the heart of Sephiroth's plan in the game. By absorbing the power of the Lifestream; he enacts an artificial apotheosis of sorts; in other words, he becomes a god.

Cloud's abilities in Advent Children go far beyond anything that should be humanly possible. No one in real life could possibly jump hundreds of feet at a time, or block bullets, or perform Limit Breaks. Something, then, is behind his (and the other party members') otherworldly gifts. That something is Spirit Energy; their abilities are derived from the power of the Planet.

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Dude you are trying to read too far into this. The reason they can do all of that stuff is simply because it is not the real world. I mean how would Cloud having a large amount of spirit energy allow him to leap in the air and call down a bunch of small asteroids? The limits, dodging bullets, and huge jumps are just things that keep people interested and are not caused by increased spirit energy. You know what you told me about my theory on how Cloud defeated Seph in the Nible reactor also applies to your theory. There is no reference in the game or other source that would indicate that Cloud and company have an increased amount of spirit energy than does everyone else and further nowhere does it say that an increased level of spirit would endow any special abilities anywhay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

No if every member of SOLDIER were a Seph clone then they would have all been at the reunion. The only Seph clones are the Black Cloaked men, Cloud, and Zack.

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Again, you've overlooked evidence within the game. The entire point is that SOLDIER members can generally resist the effects of JENOVA cells. Even they can be slightly affected, but it's controllable. The critical example is the SOLDIER-turned-shopkeeper in Junon, who states that he has an inexplicable desire to wear black. Obviously, though, he is not nearly so affected as the CLONES.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Zangan said

that means that he left them in the flames which means they burned to death. They all died, give it up.

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This is not the case; the letter clarifies the matter further down. Moreover, LO makes it clear that there were other survivors. Most critically, however, you still fail to acknowledge that the black-garbed figures must have been taken from somewhere; if the project derives it source from the survivors, and the CLONES are part of the project, then the survivors extend beyond Cloud and Zack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Also you must be forgetting that the clones are everywhere and so they being in Nibleheim is not that big a deal. There was one at the Temple of the Ancients too, does that mean Hojo captured someone there and turned him into a clone. It doesnt make sense to say that just because the clones happen to be in that place that they origionally came from there, ecspecially when i have proved that everyone died.

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Your statement assumes that the CLONES seen elsewhere are not those encountered in Nibelheim. I suggest you return to that town, where the CLONES have "mysteriously" vanished. Needless to say, they followed Sephiroth; this is directly stated. In other words, the CLONES found at the Temple of the Ancients and the Whirlwind Maze were the same CLONES that originally were scattered throughout Nibelheim.

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

That is sort of what I am saying. I said that Zack was given J cells and mako treatments as part of the Jenova project. You agree to this and you also agree that normal SOLDIER members also get injected with j cells. So how can you say that Zack did not receive more j cells and mako radiation than the average member of SOLDIER?

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Yet you argue that Zack was weaker after his confinement. This is not the case, but neither is it the case that the experimentation really enhanced him in any way. His abilities are effectively the same both before and after his captivity in LO. There's no evidence that increased exposure does anything to enhance abilities--in any case, said exposure was probably somewhat limited, given that the Mako infusion was not sufficient to induce mutation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Your theory? You never said that. Its a simple thing to understand and doesnt conceed to you anything.

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From my original post:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masamune

It doesn't make sense to assume that Cloud was unable to enter SOLDIER because of any sort of physical deficiency, given his almost otherworldly combat prowess. There are only two reasonable conclusions as to his failure to enter SOLDIER: that his self-doubt was determined to be to crippling for entry, or that extremely limited exposure to JENOVA cells showed that he would be unable to function properly when fully injected. The second scenario seems more likely to me, given that such injection is an unavoidable element of becoming a member of SOLDIER.

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From your reply in the next post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07, actually

He doesnt become inhumanly strong until after the Niblheim incident where Hojo injects him with Jenova cells and makes him a Seph clone. I believe that candidates for Soldier must already be extremely strong/athletic before they are allowed to join and Cloud was unable to join because of this. Also they do not inject the people with Jenova cells until after they join Soldier because if they injected it into all the applicants then all of their normal soldiers who failed to get into Soldier would have been drawn to the reunion.

He is physically built like a member of Soldier AFTER the Hojo experiments, not before.

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Your concession, whereby you abandon your previous stance and attempt to adopt mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

The fact that Cloud reacted badly to the experiments is no suprise because he would not even let him in SOLDIER which would have given him a much smalled dose of radiation and j cells.

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In an ongoing debate, one can be held accountable for previous posts. This is the case here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

The additional experimentation was just the additional j cells and mako exposure that Zack received as part of the JENOVA PROJECT not some kind of other secret experiment, sorry for the mix up.

---

Alright.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Yes i know they escaped but the time between their escape and when you see the first Seph clone in black is a very short period of time. So that means that Hojo had probably already decided who was a failure and who was a success.

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They had not yet been given tattoos, hence their role in the Project was not yet complete. Moreover, it was impossible to know which, if any, Clones would fail. That was the whole point of allowing their migration toward Sephiroth and the head of JENOVA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Also they were both failures. Zack was a failure because he was able to comepletly resist the will of the reunion. Cloud was a failure because he was overwhelmed by it all and so became mentally dead, as seen in LO. If Cloud was unable to move or think then he was also useless to Hojo. Cloud did prove to be a success though since after his escape he did regain his motor functions and was then able to follow the call to the reuinion. Also Cloud was not the only success, other Seph clones made it to the North Crater but Seph killed then and so Hojo never saw them.

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You fail to understand what happened. Please review my previous post. The definition of a successful Sephiroth Clone is one who could fully reach the original Sephiroth, encased in materia after the Maze. Cloud was able to accomplish this; as a result, the veracity of the Jenova Reunion Project was demonstrated. Hojo specifically designated his hypothesis as a success, only becoming upset after Cloud mistakenly referred to himself as a failure. Again, he did so only because of the manipulations of Sephiroth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnislash07

Dude you are trying to read too far into this. The reason they can do all of that stuff is simply because it is not the real world. I mean how would Cloud having a large amount of spirit energy allow him to leap in the air and call down a bunch of small asteroids? The limits, dodging bullets, and huge jumps are just things that keep people interested and are not caused by increased spirit energy. You know what you told me about my theory on how Cloud defeated Seph in the Nible reactor also applies to your theory. There is no reference in the game or other source that would indicate that Cloud and company have an increased amount of spirit energy than does everyone else and further nowhere does it say that an increased level of spirit would endow any special abilities anywhay.

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While my proposal involves a small degree of analysis, there are indications in the original game. You've ignored the fact that assimilating a vast amount of Spirit Energy would in effect make Sephiroth a god; more importantly, you've ignored that strong Spirit Energy is necessary to enact the more profound powers of the game.

Quote:

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Cloud: Mmm? Can you guys use it [the Black Materia]?

Aeris: Nope, we can't use it right now. You need great spiritual power to use
it.

Cloud: You mean lots of Spiritual energy?

Aerithsial.
Where there's plenty of the Planet's energy... Oh yeah! The Promised Land!!

Cloud: The Promised Land!! No, but...

Aeris: Sephiroth is different. He's not an Ancient.

Cloud: He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land.

Sephiroth: ...Ah, but I have. I'm far superior to the Ancients. I became a
traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.
And soon, I will create the future.

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Not only is it explicitly stated that strong spiritual power is necessary to use the Black Materia, Sephiroth implies that his journey through the Lifestream made him more powerful.

Moreover, you make an argument for...nothing, the absence of explanation. Given that the creators of AC have publicly stated that the story, not the battles, were developed first, wouldn't it seem strange if the battles created a plot hole, particularly in a film with a relatively brief plot? Why, for example, are the party members capable of such feats, when the regular citizens of Edge are easily overcome by Shadow Creepers? These details have no bearing on the greater story, but are easily answered simply by analyzing the FFVII mythos on its most basic level.

This thread seems to have deviated from its intended course, which was to explain certain elements of the story of FFVII. Please realize that your arguments are based on your opinions. Until you're willing to analyze the game more closely, it's unreasonable to expect to grasp some of its nuances. For the sake of anyone who would like clarification on the story, realize that continuing to argue with me is detrimental to those individuals.

Not to add a lot to this, because Masamune has it covered, but Omnislash, try going to Nibelhiem and speaking with the black cloaked figures. Their placement and mannerisms mirror the people who had lived in Nibelhiem before the fire. Most especially the two children... the black cloaked figures act exactly as those children had; the younger mirroring the words of the older. They are the survivors, after being experimented on by Hojo.

so is the sephy you see in the north crater (one that is solidified in the materia..and who recieves the black materia from cloud) the same sephy that cloud defeated and fell into the life stream? and if so is the sephy we see at the begineing of the game and follow from twn to twn, mealy a clone as well. sorry i just need this cleared up in my mind.. i got everything else sorted lol. cheerz

okay, this is confusing, but anyways, i have one question. how is sephiroth in the north crater, running around the world, and in the lifestream at the same time? is the real sephiroth in the north crater, or in the lifestream? and is the one running around just an illusion, or a clone?

The Sephiroth the party chases throughout the game is not a clone, because the clones do not look anything like Sephiroth. The person the party chases is Jenova, assuming Sephiroth's form. That's why everytime you catch up to Seph, you fight a piece of Jenova.

o i get it thanks alot m8. so how did the sephiroth manage to get into the north crater wen he was struck down into the lifestream? thnks alot

Sephiroth floated through the lifestream and washed up as it were at the northern crater where spirit energy collects to repair the damage done by Jenova. Since materia is condensed mako energy (lifestream) it's clear that he had to have been immersed in the mako energy to be surrounded by materia so he had to have been in the lifestream.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by starseeker

Sephiroth floated through the lifestream and washed up as it were at the northern crater where spirit energy collects to repair the damage done by Jenova. Since materia is condensed mako energy (lifestream) it's clear that he had to have been immersed in the mako energy to be surrounded by materia so he had to have been in the lifestream.

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Actually, the Lifestream is comprised of Spirit Energy, which is not exactly the same as Mako. Mako Energy is compressed and processed Spirit Energy...

Quote:

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Bugenhagen: Everyday Mako reactors suck up Spirit energy, diminishing it.
Spirit energy gets compressed in the reactors and processed into Mako energy.
All living things are being used up and thrown away. In other words, Mako
energy will only destroy the Planet...

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...and seems to have certain mutagenic properties not inherent to Spirit Energy. Having said that, Spirit Energy can naturally condense all the way to materia (Mako condensed to a crystal form), as was the case at the Northern Crater, the materia fountain at Nibel, and the materia caves (for Mime, Quadra Magic, HP<->MP, and Knights of the Round) throughout the game.

As you mention, Sephiroth indeed traveled through the Lifestream, as the Nibel Reactor depths into which he plummeted would have certainly needed to link to a source of Spirit Energy. In fact, Sephiroth attests to his journey through the Lifestream.

Quote:

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Cloud: He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land.

Sephiroth: ...Ah, but I have. I'm far superior to the Ancients. I became a
traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.
And soon, I will create the future.

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thnks starseeker that helps loads.

oh ok, so sephiroth was at the north crater the whole time and it was jenova that took form of sephiroth and cause havoc...right?

thanks

Physically, yes, although Sephiroth's will could be exercised through the "Sephiroth form."

Sorry for not posting for a while but i had other things more important to do. Anyway I've decided to stop posting on here because A) I really dont feel like arguing about it and B) I havent played the game in a year and dont feel like playing it again right now to refresh all the small details. So if one of you guys feels like posting the story thing go ahead but im not going to continue mine or post anymore.

This topic was very imformative though and the best example of a debate I've seen in a while. I now know about the details of the game better thanks to you two (omnislash & masamune)