Did Anybody Else...Feel Bad for Orga XIII

I mean, if I was a Nobody I'd be pretty pissed off and trying to get a heart too. To remember what it's like to be a normal person but not really be able to feel, it would be pretty frickin sucky.

They go about it the wrong way...disrupting worlds and tricking Sora, and basically trying to claim Kingdom Hearts for themselves, so their methods were bad, but I still think their goal wasn't a bad thing at all.

I was kind of suprised Sora was totally unempathetic towards them all. He just doesn't really care and is out to destroy them >.>; The only one he showed any sort of understanding towards was Axel, and that was pretty much it.

Am I weird for often feeling like the villains were justified in their actions. I must be evil *cue cackling*

I feel bad for them, terribly. I mean, was it really so bad to want a heart? Some deserved what they got though. T_T

I felt bad for Axel BEFORE he blew himself up.

...........its a game

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Originally Posted by Tifa's Real Lover(really

...........its a game

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Yes, quite, it is, but just like when a movie's plot is processed and conversed about, a game can have the same approach and inspire a variety of feelings over the situation. I fully understand Organization XIII isn't real, but that doesn't mean I didn't form an opinion about them after spending 40 hours facing off against the bunch.

Forums like these wouldn't really exist if the answer to everything was "It's a game" and some etc. dots.

Why am I going through the flame/counter-flame paces... ugh -_-

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Originally Posted by LunarWeaver

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Originally Posted by Tifa's Real Lover(really

...........its a game

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Yes, quite, it is, but just like when a movie's plot is processed and conversed about, a game can have the same approach and inspire a variety of feelings over the situation.

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i agree with tht so far

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Originally Posted by LunarWeaver

I was kind of suprised Sora was totally unempathetic towards them all. He just doesn't really care and is out to destroy them >.>; The only one he showed any sort of understanding towards was Axel, and that was pretty much it.

Am I weird for often feeling like the villains were justified in their actions. I must be evil *cue cackling*

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Well, remember that the organization kidnapped Kairi, and until the very end he thought they had something with Riku. Also, throughout this game they are continually going around, trying to turn strong willed being into heartless so that they can get more strong nobodies. Plus, they keep calling him Roxas. So by the end of the game I don't think Sora really cared what they were going through, it's what they had done that was more on Sora's mind. Also, they were trying to get to Kingdom Hearts, just like Xehanort was trying to do. Although they were going about it differently, they were trying to return hearts to darkness, who knows how many it would have taken for the nobodies to get hearts. They had to be stopped.

I did feel a little bad for organization, but I also think they knew what they were doing was devious and wrong. So I only feel so bad. Surprisingly, I felt the worst for Xemnas, he seemed to be the most compassionate about the whole ordeal. I felt bad for Axel, but he didn't really seem to mind being a nobody, at least that's what I got from him.

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Originally Posted by Tifa's Real Lover(really

...........its a game

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The game is suppose to trigger your emotions, same with movies, if they didnt then you wouldnt watch. duh.

I did feel bad for orga XIII. I mean all they wanted is to be like everyone else. I was surprised Sora was so heartless towards them. Its like the videogame version of rascism

I should also point out that Sora isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, if you get my drift. It takes him awhile to fully comprehend what is going on with the Nobodies and be able to feel compassion for them. But he does, eventually. Just not the ones actively opposing him.

I wouldn't have felt anything for them myself. Sure their actions were somewhat justified but really the only one who seemed to have any remorse for what they did was Axel.

No, I don't feel sorry for them. Should I? You said that Sora has no empathy towards them. This is true, but it is impossible to be emphatic towards them, for they had no emotions (with the exception of Roxas, Axel, and Namine, who I will discuss later). Empathy is feeling the emotions and pain of others. The Nobodies had no emotions: They admitted as such. They pretended to have them, certainly, but they did not actually have the feeling, and when they quit the act, they turned out to be self-centered, cold-hearted b@$+@rds. They care for nothing except their own goals, and they are willing to kill and hurt as many people as they have to in order to complete those goals. That sort of attitude does not even inspire pity in me. They were a plague on the worlds, and they were wiped out, as they should have been.

In regards to their original selves, it's more difficult to say. Ansem's apprentices chose to become a Heartless, so I don't much give a damn about them. If it wasn't as nice as they thought it would be, tough. You still have to accept the consequences, and no matter what you've been through, it doesn't give you an excuse to do what they did when they became the Organization. As for the others, if they were made Heartless against their will, then yes, I feel sorry for them. But not for their Nobodies.

Of course, this raises a question: Many beings are made into Heartless forcibly, either through the procedures talked about in the Ansem's Reports or through the actions of those who are already Heartless. Since Nobodies supposedly retain the memories of their original selves, though none of the emotion, why would those who were turned into Nobodies as a result of the Organization's actions ally themselves with the Organization? Perhaps because, no matter how they got to their current situation, they felt that the Organization held the greatest opportunity of returning them to normal, and, without emotion, they would feel no malice towards those responsible for their condition. But then, if returning to true existance was their goal, why would they be so willing to serve as cannon fodder for the Organization? It may be that only those who retain human form retain their memories, which would account for it (assuming that they all became Heartless of their own free will), and those Nobodies grouped together to form the Organization. The Secret Ansem's Report didn't make any distinction between the human-form nobodies and the Dusks and such, but Ansem likely wasn't able to check to see if there were any, since he was acting covertly.

Um, sorry to get off topic there...

Anyway, as for Axel, Namine, and Roxas. Namine and Roxas are two anomalies, discussed fairly in-depth in the Secret Ansem's Reports, so I don't really feel the need to discuss them. Besides, they got a happy ending. Axel is another matter. He apparently started like the others, but he changed. He acquired emotions, true emotions, somehow. The other members of the Organization faked them, and when it came down to it, they would abandon the emotions when they no longer served their cause. Demyx is a prime example of this. He acted like a bumbling, frightened fool, but after Sora, Donald, and Goofy refused to fall for his act, his mood reverted to a very serious attitude, as he delivers his final line of non-battle dialogue: "Silence, traitor". Really not in characer for him, which isn't surprising, since that "character" was an act. But Axel didn't follow that pattern. When it came down to it, he was willing to sacrifice himself to save someone else, which is something that no other member of the Organization (save Roxas) would even consider. So, he gained emotions, and with emotions, it is possible to feel sorry for him.

So, I feel sorry for Axel, and at various points I had felt sorry for Namine and Roxas. But not the others. I have no more empathy for them than I do for a virus or bacteria: Maybe they can't help what they do, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to do my best to get rid of them or that I'm going to feel sorry for them when they die.

Xaldin was a hypocrite. He wanted to become whole, yet, toying around with Beast's mind and telling him that Belle would ''never love a beast like you'' and so on just proved he wanted more than to become ''whole''.

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I should also point out that Sora isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, if you get my drift

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Ahahah ^_^ Poor guy just doesn't go to school, he's uneducated.

But anyway...The very fact they had no emotions is what made me feel for them in the first place. They remember what it is like, they yearn to feel again, but they can't. That's like someone who is born blind, yet remembers another life where they could see. Remembers it so well they pretend they can see because of their denial, even when it's obvious they can't.. I mean, I would feel bad for that person.

If Roxas hadn't betrayed them, Roxas could have destroyed all the heartless and saved them a lot of trouble. Sora wouldn't cooperate with them on his own, so they had to manipulate him and put him through what he's put through, and put the worlds and his friends in danger to force him to recreate Kingdom Hearts.

And since Axel showed the Nobodies CAN have redeeming qualities, all I wanted was some sort of line from Sora asking if they could just talk things out, figure things out, not just "You're just pretending, so die."

Also, Riku says there is nothing wrong with the dark, only what's lurking inside. And throughout both games it is said that you need both dark and light... So just as Sora is fighting for the light, Xemnas is fighting for the dark, but one isn't necessarily evil. Xemnas would view Sora as being evil, trying to keep him away from his heart.

With that said, as I said before, I think their ultimate goal is justified, and their desperation to be human again makes me feel sorry for them. But their methods are not justified, and the way they try and achieve their hearts is simply all kinds of ebilness. Plus Xemnas went off the deep end and had more ambitions then just being human, which is just entering crazy zone. But as for the others, I do feel sorry for them, even the ones that chose to become a heartless...because the nobodies didn't ask for the originals to be heartless, they didn't ask to be made a nobody.

So it's not like I'm saying what they did was right...But for such a supposedly nice guy, Sora came off sort of mean to me I guess. But I'm just...strange sometimes X_x.

Besides, I'd join Organization XIII just for their snazzy outfits.

I'd have to say I feel sorry for Org. XIII, but not for Xehanort. Most of the members of the Organization, if you remember from Chain of Memories, were test subjects from the whole Heartless experiment, so I do feel bad for them. They didn't exactly plan on being a Nobody, it just kinda happened.

Xehanort however, seemed only interested in unlocking the darkness and hatred of the heart so he could use it for power. Not once did he actually show sympathy for tricking Sora or any of the bad things he did, and he even stated that he was eternal at one point (which was a tad too pompous for my taste). So no, I don't feel sorry for him.

Axel...I felt really bad for him. He didn't want to do any of that, and even tried to stop it, so he gets total props for that. The rest of em...well, they get sympathy, but I still had no problem destroying them ^^'

- DP

I'd be happy if somebody pointed out Xaldin's hypocrisy towards Beast or somebody show a wee bit of sympathy towards Saix...

I felt bad for most of them a few desrved what they got.
Xehanort, Saix, Xaldin.

Did I pity them? Yes...they just wanted to become whole again. I can't begrudge them that. BUT! Their methods in achieving this were reprehensible. So I'm kinda 50-50 on this one.

Not really. I was too concentrated on how awesome they were to feel sorry for them, though alot of them weren't the nicest people in the world...

Yeah, Sora and Riku were really dickish to them. :cat:

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Originally Posted by LunarWeaver

But anyway...The very fact they had no emotions is what made me feel for them in the first place. They remember what it is like, they yearn to feel again, but they can't. That's like someone who is born blind, yet remembers another life where they could see. Remembers it so well they pretend they can see because of their denial, even when it's obvious they can't.. I mean, I would feel bad for that person.
And since Axel showed the Nobodies CAN have redeeming qualities, all I wanted was some sort of line from Sora asking if they could just talk things out, figure things out, not just "You're just pretending, so die."

Also, Riku says there is nothing wrong with the dark, only what's lurking inside. And throughout both games it is said that you need both dark and light... So just as Sora is fighting for the light, Xemnas is fighting for the dark, but one isn't necessarily evil. Xemnas would view Sora as being evil, trying to keep him away from his heart.

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I agree. Personally, I think Saix was one of those who just wanted to return to normal.

As for Axel, I felt his pain in the cutscene where he died... But for the others, (say, Xigbar, Xaldin, Luxord) I'd have to say that they got what they deserved.

I once read somewhere that evil isn't necessarily a word used to describe a bad person, because the person may really be good at heart, but just fighting on the side viewed as the "bad" side. Like Maleficent, as she proved in the end (I think.). There are, of course exceptions to the rule, like, well, Xemnas!

Although Xemnas might be explained as wanting Xenahort's memory back.... you be the judge.

Axel I felt bad for, and after I killed Demyx I was like "aw."

Same goes for Larxene and Xigbar (just cuz i like them).

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Originally Posted by one winged shinigami

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Originally Posted by LunarWeaver

But anyway...The very fact they had no emotions is what made me feel for them in the first place. They remember what it is like, they yearn to feel again, but they can't. That's like someone who is born blind, yet remembers another life where they could see. Remembers it so well they pretend they can see because of their denial, even when it's obvious they can't.. I mean, I would feel bad for that person.
And since Axel showed the Nobodies CAN have redeeming qualities, all I wanted was some sort of line from Sora asking if they could just talk things out, figure things out, not just "You're just pretending, so die."

Also, Riku says there is nothing wrong with the dark, only what's lurking inside. And throughout both games it is said that you need both dark and light... So just as Sora is fighting for the light, Xemnas is fighting for the dark, but one isn't necessarily evil. Xemnas would view Sora as being evil, trying to keep him away from his heart.

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I agree. Personally, I think Saix was one of those who just wanted to return to normal.

As for Axel, I felt his pain in the cutscene where he died... But for the others, (say, Xigbar, Xaldin, Luxord) I'd have to say that they got what they deserved.

I once read somewhere that evil isn't necessarily a word used to describe a bad person, because the person may really be good at heart, but just fighting on the side viewed as the "bad" side. Like Maleficent, as she proved in the end (I think.). There are, of course exceptions to the rule, like, well, Xemnas!

Although Xemnas might be explained as wanting Xenahort's memory back.... you be the judge.

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They have no emotions because they gave up their humanity willing and turned to darkness. This is at least true of Ansem's apprentices, and I explained why it was likely true of the other leaders of the Organization. I don't really feel sorry for them just because they made a decision which had some really bad consequences. The decision was their choice. We know that at least Ansem's apprentices were morally deficient even before they lost their emotions, as evidenced by their experiments, so it's not as though they were the nicest people in the world even before they became Heartless.

Anyway, if I think about it more, I find that I pity them in the same way I pity a rabid dog: I feel sorry for them, but I won't hesitate if I got the chance to get rid of them, because their actions have shown that they won't hesitate to harm others.

In regards to your statement on "evil" being the word to describe them, I have to say I disagree. They are not "good at heart". Someone who is good at heart cares for more than just themselves. Many dictators originally held the honest belief that they knew how to run things better for everyone. The Organization did not even reach that point. Ok, the apprentices may have originally thought their research would benefit everyone, but their Nobodies (save Axel) never thought about anyone except themselves, and they were willing to hurt anyone in order to complete their goals. That is evil, not misguided good.

Xemnas is far worse than the other members of the Organization, as can only be expected, given what we know about him...

I was very sad when Axel died

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

They have no emotions because they gave up their humanity willing and turned to darkness.

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Not true. They have no emtions because they, as Nobodies, lack a heart. Besides, not all the Nobodies in the organization necessarily gave their humanity willingly to turn to darkness. Sora certainly didn't intend to turn to darkness when he freed Kairi's heart and created Roxas, did he?

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The decision was their choice. We know that at least Ansem's apprentices were morally deficient even before they lost their emotions, as evidenced by their experiments, so it's not as though they were the nicest people in the world even before they became Heartless.

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Again, I'm going to have to point out that we only know that five of the organization members seperated their bodies and hearts on purpose and we know how Roxas was created. We don't know how the other seven became nobodies. They could have been nice people. Roxas was a bit of a jerk before his memory was wiped, and he came from Sora who was a genuinely nice guy. For all we know, the person who Saïx came from could have been the kindest person you'd ever meet.

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Ok, the apprentices may have originally thought their research would benefit everyone, but their Nobodies (save Axel) never thought about anyone except themselves, and they were willing to hurt anyone in order to complete their goals.

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Of course Axel isn't included. He wasn't one of the five apprentices.

The two Organization members I feel sorry for are Saïx and Axel. They were the only members who expressed the desire to have a heart for the sake of having a heart. Everyone else either didn't say a whole lot about it, or they were like Xemnas who only wanted the power of a heart. Actually, most of them seemed to be having a heck of a good time being Nobodies.

i felt real bad(poor poor axel)

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

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Originally Posted by Skyblade

They have no emotions because they gave up their humanity willing and turned to darkness.

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Not true. They have no emtions because they, as Nobodies, lack a heart. Besides, not all the Nobodies in the organization necessarily gave their humanity willingly to turn to darkness. Sora certainly didn't intend to turn to darkness when he freed Kairi's heart and created Roxas, did he?

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They have no emotions because they are Nobodies, and Nobodies have no hearts. But they are Nobodies because they gave up their humanity willing and turned to darkness. Thus, they have no emotions because they gave up their humanity and surrendered their hearts to the darkness. Their lack of emotion is a direct result of the choice they made.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

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The decision was their choice. We know that at least Ansem's apprentices were morally deficient even before they lost their emotions, as evidenced by their experiments, so it's not as though they were the nicest people in the world even before they became Heartless.

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Again, I'm going to have to point out that we only know that five of the organization members seperated their bodies and hearts on purpose and we know how Roxas was created. We don't know how the other seven became nobodies. They could have been nice people. Roxas was a bit of a jerk before his memory was wiped, and he came from Sora who was a genuinely nice guy. For all we know, the person who Saïx came from could have been the kindest person you'd ever meet.

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And I explained in my first post in this thread why I believe that the other members of the Organization became Heartless (and therefore created Nobodies) of their own free will.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

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Ok, the apprentices may have originally thought their research would benefit everyone, but their Nobodies (save Axel) never thought about anyone except themselves, and they were willing to hurt anyone in order to complete their goals.

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Of course Axel isn't included. He wasn't one of the five apprentices.

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Yes, I know that Axel wasn't one of the apprentices. Just had a little mistype while I was explaining my views. I don't count either Roxas or Namine among the other Nobodies, but I usually do include Axel. So when I make comments about them like that, I feel that I should specifically state that I am not including Axel in that grouping. I had forgotten that I was only talking about the apprentices.

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The two Organization members I feel sorry for are Saïx and Axel. They were the only members who expressed the desire to have a heart for the sake of having a heart. Everyone else either didn't say a whole lot about it, or they were like Xemnas who only wanted the power of a heart. Actually, most of them seemed to be having a heck of a good time being Nobodies.

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I feel sorry for Axel. I don't feel sorry for Saïx. The scenes we see him in show him to be just as selfish and evil as every other member of the Organization (save Xemnas), if not more so. Everything he does, even those things that are not necessary to advance his plans, is calculated to hurt people. What reason did he have to tell Sora that Kairi didn't need him any more? The only reason for such a comment is that he was trying to cause Sora pain. He's a sadist, and I see no reason to feel sorry for him.

Saix tells Sora he has Kairi and he can't see her so he will continue to world-hop and take down more heartless. Since Roxas's keyblade can't do it anymore because he left they have to put Sora through manipulation to make him do it.

And it's true that Saix was a bastard, and hurt a lot of people just to get his heart...But Sora killed a lot of people just to keep him from his heart too. Aren't they doing the same thing?

Xemnas even says "Light and Darkness are eternal, so why do you hate us who are caught in the middle?" Now I'm not saying Xemnas was a good fellow, or his actions (or any of XIII's) were justified, but it just seemed kind of...mean to me that Sora didn't care at all. Even when Sora asks him "The heart isn't all about hate...it has a lot of emotions. Don't you remember?" And Xemnas looks sad and says "Unfortunately, I don't..." Similar to Saix stating he only wishes to exist and staring at Kingdom Hearts while saying "Kingdom Hearts...where is my heart?" I guess I thought that was pretty sad.

Also, when you defeat Finkelstein's experiement, Sally says it did the things it did because it wanted a heart and didn't have one, and Sora says "When you put it that way...I feel kinda bad for it." But not Orga XIII? Are they not the same?

Anyway, it's not like I disagree with you that XIII didn't need to be stopped, they didn't need to do the things they did, they were very ebil people who went out of their way to torture others... But they do have a goal in mind, and that's to exist. So to say they did horrible things to get their heart is the same as saying Sora does horrible things to keep them from their heart... He's killing them just like they are killing others... That's how I took it anyway.. But it's all just my opinion, so...