Revelation of the Truth

I will tell you the truth,I dont know why...
Hmm,now where do I start.
JME is only Doc Odine`s theory (The JME never work in the future)
If you remember in president palace Odine said sorceress Edea already told him everything.Is that the truth?NO If Edea already told Odine about everything he wouldn`t come up with his theory about JME.I believe Edea don`t tell everything to Odine.She only tell Odine that she is possessed by sorceress from future named Ultimecia and Ultimecia want to achieve Time Compression.Edea NEVER told Odine about her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past that is the only the explanation why Odine talk about JME.I dont know why she doesnt tell Odine,she must have her reason.And she doesnt tell to Squall either she only give Squall a hint.
So how Ultimecia possessed Edea.Its quite clear the answer is at the ending when Edea received Ultimecia`s power.Let`s just say of all sorceresesses Ultimecia is a special one.she has a motto "MY POWER IS MY LIFE".(Dont ask me why I know about it you just need to believe it).So as long as her power still exist she is still alive.So inside Edea (at that time)there`s 2 spirit(Ultimecia and Edea)Ultimecia weakened after she defeated and have to wait to gained her strenght before she can take over Edea`s body,so she just resting inside Edea before she`s strong enough to control Edea.
White SeeD were raised and trained by Edea.She is doing her best to train her children to make them strong.Edea at that time already know that someday Ultimecia will take over her body.Edea is fight back as long as she can but eventually lost to Ultimecia`s spirit.Because Ultimecia inside her,Edea already know everyting about Ultimecia.Same when Rinoa is possesed by Ultimecia.Rinoa know everything about Ultimecia.Edea knew that Ultimecia is after Ellone so she told White SeeD to protect Ellone.So Ultimecia possessed Edea with this WAY not with JME(We dont find any clue about JME in Ultimecia`s Castle,OK).With this explanation it will destroy my theory (my thread title "Denying fate i dont think so").It will expain her awareness of her fate dead at Squall`s hand.But I THINK she doesnt know her fate yet,BUT I BELIEVE she knew about her fate,well...(It looks like I have 2 opposite theories but I believe this theory).Let`s just say when we play FF VIII that is THE FIRST CIRCLE of history.So she doesnt know about her fate.Confusing?yes very confusing.
And it would explain another thing that Edea STILL a sorceress,like I said there`s 2 spirit inside Edea(Ultimecia and herself).AlSo there`s 2 sorceress`s power inside Edea.So Rinoa recieved Ultimecia`s power not Edea.Remember there`s only one way for sorceress to give away her power to someone else.If Rinoa recieved Edea`s power Edea will DIE right away.So when Rinoa in coma she recieved Ultimecia`s power(spirit) not Edea.When we fight Adel.Adel junctioned with Rinoa and then come a question who is the one controling Adel (Ultimecia or Adel herself)(it is still be arguably).After Adel defeated she pass on her power to Rinoa.Then Ellone send Rinoa and Ultimecia to the past,Ultimecia start Time Compression and back to the future along with her power and then possess her own body in the future.HEEEYYY it would EXPLAIN another thing when we fight Ultimecia in Final Battle you can see there`s TWO ULTIMECIA.WOW never thought about it (I hope you can understand it in your way).So after Squall and co travel to the future,Rinoa ONLY have Adel`s power.This is the best explanation (TRUTH).Many people are confuse about Rinoa`s power.Adel cant control Rinoa because she is dead for sure.Like I said Ultimecia is a special sorceress So she is still alive after she is defeated.(Remember her motto "MY POWER IS MY LIFE").It sounds like Ultimecia is eternal.
I know in the game Zell said Matron is not a sorceress anymore,this is just Square intention to make us believe Edea is not a sorceress anymore.Odine said Rinoa is the only sorceress in present time however we know that this is not the truth because there`s still many sorceress hidden around the world in the present time(you can read it in the tutorial)Square intended to say this(Odine said Rinoa is the only sorceress in the present) to make us dont ask "What about the other sorceress?"That is one flaw in FF VIII and I already solved it to make the REAL storyline fit.You have seperate truth and lie in FF VIII.If you find the truth follow it,if you find the lie ignore it.Then another question eventually came up,how Ultimecia know about Ellone? Ultimecia know about Ellone through JME,yes JME exist in the future but never works because JME never finished by Odine(Maybe Odine die before finished it)And NOBODY in the future can finish it.So JME in the future is only a theory (send someone`s consciousness to the past) (JME machine exist in the future BUT cant send someone consciousness to the past because not finish yet)And JME is a common knowledge in the future.That`s why Ultimecia wants to find the REAL Ellone to prove Odine`s theory about JME.So she can travel to the past and achieve Time Compression.
Hmm sounds complicated but if you spend sometime think about it,you`ll eventually get it.(If not try HARDER)
I think this is enough,I want(hope) you to read at least THREE TIMES before you post your reply,PLEASE
This is the Truth I want to tell you.

I believe that Ultimecia knew about her fate,but that is NOT the REAL reason why she want to compress time.She must have another reason(fot example to become ruler of everything).BUT I believe beside these 2 reasons there must be REAL REASON why she wants to compress time.I think we will never know what the reason IS.




Viator

Nor Edea nor Rinoa can acknowledge Ulti´s thoughts.

I have evidence that they can´t.

Quoting evidence,Ironically.

They CAN.When Ragnarok has landing and some estharian come Rinoa know about Ultimecia going to compress time and all.That`s the evidence they CAN.

Sorry, but you're ideas here are clearly not valid, as they all rest on intricate and baseless assumptions.

"My power is my life"; pure imagination.

JME doesn't work; pure imagination.

Square intentionnally deceiving us to think that Edea is no longer a sorceress; nonsense.

Rinoa only having Adels' powers when going to future; pure imagination.

Since your whole intricate idea is based on those notions, it follows that the idea itself is pure imagination (and pretty nonsensical too). Ultimecia's motives for wanting to compress time are almost certainly based on a combination of wanting to change her fate, wanting to get revenge on those who persecuted her, and becoming all powerful. Simple as that.

This explanation is the truth if you dont believe it you can smurf yourself!!!(to Sir Bahamut).
You really have to change your attitude or else you wont get anything.
Then, Sir Bahamut TELL ME the better explanation then this one.

I think Lycon is right about YOU.
You need someone to guide you into the LIGHT!!!

The better explanation was fully developed by "TheOnionKnight" and can be found in the FAQ I co-wrote (which you claimed to have read).

I still stand by what I say though. I guess I won't ever see the light :rolleyes2

PS: What's with the triple-posting? Heard of editing?

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Sorry, but you're ideas here are clearly not valid, as they all rest on intricate and baseless assumptions.
If you tell me that my idea is only a assumsption than your theory IS A ASSUMPTION TOO.

"My power is my life"; pure imagination.

Then tell me how Ultimecia still alive after that and control Edea.Please dont say with JME because idont believe you have to do something better than that.

JME doesn't work; pure imagination.

Odine said the machine must have a limit Ultimecia maybe need to go further into the past to achieve Time Compression. What a poor excuse.
JME must have a limit, GIVE ME A BREAK! It is because JME doesnt work out in the future that`s why Ultimecia need to find the REAL Ellone to achieve Time Compression.

Square intentionnally deceiving us to think that Edea is no longer a sorceress; nonsense.
Like I said if Edea give away her power she will die right away but no Edea is still alive why because she STILL have her sorceress power.There`s only one way to give away sorceress power, the prize is DEATH

Rinoa only having Adels' powers when going to future; pure imagination.
Of course She only have Adel power not Ultimecia or Edea.Because Rinoa recieved Adel power after she is death and like I said Ultimecia spirit and her power back again in herself in the future that`s why we see TWO ULTIMECIA when we fight her in Final Battle
Since your whole intricate idea is based on those notions, it follows that the idea itself is pure imagination (and pretty nonsensical too). Ultimecia's motives for wanting to compress time are almost certainly based on a combination of wanting to change her fate, wanting to get revenge on those who persecuted her, and becoming all powerful. Simple as that.

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.My idea is not imagination but the truth.Why you always say that the reason Ultimecia to compress time is to deny her fate.THAT`S YOUR IMAGINATION!!!

That my answer at post number 9 read it.

Your quoting method is a bit messed up there, but anyway.

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Then tell me how Ultimecia still alive after that and control Edea.Please dont say with JME because idont believe you have to do something better than that.

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Ultimecia is NOT alive after that, what on earth makes you think that? Ultimecia dies after giving her powers to Edea. The reason the future Ultimecia is able to control Edea is through the JME (will comment more below).

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Odine said the machine must have a limit Ultimecia maybe need to go further into the past to achieve Time Compression. What a poor excuse.
JME must have a limit, GIVE ME A BREAK! It is because JME doesnt work out in the future that`s why Ultimecia need to find the REAL Ellone to achieve Time Compression.

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So basically uo have no real argument. You just have the feeling that there must be something more. Well, that's all well and good if you're writing fan-fiction, but clearly you need support from the game to makes this claim valid. You offered no such support here.

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Like I said if Edea give away her power she will die right away but no Edea is still alive why because she STILL have her sorceress power.There`s only one way to give away sorceress power, the prize is DEATH

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The game never states that a sorceress will die when giving up her powers. It only states that a sorceress must give up her powers in order to die. Big difference. In other words, your argument here is completely baseless.

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Of course She only have Adel power not Ultimecia or Edea.Because Rinoa recieved Adel power after she is death and like I said Ultimecia spirit and her power back again in herself in the future that`s why we see TWO ULTIMECIA when we fight her in Final Battle

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Or Rinoa kept all her powers, and the reason we see two Ultimecia's is because Ultimecia has transformed herself in order to absorb time and space (which is what it says if you scan her; hence the top part can be seen as the part absorbing, and the bottom part as the human remains of Ultimecia). By Occam's Razor, this view is far simpler and thus more favourable.

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My idea is not imagination but the truth.Why you always say that the reason Ultimecia to compress time is to deny her fate.THAT`S YOUR IMAGINATION!!!

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It doesn't become the truth just because you say so. If I had said "NO IT'S NOT THE TRUTH!" what could you say in return? Please, stick to real arguments here. Anyway, it's hardly only 'my imagination'. Ultimecia bluntly proclaims that Squall is destined (ie. by fate) to defeat her, and then promptly tries to kill him. How that is not denying her fate is beyond me.

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Odine said the machine must have a limit Ultimecia maybe need to go further into the past to achieve Time Compression. What a poor excuse.
JME must have a limit, GIVE ME A BREAK! It is because JME doesnt work out in the future that`s why Ultimecia need to find the REAL Ellone to achieve Time Compression.

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Are you trying to say that the game or the characters in it lied?

Viator, please calm down and act a little more polite in your replies. Also don't double post.

We know that there`s flaws in the game

If there`s another way to pass over sorceress power without die why Estharian keep Adel in Adel`s tomb,they just can remove her power,right?And Rinoa can pass over her power without die after the ending.

If Edea already told Odine about everything why Odine come up his theory about JME?Doenst that mean Edea doesnt told Odine about everything(She doesnt told Odine about her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past)If she did why Odine talking about JME

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

Doesnt that weird that JME have a limit.
Odine said the machine must have a limit, how the hell he knows about that.it sounds far fecthed.the question is how the hell he knows about it if he is not the one who make it, doesnt that sound he just make an assumption.

JME is same with Ellone`s ability.(Only send someone consciousness into the past)
When Squall and Co send into the past in Laguna`s past we know that they only see the past,they dont possess Laguna and Co right?
If you say because Ultimecia is sorceress so she can possess another sorceress by using JME then you`re wrong.There`s no real evidence that JME ever exist.

I think JME almost identical with Time Machine.
Do you think Time Machine have a limit.

When Ultimecia transformed we see there`s is 2 Ultimecia
It would make more sense that there`s 2 Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.
(You can read it again in my theory if you dont understand fine then, believe in what you believe)

Then proof me the existance of JME (Odine`s words is not a proof its only his assumption about how Ultimecia possess another sorceress)

I believe Squall will say to the world that Sorceress Edea is possessed by Evil sorceress and that Evil sorceress already defeated when Balamb Garden VS Galbadia Garden and sorceress Edea is not evil anymore, if they dont accept this simple story how the [leeza]*snip*[/leeza] they can accept or even believe story that there`s sorceress from the future named Ultimecia the one who possessed Edea and she wants to achieve Time Compression and we already defeated her in the future and blah blah blah ...
Sometime its better to keep the truth to ourselves.

I dont say the game and character is lied
Like I said you need to seperate truth and lie because there`s flaws in the game.

If you read my theory again you will realised that with my theory the story became fit.

PS:Bahamut you`ve changed since you write time/Ultimecia theory.
Are you guys really read it 3 times(I doubt...)
Sorry the last time I dont polite because there is something bothering me.

[leeza]We have filters at this site for a reason so please do not go around them again. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

Not going to address everything, but Doc Odine knows the machine has a limit based on two things. 1- The fact that they know she can't make it far enough on her own, hence her search for Ellone, and 2- Common sense. EVERYTHING has a limit, and pretending it doesn't is such a common and egregious fallacy that it has its own name, the 'no-limits' fallacy.

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If there`s another way to pass over sorceress power without die why Estharian keep Adel in Adel`s tomb,they just can remove her power,right?

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You misunderstand. I meant that a sorceress can willingly give away powers when still alive (ie. not only just before dying), not that the powers can be extracted in some other means. That might be possible, but was obviously not something the Estharians were capable of, hence they sealed her up instead (because any other option would result in someone else getting her powers).

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And Rinoa can pass over her power without die after the ending.

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Yes. Is there anything wrong with that?

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If Edea already told Odine about everything why Odine come up his theory about JME?Doenst that mean Edea doesnt told Odine about everything(She doesnt told Odine about her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past)If she did why Odine talking about JME

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I don't understand you. How would the knowledge that Ultimecia, Edea and Squall met in the past once rule out the JME theory?

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Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

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It is weird, sure, but it is even more weird to assume that she is lying to us afterwards when she says she isn't a sorceress anymore.

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Doesnt that weird that JME have a limit.
Odine said the machine must have a limit, how the hell he knows about that.it sounds far fecthed.the question is how the hell he knows about it if he is not the one who make it, doesnt that sound he just make an assumption.

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Ryu answered this one.

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JME is same with Ellone`s ability.(Only send someone consciousness into the past)
When Squall and Co send into the past in Laguna`s past we know that they only see the past,they dont possess Laguna and Co right?
If you say because Ultimecia is sorceress so she can possess another sorceress by using JME then you`re wrong.There`s no real evidence that JME ever exist.

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Unless you come up with a damned good argument showing why JME doesn't exist, then the most logical and plausible thing is to accept what the game tells us, that the JME DOES exist. It's your job to show why the JME doesn't exist, not our job to show why it does.

As for possessing, Squall and Co didn't TRY to possess Laguna and Co. If they had, they may have been able to influence them. Ultimecia, being a powerful sorceress, has very great willpower, and went into Edea and Rinoa with the desire to possess them. It is then no wonder that she is able to do so. If she can compress and absorb time and space, she must surely be able to possess someone.

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I think JME almost identical with Time Machine.
Do you think Time Machine have a limit.

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Almost isn't good enough. Anyway, a time machine may well have a limit. As a real-life example, a time machine using a wormhole has a limit, in that you can't go further back than to the birth of the wormhole.

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When Ultimecia transformed we see there`s is 2 Ultimecia
It would make more sense that there`s 2 Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.

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No it wouldn't. Scanning Ultimecia tells us flat out that she has transformed in order to absorb time and space. From there it is perfectly plausible that her human part might remain as an appendage to her transformed self. Nothing really indicates that there are two Ultimecia's in one.

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Then proof me the existance of JME (Odine`s words is not a proof its only his assumption about how Ultimecia possess another sorceress)

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Again though, since you are the one holding the controversial and not obvious view (that Odine is wrong), it is YOUR job to prove US wrong, not vice versa. I do not need to prove that it exists, because that's what the game tells us. YOU need to prove that the game is wrong.

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I believe Squall will say to the world that Sorceress Edea is possessed by Evil sorceress and that Evil sorceress already defeated when Balamb Garden VS Galbadia Garden and sorceress Edea is not evil anymore, if they dont accept this simple story how the f@@@ they can accept or even believe story that there`s sorceress from the future named Ultimecia the one who possessed Edea and she wants to achieve Time Compression and we already defeated her in the future and blah blah blah ...
Sometime its better to keep the truth to ourselves.

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Well, considering that everyone would have fealt TC coming, I don't think people would find it that farfetched really. But still, I somehow doubt people would just go "She's not evil anymore? Oh, ok. Letæ's go on with our lives like normal". They WOULD be hostile to sorceresses.

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If you read my theory again you will realised that with my theory the story became fit.

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Sorry, but that's not true. When a theory requires several things told in the game to be wrong (JME, Edea not being sorceress etc.), and also requires unfounded assumptions (2 Ultimecia in one etc.), then it is not a good theory.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

You misunderstand. I meant that a sorceress can willingly give away powers when still alive (ie. not only just before dying)

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HOW?
Sorceress Edea is not the answer because I already explained it.


Actually I was going to say this:
Odine said the machine must have a limit, how the hell he knows about that.The question is how the hell he knows about it if JME not exist yet at that time , doesnt that sound he just make an assumption.
Odine said his JME at this time is only a toy,that means he doesnt know how JME at Ultimecia`s time works.
And he said the JME have a limit,doesnt that mean that`s only his ASSUMPTION.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

And Rinoa can pass over her power without die after the ending.Yes. Is there anything wrong with that?

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Of course that is something wrong.Because there`s only one way to give away sorceress power the prize is dead.(i.e Sorceress Adel dead after she give away her power to Rinoa)
The reason Sorceress Edea is not dead because it`s Ultimecia`s power that get away from her, not her sorceress power.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

If Edea already told Odine about everything why Odine come up his theory about JME?Doenst that mean Edea doesnt told Odine about everything(She doesnt told Odine about her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past)If she did why Odine talking about JME.
I don't understand you. How would the knowledge that Ultimecia, Edea and Squall met in the past once rule out the JME theory?

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Because that simple knowledge can explain everything.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.
It is weird, sure, but it is even more weird to assume that she is lying to us afterwards when she says she isn't a sorceress anymore.

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Like I said it`s Square`s intention to make us believe that Edea is not a sorceress anymore.
(you still not answer this question yet.)
I want to say this once more : There`s FLAWS in the game.I'm sure everyone realised that.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Unless you come up with a damned good argument showing why JME doesn't exist, then the most logical and plausible thing is to accept what the game tells us, that the JME DOES exist. It's your job to show why the JME doesn't exist, not our job to show why it does.

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You misunderstood me.I mean JME does exist,I only say that JME doesnt work that`s all,Got that?
JME that Odine talking about is only his ASSUMPTION about how Ultimecia possessed the other sorceress.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Ultimecia, being a powerful sorceress, has very great willpower, and went into Edea and Rinoa with the desire to possess them. It is then no wonder that she is able to do so. If she can compress and absorb time and space, she must surely be able to possess someone.

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This is not an answer.It is only your believe,no?

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Well, considering that everyone would have fealt TC coming, I don't think people would find it that farfetched really. But still, I somehow doubt people would just go "She's not evil anymore? Oh, ok. Letæ's go on with our lives like normal". They WOULD be hostile to sorceresses.

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People cant felt TC because TC is not completed yet.
Of course people would just go "She's not evil anymore?"
Squall will prove that Edea is kind hearted and all.Squall will give Edea's history, that she's is Kind Matron,she build orphanage for orphans.
This is evidence to show to the world that Edea basically Good sorceress before she's possessed by Evil sorceress.
From the beginning of history human already hostile to sorceresses.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

No it wouldn't. Scanning Ultimecia tells us flat out that she has transformed in order to absorb time and space. From there it is perfectly plausible that her human part might remain as an appendage to her transformed self. Nothing really indicates that there are two Ultimecia's in one.

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There`s indication, in that Final Battle you can attack 2 Ultimecia.That`s the indication,no?

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Almost isn't good enough. Anyway, a time machine may well have a limit. As a real-life example, a time machine using a wormhole has a limit, in that you can't go further back than to the birth of the wormhole.

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That`s only a THEORY,OK! There`s nothing we can argue in here.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

then the most logical and plausible thing is to accept what the game tells us.

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How can we accept everything the game tells us,if there`s FLAWS in the game.

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Actually I was going to say this:
Odine said the machine must have a limit, how the hell he knows about that.The question is how the hell he knows about it if JME not exist yet at that time , doesnt that sound he just make an assumption.
Odine said his JME at this time is only a toy,that means he doesnt know how JME at Ultimecia`s time works.
And he said the JME have a limit,doesnt that mean that`s only his ASSUMPTION.

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YOU ARE COMMITING A NO LIMITS FALLACY! ODINE KNOWS THERE'S A DAMN LIMIT BECAUSE EVERYTHING HAS A LIMIT, OKAY?

Odine 'knows' how the JME of the future works because he built a prototype. Though little more than a toy, it must somehow work, since he guesses that future, more powerful versions will be created as his working design is refined. It's not that hard of a conclusion to arrive at.

And please, elucidate which flaws you speak of. They must be pretty major to require such a big rewrite of the story that Square is supporting.

That is not good answer.

Are you people blind or what,of course there`s flaws in the game?
You should figure it out on youself if you claim that you already finished the game.

No, Insisting that him knowing that there's some sort of limit is a baseless assumption is not a good argument to begin with.

Concession accepted on the flaws. If you can't elucidate what they are, there is no point in me worrying about them.

Odine said that JME have a limit is PURE ASSUMPSION (ODINE`S ASSUMPTION)

It`s hard to believe that you can`t notice the flaws.
Like I said you have to figure it out on yourself.
If you cant then try HARDER.

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HOW?
Sorceress Edea is not the answer because I already explained it.

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What do you mean how? They just give away their powers, then carry on living.

As for Edea, your case is very weak. The two possible theories as to why Edea didn't die after giving up her powers are, 1) a sorceress doesn't have to die after giving up powers, or 2) Edea didn't give up all her powers.

Theory 2 requires that Edea specifically lies to us when she says she is no longer a sorceress, ie. that Square deliberately put in misleading information which serves no purpose to the plot at all (as Edea's powers are never in the centre of things again later). Considering that nothing actually speaks against theory 1, clearly it is by far the strongest theory.

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Of course that is something wrong.Because there`s only one way to give away sorceress power the prize is dead.(i.e Sorceress Adel dead after she give away her power to Rinoa)
The reason Sorceress Edea is not dead because it`s Ultimecia`s power that get away from her, not her sorceress power.

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Sorceress Adel gave up her powers before dying because she had been killed by Squall and Co, and as the game states, a sorceress needs to rid herself of her powers in order to die. But this in no way implies the opposite (giving up powers means death), as commented on above.

The fact is that for your idea to work, you need to assume Edea is lying/not telling the truth. This is a purely baseless assumption, hence the theory is not valid.

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Because that simple knowledge can explain everything.

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And how is that?

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Like I said it`s Square`s intention to make us believe that Edea is not a sorceress anymore.
(you still not answer this question yet.)
I want to say this once more : There`s FLAWS in the game.I'm sure everyone realised that.

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It isn't a question to be answered. Unless you get an official confirmation from Square that they were deliberately trying to mislead us, then fine, but until then your claim is ludicrous.

And yes, there ARE flaws in the game (eg. time compression fails to fully make sense when scrutinised) but those flaws are generally obvious to see, and can't really be seen as anything but a flaw. But what exactly is your point?

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You misunderstood me.I mean JME does exist,I only say that JME doesnt work that`s all,Got that?
JME that Odine talking about is only his ASSUMPTION about how Ultimecia possessed the other sorceress.

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And considering that Odine's assumptions were made up by Square, he carries far more weight than you do. Hence unless you show why we shouldn't believe his 'assumption', it can be considered canon.

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This is not an answer.It is only your believe,no?

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Tell me then, do you really believe that a sorceress who can compress time itself, and absorb the entire universe, as well as brining statues to life, manifest GF's out of thin air and read people's minds would really have a problem with possessing someone?

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People cant felt TC because TC is not completed yet.

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Squall and Co feel TC yet TC isn't finished then either...

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Of course people would just go "She's not evil anymore?"
Squall will prove that Edea is kind hearted and all.Squall will give Edea's history, that she's is Kind Matron,she build orphanage for orphans.
This is evidence to show to the world that Edea basically Good sorceress before she's possessed by Evil sorceress.
From the beginning of history human already hostile to sorceresses.

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If you take a look at human history (eg. witch hunts) I think you'll find people are usually a bit less merciful than what you think.

However, let's say they believe the story about Edea. That however leaves the question as to who the sorceress who possessed her was. Unless a good identity is given, people are in no way going to buy into the story that she was just possessed. It's like; "Don't worry, she's not evil, she was just possessed!". "By who?!". "Oh, no one...".

No one would buy into that. Eventually Ultimecia would have to be revealed. Whatever happens, sorceresses would be loathed by the public even more than before.

Quote:

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There`s indication, in that Final Battle you can attack 2 Ultimecia.That`s the indication,no?

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Come on, did you not read what I said? The fact that there are 2 targets in Ultimecia's final form has a perfectly good alternate explanation which I shared in my last post.

Quote:

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How can we accept everything the game tells us,if there`s FLAWS in the game.

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It's not good enough to say that there are flaws in the game. You have to specifically point out flaws which cannot be seen as anything but flaws, and then show how those flaws support your theory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Odine said that JME have a limit is PURE ASSUMPSION (ODINE`S ASSUMPTION)

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Actually, no, it's not. It is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to draw if you actually take the time to think things through. Junction Machine Ellone was based off of Ellone's powers. Now then, Ellone had her limits: She could only send you back into people that she knows. If the JME is a reproduction of her ability, then it could well suffer from the same limitation. It must have some interaction with someone in order to send you back into that person. Thus JME can send you back at most a single generation past the point it was created, as it would have no one to send you into if you go back further. Thus, in order to reach further into the past, you would need the powers of Ellone herself. It isn't a nonsense excuse, it is an explanation that fits the in game evidence that we have.

As per the usual, Sir Bahamut has basically said everything I would and pretty much debunked your theory 100%.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

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This is one of flaws in the game to show to us that Edea is STILL a sorceress,no one can deny this fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

It is weird, sure, but it is even more weird to assume that she is lying to us afterwards when she says she isn't a sorceress anymore.

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Actually she's not lying to us it`s only Square`Intention.Maybe Square realised this mistake,but they just leave it because that's just the way it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

The fact is that for your idea to work, you need to assume Edea is lying/not telling the truth. This is a purely baseless assumption, hence the theory is not valid.

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Edea is not lying it's only Square'Intention to make her lie.
JUST THINK ABOUT IT!
If Square make Edea still a sorceress that would destroy the plot because at that time we would asking how Rinoa become a sorceress.
If Square make Edea is no longer a sorceress that would make a flaw, maybe some people wont notice this flaw.The flaw is this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

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That's why it would better to make Edea is no longer a sorceress because most people wont notice this flaw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

People cant felt TC because TC is not completed yet.
Squall and Co feel TC yet TC isn't finished then either...

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Yeah I forget to say only Squall and Co can felt TC.
Squall and Co can felt TC because they get inside TC.
If everyone can felt TC,eveyone already go to the future like Squall and Co did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

What do you mean how? They just give away their powers, then carry on living.

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If they can give away their sorceress power,why Edea doesnt do it in the begining.Edea said :
Sorceress Ultimecia is alive. She is able to take control of my body at any time. If that were to happen... I would once again bring terror. I, too, value my self-being. I want to protect myself. If it were possible, I would like to rid myself of the sorceress' power.Doctor Odine may know a way. He may be able to save me.
She said Doctor Odine might know a way that means Edea doesnt know how to get rid of her sorceress power.Other sorceresses dont know how to get rid their power either except dead.
AND it figured out that Odine doesnt knows HOW either.(i.e Odine can't get rid of Adel's power).

[QUOTE+Sir Bahamut]Because that simple knowledge can explain everything.
And how is that?[/QUOTE]

That simple knowledge is Edea explain her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past.With this simple knowledge,almost everything can be explained.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

And considering that Odine's assumptions were made up by Square, he carries far more weight than you do. Hence unless you show why we shouldn't believe his 'assumption', it can be considered canon.

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You have to know that assumption is the thing that can be RIGHT and WRONG.You shouldn'd believe his assumption because it's just assumptsion,no more than that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

And yes, there ARE flaws in the game (eg. time compression fails to fully make sense when scrutinised) but those flaws are generally obvious to see, and can't really be seen as anything but a flaw. But what exactly is your point? It's not good enough to say that there are flaws in the game. You have to specifically point out flaws which cannot be seen as anything but flaws, and then show how those flaws support your theory.

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The flaw is Edea is no longer a sorceress.
I already show you that Edea is STILL a sorceress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

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Because with this flaw it would lead to another question.
Where Rinoa get her power from?.It's sure not from Edea because she's STILL a sorceress.
The answer of that question is Ultimecia's power

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

However, let's say they believe the story about Edea. That however leaves the question as to who the sorceress who possessed her was. Unless a good identity is given, people are in no way going to buy into the story that she was just possessed. It's like; "Don't worry, she's not evil, she was just possessed!". "By who?!". "Oh, no one...".
No one would buy into that. Eventually Ultimecia would have to be revealed. Whatever happens, sorceresses would be loathed by the public even more than before.

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Like I said Edea possessed by Evil Sorceress,Squall just can come up with random name,no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Tell me then, do you really believe that a sorceress who can compress time itself, and absorb the entire universe, as well as brining statues to life, manifest GF's out of thin air and read people's minds would really have a problem with possessing someone?

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Then why she can defeated by Squall and Co?Sorry this is not a question.
I already explained how Ultimecia possessed Edea.It's only your turn to believe it or not,that's all the matters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Come on, did you not read what I said? The fact that there are 2 targets in Ultimecia's final form has a perfectly good alternate explanation which I shared in my last post.
the reason we see two Ultimecia's is because Ultimecia has transformed herself in order to absorb time and space (which is what it says if you scan her; hence the top part can be seen as the part absorbing, and the bottom part as the human remains of Ultimecia).

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With that explanation it shows us that there`s TWO Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.We can attack TWO Ultimecia,that's another explanation,that show us that there's two Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Odine said the machine must have a limit, how the hell he knows about that.The question is how the hell he knows about it if JME not exist yet at that time , doesnt that sound he just make an assumption.
Odine said his JME at this time is only a toy,that means he doesnt know how JME at Ultimecia`s time works.
And he said the JME have a limit,doesnt that mean that`s only his ASSUMPTION.
JME that Odine talking about is only his ASSUMPTION about how Ultimecia possessed the other sorceress.

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This statement still valid,that its only Odine's assumption about JME.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

The fact is that for your idea to work, you need to assume Edea is lying/not telling the truth. This is a purely baseless assumption, hence the theory is not valid.

---

EDEA IS LYING. I already show to you that Edea is STILL a sorceress
I will show to you once more time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

---

Actually she's not lying to us it`s only Square`Intention.Maybe Square realised this mistake,but they just leave it because that's just the way it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

then the most logical and plausible thing is to accept what the game tells us.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

How can we accept everything the game tells us,if there`s FLAWS in the game.

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You have to seperate truth and lie because there's FLAWS in the game.

Note: Edea said "the sorceress' power. Not "My sorceress' power. She refers to Ulti's ability to take over her mind, and hoped Odine could give her something to solve the problem.

Yes you´re completely right despite Edea having lost her own powers she can still be possesed by Ultimecia and that´s why she needs to speak with Dr. Odine to free her of that burden.

Actually Edea WAS talking of her own powers (the ones she didn't have that is), as evidenced by this line:

Edea: ......... In the meantime, something must be done to suppress my powers... (from Game Script at GameFAQs).

I'll get back to this later though.

Quote:

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Yeah I forget to say only Squall and Co can felt TC.
Squall and Co can felt TC because they get inside TC.
If everyone can felt TC,eveyone already go to the future like Squall and Co did.

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Squall and Co went to the future because they were prepared and had the willpower to get there. If anyone else went into TC, they probably wouldn't have any idea what hit them, and would be absorbed immediately.

In other words, your assumption that only Squall and Co feel TC is baseless; TC encompasses all of time, not just Squall and Co!

Quote:

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If they can give away their sorceress power,why Edea doesnt do it in the begining.Edea said :
Sorceress Ultimecia is alive. She is able to take control of my body at any time. If that were to happen... I would once again bring terror. I, too, value my self-being. I want to protect myself. If it were possible, I would like to rid myself of the sorceress' power.Doctor Odine may know a way. He may be able to save me.
She said Doctor Odine might know a way that means Edea doesnt know how to get rid of her sorceress power.Other sorceresses dont know how to get rid their power either except dead.
AND it figured out that Odine doesnt knows HOW either.(i.e Odine can't get rid of Adel's power).

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Edea doesn't give away her powers because that would merely mean placing her troubles on someone else. She simply didn't want anyone else to be in her position (as proven by the ending where she accepts Ultimecia's powers so the children will not become a sorceress). In other words, she DID know of a way, but was not willing to accept that way. She wanted another, more final way, and hoped Odine had the answer.

Now, Odine DOES know how:

Dr. Odine: Zat will be easy.

Dr. Odine: We just exorcise the sorceress. There iz nothing Odine
cannot do.

He merely didn't know when Adel was sealed up (more than 10 years ago).

Now, here's the deal with Edea:

It IS weird that she didn't realise she was no longer a sorceress. Although some possible explanations might be given (she didn't wish to use her powers anymore at all for instance, so she never noticed she had lost them), none are really satisfactory. However, the only thing we can infer from this is that Square did a bit of bad storytelling. They say black and white that Edea lost her powers at the end of disc 2, but don't have her realise this until after a long time. That is obviously a bit of a plothole.

But one cannot from there draw the assumption that Edea actually still WAS a sorceress, because it implies that Square put in a line which contradicted the plot. Plot-holes may exist, but not blatantly false statements like "Edea is not a sorceress" when in fact she is.

It's weird, but only a plothole.

Quote:

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That simple knowledge is Edea explain her meeting with Squall and Ultimecia in the past.With this simple knowledge,almost everything can be explained.

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Only because you believe the "MY POWER IS MY LIFE" thing which you have yet to back up at all. Since the game makes no mention of this, the knowledge that Edea met Ultimecia would not provide a better explanation than the JME to Odine.

Quote:

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You have to know that assumption is the thing that can be RIGHT and WRONG.You shouldn'd believe his assumption because it's just assumptsion,no more than that.

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We have no reason not to believe him. No part of the game contradicts his assumption, and it is never suggested he was wrong. Further, the Ultimania never states anything suggesting he was incorrect either. Hence it can be considered official that his assumption was correct.

Quote:

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Like I said Edea possessed by Evil Sorceress,Squall just can come up with random name,no?

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Effect would be the same; the people would fear and hate sorceresses.

Quote:

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With that explanation it shows us that there`s TWO Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.We can attack TWO Ultimecia,that's another explanation,that show us that there's two Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.

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No, it shows that Ultimecia is in two parts, not that there are two of her in one. There's a difference.

Quote:

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Then why she can defeated by Squall and Co?Sorry this is not a question.
I already explained how Ultimecia possessed Edea.It's only your turn to believe it or not,that's all the matters.

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They could beat them because they were fated to do so.

Quote:

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This statement still valid,that its only Odine's assumption about JME.

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Yes, and as he is the greatest scientist in FF8 and his assumptions were written by Square, there is no reason to doubt him.

To sum up

Your case could be quite good in principle as it is fairly logical. However, it rests upon a gross exaggeration of what is really just a minor plothole on Square's side. There is simply no reason to believe that Edea was not telling the truth. Believing she does tell the truth only leaves us with a slightly lacking script. Believing she doesn't leaves us with a completely contradictory script and a whole lot of unexplained questions.

As such, it is only logical to assume she is telling the truth.

Dont talk about JME thing again because it's useless,let's talk it in another time.
The key to make my theory work is Edea's power.

I have show and PROVE to you that Edea is STILL a SORCERESS.
Edea still a sorceress that means Rinoa doesnt have Edea's power.
So she become a sorceress because Ultimecia's power.When she's in coma she only have Ultimecia's power.(You can read it in my theory)
And because Edea STILL a sorceress my theory IS TRUE.

[OUOTE=Sir Bahamut]In other words, she DID know of a way, but was not willing to accept that way. She wanted another, more final way, and hoped Odine had the answer.[/QUOTE]

she didnt know a way! And Odine cant help her either.
AND it figured out that Odine doesnt knows HOW either.(i.e Odine can't get rid of Adel's power).
Odine only said
Dr. Odine: We just exorcise the sorceress. There iz nothing Odine
cannot do.
He only exorcise the sorceress,he doesnt know how to remove sorceress' power.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

JUST THINK ABOUT IT!
If Square make Edea still a sorceress that would destroy the plot because at that time we would asking how Rinoa become a sorceress.
If Square make Edea is no longer a sorceress that would make a flaw, maybe some people wont notice this flaw.The flaw isthis:
Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.
That's why it would better to make Edea is no longer a sorceress because most people wont notice this flaw.

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Actually Square should make Edea still a sorceress but they didnt.
Even they make Edea STILL a sorceress they wont destroy the plot.(storyline).
IF they make Edea still a sorceress it would destroy the surprise we'll find later.The surprise is at the ending.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Only because you believe the "MY POWER IS MY LIFE" thing which you have yet to back up at all. Since the game makes no mention of this, the knowledge that Edea met Ultimecia would not provide a better explanation than the JME to Odine.

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Actually the "MY POWER IS MY LIFE" thing CAN explain everything.
And can make the storyline PERFECT!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Like I said Edea possessed by Evil Sorceress,Squall just can come up with random name,no?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Effect would be the same; the people would fear and hate sorceresses.

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I already explain to you that future generation wont know anything about Ultimecia.It only your turn to believe my theory about Ultimecia's history wont get recorded.If you still believe your theory fine.


Let's not talk about 2 Ultimecia thing again until I find more explanation
Well if you find any thought about 2 Ultimecia thing just tell me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

They could beat them because they were fated to do so.

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What do you mean THEM? You mean TWO Ultimecia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

This statement still valid,that its only Odine's assumption about JME.
Yes, and as he is the greatest scientist in FF8 and his assumptions were written by Square, there is no reason to doubt him.

---

ASSUMPTION is the thing can be RIGHT and WRONG.
Even the Greatest Scientist CAN BE WRONG.

Actually Time Compression ONLY absorb Time and Space.
Actually Human is NOT part of Time and Space.
They just exist in Time and Space.
So when Time Compression start it only absorb Time and Space not human,Squall and Co is an EXCEPTION
When TC is completed all existance would get inside TC like to
become A Single Point.

I believe Human can't felt TC because TC never completed only Squall and Co can felt it.

Time Compression is MYSTERIES YET UNSOLVED.
Time Compression is SO INDEFINABLE.
Time Compression is BEYOND OUR KNOWLEDGE,OUR IMAGINATION,OUR DREAMS
OUR VISIONS,OUR UNDERSTANDING OR WHATEVER LEFT.

Then the most logical and plausible thing is to accept what the game tells us.
How can we accept everything the game tells us,if there`s FLAWS in the game.
You have to seperate truth and lie because there's FLAWS in the game.

It looks like nobody believes my theory,seems like this is going to be a LONG struggle.And I dont have much time left.

Ah, forget it.

Your theory involves making a new plot out of a tiny plot hole. It requires us to think of the whole game as being different than it is said to be; Edea didn't give up her powers, Rinoa has Ultimecia's powers, and Ultimecia never did her possessing from the future with the JME, she was inside Edea in the present all along, because "Her power is her life". The only thing this is derived from is this little plot hole.

You say the game has flaws, and indeed this is one of them. However, why can you simply not see them as flaws, and nothing more? It's up to you of course, but I'm not about to 'believe' your theory, I'm afraid. It's just a plot hole.

Especially when it's more plausible to think that yes, Edea had Ultimecia's powers--and she could recognize that, and have it count as 'knowing' and have that be the explanation for how Ulti could use JME to reach that far back, whether she knew or not that those were 'her' powers--they were the same exact powers, so there was a link.

Plot holes, maybe, but this stuff can be explained without reworking the plot, but instead explaining elements in terms of the plot.

Now you already realised that there's plothole in story.
Actually the plotholes in the game CAN destroy the REAL STORYLINE.
My theory is to close this plothole to make story PERFECT!
My new plots here to close that plotholes that exist in the game.
You still can't accept my theory because you already have your own perspective about FF8.
But believe me your perspective about FF8 have ERRORS
And if you accept my theory you wont find any ERRORS again.
Now I want you to forget about Square or anything like that.
You have to focus on REAL STORYLINE that I have made.
Then you'll realised that I was RIGHT in the begining.
If you still can't accept my theory yet,you have to read my theory everyday,so someday you'll realised my theory is TRUE!

I already found another explaination about 2 Ultimecia,here it is :
You know twin right?they are 2 person with same appearance.
But there's also twin in one body which means that there's 2 person in one body.
It's same with 2 Ultimecia,there's 2 Ultimecia in one body.
I know this is not good explanation... Not bad either I guess...
With this explaination it makes my theory about 2 Ultimecia stronger.
That there's 2 Ultimecia inside Ultimecia.

I believe there's 2 Ultimecia inside Ultimecia
And you believe there's only 1 Ultimecia.
We both have give many explanations about 2 Ultimecia thing which is maybe contradict with each other.
BUT in my theory it explains that there's 2 Ultimecia inside Ultimecia PERFECTLY.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Ellone send Rinoa and Ultimecia to the past,Ultimecia start Time Compression and back to the future along with her power and then possess her own body in the future.HEEEYYY it would EXPLAIN another thing when we fight Ultimecia in Final Battle you can see there`s TWO ULTIMECIA.WOW never thought about it (I hope you can understand it in your way).

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With my theory I already prove that Rinoa ONLY have Adel's power.

You lost me at "You have to focus on REAL STORYLINE that I have made.", which succintly proved that you are naught more than a crazed conspiracy theorist. Your "REAL STORYLINE" is not Plausible, much less probable.

Quote:

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You still can't accept my theory because you already have your own perspective about FF8.
But believe me your perspective about FF8 have ERRORS
And if you accept my theory you wont find any ERRORS again.

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This is a pretty bold statement I will said and I choose not to believe or accept your theory.

Quote:

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You lost me at "You have to focus on REAL STORYLINE that I have made.", which succintly proved that you are naught more than a crazed conspiracy theorist. Your "REAL STORYLINE" is not Plausible, much less probable.

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The reason I say that is because the storyline that Square made had Plotholes and flaws.
And my theory here to close those plotholes and flaws to make REAL STORYLINE PERFECT!
REAL STORYLINE that I have made is my theory.

Quote:

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You still can't accept my theory because you already have your own perspective about FF8.
But believe me your perspective about FF8 have ERRORS
And if you accept my theory you wont find any ERRORS again.

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Maybe this is bold statement BUT nothing wrong in this statement.

What am I doing is just telling the truth.
And if you dont believe the truth fine, have it your way.

Christmas tell me the reason why you dont believe my theory?
(this goes for anybody else too).Just tell me.

Simply closing plot holes with wild stories won't do it, especially if said wild stories are inherently non parsimonious.

Besides, your 'real' story has flaws of its own, but seeing as you didn't feel the need to explain what the flaws in the actual story were, I see no reason to explain yours to you.

Agreed, Viator, granted Square has plotholes in their games, however, these plotholes are in my opinion essential to the game! We can always debate this. Viator, also your theory about two Ultimecias.....one word: Huh? I strongly doubt she would have sent Squall and the others too far into the past.....As for your Edea theory about not being able to lose her powers except for death, there is a fine line between knowing how to lose your powers and being able to. Alot of people on this thread have extremely good points. Take them to heart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Simply closing plot holes with wild stories won't do it, especially if said wild stories are inherently non parsimonious.

Besides, your 'real' story has flaws of its own, but seeing as you didn't feel the need to explain what the flaws in the actual story were, I see no reason to explain yours to you.

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The reason you dont explain it to me because you dont find any flaws in my story.If you find flaws just say it,so I can solved the problem to make you understand.

I already prove that Edea still a sorceress.
I will tell you one more time
If Edea is STILL a sorceress that means Rinoa doesnt have Edea's power.When Rinoa went into come she only have Ultimecia's power

And because Edea is STILL a sorceress my theory is TRUE.

If you dont understand my theory just tell me,so I can make you understand my theory.

Dont JUST said "I don't believe your theory,bye bye."

You have to tell me why you dont believe with my theory.
So I can solved your problem.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE GAME AS A PLAYER YOU WON'T GET ANYTHING EXCEPT ENTERTAINMENT.
YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THE GAME AS A CHARACTER.

How many times must this be specified, anyway?

We do not believe your theory because we believe that the tiny plot hole you're basing it on (Edea not knowing she wasn't a sorceress) is nothing but a bit of bad writing on Square's part.

There are two options, see; either you consider it just a bit of bad writing and don't let it affect the entire plot of the game, or you can assume it is a highly important piece of information which drastically alters the plot. We simply find the latter to be too farfetched to be believable.

Simple as that.

Why should I change my mind if I'm right.
That plothole actually affected the entire plot in the game.
Before I tell you,you still believe that Rinoa had all sorceress power (Edea,Ultimecia,Adel)
But after I tell that Edea is still a sorceress,you realised that there's a plothole.
Because Edea still a sorceress that means Rinoa doesnt have Edea's power,she only has Ultimecia's power when she went into coma.
Because Edea STILL a sorceress my theory is TRUE

Just tell me specific what is wrong with my theory so I can solved it.

Because Edea isn't still a Sorceress--there's no reason to believe that she is. The limit break she uses doesn't have to be Sorceress magic any more than the limit breaks of the main characters do--they're all just para-magic powered by adrenaline, in all likelihood. Furthermore, it would be impossible for Ultimecia to have possessed Rinoa had she /not/ been a Sorceress. Why think 'oh, the game must be lying?' when instead we can look at Edea's past--a past in which she has for some time been mentally dominated--and think that her sense were simply still addled, and thus she didn't realize she didn't have her powers because she never made the attempt to use them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qurange

Because Edea isn't still a Sorceress--there's no reason to believe that she is. The limit break she uses doesn't have to be Sorceress magic any more than the limit breaks of the main characters do--they're all just para-magic powered by adrenaline, in all likelihood. Furthermore, it would be impossible for Ultimecia to have possessed Rinoa had she /not/ been a Sorceress. Why think 'oh, the game must be lying?' when instead we can look at Edea's past--a past in which she has for some time been mentally dominated--and think that her sense were simply still addled, and thus she didn't realize she didn't have her powers because she never made the attempt to use them.

---

I already prove that Edea still a sorceress

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Actually Edea WAS talking of her own powers (the ones she didn't have that is), as evidenced by this line:

Edea: ......... In the meantime, something must be done to suppress my powers... (from Game Script at GameFAQs).

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Edea said "My power" that means she is STILL a sorceress"

You can find more answer at post no 22 and 26.

Because of this plothole most people after beat the game believe that Edea is no longer a sorceress.But I already prove that Edea STILL a sorceress.

In the ending we see that Edea recieved Ultimecia's power that means Edea had TWO sorceresses powers inside her.
Edea gives Ultimecia's power to Rinoa not her sorceress power.
That means Edea is STILL a sorceress because she STILL have her power.
Rinoa became a sorceress because Ultimecia's power NOT Edea's power.
And because as I stated "of all sorceresesses Ultimecia is a special one.she has a motto "MY POWER IS MY LIFE".(Dont ask me why I know about it you just need to believe it)"
Because her power is her life that means she lives inside Rinoa when she went into coma.That's why she can control Rinoa.
Maybe this sounds farfetced but this is however the TRUTH.

I hope you now understand Qurange.

You dont need Square to make a comfirmation that Edea still a sorceress.Because I already PROVE IT!

You dont need to prove god exist to make sure human exist.

If you still can't accept the truth,well what can I say.
We are only human
It looks like you people dont pay too much attention in this thread.
This thread is REVELATION.

Actually, all YOU'VE shown is that Edea is unaware that she is no longer a sorceress and horribly horribly mangle a quote to turn the story into what you believe it should be, even though the change is pointless and somewhat detrimental

NO, I've shown and Prove that Edea is STILL a sorceress
And because Edea is STILL a sorceress,of course it will change the story.
After the ending Edea STILL a sorceress.

Well, it's obvious that you don't have any intentions of backing down any time soon, so I don't have anything to add to what Ryu just said. I guess that means we're all living in the dark, but I can live with that :rolleyes2

Good to know I am not the only one.

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Odine said that JME have a limit is PURE ASSUMPSION (ODINE`S ASSUMPTION)

It`s hard to believe that you can`t notice the flaws.
Like I said you have to figure it out on yourself.
If you cant then try HARDER.

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Same with my theories.

Sure, what if Edea is still a Sorceress?

Anyway, I like the way you proclaim your theory as the "TRUTH" while asking others why they do not believe in the "TRUTH". If this is really the "TRUTH" then that is no denying it and it doesn't matters if people believe it or not instead of going around preaching your "TRUTH" insisting people to believe in it.

Like the way I believed PUPU IS THE TRUE HERO OF FF VIII as the
"TRUTH" but no one believes it anyway.

Quote:

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Odine said that JME have a limit is PURE ASSUMPSION (ODINE`S ASSUMPTION)

It`s hard to believe that you can`t notice the flaws.
Like I said you have to figure it out on yourself.
If you cant then try HARDER.

---

The whole statement here is also PURE ASSUMPTION. (YOUR ASSUMPTION)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

Same with my theories.

---

A machine like JME exists and can be seen on the game along with its advanced version,Viator.However the machine is not there on Ulti´s time.
I will gladly tell you through PM the locations of that machines.
But I also agree that the limit thingy was an excuse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Well, it's obvious that you don't have any intentions of backing down any time soon, so I don't have anything to add to what Ryu just said. I guess that means we're all living in the dark, but I can live with that.

---

Why should I backing down if I am right.
Well Sir B just say it,I will listen.

How can you live in the dark Sir B,tell me?

You people dont live in the dark again because I already give the LIGHT.
All you have to do is follow the LIGHT to leave the dark.(Just kidding)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Christmas

Sure, what if Edea is still a Sorceress?

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You can find the answer at post no 1,22,26.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Christmas

Anyway, I like the way you proclaim your theory as the "TRUTH" while asking others why they do not believe in the "TRUTH". If this is really the "TRUTH" then that is no denying it and it doesn't matters if people believe it or not instead of going around preaching your "TRUTH" insisting people to believe in it.

---

And I like your statement.
People believe or dont believe it all comes down to circumtances.
From beginning I already say the "truth" but people tend to believe "theory" than the "truth",that's why I change the word "truth"
into "theory".And my theory is the "TRUTH".
Christmas,sometimes you are really weird.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Christmas

Like the way I believed PUPU IS THE TRUE HERO OF FF VIII as the "TRUTH" but no one believes it anyway.

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The reason people dont believe it because we are only human.
Human can seperate truth and lie.But sometimes they CAN'T.

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Odine said that JME have a limit is PURE ASSUMPSION (ODINE`S ASSUMPTION)

It`s hard to believe that you can`t notice the flaws.
Like I said you have to figure it out on yourself.
If you cant then try HARDER.

The whole statement here is also PURE ASSUMPTION. (YOUR ASSUMPTION)

---

If my statement is PURE ASSUMPTION that mean Odine's statement is also PURE ASSUMPTION.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Future Esthar

A machine like JME exists and can be seen on the game along with its advanced version,Viator.However the machine is not there on Ulti´s time.
I will gladly tell you through PM the locations of that machines.
But I also agree that the limit thingy was an excuse

---

I believe JME never works.
Yeah you are right the limit thingy was an excuse.
People will realized it when they find the truth.

There's only few people in this thread where is the others?

Okay, so if your assumptions against the real storylines in the game are true then what did that change? Did your assumptions influence anything in the game? If that's the case then what kind are you referring to, and what will that change? Personally, everything what the game tells us are simple and plausible, let's just stick to that way, I guess.

But for now, I'll try to interact your theory and the real storylines from the game because some of your parts you have proclaimed confused me a bit, so let's recap. (Sorry if I mislead anything)

During the event when Adel is being defected, so that means someone (specifically Rinoa) has to be inherited from Adel's powers in order to die naturally (Adel). Correct? If that's the case, then visa versa. In that time, Rinoa finally has Adel powers but the confusing part is that when Rinoa has Adel's powers and Edea's powers and Ultimecia can posses her any time, well maybe that's not important but then does that mean that she can get as many powers from other sorceresses too? That part does look like that she's becoming more powerful because she has absorbed other sorceresses powers or something, it could be the reason that she became into the same position as Ultimecia with the related powers in the future? Know what I mean?

After Adel, Rinoa went into the place near Esther where she was being exorcized by the machine, I don't really know the purpose of that place (I didn't pay attention to that part in the game), then Squall came to rescue her by slashing the wires that were connected to Rinoa anyway. After that part, Rinoa seemed faintly but does she still have the powers (Adel and Edea's powers) or some powers inside her are gone? That's another confusing part too.

About that JME thing, does it really matter if it has a limit or not? But as someone in this thread has stated that JME has a limitation (stating that Ellone can send you back to the past only if she knows you anyway) but that word "limitation" doesn't seem right to me, it's sort of like a principle to me because if she doesn't know you then she can't send you back, simple as that. In other words, almost everything have principles in order to success, right? But anyway, I don't know any outcomes from JME having a "limit", can you explain?

Machines like JME can last forever, right? Well.. maybe.. machines would neeed amounts of fuels to continue forever.. no limits.. hehe

Maybe characters from the game can assume that may be not true, right? Then assumptions by Odine isn't the only one.. who knows really, but everything from the game seems plausible to me anyway.. not all, just few. If you are right, then it's just a flaw.. but only 1 flaw from what we are talking about. I mean, there should be more flaws than just one in the game.. I don't know really

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Originally Posted by Viator

Why should I backing down if I am right.
Well Sir B just say it,I will listen.

How can you live in the dark Sir B,tell me?

You people dont live in the dark again because I already give the LIGHT.
All you have to do is follow the LIGHT to leave the dark.(Just kidding)

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You sound like some religious leader desperately trying to recruit someone to be part of your religion.

Quote:

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You can find the answer at post no 1,22,26.

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No.

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People believe or dont believe it all comes down to circumtances.
From beginning I already say the "truth" but people tend to believe "theory" than the "truth",that's why I change the word "truth"
into "theory".And my theory is the "TRUTH".

---

Like I said if it is the truth, there is no denying it whether it is a story or a song or a poem or a theory. The point here is that your theory here is not convincing enough for others to believe while you are the only one who think and believe it is convincing. In other words, it is your own personal belief that it is the "truth" but you are unable to convince others it is the truth and now you are going around insisting people to believe it which turned from "convincing" to "pestering".

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The reason people dont believe it because we are only human.
Human can seperate truth and lie.But sometimes they CAN'T.

---

That "WE" do include you too I guess. And that statement apply to you too. Personally, I can still seperate truth and lie from this little "TRUTH" of yours. Maybe sometimes we are blinded by the so called "TRUTH" we tell ourselves to believe in and neglected or condemn the other "TRUTH" that others people believed it.

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If my statement is PURE ASSUMPTION that mean Odine's statement is also PURE ASSUMPTION.

---

That "ASSUMPTION" is programmed by Square into Dr Odine. If that is an "ASSUMPTION" made by Square, then so be it. In other words, if Square made an "ASSUMPTION" that PuPu is actually the real hero, then he is.

Please let me show you the machine,Viator.

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Okay, so if your assumptions against the real storylines in the game are true then what did that change? Did your assumptions influence anything in the game? If that's the case then what kind are you referring to, and what will that change? Personally, everything what the game tells us are simple and plausible, let's just stick to that way, I guess.

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The change thing is Edea still a sorceress at the ending.
My assumptsion of course influence with the game.
My theory is just to close the flaws in the game.
My theory just to make the REAL STORY of the game perfect.

What the game tells us not fully plausible.
Alright I will say once again.

I already prove that Edea still a sorceress

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Actually Edea WAS talking of her own powers (the ones she didn't have that is), as evidenced by this line:

Edea: ......... In the meantime, something must be done to suppress my powers... (from Game Script at GameFAQs).

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Edea said "My power" at that time that means she is STILL a sorceress"

You can find more answer at post no 1,22 and 26.

Because of this plothole most people after beat the game believe that Edea is no longer a sorceress.But I already prove that Edea STILL a sorceress.

In the ending we see that Edea recieved Ultimecia's power that means Edea had TWO sorceresses powers inside her.
Edea gives Ultimecia's power to Rinoa not her sorceress power.
That means Edea is STILL a sorceress because she STILL have her power.
Rinoa became a sorceress because Ultimecia's power NOT Edea's power.
And because as I stated "of all sorceresesses Ultimecia is a special one.she has a motto "MY POWER IS MY LIFE".(Dont ask me why I know about it you just need to believe it)"
Because her power is her life that means she lives inside Rinoa when she went into coma.That's why she can control Rinoa.
Maybe this sounds farfetced but this is however the TRUTH.

---

The game said Edea is no longer a sorceress BUT I already PROVE that Edea is STILL a sorceress.
You see now,that is the flaw in the game but I already solved it.
Hope you understand now.

Quote:

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During the event when Adel is being defected, so that means someone (specifically Rinoa) has to be inherited from Adel's powers in order to die naturally (Adel). Correct? If that's the case, then visa versa. In that time, Rinoa finally has Adel powers but the confusing part is that when Rinoa has Adel's powers and Edea's powers and Ultimecia can posses her any time, well maybe that's not important but then does that mean that she can get as many powers from other sorceresses too? That part does look like that she's becoming more powerful because she has absorbed other sorceresses powers or something, it could be the reason that she became into the same position as Ultimecia with the related powers in the future? Know what I mean?

---

Rinoa never have Edea's power.I already explained it many times.
You should read my theory at least 3 times,or until you understand.

Quote:

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After Adel, Rinoa went into the place near Esther where she was being exorcized by the machine, I don't really know the purpose of that place (I didn't pay attention to that part in the game), then Squall came to rescue her by slashing the wires that were connected to Rinoa anyway. After that part, Rinoa seemed faintly but does she still have the powers (Adel and Edea's powers) or some powers inside her are gone? That's another confusing part too.

---

At that time (At Sorceress Memorial) Rinoa ONLY have Ultimecia's power NOT Edea's or Adel's

Here is another explaination

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

After Adel defeated she pass on her power to Rinoa.Then Ellone send Rinoa and Ultimecia to the past,Ultimecia start Time Compression and back to the future along with her power and then possess her own body in the future.HEEEYYY it would EXPLAIN another thing when we fight Ultimecia in Final Battle you can see there`s TWO ULTIMECIA.WOW never thought about it (I hope you can understand it in your way).So after Squall and co travel to the future,Rinoa ONLY have Adel`s power.

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Quote:

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About that JME thing, does it really matter if it has a limit or not? But as someone in this thread has stated that JME has a limitation (stating that Ellone can send you back to the past only if she knows you anyway) but that word "limitation" doesn't seem right to me, it's sort of like a principle to me because if she doesn't know you then she can't send you back, simple as that. In other words, almost everything have principles in order to success, right? But anyway, I don't know any outcomes from JME having a "limit", can you explain?

---

I only say JME never work.Ultimecia never use JME to possessed Edea or Rinoa.You can read the explaination at post no 1.
If you realized actually that limit thingy was poor excuse.

Quote:

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You sound like some religious leader desperately trying to recruit someone to be part of your religion.

---

Say what you want Christmas.I dont understand you.
Christmas you always have something to against me,why?
If I am like some religious leader that means you are some non religious leader.

Quote:

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You can find the answer at post no 1,22,26.


No.

---

What do you mean no?
There's the answer.

Quote:

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Like I said if it is the truth, there is no denying it whether it is a story or a song or a poem or a theory. The point here is that your theory here is not convincing enough for others to believe while you are the only one who think and believe it is convincing. In other words, it is your own personal belief that it is the "truth" but you are unable to convince others it is the truth and now you are going around insisting people to believe it which turned from "convincing" to "pestering".

---

Like I said "Believe in what you believe then,period.
Come on Christmas I am sure you understand about my theory
but you seem always to ignore my theory.
Stop talking about TRUTH Christmas,just tell me why you dont believe my theory.

Quote:

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That "WE" do include you too I guess. And that statement apply to you too. Personally, I can still seperate truth and lie from this little "TRUTH" of yours. Maybe sometimes we are blinded by the so called "TRUTH" we tell ourselves to believe in and neglected or condemn the other "TRUTH" that others people believed it.

---

The truth can be destroyed by lie.
THE TRUTH IS ALWAYS ONE.

Quote:

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That "ASSUMPTION" is programmed by Square into Dr Odine. If that is an "ASSUMPTION" made by Square, then so be it. In other words, if Square made an "ASSUMPTION" that PuPu is actually the real hero, then he is.

---

Say what you want!
Oh yeah actually PuPu is one of the hero.Remember PuPu gives Squall PuPu card.That PuPu card is very usefull.You can read the explaination at thread "Denying fate i dont think so"

Oh and one more thing I want to tell you.
Actually Ultimecia only need to go to the past to achieve TC NOT further into the past like Odine said.Because Ultimecia in the present all the time.(inside Edea and Rinoa).

But, you didn't prove a thing. You suggested a possibility that turned out to be useless, because it's simpler and doesn't contradict the game to say that Edea didn't /know/ she'd lost her powers. You're using faulty logic, here:

Quote:

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Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.

---

Yes, it seems weird, but this is erroneous. It doesn't necessarily mean that she still has them; it means she /believes/ she does. She could easily be wrong--especially since the game /says/ she later is. Yes, this could have been done better (like removing her ability to telekinetically punch in battle) but that can be explained away without saying that the game is wrong; if it's a flaw, you're correcting the part that doesn't need it.

Also, why would her presence in Edea and Rinoa mean Ultimecia didn't still have to go back further in time? That doesn't make any sense--we already knew that much, and it doesn't change game canon.

Quote:

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But, you didn't prove a thing. You suggested a possibility that turned out to be useless, because it's simpler and doesn't contradict the game to say that Edea didn't /know/ she'd lost her powers. You're using faulty logic, here:

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I already PROVE Edea is STILL a sorceress.
You should read Sir B explaination.

Quote:

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Actually Edea WAS talking of her own powers (the ones she didn't have that is), as evidenced by this line:

Edea: ......... In the meantime, something must be done to suppress my powers... (from Game Script at GameFAQs).

---

I will tell you one more time about Edea's power Qurange.

Quote:

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In the ending we see that Edea recieved Ultimecia's power that means Edea had TWO sorceresses powers inside her.
Edea gives Ultimecia's power to Rinoa not her sorceress power.
That means Edea is STILL a sorceress because she STILL have her power.
Rinoa became a sorceress because Ultimecia's power NOT Edea's power.

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You see when we fight Edea at Galbadia Garden,Edea had 2 sorceresses powers(Ultimecia's and her power).
Edea give Ultimecia's power to Rinoa NOT her sorceress power.
I hope you really understand now Qurange.

Quote:

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Also, why would her presence in Edea and Rinoa mean Ultimecia didn't still have to go back further in time? That doesn't make any sense--we already knew that much, and it doesn't change game canon.

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Because she already in the present (Squall's time).By possessing Edea and Rinoa.Remember her power is her life.
That means she only needs Ellone to send her in the past.
I hope you get it now

Quote:

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Say what you want Christmas.I dont understand you.
Christmas you always have something to against me,why?
If I am like some religious leader that means you are some non religious leader.

---

I am member 15004 of EOFF forums.

Quote:

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Like I said "Believe in what you believe then,period.
Come on Christmas I am sure you understand about my theory
but you seem always to ignore my theory.
Stop talking about TRUTH Christmas,just tell me why you dont believe my theory.

---

One simple question though:

Quote:

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In the ending we see that Edea recieved Ultimecia's power that means Edea had TWO sorceresses powers inside her.
Edea gives Ultimecia's power to Rinoa not her sorceress power.
That means Edea is STILL a sorceress because she STILL have her power.
Rinoa became a sorceress because Ultimecia's power NOT Edea's power.

---

Let's see, Ultimecia absorbed tons of sorceress' power before this and so she got a whole lot of package of sorceress' power divided in her? Sorceress A powers, Sorceress B powers...etc.

So when she die, which sorceress power did she pass to Edea? Hers or others. If hers, then what about the power of the other sorceress?

BTW, you do know that Ultimecia wanted to absorb all sorceress power from past, future and present into ONE. Which mean when she absorbed the powers of others, they will became one with hers.

So logically speaking, when Ultimecia pass her powers to Edea, her powers is merged with Edea's. The same applies to Rinoa.

Quote:

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The truth can be destroyed by lie.
THE TRUTH IS ALWAYS ONE.

---

It might not be the one you're preaching about though.

Quote:

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Say what you want!
Oh yeah actually PuPu is one of the hero.Remember PuPu gives Squall PuPu card.That PuPu card is very usefull.You can read the explaination at thread "Denying fate i dont think so"

---

SURE.

Quote:

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Oh and one more thing I want to tell you.
Actually Ultimecia only need to go to the past to achieve TC NOT further into the past like Odine said.Because Ultimecia in the present all the time.(inside Edea and Rinoa).

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So what Odine said are lies or something that is not worth believing it?

Quote:

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Let's see, Ultimecia absorbed tons of sorceress' power before this and so she got a whole lot of package of sorceress' power divided in her? Sorceress A powers, Sorceress B powers...etc.

So when she die, which sorceress power did she pass to Edea? Hers or others. If hers, then what about the power of the other sorceress?

---

Finally someone ask this question!
When Time decompression happen all of the things trying to get back into what they were supposed to be.And because all those sorceresses powers actually do not belong to Ultimecia that power will back to the sorceresses belongs to that powers.(get back to other sorceresses).
So Edea ONLY recieved Ultimecia's power.

Quote:

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BTW, you do know that Ultimecia wanted to absorb all sorceress power from past, future and present into ONE. Which mean when she absorbed the powers of others, they will became one with hers.

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Only the sorceress power will became one with her not sorceress.

Quote:

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So logically speaking, when Ultimecia pass her powers to Edea, her powers is merged with Edea's. The same applies to Rinoa.

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You guessed it.

Quote:

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It might not be the one you're preaching about though.

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Whatever.

Quote:

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So what Odine said are lies or something that is not worth believing it?

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If we can say Odine never lie he just doesnt know the truth.
That's why he only say what he knows

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Finally someone ask this question!
When Time decompression happen all of the things trying to get back into what they were supposed to be.And because other sorceress power actually do not belong to Ultimecia that power will back to the sorceress belongs to that power.(get back to other sorceress).
So Edea ONLY recieved Ultimecia's power.

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You do know that those sorceress that got absorbed have all been defeated by Squall and they might already be dead when they got absorbed to Ultimecia.

Also, what's the point of absorbing every sorceress powers when they are all split into different packages and not merged as one. If they are merged as one when Ultimecia absorbed them, then why can't Edea and Ultimecia's power merge as one when Edea got her powers.

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Only the sorceress power will became one with her not sorceress.

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I had no idea what you are talking about.

Quote:

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You guessed it.

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I talking about the power come in one full package and not half the package. So Edea stored her powers in one compartment and Ultimecia in other? So when she fight, which powers do she use?

Quote:

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If we can say Odine never lie he just doesnt know the truth.
That's why he only say what he knows

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What he knows is what Square said.

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You do know that those sorceress that got absorbed have all been defeated by Squall and they might already be dead when they got absorbed to Ultimecia.

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That those sorceresses Squall and Co defeated actually the Origin Sorceress.Maybe they dead at that time (when Squall kill them) but they still alive in their time.So when Time Decompression all those powers back to the Origin Sorceresses.Ultimecia ONLY absorbed sorceress' power from Origin Sorceress NOT sorceress.If Ultimecia absorbed all sorceresses powers that means Rinoa cannot be a Sorceress when TC happen (When TC happen all sorceress power;Origin sorceresses' powers get absorbed by Ultimecia)But Rinoa STILL a sorceress at that time.That means Ultimecia only absorbed the powers from Origin Sorceresses.
So when Ultimecia defeated, all those powers get away from Ultimecia and back to the owner.(Origin Sorceresses)
Ultimecia only absorbed Sorceress' power not Sorceress.

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Also, what's the point of absorbing every sorceress powers when they are all split into different packages and not merged as one. If they are merged as one when Ultimecia absorbed them, then why can't Edea and Ultimecia's power merge as one when Edea got her powers.

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They (sorceresses' power) will merged as one with Ultimecia when she absorbed all those powers.
Ultimecia still the most powerful sorceress even she doesnt have all those powers.
Ultimecia can ONLY merged as one with that sorceresses powers when TC happen.
TC is ended when Edea recieved Ultimecia's power.
So their powers cannot be merged as one

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BTW, you do know that Ultimecia wanted to absorb all sorceress power from past, future and present into ONE. Which mean when she absorbed the powers of others, "they" will became one with hers.

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"They" is sorceresses' powers not sorceress.

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So logically speaking, when Ultimecia pass her powers to Edea, her powers is merged with Edea's. The same applies to Rinoa.

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Sorry I misunderstand last time.
Their powers do not merged.
When Ultimecia possessed Edea she ONLY use her power not Edea's power.
When Ultimecia inside Edea their spirit fight each other.
And of course Ultimecia's spirit wins over Edea's spirit.
That's why she can possessed her.

Quote:

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I talking about the power come in one full package and not half the package. So Edea stored her powers in one compartment and Ultimecia in other? So when she fight, which powers do she use?

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Ultimecia only use her power not Edea's power.

Quote:

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What he knows is what Square said.

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What he knows at that time is not entirely the TRUTH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

The better explanation was fully developed by "TheOnionKnight" and can be found in the FAQ I co-wrote (which you claimed to have read).

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The theory by TheOnionKnight is plausible.
But there's something wrong in that theory.
He said Ultimecia possessed Edea and Rinoa by JME.
But I already explain and prove Ultimecia NOT possessed Edea and Rinoa with JME.
TheOnionKnight's theory is very solid BUT his theory is not entirely the truth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

That those sorceresses Squall and Co defeated actually the Origin Sorceress.Maybe they dead at that time (when Squall kill them) but they still alive in their time.So when Time Decompression all those powers back to the Origin Sorceresses.Ultimecia ONLY absorbed sorceress' power from Origin Sorceress NOT sorceress.

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You are saying like Squall only slain their spirit while their body is still intact in their own world. So if Squall and the rest got roasted by Ultimecia and a few moments later Laguna came along and kill Ultimecia, Squall and the others were be revived???

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If Ultimecia absorbed all sorceresses powers that means Rinoa cannot be a Sorceress when TC happen (When TC happen all sorceress power;Origin sorceresses' powers get absorbed by Ultimecia)But Rinoa STILL a sorceress at that time.That means Ultimecia only absorbed the powers from Origin Sorceresses.

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Time is set to stone in FF VIII and Ultimecia didn't really manage to absorb every single sorceress throughout time.

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So when Ultimecia defeated, all those powers get away from Ultimecia and back to the owner.(Origin Sorceresses)
Ultimecia only absorbed Sorceress' power not Sorceress.

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I don't get your Origin Sorceress stuff.

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They (sorceresses' power) will merged as one with Ultimecia when she absorbed all those powers.
Ultimecia still the most powerful sorceress even she doesnt have all those powers.
Ultimecia can ONLY merged as one with that sorceresses powers when TC happen.
TC is ended when Edea recieved Ultimecia's power.
So their powers cannot be merged as one

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After TC sorceress power cannot merge as one and before TC it can?
You said so?

BTW, when Rinoa receive Adel's power, is that a special code or trick to access Adel's power since Rinoa received Adel's power before TC.

Finally, here is a famous line from Seifer

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Seifer: Can't go back now! I can't go anywhere! The sorceresses as one!

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"They" is sorceresses' powers not sorceress.

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Why not cast scan on her during her final form?

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Sorry I misunderstand last time.
Their powers do not merged.
When Ultimecia possessed Edea she ONLY use her power not Edea's power.
When Ultimecia inside Edea their spirit fight each other.
And of course Ultimecia's spirit wins over Edea's spirit.
That's why she can possessed her.

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Why can't she use Edea's power since she had complete control over the body?

Also, before Ultimecia possess Edea, what power is Edea entitled? If only to her own power, then where is Ultimecia's power?

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What he knows at that time is not entirely the TRUTH.

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What you think and know at this current time is too not entirely the truth and Dr Odine's words hold more weights than yours since it is from Square.

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The theory by TheOnionKnight is plausible.
But there's something wrong in that theory.
He said Ultimecia possessed Edea and Rinoa by JME.
But I already explain and prove Ultimecia NOT possessed Edea and Rinoa with JME.
TheOnionKnight's theory is very solid BUT his theory is not entirely the truth.

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So is yours.

So bascially that when any sorceress are about to die, therefore someone else will get Ultimecia powers from that sorceress? Rinoa for example.

Ok, Edea is still a sorceress. Tell me why didn't Ultimecia posses her to seal Adel and release her, etc, instead of possessing Rinoa to do so? It doesn't make sense because Edea is capable of doing the same job as Rinoa, of course. Both of them are bright women with full powers, why only Rinoa that was being possessed by Ultimecia again?

Anyway, maybe because well, at least that's what I think:

Edea doesn't know that she's a still sorceress, so therefore Ultimecia can't posses her UNLESS Edea realised that she's still a sorceress because Ultimecia always depend (or rely) on sorceresses' feelings, satisfactions, etc. If you don't understand what I mean, try to understand this:

Edea (thinking she's not a sorceress) gives less chances of being posessed by Ultimecia to fulfil the future. Ultimecia can't control sorceresses if they don't think that way (relating sorceresses stuff). All equal not matching, that's why Edea never has been possessed by Ultimecia after that incident at the garden with Squall and Op.

Rinoa knew that she's becoming a sorceress and she acknowledged other sorceresses and Ultimecia quickly which gives more chances of being possessed by Ultimecia to fulfil the future because Ultimecia depend (or rely) on sorceresses' feelings, satisfactions, etc. There you go, that's why Ultimecia started possessing her. In meanwhile, she was thinking too much about this sorceress stuff, which gives more powers for Ultimecia to posses Rinoa to do so, then Ultimecia depend on Rinoa a lot since.. that's why Rinoa was being possessed to seal Adel. I guess. Ultimecia possessing + Any sorceress with related sorceresses feelings = Highly chances, so both of them will merge to fulfil. Rinoa and Ultimecia for example.

But then, maybe I'm wrong because Edea has nothing to do with Ultimecia in the future and so on, execpt Rinoa that's why Ultimecia doesn't need her right now. Which explains that Rinoa's kind of related to Ultimecia. I started believing R=U theory, honestly I just do and yes, I have just read SquallOfSeed's theory regarding R=U.

I think Ultimecia wanted to compress time because she didn't exactly get what she wants, that's why she started compressing everything to start all over again, so on and on. I don't know what Ultimecia really wants, well actually she did get what she want (by possessing someone to seal Adel) but maybe that wasn't enough, I mean there should be more than that explanation.

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You are saying like Squall only slain their spirit while their body is still intact in their own world. So if Squall and the rest got roasted by Ultimecia and a few moments later Laguna came along and kill Ultimecia, Squall and the others were be revived???

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You misunderstood my statement Christmas.
All that Origin sorceresses get absorbed in TC.And Squall and Co kill them in TC.Actually they doenst belong in TC,they belong to their own time.
They still alive in their own time.Their powers get back to them in their own time.(In their on time they still alive)
Like I said when Time decompression happen all of the things trying to get back into what they were supposed to be.And because all those sorceresses powers actually do not belong to Ultimecia that power will back to the sorceresses belongs to that powers.(get back to the other sorceresses).

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Time is set to stone in FF VIII and Ultimecia didn't really manage to absorb every single sorceress throughout time.

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She only absorbed The Origin Sorceress' power NOT sorceress' power.
She can absorbed because she already start TC.
In TC she can absorbed The Origin Sorceresses' power.

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I don't get your Origin Sorceress stuff.

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There's different between Origin Sorceress and Sorceress.
Origin Sorceress is the first kind of Sorceress Hyne created.
Sorceress is Human (female) have the power of Origin Sorceress power.
(i.e Ultimecia,Edea,Adel,Rinoa,etc.)

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After TC sorceress power cannot merge as one and before TC it can?
You said so?

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I hope you dont misunderstand with this "merged as one" stuff.
If you misunderstand its hard to tell the explanation to you.
I hope you read my post more than one.

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BTW, when Rinoa receive Adel's power, is that a special code or trick to access Adel's power since Rinoa received Adel's power before TC.

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Rinoa recieved Adel's power because Adel is defeated.
Same when Edea recieved Ultimecia's power.
TC had nothing to do with this "simple" thing.

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Finally, here is a famous line from Seifer


Seifer: Can't go back now! I can't go anywhere! The sorceresses as one!

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The meaning of that is:
It's like Odine said"
"Ultimecia(Rinoa) wants to possess Adel."
Adel junctioned with Ultimecia(Rinoa).
That means Adel have Ultimecia's power when junctioned with Rinoa.
Remember her power is her life.
At that time Ultimecia's spirit VS Adel's spirit.
When we fight Adel we dont know who is the one control Adel.
(Adel or Ultimecia).This is still mystery I guess, because Adel doesnt speak anything at that time.So you have to figured out on yourself the answer.

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Why can't she use Edea's power since she had complete control over the body?

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She ONLY control her body NOT her power.
Body and power are something different

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Also, before Ultimecia possess Edea, what power is Edea entitled? If only to her own power, then where is Ultimecia's power?

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Edea only had her own power before Ultimecia possessed her.
Ultimecia's power inside Ultimecia.
Hope you understand.

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What you think and know at this current time is too not entirely the truth and Dr Odine's words hold more weights than yours since it is from Square.

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Whatever.

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So bascially that when any sorceress are about to die, therefore someone else will get Ultimecia powers from that sorceress? Rinoa for example.

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I dont understand what are you talking about.

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Ok, Edea is still a sorceress. Tell me why didn't Ultimecia posses her to seal Adel and release her, etc, instead of possessing Rinoa to do so? It doesn't make sense because Edea is capable of doing the same job as Rinoa, of course. Both of them are bright women with full powers, why only Rinoa that was being possessed by Ultimecia again?

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In Galbadia Garden Edea defeated by Squall.And Ultimecia gives her power to Rinoa.As to why she chose Rinoa not Quistis or Selphie,dont ask me or anybody else you should ask Ultimecia for the answer.

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Edea doesn't know that she's a still sorceress, so therefore Ultimecia can't posses her UNLESS Edea realised that she's still a sorceress because Ultimecia always depend (or rely) on sorceresses' feelings, satisfactions, etc. If you don't understand what I mean, try to understand this:

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Edea knows that she is STILL a sorceress,like I said its only Square's intention to make us believe she is not a sorceress.
Ultimecia doesnt possess Edea again because Ultimecia gives her power to Rinoa.

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Edea (thinking she's not a sorceress) gives less chances of being posessed by Ultimecia to fulfil the future. Ultimecia can't control sorceresses if they don't think that way (relating sorceresses stuff). All equal not matching, that's why Edea never has been possessed by Ultimecia after that incident at the garden with Squall and Op.

Rinoa knew that she's becoming a sorceress and she acknowledged other sorceresses and Ultimecia quickly which gives more chances of being possessed by Ultimecia to fulfil the future because Ultimecia depend (or rely) on sorceresses' feelings, satisfactions, etc. There you go, that's why Ultimecia started possessing her. In meanwhile, she was thinking too much about this sorceress stuff, which gives more powers for Ultimecia to posses Rinoa to do so, then Ultimecia depend on Rinoa a lot since.. that's why Rinoa was being possessed to seal Adel. I guess. Ultimecia possessing + Any sorceress with related sorceresses feelings = Highly chances, so both of them will merge to fulfil. Rinoa and Ultimecia for example.

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You are wrong,just read my explainations above.

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But then, maybe I'm wrong because Edea has nothing to do with Ultimecia in the future and so on, execpt Rinoa that's why Ultimecia doesn't need her right now. Which explains that Rinoa's kind of related to Ultimecia. I started believing R=U theory, honestly I just do and yes, I have just read SquallOfSeed's theory regarding R=U.

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I suggest you not to read R=U theory too much because it will confused you.
Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia.It's simply because Rinoa is just Rinoa.
I suggest you to read my theory again.

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I think Ultimecia wanted to compress time because she didn't exactly get what she wants, that's why she started compressing everything to start all over again, so on and on. I don't know what Ultimecia really wants, well actually she did get what she want (by possessing someone to seal Adel) but maybe that wasn't enough, I mean there should be more than that explanation.

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Here is my answer:

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Originally Posted by Viator

I believe that Ultimecia knew about her fate,but that is NOT the REAL reason why she want to compress time.She must have another reason(fot example to become ruler of everything).BUT I believe beside these 2 reasons there must be REAL REASON why she wants to compress time.I think we will never know what the reason IS.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

So bascially that when any sorceress are about to die, therefore someone else will get Ultimecia powers from that sorceress? Rinoa for example.

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^

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Originally Posted by Viafor

I dont understand what are you talking about.

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You've said that Rinoa didn't recieve Edea powers when Edea was beaten at the Galbadia Garden, and you said Rinoa only recieved Ultimecia powers when Edea was being defeated (Ultimecia was possessing Rinoa)? Then why did Square state 'Sorceresses', instead of 'Ultimecia' to give the powers to someone else?

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Ok, so Edea is still a sorceress. Tell me why didn't Ultimecia posses her to seal Adel and release her, etc, instead of possessing Rinoa to do so? It doesn't make sense because Edea is capable of doing the same job as Rinoa, of course. Both of them are bright women with full powers, why only Rinoa that was being possessed by Ultimecia again?

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^

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Originally Posted by Viafor

In Galbadia Garden Edea defeated by Squall.And Ultimecia gives her power to Rinoa.As to why she chose Rinoa not Quistis or Selphie,dont ask me or anybody else you should ask Ultimecia for the answer.

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I'm asking you that question because its related to your theory. If you can answer my question, then you will prove your theory that everything in your theory will become more understandable and true.

Well, to answer your reply that I really think that Ultimecia chose Rinoa because Rinoa is very related to Ultimecia, otherwise answer my question to prove it.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Edea doesn't know that she's a still sorceress, so therefore Ultimecia can't posses her UNLESS Edea realised that she's still a sorceress because Ultimecia always depend (or rely) on sorceresses' feelings, satisfactions, etc. If you don't understand what I mean, try to understand this:

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^

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Originally Posted by Viafor

Edea knows that she is STILL a sorceress,like I said its only Square's intention to make us believe she is not a sorceress.
Ultimecia doesnt possess Edea again because Ultimecia gives her power to Rinoa.

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If you said Ultimecia can't posses Edea again then that MEANS Edea isn't a sorceress anymore

Ultimecia can possess any sorceresses again to rely on because they have potentials and they still have powers. Finally, Ultimecia can possess Edea again, even Rinoa during the Time Compression, etc.

After Adel is defeated, it would be pointless for Ultimecia to possess again because there's no job to do.


BUT, if Square lied. Then how come other FF games (NOT FF8) seem very very very very very clear to understand the whole stories, no matter if there were plots or flaws because the stories already covered them, so assuming they are telling the truths. Now you said Square has made a lie in FF8 only? That's very very very very very very weird!

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Originally Posted by Serapy

Edea (thinking she's not a sorceress) gives less chances of being posessed by Ultimecia to fulfil the future. Ultimecia can't control sorceresses if they don't think that way (relating sorceresses stuff). All equal not matching, that's why Edea never has been possessed by Ultimecia after that incident at the garden with Squall and Op.

Rinoa knew that she's becoming a sorceress and she acknowledged other sorceresses and Ultimecia quickly which gives more chances of being possessed by Ultimecia to fulfil the future because Ultimecia depend (or rely) on sorceresses' feelings, satisfactions, etc. There you go, that's why Ultimecia started possessing her. In meanwhile, she was thinking too much about this sorceress stuff, which gives more powers for Ultimecia to posses Rinoa to do so, then Ultimecia depend on Rinoa a lot since.. that's why Rinoa was being possessed to seal Adel. I guess. Ultimecia possessing + Any sorceress with related sorceresses feelings = Highly chances, so both of them will merge to fulfil. Rinoa and Ultimecia for example.

---

^

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Originally Posted by Viafor

You are wrong,just read my explainations above.

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That's just a theory, doesn't matter anyway.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

But then, maybe I'm wrong because Edea has nothing to do with Ultimecia in the future and so on, execpt Rinoa that's why Ultimecia doesn't need her right now. Which explains that Rinoa's kind of related to Ultimecia. I started believing R=U theory, honestly I just do and yes, I have just read SquallOfSeed's theory regarding R=U.

---

^

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Originally Posted by Viafor

I suggest you not to read R=U theory too much because it will confused you.
Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia.It's simply because Rinoa is just Rinoa.
I suggest you to read my theory again.

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Sorry, I already have read the R=U theory, and its way more plausible than your theory. I don't think I'm confused, but your theory is way confusing anyway. I'm surpised that you didn't answer my question regarding why Ultimecia chose Rinoa, sure Rinoa is just Rinoa. You should know that she has white and black feathers powers, white = good Rinoa and black = Ultimecia, which is the same concept of R being U, but really Rinoa is very very very related to Ultimecia, simple as that.

At least the R=U theory didn't mention that Square is lying, only your theory that thinks Square is lying (by persuading us to think that Edea isn't a sorceresses, etc).

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I think Ultimecia wanted to compress time because she didn't exactly get what she wants, that's why she started compressing everything to start all over again, so on and on. I don't know what Ultimecia really wants, well actually she did get what she want (by possessing someone to seal Adel) but maybe that wasn't enough, I mean there should be more than that explanation.

---

^

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Originally Posted by Viator

Here is my answer:

I believe that Ultimecia knew about her fate,but that is NOT the REAL reason why she want to compress time.She must have another reason(fot example to become ruler of everything).BUT I believe beside these 2 reasons there must be REAL REASON why she wants to compress time.I think we will never know what the reason IS.

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I think they are few reasons why she wants to compress times:

She was trying to collect more sorceresses powers, and start controlling them to do what she want. Unfortunately, Adel, Edea and Ultimecia are all defeated and Ultimecia didn't have enough sorceresses powers to increase the powers to become more powerful to rule the whole world, that's why she wanted to compress times.

Ultimecia needed Ellone to change the past, that's why Ultimecia tried to look for her by possessing sorceresses and control them to find Ellone or something. But Ultimecia didn't find her, that's why she wanted to compress times.

The real story is that SeeD members were trained to beat Ultimecia, and when Squall and his members went to fight Ultimecia. You see what Ultimecia said? She was pretty angry, she didn't expect that to happen. Having SeeDs trained to beat Ultimecia is a big problem for Ultimecia. That's why she wanted to compress times after the battle..Obviously, it's like a cycle..

Or.. Ultimecia's real story didn't happen, thats why she wanted to compress to match her real story. There should be more reasons as well.

Why should we care? Because Ultimecia is 100% gone after the end battle, everything goes back to normal.

Look, Serapy:

Viator's theory is no good because it rests on the assumption that what is really a tiny plot hole, is vital to the entire plot. That's it. The arguments you are brining up back and forth are really not necessary, because they rest on the foundation they do.

However, the R=U theory is not plausible either, because it reads far too much into the game, and simply isn't at all plausible.

Ultimecia's main motives were, rather, a mixture of a desire to become the new God (time compression would allow her to absorb all of time and space including all the sorceress powers, making her God) and a desire to conquer her recorded fate of dying at Squall's hand (remember her death happened in her past, so it would have been recorded). That's it.

A more complete analysis of the faults of R=U, and of the just mentioned theory on Ultimecia, refer to the FAQ probably mentioned already in this topic.

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Look, Serapy:

Viator's theory is no good because it rests on the assumption that what is really a tiny plot hole, is vital to the entire plot. That's it. The arguments you are brining up back and forth are really not necessary, because they rest on the foundation they do.

However, the R=U theory is not plausible either, because it reads far too much into the game, and simply isn't at all plausible.

Ultimecia's main motives were, rather, a mixture of a desire to become the new God (time compression would allow her to absorb all of time and space including all the sorceress powers, making her God) and a desire to conquer her recorded fate of dying at Squall's hand (remember her death happened in her past, so it would have been recorded). That's it.

A more complete analysis of the faults of R=U, and of the just mentioned theory on Ultimecia, refer to the FAQ probably mentioned already in this topic.

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Ok, I understood you, I think you are right but its weird because Rinoa and Ultimecia are kinda related to me, even before I got into reading about the R=U theory for the first time then after reading, I realised why I think that Rinoa and Ultimecia are related.

Well, R=U and are related in several ways, so that's only natural; they represent the good and bad sides a sorceress can turn to (hence Rinoa has white wings, Ultimecia has black; it's classic good vs evil). Also, they have the same sorceress powers, due to the timeloop.

However, their relation simply doesn't extend to the point where they are one and the same!

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Then why did Square state 'Sorceresses', instead of 'Ultimecia' to give the powers to someone else?

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Because 'Ultimecia' included in 'sorceresses'.
You have to know that Ultimecia's power = Ultimecia's life.

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If you said Ultimecia can't posses Edea again then that MEANS Edea isn't a sorceress anymore

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Edea is STILL a sorceress.Edea had 2 sorceresses powers inside her (Ultimecia's power and her power).And because ONLY Ultimecia's power that get inside Rinoa NOT Edea's power.That means Edea still have her power(Edea's power).So she is STILL a sorceress.

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Ultimecia can possess any sorceresses again to rely on because they have potentials and they still have powers. Finally, Ultimecia can possess Edea again, even Rinoa during the Time Compression, etc.

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During time compression she is inside her own body.

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BUT, if Square lied. Then how come other FF games (NOT FF8) seem very very very very very clear to understand the whole stories, no matter if there were plots or flaws because the stories already covered them, so assuming they are telling the truths. Now you said Square has made a lie in FF8 only? That's very very very very very very weird!

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Alright,first Square make Edea is no longer a sorceress as stated in the game.But I already PROVE Edea STILL a sorceress.
It's not like Square want to lie to us it's just:

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Originally Posted by Viator

JUST THINK ABOUT IT!
If Square make Edea still a sorceress that would destroy the plot because at that time we would asking how Rinoa become a sorceress.
If Square make Edea is no longer a sorceress that would make a flaw, maybe some people wont notice this flaw.The flaw isthis:
Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?
She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she still have her sorceress power and she knows that she is STILL a sorceress.
That's why it would better to make Edea is no longer a sorceress because most people wont notice this flaw.

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Originally Posted by Viator

Actually Square should make Edea still a sorceress but they didnt.
Even they make Edea STILL a sorceress they wont destroy the plot.(storyline).
IF they make Edea still a sorceress it would destroy the surprise we'll find later.The surprise is at the ending.

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Originally Posted by Viator

Maybe Square realised this mistake,but they just leave it because that's just the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Serapy

I'm surpised that you didn't answer my question regarding why Ultimecia chose Rinoa

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I already answered that Question.

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Originally Posted by Viator

As to why she chose Rinoa not Quistis or Selphie,dont ask me or anybody else you should ask Ultimecia for the answer.

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Nobody can answer that question EXCEPT Ultimecia because she is the one who chose Rinoa not US.

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At least the R=U theory didn't mention that Square is lying, only your theory that thinks Square is lying (by persuading us to think that Edea isn't a sorceresses, etc).

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Well I already PROVE Edea is STILL a sorceress.
You like R=U theory because you believe R=U.
Correct me if I am wrong.

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Viator's theory is no good because it rests on the assumption that what is really a tiny plot hole, is vital to the entire plot. That's it.

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You said my theory is no good because you already have your own perspective about FF8,no?
I already said that plothole can destroy the real story line.
My theory here is to close that plothole to make story line PERFECT.
You dont argue with me again because you dont know what to say anymore.
If you have something to said just said it.

Actually, the choice of Rinoa has a clear canon reason--the capacity for Sorceress power is basically determined by innate magical potential. If we dip into stats, then that's 'magic' stat. Rinoa had the most potential--Rinoa got the powers, unless one of the others were specifically chosen.

The problem is that you haven't /proven/ anything, though. What you're using isn't proof; it's bad reasoning. it's saying 'look here's a flaw that I just made up! Now believe me!'

Viafor, that's what I meant. Lies and mistakes are the same anyway, so now you said FF8 has a mistake, then how come other FF8 games have no mistakes? I realised because you made an assumption with that mistake which is no good then...

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Originally Posted by Viafor

I already answered that Question.

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No you didn't.

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Originally Posted by Viafor

As to why she chose Rinoa not Quistis or Selphie,dont ask me or anybody else you should ask Ultimecia for the answer.

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Answer that question, but you know what? You are a bit too late because Qurange already answered the question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viafor

Well I already PROVE Edea is STILL a sorceress.
You like R=U theory because you believe R=U.
Correct me if I am wrong.

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Before I knew about the R=U theroy, I got this feeling that Ultimecia and Rinoa are kind of related to each other, then when I read the theory.. I figured out why I got the feeling. Of course, I'm not saying I 100% believe the R=U theory.

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You dont argue with me again because you dont know what to say anymore.

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You're absolutely right. I made all my relevant points already, but as you haven't taken any real consideration of them wht bother?

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No you didn't.

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That means you dont understand what am I talking about.
Actually most of your questions is not necessary.
You just need to read all my posts.

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As to why she chose Rinoa not Quistis or Selphie,dont ask me or anybody else you should ask Ultimecia for the answer.


Answer that question, but you know what? You are a bit too late because Qurange already answered the question.

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I think nobody can answer that question except Ultimecia.

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You're absolutely right. I made all my relevant points already, but as you haven't taken any real consideration of them wht bother?

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Why should I considering your meaningless point.

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The problem is that you haven't /proven/ anything, though. What you're using isn't proof; it's bad reasoning. it's saying 'look here's a flaw that I just made up! Now believe me!'

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Come on,I already prove many times that Edea STILL a sorceress.
If you dont get it,that's your problem.

I'll be sure to tell the established rules of argument and debate that they're wrong, then, Viator. Have fun with your theory.

Since this is already a freaking new page, I think I will start looking at your preaching from this new page filled with TRUTH.

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Originally Posted by Viator

Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?

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NO.

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She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she THINK she still have her sorceress power and she knows THINK that she is STILL a sorceress.

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Nobody can answer that question EXCEPT Ultimecia because she is the one who chose Rinoa not US.

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INDEED, INDEED. SQUARE IS THE ONE THAT INTEND THE GAME THE WAY IT IS NOT YOUR TRUTH.

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Well I already PROVE Edea is STILL a sorceress.
You like R=U theory because you believe R=U.
Correct me if I am wrong.

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Same applies to you.

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You said my theory is no good because you already have your own perspective about FF8,no?

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So is you.

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I already said that plothole can destroy the real story line.

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You see that thing as a plothole that can destroy the real story line while I dun.

Quote:

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My theory here is to close that plothole to make story line PERFECT.

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NOTHING IS PERFECT, NOT YOUR TRUTH NOR THE GAME.

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Originally Posted by First page of this TRUTH

Let`s just say of all sorceresesses

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See, a spelling mistake. Your theory isn't perfect. How can something imperfect produce a perfect product?

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You dont argue with me again because you dont know what to say anymore.
If you have something to said just said it.

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Sure, same applies to you. Let's see what you usually reply when I shower you with my reasoning filled with love and care:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Whatever.

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There must be almost 73843294032th times of this. See, I can count very well.

Quote:

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Come on,I already prove many times that Edea STILL a sorceress.
If you dont get it,that's your problem.

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Oh...how rude. Let me rephrase this.

Come on, your theory isn't convincing enough and doesn't have any solid proof except reasoning from you yourself which you believe its the truth. (But seriously, you cannot tell the differences between "belief" and "truth". I read the other thread "The Truth about Seifer")

If you don't get it, that's your problem and dun make your problem our problem.

Quote:

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I'll be sure to tell the established rules of argument and debate that they're wrong, then, Viator. Have fun with your theory.

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You see,I already said before you people often to say:
"I dont believe your theory bye bye."
So far I already explain and prove many things.
And I already answer many questions with good answer.
And you people just ignore my answers.
And start give poor excuses to destroy my theory.
At least give me a question just Christmas did.

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Doesnt that weird that Edea doesnt know her power has gone?


NO.

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Why you just said NO.
Why dont you give the explanation.

Quote:

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INDEED, INDEED. SQUARE IS THE ONE THAT INTEND THE GAME THE WAY IT IS NOT YOUR TRUTH.

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Whatever Christmas,have it your way.
Christmas, it just weird you suddenly changed like this.(Maybe not)
I think the last time I answer your questions.
And after I answer your questions,you suddenly turned out like this,why?

Quote:

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So is you.

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Whatever.

Quote:

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Well I already PROVE Edea is STILL a sorceress.
Same applies to you.

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I already PROVE Edea STILL a sorceress,and you dont believe it that's weird doesnt it?At least tell me why you dont believe it.(I already answer your good questions many times.)

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She said she need to see Odine to remove her power, doesnt that mean she knows that she THINK she still have her sorceress power and she knows THINK that she is STILL a sorceress.

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You have to read Sir B explanation then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut

Actually Edea WAS talking of her own powers (the ones she didn't have that is), as evidenced by this line:

Edea: ......... In the meantime, something must be done to suppress my powers... (from Game Script at GameFAQs).

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Edea said "My power" that means she is STILL a sorceress"

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Edea mean that she is still a sorceress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Christmas

You see that thing as a plothole that can destroy the real story line while I dun.

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If you dun,that means you have no idea what you are talking about.
The game said Edea is no longer a sorceress after the ending BUT I already prove that Edea isSTILL a sorceress.That means after the ending Edea STILL a sorceress.And you still cant see it?That's wierd.

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NOTHING IS PERFECT, NOT YOUR TRUTH NOR THE GAME.

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Whatever.

Quote:

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See, a spelling mistake. Your theory isn't perfect. How can something imperfect produce a perfect product?

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It doesnt matter as long people can understand what I am talking about.

Quote:

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Sure, same applies to you. Let's see what you usually reply when I shower you with my reasoning filled with love and care: Whatever.

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I dont see love and care at all,NOT for me.
Anyway,what's wrong if I say "whatever"

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There must be almost 73843294032th times of this. See, I can count very well.

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Really...

Quote:

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If you don't get it

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You people is the one who dont get it.

Quote:

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that's your problem and dun make your problem our problem.

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Then what the use of this forum?

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Come on, your theory isn't convincing enough and doesn't have any solid proof except reasoning from you yourself which you believe its the truth.

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NO.
That only mean one thing:
You dont understand my theory.You always ignore my theory and make poor excuses to destroy my theory.THAT'S ALL.

Quote:

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(But seriously, you cannot tell the differences between "belief" and "truth". I read the other thread "The Truth about Seifer")

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I dont really care the differences between "belief" and "truth".
If that bother you,I dont care it's none of my business.
And please dont speak the truth to me again because your truth is not what I am looking for.


Christmas as far as I can see you only give your POOR EXCUSES to destroy my theory.Even you ever ask good questions.

Well I've really enjoyed laughing at this. Believe it or not I'm not going to argue either. I'm just going to quote someone from another thread that sounded very wise to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reddragon

What the storyteller think of is the answer

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...and as far as I'm concerned that answers everything. :D

(Am I the only one who thinks it's hilarious when someone tells the author what they meant?)

A tip, Viator: Simply quoting yourself and insisting it is so does not make it so. Repitition does not make someone true.

Your new story is non-parsimonious, and based around a 'plot-hole' that is easily explained into nothingness by some in character ignorance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

Christmas as far as I can see you only give your POOR EXCUSES to destroy my theory.Even you ever ask good questions.

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Quote:

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Your new story is non-parsimonious, and based around a 'plot-hole' that is easily explained into nothingness by some in character ignorance.

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Quote:

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The problem is that you haven't /proven/ anything, though. What you're using isn't proof; it's bad reasoning. it's saying 'look here's a flaw that I just made up! Now believe me!'

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That really depend on what made up the theory and nothing can destroy the truth if it really is.

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Anyway,what's wrong if I say "whatever"

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Quote:

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You dont argue with me again because you dont know what to say anymore.
If you have something to said just said it.

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You should really stop acting like you are high up above and had "win" over all of us with your theory of truth.

If you are really so good, you cannot even handle what you claimed to be "poor excuses"?

Lastly, people will believe in your theory if its convince them,if it doesn't, endless amount of preaching won't do.

Quote:

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What the storyteller think of is the answer


...and as far as I'm concerned that answers everything.

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NO,that only answer your stupidity.

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A tip, Viator: Simply quoting yourself and insisting it is so does not make it so. Repitition does not make someone true.

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You are wrong.
You maybe good at words but not good at understanding.

Quote:

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Your "new story" is non-parsimonious.

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You said that because you dont understand my "new story".

Quote:

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and based around a 'plot-hole' that is easily explained into nothingness by some in character ignorance.

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It maybe nothingness to you but not to the story line.

Quote:

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That really depend on what made up the theory and nothing can destroy the truth if it really is.

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You are right nobody can destroy my theory (Truth).

Quote:

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You should really stop acting like you are high up above and had "win" over all of us with "your theory of truth".

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Wow that is the first time you said "my theory of the truth".
But anyway,whatever you say Christmas

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If you are really so good, you cannot even handle what you claimed to be "poor excuses"?

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I dont want to argue with your POOR EXCUSES because it's useless.
If I argue with your POOR EXCUSES we are not talking about my theory again we are talking something unnessecary.

Quote:

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Lastly, people will believe in your theory if its convince them,if it doesn't, endless amount of preaching won't do.

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You think people are all the same.
People believe or dont believe it all comes down to circumtances.
People will believe my theory if they understand my theory.
And as far as I can see you still ignore my theory and keep talking about your POOR EXCUSES.

You dont even ANSWER any question from my previous post.

You see now Christmas, you go around again with your POOR EXCUSES.(Please stop that)

To be nice why dont we stop talking about these POOR EXCUSES.Why dont you ask question like the last time and I answer it.
Know what,I really like your questions.

Ahh. Another thread for FFVIII full of wacky theories! Yay!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Me

A tip, Viator: Simply quoting yourself and insisting it is so does not make it so. Repitition does not make someone true.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

You are wrong.
You maybe good at words but not good at understanding.

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So, I am somehow wrong in stating the true statement that repitition of an idea is not indicative of its validity?

Good child, you fail most utterly at this juncture. Additionally, tis you, not I, who are in remedial comprehension classes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Me

Your "new story" is non-parsimonious.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viapoo

You said that because you dont understand my "new story".

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No, I understand your story perfectly. It adds additional, unnecessary elements to the story, disregards existing elements, and what's more, invokes a no limits fallacy in order to disregard one said element. It is also based ENTIRELY off the ultra specific interpretation of two quotes when nothing in context suggests either is intended as you interpret them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Me

and based around a 'plot-hole' that is easily explained into nothingness by some in character ignorance.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crazyboy

It maybe nothingness to you but not to the story line.

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It is nothingness TO the storyline you ignorant dolt.

How's about this. YOU actually PROVE that Edea is still a sorceress after your battle, instead of using Paramagic like Seifer does in his limit break, instead of just insisting that you've already proved it. And stop using the same quote over and over, it doesn't PROVE she's a sorceress, any more than Tarkin's "nothing can stop us now" or Gunray's "Nothing can get through our shields" proves anything either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vialicious

You are right nobody can destroy my theory (Truth).

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Your theory and truth are two wholly separate things.

And By The By, it's not Christmas offering the poor excuses here.

The burden of proof isn't on US to disprove you. The burden is on you, to prove, to us, the skeptics, that your alternate take is the truth. You cannot do so by simply stating that your idea is the truth and refusing to support it beyond two overly specific quote interpretations and a couple of of goddamned logical fallacies.

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So, I am somehow wrong in stating the true statement that repitition of an idea is not indicative of its validity?

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It depends on circumtances.

Quote:

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No, I understand your story perfectly.

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If you still dont believe that Edea is STILL a sorceress never say that you understand my theory.

Quote:

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It adds additional, unnecessary elements to the story,

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If you say unnecessary you better shut up from now on.

Quote:

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It is nothingness TO the storyline you ignorant dolt.

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That means you are idiot.

Quote:

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And stop using the same quote over and over, it doesn't PROVE she's a sorceress,

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Like I said just SHUT UP if you dont understand.

Quote:

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Your theory and truth are two wholly separate things.

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My theory and truth are the same thing because
My theory = Truth

Quote:

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And By The By, it's not Christmas offering the poor excuses here.

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Like I said if you dont understand JUST shut up and just watch.

Quote:

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The burden of proof isn't on US to disprove you.

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Why you people alwasy say "WE" / "US" why dont you use "I" / "ME"

Quote:

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The burden is on you, to prove, to us

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I have proven.And you still keep talking like this,that means you dont understand.

Quote:

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that your alternate take is the truth

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It is.

Quote:

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You cannot do so by simply stating that your idea is the truth and refusing to support it beyond two overly specific quote interpretations and a couple of of goddamned logical fallacies.

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I think that support already enough to prove my theory is the truth.

IF square is the one make this theory you will believe it right away,why?
Because you dont understand the Truth.
You dont believe me because I,Viator the one who make this theory,why?
Because You are too stupid to realized the truth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

It depends on circumtances.

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It NEVER depends on the circumstances. Repitition of an idea does not make that idea any more valid. An idea must be sound or unsound on its own merits

Quote:

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If you still dont believe that Edea is STILL a sorceress never say that you understand my theory.

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No, I understand it fully. I also understand it's complete and utter BUNK. You're using the same tactics as the evangelicals. Stop proselytizing.

Quote:

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If you say unnecessary you better shut up from now on.

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...Squbba? Would redundant be better, then? The point is, your version of events requires so many unsupported claims it's ridiculuous. It is the antithesis of a parsimonious theory.

Quote:

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That means you are idiot.

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Please note that there is a difference between insulting someone, and making that insult your entire argument. You are committing the latter, and that, good sir, is an Ad Hominem.
And just to satisfy my curiosity, how does the 'plot hole' being absolutely nothing to the overall story make me an idiot? The leaps in logic involved should be incredibly entertaining.

Quote:

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Like I said just SHUT UP if you dont understand.

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Right back atcha, with a 'maybe you should learn to explain things better, ole chap' chaser.

Quote:

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My theory and truth are the same thing because
My theory = Truth

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The above quote= Lie.

Quote:

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Like I said if you dont understand JUST shut up and just watch.

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Please stop accusing me of a lack of comprehension. I've been so good as to avoid accusing you of a shortage of gray matter.

Quote:

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Why you people alwasy say "WE" / "US" why dont you use "I" / "ME"

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I do not speak only for myself, chum monkey. I speak for everyone you seek to snooker.

Quote:

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I have proven.And you still keep talking like this,that means you dont understand.

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You have not proven. AT ALL.

Quote:

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It is.

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::Insert a ten minute break for uproarious, side splitting laughter::
Ah..... comedy gold.

Quote:

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I think that support already enough to prove my theory is the truth.

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You think wrong, child.

Quote:

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IF square is the one make this theory you will believe it right away,why?
Because you dont understand the Truth.
You dont believe me because I,Viator the one who make this theory,why?
Because You are too stupid to realized the truth.

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No, ass monkey. If Square said it, it would be law, since Square is in a position of authority over their own product, similar to how Lucas is in charge of Star Wars, and his word is law. You, my obstinant, obdurate little ferret, have no such authority, your 'truth' is a laughable conspiracy theory based on a dialogue uber alles fallacy, and your general behaviour definitely shows that you've got nothing substantial to offer, and that the only thing you've got going for yourself is your tenacity.

By the By, your poor spelling and grammar, not helping your case any.

You STILL dont SHUT UP?
That means I will just ignore you.
Au revoir.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viator

It depends on circumtances.

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It NEVER depends on the circumstances. Repitition of an idea does not make that idea any more valid. An idea must be sound or unsound on its own merits

Quote:

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If you still dont believe that Edea is STILL a sorceress never say that you understand my theory.

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No, I understand it fully. I also understand it's complete and utter BUNK. You're using the same tactics as the evangelicals. Stop proselytizing.

Quote:

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If you say unnecessary you better shut up from now on.

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...Squbba? Would redundant be better, then? The point is, your version of events requires so many unsupported claims it's ridiculuous. It is the antithesis of a parsimonious theory.

Quote:

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That means you are idiot.

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Please note that there is a difference between insulting someone, and making that insult your entire argument. You are committing the latter, and that, good sir, is an Ad Hominem.
And just to satisfy my curiosity, how does the 'plot hole' being absolutely nothing to the overall story make me an idiot? The leaps in logic involved should be incredibly entertaining.

Quote:

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Like I said just SHUT UP if you dont understand.

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Right back atcha, with a 'maybe you should learn to explain things better, ole chap' chaser.

Quote:

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My theory and truth are the same thing because
My theory = Truth

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The above quote= Lie.

Quote:

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Like I said if you dont understand JUST shut up and just watch.

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Please stop accusing me of a lack of comprehension. I've been so good as to avoid accusing you of a shortage of gray matter.

Quote:

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Why you people alwasy say "WE" / "US" why dont you use "I" / "ME"

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I do not speak only for myself, chum monkey. I speak for everyone you seek to snooker.

Quote:

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I have proven.And you still keep talking like this,that means you dont understand.

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You have not proven. AT ALL.

Quote:

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It is.

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::Insert a ten minute break for uproarious, side splitting laughter::
Ah..... comedy gold.

Quote:

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I think that support already enough to prove my theory is the truth.

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You think wrong, child.

Quote:

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IF square is the one make this theory you will believe it right away,why?
Because you dont understand the Truth.
You dont believe me because I,Viator the one who make this theory,why?
Because You are too stupid to realized the truth.

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No, ass monkey. If Square said it, it would be law, since Square is in a position of authority over their own product, similar to how Lucas is in charge of Star Wars, and his word is law. You, my obstinant, obdurate little ferret, have no such authority, your 'truth' is a laughable conspiracy theory based on a dialogue uber alles fallacy, and your general behaviour definitely shows that you've got nothing substantial to offer, and that the only thing you've got going for yourself is your tenacity.

By the By, your poor spelling and grammar, not helping your case any.

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Hey man, where the smurf do you get off calling someone an "ass monkey" or a "child"? You entire argument is almost as devoid of logic as Viator's is. I am warning your post, just like you should have warned Viator's post when he called you an idiot instead of continuing to insult one another through name-calling.

-LYCHON

This thread has gone far enough.

Viator and Ryushikaze, making personal attacks simply because someone doesn't agree with your posts is unacceptable. Don't do it again.

And I'd like to remind everyone in this thread to be a bit more respectful and not pick at each other's posts the way you guys have been doing.