Ramza's Ideals

If Ramza would have choosen the path of go with his brother Dycedarg, what do you think would have happened? Come on guys, lets think about it:)

I think the world could have been destroyed then, but still... Ramza has a good soul, and the evil acts of the Lucavi and of his brother could have taken him out of control, and then nobody could have stopped Read under your own riskAltima and she would have controled over the world, and Alma would have died, Zalbag don't, and Dycedarg would have complete control over the knights what do you think?

Somehat what you said

If he had sided with Dycedarg, he might've actually achieved knighthood and probably won/inherited some sort of position in the army, as was the case back then. Alma never would have went to Orbonne to get kidnapped in the first place if Ramza wasn't a heretic, so I think she would probably have lived. Then again, Ramza was pretty dutiful about snuffing out the Zodiac demons before they could really wreak havoc on the country (I mean, people only know of rumors, after all), so that could escalate into a bigger problem than before. But, just how early was he supposed to have sided with Dycedarg -- Chapter One or later when all the events start occuring?

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Originally Posted by Shotgunnova

If he had sided with Dycedarg, he might've actually achieved knighthood and probably won/inherited some sort of position in the army, as was the case back then. Alma never would have went to Orbonne to get kidnapped in the first place if Ramza wasn't a heretic, so I think she would probably have lived. Then again, Ramza was pretty dutiful about snuffing out the Zodiac demons before they could really wreak havoc on the country (I mean, people only know of rumors, after all), so that could escalate into a bigger problem than before. But, just how early was he supposed to have sided with Dycedarg -- Chapter One or later when all the events start occuring?

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Right when he got consciousness of the things his brother was doing

Assuming we're staying true to the core of Ramza's character, in this case he would have probably done so with the express purpose of taking down his brother's ambitions from the inside. Thus, he probably would have still confronted every Zodiac Demon that did arise, he may just not have had as much trouble with it.

Considering both Delita and Ramza had beloved sisters, and the Death Corps tried to kidnap them both, it's tempting to think that Ramza's and Delita's roles would have been reversed had Teta lived and Alma died. Of course, Algus and Zalbag would have acted differently at Fort Zeakden.

I don't think Ramza had the same issues as Delita, so most likely not. Ramza's the sort of person who does what he thinks is right, no matter how inconvient it is. Delita's more the kind of person who plays along while carrying out his own agenda on the sly.

I think the only way Ramza would cooperate with Dycedarg is if Alma's safety depended directly on it.

I'm approaching this as a totally hypothetical situation, one which I.M.H.O. could never have happened because of the purity of Ramza's heart. He's just too good of a man to ever turn a blind eye to the injustice that was so rampant in Ivalice.

If hypothetically he had sided with Dycedarg, call it family loyalty taking absolute priority over his own personal morals, whatever, he would have continued to aid Dycedarg until one particular event would have swung him drastically back to the other side. And I'll elaborate more on that thought later.

When he was allied with Dycedarg he would have agreed with Algus, that his responsibility to his noble family took priority over his friendship to Delita even as Delita's(SPOILER) rage over his sister's kidnapping led him to fight and kill Algus. Ramza would have done his best to save Algus, possibly at the cost of his or Delita's life. This is a crucial turning point in the story which would have been different if Ramza's loyalties had laid with his brother.

From this point on there may have been no (SPOILER)kidnapping of Ovelia from Igros Castle, at least not by Delita. And Ramza would have continued to aid his family in "protecting" the Princess until his brother probably would explain how it would be "better for the Beoulve family" if they (SPOILER)were to stage a ruse, a fake kidnapping where Goltana sent somebody to take her. Thus making Goltana and the Nanten criminals. If the princess were to be "killed by the Nanten", even better for the Beoulves. I imagine Dycedarg would probably trick Gaffgarion into (SPOILER)being the martyred patsy for this plot, since Gaff could play a rather convincing T.G. Cid, only to have Ramza, and maybe Algus, betray Gaffgarion at some point to keep everything a secret.

(SPOILER)The Church's plot, and Vormav's hidden agenda would also come into play. As Rofel visited Dycedarg (SPOILER)to confront him about the assassination of Balbanes some time ago, and blackmail him into aiding the Lucavi in some way. Here is where Ramza's loyalties probably would have switched back to the way they were in the game. (SPOILER)IF Zalbag had still overheard the conversation between Rofel and Dycedarg, and had been able to convince Ramza by taking him to the grave to see the evidence of mosfungus poison. Ramza would have reacted in the same way as Zalbag did in reality. (SPOILER)A son's loyalty to his father would have taken priority over loyalty to a traitorous brother. Thus, together Ramza and Zalbag would have (SPOILER)confronted their brother, who by this time would probably have been possessed by the Lucavi Adramelk. And the outcome of that battle would have been pretty much the same as we know it.

At this point Ramza is back on the "right" side, now whether or not they (SPOILER)still have time to stop the other Lucavi and the plan to resurrect Ajora by using Alma, is another topic for debate that we could cover in a different thread. I'd love that! :love: :cool:

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Originally Posted by Despotus

I'm approaching this as a totally hypothetical situation, one which I.M.H.O. could never have happened because of the purity of Ramza's heart. He's just too good of a man to ever turn a blind eye to the injustice that was so rampant in Ivalice.

If hypothetically he had sided with Dycedarg, call it family loyalty taking absolute priority over his own personal morals, whatever, he would have continued to aid Dycedarg until one particular event would have swung him drastically back to the other side. And I'll elaborate more on that thought later.

When he was allied with Dycedarg he would have agreed with Algus, that his responsibility to his noble family took priority over his friendship to Delita even as Delita's(SPOILER) rage over his sister's kidnapping led him to fight and kill Algus. Ramza would have done his best to save Algus, possibly at the cost of his or Delita's life. This is a crucial turning point in the story which would have been different if Ramza's loyalties had laid with his brother.

From this point on there may have been no (SPOILER)kidnapping of Ovelia from Igros Castle, at least not by Delita. And Ramza would have continued to aid his family in "protecting" the Princess until his brother probably would explain how it would be "better for the Beoulve family" if they (SPOILER)were to stage a ruse, a fake kidnapping where Goltana sent somebody to take her. Thus making Goltana and the Nanten criminals. If the princess were to be "killed by the Nanten", even better for the Beoulves. I imagine Dycedarg would probably trick Gaffgarion into (SPOILER)being the martyred patsy for this plot, since Gaff could play a rather convincing T.G. Cid, only to have Ramza, and maybe Algus, betray Gaffgarion at some point to keep everything a secret.

(SPOILER)The Church's plot, and Vormav's hidden agenda would also come into play. As Rofel visited Dycedarg (SPOILER)to confront him about the assassination of Balbanes some time ago, and blackmail him into aiding the Lucavi in some way. Here is where Ramza's loyalties probably would have switched back to the way they were in the game. (SPOILER)IF Zalbag had still overheard the conversation between Rofel and Dycedarg, and had been able to convince Ramza by taking him to the grave to see the evidence of mosfungus poison. Ramza would have reacted in the same way as Zalbag did in reality. (SPOILER)A son's loyalty to his father would have taken priority over loyalty to a traitorous brother. Thus, together Ramza and Zalbag would have (SPOILER)confronted their brother, who by this time would probably have been possessed by the Lucavi Adramelk. And the outcome of that battle would have been pretty much the same as we know it.

At this point Ramza is back on the "right" side, now whether or not they (SPOILER)still have time to stop the other Lucavi and the plan to resurrect Ajora by using Alma, is another topic for debate that we could cover in a different thread. I'd love that! :love: :cool:

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Great analysis, but there's one great point that makes the whole plot to make a great change.

Delita

He moved a lot of strings in the plot actually, there just the simple fact that he (SPOILER)kidnapped the princess, a really important point, because this takes a lot of things, think this.

In a invented story, (SPOILER)Delita didn't kidnapped the princess, because he went alone to save Teta and died in the explosion.

He didn't appeared in Ramza's way, and give him Ovelia's care, he didn't betrayed Goltana, Neither Larg, then he didn't fall in love with Ovelia, and neither used her in his manipulation plot to take over the rulership of Ivalice.

Actually, if you think more about this, (SPOILER)he "protected" Ramza and his friends from death, giving them time to destroy the Lucavi.

Actually, if Ramza would have stayed in his brother side, Delita would have died and everything would have gone down.

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Originally Posted by Ramza Beoulve

Actually, if Ramza would have stayed in his brother side, Delita would have died and everything would have gone down.

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I totally agree here. However, as I stated in my horribly long post, I think Delita probably would have died (SPOILER)much earlier in the story then when Fort Zeakden blows up. He might have died in the very first arguement between Algus and Delita outside of Beoulve Castle just after Dycedarg is wounded and Teta is kidnapped, or he might have gone alone (SPOILER)to rescue Teta like Ramza Beoulve said above. Whereas "real" Ramza tells Algus (SPOILER)to get lost, the "Dycedarg-Loyal" Ramza, may have told Delita that he should just leave everything to Dycedarg and his plan to rescue Teta and then destroy the Death Corps at Ft. Zeakden. Delita would probably never have (SPOILER)listened to Ramza's advice here and thus the two friends would have been forever divided.

If Delita decided that (SPOILER)that was a good time to draw a sword on Algus, like he later does, see my above post. But if he just told Ramza (SPOILER)to kiss his butt and then ran off to rescue his sister by himself as my friend Ramza Beoulve said, he would have been killed by the Death Corps (SPOILER)in the attempted solo-rescue. And he never would have been alive to witness the attack if Dycedarg seriously had decided to send troops to Ft. Zeakden, which I (and Algus) seriously doubt he would have.

You see, I agree with what Alazaam said about the Durai report. That the Lion War went down the way it did not because of Delita, but because of the choices that Ramza made. Delita, in my opinion, would have been a very insignificant character without the aid of Ramza and his friends.

And as for whether or not Ovelia (SPOILER) would still have been kidnapped or not, I covered that in my first post. I'm pretty sure that Dycedarg would still have found it a good opportunity to eliminate many of his enemies.

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Originally Posted by Despotus

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Originally Posted by Ramza Beoulve

Actually, if Ramza would have stayed in his brother side, Delita would have died and everything would have gone down.

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I totally agree here. However, as I stated in my horribly long post, I think Delita probably would have died (SPOILER)much earlier in the story then when Fort Zeakden blows up. He might have died in the very first arguement between Algus and Delita outside of Beoulve Castle just after Dycedarg is wounded and Teta is kidnapped, or he might have gone alone (SPOILER)to rescue Teta like Ramza Beoulve said above. Whereas "real" Ramza tells Algus (SPOILER)to get lost, the "Dycedarg-Loyal" Ramza, may have told Delita that he should just leave everything to Dycedarg and his plan to rescue Teta and then destroy the Death Corps at Ft. Zeakden. Delita would probably never have (SPOILER)listened to Ramza's advice here and thus the two friends would have been forever divided.

If Delita decided that (SPOILER)that was a good time to draw a sword on Algus, like he later does, see my above post. But if he just told Ramza (SPOILER)to kiss his butt and then ran off to rescue his sister by himself as my friend Ramza Beoulve said, he would have been killed by the Death Corps (SPOILER)in the attempted solo-rescue. And he never would have been alive to witness the attack if Dycedarg seriously had decided to send troops to Ft. Zeakden, which I (and Algus) seriously doubt he would have.

You see, I agree with what Alazaam said about the Durai report. That the Lion War went down the way it did not because of Delita, but because of the choices that Ramza made. Delita, in my opinion, would have been a very insignificant character without the aid of Ramza and his friends.

And as for whether or not Ovelia (SPOILER) would still have been kidnapped or not, I covered that in my first post. I'm pretty sure that Dycedarg would still have found it a good opportunity to eliminate many of his enemies.

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Yeah, but still...

I also think that Ramza's choices give the story a move, but think about it, if someone else would have kidnapped the princess, she couldn't have been left with Ramza and his friends, and we don't know what could have happen to her.

In other side, in neither Ramza could have done something without Delita, because the position of Delita in some parts of the history moved the strings of Ramza's opinions.

Also, I agree with your opinion about Delita, because Ramza moved the parts Delita needed to take power, if you think in this way though, Ramza was Delita's puppet in his plot to become powerful.

In my hypothesis, both Delita and Ovelia die. Delita would either have died by Ramza's or Algus' sword, or he would have been killed by the Death Corps in an attempt (SPOILER)to rescue Teta. Either way he'd be dead. The original plot Dycedarg had (SPOILER)to kidnap Ovelia and blame it on his enemies the Nanten would have gone ahead as planned without interference from Delita or Ramza. So she would have died by the sword of Nanten's Orlandu (really Gaffgarion) in a very public way (SPOILER)so as to put the blame on his enemies. Then, Gaff would be silenced (killed) by someone from the Hokuten. I am only theorizing of course. I totally agree that all of this would be very unlikely or even impossible because Ramza is an honorable and pure-hearted person. ;)

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Originally Posted by Despotus

In my hypothesis, both Delita and Ovelia die. Delita would either have died by Ramza's or Algus' sword, or he would have been killed by the Death Corps in an attempt (SPOILER)to rescue Teta. Either way he'd be dead. The original plot Dycedarg had (SPOILER)to kidnap Ovelia and blame it on his enemies the Nanten would have gone ahead as planned without interference from Delita or Ramza. So she would have died by the sword of Nanten's Orlandu (really Gaffgarion) in a very public way (SPOILER)so as to put the blame on his enemies. Then, Gaff would be silenced (killed) by someone from the Hokuten. I am only theorizing of course. I totally agree that all of this would be very unlikely or even impossible because Ramza is an honorable and pure-hearted person. ;)

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Yup, it is impossible:)

There are spoilers in my post. If you have not completed Final Fantasy Tactics, do not read my post.

As has been pointed out alot, this couldn't happen because Ramza had Balbanes' sense of justice, which means he'd never stand by as evil was transpiring and just allow it.

But let's say that he did cooperate with Dycedarg.

I think his fate would be similar to that of Izlude.

Think about it.

Izlude was a pawn, which is why his death didn't hinder Vormav's work at all. Sure, they all liked Izlude and didn't want him to die, but when he was aced by the Lucavi, it didn't slow them down even by a few steps. Izlude wasn't a bad guy, either. He may have been with the wrong team, but I honestly feel like he just had a few bad connections and was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I've always considered Izlude to be the equivalent of Ramza, honestly. I mean, they both have a "Z" in their names. And Izlude got mixed up with the wrong group, followed stupid orders and so forth. He probably had conflict in his mind about following the orders, just like Ramza did. But Izlude failed to go with the feeling and simply went along with the orders he was given.

I think Ramza would've ended up the same way. Perhaps Izlude might've taken Ramza's path if Izlude had a friend like Delita who had a sister like Teta and the same things happened to them, and Izlude saw the injustice before him. Ramza may not have been killed, but if he was, I don't think it would've mattered much in their plans. After all, Dycedarg was trying to have him taken out anyway.

I'm certain that someone has some information that will make Izlude seem like "that bad of a guy", but if you think about it, Ramza kills a lot of people too. I don't know if you guys count the randomly named generics as people, but he does kill them in an effort to fix things. Ramza's motives were pure, but that's because he hung on to that conflict I mentioned earlier. Izlude's motives would've been equally as pure had he just followed what seemed right.

It's a real shame Izlude didn't make it out of Riovanes alive. He would've made a great asset to your party.

Ramza probably would have become a holy knight.

What do you think would happen with Wiegraf and Izlude then?

I think they would have continued to serve the Shrine for a while at least. Wiegraf may or may not have (SPOILER)eventually become Velius. It's hard to say because although he was (SPOILER)a suitable body for Velius, it was his hatred and desire for revenge that was the catalyst for (SPOILER)his Lucavi transformation. Without that catalyst, it might never have happened.

As for Izlude, I think he would have continued to serve Vormav, obviously; but perhaps he and Meliadoul would have (SPOILER)changed sides upon discovering the truth about their father and his 'friends'... or been killed (SPOILER)by the Lucavi.

Hmmm.. Sounds good to me.