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ok, i have been thinking about time compression and how does ultimicia compress time, i know he waited till rinoa got adels powers then ellone sent ulti into the past but throught rinoas body but then what.
what did ulti do when she was in the future and past, did she cast some sort of haste magic in the past and some sort of slow magic in the future so time would compress?
can i hear explainations as soon as poss
You should ask Future Esthar for an explanation...:D ;)
lol, i would but hes not online, lol
Think of time compression as being a spell. Ultimecia has access to spells like "Ultima" and "Meteor", but also "Time Compression". That's all there is to it really.
Why she needs to be in the past to cast it remains a mystery unexplained by the game, or anywhere else for that matter.
i think she needs to be in the past, because ... (need to think of a good comparison)
think of 2 magnets with paper in between, i think her time compression is like the magnets attracting but still with the paper in the middle. if that makes sense.
and i was jus wonderin if there was any special trick to time compression like in the past you have to stand where you are in the future or somethin crazy like that, lol.
It gives me headaches.
Imagine time as a piece of string. One end represents the start of time, the other end represent it's end. Now imagine if you were to crumple up the string ball. All of the days along the string would meet and it would be possible to visit any time and any space within a single moment simply because they would be next to each other. That's what Time Compression is like : Balling up the string to gain access to not only all of space, but all of time also. Quite a powerful thing to accomplish really, since it entails control over the whole universe.
That would only make sense if Ultimecia set up these magnets at the beginning and end of time, which she clearly doesn't. If she could ostensibly set them up at any two different points in time, her necessity for coming to the far past would be ridiculous (she could have cast the first magnet, and then cast the second one straight away; they'd still be in seperate places of time).Quote:
think of 2 magnets with paper in between, i think her time compression is like the magnets attracting but still with the paper in the middle. if that makes sense.
Further, there is nothing that suggests that she needs to be at more than one location, or that she needs to cast it in several parts. All that is indicated is that she needs to be at some point in the past in order to cast it. No reason is given, and I doubt any reason can be found.
I agree with said explanationQuote:
Originally Posted by Maxx Power
Funniest thing I've heard today (but sure nonetheless he has a theory about it)Quote:
Originally Posted by *~Angel Wing~*
Perhaps the reason she needs to go further back in time than the Junction Machine Ellone can take her is because there is something in the further past she needs in order to accomplish time compression. All the game says about it is something like "She needs to go back further to compress time".
To me she never performed TC at all.
Thatīs why I think I had nothing to do with this thread.
If she didn't perform Time Compression, Squall and Co. couldn't get to the future, she had to have done it.
Ok,will not interfere on this thread.But three words:
Lunatic Pandora+Time travel+Holographic illusions proggramed to appear on the walls.
To me, it always seemed fairly obvious that a requirement of the magic is that she cast it from three different times--a past, a present, and a future--in order to set the gears of Time Compression in motion. Time Compression did take time, and maybe it would have been faster if she'd gone to the beginning and then to the end, but.
If you use the string example, it does hold up--you take three points on the string, and yank them together, /hard/, pulling the other ends of the string together--the momentum, and her continued use of the magic once it starts, keeps Time Compression going. Until, that is, SeeD kills the heck out of her and it starts to shift back to the way it was.
If the time would achieved compression, anything would ended, live, death, time, things, everything would disappeared
Ultimecia nearly achieved time compression, but was stopped.
With her at the past, and her body in future, Both "tryed" to get united once again, achieving to compress the time
This isn't a satisfactory explanation either, I'm afraid.Quote:
To me, it always seemed fairly obvious that a requirement of the magic is that she cast it from three different times--a past, a present, and a future--in order to set the gears of Time Compression in motion. Time Compression did take time, and maybe it would have been faster if she'd gone to the beginning and then to the end, but.
If you use the string example, it does hold up--you take three points on the string, and yank them together, /hard/, pulling the other ends of the string together--the momentum, and her continued use of the magic once it starts, keeps Time Compression going. Until, that is, SeeD kills the heck out of her and it starts to shift back to the way it was.
Firstly, your statement that she needs to cast it in the past, the present, and the future all at once is meaningless, because it singles out the time of the game (ie. Squalls era) as being the present, Ultimecias time the future, and pre-Squall time as the past. Such a division of time is quite arbitrary though, and there is no meaningful reason as to why Ultimecia would need to set Squalls time as 'present'. Much more reasonable is then to say that Ultimecia's present is the present in question, but since she never travels to the future, the idea that she casts it in past present and future doesn't hold.
Secondly, it is specifically made clear that Ultimecia has to be beyond a certain point in the past (as seen from her perspective) to cast it, but there is absolutely no logical reason as to why she needed to be at one exact location for TC to work. If she simply needed to cast it at two (or three) different times, there should logically speaking be no difference between any two (or three) arbitrary points, rendering this idea meaningless.
Thirdly, absolutely nothing indicates that Ultimecia casts the spell at more than one point in time! It is an assumption on your side which has been placed into the game with no basis whatsoever. Clearly this greatly lessens the plausibility of your idea.
Finally, there is a huge flaw in your concept of yanking time together like a string. If TC initiates an actually physical deformation of time itself, once time reverts back to normal after beating Ultimecia, there would be nothing indicating it ever happening! Think about it; it makes no sense that time itself is yanked together, so as to then revert back to normal afterwards, because it treats time itself as something which moves through time! (if it undergoes change, it must move through time). That clearly makes no sense whatsoever. Furthermore, if TC was an impermanent feature of the line of time, all the events which occur as a result of TC would only exist as long as TC does, which completely contradicts the games concept of fate and static time.
In other words, if anything is to make any sense at all, TC must be seen as an actual event on the line of time itself, and the gradual compression of time would be reflected within this single TC event, until everyone/everything emerges on the other side when TC ends.
For a detailed explanation on this concept, as well as more on time compression and time in FF8 in general, please check out the "Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ" found here:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html
It should hopefully explain things in a satisfactory manner. If not, please ask me here.
EDIT: I should say that the image of the string can still be useful in terms of understanding what TC actually accomplishes, but it simply cannot be used as more than a metaphore. Personally, by the way, I like to use the metaphor of considering time as a film, and TC as placing all the slides of the film on top of eachother to create one single image.
Actually, the string example was never meant as anything /but/ a metaphor, and the point is that the three points were arbitrary.
'Past', 'present', and 'future' were just shorthand for 'three different points in time', at least according to what I'd meant. For her, yes, it would have been 'present', 'past', 'farther past'. (That is, 'a' past, present, and future, not 'the' past, present, and future.) The semantics of that aren't as important; it wasn't important /which/ three points, only that there were in fact three, like plotting a point on a three-dimensional space. I don't remember when the game stated that TC had to be done past a certain point--as far as I knew, she needed Ellone becuase she could only reach two points on her own and three JME. To add to this, she needed to be in control of three sets of Sorceress powers in order to accomplish her goal--I've gathered that unless one possesses the link that such powers offer, it's basically impossible to affect the world while placed in the past. (You can't /really/ change the past, but from Ultimecia's perspective, she did, I think, in controlling Edea.) Actually, it might have been the case that it was required that Ultimecia went far enough back that she wasn't born yet, and then far enough back that her 'center' (Rinoa) wasn't born yet, and that was the reason that she had to go that far back--that, and she had to find the only times in which Ellone and JME were active. I wouldn't quote myself on that without more research, but it is one possibility.
The assumption that she casts the spell at three different points does, however, have basis. Why else wouldn't she be able to just do it on her own, in her own time? It's equally possible that she simply needed the vantage point of the different times, or the power boost of using the powers of all three Sorceresses, but it's still a possibility. The exact mechanics of the Time Compression magic are largely in the realm of speculation, in any case.
I don't necessarily see why Time Compression would have to be erased when it was ended under my proposed mechanic, though. It's perfectly reasonable to think that Time Compression would leave its mark on all times, given that they'd all been sort of squished together. In fact, I expect that a few people were actually lost in time, much as Squall and Ultimecia travelled through. It doesn't contradict fate at all, because the string was just a metaphor--and really, I prefer your film image, now that you mention it, for what actually happened.
In short, time can be viewed any number of ways. In this case, there are two that are relevant: outside of Time Compression, time might well be that line, that just keeps on going, with events sprinkled therein--one of which is Time Compression. Time Compression pulls all of time into itself, but it still contained within the grander scheme of Time, because it ended.
On the other hand, there's the view /during/ Time Compression--where it's basically drawing all of Time in on itself. I'd give an image, but I think we have quite enough of them.
I probably should have expected not to get away with being vague when it came to TC, of course. I've read your FAQ before, though, and on the reread it's still interesting. A lot of this can't really be /proven/, but I like to try to find answers that are at least consistent. It helps in writing in FF8, in any case.
It isn't stated, true, but it is the natural implication if you don't follow your idea. Basically, what is stated is that she needs to be in 'the far past' to achiece TC, and that she needs Ellone to do this. It is never stated anything about needing to be in three times though. Further, which I forgot to add before, if she needed only to cast it at three arbitrary points, Ellones role is redundant. If she merely cast it once, cast it a second time, and a third time, straight after eachother, all three castings would have occured at three different, arbitrary, points in time.Quote:
I don't remember when the game stated that TC had to be done past a certain point--as far as I knew, she needed Ellone becuase she could only reach two points on her own and three JME.
So obviously there is more to it. In your idea, I suppose you might argue that she needed the spells to be cast at greater distances from eachother, but the fact is that her present and 'far past' is only seperated by a few hunded years, which in the scale of the age of the universe might as well be a few seconds apart.
This seems to be the only semi-plausible notion I noted in the aforementioned FAQ, that Ultimecia wasn't powerful enough as she was, and needed to boost her powers through Rinoa and a young Adel. Still, it is quite annoying that nothing points to this either.Quote:
To add to this, she needed to be in control of three sets of Sorceress powers in order to accomplish her goal--I've gathered that unless one possesses the link that such powers offer, it's basically impossible to affect the world while placed in the past.
I don't see what logic is behind that though. Granted, it seems hard to find much logic behind this in general, but anyway...Quote:
Actually, it might have been the case that it was required that Ultimecia went far enough back that she wasn't born yet, and then far enough back that her 'center' (Rinoa) wasn't born yet, and that was the reason that she had to go that far back--that, and she had to find the only times in which Ellone and JME were active. I wouldn't quote myself on that without more research, but it is one possibility.
Well, the thing is that there are hardly any ideas for why the spell was limited in that way which DO have basis. The notion of boosting her powers has some basis, but isn't particularly satisfactory. The notion that she casts it at three times is a possibility, sure, but it seems to random to be a satisfactory explanation. After all, nothing indicates that she casts the TC spell anywhere but the far past. And as pointed out earlier, if she needed to cast it at more than one points, what was the reason for each casting to have to be at such specific distances from eachother?Quote:
The assumption that she casts the spell at three different points does, however, have basis. Why else wouldn't she be able to just do it on her own, in her own time?
Unfortunately, I have no alternate explanations for why she couldn't cast it in her own time. I guess a plot device is the practical answer (if she could cast it at her own time all of time would be compressed soon after starting the game!), but I doubt Square actually thought of a logical reason. After all, all the Tutorial says is that it is a mystery...nice going Square :rolleyes2
What sort of marks do you have in mind? My two points were basically that the event in which Squall and Co travelled through time compression to Ultimecias world and back would cease to exist after TC ended if TC were in fact a literal deformation of time. TC HAS to be in effect for them to get to the future and back, but once TC stops, the event in which Squall and Co go the future would be meaningless, as TC wouldn't exist for them to be able to travel to the future, if you see what I mean (other example: imagine taking a drive in a car. Then picture that the car was removed from all of time. Would the event in which you drove in a car now make any sense at all? Same thing here). But mainly it is simply the fact that a physical deformation treats time as something which changes which is quite strange.Quote:
I don't necessarily see why Time Compression would have to be erased when it was ended under my proposed mechanic, though. It's perfectly reasonable to think that Time Compression would leave its mark on all times, given that they'd all been sort of squished together. In fact, I expect that a few people were actually lost in time, much as Squall and Ultimecia travelled through. It doesn't contradict fate at all, because the string was just a metaphor--and really, I prefer your film image, now that you mention it, for what actually happened.
I suppose Square MIGHT have actually been considering space-time as it is in our universe (as described by General Relativity), which is something tangible, which can be affected. I thought about that before once, that TC would then be like compressing space-time, which I suppose would be quite feasible, even if it entails deforming time itself. However, I would rather try and find a more simple possibility, and quite frankly, I don't know if I'm willing to give Square the benefit of the doubt here, considering the obvious lack of thought put into TC.
Haha, I guess not ;) Hope I didn't come across as being harsh in my last post by the way. Your idea could be conceivable, I'll grant it that, but IMO it's simply too complex and baseless to be satisfactory. Of course, myself and the other people I've discussed TC with haven't found a better explanation, but by now I'm starting to lose hope in ever finding one.Quote:
I probably should have expected not to get away with being vague when it came to TC, of course.
Perhaps the casting of Time Compression has some sort of requirement to be fulfilled that can be only done so by being in the past? Maybe it's more of a ritualistic type of magic, instead of the magic that appears out of thin air like fire and ice? For instance, think of a pentagram that some modern day witches use to cast their spells, they believe it necessary to cast that spell...perhaps one's conciousness must be so far back in time from one's physical self in order to cast the spell? There is no basis, I know, but that's the way I've always seen it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Also, about the whole physical mark that TC leaves on the past, present and future, it doesn't leave one period. The game says that time is set in stone and unchangeable so this means that TC has already left it's mark on the past because it's happening was inevitable due to time being 100% planned out already, but because TC has left it's mark on the past already the people of FF8's past don't notice because that's what time is normally like for them. I'm explaining this a little unclearly but hopefully you understand.
I'm not even going to ask what this means, because I'll end up getting frusterated with you...but I have to point out that that is actually 12 words, not 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
this whole time compression thing kinda throws me, I mean, im not good at physics. But I generally got the idea that compressing time was just like other time magic (eg. Slow, Stop) which affect a characters personal Time. This is just on a much larger scale. This sort of magic is obviously available to her on account that a) shes a kick ass magic user and b) that she can travel back in time (which is pretty cool)
Yeah, that's generally how I view it. The spell simply had it as a requirement to be in the past, for some magical reason like you give examples of here.Quote:
Perhaps the casting of Time Compression has some sort of requirement to be fulfilled that can be only done so by being in the past? Maybe it's more of a ritualistic type of magic, instead of the magic that appears out of thin air like fire and ice? For instance, think of a pentagram that some modern day witches use to cast their spells, they believe it necessary to cast that spell...perhaps one's conciousness must be so far back in time from one's physical self in order to cast the spell? There is no basis, I know, but that's the way I've always seen it.
Exactly; time is set in stone, hence TC cannot be a physical process affecting time. As for the marks and all that, it's true that any mark would not be perceived as anything different, because as you say, the marks would always have been there. But what exactly is meant by 'marks' anyway. Sounds a bit too wishy-washy for my tastes but anyway...Quote:
Also, about the whole physical mark that TC leaves on the past, present and future, it doesn't leave one period. The game says that time is set in stone and unchangeable so this means that TC has already left it's mark on the past because it's happening was inevitable due to time being 100% planned out already, but because TC has left it's mark on the past already the people of FF8's past don't notice because that's what time is normally like for them. I'm explaining this a little unclearly but hopefully you understand.
Well, the mark it leaves is fairly simple--some people actually remember. I suppose that those that weren't shifted in time don't (because for them, time simply stopped, as Sir Bahamut suggested, and picked up after TC), but Squall, for instance, remembers it, as I expect would Xu and the CC Group, and anyone else whom managed to travel through time in that method. It wouldn't surprise me if a few things didn't come back to where they needed to be quite right, or some people got lost, of course, because as Time Compression ended, existence seemed to be somewhat malleable. That, however, is outside the purview of this theory.
I think, especially by the idea that time was static, it becomes difficult to try to think of time in a two-dimensional way, because many things /did/ happen at the same time and at different times simultaneously. It might be possible to try to simplify it, as your methods show, but I think that a relatively complex angle approaches it better--and I'd be willing to give the benefit of the doubt that space-time was considered to be something tangible in and of itself.
Well, my support for the three-points idea is that this, to me, might well allow Ultimecia to step partially outside time, but more importantly, would have enough weight to draw in the rest of time. Clearly, Time Compression was a gradual process--two points wouldn't have been enough to pull in the whole of time, only one side, like in a tug-of-war. With three points, however, one can 'pull' at either end, and then 'pull' at the center to draw /those/ all in on one another. It's the motion that made me think that it required the three, and the fact that Ultimecia needed all three times. Then, I suppose it's /possible/ that she ony needed the far past, too.
Personally, I think that she chose Edea's time because that's the only time she could choose--you have to know the person you're being sent to, using Ellone's powers, and because Edea literally had Ultimecia's powers (assuming that time is one, and that the events at the end in the past had already happened), there was enough of a bond that Ultimecia could possess Edea. Now, whether she needed three times or whether this just wasn't /quite/ far enough, I'm not sure, but it seems to be that needing three times is the simpler option, and offers a better explanation than needing a specific time without any discernible reason.
Now, the times aren't very far separated, but the Sorceress power is power over reality itself, so that might have been enough to start the chain reaction that I saw as Time Compression. Of course, you're probably right about Square's thought processes, but we do make do.
Don't worry about sounding harsh; you haven't. I think we have slightly different perspectives, too. I'm fine with complex, as long as it's consistent, largely because my vantage point is as a theorist, sure, but more to the point as someone who writes in the fandom. If it's at least consistent speculation, that seems not to contradict canon, I can use it. ...And, of course, I do enjoy trying to figure out a few reasonable methods for this.
(Oops, I've been ninja'd.) But really--time is set in stone, sure (since we're operating under that idea in FF8 right now), but so is reality. If the Sorceress can manipulate reality, think about the amount of Sorceress power involved in absorbing all of reality. It's not unreasonable to think that something that could rewrite existence could alter time a bit, too.
3 concepts,I mean.
The only people who would remember TC would be those from the present (by that, I mean Squall's time) and the people from the future, because in the past it had already happened...if you understand that, I don't know if that's clear enough because I suck at explaining things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qurange
No, I don't think she could alter time no matter how strong she became. In my opinion, the 'fate' that is present throughout all of FF8 is far more powerful than Ultimecia, even if she absorbed all of existence...because fate wasn't really absorbed by her, it is higher than her. Fate had already layed out the timeline for the planet's existence, and it CANNOT be changed under any circumstance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qurange
I disagree there. The notion of things getting 'lost' and not coming back to where they were supposed to be contradicts fate, but I'll come back to that a bit later...Quote:
Well, the mark it leaves is fairly simple--some people actually remember. I suppose that those that weren't shifted in time don't (because for them, time simply stopped, as Sir Bahamut suggested, and picked up after TC), but Squall, for instance, remembers it, as I expect would Xu and the CC Group, and anyone else whom managed to travel through time in that method. It wouldn't surprise me if a few things didn't come back to where they needed to be quite right, or some people got lost, of course, because as Time Compression ended, existence seemed to be somewhat malleable. That, however, is outside the purview of this theory.
But as I explained last post, it cannot simply be that she needs to cast it at three different times, because if that were all there was to it, she could simply cast it three times in succession in her own time, because each cast would still be in three seperate locations of time. Instead though, Ultimecia needs to go the far past to activate it, meaning there must be more to it. In your three point idea, one might argue that each casting needs to be seperated by a certain amount of time, but not only does this add further baseless assumptions to an already baseless idea, it doesn't add up, because the intervals between each period she's in aren't evenly distributed (which would be the logical assumption). Ultimecias era (presumably where she cast spell nr. 1) is sperated from Squalls time (spell nr. 2) by several hundreds of years, but the seperation from Squalls era and 'the far past' (ie. when Adel was young) is at best 60 or so years.Quote:
Personally, I think that she chose Edea's time because that's the only time she could choose--you have to know the person you're being sent to, using Ellone's powers, and because Edea literally had Ultimecia's powers (assuming that time is one, and that the events at the end in the past had already happened), there was enough of a bond that Ultimecia could possess Edea. Now, whether she needed three times or whether this just wasn't /quite/ far enough, I'm not sure, but it seems to be that needing three times is the simpler option, and offers a better explanation than needing a specific time without any discernible reason.
In other words, the three point idea does not avoid the unexplainable fact that Ultimecia needs to cast the spell at a certain point(/s) in time, but rather adds to the confusion by stating that she doesn't cast it once, but thrice!
The idea that she cast it once is thus clearly more favourable, because although it cannot either explain why Ultimecia needed to cast it where she did, it is simpler than the three point idea.
I agree with aisle_s here. Sure, if time were fully compressed, Ultimecia could theoretically screw up time completely, but that never happens. Why? Because fate has laid everything out so that Ultimecia loses. The only reason the main characters defeat Ultimecia is because of fate (her final form is more or less as powerful as Hyne, after all), and Ultimecias story is all about escaping fate, which of course is what brings about her own fate to begin with!Quote:
But really--time is set in stone, sure (since we're operating under that idea in FF8 right now), but so is reality. If the Sorceress can manipulate reality, think about the amount of Sorceress power involved in absorbing all of reality. It's not unreasonable to think that something that could rewrite existence could alter time a bit, too.
So no, I think the time compression event is orderly chaos, not simply chaos. Everything is set out perfectly; time is set in stone completely, and time compression is merely another set in stone event fated to happen, and is simply another logical part of the unfolding line of time.
But since time compression affects past and present alike, it had also already happened in the future too....Quote:
The only people who would remember TC would be those from the present (by that, I mean Squall's time) and the people from the future, because in the past it had already happened...if you understand that, I don't know if that's clear enough because I suck at explaining things.
Yes, it technically had already happened to everytime period, what I meant was that the only people whom would remember it happening would be those in the present and future. This is because it had not yet 'happened' in the past, so they wouldn't be able to remember something as being different when a post-time compressed world is all they knew. Those in the present remember because they saw it happen, and those in the future remember because they either saw it happen, or it's in history booksQuote:
Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Remembering aside, Time Compression had left it's "/mark/" on all time periods since the beginning of time, and because of this it is impossible to see if Time Compression truly leaves a mark because a world without it does not exist in FF8.
For the first time we actually agree.Quote:
[Remembering aside, Time Compression had left it's "/mark/" on all time periods since the beginning of time, and because of this it is impossible to see if Time Compression truly leaves a mark because a world without it does not exist in FF8.
__________________
Well she perfomed it, but she never finished it. In the game it is explained that when Ultimecia starts the Time Compression, Past Present and Future will be mixed together(That's how they got to go in to the future) but they had to destroy Ultimecia before she FINISHED THE TIME COMPRESSION process, because the only living being who could live in a time compressed universe is Ultimecia...Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Esthar
So tecnicaly Time Compression was never finished...