Something I recently noticed about Clouds geostigma

Okay, Im pretty much a hater of the film, I thought it sucked and was terrible, and see my posts in the pinned thread "Thoughts on AC" as to why, lets not get into that here. But I just recently noticed something that also doesn't seem to make much sense, at least less sense then the film tends not to make. So I thought I would see if I'm missing something important to the story, or did the scriptwriter just really have a bad day when he penned this script.

Okay, so here are the facts. Cloud is a genetically bio-engineered soldier who used to be pathetically weak, but due to the infusion of genova genetic materials and Mako energy, he is super powerful right?

More facts. Geostigma is a particularly lame ailment that is supposedly fatal that if from the planet, afflicting those who are carriers of Jenova's genetic material right?

alright, here's my question. So if Aerieth helps cure the geostigma by wiping out all jenova cells in a persons body with the water from the church, if cloud no longer has any Jenova material stengthening him, why is he so much stronger AFTER the Jenova cells are gone? I understand the Mako energy would still make him stronger then the average person, but the thing with cloud was that it was the Jenova cells working along side the mako energy making him as strong as he was. Without the Jenova cells, what sense does it make for him to be even stronger?

So did I miss something in this analysis? any thoughts or feedback?

Cloud is still enhanced through Mako showering. And if you watch the final scene, when Sephiroth is just about to finish Cloud, you'll quite clearly see and understand where Cloud drew his final strength from.

Not to mention, Sephiroth wasn't even at full strength...

Maybe he just trains alot, he does kill about 200 monsters in a day

Cloud is already very strong even without any enhancement. Notice in FF VII where they show the flashback of the Nibel incident where Cloud threw Sephiroth into the chasm despite being stabbed by him.

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Sephiroth plunges his sword into Cloud’s right chest.

Sephiroth: Don't... push... your luck...

Cloud pulls out Sephiroth sword from his wound and throws him into the chasm.

Sephiroth: ...It can't be!

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Originally Posted by Christmas

Cloud is already very strong even without any enhancement. Notice in FF VII where they show the flashback of the Nibel incident where Cloud threw Sephiroth into the chasm despite being stabbed by him.

Quote:

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Sephiroth plunges his sword into Cloud’s right chest.

Sephiroth: Don't... push... your luck...

Cloud pulls out Sephiroth sword from his wound and throws him into the chasm.

Sephiroth: ...It can't be!

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Clouds sudden burst of strength can most likely be attributed to a sudden surge of adrenaline, not uncommon to those in extreme, life threatening situations, coupled with a healthy dose of plot contrivance. I mean he wasn't even strong enough to rate anything more then a "rent-a-cop" class soldier, yet he can defeat sephiroth? I never liked that plot twist due to just HOW contrived it really is. even with the adrenaline factor.

And also note that the question was, why is he stronger AFTER the jenova cells are gone? On a technical level he should have been weaker due to the fact he has lost some of his super-soldier genetics.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

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Originally Posted by Christmas

Cloud is already very strong even without any enhancement. Notice in FF VII where they show the flashback of the Nibel incident where Cloud threw Sephiroth into the chasm despite being stabbed by him.

Quote:

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Sephiroth plunges his sword into Cloud’s right chest.

Sephiroth: Don't... push... your luck...

Cloud pulls out Sephiroth sword from his wound and throws him into the chasm.

Sephiroth: ...It can't be!

---

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Clouds sudden burst of strength can most likely be attributed to a sudden surge of adrenaline, not uncommon to those in extreme, life threatening situations, coupled with a healthy dose of plot contrivance. I mean he wasn't even strong enough to rate anything more then a "rent-a-cop" class soldier, yet he can defeat sephiroth? I never liked that plot twist due to just HOW contrived it really is. even with the adrenaline factor.

And also note that the question was, why is he stronger AFTER the jenova cells are gone? On a technical level he should have been weaker due to the fact he has lost some of his super-soldier genetics.

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Someone who is 'technically stronger' on the scorecard, doesn't always win the match. Such is life, circumstances, and situations. Plot contrivance my foot.

The Jenova cells have little to do with Cloud being superhuman. He was rejected from SOLDIER because he was mentally weak (thus unable to withstand Mako showering), not physically weak (Before Crisis has a couple scenes where he, as a grunt, grabs a buster sword off a dead unit and begins to own with it. This is well before Nibleheim).

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

So if Aerieth helps cure the geostigma by wiping out all jenova cells in a persons body with the water from the church, if cloud no longer has any Jenova material stengthening him, why is he so much stronger AFTER the Jenova cells are gone?

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If you were dying and believed that you couldn't help anyone and then you not only changed your mind but became perfectly healthy wouldn't you be stronger as well?

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

The Jenova cells have little to do with Cloud being superhuman. He was rejected from SOLDIER because he was mentally weak (thus unable to withstand Mako showering), not physically weak (Before Crisis has a couple scenes where he, as a grunt, grabs a buster sword off a dead unit and begins to own with it. This is well before Nibleheim).

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The Jenova cells would have definitely made him stronger, and he should have been physically weaker. Mental strength can only call upon the various resources the human body has to offer. So If cloud is struggling against the jenova spawns when he had the jenova cells, shouldn't the absence of any jenova cells in his being have made him physically weaker?

It's still a wank film. cloud gets stabbed in his sword arm and busts out his ultimate attack. Cloud gets shot in the head but is saved by his stylish shades. Cloud gets depressed and resolves his serious issues in five seconds. But this just strikes me that the script writer spent even less time working on plot coherency.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

So If cloud is struggling against the jenova spawns when he had the jenova cells, shouldn't the absence of any jenova cells in his being have made him physically weaker?

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The Jenova Cells in Cloud's body were what was causing the illness, making him weak, and slowly killing him as his own body tries in vein to fight it off. With his body rid of the Jenova Cells, he is no longer ill, and regains his strength.

So no, the absense made him stronger, not weaker.

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cloud gets stabbed in his sword arm and busts out his ultimate attack

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Well obviouly he took a beating raising his Limit Break so that he could use his ultimate attack.

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Originally Posted by Amaru

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

So If cloud is struggling against the jenova spawns when he had the jenova cells, shouldn't the absence of any jenova cells in his being have made him physically weaker?

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The Jenova Cells in Cloud's body were what was causing the illness, making him weak, and slowly killing him as his own body tries in vein to fight it off. With his body rid of the Jenova Cells, he is no longer ill, and regains his strength.

So no, the absense made him stronger, not weaker.

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Actally, it was the planet seeking to wipe out all of Jenova's genetic remnants that was causing geostigma, as you see in the game and movie, it was Jenova's genetic legacy that gave him his improved strength and allowed him to be physically as powerful as Sephiroth.

Nice try though

And blackmage Nuke, I just assume you were trying to be funny. :D

Hmm...But Jenova or the Planet isn't causing the disease. Vincent says Geostigma is caused because the body has a personal current "like the lifestream" that fights off "intruders". So the body think it's helping you but is over-compensating and hurting you instead... So Aeris would just need to re-work his body's immune system so it didn't suck anymore, then heal the damage already done, not necessarily get rid of the cells themselves. Aeris's sexy allows her to do such things.

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Originally Posted by LunarWeaver

Hmm...But Jenova or the Planet isn't causing the disease. Vincent says Geostigma is caused because the body has a personal current "like the lifestream" that fights off "intruders". So the body think it's helping you but is over-compensating and hurting you instead... So Aeris would just need to re-work his body's immune system so it didn't suck anymore, then heal the damage already done, not necessarily get rid of the cells themselves. Aeris's sexy allows her to do such things.

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Nope, note how the rain was burning Kadaj as well as Loz and Yazoo, the rain was killing off all Jenova cells. Which is why clouds geostigma was cured by the water, because the Jenova cells were eliminated from his system. Thus, he really should have been physically weaker by a considerable margin.

Also, I was under the impression the lifestream was acting through the portion that is inside the human body to eliminate all Jenova cells, the Term "Geostigma" would further this. This is also furthered by Aeries using her "Great Gospel" ability to wipe out the Jenova Cells. Even though it's pretty stupid having a dead girl save the day multiple times, but I digress.

It doesn't say anywhere that Aeris destroys the cells in his body. Vincent clearly says the body's immune system is the cause of Geostigma, he even says "The body over-compensates", straight up quote...It has nothing to do with the lifestream or Jenova at all, so nothing indicates she gets rid of Jenova's cells in anybody.

The remnants might burn because they are a sign of "ebil" and Aeris is a sign of "goodz".Final Fantasy is 80% symbols, which works out for everybody because if you hate it, you can find everything wrong with it, and if you like you can find everything right with it. Or they might react badly to Aeris's power because she isn't trying to help them. If Aeris can whip out the entire lifestream and stop a gigantic meteor summoned by a black magical marble, one would think she is capable of choosing to burn cells or make the body accept them.

Does she destroy his cells? I don't know. But you don't know either. It doesn't say one or way another that's the way the magical healing water cures everybody. For all we know, Geostigma's cure is as simple as tricking your white cells into thinking it needs Jenova's cells instead of destroying them, or the cure could be rubbing your ass 4 times and saying "Giraffe", because the disease isn't real.

The rain was not burning them off, nor did they have any jenova cells.

1- The rain did nothing to Kadaj. He was struck by numerous drops, to no effect. He faded because he, a shinentai, wanted to pass (Exactly like an unsent from FF10/-2). Loz and Yazoo did not want to leave but could not maintain themselves, and so fought to stay intact as long as possible

2- With Jenova cells comes reunion instinct- the ability to home in on other pieces of Jenova. The triplets did not have this instinct, and as mentioned, are Sephiroth's Shinentai, IE, will/ spirit energy made form. Their very lack of this homing capability was what led them to kidnap the children, so their reunion instinct could lead them to Jenova's remains.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Actally, it was the planet seeking to wipe out all of Jenova's genetic remnants that was causing geostigma, as you see in the game and movie, it was Jenova's genetic legacy that gave him his improved strength and allowed him to be physically as powerful as Sephiroth.

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Er ... no.

In every person is a flow, like the Lifestream. When Jenova was defeated within the core of the Planet, her cells were spread out, and she became nothing more than a virus. This virus attacks people's immune systems, however, though everyone's immune system begsin to fight it off, it has an unexpected effect and completely goes over the top and overcompensates. This causes the illness known as Geostigma, an illness that slowly kills the host.

You keep saying that it was only the Jenova Cells which made Cloud as strong as Sephiroth. I think that both game and movie points prove otherwise:

* Cloud ran his blade through Sephiroth during the Nibelheim incident [No cells]
* Cloud got stabbed, stood his ground, and threw Sephiroth into the Reactor [No cells]
* Cloud's Geostigma was nullified, so with his own body not attacking him, he grew stronger once more
* Cloud gained a final mental strength after Sephiroth mentioned that he wanted to take everything and anything that he loved away from him

Say what you want, but both ingame and movie events continously reinforce the fact that Cloud has always been strong. It was his mental strength that came into question and was what started this all, as he simply could not handle the Jenova cell experimentation. He couldn't handle it mentally, which is why his mind messed up and he took on the Zack persona.

And as Lunar stated, there is never a mention within the film that the Jenova Cells were wiped out. It could have been something as simple as a reallignment of people's individual Lifestreams, so that they stopped overcompensating on the attack against the Jenova Cells. For all we know, they could now be simply co-existing.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

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Originally Posted by Christmas

Cloud is already very strong even without any enhancement. Notice in FF VII where they show the flashback of the Nibel incident where Cloud threw Sephiroth into the chasm despite being stabbed by him.

Quote:

---

Sephiroth plunges his sword into Cloud’s right chest.

Sephiroth: Don't... push... your luck...

Cloud pulls out Sephiroth sword from his wound and throws him into the chasm.

Sephiroth: ...It can't be!

---

---

Clouds sudden burst of strength can most likely be attributed to a sudden surge of adrenaline, not uncommon to those in extreme, life threatening situations, coupled with a healthy dose of plot contrivance. I mean he wasn't even strong enough to rate anything more then a "rent-a-cop" class soldier, yet he can defeat sephiroth? I never liked that plot twist due to just HOW contrived it really is. even with the adrenaline factor.

And also note that the question was, why is he stronger AFTER the jenova cells are gone? On a technical level he should have been weaker due to the fact he has lost some of his super-soldier genetics.

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I wasn't a fan of the film; I was one of the people that didn't want to see it or the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII made. That said, ideas.

First and foremost, Sephiroth may be evil, but in a lot of ways he's a pansy, and somebody needs to cop to it and say so. Sephiroth only displays insane amounts of power when his Jenova-induced abilities are put to work. The man's not made up of steel; if he's staring at a space demon in a glass pipe and some kid walks up to him and shanks him, he's going to get shanked. That's how it goes.

It's important to note that Cloud, while maybe not initially cut out for SOLDIER, did manage to survive the Mako infusion process, which would obviously give him physical enhancements.

As for the Jenova cells inducing strength, it should be obvious that the Jenova cells really do not enhance Cloud's abilities so much as act as a parasitic symbiote. The Jenova cells allow Cloud to maintain sanity by locking an identity into him in the events leading up to Final Fantasy VII, but only so that the body can continue to act as a carrier. As a carrier of the Jenova cells and an experiment for the Reunion, he was a success, but none of the experiments saw the level of perverse success as Sephiroth, who was infused with Jenova cells from before. Cloud, on the other hand, was not injected with Jenova cells until the Nibelheim massacre, and his response in "accepting" them was adverse in nearly every single way. Being cleansed would almost definitely make him stronger.

On top of that, you have to remember that Geostigma is not just the Jenova cells acting on their own. It's the body and soul commiting energy to fighting Jenova's infection off to a point that it's damaging the body (sort of how Holy was doing more harm than good when Meteor was about to smash into Midgar). Purging the body of Jenova cells would allow the body to recommit those efforts and resources to other fronts.

i think everyone should stop reading into it so much and just accept that cloud is a badass, no matter what. agreed? sweet.

Geostigma is a disease, mixed from Lifestream and JENOVA cells, it affects those who were in Midgar or around Midgar at the time of impact. The Lifestream just neutralizes the JENOVA cells, not the mako. Look at Vincent he only has Mako and look what he can do.

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Originally Posted by Bladen

Geostigma is a disease, mixed from Lifestream and JENOVA cells, it affects those who were in Midgar or around Midgar at the time of impact. The Lifestream just neutralizes the JENOVA cells, not the mako. Look at Vincent he only has Mako and look what he can do.

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Vincent had other, unknown tweaking done to his body, too.

But as you say, Geostigma is a disease - the physical manifestation of the struggle between the Jenova cells and a person's own spirit energy. This is a gross analogy, but removing pimples doesn't remove bacteria and sebum from your skin; it just takes away the harmful manifestations of those two substances.

Even if Jenova's cells were purged from Cloud's body, he'd still be physically strong - it's not like his muscles would shrink and weaken just because he lost the mechanism by which he'd become stronger. Besides, he had a great deal of natural strength of his own - a strength that only comes out when he's fighting for something special, though. He's got his weaknesses, but they get pushed aside when he needs to protect something or someone. In the Nibel reactor, he wounded Sephiroth and later tossed him into the Lifestream; in the Midgar ruins, he fought alongside his friends and vanquished Bahamut; finally, he regained all his strength and more when he fought Sephiroth for the last time.

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/657/657331p1.html read that for a pretty damn good explanation of the movie.

You're missing one key point. The reason that Cloud had Geostigma in the first place was because the Jenova cells in is body had become inactive. This is not stated in the movie, but a logical deduction since he had no other chance to come in contact with Jenova cells and neither Jenova nor Sephiroth had been utilizing Cloud's unique abilities for two years (i.e. being able to control him). So it would be fair to say, that since Geostigma is a fatal, crippling disease, the lack of the inactive Jenova cells causing it would make him stronger. Plus a bit of adrenaline and some serious determination.

I don't know why, but this thread makes me giggle. Eh. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

You're missing one key point. The reason that Cloud had Geostigma in the first place was because the Jenova cells in is body had become inactive. This is not stated in the movie, but a logical deduction since he had no other chance to come in contact with Jenova cells and neither Jenova nor Sephiroth had been utilizing Cloud's unique abilities for two years (i.e. being able to control him). So it would be fair to say, that since Geostigma is a fatal, crippling disease, the lack of the inactive Jenova cells causing it would make him stronger. Plus a bit of adrenaline and some serious determination.

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Hmm... I'd disagree. Cloud's Jenova cells are still alive and kicking; his superhuman strength and abilities prove that. Geostigma is just a biological reaction against the cells' presence.

I think you have to pay attention more. Sephiroth tells Cloud he is much stronger and even asks him, and Cloud replies along the lines of, he wouldn't tell it to the like oh Sephiroth. Cloud is fighting for the fate of the world. He has a lot more pushing him to do his best. The idea is, if you lose you're gonna die, you'll find that in life threatening situations, you're a hell of a lot stronger and quick witted than you realize.

THE JACKEL

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Originally Posted by ljkkjlcm9

I think you have to pay attention more. Sephiroth tells Cloud he is much stronger and even asks him, and Cloud replies along the lines of, he wouldn't tell it to the like oh Sephiroth. Cloud is fighting for the fate of the world. He has a lot more pushing him to do his best. The idea is, if you lose you're gonna die, you'll find that in life threatening situations, you're a hell of a lot stronger and quick witted than you realize.

THE JACKAL

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That was definitely a part of it, but Cloud's truly superhuman powers and strength - like, his ability to do stuff that no-one is physically capable of - are the result of having alien goodies inside his body. The extreme circumstances, and the need to protect what mattered to him, have him the "little push" he needed to overcome his fears and weaknesses and fight with everything he had.

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Originally Posted by Big D

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Originally Posted by Aralith

You're missing one key point. The reason that Cloud had Geostigma in the first place was because the Jenova cells in is body had become inactive. This is not stated in the movie, but a logical deduction since he had no other chance to come in contact with Jenova cells and neither Jenova nor Sephiroth had been utilizing Cloud's unique abilities for two years (i.e. being able to control him). So it would be fair to say, that since Geostigma is a fatal, crippling disease, the lack of the inactive Jenova cells causing it would make him stronger. Plus a bit of adrenaline and some serious determination.

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Hmm... I'd disagree. Cloud's Jenova cells are still alive and kicking; his superhuman strength and abilities prove that. Geostigma is just a biological reaction against the cells' presence.

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If the Jenova cells in his body were still active and he still had Geostigma, why wouldn't he have contracted it during the events that take place in the game. He still had Jenova cells injected into him, and yet no Geostigma. Remember, Jenova was even reawakend in the game (to an extent) by Cloud's presence. Unless you think it was just a coincidence.

Anyways, all I'm trying to say, is that as long as Jenova cells are active (i.e. being used to control you in Cloud's case), then you're safe from Geostigma. If not, as in the movie when Cloud had not been being controlled for two years, then Geostima presents. Once again, never stated anywhere, just my own theory. You don't have to believe it, but it makes pretty good sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

If the Jenova cells in his body were still active and he still had Geostigma, why wouldn't he have contracted it during the events that take place in the game. He still had Jenova cells injected into him, and yet no Geostigma. Remember, Jenova was even reawakend in the game (to an extent) by Cloud's presence. Unless you think it was just a coincidence.

Anyways, all I'm trying to say, is that as long as Jenova cells are active (i.e. being used to control you in Cloud's case), then you're safe from Geostigma. If not, as in the movie when Cloud had not been being controlled for two years, then Geostima presents. Once again, never stated anywhere, just my own theory. You don't have to believe it, but it makes pretty good sense to me.

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:)Good theory, and it does make sense - yet I disagree. Firstly, Jenova never truly dies or becomes inert. Even two millennia sealed in rock didn't finsh her. Loads of characters in the original game had Jenova cells, including SOLDIER members who were totally unaffected by the Reunion instinct, yet no-one ever appeared physically sick in a manner similar to Geostigma.

Second, Geostigma never existed until after Sephiroth and Jenova were defeated during the in-game events. After that, their essence - Jenova's cells and their spirit energy - were spread around the world, mainly infecting children. It wasn't till then that Geostigma started occurring. The people seem to believe that Geostigma is caused by the planet itself, a kind of 'punishment' - Marlene's narration suggests this at the beginning, and it's what Kadaj tells the kids at the Forgotten City. However, Kadaj later tells Rufus that he (or rather, Jenova) has "sent out the invitations" to everyone who'll be involved in the Reunion; Rufus then realises that he's referring to the Geostigma. Basically, Geostigma is a disease that's now triggered by the presence of Jenova cells, though it wasn't before. The corruption of life via Geostigma is what creates the 'dark' or 'negative' Lifestream; Sephiroth states that this energy is what he wants to harvest in order to "girdle and choke" the world.

This is what I love about FFVII - there's still room for speculation and theory, so there's the opportunity to ponder and discuss things like this. There are enough clues in the script - whether subtle or direct - to get you started, but you've got to go deeper to uncover the 'absolute truth'.

I think we should really see the sickness and the genetics enchancements as two seperate issues.

Ehhhhhh.......whatever.