Jenova & Sephiroth

All manners of information, ranging from GameFAQS Plot Analysis on Final Fantasy VII to Wikipedia's article on Jenova to the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide indicates that Sephiroth’s will won out over Jenova’s and that events that transpired correlate to his own ambitions utilizing Jenova’s powers. This is not only ludicrous, but it is simply a pandering to the legions of Seph fanboys who pollute our humble little world. I provide the one major clear fact in direct opposition to the UOG’s assertions.

1) The Jenova Reunion
As we all saw in Shinra HQ, the container where Jenova’s corpse/body was stored was clearly knocked outwards, leading to the only sensible conclusion that Jenova’s body itself was moving from Shinra to a location of its designation. If the UOG is to be believed, Sephiroth is somehow causing her to do this. He has forced his cosmic viral space monster of immense telepathic, shapeshifting and magical power to emulate his form and murder those in the Headquarters. Now, let’s see this sensibly.


How the flying ##### is Sephiroth doing this? What overwhelming mastery of time and space has he gained in order to reach all the way out of his 5-year rest in Northern Crater and to Midgar and then encourage Jenova to awaken? The answer is simple. HE CAN’T. Sephiroth’s only contact with Jenova was when he ripped her head off in the Mt. Nibel Reactor and then she was still in a dormant state thanks to her cryo-freeze. Is it possible in that time he somehow left a lasting impression on her he would later use to make her his tool? If that’s the case they’re making, then the story is not only weak, it’s downright stupid.

We know from Ifalna’s testament to Professor Gast that Jenova possesses a predatory power to conceal her true form, take on the appearance of another (the Cetra, Sephiroth) and not only reach into their mind to pry away pieces of their memory and persona to help feed it intentions, but also implant fake memories and construct fake persona in others. This skill was utilized against the Cetra and effectively fooled them all till it was too late. Sephiroth, being composed primarily of Jenova Cells by which Jenova can activate her mental powers, is just as susceptible if not more so to her influence on his mind.

Presumably, when Jenova awakened and called upon her seemingly infinite reach to anything that has even the most minuscule portion of her in it, she found Sephiroth, her best chance at accomplishing her viral instinct to multiply, infect and destroy. Thus, she took on his likeness and utilized his powers. One can make a weak argument that at this time when she attempted to use him, he somehow transplanted his own will (which does not physically exist in her at all) his own genuine will over the mimicked will and persona Jenova had adopted. It’s not like she really absorbed his personality or powers. She is replicating them and it is a pretty flawed concept to say that Sephiroth somehow took control of this fake personality she copied to obtain dominance over her.

When Jenova came upon the Cetra, she took on a guise as one of them, using their own minds and thoughts against them while simultaneously shaping herself both physically and mentally like them, basically adopting the collective persona and memories of the Cetra as comoflage while she infected them. The conclusion is that Jenova did the same with Sephiroth after awakening. She felt her cells in him, used her influence and spawned a copy of both Sephiroth’s powers, personality and looks over her own body for her purposes. This makes complete sense as her physical influence in his body and her own ability to utilize every piece of her used collectively make it very probable whereas Sephiroth somehow enacting any sort of his own true will over her is illogical to the extreme.

Yet another counter argument filled with holes is that “Jenova and everyone ‘came’ to Sephiroth.” Well, my dearest fanboy, the reason they went to Sephiroth is because Sephiroth is in what appears to be a hibernation in Northern Crater. Jenova and the ‘clones’ of Sephiroth with Jenova Cells went to him because it is logical. They are mobile and he Is not. Also, Jenova might be seeking the gathered Lifestream there through her apparent instinctive knowledge as how best to corrupt and infect. So, yeah, Jenova and the others went to Sephiroth because they could all move and Jenova sensed the power of Northern Crater which is entirely in Jenova’s power as er power does indeed seem nearly limitless. Plus, her head was still in the Crater, if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty.

The final counter-argument with any possible chance is that Sephiroth diffused his will into Lifestream when he was taking his long bath on the way to his new big hole in the ground he called home. There is zero evidence of this if he did and more importantly, there is no indication Jenova’s body/corpse ever came in contact with either Lifestream or Mako while in Shinra HQ.

All throughout the game the Sephiroth persona emulated by Jenova seeks to become a ‘god’ yet the probability the Planet would survive is about 1% and this massive destruction is Jenova’s intent. Also, if the Planet did survive and Jenova stayed with Sephiroth at its core as the energy of the Planet flowed into them and basically made them the Planet, then it would serve Jenova’s purpose because now she would have en entire planet infected to its core and have a planetary ship with which to find new planets to infect thereby coinciding with her viral nature.

This is all I have to say on the subject and any reasonable counters to it are welcome. ##### like “OMG! But Seph is so much cooler111!!!” is not a reasonable counter for you Sephiroth fanboy blockheads.

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QUOTES IN SUPPORT OF HER POWER
Ifalna:
"He first approached as a friend, deceived them,..."
"That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead
mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."

Solidly proving Jenova's ability not only to seize upon memories of others but also alter its appearance.

Hojo:
"Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building."

As stated by his Reunion Theory, Jenova was moving to gather all its pieces and become one once more.

'Sephiroth':
"Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice,
and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa'smemories, creating you. Out of Tifa's memory....."


I prove all these quotes as teastamonial to Jenova's power. I doubt there is any definite quote to prove Jenova to be the one truly in power, butI feel I've proved my point fairly.

It's a...game? :cat: :confused:

Well, I haven't really thought about it that much, so meh. :cat:

You know it is just a game.

Thanks for adding a lot of insight and food-for-thought to the topic, guys. You've definitely come here with some fancy and powerful words and ideas to contribute. Do post more of your ingenius rhetoric.

Fine, fine.

Though it still is open to speculation (as are alot of things in this game, although maybe due to the english translation) I think that JENOVA being in control would be a better 'plot twist'. Still, it doesn't really matter now...Nice points, though.

Besides, it really isn't something to lose sleep over. :cat: :)

First of all, starting off an argument or a debate with the term 'pandering to legions of Seph fanboys' is hardly going to win you over any aid or support. Second, there is a reason why respected sites such as Wikipedia, Gamefaqs, the Omega Guide, the FFVII game itself, and even Advent Children state that Sephiroth is the true villain of FFVII. You can cry and whine about it, and the fact that he is loved as a villain so much, but nothing changes that fact. The only grey area is exactly how he accomplished this during the game, and many people and sites believe differently. But the one fact remains, Sephiroth was the main villain of the game.

In the time of the Cetra, Jenova was a powerful alien entity. She came from another world looking to destroy the Planet, and she was eventually stopped by the Cetra. During this time, we know that she has certain abilities - like changing her shape and form. By the time FFVII actually started, Jenova was in a completely dormant state. Now, the Jenova Reunion is a concept where all of Jenova's cells will one day reunite and she will be reborn, however, locked in stasis (and without a head - which we'll get to in a moment), there was no expanding will from her form to begin this process.

A few years back in the Nibelheim incident, Cloud defeated Sephiroth, and he fell into the Lifestream along with Jenova's head. As explained in the Temple of the Ancients segment, Sephiroth spent that time 'traversing the lifestream and learning the powers of the ancients'. What power do the ancients, or Cetra as they are also known, possess? Well, we know that they can commune with the Planet, that it is their power contained within Materia, and more importantly, we know that they can leave behind their consciousness in a physical form as displayed by the Cetra forms left behind to guard the Temple. The only reason that they could no longer speak, as explained by Aeris, is because so many years have passed and they have forgotten how.

So, Sephiroth has the power to project himself and he has Jenova's head. As we know, Sephiroth's dying body eventually landed in the Northern Crater. Aside from learning about the ancient's power, he also learned about his 'Mother' Jenova and her true goal. She wanted to destroy the Planet. Advent Children even furthered this as Sephiroth explained that Jenova had wanted to ride the Planet's rotten carcass to other worlds in order to destroy. That was what the original Jenova Reunion was all about. However, we know that this was not what Sephiroth himself had planned.

Going back a little, we know that Jenova's cells all pull together from her will in order to reform herself, however, from all displays and explanations in the game, Sephiroth's will was far too powerful for this, and he ended up manipulating her. Instead of her reunion, Sephiroth was going to use the reunion of her cells, and more importantly, the calling of Meteor, to bring the Planet to near destruction. This very act would cause a massive surge in the Lifestream - right at the Northern Crater - which, if you remember, is exactly where Sephiroth is. He was going to use this chance to absorb his spirit into the Lifestream and 'become a God'. This was never Jenova's intention, or thought - she just wanted to destroy the Planet, and again fuels the reason why Sephiroth himself was in control.

Right. Going back to the Jenova changing her shape and form this is shown during the game. On three seperate occassions, Sephiroth flies away from the group and leaves behind a piece of Jenova for them to fight (which transforms it's shape into Life, Death and Rebirth).

Speaking of Jenova Rebirth, there is a very good reason for this last name of her. Many believe that she used the partial cells of those gathered in the Northern Crater to create a partial rebirth of herself. That was her final act and battle in the game, after which, her role is moved on to Advent Children (as since the battle took place deep in the Northern Crater) her cells got distributed amongst the Lifestream, causing the Geostigma during the film.

The final, undeniable argument, is that the final boss of the game is Sephiroth. The group fight him as a whole, and then, Cloud fights a final battle (whether you believe it was a mental or a physical one) with him.

So there you have it, pretty strong evidence to counter what you say. Either way, if so many people, and the producer and script writer of the game, say that Sephiroth is the main villain, then you'll just have to deal with it I'm afraid...

First of all, I won't deal with what the makers of the game say because the whole FFVII franchise is whoremongering to fans of the game which number in the overrated millions. It's sad, really, that such a game has such a cult following it so does not deserve. And, if your bit about "Sephiroth was the final boss makes him the main villain" bit is right, then Necron was the main villain of FFIX. Shocking.

There are several key points to counter your argument that he can project his consciousness. For one, if he is controlling her, how come at certain scenes does it seem like he is completely unaware of things that Sephiroth should know? Such as who Cloud is, and as we aaw on the Cargo Ship, "Sephiroth" clearly did not recognize Cloud. If he's sending his mind out to domineer Jenova's body, why is he so ignorant of this?

To top that, there is no point to a Jenova Reunion if all Sephiroth wants is the Black Materia. All the people in black were following "the great Sephiroth..." because the Jenova Cells were controlling their minds. Why bother to revive the body of Jenova and not just send one of them to retrive his precious Ultimate Destructive Magic? Seems kinda stupid to me.

Then there's the final bit that Sephiroth's intent to "become a god" is utterly flawed. It makes more sense that it was Jenova's will because even the brainless heroes know Meteor will annihilate the Planet and thus, Sephiroth's godhood wouldn't really last long. To the contrary, Jenova's intent to infect the Planet and make the whole Planet her body to travel throughout the galaxy and corrupt other worlds is very indicative of her nature which is distinctly viral.

To conclude, the power to infiltrate another's mind is the power of Jenova and Jenova alone. There is nothing said Sephiroth possesses mind alteration powers. Projecting his consciousness does not really make it said that he can actually imprint it over an existing one. The Cetra were never said to have such a skill and there is no hint that Seph did either. It IS said that Jenova can do it and thus, her erecting a Sephiroth persona to gain his powers to achieve her own goals far surpasses the Sephiroth mastery of the mind theory. Jenova suddenly became active when a person with her cells was so close to her is no coincidence. I don't think Sephiroth was very aware of the fact Cloud had just strolled into Shinra HQ unless your giving him godmoding skills.

The logic of Sephiroth's will overriding his mother's is flawed because even in AC, Jenova is the one clearly in control. I don't like the movie because it is made just to pander to fanboys and rake in money, but there are several quotes in the film that lead more to a Jenova is more powerful than Sephiroth and is the master villain idea.

Now, this is not my own post. It's by a guy named Athrun who far outweighs even me in ability to explain Jenova and Sephiroth's relationship.

ATHRUN: Lol, here we go again. Might as well practice my typing skills.
Well first off, Wikipedia can be edited by anyone. And directors and writers often don't see eye to eye when it comes to some portions of the story. In Gundam Seed for example, the director claims that Kira "never really liked Fllay, or Lacus" which is obviously bs, and not at all what the writer portrayed to us.

The main problem with Sephiroth even being remotely close to outmatch his orginal, of whom he is a mear copy, is that nowhere in the game was any sort of power struggle between Jenova and Sephiroth portrayed to us. If that's actually a major part of the story, why was no power struggle shown then? And then why would Sephiroth do all this "to be with her" if he competes against her? That doesn't make sense at all.
You'd think that they'd explain his powers and that Jenova was alive and active if this was the case.
No, instead, we do know of Jenova's malicious intent straight from the game (Ifalna), and that she is a very real threat, who works from behind the scenes.
It all begins, and ends with Jenova. It all started when she came crashing down into the Northern Crater. The Cetra managed to defeat her with the final strength they had before almost being completely exctinct from her manipulation powers.
And many years later, her plan to take over the world is carried on by someone willing to do anything for her, while never having even met her. Again, the same thing happens in Advent Children, where three white haired Jenova clones long for nothing more than to be with their mother, just like Sephiroth did several years ago. Just a coinsidense? I doubt it.

*Advent Children spoilers*
As for there being no definite quote regarding Jenova's will and powers, I think there is. There are several in Advent Children. In fact, it's all about Jenova's will and her powers all the way through. Not Sephiroth.
Kadaj states that their powers are granted to them from Mother. And once the children drink from the water, they gain the same cat like eyes as Sephiroth, Kadaj, Looz and Yazoo, and Cloud has when the Jenova cells within him are active, and suddenly they are all acting like controlled puppets.
Kadaj also says that Jenova will chose between him and Sephiroth at the Reunion, and he wonders if she will pick him over Sephiroth. But he seems to believe that it will be Sephiroth, yet he isn't sure. He hopes for a different outcome.

But here's the main one I think you'll find interesting.
When Cloud confronts Kadaj (holding Jenova's head).

Cloud: "What will happen now?"
Kadaj: "Mother will tell you!"
Cloud: "So, the body of spirits doesn't know anything huh?"
Kadaj: "I'm just a puppet after all"
Kadaj: "But once.... so where you!"

After this scene, Kadaj fuses with Jenova's head and says that he will show us his "Reuinion".
In FF7 Hojo said that the Reunion is meant for Jenova to be complete again. So this is Jenova.
And the phyisical manifistation that appears before Cloud is... surprise surprise, none other than Sephiroth.
He speaks to Cloud of their plans and goals. But Kadaj said "Mother will tell you" And from that, we can only assume that this was done by her powers, because she allowed for Sephiroth to return. And it would also seem that while they are still two individuals, they seem to share the same body. Reunion is about making Jenova complete after all.*/spoilers*

In FF7 the game, when they were close to the Northern Crater and the "Sephiroth ghost vanished in front of them", Cloud said this.

QUOTE
Cloud: Jenova's cells... ...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova
Reunion...

Tifa: Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?

Note that this whole time, they have been following only one person I can think of. The Sephiroth ghost. And according to Cloud and Tifa here, it would seem that it was not Sephiroth they were chasing after all, but Jenova.
After all, it is Jenova's ability to manipulate and control people, shapeshift, and whatnot. No where in the game was it explained how Sephiroth would somehow magically be able to do this as well.
And there is no reason to believe that Jenova would not manipulate Sephiroth, when we know that she definitely can.

In Nibelheim 5 years ago, Sephiroth started acting like a madman once he first got close to Jenova. He burnt down the village and pretty much acted exactly as Ifalna had described the Cetra race doing after being controlled by Jenova.
There's also another interesting thing that many people seem to overlook.
Sephiroth thought at first that he was a Cetra. But why was this implemented into the story?
Because the next time we see him, he already knows the truth. So why the deception? What was the point of Sephiroth thinking he was a Cetra, only that one time 5 years ago, when it seemingly didn't lead to anything in the story?
I think it's pretty obvious. Sephiroth needed to believe that Jenova was in the right to reclaim the planet. To believe that he was on a path of righteousness. Otherwise, winning him over wouldn't be that easy, concidering that Sephiroth was a "goodguy" and even a hero, up until that point.
But believing in Jenova's lies, and feeling this un natural longing to be with his mother and fullfill her plans, to take revange on the planet, just like the other three from Advent Children suddenly do, he went and got her from the reactor. And after this, he was no longer the same Sephiroth. That is exactly what Zack said when confronting him in the anime OVA, and Sephiroth had those cat like eyes. A testament to Jenova's controll over him.

Next, Cloud "killed him" and threw him and Jenova into the reactor.
But the next time you see "Sephiroth", he strangely doesn't remember who Cloud is.
To say that Sephiroth forgot all the missions him and Zack were sent out to in Before Crisis, and the person who "killed him" even after hearing his name, but remembering everything else, seems very farfetched to me. However, Jenova would not know Cloud or how he knows Sephiroth, because as much as she prows into his memories, all she would be able to find are his memories from after the incident. Reason being that Cloud surpressed his memories, and developed amnesia. This is why Jenova/Sephiroth seems convinced that Cloud is nothing but a puppet, created after the incident.

Also, the reason the Sephiroth "clones" (who aren't actually clones. Only people who went through the same procedure as those in SOLDIER, namely being exposed to Mako energy and Jenova cells, as Cloud explains on Disc 3) are being drawn to Sephiroth, is because they are being manipulated, just like Sephiroth was 5 years ago.
These people obviously have no affiliation with Jenova, but they all seem to look up to Sephiroth. He was famous after all. And most likely, all of these people are former SOLDIER, and that would explain why they care for him so much, and why every other SOLDIER is seemingly missing from the game.

This is why the person who broke Jenova free from the Shinra building had the appearance of Sephiroth. It got the word out that "Sephiroth had returned" and the cloaked men started to move towards the Northern Crater because of this. If they heard Jenova was back, I doubt they'd be as easy to manipulate. There were so many of them after all. So why not let them be drawn to Sephiroth instead? The end result is the same.
Jenova would get her "Reunion" and be able to take revenge on the planet for what it did to her.
Sephiroth's lower body was missing. And Jenova's body was missing it's head.
And then we see a boss like Bizzaro Sephiroth. It's probably the result of the Reunion. Sephiroth and Jenova "becoming one", as he said they would be.
But regarding the Shinra Building incident, it was obviously Jenova's doing, and not Sephiroth.
Is it just a coincidence that it happens now, after all these years, and just as Cloud comes into contact with Jenova? I highly doubt it. This happened right after Cloud got close to her, and as a result his head started hurting. After they were thrown into their cells, Cloud woke up with his prison door unlocked, and the blood trail starts from there. This makes me wonder if it was actually Cloud who did all of this. It's not impossible, concidering that Jenova could have him appears as Sephiroth if she wants to, *Advent Children spoilers* and also have a Masamune sword materialise out of nothing. (Shown in Advent Children) */spoilers*
The "Sephiroth ghost" who can shapeshift, fly and walk through walls once appeared as Tifa in the Nothern Crater to fool us into giving Cloud the black materia, and then vanished like a ghost. This makes it seem as if Jenova can make people see what is not really there. Most likely, it is usually a tattooed man in front of us. But instead of seeing him we see Sephiroth instead, or even Tifa. The same thing could have happened to Cloud in the Shinra building, for those around him who saw the Shinra President being stabbed to death.

And the fact that this "Sephiroth ghost" was so concerned about Aeris, the final remaining Cetra, enough to kill her before she could finish what she started, is also an indication of Jenova's will. The Cetra were the ones that eventually defeated her and put her in this state. She hates them, and is probably afraid of the same thing happening again, so she had Aeris killed.

There's a lot more to this, but basically I agree with your post. Sephiroth gaining all of these super powers, and Jenova being alive as we already know, and doing nothing when we know that she can, sounds far to vague and farfetched to me. *Advent Children spoilers* And Advent Children confirmed Jenova's will and her powers, and that she is the one pulling the strings, as many of us suspected she also did in FF7. */spoilers*

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

First of all, I won't deal with what the makers of the game say because the whole FFVII franchise is whoremongering to fans of the game which number in the overrated millions. It's sad, really, that such a game has such a cult following it so does not deserve.

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Oh of course. Let's completely forget about the actual makers of the game, just because it doesn't suit your own personal opinion. And your second statement makes it quite clear your reasoning behind this thread in the first place. You are just sick of the cult status that this game has, and the many fans of Sephiroth, so are trying to find a way to undermind the character. Now that is sad.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

And, if your bit about "Sephiroth was the final boss makes him the main villain" bit is right, then Necron was the main villain of FFIX. Shocking.

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That was only one furthering aspect of my entire argument. Read my entire post.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

There are several key points to counter your argument that he can project his consciousness. For one, if he is controlling her, how come at certain scenes does it seem like he is completely unaware of things that Sephiroth should know? Such as who Cloud is, and as we aaw on the Cargo Ship, "Sephiroth" clearly did not recognize Cloud. If he's sending his mind out to domineer Jenova's body, why is he so ignorant of this?

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Play the game. Sephiroth barely, and I mean barely new Cloud. After wandering in the Lifestream and absorbing the knowledge and wisdom of the ancients, when he finally started projecting himself back out into the World once more, he didn't instantly recognise Cloud. It was Zack who he had the major fight with, Cloud just came up behind and stabbed him.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

To top that, there is no point to a Jenova Reunion if all Sephiroth wants is the Black Materia. All the people in black were following "the great Sephiroth..." because the Jenova Cells were controlling their minds. Why bother to revive the body of Jenova and not just send one of them to retrive his precious Ultimate Destructive Magic? Seems kinda stupid to me.

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The Jenova Reunion is an instinctive process. It's a natural instinct for all the cells to be reunited. All the people in black were heading towards Sephiroth, not Jenova herself, because he was in control.

What? Sephiroth never revived the body of Jenova. That was her own doing. And that's exactly what he did. He manipulated Cloud into getting the Black Materia for him, and then to hand it over towards the end of the game, so I have no idea what you mean there.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Then there's the final bit that Sephiroth's intent to "become a god" is utterly flawed. It makes more sense that it was Jenova's will because even the brainless heroes know Meteor will annihilate the Planet and thus, Sephiroth's godhood wouldn't really last long. To the contrary, Jenova's intent to infect the Planet and make the whole Planet her body to travel throughout the galaxy and corrupt other worlds is very indicative of her nature which is distinctly viral.

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Jenova's plan was never to use the Lifestream and become a God. Never. Not once in the entire game is there a quote or instance to prove this. She just wanted to destroy the Planet and use it as a vessel to head to over far-off Planets and destroy them. This was why she summoned Meteor all those years before. Sephiroth used her original idea and expanded upon it. Knowing the Lifestream energy that would surface in such a catastrophic event, he could merge with it and become a God.

And you say that his Godhood wouldn't last long, but you are forgetting that aspects of the story (like Jenova and the Cetra) expand beyond the Planet. Sephiroth's Godhood could have seen him God of the universe. He didn't give a damn about that Planet and what happened to it.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

To conclude, the power to infiltrate another's mind is the power of Jenova and Jenova alone. There is nothing said Sephiroth possesses mind alteration powers. Projecting his consciousness does not really make it said that he can actually imprint it over an existing one. The Cetra were never said to have such a skill and there is no hint that Seph did either. It IS said that Jenova can do it and thus, her erecting a Sephiroth persona to gain his powers to achieve her own goals far surpasses the Sephiroth mastery of the mind theory. Jenova suddenly became active when a person with her cells was so close to her is no coincidence. I don't think Sephiroth was very aware of the fact Cloud had just strolled into Shinra HQ unless your giving him godmoding skills.

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No one said that Sephiroth himself possessed mind-altering powers. He used [b]Jenova's influence[b], to use the cells within Cloud to manipulate him.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

The logic of Sephiroth's will overriding his mother's is flawed because even in AC, Jenova is the one clearly in control. I don't like the movie because it is made just to pander to fanboys and rake in money, but there are several quotes in the film that lead more to a Jenova is more powerful than Sephiroth and is the master villain idea.

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It really doesn't matter if you think it's flawed for Sephiroth to gain control of Jenova in both the game and the film, as that's what the game itself, the creators, and the majority of fans know as truth.

Sorry, but you just have to deal with that.

I will argue what the makers and the fans say is "the truth" because it's a relatively simple fact that they go with what sells and what operates on fanbase. They'll appeal to the fans and lovers of the game. it's called pandering and it sells. Simple business concepts here.

Before the battle with Jenova DEATH in the Whirlwind Maze, "Sephiroth" says this is the end of this body's usefulness. Of course you can interpret that as "I will now become god-dude!" But, it ties in very much with the Jenova theory of her being the one in control because she wouldn't need his shapeshifted form anymore now that she had brought all her parts back together and her Reunion was complete.

The majoirty of FFVIi fans are clueless drones who shout "Sephiroth is zomg best villain ever!!!11" Even Sephiroth fans acknowledge that. Sephiroth learned power and wisdom of the Ancients but yeah dude, he doesn't have the skill to reach out of his cacoon and take over his mother's mind. Again, the timing was too oppertune. Sephirtoh just decides to do it then when Cloud is near Jenova? As soon as he looked at her, his head began to ache. Jenova was drawing on the strength of her cells in him to help revive herself. But, of course, this all magically ties in with Sephiroth's ingenius plan.

And, next time, don't resort to cheap taunts like "read my whole post." Because I read it all and disagree with it all. Especially the part where you claimed that I said Jenova wanted to become a god. I never said that. i said Sephiroth wanted to become a god and Jenova just wanted to assume the Planet as her body. Sephiroth's entire plan was just fitting in with the fake persona Jenova created herself.

The one thing you have to realize is, you draw your entire argument from ONE line in the game. Yet, all throughout the game, we hear repeated accounts of Jenova's powers. It goes on for quite some time on the second disc in particular. So, you base your argument on something overlooked and I base mine on facts clearly and consistantly stated throughout the game. You take one line and justify it as Sephiroth was the one in control, and that is simply born of your perception of that line. It's not stated and yet, we do hear many statements and testaments to Jenova's own abilities. Sorry, but I'll go with the facts and not just conjecture by you.

You know what, I'm not going to bother with an indepth response to that. I told you to read my whole post because you attempted to form a weak argument that my entire debate hinged on the fact that Sephiroth was the final boss that you encounter, and you attempted to make a huge issue out of it. Now that's cheap.

I draw my argument? Excuse me but don't you mean, me, the game writers, producers, and legions of fans draw this argument? It seems to me that you are in a minority here. Not to mention, you state that it's all from one line, but the events and further dialogue of the game, film and other official resources say otherwise.

But hey, believe what you will. I'm just going to leave it at that... :)

hERE.

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I told you to read my whole post because you attempted to form a weak argument that my entire debate hinged on the fact that Sephiroth was the final boss that you encounter, and you attempted to make a huge issue out of it. Now that's cheap.

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I made one line on it, dude. I did not disregard your entire thesis and claim I was right because you said the fact was Sephiroth the main villain. i just commented on it in one line of a much more than one-line post.

You don't have to debate with me, but the fact of the matters is your entire argument hinges onto your interpretation of one line in the game and speculation of later scenes in relation to that quote. My argument draws on factual quotes throughout the entire game and in AC to prove itself. I just feel mine is a bit more solid. I think you can understand that and any other logic-using being can as well.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

You don't have to debate with me, but the fact of the matters is your entire argument hinges onto your interpretation of one line in the game and speculation of later scenes in relation to that quote. My argument draws on factual quotes throughout the entire game and in AC to prove itself. I just feel mine is a bit more solid. I think you can understand that and any other logic-using being can as well.

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Originally Posted by Amaru

I draw my argument? Excuse me but don't you mean, me, the game writers, producers, and legions of fans draw this argument? It seems to me that you are in a minority here. Not to mention, you state that it's all from one line, but the events and further dialogue of the game, film and other official resources say otherwise.

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:)

You love democracy, don't you? The person who doesn't agree with what the large group of persons says is wrong. "I'm right because I say so and so does everyone else." That's really respectable.

Well, I think it's even less respectable to try and go against everything that the original creators and writers of the game have said, say that they are wrong, and then turn around and say that you are right. But hey, that's just me. Again, I really don't want to get into a huge argument about this. You are obviously steadfast in your believes, even if they contradict everyone else.

Heres my take. Jenova wants to destroy the planet, Sephiroth wants to become a god. While Sephiroth wouldn't want that originally, Jenova had manipulated him. However it is possible his will prevailed, however was still partailly under Jenova's influence, making them a Joint being with Sephiroth in more controll then Jenova. Since Jenova and Sephiroth would become one, Sephiroth becoming a God would indead make Jenova a God and destroy the planet in turn, being able to use the planets corpse and travel the Galaxy. That conclusion fits in with both the ambitions of Sephiroth and Jenova, but Sephiroth having more control would make him the head villian. Thats my take on the story, and No, I'm not a Seph fan boy, Im a Kuja and Kefka fanboy.

Well, I dunno, I follow FF7 closely, and lots of BOTH arguments seem valid to me.

As far as I know, none of the ORIGINAL writers of FF7 have given a definitive statement of the story.

Personally, it makes more sense to me that Jenova would be in some sort of control, perhaps using Sephiroth as a puppet. One main factor being the fact that Jenova is an ancient, mystical, otherworldly being, having lived for many years, wiping out entire cultures (Cetra) in the process. The idea that this powerful being would succumb so easily to a human with a few cells injected in during the pregnancy seems laughable to me.

Gotta go back to uni, might return l8r and expand on my reasonings.

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Originally Posted by gyaku_zuki

Personally, it makes more sense to me that Jenova would be in some sort of control, perhaps using Sephiroth as a puppet. One main factor being the fact that Jenova is an ancient, mystical, otherworldly being, having lived for many years, wiping out entire cultures (Cetra) in the process. The idea that this powerful being would succumb so easily to a human with a few cells injected in during the pregnancy seems laughable to me.

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Sorry, just had to counter this. So is it also laughable that a bunch of misfit humans, on a quest to save the Planet no less, stopped Meteor, defeated this so called 'powerful being', defeated Sephiroth and, you know, saved the very Planet? ;)

Touche, although they had a powerful being on their side, namely Aeris and the Planet, who really stopped meteor.

Lol. Sorry, I just had to make the point that the main heroes and characters of FF are normal human beings (for the most part) who manage to overcome all obstacles and defeat these so called 'uber-powerful villains'. So they really couldn't be all that 'uber' as they first appeared to be.

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Originally Posted by gyaku_zuki

Personally, it makes more sense to me that Jenova would be in some sort of control, perhaps using Sephiroth as a puppet.

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if you look closely when fighting BIZZARO Sephiroth it looks alot like the Jenova portion is holding the Sephiroth portion like a puppet ironically

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Originally Posted by Griff

if you look closely when fighting BIZZARO Sephiroth it looks alot like the Jenova portion is holding the Sephiroth portion like a puppet ironically

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Ironic? Perhaps. True? No. The game writers have made the point clear.

It's too bad they never translate those Ultimania's. I have a feeling this wouldn't be happening right now if they did. Ah well. :cat:

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Originally Posted by Amaru

Ironic? Perhaps. True? No. The game writers have made the point clear.

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Like has been said before, the writer's are going to tell the people what they want if it will help business. Since a vast majority of fans want to believe that emo momma's boy is the greatest villian of all time, the idea of him being controlled would tarnish his image, and alot of people don't want that. If the people aren't led to believe afterwards that Sephy was the main villian, then sales of AC, BC, CC, and DC will drop because ff7 has the largest fanboy totals in the world, and if they don't get what they want, you just know alot of them are going to boycott the other projects.

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Originally Posted by Griff

Like has been said before, the writer's are going to tell the people what they want if it will help business. Since a vast majority of fans want to believe that emo momma's boy is the greatest villian of all time, the idea of him being controlled would tarnish his image, and alot of people don't want that. If the people aren't led to believe afterwards that Sephy was the main villian, then sales of AC, BC, CC, and DC will drop because ff7 has the largest fanboy totals in the world, and if they don't get what they want, you just know alot of them are going to boycott the other projects.

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I think it's rather sad. At first, I just thought that you were misguided and misinformed, since you tried throwing non-existent plot holes about the game around, but now it's quite clear that you're another of the 'anti-everything FFVII' camp. You don't give the game any credits, you don't give the main villain any credit, you don't give any of it's fans any credit, and you don't even give the game writer's any credit.

Like I said, I think it's rather sad...

I think both arguments make valid points. And honestly, out of the three villains in the FFVII world (ShinRa, Sephiroth, and JENOVA), I believe JENOVA to be the bigger threat.

But, Sephiroth WAS the main villain. The party focuses almost entirely on Sephiroth and his plan to destroy the planet with Meteor, and NOT on JENOVA. Sure, JENOVA may have been a bigger threat, but she was not as focused on as Sephiroth was.

It is my belief that both Seph and JENOVA had different goals. This is ultimately what differentiates the two. Seph wanted to gather all of the energy from the Lifestream and become a god. JENOVA's intentions were simply to just destroy and move on to another planet.

Apart from most likely having the ability to control Seph, I didn't think JENOVA was very proactive towards her cause throughout the course of the story. If she did, in fact, control Sephiroth, why would he formulate this new plan of his which seemed to differ from her ultimate intentions? My point is, Seph took action, and was featured much more prominently throughout the course of the game, making him the main focus and ultimately the main villain.

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Originally Posted by Amaru

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Originally Posted by Griff

Like has been said before, the writer's are going to tell the people what they want if it will help business. Since a vast majority of fans want to believe that emo momma's boy is the greatest villian of all time, the idea of him being controlled would tarnish his image, and alot of people don't want that. If the people aren't led to believe afterwards that Sephy was the main villian, then sales of AC, BC, CC, and DC will drop because ff7 has the largest fanboy totals in the world, and if they don't get what they want, you just know alot of them are going to boycott the other projects.

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I think it's rather sad. At first, I just thought that you were misguided and misinformed, since you tried throwing non-existent plot holes about the game around, but now it's quite clear that you're another of the 'anti-everything FFVII' camp. You don't give the game any credits, you don't give the main villain any credit, you don't give any of it's fans any credit, and you don't even give the game writer's any credit.

Like I said, I think it's rather sad...

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And it seems to me that you give the game TOO MUCH credit, you give the makers TOO MUCH credit, you give the fanboys/girls/n00bs TOO MUCH credit and... yeah, you get the idea.

And while I'm not from the "anti-VII camp" I certainly don't think is something to be exited about. Won't go in depth. So don't start asking why I dislike it. Cause that's off-topic.

Excuse me? When did I hail the game as the best? When did I hail Sephiroth as the greatest villain of all time? When did I hail FFVII fans as the best group out there? The only insight into myself that you have here is me defending the game against people making up plot holes and denying the main villain.

Next time perhaps you should read posts properly before being so judgemental about people.

What a nice, calm thread :p

Really Amaru, you should keep an open mind. There are valid points on both sides of this discussion, and like I said before, none of the original writers have definitively said ANYTHING conclusive about the storyline. So I wouldn't use them as fact.

Denying the main villain? What, is he gonna be INSULTED? Let's all remember its just a game, lets not get all fanboy/girl on ppl.

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Originally Posted by gyaku_zuki

What a nice, calm thread :p

Really Amaru, you should keep an open mind. There are valid points on both sides of this discussion, and like I said before, none of the original writers have definitively said ANYTHING conclusive about the storyline. So I wouldn't use them as fact.

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Of course you wouldn't, as your dead set on Jenova being classed as the main villain, whether the official writers, official resources, or anyone else says otherwise. ;)

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Originally Posted by gyaku_zuki

Denying the main villain? What, is he gonna be INSULTED? Let's all remember its just a game, lets not get all fanboy/girl on ppl.

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Look up 'denying' in the dictionary. Your denying the fact that Sephiroth was the main villain of the game by directly stating that Jenova was. That's hardly fanboy material. It's simple logic. :p

Anyway, I dont think there is any definate answers to this question, the writers have left some areas pretty open ended to guess, but not to many that would sink the main plot like silent hill. Credit to the writers on that.
Sephy is usually refered on the whole more as the target, So I would say he is a main villain, with Jenova being a more descrite villain, Probably more "evil" or whatever, but the fact she operates away from the spotlight doesn't make her the main target of the Clouds conquest and thus, not the main villain.
Then there is the point, Its NEVER stated how Jenova felt towards Sephy, if anything at all. Square may have intended her to not care one atom about him but to further her own plan, she may well have not cared about using him or killing him, As long as she got what she wanted, she may well of been using Sephy, Seeing how deluded and mad he is, I dont think he would actually known.

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Originally Posted by Amaru

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Originally Posted by Griff

Like has been said before, the writer's are going to tell the people what they want if it will help business. Since a vast majority of fans want to believe that emo momma's boy is the greatest villian of all time, the idea of him being controlled would tarnish his image, and alot of people don't want that. If the people aren't led to believe afterwards that Sephy was the main villian, then sales of AC, BC, CC, and DC will drop because ff7 has the largest fanboy totals in the world, and if they don't get what they want, you just know alot of them are going to boycott the other projects.

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I think it's rather sad. At first, I just thought that you were misguided and misinformed, since you tried throwing non-existent plot holes about the game around, but now it's quite clear that you're another of the 'anti-everything FFVII' camp. You don't give the game any credits, you don't give the main villain any credit, you don't give any of it's fans any credit, and you don't even give the game writer's any credit.

Like I said, I think it's rather sad...

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I think it's rather sad that you've already started on the petty insults. It usually takes a few pages for that to happen in these kinds of debates. As for my "non-existant plot holes", I just use the ones I find to be most discussed on internet forums such as this one. So far your best excuses to them have been, someone must have recovered Masamune from the Lifestream and used it to kill the president (i might add you conveniently dodged my point on Sephiroth being the only one able to use the blade, as said directly in the game), Weapon attacked Mideel because all humans were seen as harming the planet (so apparently killing off a town of 15 people does more good for the planet than taking out who knows how many in places like Gold Saucer)
and Sephiroth's will took control of Jenova and broke out of ShinRa (hense the whole argument in this thread). Alot of the things you've said about who did what in this game as been simple theories. Let me explain something to you. When an element of the story cannot be directly proven by any means other than theories, it is a PLOT HOLE . And also, incase you didn't notice in the other thread we were in, I listed FF7 as being just as good a game as all the other Final Fantasies other than FF2. I loved this game, I just call things as I see them. I'm not "anti-everything FF7". I give the game credit where it deserves. Just because I don't like Sephiroth doesn't mean I don't give him credit as a main villian. I never said he wasn't. Sin is the main villian in FFX but it's still being controlled. Why is it so hard to believe that it could be the same case for Sephy? I don't give any credit to the fan(boy/girl)s of the game because they refuse to look at the story rationally and logically, and quite frankly they won't care about what I say anyways, so why should I give them credit? And as for the writers, take it from someone who has been studying business his whole life, if anything is going to help a company make money, as long as it's legal, anyone working for the company is going to exploit it as best they can. It may not always be the most honest practice, but it is one of the most common.

In case you hadn't noticed, which you obviously haven't, your emo momma's boy and fanboys comments were what started the petty insults.

I never said someone recovered the Masamune. I said that Sephiroth recovered his own weapon. Sephiroth took control of Jenova's body to gain a physical form. Which part of this do you not quite understand?

Weapon attacked indescriminately. Look up the word in the dictionary. It didn't matter who or where it was attacking. The fact was, humanity itself was seen as a huge threat to the Planet. This isn't a theory here, it's stated explicitely within the game itself.

Sephiroth gaining control of Jenova is seen countless times within the game, not to mention, explained again and again in countless official places, that you keep ignoring by making up a really petty excuse by saying that they are pandering to the fans. Seriously, how petty can you get?

Lastly. Just take a look at the guide itself. You can continue not to believe in one shred of it all you like, but it's official and it's explained within the game itself if you look. So go cry, whine, or whatever else you want to do. It's official, it's explained, it's no plot hole. ;)

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html

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Originally Posted by Amaru

In case you hadn't noticed, which you obviously haven't, your emo momma's boy and fanboys comments were what started the petty insults.

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Fanboy- One who follows a belief of the greatness of their affection, despite any proof against it.
This isn't always a bad thing, never said it was, hence it was never meant as an insult. The truth is that FF7 most likely does have the highest concentration of fanboys within the video game world, ones that follow their beliefs. This is all I stated.

As for the emo momma's boy comment, if the real Sephiroth is reading this and is insulted by that comment. PM me and I will personally apoligize.

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Originally Posted by Amaru

I never said someone recovered the Masamune. I said that Sephiroth recovered his own weapon. Sephiroth took control of Jenova's body to gain a physical form. Which part of this do you not quite understand?

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Well if Sephiroth needed a physical body to do all of these things, he would have obviously needed one to transport the Masamune. Yet, according to you at least, it was Sephiroth's will controlling Jenova, so that doesn't explain how the blade got there.

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Originally Posted by Amaru

Weapon attacked indescriminately. Look up the word in the dictionary. It didn't matter who or where it was attacking. The fact was, humanity itself was seen as a huge threat to the Planet. This isn't a theory here, it's stated explicitely within the game itself.

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If they're attacking everywhere indescriminately (adj. Not making or based on careful distinctions; unselective) what were they doing during the bulk of disk two, just sitting around? These things have to power to wipe out humanity in a matter of days and yet through the course of the game they get to three places? I'm fairly sure these things would be on instinct to get the job done quick to protect the planet.

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Originally Posted by Amaru

Sephiroth gaining control of Jenova is seen countless times within the game, not to mention, explained again and again in countless official places, that you keep ignoring by making up a really petty excuse by saying that they are pandering to the fans. Seriously, how petty can you get?

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Yes, business strategy is a really petty excuse :rolleyes2 . Look, whether you like to admit it or not, Square is just like any other company. And the fact of the matter is that if people don't like what is being sold then they won't buy it. As for Sephy controlling Jenova being seen many times in the game, there are just as many times that the opposite could be deduced.

Holy Bejebus, wow. Well, we all have different hobbies. :cat:

Anyway, now I'm sure that those Ultimania Guides would be a good idea to translate. :p At any rate...

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As for Sephy controlling Jenova being seen many times in the game, there are just as many times that the opposite could be deduced.

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This is true. This is also why arguing about it is a waste of time. But, to each our own. :cat:

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Originally Posted by Griff

As for the emo momma's boy comment, if the real Sephiroth is reading this and is insulted by that comment. PM me and I will personally apoligize.

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Sarcasm really isn't your forte.

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Originally Posted by Griff

Well if Sephiroth needed a physical body to do all of these things, he would have obviously needed one to transport the Masamune. Yet, according to you at least, it was Sephiroth's will controlling Jenova, so that doesn't explain how the blade got there.

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I can't believe that you are trying to argue such a trivial point, it really does amaze me and show me exactly where you stand on things.

It doesn't? What, do I need to draw a line from A to B for you? Do you even enjoy Final Fantasy games, because they surely do not do that for you. Let me explain this to you slowly. Sephiroth needed a physical body. With me so far? Sephiroth's will was sent out to Jenova's body, which was in stasis in Shinra HQ. Ok, stay with me here. He gained control of her, awakening her, and transfered her form into his own image. So he gained a physical body.

What part of this do you still not understand. He had a physical body. Weilding the masamune was not a problem.

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Originally Posted by Griff

Yes, business strategy is a really petty excuse :rolleyes2 . Look, whether you like to admit it or not, Square is just like any other company. And the fact of the matter is that if people don't like what is being sold then they won't buy it.

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Jesus, if you can't see how petty you sound, then God help us all. You're stating that all FFVII fans are wrong, have been wrong all these years, because they have been lied to about the truth, a truth - I might add - that you yourself think you are right in. Dude, look up the word petty. If at any point it was being used in it's correct form, it's here. :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Griff

As for Sephy controlling Jenova being seen many times in the game, there are just as many times that the opposite could be deduced.

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Except, what you keep ignoring, time and time again, is that the game never acknowledges Jenova as the main villain and the one that the group is fighting, and what you keep ignoring is the official stance on the subject. Did the last part of my post just fly right over your head? Not that I didn't expect you to try and ignore it, because it alone counters everything that you could possibly come up with - that's why you're trying to undermine it's officialness just to suit your own believes and need. Like I said, petty.

Keep ignoring the guide, keep ignoring official stances on the subject, keeping ignoring the majority of fans and ingame events - and just believe that you are right. Wow. It's funny that you mention fanboy at the beginning of your post, though the definition that you stated seems to fit you like a glove. Following your believes ... despite all the proof that goes against it...

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Originally Posted by Zeromus_X

Anyway, now I'm sure that those Ultimania Guides would be a good idea to translate.

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Is the last part of my post invisible? :p I posted the link to a translation of the Guide.

Oh crap, sorry. :D Thank you though, I've always wanted to see a translation...:cat:

Edit: Then...there really shouldn't be any argument, now. :cat: xD

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Originally Posted by Amaru

Excuse me? When did I hail the game as the best? When did I hail Sephiroth as the greatest villain of all time? When did I hail FFVII fans as the best group out there? The only insight into myself that you have here is me defending the game against people making up plot holes and denying the main villain.

Next time perhaps you should read posts properly before being so judgemental about people.

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Well, if you don't see VII as the best game out there, then why bother discussing this whole thing? Let people with different opinions say there stuff, if you disagree, say so, but then just leave it. It's not like he's going to change his mind, nor are you.

And about the Main Villain. Well, Sephiroth ACTS throughout the whole game. Yes, it's his desire to become a God and all the other psyco stuff. But it all fits kinda well in Jenova's plan. Jenova is behind teh scenes, just finishing what she started a long, long time ago.

And every game has plot holes. Well, almost everygame.

ANd now you are stating that I can't read. Hey, I read this whole threat full of good points to point out you are wrong. But you also have that one vission: "Sephiroth is the Main Villain! Nobody tyouches that idea!"
Perhaps he was. A main villain puppet.

EDIT:
Heck, Kuja is the main villain all the time in IX, yet you fight Necron as the Final Boss. ExDeath is teh villain all teh time in V, yet you fight the incarnation of the void, NeoExDeath, in the end. Jenova needn't be the Final Boss to be the Main Villain, at work behind the scenes.

What every one of you continues to do is ignore the Ulti-Guide. Go read it. Then keep telling me that 'it was all Jenovas plans'. This shouldn't even be up for debate. It's official. ;)

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Originally Posted by Amaru

Weilding the masamune was not a problem.

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Except of course for my main point, the blade had no way of getting to ShinRa HQ.

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Originally Posted by Amaru

What every one of you continues to do is ignore the Ulti-Guide. Go read it. Then keep telling me that 'it was all Jenovas plans'. This shouldn't even be up for debate. It's official. ;)

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Hmm... Against such an argument, I cannot win. I accept my defeat at your hands. :)

Guess Seph was controlling his momy after all...
Still, the true villain of VII was Meteor. :rolleyes2

Thank you, Elpizo. I'm glad that you took the time to look at the official guide. Though of course, some others have now turned this into a debate that such official sources can't be trusted. *Sigh*

Anyway, this is my final post in this thread. Everything that needs to be said, has been said, and more importantly, all the information to every question can be found in the guide itself. If anyone doesn't want to read or believe in it, then so be it, but it's all there. :)

Offical as in, Endorced by Square with permission... Not all the material in the thing came from the writers of the game.

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Originally Posted by Wuggly Blight

Offical as in, Endorced by Square with permission... Not all the material in the thing came from the writers of the game.

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exactly

l

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ay the game. Sephiroth barely, and I mean barely new Cloud. After wandering in the Lifestream and absorbing the knowledge and wisdom of the ancients, when he finally started projecting himself back out into the World once more, he didn't instantly recognise Cloud. It was Zack who he had the major fight with, Cloud just came up behind and stabbed him.

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You forget that Cloud ran up and Sephiroth turned, stabbed him and looked right into his face. At this point, Cloud gained a surge of adreniline and hurled him into the Reactor. Sephiroth was looking straight into the face of the man who had pretty much brought about his "death." You wouldn't remember that, yet he would remember everything else?

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The Jenova Reunion is an instinctive process. It's a natural instinct for all the cells to be reunited. All the people in black were heading towards Sephiroth, not Jenova herself, because he was in control.

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Maybe you could do as you say and "read the whole post?" The Reunion is an instinct, but Sephiroth has NO USE for it. He wants the Black Materia. He doesn't need the clones all flocking to him. He doesn't have to kill them all once they get there. The fact is, Sephiroth is the highest concentration of Jenova cells outside of Jenova herself. Also, her head is with him. So, going there was a process conceived by jenova as indicated by "Sephiroth" killing the clones.

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What? Sephiroth never revived the body of Jenova. That was her own doing. And that's exactly what he did. He manipulated Cloud into getting the Black Materia for him, and then to hand it over towards the end of the game, so I have no idea what you mean there.

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I am saying that Jenova awoke and took on the guise of Sephiroth on her own. It happened at the exact time Cloud was near her. Sephiroth doesn't manipulate Cloud. Jenova does because Jenova can. "Because...you are a puppet." Just like Sephiroth. Look "Sephiroth's" perplexity of Cloud's expression of emotion in City of the Ancients. He has his arms raised, grandiose-style and after hearing Cloud speak about how he feels, he looks down and shows suprised at this. Sephiroth KNOWS Cloud is not just a construction of Hojo's but Jenova does not.

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Jenova's plan was never to use the Lifestream and become a God. Never. Not once in the entire game is there a quote or instance to prove this. She just wanted to destroy the Planet and use it as a vessel to head to over far-off Planets and destroy them. This was why she summoned Meteor all those years before. Sephiroth used her original idea and expanded upon it. Knowing the Lifestream energy that would surface in such a catastrophic event, he could merge with it and become a God.

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...wrong and wrong.

A. Jenova didn't summon Meteor. She was the object that struck the Planet and left the wound.
B. I never said her plan was to become a god. Her plan is to destroy but she has adopted a Sephiroth persona, in accordance with her skill to replicate mind and body of another. If it is Sephiroth's mind she has constructed to fit her form, then his deluded thoughts would include becoming a god but this is not the actual Sephiroth, as already stated. It's a construct of Jenova's, a false persona of Sephiroth's.

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And you say that his Godhood wouldn't last long, but you are forgetting that aspects of the story (like Jenova and the Cetra) expand beyond the Planet. Sephiroth's Godhood could have seen him God of the universe. He didn't give a damn about that Planet and what happened to it.

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God of the universe, what? The Planet is the lifeblood he's sucking up to gain power. If the Planet is destroyed, the lifeblood goes bye-bye and so does his source of power. No godhood, only his demise.

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No one said that Sephiroth himself possessed mind-altering powers. He used [b]Jenova's influence[b], to use the cells within Cloud to manipulate him.

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Then again, why does he not know Cloud? Why does he simply call him a clone when the real Sephiroth knew Cloud was a real person all along? I'll tell you why. Sephiroth wasn't using the Jenova cells to control Cloud. JENOVA was using the Jenova cells to control Cloud. Amazing concept.

And there is hardly any mention of Sephiroth's will in Advent Children. It's Jenova's will as Kadaj and the rest REPEATEDLY say. It was all up to what Jenova chose. Sephiroth is at best a side-character

agrees entirely with the above. I think your calm, uninsulting, rational approach to the topic is much better than the tempered, insulting, flaming view other have expressed.

I agree strongly that AC shows that Jenova is still wielding her influence, as all the silver-hairs refer to her being the main factor. They even CRY for her! Why would Sephiroth cause them this?

Yet again, AC reinforces the whole Jenova Reunion thing, the theory put forward by Hojo and Gast that any separation of Jenova cells will eventually cause a reformation. This is still the theme of AC and of 7 in general, thus it is Jenova's influence that overrules the entire story. If Sephiroth overpowered Jenova, what further use would the reunion form? He would have no reason to continue it, unless he also wants to restore Jenova, thus making him slave to its influence yet again.

http://uk.faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html

There you go. Once more, the ultimate counter to all of your post. ;)

You do realize that the UOG was written and published before the release of Advent Children? Yeah, just a reather HUGE fact there.

Which has got to do what with your post, which is 95% focused on FFVII? :)

A lot...duh. Go back to page 1 and I believe my third post. You seemed to have missed 3/4 of it. I know it's not all my own work, but I've discussed it with the person thoroughly and it makes the most sense, our combined ideas.

You still don't understand do you? Why in the world should I, or anyone else for that matter, throw our own experiences of the game down the drain, ignore constant reinforcements and evidence of Sephiroth and his control over Jenova, ignore official guides which are published by Square and feature interviews with the team-members, a guide which you slander and call unofficial and unbelievable ... and listen to your unofficial theory? What in the world grants you the right to say that you are right, that 95% of every other FFVII fan and Square Enix themselves, are wrong?

Just answer me that why don't you?

No one is saying that at all, but you are blinded by some naive view that EVERYTHING you read in an article or on a webpage is the truth!

Published by Square? Maybe. WRITTEN by Square? Not necessarily.
Publish does not equal written by. (Example: Any book in a library)

Even if it was written by Square, written by a lead writer of FF7? Again, not necessarily true.

The only -ONLY- person who knows the truth is the ORIGINAL writer. So, please don't insult my intelligence again by linking AGAIN to a guide which provides no genuine authenticity as to who endorsed it.

Thank you.

You're quite right, I am insulting your intelligence, because yet again, the meaning of my post goes right over your head. What backing does anything that you or Forsaken have said, come from? Nothing even remotely official, that's for sure. ;)

CAN U NOT READ?!?!!?!?!?!?

I have said that already, I have said that our view has no backing from "official" sources! But you have not answered my question! How can u be so sure ur interviews are genuine?

To add to this, I notice that this guide is a translation by the writer himself. We have all seen how absurd some translation ends up (Zero Wing springs to mind) yet you claim that he is perfect in everything he says?

Further Edit Point: At the end of the guide, Kitase is interviewed involving links between 7 and 10 / 10-2. Now, how can you be sure he has not gone with the Dominant Sephiroth thing to leave open to him a later storyline involving a link between the two, which would surely rake in MILLIONS?

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Originally Posted by gyaku_zuki

CAN U NOT READ?!?!!?!?!?!?

I have said that already, I have said that our view has no backing from "official" sources! But you have not answered my question! How can u be so sure ur interviews are genuine?

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Hehe. That's because you never stated a question. ;) Now that you have, perhaps I can answer.

Listen. The guide, and all following guides that came after, are published by Square. The also contain interviews from the team members themselves. If that does not add authenticity or any sense of genuine status to these, I don't know what does.

It's funny. I don't see anyone attacking the authenticity of the FFVIII, IX, X, or the X-2 guides? But of course your attacking the FFVII one as it directly provides proof of events, and goes against everything that you guys have said...

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Why in the world should I, or anyone else for that matter, throw our own experiences of the game down the drain, ignore constant reinforcements and evidence of Sephiroth and his control over Jenova,

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Really? What constant reinforcement of Sephiroth controlling Jenova did you see in the game? Tell me, please.

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ignore official guides which are published by Square and feature interviews with the team-members

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Yeah, but again, not written by the team-members, nor said anywhere that it is endorsedy by them. SQUARE owns Final FantasY VII and anything to relate with it. Kitase does not and if Square says "you approve of this" you do. I respect Kitase immensely for what he created in FFVII, but I KNOW for a fact that the game is what he envisioned and created. The guide is just published by the company the man works for. In a sense, one is far more reliable than the other.

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What in the world grants you the right to say that you are right, that 95% of every other FFVII fan and Square Enix themselves, are wrong?

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You seem to think you are in the majority by a significant margin... I don't think so and I don't know if you can back up your claim. I won't dispute that a lot of people do think Sephiroth was in control, but how many of said people would be willing to paw through the game and write an entire essay on it? Do these fans even write or speak coherently and not use chatspeak? I wrote my idea and theory based on what I found in the game and LOGICAL REASONING. I don't think one can dispute logic.

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It's funny. I don't see anyone attacking the authenticity of the FFVIII, IX, X, or the X-2 guides? But of course your attacking the FFVII one as it directly provides proof of events, and goes against everything that you guys have said...

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I am not interested in FFIX or any of the others at the moment. Also, where is this "proof?" As far as I read, the UOG just SAYS Sephiroth was in control. No explanation.

Logic based on flawed interpretations of 'evidence' and events, is still flawed logic. :)

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

I am not interested in FFIX or any of the others at the moment. Also, where is this "proof?" As far as I read, the UOG just SAYS Sephiroth was in control. No explanation.

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The explanations are throughout the entire guide. You obviously didn't read it...

Okay, then. Point out how my logic and interpreations are flawed. If you can disprove my essay, I'll shut up and admit it's flawed logic. If not, I will keep advocating it.

I already did provide counters to your earlier posts, but you aren't going to admit anything, and I certaintly aren't taking what you're coming up with as gold over official sources and what I know.

So, like I said a while back, that will just have to be left at that. :)

Okay guys, let's not get personal here.

I'll admit I'm wrong when someone shows me I'm wrong by pointing out how my essay is completely invalid. Until then, I guess that is that.

Well.......one COULD make the argument that the writers never really had any intention of definately saying who controlled who. Because both sides have valid arguments, who's to say the writer's didn't provide specifics on either scenario to help encourage discussion on the game, much like they did with the tifa/aeris situation. The second lesson of business is Controvercy Creates Cash after all.

Yeah, except they did say who controlled who. In the guide. Which has been linked to like, three times. So there isn't an argument.

And even though Advent Children came out, they wouldn't change what was delibrately stated in an official guide.

And, it doesn't really matter.

Why has no one argued that the two were working in tandem?

edit: I dug around for some old (yet far more civil) discussion on the same topic. Here are some references listed below you may find interesting to peruse.

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=29965
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=43276
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=43531

As far as I can recall, most discussions seem to end up with Sephiroth being the ultimate mastermind, and I am inclined to agree. However, I don't recall there being such overwhelming support for either position. I haven't played in a while though, so I'll defer that to Big D or Kishi or MM1600 or Sigggad or Squall of SeeD, if they ever see this.

As far as logic goes, the only rampant abuse of logic so far has been over whether Square asserts Sephiroth is the final villain so they can appeal to Sephiroth fanboy gamers. There is simply no evidence to justify this claim.

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make the argument that the writers never really had any intention of definately saying who controlled who

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V

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Yeah, except they did say who controlled who. In the guide. Which has been linked to like, three times. So there isn't an argument.

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As already said, it was Square that published it, not the writers of the game. I don't know how many times people need to hear that. And that doesn't signify the end of an argument because if someone says something and doesn' give any support to what they say, it's not valid. I can't make a game and then tell everyone "the world you walked on was the moon" with no explanation of that fact. It just can't be and if anyone truly agrees with me despite heavy evidence contradicting this, then they are a dittohead.

And, Advent Children does heavily revolve around Jenova. And as it really goes hand-in-hand with the Jenova control theory of FFVII while the Sephiroth control is not seen at all in AC or the game, it really does lend more weight to a Jenova argument while simultaneously making what the guide says outdated.

So...a book made by Square doesn't support an argument, is that what you're saying? Fans can make theories all they want, but when the company that develops and publishes the game creates a book with information and evidence, you'd be hard pressed to ignore it. But, you can choose to do that if you want. You are doing a great job already. :) :cat:

You want to hear something never even stated in the UOG? The guide does not explain this at all. The last part of this latest bit of my essay, about Red XIII, is something the guide never elaborates on. However, my theory fully explains it with logical reason and proof from the game.


Now we get into the speculative bit of Jenova’s actions. Why did she take on Sephiroth’s appearance? People who promote the idea Sephiroth was controlling her will claim he was impressing his will onto her. No explanation or evidence stated in the game offers forth an idea that Sephiroth was capable, or willing, to do such an act. However, we do know Jenova has certain abilities and whether instinctual or sentient, can delve into the minds of others and use what she finds there for her own purposes. This would conceivably be accomplished to an even greater extent in those with her cells. Jenova’s intelligence is not really a question here. It can be instinct or cunning, but it is not at all hard to conclude that when Jenova awoke and reached out to Cloud, she found at the core of his psyche, imprinted forever in his mind was...Sephiroth. The same goes to all the clones. As survivors of the Nibelheim Incident, they would similarly have Sephiroth eternally etched onto their consciousness. Finding this common link in all the carriers of her components, she took on Sephiroth’s appearance because it was effective. Ifalna herself offers proof Jenova has such abilities (again, primal or intellectual is not involved in this section).

Ifalna: “That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."

It is Jenova and Jenova looked into their minds and found the same thing she found when she looked into the minds of Cloud and the others who survived Nibelheim and then became parts of Hojo’s Sephiroth clone project. It was Sephiroth and she knew that adopting his form would help guide the clones even more. It would not just have to be an instinctual control of her cells in their body, but a physical dominance over their mind by manipulating their still clear and vivid remembrance of Sephiroth.

This makes me theorize on an interesting idea. Red XIII is marked number 13 with the same tattoo Hojo put on every other incomplete Sephiroth clone. However, he never does exhibit any sign of odd behavior (like Cloud) or seem to be a quivering mass only seeking to follow (the rest of the clones). Following this idea, is it not too far-fetched to say he never did this because he, unlike the others, had no tie to Sephiroth? If Jenova morphed her form into Sephiroth to manifest a tangible control over the clones because of their shared feelings of Sephiroth, then it would have no visible effect on Red XIII because he was not at Nibelheim and barely knows of Sephiroth. I would go so far as to say the fact he did not become like the rest is somewhat conclusive proof that Jenova became Sephiroth for just the reason stated.

Red XIII is Hojo's 13th experiment, but it is not a Sephiroth Clone. Red was just Hojo's 13th experiment, and was marked as such. :cat:

Wrong. As I conclued, and even backed up by your lovely official guide, is Red XIII is just like the other 12 men. He is the thirteenth "clone." If that is the case, it is very reasonable to assume he had Jenova cells injected into him, just like alll the others. But, like I said, there is no explanation anywhere. Red XIII even expresses worries in Gold Saucer before you head off to Temple of the Ancients.

Red XIII: Cloud... I'm number 13. Am I going to go mad too?

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Originally Posted by Zeromus_X

So...a book made by Square doesn't support an argument, is that what you're saying? Fans can make theories all they want, but when the company that develops and publishes the game creates a book with information and evidence, you'd be hard pressed to ignore it. But, you can choose to do that if you want. You are doing a great job already. :) :cat:

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You wanna know something? I got sucked into this argument after making a neutral statement of "There are good points for each side" or something to that effect.
All I wanted to say originally was that for SOME points of the story it MAKES MORE SENSE that Jenova is in control. This has got so way out of control and personal that it just aggravates me to continue such a debate.

The further point I would like to make is to say that just because Square authorised / published an article / book on the story, this does not make it necessarily truth.

Put it this way. You want to write an autobiography. You record your significant life events, but find they are a little on the thin side. So, FOR THE PURPOSES OF SALES, you over-exaggerate or change some of it, because that's what you think the people will want to hear. OK then, so now we have a book, written by the "writer" of that life, so to speak, which has bent the truth to appease the public and make £$.

All I'm saying is that it is a possibility.
All of this entire topic is opinion. No one (myself included) has yet produced any facts at all, apart from a rough translation of a guide (Translated BY one of those FANS, by the way) on the net. Is the translation accurate? I don't know.

And you are right. It really doesn't matter at all. I've gone so way past caring after being insulted for trying to have a discussion.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Wrong. As I conclued, and even backed up by your lovely official guide, is Red XIII is just like the other 12 men. He is the thirteenth "clone." If that is the case, it is very reasonable to assume he had Jenova cells injected into him, just like alll the others.

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No offence, but do you even read the sources that you are even citing? The guide says nothing about Red XIII being like the other 12 men. He was giving a tattoo by Hojo because he was part of his experiments, but there is no evidence in the game whatsoever that he was ever injected with Jenova cells. This is backed up by the fact that Hojo knew what would happen to those clones, and that Red XIII was part of an entirely different experiment to preserve his species by mating with Aeris.

Once again, the guide says this, so I have no idea at all where you got the idea that the guide backs up what you are saying.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

But, like I said, there is no explanation anywhere. Red XIII even expresses worries in Gold Saucer before you head off to Temple of the Ancients.

Red XIII: Cloud... I'm number 13. Am I going to go mad too?

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Of course he expresses worries, the guy has human emotions after all. What that has to do with anything, I have no idea. He was concerned because everyone with tattoos went mad. Another point that seems to not have been mentioned is that he is also nothing like the other clones in another way - the fact that they were all human and he is not. Still, that doesn't stop anyone from worrying when you see the things going on around you.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

And, Advent Children does heavily revolve around Jenova. And as it really goes hand-in-hand with the Jenova control theory of FFVII while the Sephiroth control is not seen at all in AC or the game, it really does lend more weight to a Jenova argument while simultaneously making what the guide says outdated.

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Isn't Advent Children the ultimate in fan service? I suppose then this would further debunk your claim that Square claims Sephiroth was in charge for the purpose of pandering to Sephiroth fanboys if they created Advent Children to pander to fanboys and promote Jenova instead. :p

@Gyaku: I was talking to FL. :cat:

Aamaru, you are an absolute hypocrite. Don't make your gibberish about me not reading it when you yourself do not.

QUOTED FROM TEH GUIDE:

*The Sephiroth Clones that make appearances in various places*
The following are the Sephiroth Clones seen branded with numbers, [as well as]
one who was [once inaccurately] concluded to be like them.

1......The one with a tattoo seen in the palm of his hand. He went from North
Corel to the Gold Saucer.

2......The man being watched over in Sector 5 [of Midgar]; he was suffering
from the effects of mako poisoning.

4......One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.

5......One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.

9......Exited from the entrance of the Temple of the Ancients. [This Sephiroth
Clone's] tattoo was on their neck.

11.....One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.

12.....One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.

13.....(Red XIII)

-------------

And, I said he worries over it to give in-game solid evidence of my idea. Damn, Amaru, you really need to get your facts straight before you try and debunk someone.

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*The Sephiroth Clones that make appearances in various places*
The following are the Sephiroth Clones seen branded with numbers, [as well as] one who was [once inaccurately] concluded to be like them.

While Red XIII is on this list, his placement is implied to be only a result of him having a tattoo and of him having once believed that he might have been like the Sephiroth Clones, as he had no idea what Hojo had done to him. No one but Hojo and Sephiroth knew the true nature of the Sephiroth Clones at that time, so there was some uncertainty concerning whether or not Red XIII was supposed to be like them. Of course, it's later revealed that the Sephiroth Clones were all survivors from the Nibelheim incident of five years before, and in light of that, as well as the fact that Red XIII was apprehended by Shin-Ra less than two years earlier (as seen in Before Crisis:Final Fantasy VII) and the fact that Hojo wouldn't have wanted Red XIII to be killed -- made evident by the fact that he said he wanted to preserve his species back in the Shin-Ra headquarters -- it becomes apparent that Red XIII was not a Sephiroth Clone at all..

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That's the entire quote, not the one section that you handpicked to try and back what you said. And for someone who keeps crying about having proof and evidence, him worrying has nothing of that at all. There's no mention anywhere of him remotely having Jenova cells. All Red XIII knew was that he was branded, so he might go insane. Which he didn't by the way. Not to mention, he had no role whatsoever in the Jenova reunion or the impulse / pull to Jenova. :rolleyes2

Hypocrite? You're the biggest hypocrite here.

That's my entire point. The quote does not give any reason why Hojo gave him a number like the other clones. He did not brand any other experiment except the Sephiroth clones. My theory explains both why he has it and why he never shows any signs of being like the rest...that is, if you read it. Again, my theories go beyond what the guide says and actually offers a complete explanation of events whereas the guide seems to pick what it will explain and then not do it very well.I would like thoroughness and detail, not just a jumbled bunch of facts that really reveal absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

That's my entire point. The quote does not give any reason why Hojo gave him a number like the other clones. He did not brand any other experiment except the Sephiroth clones. My theory explains both why he has it and why he never shows any signs of being like the rest...that is, if you read it. Again, my theories go beyond what the guide says and actually offers a complete explanation of events whereas the guide seems to pick what it will explaina nd then not do it very well.

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Oh, so one minute you're using the guide to backup what you're saying, and when proven wrong, you're once again denouncing the guide. Jesus Christ man.

And let me prove you wrong yet again on something. Cloud was a Sephiroth experiment. A failed experiment. He was never branded with a tattoo. Oh wait, Zack was also involved in the Sephiroth experiment. He was never branded with a tattoo. And yet, we're supposed to believe, in your theory, that Red XIII simply having a tattoo makes him a Sephiroth clone and involved in the experiments? When Cloud and Zack didn't?

No, I do not discount the guide because it proves me wrong. I had the thought of Red XIII long before I knew of this guide.

And, stop with the pointless facts. They don't help you at all. Zack and Cloud received no numbers because they were thought of as failures. It has nothing to do with the current colection of people with the number tattoos.

And, if you and your guide are oh so clever and the word of the land, why does Red XIII have a tattoo if he's not a member of the Sephiroth clone project? Why does his tatoo bear the number thirteen? Why does this tattoo correlate with the project? I guess we'll have to go with the guide and what you say and accept it as just a COINCIDENCE and not give it any meaning or explanation.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

No, I do not discount the guide because it proves me wrong. I had the thought of Red XIII long before I knew of this guide.

And, stop with the pointless facts. They don't help you at all. Zack and Cloud received no numbers because they were thought of as failures. It has nothing to do with the current colection of people with the number tattoos.

And, if you and your guide are oh so clever and the world of the land, why does Red XIII have a tatoo if he's not a member of the Sephiroth clone project? Why does his tatoo bear the number thirteen? Why does this tatto correlate witht he project? I guess we'll have to go with the guide and what you say and accept it as just a COINCIDENCE and not give it any meaning or explanation.

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Pointless facts? Zack and Cloud, Sephiroth experiments, having no tattoos, is seen by you as a pointless fact. I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of your post with such a stupid statement like that...

You really are not helping your case. I asked you to explain why the guide and you think that Red XIII has a tattoo that relates with those involved in the clone project and not actually be part of it. You are just now grabbing onto a handy excuse not to reply to that. I stated Cloud and Zack had no numbers because in this subject, is does not matter. They were cast out of the project. We're discussing the people in it, with the tattoos and focussing on Red XIII. Cloud and Zack not having a number tatto is irrelevent.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

You really are not helping your case. I asked you to explain why the guide and you think that Red XIII has a tattoo that relates with those involved in the clone project and not actually be part of it. You are just now grabbing onto a handy excuse not to reply to that. I stated Cloud and Zack had no numbers because in this subject, is does not matter. They were cast out of the project. We're discussing the people in it, with the tattoos and focussing on Red XIII. Cloud and Zack not having a number tatto is irrelevent.

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Handy excuse? When you call solid, in-game fact as 'pointless', it just shows even more how wrong you are. Cloud and Zack were not cast out of the project, they escaped. There was no reason not to brand them during the initial stages of the experiments, unless branding alone simply doesn't mean that you were part of the Sephiroth Clone experiment.

And here's some more in-game fact that you continued to ignore from before. Red XIII's fate was never in the experiment. He was involved in another experiment to preserve and procreate so as to expand his and Aeris' 'species'. Once again, there is no evidence in the game that Red XIII had Jenova cells, that he was part of that experiment, and that he was ever influenced or could be influenced. You have 0 evidence to support anything that you've said.

So what's the reason for the numbers? Hojo probably started numbering his experiments so that he could start keeping better track of them. Again, not that they were all part of the same experiment.

Again, wrong. You like bold, so you have 0 evidence Hojo started just randomly numbering all his experiments. You have 0 evidence Red XIII was involved in nothing but Hojo's project to preserve endangered species. He had just started that project when we got there and we have no idea how long Red XIII was held by Hojo. You are pulling more stuff out of nothing. You are saying he JUST has a number for...no reason? W KNOW for a fact that the people involved in the experiment had a number. RED XIII has a number. Both facts. You can't dispute that. Why does he have one? Why are we not told anything else about other experiments having numbers? We are presented with two very clear facts. What you are saying is in fact conjecture, not fact at all. Pardon me for trying to stay in the realms of evidence and not straying off to my own ideas here. He has a number. They have a number. 1+1=2.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

You have 0 evidence Red XIII was involved in nothing but Hojo's project to preserve endangered species.

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The game never once says he was involved in any other experiment, and we never witness Jenova or Sephiroth having any influence in him, or that he ever possesses Jenova cells. There's my evidence. That tattoo alone proves nothing to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

He had just started that project when we got there and we have no idea how long Red XIII was held by Hojo. You are pulling more stuff out of nothing. You are saying he JUST has a number for...no reason? W KNOW for a fact that the people involved in the experiment had a number.

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Once again, Cloud and Zack were involved in the experiment and they didn't have a number. Stop ignoring them.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Pardon me for trying to stay in the realms of evidence and not straying off to my own ideas here.

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And there you have it. No matter what is said, and what evidence is brought against you, that's what it all comes down to. So why are you even asking for a debate and counter to what you are stating? ;)

These aren't my own ideas. These are facts from the game, as stated. He has a tattoo and so do all the others. You know that. You can't say it's absolutely nothing and not elaborate on that. I say it does mean something, that it wasn't just there for the hell of it. I give an explanation of why. Does the guide? Do you? I don't believe so.

And, I'm not ignoring the fact Zack and Cloud didn't have them. This has to do with people WHO DO HAVE THEM. That's the clones and Red XIII. Cloud and Zack are not important as of this discussion.

Forgive me, but I just can't swallow the notion Red has a tat and the clones have a tat and it's brought up and it's neve rsaid why..... I guess the creators just thought it be fun to give him one.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

These aren't my own ideas. These are facts from the game, as stated.

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Where in the game is it stated that Red XIII was part of the Sephiroth clone experiment?
Where in the game is it stated that Red XIII has Jenova cells?
Where in the game is it stated that Red XIII felt the pull of Jenova?
Where in the game is it stated that Red XIII went mad like the other clones?
Where in the game is it stated that Red XIII followed the other clones so as to unite with the others with Jenova cells?

That's right, nowhere. But what is explicitely stated in the game, is that Hojo wanted him alive to expand his and Aeris' species. Being part of the Sephiroth clone experiment wouldn't achieve that.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

And, I'm not ignoring the fact Zack and Cloud didn't have them. This has to do with people WHO DO HAVE THEM. That's the clones and Red XIII. Cloud and Zack are not important as of this discussion.

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How in the world are they not relevant to this discussion? I'm sorry, but I'm struggling, I really am, to see how you can discount them. This is to do with you saying that Red XIII has Jenova Cells, your only reason for this, since there is no other evidence in the game, because he has a tattoo. Guess what - Cloud and Zack don't.

No matter how many times you try and dismiss them, they instantly crumble your weak argument.

When in the game is it stated Red XIII is not part of the Sephiroth clone project?
When in the game is it said he doesn't have Jenova Cells?

The fact is, you are discounting the single fact. FACT. He has a tatoo. FACT. The other clones have tattoos. So, you can't accept that? You refuse to see any connection? You can't and apparently will not explain why he has it and we are presented with the fact all the clones have it. Yes, all the clones do have it because they wer epart of the experiment. They were kept in the experiment. Cloud and Zack were not because a) they were failures and b) they escaped. Red XIII has a tattoo of a number, just like all the other "successful" clones. That is fact and fact can not be twisted. You seemingly can not accept the fact he has it and that obviously means something. It's not jus THERE.

As to him not showing signs of Jenova's influence, you seem to not even be capable of accepting another's viewpoint because I've already told you where I said it and yet you keep asking this over and over again. Maybe you just really can't understand something that goes against what you say and provides a logical conclusion to the facts stated in the game. I'm sorry that you have this handicap. Go back and read what I said on this matter and tell me why it doesn't make sense in the least.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

When in the game is it stated Red XIII is not part of the Sephiroth clone project?
When in the game is it said he doesn't have Jenova Cells?

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So we're now in the realm of loose fantasy, where if something is not said in the game, we can make up our own rules for them to be true? Fine then. Cloud was born a woman. It wasn't said in the game that he was, but we can make our own minds up. :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

The fact is, you are discounting the single fact. FACT. He has a tatoo. FACT. The other clones have tattoos. So, you can't accept that? You refuse to see any connection?

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Fact - Red XIII has a tattoo
Fact - The clones have a tattoo
Fact - Cloud and Zack don't have a tattoo
Fact - Red XIII never expresses, and we never see, any states, or experiences of the Jenova / Sephiroth cell connection
Fact - He was meant to live
Fact - He was meant to breed
Fact - He was meant to start a new species with Aeris

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

You can't and apparently will not explain why he has it and we are presented with the fact all the clones have it. Yes, all the clones do have it because they wer epart of the experiment. They were kept in the experiment. Cloud and Zack were not because a) they were failures and b) they escaped.

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They could have been branded before they escaped, they weren't. There's that paragraph down the drain...

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Red XIII has a tattoo of a number, just like all the other "successful" clones.

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Wheres one shred of evidence that Red XIII was a successful clone. That's right, none!

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

As to him not showing signs of Jenova's influence, you seem to not even be capable of accepting another's viewpoint because I've already told you where I said it and yet you keep asking this over and over again.

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Saying that he's frightened of going mad like the other tattooed experiments, means nothing and is not exclusive proof that he has Jenova cells. You keep crying for solid proof, yet provide none.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Maybe you just really can't understand something that goes against what you say and provides a logical conclusion to the facts stated in the game. I'm sorry that you have this handicap.

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Let's quote your last post shall we?

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Pardon me for trying to stay in the realms of evidence and not straying off to my own ideas here.

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Yeah, who has the handicap here? ;)

Im not sure where some of these theories are coming from. Not much evidence really. (I dont count the guide as evidence as the guides are famous for being full of crap. There not written by Square, merely approved to be published since Square owns the Final Fantasy name. thats why its offical. anyway)

Fact - He was meant to live - Never stated
Fact - He was meant to breed - Never stated
Fact - He was meant to start a new species with Aeris - Never stated. It was stated once they MAY need to breed "the specimen" to continue research, that was IT. Adding a the word fact doesn't make it one.

Its a damn game, calm down.

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Originally Posted by Hojo

Lending a helping hand to an endangered species… Both of them are on the brink of extinction… If I don't help, all these animals will disappear.

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That's only one partial quote from the scene that I've managed to dig out from my computer. Hojo was preparing to stop the extinction of the two species by making them breed. If you don't know facts about the game, don't interject into things.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

“OMG! But Seph is so much cooler111!!!” is not a reasonable counter for you Sephiroth fanboy blockheads.

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What's wrong with liking sephiroth or FF7 - calm down man.

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Originally Posted by Amaru

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hojo

Lending a helping hand to an endangered species… Both of them are on the brink of extinction… If I don't help, all these animals will disappear.

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That's only one partial quote from the scene that I've managed to dig out from my computer. Hojo was preparing to stop the extinction of the two species by making them breed. If you don't know facts about the game, don't interject into things.

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Your not serious.... really? you DIDNT get from that line? Hojo was NOT going to get Aeris and Red XIII to mate! Even a two year old KNOWS that. Im still amazed you even got that theory at all.

Edit: when he says help, I dont think it means helping BOTH. Like, feeding Aeris to the Red, battle of the strongest. Injecting cells, or something. I doubt Red and Aeris can even mate at all.

I agree... mostly. As much as I can- I haven't actually got the whole, or even ver much, of the plot yet.
It's defintely Jenova thta's using Sephiroth, but I don't get how she is him. How she's taking his form. I though it was just that she was manipulating him (in all those ways you said).
Looking at AC, she's just manipulating Kadaj. He hasn't been completely taken over by him, because he keeps going on about being a 'remnance', a 'puppet'. He's actually hurt that he's not that important to her. She hasn't just taken on his from... or whatever.
I couldn't even see that with Sephiroth, but maybe. I supposed it was because he was mentally very unstable, and she was freakishly good at manipulating him.

They're trying to please her, amybe. At least Kadaj was. I suppose it was different with Sephiroth, but not so different.

Hojo refers to the Ancients and Red XIII's races as 'species'. He says that they are both extinct. You don't protect the survival of an extinct species by letting one kill the other. As has already been mentioned, Hojo knew that he couldn't complete his research on Aeris in his lifetime. He needed another generation. By experimenting with Aeris mating with Red XIII, he could preserve both species and allow someone else to carry on his (or really Gast's) legacy.

Anyway, I am going to take my own advice that I should have done earlier, and leave this thread. I don't want to get banned, and if I stay here, that's what's going to happen. Everyone's had their say, insults have been slung on both sides, and no one's going to shift their believes on anything, evidence or not. So that's that. No hard feelings Forsaken. It wasn't you personally I was attacking, it's your ideas and the reasons behind them.

Okay here's what i don't get... and i haven't played this game since i was 10 so don't laugh you bastards. So the whole time that you come in contact with Sephiroth throughout the game he is just a spectre or a projection of what Sephiroth was like? I know his body resided in the Northern Crater the whole time. I have never really thought about it til now and now i don't know what the hell is going on...see what happens because you think to much.

Leucant and RP, I'll answer your ideas. Yes, it was Jenova you saw all the time through the game. Not once passed the Nibelheim memories and the time in Northern Crater is the person you talk toa nd interact with Sephiroth. You see, Jenova can shapeshift or quite simply, alter her body. Ifalan refers to her as a "he" in her accounts of when Jenova first appeared yet she is very feminine in the game. She can look like whatever she wants. But that's the thing. It's not merely physical. It is mental as well. She can read the minds of another and construct a false body and mind, completing a total, but false, double. It still operates on Jenova's mind and all, but the mind and body she formed is in a sense, "in contro." However, whatever decisions this false mind makes is in accordance with whatever the true mind of Jenova wants. Simply, it's its own personality, but it is below that of Jenova's.

My thesis on the other page explains all of this. You don't have to read the whole thing. It's explained early on.

And Amaru, I apologize as well. I get a bit caught up sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Zeromus_X

@Gyaku: I was talking to FL. :cat:

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Don't worry, although I quoted you, I merely used your post to give meaning to my own post, I know what you said was not directed at me.

I think its time this thread was laid to rest. It's impossible to reach a definitive conclusion at the present time and with the present information.

Maybe when Crisis Core is out this can be resolved one way or another?

PS: Apologies to anyone I insulted during this thread.

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Originally Posted by Griff

Well.......one COULD make the argument that the writers never really had any intention of definately saying who controlled who. Because both sides have valid arguments, who's to say the writer's didn't provide specifics on either scenario to help encourage discussion on the game, much like they did with the tifa/aeris situation. The second lesson of business is Controvercy Creates Cash after all.

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After reading every post after this, it just seems like an even better possibility than when I first posted it.

Yeah, that usually happens in threads like these. :p This thread needs to die, though.

You'll see what I mean shortly.

Wow, my avatars are synchronized. This is a further rejection of the argument that Rinoa = Ultimecia. By the principles of the Time Compression, disjunct events only can occur with a phase delay. This can be proven with simple Fourier analysis of control systems. Unless of course the system just passes a signal, but it is clear Time Compression is a little more complex than a simple signal buffer.

Even badass rebels like you don't get to triple post I'm afraid - Psychotic Hates Brigade's Guts.

I think that only Squall of Seed knows the answers to these worldly crisis.

A few years ago, I might have bothered to read this thread. But now I don't care nearly enough.

I think Jenova really did set things in motion. I don't think she used mind control on Sephiroth - I think she merely manipulated him to doing her bidding. This helps explains things that Sephiroth said: he went from misinterpreting Hojo's notes so he thought he was simply created from Jenova cells to calling Jenova "mother" and believing she was a true Cetra that all the betrayers were working to destroy. Jenova has a history of being manipulative to get her way, such as with the original story of her killing off most of the Cetra. Otherwise, how Sephiroth came to this conclusion can only be explained by "eh, he made it all up himself." I think it's probably reasonable that Jenova worked to help Sephiroth go insane, but of course I don't know for sure. What I do strongly believe is that Jenova told Sephiroth lies and nudged him along. I don't think Sephiroth was being directly controlled - I think he acted on his own at times - but I do believe that he was following Jenova's orders in the grand scheme of things.

An argument I used to hear a lot is "well, if Jenova was in control, why did Sephiroth still fight you after Jenova was killed?" Because Sephiroth was insane and Jenova wasn't controlling him in such a strict sense but was simply manipulating him, possibly influencing him a bit with more direct control, but it's impossible to know exactly how much.

Without Future Esthar's input here, I feel as if any theory drawn up and reasoned out is severely hampered without his mental energies and that we'd miss out on the truth in our sifting through the myriad of possibilites of Sephiroth's true motivation. It truly be because Jenova drove him over the edge, making him snap and become a fixated lunatic. It could be because Jenova actually attached a brainsucker (a sucker that sucks brains) to his head and not only removed his brain (brainsuckers eat brains and pass on the nutrients to its host (in this case being Jenova)), but also replaced it with what may be called a Jenova-chip implant, which actually caused Sephiroth to become nothing more than a puppet of Jenova. Or it could be because Sephiroth was just plain wrong in his own conclusions and screwed everything up on an, "Oops, my bad."

Good idea. I'll PM Future Esthar about this.

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Originally Posted by Neel Hates Clout's Guts

Yeah, that usually happens in threads like these. :p I'm calling in the brigade now.

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Does this mean I am part of the 'brigade'?

Oh yeah, wtf you jackass? :mad2:

Where'd you get that quote from? You're no better than Crash, changing around my words and all! *low blow... bam*

wtf? you backstabbing jackass!

Replace this text with that image of the ugly chin person and that is my response.

Why did this thread degenerate even more now you guys showed up :greenie: :rolleyes2

:trout:

Because a long time ago, a guy named Squall of SeeD already had this all figured out and proved, without a shadow of a doubt, that his theories were correct and no one is able to refute him besies Jesus, the man who died for everyone else except Neel, because he's brown.

Oh would you look at that, all the COOL GUYS who never post in the FF forums have shown up. I'm so upset you didn't invite me that I'm closing the thread.

Good spam guys. I give you a C-.

PS: You owe me now.