And I had such an inocent image of her.

There is something fishy about the plan to defeat Ulti.
Let´s see:
1-Ulti send her consciousness inside Rinoa(looks familiar?).
2-Ellone send Ulti and Rinoa to the past AT A DISTANCE.
3-She can perform her ability on everyone as long as she send them to someone she meet on the past.

Think a little.

Was Garden and Seed really necessary?What a waste of time and energy.
I understand Laguna´s role since Ellone was a children and don´t know about her ability.
But Seed?

It´s funny how the game treats Elle as an unarmed girl who has to be protected.

But I would not want to have Ellone as an enemy if I were Ulti.

Ulti(inside Edea)-"There you are.Come to mama."
Ellone-"Hieeeelp miiii!"
Edea aproaches Elle with a Galbadian soldier.
"You are in a dead end and I can perform magic that can take you 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999HP.You don´t wanna to take that hurt,do you?
And I just used an invencibility magic.And I have 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999HP"
"I only have 1 HP and have no magic nor limit breaks.Please don´t kill me,I beg you",Ellone cries.
Squall and friends appear.
"Let her go,Edea.It´s with us you have to deal now"
Elle-"Siaviiiiiii miiiiiiiiiiii"

The characters try to beat Edea but they allways take 0 HP.
All characters are at level 99,had all items,all magic,all cards,had 9999HP,all Gfs with all abilities learned,all limit breaks and the best strategy.
The characters get defeated.
Elle-"Aaaaaaahhhhh(Yes,approach more you bitch!)"
Ulti approaches to grap Elle and suddenly start to feel sleepy.
Elle-"Ah,Ah,I had been kidding.Take that you bitch!"
Suddenly she realizes she was on the desert prison receiving electrical discharges.
Seifer-"What is the meaning of Seed?Edea demands to know".
Ulti-(Aaaaaargh,I hate myself so much.Take me back,please!)
Elle-"What did you said?I can´t hear you"
She takes Ulti some minutes to the past experiencing the same discharges in an endless loop.
Meanwhile Revive magic is used on the characters.
THE END.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[leeza]*snip*

Post on topic, or do NOT post at all. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

Don´t misunderstood me.This was a fan fiction story I told to give an example.

You're trying to say that Ellone was the key character to defeat Ultimecia, and the SeeDs were only pawns on this game?

It will also imply that the Garden and SeeDs were also a backup plan if something went wrong…

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Originally Posted by soul_hunter

You're trying to say that Ellone was the key character to defeat Ultimecia, and the SeeDs were only pawns on this game?

It will also imply that the Garden and SeeDs were also a backup plan if something went wrong…

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Yeah,it could be possible.

Ellone sends Ultimecia back, but I don't think she can keep her there forever. Remember on the escape pod Ellone collapsed when she was trying to help Squall save Rinoa? She'd have to give up to stress eventually and Ultimecia would be back, the only real way to get rid of her was to send the SeeDs to the future. Both Ellone and SeeD were important parts to the process of saving their world.

[leeza]*snip*

Post on topic, or do NOT post at all. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Was Garden and Seed really necessary?What a waste of time and energy.
I understand Laguna´s role since Ellone was a children and don´t know about her ability.
But Seed?

It´s funny how the game treats Elle as an unarmed girl who has to be protected.

But I would not want to have Ellone as an enemy if I were Ulti.

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I disagree. :nonono: Let's break the whole thing down:

~ Squall is the one who really started SeeD.

~ The White SeeDs were created to protect Ellone. Now I know you don't think Ellone needed protecting, but remember how Ultimecia was looking for her? Ellone can only use her ability on people she has met before. That's why they needed Rinoa for the plan. Ellone would be helpless against Ultimecia, thus needing protection from the White SeeDs.

~ Squall knows this, and tells Edea about SeeD, who will protect Ellone in the future. SeeD's main purpose may be to defeat the sorceress BUT that's not only what they do. (Dollet mission, Timber...) So obviously they're NOT a waste.

~ Ultimately, the REAL defeater of Ultimecia is a sorceress. Edea to be exact. Edea's powers went to Rinoa, who Ellone brought to the future with Ultimecia. Without Edea, Ultimecia would have never pocessed Rinoa to let Adel free, and yeah...there pretty much wouldn't be a plan after that. So Ellone ISN'T the main reason of Ultimecia's defeat.

Damn Time Loop.

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Ellone sends Ultimecia back, but I don't think she can keep her there forever. Remember on the escape pod Ellone collapsed when she was trying to help Squall save Rinoa? She'd have to give up to stress eventually and Ultimecia would be back, the only real way to get rid of her was to send the SeeDs to the future. Both Ellone and SeeD were important parts to the process of saving their world.

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1-Time is set in stone
2-If someone dies on the past the sent person takes the damage and also dies.
3-I am sure Ellone meet on the past someone who dies before the present day(Raine).

That´s it.Ellone send Ulti inside Raine.The end.

No need for stupid warmonger Seeds.

Ellone is protecting SeeD(including Ulti).Not the opposite.

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The White SeeDs were created to protect Ellone. Now I know you don't think Ellone needed protecting, but remember how Ultimecia was looking for her? Ellone can only use her ability on people she has met before. That's why they needed Rinoa for the plan. Ellone would be helpless against Ultimecia, thus needing protection from the White SeeDs.

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But she meet Edea,don´t she(why the hell do I ask if the situation was familiar?)?

Really,today I understand why the plan to destroy the machine would not work.Even if it was destructed someone would manage to construct it again.

But on this case is different because Elle only needs to send Ulti inside a person she met on the past who dies.

Actually, where does it state that if you kill someone who has a viewer inside, they die? If you want to use Squall in Laguna as an example, think again and consider the paradox involved.

And Ellone doesn't send Ultimecia to a person in past that dies, the game says that Ellone needs to send both Rinoa and Ultimecia to a Sorceress in past to make Time compression possible (if my memory is right)

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God damn, nearly every thread in this forum is a theory thread! Stop the headaches!

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Nearly all are FE fault :)

[leeza]*snip*

Post on topic, or do NOT post at all. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

[leeza]*snip*

Post on topic, or do NOT post at all. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

Those people complaining about theory threads are contributing nothing to the topic. You don't have to participate if you don't want to :greenie:

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Actually, where does it state that if you kill someone who has a viewer inside, they die? If you want to use Squall in Laguna as an example, think again and consider the paradox involved.

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Now matter how weird that sounds that´s what happens.
We SEE the characters taking the damage back.
PS:Maybe it was a proof that time is not set in stone?

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And Ellone doesn't send Ultimecia to a person in past that dies, the game says that Ellone needs to send both Rinoa and Ultimecia to a Sorceress in past to make Time compression possible (if my memory is right)

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I don´t said that.
I said that Elone can easily send Ulti to the past inside a person who dies before the present day WHEN SHE MEETS EDEA.

That way Seed´s creation is not necessary anymore.
I am not only talking in the Pandora.
I am talking everytime Edea looks for Elle and find her.

If you think a little what makes sense is Edea trying to scape from Elle after Elle knows she is doing evil things(not the opposite).

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Now matter how weird that sounds that´s what happens.
We SEE the characters taking the damage back.

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I seem to remember that if you let Laguna be K.O'd in the dream sequences, yoiu'll find that Squall is KO'd whe you get back to the real world. I may be wrong, but is that what you are referring to?

Oh, and can someone else besides Future confirm or dispute that =P

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PS:Maybe it was a proof that time is not set in stone?

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No, it was not.

This theory is wrong FE.

1. You said something about the Junction Machine Ellone up there, but I don't understand you (alot of the time) and the reason they don't destroy the machine is not because someone will re build it but because they don't know where it is, and they can't stop Odine from building it because his ego would get in the way and he'd do it anyway. They couldn't really kill Odine either, since he really isn't doing anything wrong when you think about it.

2. When someone is sent into the past and the person they're sent into dies, they don't suffer the same fate. I can back this up because on the Escape Pod, Ellone says herself that "I guess it's not possible to change the future" or something like that, and if someone was sent back into the past and their vessel died they would die also which means the future would be changed, which is impossible.
I can back this up secondly because when Squall and Co. are sent into Laguna and Co.'s past they aren't controlling them, they're watching. We, the Player, are controlling Laguna, but we aren't an aspect in game so what Squall and Co. see is really jsut the past being played out like a movie, they can't change it.
Also, all that is sent into the past by Ellone is someone's consciousness (sp) and that doesn't really get killed physically.
Final proof for this point is that when Squall is in the past he doesn't feel Laguna's leg cramping, he can't change what Laguna is saying, he has no control...this is weak proof but it helps proove my point about dying in the past. (The reason Squall comes back KOd when Laguna is KOd in the past is merely a gameplay aspect, not a story aspect).

3. As I stated above (and you ignored, FE) Ellone cannot send someone into the past forever, she'd lose control to stress and exauhstion eventually just like she did on the Escape Pod when she was trying to save Rinoa (remember how she collapsed?)

So, after reading all this we see that SeeD are very important, if not the most important part of the plan. Why? Because all Ellone is doing is allowing Ultimecia to achieve her goal of time compression by sending her further back in time to do whatever she is she does to start the compression, the SeeDs are actually getting rid of her when they travel to the future.

In reality they could ruin Ultimecia's plans in a much simpler, more bloodsoaked way. There are two people that Ultimecia needs to achieve her goal, Ellone and Odine. Odine builds Junction Machine Ellone, which Ultimecia uses to come back, possess Rinoa and then be sent back further by Ellone. So the SeeDs could kill Ellone+Odine and Ultimecia's plans would be ruined because she'd have no way of travelling time. but because the SeeDs would never resort to such an act, they must go to the future and kill Ultimecia, proving them to be really very important to the plan.

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Originally Posted by Shin Omega

Those people complaining about theory threads are contributing nothing to the topic. You don't have to participate if you don't want to :greenie:

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Exactly and I will also go further as to start handing out warnings to everyone who posts to complain or post anything off-topic.

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2. When someone is sent into the past and the person they're sent into dies, they don't suffer the same fate. I can back this up because on the Escape Pod, Ellone says herself that "I guess it's not possible to change the future" or something like that, and if someone was sent back into the past and their vessel died they would die also which means the future would be changed, which is impossible.
I can back this up secondly because when Squall and Co. are sent into Laguna and Co.'s past they aren't controlling them, they're watching. We, the Player, are controlling Laguna, but we aren't an aspect in game so what Squall and Co. see is really jsut the past being played out like a movie, they can't change it.
Also, all that is sent into the past by Ellone is someone's consciousness (sp) and that doesn't really get killed physically.
Final proof for this point is that when Squall is in the past he doesn't feel Laguna's leg cramping, he can't change what Laguna is saying, he has no control...this is weak proof but it helps proove my point about dying in the past. (The reason Squall comes back KOd when Laguna is KOd in the past is merely a gameplay aspect, not a story aspect).

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Really?

Nor the past nor the future is changed.

Time period 1(from Kiros perspective):Zell´s consciousness is sent into Kiro´s head(for example).
Time period 2:Kiros get killed.
Time period 3:Someone revive Kiros(after our characters awake).
Time period 4(From Zell´s perpective):Ellone sent our characters counsciousness into the past.
Time period 5:Zell experience Kiros getting killed and die himself.
Time period 6:Our characters awake and revive Zell.

These time periods are in cronological order.
Past is not changed because,you see,it is Ulti who would take the damage from the dying person,not the opposite.
And if that ever happens,it was because Elle would send Ulti´s consciousness to the past and this very event would be destined,and so the damage taken itself.

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As I stated above (and you ignored, FE) Ellone cannot send someone into the past forever, she'd lose control to stress and exauhstion eventually just like she did on the Escape Pod when she was trying to save Rinoa (remember how she collapsed?)

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No,I don´t ignored and I explained this.
Ellone only needs to sent Ulti from Edea´s body further into the past into a person on a time period where this person his dying.
Thereafter she should brought Ulti´s back into her body.The damage would be taken back and she would be dead.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Really?

Nor the past nor the future is changed.

Time period 1(from Kiros perspective):Zell´s consciousness is sent into Kiro´s head(for example).
Time period 2:Kiros get killed.
Time period 3:Someone revive Kiros(after our characters awake).
Time period 4(From Zell´s perpective):Ellone sent our characters counsciousness into the past.
Time period 5:Zell experience Kiros getting killed and die himself.
Time period 6:Our characters awake and revive Zell.

These time periods are in cronological order.
Past is not changed because,you see,it is Ulti who would take the damage from the dying person,not the opposite.
And if that ever happens,it was because Elle would send Ulti´s consciousness to the past and this very event would be destined,and so the damage taken itself.

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First off, the characters don't die in battle, they're KOd...that's off topic but just so ya know.

Secondly, Kiros getting KOd and in turn KOing Zell when you return to the present is PURELY a gameplay aspect, not a storyline aspect.

Thirdly, if whatever happened to the vessel happened to the person within them, then whoever was sent into Ward when they jumped off the cliff wouldn't be able to talk, just like Ward. In that instance I believe I had Selphie sent into the past, and when they jumped off the cliff and came back to the present, Selphie could talk just fine, proving that whatever happens in the past stays in the past.

I have to admit that Future's idea is quite interesting really. He's correct that it wouldn't have to be changing the past, thus keeping with the ingame facts about time. It sort of reminds me of the Matrix, where if you die in the Matrix, you die in reality, except here it's a case of past and present instead.

However, aisle_s just pointed out a flaw which seems to be irrepairable. Either all physical damage is transferred, or nothing is. Anything else makes no sense....

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I have to admit that Future's idea is quite interesting really. He's correct that it wouldn't have to be changing the past, thus keeping with the ingame facts about time. It sort of reminds me of the Matrix, where if you die in the Matrix, you die in reality, except here it's a case of past and present instead.

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Exactly,thanks.

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However, aisle_s just pointed out a flaw which seems to be irrepairable. Either all physical damage is transferred, or nothing is. Anything else makes no sense....

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And where is this a flaw?

Oh,I see.
You are referring to the throat thingy.

Let me reply to the first post:

Ok, we have already explained in many other threads that a consciousness is sent ot the past, they only view the events at hand. Also, SeeD was created to get rid of possible danger to the world and edea had them established in case if she lost control(of her powers) this is why she had white seed around her before she was possessed. This is in the game ppl just so some of you don't know.

Ellone did not know of the full potential of her powers till some time in the game. For instance, when she took Squall to rnioa in space. She did not know if she could send him to somone that she didn't know. Also, when she ulti and another person( i forgot) to a different time and brought one back. She had never sent a consciousness that was outside of its body already plus another persons consciousness to the past before.

I didn't read the whole thread yet so this might be late.

I see.
Seed is necessary then.
But then why don´t they use my idea on the plan to defeat Ulti?
This time using Rinoa instead of Edea of course.
Seed would not need to go to the future anymore.

Because if they would do that, Ultimecia would never reach Edea in past and then nothing could have happened 'til this moment, another time would have existed, were SeeD don't exist and where Ellone could have died, etc. etc. etc., and then they couldn't create the situation.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Think a little.
Was Garden and Seed really necessary?

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OMG hard thinking! Let's see...yes Seed and Garden is important to an extent. Without SeeD the oprhanes wouldn't have met back together in an attempt to destroy Edea. And Squall wouldn't have met Rinoa, try to destroy another soceress Adel and eventually save the freakin' world. So yeah, I think there was a point to having SeeD and the Gardens. I think Square likes using symbolizing and mythology to their games so everything adds up prettyful-y. Garden and SeeD seem to symbolize growth and need for improvement. The people in SeeD were all young (teenagers) who lacked in certain areas (for example Squall lacked emotinally). *sigh* Too tired too finish right now. All in all it's just a game. There really doesn't need to be an explanation for everything. Square decided to put certain contents in the game to progress the storyline.

Yes,they are necessary for somethings but not for defeting Ulti.
Just teach Ellone using her ability and she would protect herself like a god.

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Because if they would do that, Ultimecia would never reach Edea in past and then nothing could have happened 'til this moment, another time would have existed, were SeeD don't exist and where Ellone could have died, etc. etc. etc., and then they couldn't create the situation.
__________________

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Yeah,I know that all hapened but I am just saying there is no necessity for that.
Ellone do the job quite well.
There would be no need for them going to the future to defeat Ulti nor Squall going back to the orphanage time.

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Yeah,I know that all hapened but I am just saying there is no necessity for that.
Ellone do the job quite well.
There would be no need for them going to the future to defeat Ulti nor Squall going back to the orphanage time.

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Yeah, but thanks to Squall and the others, Ellone learned how far her powers could go. There was no one else to teach her.

exactly, ellone found the full potential of her powers later on. She only knew how to send cnnsciousness to the past of a person she knew. With these new found abilities of the same power, her uses for it expanded. it was necessary for all this to happen.

Yes,I know but:

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I see.
Seed is necessary then.
But then why don´t they use my idea on the plan to defeat Ulti?
This time using Rinoa instead of Edea of course.
Seed would not need to go to the future anymore.
__________________

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Because even if your idea is correct (ie. that someone possessing someone dying also dies), which you so far have not proven, it seems unlikely that anyone in the game would be aware of it...

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Yes,they are necessary for somethings but not for defeting Ulti.
Just teach Ellone using her ability and she would protect herself like a god.

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Who could teach her? Only she knows how to use the power.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Because even if your idea is correct (ie. that someone possessing someone dying also dies), which you so far have not proven, it seems unlikely that anyone in the game would be aware of it...

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Yes, Ellone had not sent anyone back into a dying person and nor did she have a reason to, so if it is possible to kill someone in this method it is unknown to anyone.

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Yes, Ellone had not sent anyone back into a dying person and nor did she have a reason to, so if it is possible to kill someone in this method it is unknown to anyone.

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Actually it is the player who decides that by letting someone die on the past on one of the "Laguna dreams"
And the end result is:
The person inside the one dying in the past also gets dead on the present.

Now, what if you let Laguna and Co. die? How could that happen because if you were seeing in the past and they die, then Squall can't be born to view that in the past.

If you're referring to KO status in battle, that's not death--that's being rendered unable to keep fighting. (Wounded, tired, whatever, but still alive, as they do continue to walk about, participate in dialogue, and generally not cause trauma to their friends.) Phoenix Downs and Life magic don't do anything for the actually dead, after all.

I know if one person gets Ko'd, but I mean the enitre party because then the game ends meaning they died.

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I know if one person gets Ko'd, but I mean the enitre party because then the game ends meaning they died.

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Purely a gameplay aspect, making Laguna dream sequences un-loseable would be a bad idea.

Ellone cannot kill with her power, it's as simple as that. If death is transferred through Ellone's ability then logically so would all damages, meaning that the person in Ward's body at the time of the Lunatic Pandora incident wouldn't be able to talk, like I said before. This person can still talk after that, so it proves that Ellone's power doesn't transfer any change in one's vital signs (other than KO/HP counts, but once again, PURELY GAMEPLAY).

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Originally Posted by aisle_s

Purely a gameplay aspect, making Laguna dream sequences un-loseable would be a bad idea.

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Why would it be a bad idea? It would give you an explanation that they can't get killed while in a dream. The only people that can decide if its a gameplay or storyline aspect is Square.

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Originally Posted by X Masta

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Originally Posted by aisle_s

Purely a gameplay aspect, making Laguna dream sequences un-loseable would be a bad idea.

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Why would it be a bad idea? It would give you an explanation that they can't get killed while in a dream. The only people that can decide if its a gameplay or storyline aspect is Square.

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Give me proof besides that that you can be killed in the past and I'll believe you, but FE's argument on this isnt really substantial.

Laguna and company did not die on the past on the excavation site because our heros heal were transferred to them.
They recover and when they are fully recovered our heros were on the prision and their consciousness were sent to the past.They recover their health.Squall is therefore alive.

This is also what happens with Propagators .
When one dies,another one with the same color gets inside the dead one transferring their health.Of course,there is a third one who has the ability to transfer the consciousness.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Laguna and company did not die on the past on the excavation site because our heros heal were transferred to them.
They recover and when they are fully recovered our heros were on the prision and their consciousness were sent to the past.They recover their health.Squall is therefore alive.

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I didn't mean Laguna and Co. died at the Lunatic, I meant that Ward lost his voice permamently, thus whoever you sent back into him should of logically lost theirs if the game worked by your ideas.

That would make as sense as saying that Zell gets fat after being sent inside Ward.

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That would make as sense as saying that Zell gets fat after being sent inside Ward.

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Um...no, because one's weight is a physical characteristic...not a mental one, like being conscious or not being able to speak. Why would only certain mental characteristics be transferred and not others, like the inability to speak...you've yet to answer my question.

Esthar, the point is that you're arguing that the physical ailment of death would be inflicted upon the viewer, when we know from Ward's incident that physical ailments are NOT transferred to the viewer.

Being inable to talk in this case was a physical threat.

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Esthar, the point is that you're arguing that the physical ailment of death would be inflicted upon the viewer, when we know from Ward's incident that physical ailments are NOT transferred to the viewer.

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I do not believe anyway that the transferring thing was pure gameplay aspect.

"Propagators are only one entity"

When a person gets an eye blind the other don´t get automatically blind.
However when one gets hurt letting blood fall all the body suffer the consequences.

This example helps explaining how the hurt gets transferred but not the throat damage.
One can think of the Propagators as a unique body on a Minkovsky space(time-space continuum).

If one projects this body in a spatial instance plane what one gets?
Sorceress Adel.Of course this proccess is not automatic.
The body somehow gets broked and it´s pieces need to get glued using a special magic.

This Minkovsky bond is what enables the "dream" thingy I think.
However Ellone is the only one who knows how to use this ability.
The other ones forgot.

It is like human beings.Our brain can do many things behound our imagination.
But humans only use about 20% of their brains.
One needs to learn how to use the other 80%.
But the functionalities are there.

Where's the base for your argument FE? I don't recall anyone saying that all humans can do what Elloen does...

And propagators are totally different, they exist in the same time period, AND they have a different connection...but then again i dont remember them being the same entity at all.

I believe when Future Esthar mentions the Propagators are the same entity, it means that they have a symbiotic relationship to heal each other.

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but then again i dont remember them being the same entity at all.

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It is stated in the game.
But did you understand why the example I give explains how HP hurt is transferred but not throath hurt?

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I believe when Future Esthar mentions the Propagators are the same entity, it means that they have a symbiotic relationship to heal each other.

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I myself would not say it better.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

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but then again i dont remember them being the same entity at all.

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It is stated in the game.
But did you understand why the example I give explains how HP hurt is transferred but not throath hurt?

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Nope, I don't get how that explains your idea about HP/KOd status transfer between time...Propagators are totally different, and also exist in the same time period.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

When a person gets an eye blind the other don´t get automatically blind.
However when one gets hurt letting blood fall all the body suffer the consequences.

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Really? Give some evidence to support this. Even with the Propagators, this isn't the case. You kill one, it has no effect on the others. If your idea here was true, killing one of the Propagators would instantly kill all the others.

Also, give any evidence that connects the Propagators to humans in any way before you attempt to use them as a logical argument for what happened to human beings. They are not the same type of creatures, and to think that they follow the same rules as humans is an entirely unwarranted assumption.

No, FE, you can't handwave this'n. You are arguing that death, an alteration of the physical state of the host, will be reflected with a similar alteration on the physical state of the observer.

Ward proves that this is not the case.

All you have is that being KO'd transfers. However, being KO'd is purely a gameplay aspect (for example- Squall still interacts with the worldmap and people when KO'd), so this argument is perilously weak against the fact that Ward's posessee shows no signs of his injury, despite the injury occuring while the party is still piggybacking Laguna and Co.

I already explained that:

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When a person gets an eye blind the other don´t get automatically blind.
However when one gets hurt letting blood fall all the body suffer the consequences.

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This was an example to explain how is it possible to transfer HP damage but not throat damage.

explain throat damage.

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

I already explained that:

Quote:

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When a person gets an eye blind the other don´t get automatically blind.
However when one gets hurt letting blood fall all the body suffer the consequences.

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This was an example to explain how is it possible to transfer HP damage but not throat damage.

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That doesn't explain it, and even if it did the whole body DOES suffer from the loss of sight in one eye.

Alright,I see I can´t convince you.
From now this will become an overall theory thread.

can someone explain the difference between HP damage and throat damage in the game?

HP damage-The loss of HP
Throat damage-loosing ability to speak.
First usually leads to latter.
But it doesn´t mean they are the same.

i see.

second leads to first,I mean.

second leads to first? :O_O:

Yes. A demonstration...

*Punches Future Esthar in the throat*
*FE loses 128 hit points*

See?