"Cheap" tactics. Cheating or Fair Game?

I made this thread a fair while back ago, but there's a bunch of new people that hang around here that I'd like to gather the opinions of.

"Cheating" is a very harsh thing to accuse someone of. Especially if the accuser can't tell the difference between "real" cheating (eg. gameshark, secret button inputs) and the "other" kind of cheating, the cheating that really isn't. (eg. using the best character in a fighting game, ramming opponents off the course in racing games)

In Soul Calibur 2 and 3, every stage has an edge. And if you somehow manage to manuever your opponent into a position where you can ring them out and then proceed to do so, it should NOT be considering cheating. I play at arcades frequently and my skill level is considerably higher than the regular player so I get accused of using "cheap tactics" or "cheating the game" at least once every few days. Why my opponent decided to let me push them around to the edge is beyond me. Ironically, about half of my ring outs are performed when my back is to the edge and I flip the opponent over my head. This suggests that when I move toward the edge, the opponent sees the opportunity to ring me out and tries to only to realise he's been lured into a trap. Now if an opponent has every intention of knocking me out of the ring, why would he call ME a cheater when I put him over instead? Hypocrisy at it's finest. Jackasses.

In Initial D: Arcade Stage, all the racing is done on tight, twisty mountain tracks. It's quite simple for a worse racer in a car that starts a little better to get the lead in the open moments of a race and hold it all the way to the end by blocking his opponent. I frequently take my opponents to a course called Irohazaka, a road that's tighter than most. I've had quite a few noobs groan at me when I make my selection. Coincidentally, Irohazaka also happens to have the most turns out of all the courses and thus provides the greatest opportunity to pass but the number of people that simply decide not to try because they assume I'm going to win just because I've pick a "cheap" course never fails to astound me. Honestly, people are some douche bags.

Those are my arguments. I can't really see how someone can label someone a cheater for doing something that's designed into the game for the specific purpose of bettering the user. It's like those weirdos who say Holy Wars are cheating in FF8. I say, if it's in the friggin' game, you're allowed to use it.

Yeah, I agree with you on both counts. This post was way longer and more detailed but I just hit ctrl and some other button that made me skip back a page and lose it and now I can't be assed to type it out again.

I can't see how the second one is being cheap when both of you have to drive on the same course, it's not like you have an advantage.

If you're being cheap like, doing an infinate combo on someone in a fighting game, however, then you suck.

Of course its not cheating. If a character is stronger than the others, I would be stupid not to pick him because of some made up honor-rules.

I get this alot in FPS games. People always whine when I use snipers, explosives, rocket launchers and the like. The funny thing is, noone is keeping them from using those weapons too, its their fault when they refuse to use them and then lose.

haha, I complain in shooter games about people that spray, or spray rockets, or keep throwing nades. But I typically only say something when someone spams it. Because honestly, that's not playing the game. But of course, it's gotten to the point that these people upset me so much that I hack and then they get mad at me, so it all evens out haha.

THE JACKEL

I honestly believe that things like holy wars were added to a game to help people who are not very skilled at the game. KOTR in FFVII is another example. Making your party invincable and inflicting so much damage that you kill a boss with three times as much damage as he has HP is just not fair play.

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Originally Posted by Shin Omega

I honestly believe that things like holy wars were added to a game to help people who are not very skilled at the game. KOTR in FFVII is another example. Making your party invincable and inflicting so much damage that you kill a boss with three times as much damage as he has HP is just not fair play.

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If Square has to put in items to assist the so-called unskilled players, then Square isn't giving it's fans much credit. It doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to play Final Fantasy, especially FFs 7 and 8..

Besides, it's pretty much unheard of to fight the Weapons with KOTR in FF7. I know you can beat Ruby with Hades pretty easily but the only alternative for Emerald would be to Mime + Counter a limit break. And that's just pointless materia mastering, which requires even less skill than acquiring a Gold Chocobo to go get KOTR anyway.

I think it's a very cheap-o way of playing, but not cheating.

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If you're being cheap like, doing an infinate combo on someone in a fighting game, however, then you suck.

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Yes, I HATE when people do that. I don't consider it cheating, but very cheap. And in most fighting games ALL characters are good if you know how to use them. My favorite fighting game is Tekken, and I can kick ass with Mokujin. Even if he's someone I never use. See, I'm not so good at using, say, Julia. But when Mokujin is Julia I do just fine. Odd.

Well, talking about using holy wars being cheating, then you may as well say the whole game is. I think overleveling is pretty cheap too. I mean, you over level then fight a boss that someone else is having trouble with, and they say something like "geez, that was easy! how are you stuck?" OF COURSE IT'S EASY WHEN YOU'RE LEVEL 1,000!!!

In FFVIII you can junction everyone's stat's to max, easily. Tell me that isn't kind of cheap when you fight Ultimecia (an already easier than usual boss) and beat her in four hits?
You could beat Ultima weapon in three turns that way!
Rinoa: Draw Eden
Squall: Aura on Irvine
Irvine: Demolition Shot
Didn't even need turbo controller (which is cheating, sorta).

While we're on the topic of cheating, I just want to say that sometimes it's nescessary. Some games like GTA I don't think are fun unless you DO cheat.

EDIT: hrm...wrong strategy.

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Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy

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Originally Posted by Shin Omega

I honestly believe that things like holy wars were added to a game to help people who are not very skilled at the game. KOTR in FFVII is another example. Making your party invincable and inflicting so much damage that you kill a boss with three times as much damage as he has HP is just not fair play.

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If Square has to put in items to assist the so-called unskilled players, then Square isn't giving it's fans much credit. It doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to play Final Fantasy, especially FFs 7 and 8..

Besides, it's pretty much unheard of to fight the Weapons with KOTR in FF7. I know you can beat Ruby with Hades pretty easily but the only alternative for Emerald would be to Mime + Counter a limit break. And that's just pointless materia mastering, which requires even less skill than acquiring a Gold Chocobo to go get KOTR anyway.

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That's what i'm saying... KOTR=completley unessessary. FF isn't a hard game and their are strategies for beating everything without the super-materia or becoming invincable. But there are players who arent good at FF and there are younger fans who might find it difficult... The items (i believe) are primarily for them so they can enjoy all parts of the game. I don't believe these items are hard to get, simply time consuming.

KOTR is just a pain in the ass to get.

Sorry Mo-Nercy, but this all seems like a ruse for you to post about how much you "pwn n00bs" without anyone being any the wiser. But I'm onto you...

You know people, the japanese do think us silly americans are stupid, you know Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, yeah that's called Final Fantasy USA over there, and that game is for retards or little kids to learn about RPGs. Either way, I see no problem with rare items to make the game easier in a single player game, if you think it's cheap, you don't have to use it, but someone else can if they want to. Cheap really only applies to multiplayer games.

THE JACKEL

I've never even heard of a FFMQ.

There's nothing wrong with KOTR, it takes a crapload of time and effort to get it, either that or you have to kill one of the Weapons and trade it for the Gold Chocobo. Either way, it's just a nice reward for spending time on the game to go that far to actually get the thing in the first place, it looks flashy and cool and it's strong. If you went to the bother of getting it in the first place, you're perfectly entitled to use it.

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Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy

I say, if it's in the friggin' game, you're allowed to use it.

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This is absolutely true in most cases. In the case of RPGs, most of the 'cheap' items take a heck of a long time to get. Anyone who's willing to put in the time and effort to get KotR deserves to use it whenever they like, if you ask me. Otherwise you might as well start criticising people for levelling up.

On the other hand, there are certain rare occurences when a certain character or weapon can seriously upset the balance of a game, and in those instances those characters can be quite rightly banned from serious play. Other times, stages are banned for presenting an unfair advantage to certain characters (Hyrule Temple + Fox = Suckiness). I generally find it's a good idea to agree on a set of banned characters/stages before playing someone even semi-seriously. That way, there's no way your opponent can blame you for kicking their butt. :D

Only if it doesn't take the fun out of the game or something.

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Originally Posted by Maxx Power

Sorry Mo-Nercy, but this all seems like a ruse for you to post about how much you "pwn n00bs" without anyone being any the wiser. But I'm onto you...

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I could pwn them without resorting to any of the tactics that they consider cheap :p

Maybe.

Besides I've been telling people I'd own them in Soul Calibur ever since I had reason to.

If it doesn't break or go around any game mechanics, then there's nothing wrong with it. I don't care if something's cheap (Well I do, I'll yell at someone for living xD), it's not cheating.

Some things can be "cheap", but not really cheating. I'd make an example of my own, but you already gave the best two possible. :p

It depends. If something is so mind-numbingly broken to where the game is simple on any difficulty setting, than its as close to cheating as can be without a cheating device. It's still just cheap; not cheating.

I don't even use Holy Wars. Omega is easy without them.

KOR takes too long...god, it takes like five minutes to use. xD

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Originally Posted by Kentarou

Some things can be "cheap", but not really cheating. I'd make an example of my own, but you already gave the best two possible. :p

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I agree on this note. I don't really like the cheap moves either; I try not to use them and ... dislike it ... when other's use them on me. But yeah, cheating is Gameshark and whatnot.

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Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy

In Soul Calibur 2 and 3, every stage has an edge. And if you somehow manage to manuever your opponent into a position where you can ring them out and then proceed to do so, it should NOT be considering cheating. I play at arcades frequently and my skill level is considerably higher than the regular player so I get accused of using "cheap tactics" or "cheating the game" at least once every few days. Why my opponent decided to let me push them around to the edge is beyond me. Ironically, about half of my ring outs are performed when my back is to the edge and I flip the opponent over my head. This suggests that when I move toward the edge, the opponent sees the opportunity to ring me out and tries to only to realise he's been lured into a trap. Now if an opponent has every intention of knocking me out of the ring, why would he call ME a cheater when I put him over instead? Hypocrisy at it's finest. Jackasses.

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Just tell them to shut up, you have to work for ring outs and if you get one you deserve the victory.

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Originally Posted by Mo-Nercy

I made this thread a fair while back ago, but there's a bunch of new people that hang around here that I'd like to gather the opinions of.

"Cheating" is a very harsh thing to accuse someone of. Especially if the accuser can't tell the difference between "real" cheating (eg. gameshark, secret button inputs) and the "other" kind of cheating, the cheating that really isn't. (eg. using the best character in a fig/hting game, ramming opponents off the course in racing games)

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For the first kind, I'd say that using a Gameshark is definitely cheating, imo. Not that I necessarily abhor the use of such a tool, but if a game was super-hard and I wanted to see what was a head of where I die/get stuck/hit a plateau/whatever then I have no problem with it. I used to do that with the Game Genie back in the ol' NES days, for games like Battletoads. If a game has secret button codes in the games already without the use of gamesharks (Recent GTA games are a great example of this.) then I have no problem with using them. (If I feel I have to in a given situation.) I feel same way about using the best charactor or any other tactic which the designers clearly let you do in the game.

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Originally Posted by Mo-Mercy

Those are my arguments. I can't really see how someone can label someone a cheater for doing something that's designed into the game for the specific purpose of bettering the user. It's like those weirdos who say Holy Wars are cheating in FF8. I say, if it's in the friggin' game, you're allowed to use it.

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Holy Wars are great to use during the fight with Ultimecia or any other difficult boss in the castle on Disc 4, but it would be cheating a bit (in my eyes) if you had one early on and used it in a fight with an easy boss. These things are ok to use in certain challenging scenerios. I like to used the Knights of the Round materia to fight the Emerald and Ruby weapons, but not for any other battles. (You can easily put away Safer Sephiroth with KOTR, which I think is too cheap, imho.)

I always use KOTR to take out Bizzaro Sephiroth in one hit and then just leave the Safer Sephiroth battle to my team. I don't know why, it's just more convenient that way.

No, it's not cheating, but sometimes taking advantage of something in a game makes it less fun to play. For instance, when playing Smash Bros. Melee with a friend, we always refrain from "side-fighting," or hitting one another as we attempt to jump back onto the stage. It's an annoyingly easy opportunity to kill someone, and I'm sure all the "pros" take advantage of it, but it's much more sporting, and, ultimaitely, enjoyable, to let one another back onto the stage before commencing the pounding.

Azar, tell me that SSBM is more enjoyable without edge-gaurding when you're fighting someone who knows how to play Samus.

I think edge-guarding is a perfect example, though, and I intended to bring it up whether or not someone else did. I believe that there's certain things, such as edge-guarding, that are deemed cheap by some, but becomes absolutely necessary when you get to a certain proficiency in the game. When I played the original, if I edge-guarded at all, my friends would flip out on me telling me I was being cheap. I suppose, at that level it is cheap, but now that I play with some people who are really experienced, I'm going as far as learning how to properly edge-guard.

I suppose that brings up the point of whether or not someone should have to play down to their opponent's skill level. There's definitely gaps of skill level between players (like my friend who is trying to train me; he constantly punishes me when we play). The whole notion of things being cheap, in multiplayer games, at least, comes from these gaps in skill. Suddenly something isn't so cheap when both players are capable of it and will use it on each other when the opporunity arises.

If it's in the game, as far as I'm concerned, it's usually not cheating. There are certain glitches that are flatout unfair in games (such as that damn move that the Ice Climbers can use to freeze you in place) that I would consider cheating.

I try to play skillfully, and if a game is geared to let the cheapest person win I'll most likely take those cheap courses to atleast stay on par. An example would be Halo 2. In Halo 2 there are many things that are exclusively considered cheap in it. Not just weapon whoring and camping like in other FPS but a variety of things such as:

1. Plasma Pistol
2. Super Jumps
3. Throwing the flag in CTF games.

I do use the plasma pistol, and I throw the flag in CTF. People get really pissed at the Plasma Pistol, because it's really a deceptive weapon that requires a lot of skill. It's not blatant skill like a sniper rifle would require in aiming, no it does most of that for you. I enjoy the plasma pistol because you can kill people using plasma pistol + melee or plasma pistol + BR or plasma pistol + magnum with out even having a full charge on the plasma pistol. Most of the time I'll deliberatly miss with the first plasma pistol and then charge for not even half a second the BR them or melee unless I'm up against a sniper rifle, rocket launcher, shotgun, or any fast killing weapon. Most of the time I'll be called a newb, because they really thought they had me. A team of people using the BR and plasma pistol can be downright devastating, anyone who's played Team Hardcore in Halo 2 on XBL knows this. Then again, a team of people just defending one sniper can be equally devastating. It comes down to skill and communication in the end.

As for throwing the flag, it's cheap as hell. In MLG (major league gaming) they will DQ you for throwing the flag in some places. But I don't play MLG, do I? I couldn't care less if it's considered cheap I've taken the time to memorize where I can conveniently throw a flag threw a window they're the one who can't communicate with their team or doesn't plan things out. As far as I'm concerned it's part of the game.

There are some characters in some games that just are overwhelmingly unbalanced I won't use though. An example being Guilty Gear in the arcades, most EX modes are way over powered but you can still use them. I don't. They're simply unbalanced compared to the non-ex characters.

There are certain cheap tactics that take no skill, and that's when I tend to complain. Namely in a FPS or a game like Gunz Online, people that just run around with the trigger down the ENTIRE time, or just keep tossing nades the entire time. It requires no skill whatsoever and gets really annoying. Of course, more than half the time I take out my revolver and pop two or three clean headshots and kill them. Then I yell "Learn to aim" or "Thanks for Spraying!"

But they really are cheap tactics.

AS for SSBM, my friends all think I'm cheap period. Because I beat every single one of them. It's funny how I have them even choose who I use, and still consistently beat them. Ah well such is life. My brothers use to get mad at me in Smash for just sitting to the side and letting them beat on eachother, then it came down to me with like, 5 lives and them with 2 and they'd get mad at me. Hey, you guys can kill eachother all you want, less work for me to have to do. And whenever one would come over to fight me, I rule at 1v1 so I typically just beat them up and they ran away haha. But I found as I get older, I get impatient with games and that tends to be my main flaw, especially in fighting games. I'll just charge the enemy even if I know it's dumb, because I want to play, not sit here and dance and wait for something to happen. Who cares if I die sometimes if I'm constantly playing, though it's annoying when they keep doing it over and over, ah well such is life.

THE JACKEL

While there are cheap tactics, they cannot be considered cheating. Cheating has to involve breaking the rules of the game, which can only be done via hacking tools.

Cheap tactics simply exploit the inherent weaknesses of the rules of the game. They can be frustrating to deal with, but even cheap tactics can be countered, perhaps by another cheap trick. Sometimes they can spoil the fun and challenge of the game, but gamers are fairly self-regulating on this matter anyways.

>>> Cheap tactics and cheating are two different things..

Most people refuse to play against me in a Doom DeathMatch these days, simply because im too good at it and they think its cheap..

But I do hate cheap tactics, despite often resorting to them myself.

Cheap tactics are fair game for the most part in my opinion. They're an inherent part of the game, how can it really be cheating? But if someone overuses a cheap tactic then it gets annoying.

But the examples that the thread starter posted definately seem fair enough for me.

And I really don't see how using KOTR in FFVII is cheap, it takes so much smurfing work to get, you should be able to use it when you want.

I don't really use it because its cheap, it just takes so damn long. I'd rather mime-spam Limit Breaks, but thats just me.

There is a fine line between cheap and you sucking...usually in a game as long as you are within bounds of that game, whatever happens is fair. For example while Sagat's fierce punch is very and even some say overbearingly powerful, it is not cheap to use that move over and over. In fact if you get killed by it, then you suck, its not an issue of it being cheap, there are ways around that punch. Its just that, that particular move is very good. Or in the case of the wall in Tekken which makes you take uber ammounts of damage. Its not cheating or cheap, its there, and if you get hit in there then you either suck, or messed up. In the old Street Fighter days, throwing was considered "Cheap" and people get into real life fights over it or let the other guy throw them back if they threw them.

Now in CvS2, as much as i hate this, the glitch Roll Cancel is not cheap. The glitch lets you do a special move with an invincibility of a roll, hence its almost in all ways "invincible". Supers go through you, special moves or etc. Its not unbeatable though, and it doesnt break the game and in fact since it is so hard to do, it is considered a skill on its own, and not all RCs are the same..in fact it changed the game it is played today, for better or worst.

However the point of being cheap appears when the game is broken beyond playable or un-fun. For example if something made it so that the Fierce Punch can kill you in one shot, it doesnt matter if you can do your most l33t combo in the world...you lose in that one punch, in that sense, i can sorta say its cheating and broken. So to me personally, it is only cheating if you are using a 3rd party device, or there is something so hideiously wrong with whats going on that it adversely affects gameplay rendering it "unplayable".

Other than that, those who say those are cheating or being cheap or etc...well yeah they usually are not that good players to begin with, either in taking the game seriously, skill in the game, or game sportsmanship. Ie: The Scrub.

EDIT: On the note with infinite...people can and still do mess up including MvC2 infinites, and for some traps there are loopholes, so its not totally broken. On that note MvC2 is very cheesy and unbalanced lol.

http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34747
^Best article on cheapness ever

well, cheating isn't that big a deal. It simply means you are unskilled and require extra help. and KOTR, just isn't even worth it.
I HATE people who give me dirty looks and look down on me if I use a game shark! Hey if I wanna cheat it's none of your damn business and come on, it's not like I'm murdering someone, it's just a game shark!!!
But to get back on topic, cheap play is just cheap. Like when playing a fighting game, always using laser beams that take half of your opponents health or constantly using the same unblockable combo. It's super cheap, but fair. No fun.

^ But if those laser beams can be gotten around and is not game breaking yet you still get hit by them, who is at fault?

I only consider something cheap if it gives newbie players an insurmountable advantage over top-notch players. Unless it takes an arm and a leg to get, it's cheap.

"Cheap" play is perfectly fair, because they could do it too if they took the trouble to find out how. Of course, some things actually are pretty cheap (like using Chun Li's infinite kick on Street Fighter and nothing else). Even if they complain that you're cheap because you're better than they are, you can always handicap yourself just a bit. That usually calms them down.