Are ninjas useless?

I think they are. They can't fight as well as fighters or black belts, and all the black magic they do learn they can't use very well. The only real benefit of them is that they can still kind of fight, and can help out when hasting the melee classes. That's the only use I've ever found for them. Not to mention that while they're still thieves they basically can't do anything. I would personally rather have either a second fighter (to absorb damage and help dish it out) or a black belt (to dish it out hardcore) in place of a ninja, or maybe even a red mage (they have cool hats). I just don't see a use for ninjas at all.

So, are they useless or not? Discuss.

You can make the same argument for Red Mages being useless. No class is totally worthless, outclassed, but not bad. Anyway, it's not like you need to use a Ninja anyway.

I did use them on my first few games, and having Haste was awesome. No, he can't hit as hard as a monk, but there aren't many things that can. xD

A Ninja can pitch in with Haste if you don't want to spend two or more turns having your Black Mage cast it. As for Thieves, in the NES version, they prettymuch never fail at running from battle.

Ultimately, a second Fighter/Knight would probably be more useful in battle, but then you have to worry about generating the gil necessary to buy a second set of all those weapons and armors. And with regard to aesthetics, having two of the same sprite in one party is unsightly.

I think Ninjas are pretty nice, concerning they *can* deal quite a nice amount of damage AND act as Hasters of destruction if you wanna boost your Fighters' battle power. :D

Ninja: *throws Haste*
Knight: *swings sword*

VICTORY FOR EVERYONE!

A ninja hating thread. I like it. :D

Incidentally I think it's somewhat more valid to slap the old "useless" label onto Black Belts.

Ninjas are great. They get pretty good weapons, they get a pretty good defence, they're good at running away from battles and they'll get some basic Black Magic spells. I usually don't have them cast level 1 or 2 Fire/Ice/Thunder spells, but their Saber and Haste spells help a lot with saving the MP of the other mage character(s), especially in the last dungeon, since you'll need Haste against Lich, Kary/Malirith, Kraken, Tiamat and Chaos.

Sure, two Knights are better fighters than a Knight and a Ninja, but with Knight and Ninja, you'll have more variety and less redundance. I think Thieves start with a 2x-hit accuracy in the DoS version, and they get 3x-hit very early too, so they'll be quite guaranteed to hit and do a lot of damage in DoS, especially when you cast Haste on them.

Ninjas are okay. They don't hit hard, but they are decent magic users

FIR2, LIT2 and ICE2 can make a difference, if only to mop up what's left after your RM/BM is done. FAST can obviously make a difference. Every turn in battle matters. You can save a turn worth of waiting for your RM/BM to cast FAST on you, by casting it on yourself.

Ninjas are the second best in the game in terms of the quantity and quality of types of armor they can wear. I believe they're the first best in terms of how many weapons they can use. They are the only class which can use the third best weapon in the game.

They do seem to run better, in the remakes if not in the original. I don't know if the game mechanics back that up, but it seems so at a glance.

Everything is useless compared to a Knight, yes. Sometimes it's fun to take a party that's a bit weaker with greater variety. There's more to the game than maxing your stats. Armor and weapon discovery in the dungeons is lots of fun for me. But only if you actually get to use it all. Getting new magic is lots of fun for me. Ninjas are fun.

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Originally Posted by Dr Unne

FIR2, LIT2 and ICE2 can make a difference, if only to mop up what's left after your RM/BM is done. FAST can obviously make a difference. Every turn in battle matters. You can save a turn worth of waiting for your RM/BM to cast FAST on you, by casting it on yourself.

Ninjas are the second best in the game in terms of the quantity and quality of types of armor they can wear. I believe they're the first best in terms of how many weapons they can use. They are the only class which can use the third best weapon in the game.

They do seem to run better, in the remakes if not in the original. I don't know if the game mechanics back that up, but it seems so at a glance.

Everything is useless compared to a Knight, yes. Sometimes it's fun to take a party that's a bit weaker with greater variety. There's more to the game than maxing your stats. Armor and weapon discovery in the dungeons is lots of fun for me. But only if you actually get to use it all. Getting new magic is lots of fun for me. Ninjas are fun.

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The thing is that I personally never use magic except during boss encounters or unless if it's absolutely necessary, so being able to "mop up" doesn't mean a whole lot to me. And when I have them attack, they do significantly less damage than a knight or black belt would. And I'm aware that they can use more items/armor, but that doesn't really matter since the best armor and weapons will always go to your fighter/knight anyway. And I personally prefer having a second fighter/knight so I can have someone that can absorb damage and dish it out too (which like I said before, I find ninjas do less even with similar weapons). The only real advantage to ninjas that I can find are the extra FAST/Hastes.

As far as theives go, I don't see a point. In the original/Origins versions, they can't deal any damage at all. And sure they can run away, but that doesn't really help much when you're in a situation where you can't (i.e. a boss). In DoS, they do get 3x hit but due to their limited weapon selection they still can't deal that much damage.

I can see why people might like them, but the way I play FFI I've always found them to be a waste. Now, Black Belts on the other hand are a godsend. I don't get why everyone hates them. But that's another topic altogether.

How on Earth can anyone hate Monks? Likewise, no, nothing can hit as hard as a Monk or Fighter can, obviously.

I've failed to see how people do not like monks/black belts.

Yes its true he has the defense of a mage unless you level up.. but his damage is on par with Fighter/Warrior for most of the game. Or was at least for all of mine.. and by the end of my games he was doubling or tripling fighter's damage. His multiple hits allow for criticals, which rip up high defense monsters.

As for Ninja, I find him useful, but Thievies just... are awful to me.
Ninja's have second best armor, and do ok damage.... and have nice spells, they are a good support fighter. But until they become a ninja, its like dragging around nearly dead weight.

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Originally Posted by Zeromus_X

How on Earth can anyone hate Monks?

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Monks rock! They are the hardest hitters ever!

They're excellent as body shields when you don't wanna lose more important members in battle ;-P

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Originally Posted by Cinda

They're excellent as body shields when you don't wanna lose more important members in battle ;-P

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They can also equip actual shields and not those Protect Cloaks. With their High Evastion and their Increased Evasion from a shield that makes them quite useful.

Red Mage/Wizard > Ninja

Swap out the ninja for a Pirate

Then the RW can merge with the Pirate in the ultimate trance limit overdrive break attack!

GAH!!! Ninjas could equip shields? I never knew that. Oh hell. After all those wasted moments cursing my pathetic weak ninja. Thanks

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

And with regard to aesthetics, having two of the same sprite in one party is unsightly.

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It would have been really nice if Origins/DoS had been kind and thoughtful enough to recolor multiple characters in some way; i.e. if you have two Theives, the second would wear blue instead of green, or if you had two White Mages, the second one's robe would have purple trim instead of red, or something like that.

Just a thought. Oh well.

In general, the whole Thief and Ninja job thing sucks. If a thief can't steal, WHAT'S THE POINT? Knight, Master, Black Wizard, White Wizard - all you need.

I see a bit of problem with that logic. I could say Master is just as useless since Knight has almost as good a firepower and maybe even better (since the Master has been watered down in non-NES versions, and when I played the WSC version, a level 30+ Master with Haste and bare fists was barely able to scratch Chaos whereas Knight did about all of the damge), his defence isn't that great and he can't use any magic.

I could also say White and Black Mages are useless when you can replace them with Red Mages that can fight, have a better defence and both black and white spells. Though you could also say Red Mages are useless since two White and Black Mages get a lot stronger spells and more MP. Really, you could say any class except maybe the Knight is useless in the game. If you wanted to beat the game without "useless classes", you could play with 4 Knights or with 3 Knights and a Red Mage (for some healing, Fire2 against the undead and casting Haste), but is that really fun?

To each his own, but I don't see a logic with calling a class in FF1 useless. Though a Scholar in FF3j outside that one battle... :D

Ah well... I see your point with Scholar though. HA!

Would just like to say ...


Master >>>> Ninja imo
For FFOrigins
99defense, 6000~ damage if memory serves


Ninja >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Master imo
For FFDoS
On par to be 55~ defense at 99(not 99 yet so not completely sure.. it's either 0.5 per level + 2-3 innate defense or its 0.6 a level) and on par to be only about 2500 damage at 99.... Sad for someone who gets no equipment and no magic the entire game... to have his damage and armor cut in half.


Take Origins Monk... Cut origins monk in half.. meet DoS monk.

But basically... a ninja is a severely weakened fighter until he becomes a ninja, then he's a Red Wizard that has better armor choices and I think slightly better damage output, but without white spells.

And Seph says alot :)
No one can say anything bad about Fighter :)

look the only version that matters is the original NES version to be honest. Forget all these other versions that purposely try to make each class great in it's own way.

Now going through the NES version
Fighter/knight - can equip all the strongest stuff in the game, extremely powerful and can take a lot of damage, plus minor healing spells at class up, but can be expensive

Thief/Ninja- can equip decent equipment, but even the redmage can equip better swords than a thief until class change. Thieves can run well, but I never run because EXP is a must in this game. It's about average with every thing, the real benefit being FAST at class change, but that's about it.

BB/Master- Best with bare hands, giving you 4 extra weapon spaces, so you can have more of those special weapons for fighters. The bare hands get to be really powerful and they're cheap to equip, by far the cheapest in the game. Low defense though.

RedMage/Wizard- Can use strong weapons, second best to Fighter before class change, after class change Ninja can use the Katana, but otherwise RedMage can use all the weapons as well. Can use both white and black magic spells, and magic is severly limited, but can also deal good damage after magic is gone. Not extremely strong in any category, but is useful.

Whitemage/wizard- Can use all white magic, but magic is SEVERLY limited in the NES game, so honestly, not all that great. Plus magic is expensive and you can't cast it all that much.

Blackmage/wizard- Can use all black magic, but again magic is limited and not all that great. Gets decent attack after buying a catclaw though, but still a redmage ends up being more useful.

I stick with my well known awesome party, or should be well known
Fighter(strong and takes damage)
Fighter(second spot still takes a good amount of damage and great to have another strong hitter)
BlackBelt(with two fighters before they take most of the damage, plus he's extremely cheap for equipping the two fighters)
RedMage(FAST and EXIT for the last dungeon are the only required spells, but it's helpful to have a few others, and when he has no magic he can attack well too)

not only that both Knights learn some white magic at class change, so that's helpful as well.

THE JACKEL

NES = Thief has his uses. You either brought him for running, then fast/half a knight when class change came around, or you didnt and went with a Black Belt, Fighter, or Red Mage I guess. That was my personal feelings on which class to go with.

PS1 Origins = Thief loses his ability to run. Some of the thief swords get their accurate 50% to certain enemies bonus, but this still leaves him a little dry. Mages break the 9 charge barrier, and mages become alot more useful.. Black Wizard now has a million charges of Fast... red wizard has half a million. Black Belt is allowed to grow to great strength in the easy version, and Fighter didn't need any improvement anyway. Mages win, Black Belt wins, Fighter stays the same, Thief wins very little on his special swords, but ultimately loses because mages won't run out of charges now and he loses his superior running ability. Thief still has purpose I guess, but he took a major hit in this version in usefulness and neededness.

DoS = Black Belt seems to have been realigned to where 1-99 basically equals his 1-50 NES growth track(ie.. 99 on DoS = 50 on NES in damage and naked absorb level), thus in the minds of the programmers this made him equalled out and fair.. but really it weakens him quite a bit. He still is decent but now much weakened from his origin days. Thief gains an extra hit or two at certain times from a base accuracy boost, and have heard reports at times he does more damage than fighter. Mages are restricted slightly, but still have a good amount of charges for Fast/Cure etc... spells. Just now they all draw from the same pool. At high levels this pool is probably big enough for red or black mage to cast enough fast to not need ninja, but now with thief's improved accuracy and hit amount, he is I guess maybe 3/4 of a fighter, instead of 1/2. Add to this that he's the 2nd best armored in this game(after class change), barring optional dungeon equipment, and he's almost a shoe-in now over Red Wizard and Master, but maybe not a second Fighter.

All comments based on personal experiences, and/or FF1 FAQ reading/FF1 site browsing/FF1 comments on Message boards to fill in any gaps where I haven't played that class/version. :)
Just me opinion.
I only have the PS1 and DoS version.. I havent personally played the thief yet on the DoS version, but I hear people raving about his extra hits.

I never thought the thief or ninja were that bad. I found them both quite useful. (dawn of souls)

Having played up to Melmond in DoS, at level 17, my thief is regularly doing 5 hits at a time and is doing significantly more damage than my fighter, who has a better weapon than the thief but only gets 3 hits max. However the thief still has the least HP out of my party of F/Th/WM/BM.

Don't know about DOS, but I don't think the Ninja in the original NES version is good enough to warrant lugging around the Thief for half the game.

On bosses, even with the Katana, the Ninja doesn't inflict much damage. The only real benefit is his ability to use FAST.

And yes, I think the Red Wizard is much better than a Ninja. He is actually very good early in the game, can cast more spells per day, is restricted to higher level black and white spells, but can learn the most vital ones such as LIFE, EXIT, all the CURES, LIT 3, FIRE 3, and ICE 3.

It probably depends a lot about playing styles too.

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Originally Posted by ljkkjlcm9

Thief/Ninja- can equip decent equipment, but even the redmage can equip better swords than a thief until class change. Thieves can run well, but I never run because EXP is a must in this game.

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I run away from battles a lot because there's many enemies that aren't just worth fighting, those that can poison, petrify or paralyze you, and those that can kill you very quickly (Sorcerers, Mages etc). I think surviving dungeons is a must in this game. :D As for EXP, there's a plenty of ways to get some.

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BB/Master- Best with bare hands, giving you 4 extra weapon spaces, so you can have more of those special weapons for fighters. The bare hands get to be really powerful and they're cheap to equip, by far the cheapest in the game. Low defense though.

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And BB's low defence is what makes him expensive since you'll have to keep healing him and dragging him to the Clinic. :p

I guess I just prefer variety to being good in only attack power, which is watered down in non-NES versions and loses to Fighter/Knight anyway.

Origins:
some +20 bonus HP levels are moved around.. white mage benefits most i think.
50% damage swords actually work, such as coral and were/rune
BB is able to grow to great strength in easy mode, maxing at 99 absorb and 6000~ damage with 20hit.
Thief/Ninja loses his running ability
Mages get infinite magic charges in easy mode(well... it feels like)

DoS
some +20 bonus HP levels are moved around.. white mage benefits most i think again.
Black Belt's armor growth and damage growth are cut in half, making a 99 DoS BB equal to a level 49-50 NES BB
Thief gains a HUGE accuracy bonus making him do a few hits more than fighter usually, and out damage fighter.
The MP system replaces the charge system and while it is in my opinion more charges than the NES, it is less charges than the Origins version. But it depends on how you look at it and I guess it could be argued.
It really helps out Knight and Ninja, who get a decent MP pool growth, giving them alot more charges than the NES.

Trying to think but thats all I remember.. sorry for any errors.

So...

Thief/Ninja
NES: He's ok
Origins Easy: Bring BB or Red Mage instead
DoS: Thief >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BB
Thief >> Red Mage

Note that I'm only talking about the NES version, as that's really the only version worth talking about.

BB's are ugly. nuff said. ;)

Thief > all as well.

And everyone knows Ninja's are 1) cooler than you and 2) > pirates, as shown by Provaka.

Does it really matter which class is good anyway? FF1 is really easy no matter what matchup you have, unless you are doing some kind of special low level challenge or special lineup challenge.

edit: forgot to say, thieves are really good for the run factor in the NES version. You say you never run, but who doesn't run from sorcerors or w/e? And in a special party/single character config, you are very likely to NOT want to find petrifying or poisoning enemies.

Personally I like single character challenges, as while stuff like 4 WM or 4 Thief is hard, it still only takes a little perseverence to do. Now, 1 WM or 1 Thief, *that's* a challenge. Especially 1 thief because of the astos fight (WM it's easy, but thief, omfg.... 1 damage a hit).

well actualy I like the Ninja cause He can use blackmagic(mainly haste, i dont use magic a whole lot) and with ice/fire armor and Katana same with with Knight they can heal and stuff and are basicly tanks, Ninja isint hte best Fighter but he can fight and support with blackmagic and wont die at bosses in a couple hits.

Minks are only great and do crap loads of damage if they have haste and are protected long enough to attack, no magic at all and low defense bad.
and he doesnt really gain anything from class change. but he has great potential and is very cheap so you cant complain:D