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http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/pal...m.-.works.html
My close friend Armando recently used this in exp after testing out alot of theories with me and alone. It worked out quite well. Discuss X3 (and no when i tested it out, my 700 Hexas dont really turn the mob...).
Casting Blind as a strategy for keeping enmity sounds like a relatively good idea. I just wouldn't entrust that to anyone to do; it sounds more like a thing for last resorts, or, as they said in that topic, because they forgot to switch subjobs.
I'd keep it as something that's useful to know, but should be relegated to the back of the mind, if you know what I mean.
I dunno, it worked pretty damn well in the party. I plan to let him give it a shot again the next time we party. =P
Actually i would put this over /WAR if possible. He was able to keep hate over my Hexas when i was testing this out with him, without using any job abilities, and mostly just spellcasting.
When we partied against yesterday, the other party members weren't too keen on a /RDM sub, so Armando had to go /WAR. While he was keeping hate just as well, he was taking significantly more damage.
If you look over his parser logs, Armando with /RDM in many battles took under 600 damage, thats alot of MP saved. He also blinked tons of Sickle slashes.
Paladin have a Warrior sub, thats all i have to say.
PLD have a hard enough time keeping hate with DRK's, BLM's and RNG's walking around who do amazing Damage in WS's and Magic.
"Provoke" works better than any Red Mage Enfeeb or MB you can cough up, your PT must have had very few DD's if you actually kept anyone from death.
Including the ability of Provoke being stripped from you, there are many other "Gimps" a /RDM would add.
for instance: a WAR sub would probably help your DEF, better than a RDM sub in any event, your VIT would most definatly take a drop, Warrior abilities are also extremely usefull, Defender and so on, RDM job traits and abilities wouldnt help your Paladin at all either.
in fact..
Shame on you for even trying this more than once :D
Paladin sub Warrior, and only Warrior,
My DRK goes /RDM for Sneak/Invisible, Cure magic, and usefull Enfeebs while going SOLO.
RDM isnt a fit sub for any job in PT, only maybe SMN,BLM and WHM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch!
must have been pting against other mobs, or your friend wasnt using the same gear, because a RDM sub, i assure you, gimps your defense.
No it does not, WAR does not give any Defensive bonus outside a couple points of VIT possibly, because the DEF Bonus WAR gets at lvl 10 does NOT stack with those on PLD. Only thing you are losing is Defender, in which your hits become even more pathetic.
Next time, read the thread linked. The BLU at the start of the battle in one of the videos there leaded the battle with a couple hundred points of damage, and even PROVOKED and could not steal hate. Provoke if you did not know is only spike hate, and only holds hate at the beginning but quickly loses its hate spike. Enfeebles however are perpetual hate and stay with you unless hit, if those enfeebles do not give hate, then you are advocating that NINs cannot tank and should not use enfeebles for hate at all.
What are RDM job traits? Fast Cast, it lowers your Flash recast timer by a certain percentage and has upgrades every now and then. This is alot better than Provoke by a large means, because Flash is only 25 MP which in only 15 seconds(Sanction Refresh, Refresh, and Auto-Refresh) will regain back. Not to mention blind the mob serverely so that you take almost no hits at all while gaining perpetual hate.
Theres also Magic ATK Bonus which affects Seraph Blade, instead of doing 150, Armando can do alot more damage up to 300 + damage a Weapon Skill. A RDM/WAR can definetly tank, and in this case its about the same thing. And not to mention Magic DEF Bonus which is practically if i remember right, Shell1 casted on you forever. Not to mention Clear Mind.
Next time read the thread, the OP doesnt even recommend this until you get Refresh from RDMs to counter the MP lost from spells. RDM sub does not gimp your DEF at all except maybe a couple points of negligible VIT. In which parses on that very same link i posted shows that the tank took less than 600 damage on some, because he was able to Flash + Blink Sickle Slashes. /WAR however definetly takes MORE damage because you have to take them in the face almost definetly. +Enimty also helps with keeping hate, whilist Cover can give you that edge that Provoke has in help turning the mob when needed.
I know this player just as well as the poster you quoted, and trust me, he wasnt wearing any different gear, in fact he probably would be wearing BETTER gear than before since he is slowly getting his AF pieces.Quote:
must have been pting against other mobs, or your friend wasnt using the same gear, because a RDM sub, i assure you, gimps your defense.
Well, thanks for reading my posts.
all i could've said was "Provoke is missing".
How, i ask you once more, would Paladin get Hate back from a Black Mage or Ranger?
If a Black Mage does great damage, which they do alot, the mob, most of the time, comes after them... what would the Paladin do to get the hate back (knowing of course that the black mage will be destroyed in seconds).
Blind? Poison? some weak MB's?
you'd need alot of Emnity to be able to pull this sub job off.
and yeah sorry i didnt take my time in reading everything, but there is little need... this doesnt work out, i'll even try it out for you :greenie: see how it goes with me...
NIN's arent very good tanks in my opinion, go to FFvault, or any other site, and go to the RNG forums, they all have a problem with NIN telling them to "Hold back", otherwise the NIN would lose hate... this is true >_> the same problem would plague your /RDM sub as a PLD, but this time you dont have Provoke, although your Enfeebs might help...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionx
I ask of you to please read the thread before asking things such as those. The thread describes all...because seriously i cannot take you seriously if you are going to be close-minded, if you think it cannot work with such a dead set on it, then it wont. However please read the entire thread that i linked, it answers some of the questions you already have.
Who said Enimity Gear isnt used? He doesnt have all his AF but he does have some pieces, including a Parade Curaiss(same enimity as AF Body). And High Breath Mantle(only 70K). Did you not read the thread at all? If you didnt read it, please read it before posting.Quote:
you'd need alot of Emnity to be able to pull this sub job off.
I personally helped conduct a few experiments with this combination before the party that the OP posted about, and i was very surprised at the results.
I wouldnt care too much about what people think as a whole, theres alot of idiots. RNG is nerfed and useless, lol DRK and lol DRG, or lolPLD in merit pts. I only care about hard facts and stuff if it comes down to it. And i have also known NINs that can hold hate very very well also, and a simple Provoke could be all they need to hold the hate back after some big hate spike.Quote:
NIN's arent very good tanks in my opinion, go to FFvault, or any other site, and go to the RNG forums, they all have a problem with NIN telling them to "Hold back", otherwise the NIN would lose hate... this is true >_> the same problem would plague your /RDM sub as a PLD, but this time you dont have Provoke, although your Enfeebs might help...
PLDs have alot more hate keeping tools than NIN that being said, and i urge you to please be more informed before commenting >< (this is not a flame, but your posts indicate you didnt even read the thread yet). I refuse to believe that Provoke which is a WAR ability, is something a PLD needs to survive. Alot of people are a little worried that theres no Provoke, however Provoke is not the end all be all.
Ok, so as i promised, i tested this PLD/RDM out...
my brother went PLD/RDM, he was level 61:
Full AF, Body, Head, Hand, Feet, Legs.
Warrior Belt +1, Waist.
Knightly Mantle, Back.
A level 55 shield, the, uh, Ryl Knights Shield maybe?
Gluttony Sword, (sorry if i got this wrong, its the one PLD use at this lvl) Weapon
Pidgeon Earring... i think.. the stats were +20 HP or something.
Cassie Earring (although this earring doesnt help PLD)
2 Phalanx rings, the +10 Def >_>
Ryl Guards Collar, neck
ok, so we pt'd in Bibiki Bay, this was the setup:
PLD/RDM 61, tank
DRK/WAR 61, DD (me)
WHM/SMN 61, Healer
RDM/WHM 62, the usual RDM role, heal, refresh of course.
BLM/WHM 61, DD
BRD/WHM 61, Buffer
So we started, the PLD pulled a Bird, (I did this because i thought it would help better with the hate keeping)
I started hitting the Bird, hitting it, not missing too often.
The bird was still hitting our PLD, he kept enfeebing it, kept blink up too.
The mages were doing the usual, BLM healed the PLD along with the WHM a bit, RDM refreshed them, BRD did the same.
The PLD didnt lose the hate too often, maybe once or twice on me or the BLM.
Then, after maybe a minuete or two, i pulled the hate, after haven Double attacked the bird. And of course, my -200 Def kept me from staying alive long. the PLD got in front of me and started enfeebing it a
bit more, the mages kept me alive, the PLD still didnt have hate..
Finally the PLD pulled hate back, and i started attacking again.
This time i used Last Resort and Berserk, and used Guillotine, the bird took 700 damage, but didnt attack me, and i wasnt covered by the PLD at all, that was good i thought.
Then our BLM used Burst or Flood, cant remember, all i remember is it did around 600, (probably not burst, these a fire based birds so...yeah)
The bird went after the BLM, and the PLD followed, enfeebing it..
The Bird kept hitting the BLM, as is usual when a BLM does good dmg..
Then, after a good 20-30 seconds, the Bird pulled off one of those nice dive abilities, knocked our BLM out, did around 250 damage.
I used my Souleater (which i dont do too much) and Guillotined the Bird, it did about 650 damage, and the Bird had very little HP left, and started attacking me, now the RDM was helping us with MB's a bit,
The WHM started healing me, (i lost a ton of HP off that Souleater)
Our Bird friend decided to die after a few hits.
I decided to pull a few more Bird, as a test run.
Our WHM raised the BLM and we started again (after giving the BLM healing time of course)
we continued, the PLD pulled once more.
It all went the same pretty much, my Buffs (berserk, last resort) werent up, so i Guillotined it for about 400 damage.
It was going pretty well, PLD lost hate to the BLM and WHM a few times, but managed to get it back before too long.
Then, when the Bird has around 1k HP left i thought, i used Souleater+Last Resort+Berserk, it did around 850, the WHM healed my HP back in one shot, along with the RDM.
the Bird started attacking me of course.. PLD did the usual enfeebs, Blind, Paralyze, and others to pull hate back...
I disengaged, and used Defender.
the PLD did a WS, almost killed the bird... it was still attacking me..
The Bird killed me right before the BLM used Blizzard II to end the fight...
i stopped the PT and concluded that PLD/RDM might not be too good, not in Bibiki anyway.
And i had yet to try it out with our RDM actually enfeebing along with the PLD, our RDM was instructed to heal.
I had made our group mainly healing based on purpose, i didnt want to risk a WAR or BLU in our PT, dd'ing aswell.
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Well, maybe i'm a noob to you, but i tried this out, and saw how it went anyway.
After seeing PLD/RDM perform, it would seem to me that it just a RDM with a sword, can keep the hate maybe, but cant get it back, and our PT wasnt even DD based.
Sorry for any misspellings, i was ina hurry.
Sounds like you wanted this to fail Dude. I'm sorry but a DRK, BLM or the RNGs of days past could pull hate off of any tank with or withour Provoke. You have to be playing poorly to not realize that you must not go full blast with all of your JAs. This is what pisses a lot of people off about DRKs. They usually want to pull hate just to say, "huh huh I hitted it so hard".
I remember a while back I informd someone of BRD's ability to tank. Maybe you don't believe this either but BRD actually has the ability to hold more hate than any other job. Spamming Mazurka, Elegy, 2xMarch and having haste. Once we've build up hate (6+ cycles of Mazurka) a PLD could Invincible and not be able to pull hate from us.
So I told this PLD in my LS about it and for some reason he was infurated. He was the type who had some kinda inferiority complex and felt like NIN was taking his job. He didn't like to think that BRD could out-tank him with all of his enmity gear and enmity merits.
So we got a group together before an event and tried it. He would voke, flash etc as often as possible and I'd run through my cycle as often as possible. After each Mazurka the mob would turn to me. Before Mazurka was back up he would've pulled hate. Well after my third Mazurka he voked and then flashed... the mob didn't turn. It stuck to me. He immediately killed it (it was a low Orc in Yughott) and insisted that I was wrong and that he was able to pull hate every time.
He refused to see if, in reality, I could eventually hold the mob through a few more vokes and invincible (which I have since done). You sound like you are so against the concept of PLD/RDM for XP that you botched the test on your own by throwing out all of the damage you possibly could.
============================================Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeargdribble
I am a lvl 61 Dark Knight, i have no Haubergeon, no Sniper Rings... and i usually get flamed for not having good gear.
I do my BEST in PT's.
and i didnt throw all the dmg i could, read it again, Guillotine does this Damage all the time, THF buffs before Viper Bite or Everscretion alot aswell, i dont buff all the time either. But i do admit i like to do alot of Damage, because my accuracy isnt my strong point >_> other than that my pt was Healing based.
Edit: And please note, me and the BLM were the only DD's, if there was a WAR or RNG present i would have sat back and taken it easy.
THF? What THF? You didnt mention anything about THF. In that case why is the PLD losing hate? What kind of THF and PLD you have? You also dont have a few key pieces of gear, like High Breath Mantle which really helps and is reletively inexpensive. He seems way more geared for PLD/WAR imo.
Did your PLD use a combination of Flash and Blink? What KIND of enfeebles were you using? That says nothing if you just say enfeebles, he could be using poison of all things. Your PLD did not seem to Cover as well. I do not feel your PLD knew what he was doing and your description of events do not seem to be as detailed compared to the PLD i knew who did this. >_>;
Your mention of a THF also throws me off and makes me wonder...
I agree... a good THF would be SATAing. I don't think anyone should have trouble tanking after being SATA'd. Did your THF maybe SATA on you? lol
As a paladin I only use warrior as my subjob. Having played red mage for 63 levels, I know it does indeed have some hate pulling potential. but as a paladin I know that provoke is an instant hate spike once every thirty seconds. Now in my mind, enfeebling that may not actually stick isnt as useful as a hate spike in terms of hate management.
Although I can only say that's how it works in my mind. I've yet to try pld/rdm, but I might well do. I'd like to see if it's effective in all exp situations, or if it's limited in it's use. I'd also like to see how well it fares in ballista >.>
The thing is, to me, Provoke actually is a spike hate, which decreases over time quickly no matter what happens. Enfeebles, even when resisted, gets hate. A RDM/WAR used a combination of Provoke, Blind, Bind, Sleep, Dispel, and Curing, to tank. Somewhat similiar to NINs, however replace Provoke with Flash which is only slightly less hate than Provoke(however i am not sure if this is spike hate that decreases quickly or perpetual hate...i am tending to believe its perpetual going along lines of enfeebles) and thats fine imo.
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/red...hlight=Tanking
^ RDM tanking
Late EDIT:
It wouldnt have mattered, hate is dependant on a single person. It doesnt matter if the BLM got 1000 dmg and got that much hate and you did 900 or if you held back and did 100, the BLM will still get hate for that same 1000. Holding back means nothing on what party members you have outside your tank.Quote:
Edit: And please note, me and the BLM were the only DD's, if there was a WAR or RNG present i would have sat back and taken it easy.
You can do 900 DMG, mob doesnt turn, RNG does the same 900, and WAR does 800 some dmg, guess what? It wont turn at all if it was that they were doing. It doesnt matter if there was a RNG or WAR at all, i dont know what you were going with that. Hell if there was a BLM in that party too, and it did 1000 dmg, and if that didnt turn, then it didnt turn. It does not matter if there was a RNG WAR DRK in the PT with that BLM doing those types of damage, if it doesnt turn for one of them, it wont turn for all provided theres no hidden +Enimity or extra hate gaining abilities.
Hmm...so basically, PAL/WAR in the majority of cases. I love using Provoke and I love having a high def as well. ProtectIII would always be on me no matter what, and everyone else too.
Id like to know though how the difference in damage is when comparing /WAR to /RDM? I decided to be a PAL over a DRG (ill eventually level my DRG but for now, PAL to 75). So hows the damage output of a PAL with /WAR compared to /RDM?
All I can say is, it's good to experiment sometimes.
WAR sub provides no more def then RDM sub unless you count Defender at 50 which makes your damage really pathetic. Protect III is on you whenever you want because PLDs can learn that spell.
The damage you do per hit maybe wont be as high as PLD/RDM and you probably wont gain as much TP since you are always casting spells. However the damage you take is usually lower(less Curing = less downtime and = more exp), and when you DO use a Weapon Skill, provided that the weapon skill is elemental, it will do at least 100 more damage than without it.
In general the damage a PLD does is not that important as its usually low in the first place, its all about holding hate.
This is a pretty cool idea. I'd seen the Pld/Rdm used by a friend of mine. Phalanx and Stoneskin work wonders with a pld's already iron defense. There used to be debates on which sub paladin would use if they didn't need voke, and rdm and monk often topped the list. Many people's first inclination was something to the effect of "omg pld/nin would be the best tank ever" but then shield use, paladin's crappy evasion w/ utsusemi, etc got brought up and that sub gets dropped from the list. I think as a Taru paladin, Pld/Rdm might better play to our racial strengths - our enormous mp pool. I think the MP deficient races would be best served sticking with the /war standard. I have another friend, a taru pld, who subbed whm to some good effect. He was in a static so cookiecutter didn't apply to him. I don't know the details but I think the gist of the strategy was letting hate bounce for a bit and using curagas to get it back. I dunno, I'm probably explaining it all wrong, but the point is, cookie cutter subs are only cookie cutter because people don't want to risk learning something new. Cookie cutter protects the status quo.
Actually as stated by the OP of that thread who was Elvaan, the MP you lose you gain back as long as you have Refresh. So therefore MP Max is generally a non-issue.
Well right on. Then I have an idea. PAL will be my main job and once I get it to about 70+ish, Ill go back and level RDM to 30+ish. Then DRG, SMN, etc. Until im bored with the game...