A simple, easy theory

With all of these terribly complex theories and arguments running around, I thought I'd post something that shouldn't actually bring too much argument; just maybe discussion.

So, I have a theory on how the soldiers of Galbadia and Esthar can use para-magic without GFs. The game states that GF use is not the only form of para-magic, after all, and I think that they use a different method: Junction Machines.

These machines store magic and, with training, allow its use by the bearer. Junction machines of some sort have precedence in the JME; this makes sense a less powerful method of para-magic that doesn't run the risk of memory loss, but requires too specialized training and not enough power for the SeeDs to use it. Of course, it was likely developed by Odine, which is why during the last War, the Galbadian soldiers (Laguna and company) didn't have these. Given that Odine's products (like the Bangle) still make it out, it's reasonable to think that this is one of Galbadia's para-magical devices, like its anti-magic barrier.

Thoughts?

Aside from the 'store magic', which I've always thought was related to people, not the junctions in FF8, I think this makes sense.

Well, I just figured that that was special to GF Junctions; after all, there are the 'blah' Stones that cast spells without being linked to people. It might also link to the memory loss.

I don't want to discard, and even less disprove, this kind of theory. It just seems to me that people think further than the game developers do. A game planner might have thought of something along these lines, but if it was official they would probably have made it more obvious.

Game producers often mostly have money on their mind. A key part of Final Fantasy is the big world it's set in and the lot of background story there is. If they thought of something like this, don't you think they would have wanted to include it in the game? A few sentences in the Tutorial section would have sufficed.

Keep in mind that it's only a game, not everything can be explained.

What does the Ultimania Guide say regarding this? I must admit it is rather interesting. (It's certainly easier on my mind then certain TC theories.)

I'm actually not sure; I'm still learning Japanese, so I haven't been able to translate the few pages of the Ultimania that I actually have.

As to whether the developers meant it this way...Well, I'm not sure that they did, but it makes the setting more coherent for me to think of things like this, and so I do; I like to roleplay and write in the FF8 world, and that can be done better if the setting's fleshed out.

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Originally Posted by Qurange

As to whether the developers meant it this way...Well, I'm not sure that they did, but it makes the setting more coherent for me to think of things like this, and so I do; I like to roleplay and write in the FF8 world, and that can be done better if the setting's fleshed out.

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It's fully OK with me, just wanted to get my thoughts out on the numerous theories that flood the forums, and this seemed like a fitting thread to do it in. I don't mind them, it's actually quite interesting to read. Thanks for sharing this theory :)

Ah, someone asks a question of my experience... You see, Para-Magic, is as Dr. Odine defined it... Manipulating various, apparently ambient, energies.

Say you focus on air molecules... Now focus and speed them up... What do you have?... Fire. Or the equvilent short burst of it that merely does a singe of damage.

Balamb Garden is the only facility that officially experiment and train their SeeDs to use Guardian Forces. With these, 'beings' of specified energy signatures, one is capable of absorbing/store and manipulating greater amounts of energies.

Shiva, for example, is a Guardian Force that is attuned to the liquid/solid state of matter of water and therefore "ICE". By means not fully understood, a Guardian Force 'junctions' to a Summoner and this results in a 'symbiotic' relationship. If a summoner draws and stocks Ice energies to themselves/GF, this will increase the GFs power. For example. If Ice is junctioned to increase strength stats, Shiva is apparently increasing 'muscle mass'. Health, mental power (MAG) ect, work in the same way.

Now, most often ask the question: How can Galbadian and other SeeDs use magic if they do not have a GF?

It's simple. With a GF a Summoner can Draw and Stock magic. But without a GF one can only Draw and Cast.

Balamb SeeDs: Draw/Stock/Cast/Junction

Galbadia/Trabia SeeDs: Draw/Cast.

The advantage that the Balamb SeeDs have over others is that they have ambient and a near unexauhstable supply of energies. Instead of relying on random available energies from their enemies or "Mana Springs"

If there are any further questions please ask... And don't forget to study the next Chapter: Time Compression: The Everlasting Moment.

I always just figured that FF8 had finally contradicted itself.

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Ah, someone asks a question of my experience... You see, Para-Magic, is as Dr. Odine defined it... Manipulating various, apparently ambient, energies.

Say you focus on air molecules... Now focus and speed them up... What do you have?... Fire. Or the equvilent short burst of it that merely does a singe of damage.

Balamb Garden is the only facility that officially experiment and train their SeeDs to use Guardian Forces. With these, 'beings' of specified energy signatures, one is capable of absorbing/store and manipulating greater amounts of energies.

Shiva, for example, is a Guardian Force that is attuned to the liquid/solid state of matter of water and therefore "ICE". By means not fully understood, a Guardian Force 'junctions' to a Summoner and this results in a 'symbiotic' relationship. If a summoner draws and stocks Ice energies to themselves/GF, this will increase the GFs power. For example. If Ice is junctioned to increase strength stats, Shiva is apparently increasing 'muscle mass'. Health, mental power (MAG) ect, work in the same way.

Now, most often ask the question: How can Galbadian and other SeeDs use magic if they do not have a GF?

It's simple. With a GF a Summoner can Draw and Stock magic. But without a GF one can only Draw and Cast.

Balamb SeeDs: Draw/Stock/Cast/Junction

Galbadia/Trabia SeeDs: Draw/Cast.

The advantage that the Balamb SeeDs have over others is that they have ambient and a near unexauhstable supply of energies. Instead of relying on random available energies from their enemies or "Mana Springs"

If there are any further questions please ask... And don't forget to study the next Chapter: Time Compression: The Everlasting Moment.

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I don't really agree with this. I think that, because Squall shows no feats of superior strength in the game, a 'strength' Junction instead increases the power of physical blows, be it through better cutting power at the time of strike or whatever. Further on this, there are no Galbadian or Trabian SeeDs, according to the game, and the Galbadian soldiers are never shown to 'draw' magic, so this doesn't really work, for me.

As for manipulating energy, sure, that's what para-magic is, and that's what draw points give; energy of a specific type.

I don't really agree with this. I think that, because Squall shows no feats of superior strength in the game, a 'strength' Junction instead increases the power of physical blows, be it through better cutting power at the time of strike or whatever. Further on this, there are no Galbadian or Trabian SeeDs, according to the game, and the Galbadian soldiers are never shown to 'draw' magic, so this doesn't really work, for me.

As for manipulating energy, sure, that's what para-magic is, and that's what draw points give; energy of a specific type.[/QUOTE]

Uh, there ARE Galbadian and Trabian SeeDs. And as depicted in your Manual Dr. Odine, All people are capable of using Para-Magic. But of course, this is only my perspective, and your free to have/share your own as much as I am to have/share mine... See kids? We CAN read the same book and be on different pages...

P.S.: Seriously, this was the way I saw it because as I played this game I loved to dislike, I tried to find an understanding of what was happening. And this explains it best. All people can use Para-Magic, but from the common "Player" aspect, one would think that they can only use magic while junctioned to a GF. When the question, on these very beloved forums, arose, I felt compelled to voice my view of how it would be 'plausiable' in the 'real world' of FFVIII. To me it makes more plausable sense. And don't get me started on the R=U Theory... I'll more than likely be banned again as many times as a Sorceress has died... LOL...

Pharoah, your explanation doesn't work for two reasons. GFs cannot be 'energy beings', because Energy does not stay around and collect itself into distinct forms, as numerous GFs, such as Ifrit, Odin, Tonberry, Cerberus, and Bahamut did.

And Gilgamesh, but then again, he came through a dimensional cleave from FF5's X- zone.

Now, it seems they can leave trace amounts of themselves in places as electrical signals, which would suggest they rest elsewhere until called up by those their piggyback signals are residing in.

Addendum: Brain fart- it also fails because Galbadian soldiers, not junctioned to GFs, have stocked magic. Kiboshes your theory.

And while people can have differing perspectives, empirical support is expected.

I like your idea about the junction machine and it makes sense unlike alot of other ideas alot of people throw out.

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Uh, there ARE Galbadian and Trabian SeeDs. And as depicted in your Manual Dr. Odine, All people are capable of using Para-Magic. But of course, this is only my perspective, and your free to have/share your own as much as I am to have/share mine... See kids? We CAN read the same book and be on different pages...

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No there are no Trabia SeeDs, Trabia Garden does not have the facilities required to fully train students into SeeDs, so they must send them on to Balamb Garden to finish their training, this was show with Selphie when you first meet her. I am unsure whether Gabaldia Garden has SeeDs or not it never really says but I would assume they do given the fact that Irvine who is not a SeeD was allowed to join Squall and co. Had Gabaldia Garden not been able to train SeeDs like Trabia then Irvine probably would have been sent to Balamb to finish his training.

Also I always assumed that there were other GFs that the party never encounters that the other SeeDs juntioned so that they could use magic.

I'm pretty sure it said that only Balamb Junctioned GFs, as the reason Irvine remembered Edea from their childhood (and their childhood in general) is because he never Junctioned GFs as a part of his training, and didn't suffer the side effects of amnesia as a result of Junctioning GFs.

Edit: Holy smurf. Why.....

Forums make me feel dirty because I never even think about things like this.

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Originally Posted by Zeromus_X

I'm pretty sure it said that only Balamb Junctioned GFs, as the reason Irvine remembered Edea from their childhood (and their childhood in general) is because he never Junctioned GFs as a part of his training, and didn't suffer the side effects of amnesia as a result of Junctioning GFs.

Edit: Holy smurf. Why.....

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Right. Whether he learned it or not, he didn't do so anywhere near as much as a Balamb Garden student would have, and so he remembered. Selphie forgot because she kept up, even in Trabia, her GF Training.


As for SeeDs, they're /all/ in Balamb, because the game states that all SeeDs are stationed in Balamb. In Galbadia Garden, you have the option of transferring to Balamb to become a SeeD, or enlisting in an army after graduation. It's in the information files, mostly.

[
Right. Whether he learned it or not, he didn't do so anywhere near as much as a Balamb Garden student would have, and so he remembered. Selphie forgot because she kept up, even in Trabia, her GF Training.


As for SeeDs, they're /all/ in Balamb, because the game states that all SeeDs are stationed in Balamb. In Galbadia Garden, you have the option of transferring to Balamb to become a SeeD, or enlisting in an army after graduation. It's in the information files, mostly.[/QUOTE]


Selphie stated that she junctioned with a GF wandering about in the field near Trabia. If you read the notes in the story, Balamb Garden is the only Garden that trains SeeDs in the use of GFs. Now, as I've seen the game play and know how Para-Magic is described and displayed, I assume that the Draw/Cast option is the only way that others can use magic in battle with being junctioned to a GF. It's the only way that makes sense to me because... Well, no one even KNOWS about a "Junction Machine" until they discover the mystery of Ellone.

For me the only logical means of anyone to use Para-Magic/Manipulate Ambient Energies (with out stocking) is to Draw and Cast because of the lack of a GF. And as for there are "NO" Trabia or Galbadian SeeDs... Selphie is a SeeD from Trabia, and Irvine is a SeeD from Galbadia... So there are SeeDs in those two Gardens. I mean, if their Gardens, why were there SeeDs there? They even said it in the game.

So, since only Balamb trains people in the usage of GFs- remember, Selphie was an special case- you propose that they only draw and cast, a process that requires the usage of a Junctioned GF.

So, you aren't actually offering a theory. In fact, you are offering the opposite of one, since you are blatantly contradicting what is a known element of the game, since as I mentioned already, Galbadian soldiers- and your party themselves- can hold stocked magic without the aid of GFs, and attempting to say that instead of having a machine which allows for limited emulation of GF ability, soldiers and human enemies can draw and cast magic 'somehow'.

Color me unconvinced.

And as I recall, no one was all that surprised at the existence of the a junction machine. Just that it emulated Ellone's powers.

And no. Selphie was not a Trabian SeeD. She became a SeeD after passing the test AT BALAMB. And Irvine was not a SeeD. Ever.

Pharoh your theory doesnt work because the only way for the party to do anything with magic they are required to have a GF junctioned if they do not the only battle command available is their normal attack. So if the highly trained SeeDs are unable to Draw/Cast magic without the aid of a GF i highly doubt that anybody in the world has the ability.

Also Selphie clearly states when you first meet her that she transfered the Balamb Garden to become a SeeD so no she is not a Trabia SeeD and others have said that there are no Gabaldia SeeDs either.

Odine said anyone can use Para-Magic. If junctioned with a GF they can use tremendous amounts of energies. Ya gotta stop look with your eyes. Open you mind. I mean, all you've done is thrash my theory and I haven't said anything to throw down your Junction machines, (:mad: there was only one that Odine 'claimed' to have 'possibly' created in the undisclosed future, which meant that there weren't any junction machines around at the time). Just read the classroom notes again. I spent a LOOOOOT of time reading them because a lot of the things the people in this story did just didn't make any sense. But the in-depth details of the world they were in kept me interested enough to finish it.

Galbadia Garden- Another movable shelter like Balamb Garden and started by Cid as well. The headmaster is Martine, who was ignominiously dumped when Edea took over and the Garden was made into her own headquarters. The Garden's very into sports, with a mean ice rink and tennis court. The SeeDs there use giant flying machines (very mech-like) for battle. Irvine was sent here for starters, but wasn't there long before he was commissioned to Squall. The Garden was sent to attack Balamb Garden in an epic battle which tested Squall's leadership skills to the max.

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Odine said anyone can use Para-Magic.

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If anyone can use Para magic, then why can the party not do it without GFs? I agree with Odine. Anyone can use para magic. But it does not follow from the given evidence that they can do so unnasisted.

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If junctioned with a GF they can use tremendous amounts of energies. Ya gotta stop look with your eyes. Open you mind. I mean, all you've done is thrash my theory and I haven't said anything to throw down your Junction machines, (:mad:

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I don't have to support a theory to point out the flaws in yours.

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there was only one that Odine 'claimed' to have 'possibly' created in the undisclosed future, which meant that there weren't any junction machines around at the time).

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No, there was a junction machine ELLONE that was currently just a toy. That does not preclude the existence of other junction machines. Heck, it logically requires them, since JME, even as a toy, must be an incredibly complex machine that would have to have technological antecedents on which it would need to be based.

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Just read the classroom notes again. I spent a LOOOOOT of time reading them because a lot of the things the people in this story did just didn't make any sense. But the in-depth details of the world they were in kept me interested enough to finish it.

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Galbadia Garden- Another movable shelter like Balamb Garden and started by Cid as well. The headmaster is Martine, who was ignominiously dumped when Edea took over and the Garden was made into her own headquarters. The Garden's very into sports, with a mean ice rink and tennis court. The SeeDs there use giant flying machines (very mech-like) for battle. Irvine was sent here for starters, but wasn't there long before he was commissioned to Squall. The Garden was sent to attack Balamb Garden in an epic battle which tested Squall's leadership skills to the max.

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THERE ARE NO SEEDS IN GALBADIA GARDEN! THE GALBADIAN MILITARY TOOK IT OVER! THOSE ARE GALBADIAN SOLDIERS USING GALBADIAN MILITARY TECHNOLOGY.

If anyone can use Para magic, then why can the party not do it without GFs? I agree with Odine. Anyone can use para magic. But it does not follow from the given evidence that they can do so unnasisted.

You gotta get outta the box Jack. The question is... HOW DO GALBADIAN SeeDs use Para-magic? For me... from my perspective... Since game stated that everyone can use it... And only Balamb SeeDs are officially trained and use GFs then I assumed that the NATURAL ability is... Draw and Cast whatever's there. But with a GF, you can store the energies and make your bonded SeeD stronger. Probably why there's the most expensive and reputed... I just shared my view I didn't say (insert VOICE OF GOD SOUND FX) THIS IS THE WAY IT IS!!!!

I mean, for me it make's a lot of sense of what I'm seeing on the screen other than... oh that's just part of the game. Which, you can draw and cast before you get a GF, right? I forgot... it's been awhile and... Forgive me, I sold my game... Don't hit me!

The fact that Galbadian SeeDs and Galbadian Soldiers, plus Odine's notes that everyone can use Para-Magic is just how I see it. You only see the main characters use magic because that's how the game was designed, going with that Balamb Garden SeeDs are TRAINED with GFs.

And if you'll remember the "Clash of the Garden's" battle.... You can see... SeeDs using Para-Magic... Without a Guardian Force.



I don't have to support a theory to point out the flaws in yours.

If you're gonna stand there and tell me my theory is no better than yours then yes! You DO!

Check yourself there Jackie... I never once put down or refuted any of your theories. YOU have been putting mine down since I got here. And if you are going to do that while I CAN support my theory... Then you're gonna HAVE TO find support before you step all of me and my own views. Alright? I'm just sharing how I see thing and not putting down anyone's theories. Check yourself... Don't start no $#!+ with me...

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there was only one that Odine 'claimed' to have 'possibly' created in the undisclosed future, which meant that there weren't any junction machines around at the time).

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No, there was a junction machine ELLONE that was currently just a toy. That does not preclude the existence of other junction machines. Heck, it logically requires them, since JME, even as a toy, must be an incredibly complex machine that would have to have technological antecedents on which it would need to be based.

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Just read the classroom notes again. I spent a LOOOOOT of time reading them because a lot of the things the people in this story did just didn't make any sense. But the in-depth details of the world they were in kept me interested enough to finish it.

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Galbadia Garden- Another movable shelter like Balamb Garden and started by Cid as well. The headmaster is Martine, who was ignominiously dumped when Edea took over and the Garden was made into her own headquarters. The Garden's very into sports, with a mean ice rink and tennis court. The SeeDs there use giant flying machines (very mech-like) for battle. Irvine was sent here for starters, but wasn't there long before he was commissioned to Squall. The Garden was sent to attack Balamb Garden in an epic battle which tested Squall's leadership skills to the max.

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THERE ARE NO SEEDS IN GALBADIA GARDEN! THE GALBADIAN MILITARY TOOK IT OVER! THOSE ARE GALBADIAN SOLDIERS USING GALBADIAN MILITARY TECHNOLOGY.[/QUOTE]

There were SeeDs in Galbadia Garden BEFORE Edea took over. And, again, if you read the story again, most Galbadian SeeDs immediately join the Galbadian Peacekeeping Forces after graduation instead of become freelancing mercenaries. It's in there. Take for example the two AWOL SeeDs found in Ellone's (Or was it Laguna's Wife's?) hometown.


Now, look, I don't know WTF is wrong with people like you... I make a single statement and y'all start yellin' at me and pissin' on me for no reason. Look back... I didn't put anything you say down, but you want me to agree with you. With your funky attitude... it ain't gon' happen Jack. Now let's get back to what we were talking about... aight?

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You gotta get outta the box Jack. The question is... HOW DO GALBADIAN SeeDs use Para-magic? For me... from my perspective... Since game stated that everyone can use it... And only Balamb SeeDs are officially trained and use GFs then I assumed that the NATURAL ability is... Draw and Cast whatever's there.

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Highly trained mercenaries cannot draw without GFs. Why should general military shmucks be able to unaided?

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But with a GF, you can store the energies and make your bonded SeeD stronger. Probably why there's the most expensive and reputed... I just shared my view I didn't say (insert VOICE OF GOD SOUND FX) THIS IS THE WAY IT IS!!!!

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If you state a theory, expect it to be dissected. Peer review is the way of science, and I endorse and participate fully.

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I mean, for me it make's a lot of sense of what I'm seeing on the screen other than... oh that's just part of the game. Which, you can draw and cast before you get a GF, right? I forgot... it's been awhile and... Forgive me, I sold my game... Don't hit me!

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No, you cannot. That's the critical error of your postulate.

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The fact that Galbadian SeeDs and Galbadian Soldiers, plus Odine's notes that everyone can use Para-Magic is just how I see it. You only see the main characters use magic because that's how the game was designed, going with that Balamb Garden SeeDs are TRAINED with GFs.

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Except we do see other people, like Galbadian and Estharian soldiers, using STOCKED magic in battle.

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And if you'll remember the "Clash of the Garden's" battle.... You can see... SeeDs using Para-Magic... Without a Guardian Force.

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Are they? Balamb students- who AREN'T NECESSARILY SeeDS- are trained with GFs.

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If you're gonna stand there and tell me my theory is no better than yours then yes! You DO!

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really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.. I'M NOT. I'm not supporting any theory of my own, and I only support Qurange's in that it seems to fit. YOUR theory, meanwhile, is in disgreement with the game.

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Check yourself there Jackie... I never once put down or refuted any of your theories.

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Red Herring! My theories are not the issue here. YOUR theory IS!

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YOU have been putting mine down since I got here. And if you are going to do that while I CAN support my theory... Then you're gonna HAVE TO find support before you step all of me and my own views. Alright? I'm just sharing how I see thing and not putting down anyone's theories. Check yourself... Don't start no $#!+ with me...

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I see a flaw in a theory, I illuminate it. You'll note I corrected Qurange as well.
And no, I have no need to find support to highlight the flaws in your postulate.
And if this counts as [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] being started, well, bring it. I love a good debate, and I don't like to go too long without a chewtoy.

Concession accepted on the JME.

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There were SeeDs in Galbadia Garden BEFORE Edea took over. And, again, if you read the story again, most Galbadian SeeDs immediately join the Galbadian Peacekeeping Forces after graduation instead of become freelancing mercenaries. It's in there. Take for example the two AWOL SeeDs found in Ellone's (Or was it Laguna's Wife's?) hometown.

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You mean the AWOL Garden students? Attending Garden does not automatically a SeeD make. Seifer was never a Seed. Trabia and Galbadia did not make SeeDs, only SeeD candidates.

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Now, look, I don't know WTF is wrong with people like you... I make a single statement and y'all start yellin' at me and pissin' on me for no reason. Look back... I didn't put anything you say down, but you want me to agree with you. With your funky attitude... it ain't gon' happen Jack. Now let's get back to what we were talking about... aight?

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If you can't stand the heat, don't jump in the oven. When you state a postulate, it it is wrong, I will tell you. If you commit a logical fallacy, I will tell you. If you continue to do so, I will become brutal.

And we haven't actually strayed from the topic any more than you took it off.

Y'know I'm not gonna do this... It's really just a waste of my time to argue with you.

Now I'm just stating a view just like yours. I let you post yours and get your support, not knock them down.

You and others, for some reason seem to be adamant on breaking down any other belief that doesn't fit your own... What're you people Christians?

Anyway... This is just the way I see on screen and I've had others that totally understand, I didn't say agree, what my theory is. And yes, a lot did agree with me. Because it was visually represented on the screen.

To me, Para-Magic is a natural thing and didn't require JMEs... Because even the Monsters had the natural ability to use Para-Magic.

The Cocktrice, would actuallly stun it's enemies with a powerful electrical charge, rendering their nervous system inert; while at the same time, that charge created a static attraction to the surrounding dust particles giving the "stoned" appearance.

See, I thought we were all just giving our pseudo-sci-fi theories and just that. Not knocking each other down. That's why I always write my posts in these discussions as if I'm talking from in the game. Others, still talk from the perspective of the end of a controller.

This is where I perspectives differ. I see your end, but you don't see mine. Outta the box, not in it. Inside looking out or outside looking in?
Same book, but different pages; no I think it's more of same topic but different authored books. Hunting season, but is it Duck Season or Rabbit Season?

Now what I'm gonna do is post my ideas and that's that. Peace.

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Y'know I'm not gonna do this... It's really just a waste of my time to argue with you.

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I agree. It is a waste of time to get into an argument with me. I tend to win.

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Now I'm just stating a view just like yours. I let you post yours and get your support, not knock them down.

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Claiming it is simply a point of view is not enough to save any theory from peer review.

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You and others, for some reason seem to be adamant on breaking down any other belief that doesn't fit your own... What're you people Christians?

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Heck no. I'm adamant on breaking down any belief which does not fit the facts. That includes a lot of the BS involved in religions.

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Anyway... This is just the way I see on screen and I've had others that totally understand, I didn't say agree, what my theory is. And yes, a lot did agree with me. Because it was visually represented on the screen.

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Ad populum. Even if a million people agree, a million people can be wrong. What matters is if your theory fits the facts.

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To me, Para-Magic is a natural thing and didn't require JMEs... Because even the Monsters had the natural ability to use Para-Magic.

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Red Herring. Your party cannot use para magic unassisted. What monsters can do is irrelevant to what humans can do.

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The Cocktrice, would actuallly stun it's enemies with a powerful electrical charge, rendering their nervous system inert; while at the same time, that charge created a static attraction to the surrounding dust particles giving the "stoned" appearance.

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Comes out of nowhere.

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See, I thought we were all just giving our pseudo-sci-fi theories and just that. Not knocking each other down. That's why I always write my posts in these discussions as if I'm talking from in the game. Others, still talk from the perspective of the end of a controller.

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You speak like that's a bad thing.

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This is where I perspectives differ. I see your end, but you don't see mine. Outta the box, not in it. Inside looking out or outside looking in?
Same book, but different pages; no I think it's more of same topic but different authored books. Hunting season, but is it Duck Season or Rabbit Season?

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Hunter Season. And I do see your end. That's why I see the flaws in your argument. Don't take it personally.

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Now what I'm gonna do is post my ideas and that's that. Peace.

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And what I'm gonna do is continue to point out errors in the theories of you and others.

Dude... Chill out. It's a game. A Fantasy game. Neither one of us can claim to be "right" or "wrong"... That's I'm saying. I'm only posting my "theories" or "theoretical views". I'm not looking to knock off anyone else.

I mean, why are YOU so adamant of knocking anyone else's view/theories/whatever if it doesn't agree with yours. I've heard people theories on this subject before and some I didn't find plausiable and others I did... Either way, I never called any of them wrong or my own right...

You can't just call people 'wrong'... It's no longer a 'debate' anymore... It's a mud-slinging fest.

But you wanna make yourself "God", go ahead... Knock yourself out. I wouldn't want to detain your magnificence any longer...

And by the way...

"Heck no. I'm adamant on breaking down any belief which does not fit the facts."

Or anything that doesn't agree with your research. Dude,... It's fantasy. I thought this discussion would be handled like a "Star Trek/Star Wars Pseudo-Science" discussion. Apparently not. Neither one of us is right or wrong.

"Comes out of nowhere."

Hell, you 'pulled' JME out of nowhere. And I wrote Cocktrice bit YEARS ago on these very forums and yes... It met with the same adamant unprovoked resistance as now. I started posting and some like it and asked for more and then people kept bitchin' about what I was writing. It was just for fun. I still don't know why they got pissed... Just like you... Ah well...

"You speak like that's a bad thing."

No, but you speak like MY ideas are a bad thing. Like I'll start an evil corruptive view of a faith. I understand your POV, but you totally diss mine. And anyone else's for that matter. Aight, so I don't believe your theory of JME... You go ape-spit and I just shrug. You start spittin' on me and I kick your ass... Er... sorry. Let's not go there... We're civilized people right?


"Hunter Season. And I do see your end. That's why I see the flaws in your argument. Don't take it personally."

Their not "flaws"... Their just discrepencies with your own view of things. Like I have discrpencies with the JME, but I haven't said "no".


"And what I'm gonna do is continue to point out errors in the theories of you and others."

Dude, if you wrote the story or had any part in the development of the game... Then you might be in position to do so... But... You're not. :p
You might as well stop acting like you're GOD or something... Oooh! Maybe the Sorceress Power was transferred unto you... Beware the Mighty Sorceress/Sorceror...Ryushikaze. Hey, that sounds kinda cool...
So... Anyone else got another theory or perspective of Para-Magic? I do...

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Dude... Chill out. It's a game. A Fantasy game. Neither one of us can claim to be "right" or "wrong"... That's I'm saying. I'm only posting my "theories" or "theoretical views". I'm not looking to knock off anyone else.

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Actually, there is such a thing as 'more right' and 'less right', even in a fantasy game. And if your postulate does not fit in with what is known about the game, it is 'less right' than one that does.

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I mean, why are YOU so adamant of knocking anyone else's view/theories/whatever if it doesn't agree with yours. I've heard people theories on this subject before and some I didn't find plausiable and others I did... Either way, I never called any of them wrong or my own right...

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If a theory does not fit the facts, then it needs to be corrected. Your theory does not fit the facts.

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You can't just call people 'wrong'... It's no longer a 'debate' anymore... It's a mud-slinging fest.

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You can call people wrong in a debate.
Of course, you act like mud slinging and debating are mutually exclusive. As long as you're not making ad homs, you can sling as much mud as you like if your argument is valid.

[quote]But you wanna make yourself "God", go ahead... Knock yourself out. I wouldn't want to detain your magnificence any longer...

Bah. Godhood is overrated.

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Or anything that doesn't agree with your research. Dude,... It's fantasy. I thought this discussion would be handled like a "Star Trek/Star Wars Pseudo-Science" discussion. Apparently not. Neither one of us is right or wrong.

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This IS being handled like a Trek/Wars discussion. Look into a little place called Stardestroyer.net

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Hell, you 'pulled' JME out of nowhere.

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No. It at least has empirical in game support from when Doc Odine was discussing it.

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And I wrote Cocktrice bit YEARS ago on these very forums and yes... It met with the same adamant unprovoked resistance as now. I started posting and some like it and asked for more and then people kept bitchin' about what I was writing. It was just for fun. I still don't know why they got pissed... Just like you... Ah well...

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Well, for one, you stated a theory. You provided jack all for support for it. People who like to treat this like actual science is treated- yes, they still do it for fun- like for points to be supported, preferrably with abundant evidence. They may also have disliked it because it is inconsistent with other methods of being stoned which exist within the game.
And trust me. I'm not pissed.

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No, but you speak like MY ideas are a bad thing. Like I'll start an evil corruptive view of a faith. I understand your POV, but you totally diss mine. And anyone else's for that matter. Aight, so I don't believe your theory of JME... You go ape-spit and I just shrug. You start spittin' on me and I kick your ass... Er... sorry. Let's not go there... We're civilized people right?

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I did not go ape[img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] over JME, and I'm curious what led you to that conclusion. The only thing resembling ape[img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] in this thread was when I got irritated with you over the SeeD issue, but that's because you refused to listen after being told numerous times that SeeDs are only located at Balamb.

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Their not "flaws"... Their just discrepencies with your own view of things. Like I have discrpencies with the JME, but I haven't said "no".

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They are discrepancies with the game itself. They are flaws.
And if you think there are discrepancies with JME, say what they are.

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Dude, if you wrote the story or had any part in the development of the game... Then you might be in position to do so... But... You're not. :p

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I don't have to have written the game to look at it, look at your theory, and point out the discrepancies between them. Now if you think there are issues with what I say, feel free to address them. But please, support your position.

Before I start, I would like to let everyone know that it has been a long time since I played the game so I apologize and concede about Balamb Garden is where SeeDs are trained/graduated. I think I understand now... Understand I'm proving anything, I'm just sharing what I believe because it made it more fun as I drudged through this game... Making feel a 'part' of it, y'know? Kinda like sharing my summer vacation through story because you weren't there.

I believe that Para-Magic is the manipulation of various ambient energies. Just like scientists, SeeDs study the molecular make up of these energies and use them to various effects such as 1 part Oxygen and 2 parts Hydrogen make up water which both are ambient even within our own world. Just like the X-Man "Iceman" can not make ice without moisture and fellow X-Man "Storm" manipulates weather she can not create weather and must have suffient elements for the desired effects.

I believe this works also with the SeeDs. Fire, is basically the heat air, which can be made by friction and feed off ambient air. Hence the brief plume of fire.

I also believe that SeeDs are highly trained telepaths and telekinetics. Hence Protect, and Float for example involves telekenisis; while Quake, Shell involve telepathy.

I believe that Para-Magic is an natural ability among all characters of FFVIII. For me this explains the use of Para-Magic by Rinoa, Irvine, Galbadian Soldiers, and Monsters.

I think that the Draw/Cast method is how Para-Magic works with non-junctioned beings because some enemies do draw from the player characters (PC), if I remember correctly.

All I'm saying is I got my views and can back them or not same as you. You can't back up the JME theory no more than I can the Draw/Cast.

So that's it... That's why believe. And I'm not going to refute the JME theory... Theoretically, it would be endlessly pointless.

Thank you and good night.

Well, yes, they can, if they use evidence from the game. It's pretty simple, really.

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Originally Posted by Zeromus_X

Well, yes, they can, if they use evidence from the game. It's pretty simple, really.

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I do too.

Aight lemme put it like this... When you're fighting you have the option to draw, stock, and cast.

If you choose an enemy and you'll see there are a number of spells you can either draw, stock, or immediately Cast at that enemy...

That's how I see the Galbadian Soldier side of the battle. Their just casting whatever they can on from the SeeDs and ambient energies... That's it. Now, I know this has as much support as the JME, but just sharing a viewpoint.

And if you do not have a GF junctioned, you cannot draw, cast, or do anything other than attack. None of your party. Not the SeeDs, not Irvine, not Rinoa, not Seifer not Edea, not Laguna, Kiros, or Ward, can draw magic without the aid of a GF.

Those last three are former Galbadian soldiers. They lack the ability to draw-cast unaided. Since we see that later galbadians can cast magic, know that they do not have Gardian Forces, and that some of the highest trained mercenaries on the planet do not know how to draw magic without external aid, it does not follow that regular military worldwide know a method that has somehow eluded these highly trained mercs.

Addendum: Saw this in the 'logical' thread and wished to address it.

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I mean, I remember talking about FFVII's formerly mysterious aftermath and I mentioned that there were still clones wondering about and people shot me down for that... So I just shut up. I opted to just discuss it, not prove anything... Guess who was right the whole time? Sorry, I had to gloat on that one....

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Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz, are not clones. They are Shinentai. Will made form. Sephiroth's, specifically.

Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz, are not clones. They are Shinentai. Will made form. Sephiroth's, specifically.[/QUOTE]

AKA: Clones of a spefice Mentai.

thats not the same thing as the origional clones. so you were actually wrong in saying there were still clones walking around. but that is off topic and doesnt belong in the FF8 section anyway. Besides why did you talk about that but comepletly ignore the evidence against your theory, which is what this thread is about?

Why do I have to keep explaining this over and over and it's just like the JME? It's all boiled down to a matter of perspective now you're not going to understand because you don't see it or want to see it.


Odine's notes say that ANYONE can use Para-Magic. On that much we're agreed.

Now we're just speculating on the techniques involved of using Para-Magic.

And to do that, we're going to have think outside the box. The JME theory has no more 'evidence' in the game as my 'Cast' theory.

I based my ideas on my interpetation of Odine's Notes and what was happening during battles; even during the "Clash of The Gardens" what I interpeted was shown, and my friends and I are like WOW.

For me and a lot of other people that works. For other the JME theory. I don't care. Go with what you want. I could crack your theory just as much as you would mine. But their's no definitive description of the technique of Para-Magic.

Some friends of mine I told this 'theory' to years ago when FFVIII first came out like it and it made the more 'connected'. They've read the reactions to my posts and they all feel that the reason I'm getting grief is because I've taken you outside your box. Suddenly Jesus isn't the savior you thought he was.

Hey, there is a God, I just don't believe the same way everyone else does and that pisses them off... A LOT!


You believe in the JME all you want and I'm not gonna refute it. I CHOOSE not to. You don't. I CAN, but I WON'T. It's POINTLESS.

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Why do I have to keep explaining this over and over and it's just like the JME? It's all boiled down to a matter of perspective now you're not going to understand because you don't see it or want to see it.

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When I hear this word, a light goes off. That light says 'you cannot defend a theory by calling it perspective or opinion'

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And to do that, we're going to have think outside the box. The JME theory has no more 'evidence' in the game as my 'Cast' theory.

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JME is known to exist. Odine states that it is a toy, but it exists. As a machine capable of artificially junctioning the powers of a person to another, it must be an incredibly complex machine. Such machines, logically, have antecedents. GF emulation junction machines, of limited power but easy mass production, are a common sense antecedent for this machine.

Meanwhile, your 'cast' theory has issue because those few people we do know the specific junction status of- namely, the party itself- cannot actually draw and then cast without the aid of GFs.

The 'junction machine' theory, is a more parsimonious theory, since it involves a much simpler form of a technology known to exist, instead of invoking a heretofore unseen, unexplained methodology that has somehow escaped the knowledge of an organization specifically designed to combat natural magic users.

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I based my ideas on my interpetation of Odine's Notes and what was happening during battles; even during the "Clash of The Gardens" what I interpeted was shown, and my friends and I are like WOW.

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An appeal to a limited popularity. Of course, I'm curious how clash of the gardens actually shows what you claim it to, since no one is seen drawing, and GFs do not appear when magic is cast anyways.

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For me and a lot of other people that works. For other the JME theory. I don't care. Go with what you want. I could crack your theory just as much as you would mine. But their's no definitive description of the technique of Para-Magic.

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Again, appeal to popularity. Now, as I've said before many times elsewhere, if you find a flaw in the Junction Machine theory, please, if you would, explain what that flaw is, and show specific examples against it.

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Some friends of mine I told this 'theory' to years ago when FFVIII first came out like it and it made the more 'connected'. They've read the reactions to my posts and they all feel that the reason I'm getting grief is because I've taken you outside your box. Suddenly Jesus isn't the savior you thought he was.

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Red Herring, appeal to popularity, appeal to motives, etc. The reason you are getting grief is not because you've 'taken us outside our box', it's because you're trying to pretend your non-parsimonious postulate has as much validity as a postulate based on existing technology.

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Hey, there is a God, I just don't believe the same way everyone else does and that pisses them off... A LOT!

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All gods suffer the burden of proof. None of them fill it.

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You believe in the JME all you want and I'm not gonna refute it. I CHOOSE not to. You don't. I CAN, but I WON'T. It's POINTLESS.

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"Yeah, I could totally hack your computer, but I'm NOT!"
If I had a dollar for every time someone said they could totally destroy my theory, but wasn't going to, or otherwise tried to dismiss my theory without addressing it, I would be a very very rich man.

I had written an exstinsive response to your post but it was lost in translation during the site update... So I just decided...

It's whatever [leeza]*snip*[/leeza]. Whatever.:rolleyes2

[leeza]This is a warning. Do not use derogartory words on this forum. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

What's that? Someone just made an excuse for their lack of a rebuttal instead of having one? What a shock.

Balamb is the only garden to use GFs? Maybe not...

Selphie in the orphanage explains that her memory loss is due to the fact that when she was studying in Trabia Garden to become a SeeD she found a GF on a field excercise one day and equipped it however she could not remember the name of the GF or what it did.

SeeDs can only graduate from Balamb Garden as far as I remember this was stated in the game not in a guide somewhere but right at the begining of Disc 1 when you look closely you see I'm right and if I am wrong it is because Gabaldia also offer the exam to candidates. Many Gabaldian Soldiers are former SeeD candidates who either had to leave due to mis-behaviour or SeeDs who at the age of 21 were made to leave the force. A SeeD must Graduate before the age of 17 (I think) and serves as a SeeD only until they turn 21 at which point unless they are an instructor they are retired. 21 and retired and most of your knowledge is combat stuff? Where do you go? Esthar is hidden away and had been untill Squall found it again for 17 years. Timber is annexed by Gabaldia and yet full of liberation fighters, say 10% go there and join the fight. Dollet is a Dukedom, probably a bit starchy towards the former SeeD candidates/members who wish to join them but with Gabaldia on their backs every now and again I don't see them turning away the help, another 25% there shall we say? Now lets say 5 - 10% go to FH and become Technicians or become mercanaries of their own merits. That leaves an impressive 55 - 60% of candidates or former SeeDs without work, where better to go than the Gabaldian army where you can be paid regulary and have plenty of work. Now I am getting off topic here but in the game it does state that there are suspicions of Martine (Gabaldia Garden Headmaster) having underhand deals with the Gabaldian Authorities as to what happens to the failed or too old Candidates for SeeD.

So with most of the worlds military force being provided by the three Gardens it's easy to understand that they might have some experience in Magic. (I Excuse Esthar because after 17 years of isolation any one who was from a Garden would have been retired from active duty and they have Doc Odine hence JMs) Also with Selphie stating she found a GF that she Junctioned for several years yet has no memories of what it was called ect. is it not possible that GFs are actually much more common than most people suspect? Just because we gather a select few doesn't mean that there aren't others out there how else would SeeD which is a massive military force allow it's members to use GFs let alone assign candidates them. Xu during the Dollet Mission offers both Squads A and B a reminder to equip their GF's Meaning that both squads carried them.

Also Junction Machines (JMs) are a possibility, they're certainly what the Estharians are using to use magic and definitely due to the huge size of the Gabaldian Army them too. GFs aren't used by other armies in the world apart from SeeD as they have negative side effects such as the memory loss. As for the Junction Machine and how it functions I believe it to be a simple matter of the Spells being Programmed in to it, not drawn or created programmed since they are a computer essentially why not? They simply then copy and release the spell desired by the soldier probably by voice activation or a button push (certainly the pose struck when casting leads me to believe in voice activation also it would certainly stop the enemy from picking it off the dead and using it against you too if registered for that soldiers voice. In the Dream sequences Laguna, Kiros and Ward all use your GFs (especially if you bother to junction them) which leads me to think that maybe they could have been using the machines or had experience in using the GFs before.

When a person dies the GF junctioned to them wouldn't die it would simply be left to roam where the last bearer died or return to a speciffic point.

Where are the JMEs? How do they tote something like that around? And Odine hasn't invented it yet, if ever. Ellone simply has a natural talent.

I just don't see it. How does this work?

I wrote a 'rebuttal' you jerk. It got deleted during the maintenance hour of the site. It was too long to write over again, so that's that...

I don't see why Odine couldn't have invented Junction Machines aside from the JME--if anything, the name 'Junction Machine Ellone' implies that it's a specific /type/ of Junction Machine. As to how they carry them, there's nothing that says that they couldn't be backpack-sized or smaller. Look at both groups we see using them--isn't there space on that armor for something to be placed? To me, this makes more sense, given the way that magic is used in FF8. It wouldn't make any tactical sense to have to draw to cast every time, because the ambient energies used to power the spells aren't the same everywhere. It's a better idea to draw them into the machine and then draw them out, and given that Junctioning technology has clearly been around long enough to gain accepted use (and even variation, such as the Anti-magic fields), I see no reason for it to be impossible. If anything, I think Draw/Casting is probably a more advanced ability than Stocking and then Casting, because it's all done at once. As far as I can tell, all magic except for Sorceress magic requires an aid of some sort; people can't naturally use it, except in very specific ways, such as Blue Magic, which likely took years of training for Quistis to develop.

I think that the closest magic comes in FF8 to your theory, Pharoh, is Selphie's limit break, which may well be just drawing in the ambient energy around her and randomly shaping it. Even then, Selphie has naturally high magical potential. So.

Also, Pharoh, the theory was mine, not Ryushikaze's, so please don't be too hard on him.

The thing is I don't remember seeing this Junction Technology or the JME... And you gotta admit it was mentioned with fabrication... Like it was a red herring or not even solid. I'm not saying that it can't happen, I just didn't see anything the resembled JMT (Junction Machine Tech).

Ok Pharoh you say that anyone in the FF 8 world can draw/cast without a GF but the main characters of the game are unable to do so without the aid of a GF so that must mean your theory is wrong.

Apparently it is possible to cast without a GF because the Galbadian and monsters can do so as well. We just have different views on how this is done. I see the natural ability to do as in previous Final Fantasies. Also Odine's Notes' state that by junctioning with a GF, a person can use further, tremendous amounts of energy. Meaning that manipulation of energy is possible without a GF, but with a GF... oooh, you're Samuel L. Jackson. Hmm... Samuel L. Jackson as a SeeD... I smell fan-fic... You Damn, right.

And using magic only with a GF is only looking at this from the control pad end of things. I'm looking at as if I were "Captain N", so to speak. I mean if we're going to look at from semantics like that then why is it that Seifer, who never was a SeeD is able to use Para-Magics in the opening sequence and even after he left Balamb Garden?

I believe people can use Para-magic, they merely have to have training. I believe that people use the lowest level of Para-Magics (like Fire, Water, or Ice) for conventional purposes as people used marketed Materia in everyday tasks of life, provided they have required energies in ample quantities. SeeDs and Soldiers are trained to use higher levels; or as high as possible to achieve without using a GF. Kinda like you were a boy scout but you're in the army now...

I believe that you're getting the JME theory from Materia being placed in Materia Slots in weapons; FFVII was your first, one, right? That's great, it's a great theory but I'm just not inclined to agree with it totally. Maybe it's both ways...

I also believe that a fair amount of the Para-Magic "spells" are merely offensive/ defensive telepathic illusions while others are physical manipulations of energy.

I really wish you would understand that no one can be 'right' or 'wrong' because my 'cast' 'theory' holds just as much water as any other. The glass is not full; heck it ain't even half empty either. It can't be officially 'proven' or offically intergrated as part of the game. We're basically doing a 'fan-fic' with this discussion. We may as well be asking how can the main characters survive gun shot wounds but killed by a Bite Bug? See what I mean?

So I'm not 'wrong' because you could be 'wrong' as well. Let's move on from this "Believe what I tell you or I'll hurt" mentallity.

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Apparently it is possible to cast without a GF because the Galbadian and monsters can do so as well.

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Red herring. Twice. What monsters can do is irrelevant to what humans can do.
And we are not arguing that is is impossible to cast without a GF. We are arguing that for normal humans, paramagic is not possible WITHOUT ASSISTANCE.

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We just have different views on how this is done. I see the natural ability to do as in previous Final Fantasies.

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You mean like in FF6, where they needed the assistance of Espers to learn magic, or in FF7, where Materia was the conduit for magic?

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Also Odine's Notes' state that by junctioning with a GF, a person can use further, tremendous amounts of energy. Meaning that manipulation of energy is possible without a GF, but with a GF... oooh, you're Samuel L. Jackson. Hmm... Samuel L. Jackson as a SeeD... I smell fan-fic... You Damn, right.

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I find you very interesting. At one point, you denounce the words of Odine, the man who said JME exists, but now you are twisting his words to support your ideas.
Besides, did it not occur to you that he meant the GFs power itself, the stat junctioning, or other GF related abilities?

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And using magic only with a GF is only looking at this from the control pad end of things. I'm looking at as if I were "Captain N", so to speak. I mean if we're going to look at from semantics like that then why is it that Seifer, who never was a SeeD is able to use Para-Magics in the opening sequence and even after he left Balamb Garden?

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Squall had a GF before he was a SeeD. Seifer could have had one junctioned as well, and since Squall says Seifer cheated, it's likely he had one equipped and used it to cast the fire spell in the op.

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I believe people can use Para-magic, they merely have to have training. I believe that people use the lowest level of Para-Magics (like Fire, Water, or Ice) for conventional purposes as people used marketed Materia in everyday tasks of life, provided they have required energies in ample quantities. SeeDs and Soldiers are trained to use higher levels; or as high as possible to achieve without using a GF. Kinda like you were a boy scout but you're in the army now...

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If they were trained as such, one would expect the SeeDs we have to be able to use Para Magic despite junction status. They cannot.

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I believe that you're getting the JME theory from Materia being placed in Materia Slots in weapons; FFVII was your first, one, right? That's great, it's a great theory but I'm just not inclined to agree with it totally. Maybe it's both ways...

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Maybe we're getting the idea of a Junction machine from the available evidence that such machines exist, and that the party cannot use any paramagic sans GF.

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I also believe that a fair amount of the Para-Magic "spells" are merely offensive/ defensive telepathic illusions while others are physical manipulations of energy.

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Parsimony, it is violated.

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I really wish you would understand that no one can be 'right' or 'wrong' because my 'cast' 'theory' holds just as much water as any other. The glass is not full; heck it ain't even half empty either. It can't be officially 'proven' or offically intergrated as part of the game. We're basically doing a 'fan-fic' with this discussion. We may as well be asking how can the main characters survive gun shot wounds but killed by a Bite Bug? See what I mean?

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If our theory fits better with established facts with fewer additional terms, it is by default better.

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So I'm not 'wrong' because you could be 'wrong' as well. Let's move on from this "Believe what I tell you or I'll hurt" mentallity.

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You are wrong because you disagree with the game, not to mention your violations of parsimony.

Dude... WTF is wrong with you? Why are you adamant of breaking down dismissing ANY view of Para-Magic Mechanics other than your own? If someone were to say that Para-Magic is excess of the Sorceress Power since there is always a Sorceress even till the time of Ultimecia; Even after Ultimecia's defeat Rinoa is still a Sorceress and if she is not to become Ultimecia, then there will be a succession of witches after her until Ultimecia is born, killed, and looped back to Edea... But now let's get back to you and your "Elite Theorists"... LOL:rolleyes2

"Red herring. Twice. What monsters can do is irrelevant to what humans can do."

How is that irrelevent? That gives examples that organisms can use Para-Magic by nature.

"And we are not arguing that is is impossible to cast without a GF. We are arguing that for normal humans, paramagic is not possible WITHOUT ASSISTANCE."

First off, let's not argue. It's not necessary. I state my view, you state your's, everyone states their's and maybe we can put it all together. I never dismissed the JME, I just didn't understand it. After your posts I imagine that you're linking it to Materia. Which is not a bad way to see it. I don't understand why is it so 'wrong' that I think it's a dormant ability used by all, but requires training.

"You mean like in FF6, where they needed the assistance of Espers to learn magic, or in FF7, where Materia was the conduit for magic?"

Yes, and those infused with Magitek were able to use magic as well. But before hand the Magi were able to use Magics and then they found the awesome power of the Espers.

"I find you very interesting. At one point, you denounce the words of Odine, the man who said JME exists, but now you are twisting his words to support your ideas."

And I find you very petty. :p Chill out man. I did not denounce Odine's words... I just said that he was speaking out of hyperbole (much like you) about a machine that he hadn't invented yet; much like you're denouncing any ideals other than your own until it's concedede that your "theory" and ONLY your "theory" is "fact" in a FANTASY... wait for this one... GAME!!!
Have a coke and a smile dude, or snort some, whatever it takes for you to not take this so damn seriously.

"Besides, did it not occur to you that he meant the GFs power itself, the stat junctioning, or other GF related abilities?"

....:cry: It's almost enough to make me cry... Are you listening to yourself? How do YOU know what Odine meant more than I do? Look back at your statement. Now I hope you know I'm just mirroring you right now. If you don't understand keep reading.

"Squall had a GF before he was a SeeD. Seifer could have had one junctioned as well, and since Squall says Seifer cheated, it's likely he had one equipped and used it to cast the fire spell in the op."

I guess you know this because you were there. Now I know what you're going to say... But wait. I'll say it for you. Squall was assigned as we see from his desk computer. But he wasn't junctioned to it as far we, as you would say: see in the game. And yes, Seifer could have been junctioned to a GF as you say, but again... You said could.... Which is... what's that big word you love to use... oh, "Postulate".

Do you see what I'm saying to you now? You're just being petty and attacking my views because you want to be right when you never can be... Neither one of can. I don't want to argue over 'facts' when there can be none... You're trying to base 'facts' of what you see on "FANTASY"... There are NO FACTS. STOP TEARING APART EVERYONE'S ELSE'S views or interpetations on an underdeveloped aspect of the story. It's like Star Wars... Lucas created it. For years fans made endless theories of how the "Force" works. And then after 20 years Lucas comes up with "Medicholorians" and all these "expert fans" nearly threw up at the idea. I didn't really buy into it either, but I just shrugged... It's HIS creation, do what he want with it, who are we to say? We are not the creators so all we can do is have fun and make up our own fantasies or 'theories/conclusions' to our hearts desire.

"If they were trained as such, one would expect the SeeDs we have to be able to use Para Magic despite junction status. They cannot."

And... you know this because... uh... YOU were a SeeD. You were there. You took all the classes so you KNOW EXACTLY how to use Para-Magic, right? It's Fantasy, and you're looking at it from the 'gameplay' aspect. One sided view and I'm looking at from both sides. The enemies can use Para-Magic and Balamb is the only one that experiments with GFs, which are apparently not necessary to use Para-Magic.

(sigh):rolleyes2 Again, this is open to speculation. Monsters use Para-Magic, Soldiers use Para-Magic, ect, ect. No conclusive results except that Para-Magic exists and a lotta people can use it. Even without Junctioning to a GF. If you wanna 'postulate' on that, if I were Irvine or Selphie and I just joined up with the SeeDs... You think I'm gonna go into battle without the awesomeness of a GF? Or maybe SeeDs are trained to use a GF and they've just become accustomed to using Para-Magic only when junctions because of the huge amount of 'stocked' energy at their disposal instead of being at the disadvantage like their enemies that fall at the might of the All Powerful SeeD! (Was that a little over the top?) Do you see how I'm doing to you what you've been doing to me and others?

This fits right there with your 'could' about Seifer. And the JME, and "what Odine meant"... It's FANTASY... It's a GAME... THERE ARE NO FACTS...

"Maybe we're getting the idea of a Junction machine from the available evidence that such machines exist, and that the party cannot use any paramagic sans GF."

Pfft!... JME's do not exist... yet, because Odine hasn't invented one yet. He's studying Ellone's... 'gift' but has yet to make one. Also, you're only looking at "The Party", but everyone, scratch that, everyTHING else can... I see it natural, you see it other wise. Some see it as Hyne's Power or the presence of the Sorceress Power.

"Parsimony, it is violated."

See there you go again. Like you're God and just blatantly attacking whatever I say. Not 'defending' your 'theory'. This is where I see you as just being plan petty... It's sad. No one's right, and no one's wrong. But you can't accept that. You keep pulling things outta the air, out of frame, your @$$ or wherever you can to knock down, attack, and only support your 'theory' when you're 'postulating' just as much as any of the 'postulates' that don't agree to what you believe, oh, I mean theorize with Theories Of Fantasy. You're trying to put yourself up there like you're God and "Violate" anything. And you said it like you were The God. "Parsimony/Blasphemy, it is violated." Insert booming voice, thunder and lightening, ect, ect. FX). LOL:p

And puh-lease... Stop using huge thesaurical words. We all already know how omnipotent your knowledge is of fantasy... :laughing: And don't even bother trying to insult my intelligence. I would see that coming and that would just make you look even more petty. Do you see how me insulting you directly like do me and others works? Yeah. It's predictable... and pathetic, isn't it? But apparently, I have to get down nearly to your level... BTW: You wanna pony? While you're down there I can make you a little 'horse'. Oh, I am sooooo evil... I'm sorry. Blame that one on the Icehouse...

"If our theory fits better with established facts with fewer additional terms, it is by default better."

You sound like Viator: "Then the creators are wrong!" And You/We are NOT the creators.

As I've already said... There are no facts in fantasy. Stop trying to make yourself/selves the writers. Stick the fan-fiction. That's why started writing these 'theories' of mine a long time ago... It was suppose to be part of a fan-fic called "Diary Of A SeeD". Posted in the story forum years ago, but never finished... Under FAN-FICTION, emphasis on the FICTION.... You no 'facts' no more than the other person... only perspectives. Because that's all any of us can really do in this GAME... PERCIEVE. Play and percieve. The only 'default' are the character's names and the story.

"You are wrong because you disagree with the game, not to mention your violations of parsimony."

Now there you go again using that big mouthed brain full of vocabulary again to announce like you're God again... And didn't you just commit parsimony with that very statement? Uh-huh... I thought so...
My personal opinions of the game have NOTHING to with this. I may not like the game's story, but I did enjoy the fantasy aspect. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered to come up with these views on Para-Magic. Heck, I wanted this to be 'good' discussion and get more perspectives. I like the JME idea... I just didn't share the viewpoint. And I can live with that...

AAAAAND with that.... I told you... stop hittin' the table! (aka, I told you, don't start no $#!+ with me!)
Hey, I love that song, and Chappelle, what can I say?

Now, as tradition serves... I think now is when the MODS will close this thread. Mostly after I've finally busted a cap. And it's well that they do... I wanted this to be peaceful and not get into a MINE IS BETTER THAN YOURS deal.

Now to the Mods. Please, PLEASE do not 'ban' me. I did not start the slugging. Read back and understand that I tried to reciprecate and move along. I even warned him and if you are the MODs of Old... you know I could get. Let's end this... Or not. Something like this will more than likely pop up again... And I'll be there.

Good night, and Good Journey. (Yeah, I'm a MOTU Fan):D

You know, if you can't take it that others argue logically against your theory because they think it's not really valid, then you probably shouldn't have started participating in a logical debate anyway. You can't just go "I think [theory] because [arguments]" and then flip out when someone actually tries arguing against you...

In my earlier post I was not saying that it was impossible to cast magic without the aid of a GF, there could be other ways like the JM, I was saying that it is not an inate ability of the people in the FF 8 world. If it were possible to cast magic without a GF or some other aid then the main characters would be able to.

Also the inate ability of monsters to cast magic does not really apply since technically GFs are also monsters and so you could assume that all monsters are just magically inclined and so they are able to use magic. Or if you dont like that you could even assume that monsters could be able to junction GFs considering that Selphie even says that she found a GF inside a monster.

Okay I just wanted to say this and some of you are saying that no one can cast magic without a GF. The Galbadian soldiers can cast magic but they never summon a GF. Also the main characters are able to Draw GF's so why can't they draw all of the summons away from the soldiers so they can't use them. Well now this is just a theory based on what I think some random person walking on the second floor of Balamb garden before you go to the Fire Cavern. I can't remember exactly what he says but he has already been to the Fire cavern so he has obtained a GF. Well what if that GF was Ifrit as well. Maybe that is why you can't draw the GF's from the galbadian soldiers. Because you already have the GF they have. This is just a Theory and there isn't that much evidence to support it I know but to me this has always made sense.

I still think it's an innate ability. Squall touches his forehead as if focusing mentally when casting Para-Magic or Summoning. This is why never thought there were no technology or devices involved, just telepath and telekenisis manipulating energy.

Also, because it is a natural with monsters I don't see how this excludes humans...

And not all GFs are 'monsters'. Odin is... something. Gilgamesh is an interdimensional anamoly, Eden is a Time Machine, Quesecotal seems to be quasi-sentient energy, but almost all seem to be more than just monsters. Too me they seem like inter-dimensional beings like Odin, maybe 'Old Gods'. But something less connected with monsters. Halflings.

So like I was sayin'...

I think that some Para-Magic effects are telepathic...

Meteor for example is powerful illusion and can the only defense against is the psi-screen effect known as "Shell". The physical telekenetic shield known as "Protect" has no effective defense at all against meteor.

These are just a two examples....

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Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III

Dude... WTF is wrong with you? Why are you adamant of breaking down dismissing ANY view of Para-Magic Mechanics other than your own?

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I'm not. I'm opposed to theories which disagree with the observed evidence and which violate parsimony six ways to sunday.

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If someone were to say that Para-Magic is excess of the Sorceress Power since there is always a Sorceress even till the time of Ultimecia; Even after Ultimecia's defeat Rinoa is still a Sorceress and if she is not to become Ultimecia, then there will be a succession of witches after her until Ultimecia is born, killed, and looped back to Edea... But now let's get back to you and your "Elite Theorists"... LOL

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I would expect them to show evidence to support their theory, at the very least.

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How is that irrelevent? That gives examples that organisms can use Para-Magic by nature.

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Yes, and we also have examples that show humans cannot use para-magic without outside assistance.

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First off, let's not argue. It's not necessary. I state my view, you state your's, everyone states their's and maybe we can put it all together. I never dismissed the JME, I just didn't understand it. After your posts I imagine that you're linking it to Materia. Which is not a bad way to see it. I don't understand why is it so 'wrong' that I think it's a dormant ability used by all, but requires training.

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Because if it was an ability that required training, it would only make sense for the SeeDs, IE: Your party- to have this hitherto unspoken of skill. They do not.

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Yes, and those infused with Magitek were able to use magic as well. But before hand the Magi were able to use Magics and then they found the awesome power of the Espers.

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You miss the point. The point is that the party does not always naturally have the power to cast magic.

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And I find you very petty. Chill out man. I did not denounce Odine's words... I just said that he was speaking out of hyperbole (much like you) about a machine that he hadn't invented yet;

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Yet which he spoke of as existing.

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much like you're denouncing any ideals other than your own until it's concedede that your "theory" and ONLY your "theory" is "fact" in a FANTASY... wait for this one... GAME!!!

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really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.. If someone can present a superior theory than exists, I'll accept it. Yours is not superior.

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Have a coke and a smile dude, or snort some, whatever it takes for you to not take this so damn seriously.

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I'm the one taking this seriously, huh?

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.... It's almost enough to make me cry... Are you listening to yourself? How do YOU know what Odine meant more than I do? Look back at your statement. Now I hope you know I'm just mirroring you right now. If you don't understand keep reading.

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Your entire point was that 'Odine said A, which means B, which proves C." Given that A can mean Q, Z, or FE7N, your logic does not necessarily follow.

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I guess you know this because you were there. Now I know what you're going to say... But wait. I'll say it for you. Squall was assigned as we see from his desk computer. But he wasn't junctioned to it as far we, as you would say: see in the game. And yes, Seifer could have been junctioned to a GF as you say, but again... You said could.... Which is... what's that big word you love to use... oh, "Postulate".

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Now that is a mass of sentence fragments. Oh, and if you feel like trying to throw my words back at me, try harder.
If Seifer could, in fact, cast para-magic sans aid of GF, then why, oh why, does he not choose to do this later in the game, when he is actually a part of your party? In a situation where such free use of magic would actually matter?

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Do you see what I'm saying to you now? You're just being petty and attacking my views because you want to be right when you never can be... Neither one of can. I don't want to argue over 'facts' when there can be none... You're trying to base 'facts' of what you see on "FANTASY"... There are NO FACTS. STOP TEARING APART EVERYONE'S ELSE'S views or interpetations on an underdeveloped aspect of the story. It's like Star Wars... Lucas created it. For years fans made endless theories of how the "Force" works. And then after 20 years Lucas comes up with "Medicholorians" and all these "expert fans" nearly threw up at the idea. I didn't really buy into it either, but I just shrugged... It's HIS creation, do what he want with it, who are we to say? We are not the creators so all we can do is have fun and make up our own fantasies or 'theories/conclusions' to our hearts desire.

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There are no points here. One can draw conclusions from given evidence, whether in fantasy or science fiction. The more in line with what is observed, the better.

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And... you know this because... uh... YOU were a SeeD. You were there. You took all the classes so you KNOW EXACTLY how to use Para-Magic, right? It's Fantasy, and you're looking at it from the 'gameplay' aspect. One sided view and I'm looking at from both sides. The enemies can use Para-Magic and Balamb is the only one that experiments with GFs, which are apparently not necessary to use Para-Magic.

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Appeal to ignorance. I'm also curious what you're basing your arguments on, other than gameplay, since the only instances of magic used outside of battle are by people from Balamb or by sorceresses.

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(sigh) Again, this is open to speculation. Monsters use Para-Magic, Soldiers use Para-Magic, ect, ect. No conclusive results except that Para-Magic exists and a lotta people can use it. Even without Junctioning to a GF. If you wanna 'postulate' on that, if I were Irvine or Selphie and I just joined up with the SeeDs... You think I'm gonna go into battle without the awesomeness of a GF? Or maybe SeeDs are trained to use a GF and they've just become accustomed to using Para-Magic only when junctions because of the huge amount of 'stocked' energy at their disposal instead of being at the disadvantage like their enemies that fall at the might of the All Powerful SeeD! (Was that a little over the top?) Do you see how I'm doing to you what you've been doing to me and others?

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No, I see you making up a bizarre explanation with little to no evidence which really doesn't make sense.

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This fits right there with your 'could' about Seifer. And the JME, and "what Odine meant"... It's FANTASY... It's a GAME... THERE ARE NO FACTS...

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Fact: Squall is a brown haired, male, gunblade weilding, resident of Balamb Garden who has become a SeeD.
There are facts, even in fiction. It's called suspension of disbelief.

"Maybe we're getting the idea of a Junction machine from the available evidence that such machines exist, and that the party cannot use any paramagic sans GF."

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Pfft!... JME's do not exist... yet, because Odine hasn't invented one yet. He's studying Ellone's... 'gift' but has yet to make one.

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Or has he?

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Originally Posted by Odine himself

"Eghhhhhh! I kept this a secret to surprise you. It iz because of me, Odine! I researched Ellone's power long ago. I made out a pattern from ze electric current running through Ellone's brain. Once ze pattern was determined, it was easy to mechanize. It may only be a toy right now, but in ze time of Ultimecia, it iz an impressive working machine! Which means there iz a machine which imitates Ellone's power. It iz I who made ze first model of zat machine. I named ze machine 'Junction Machine Ellone'!

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It was easy enough to mechanize. Currently, it's a toy, but it will eventually be powerful enough to reach across the ages. He made the first model of the machine. Except for the parts about the future potential of the machine, he speaks entirely in the past tense. It is already done.

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Also, you're only looking at "The Party", but everyone, scratch that, everyTHING else can... I see it natural, you see it other wise. Some see it as Hyne's Power or the presence of the Sorceress Power.

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So, someway, somehow, the party was having a smoke break when the rest of humanity was given the 'how to cast paramagic without some form of assistance' lesson.

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See there you go again. Like you're God and just blatantly attacking whatever I say. Not 'defending' your 'theory'. This is where I see you as just being plan petty... It's sad. No one's right, and no one's wrong. But you can't accept that. You keep pulling things outta the air, out of frame, your @$$ or wherever you can to knock down, attack, and only support your 'theory' when you're 'postulating' just as much as any of the 'postulates' that don't agree to what you believe, oh, I mean theorize with Theories Of Fantasy. You're trying to put yourself up there like you're God and "Violate" anything. And you said it like you were The God. "Parsimony/Blasphemy, it is violated." Insert booming voice, thunder and lightening, ect, ect. FX). LOL

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1- I don't have to defend a theory to point out flaws in yours, such as when it is violating parsimony.
2- Even scientists are merely postulating. But at least they have the common sense to postulate within the framework of given evidence.
3- No. I am above god. I exist.

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And puh-lease... Stop using huge thesaurical words. We all already know how omnipotent your knowledge is of fantasy... And don't even bother trying to insult my intelligence. I would see that coming and that would just make you look even more petty. Do you see how me insulting you directly like do me and others works? Yeah. It's predictable... and pathetic, isn't it? But apparently, I have to get down nearly to your level... BTW: You wanna pony? While you're down there I can make you a little 'horse'. Oh, I am sooooo evil... I'm sorry. Blame that one on the Icehouse...

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Firstly, Such words are what you use in this situation. Secondly, why would I insult your intelligence? Thirdly, if you are speaking of the same Icehouse I am thinking of, don't theorize or argue while intoxicated. Not a good idea.

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You sound like Viator: "Then the creators are wrong!" And You/We are NOT the creators.

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I'm not disagreeing with the creators. In fact, I am trying my damndest to figure out the world they have created, by sticking to what they have presented, and materials they have published about that world.

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As I've already said... There are no facts in fantasy. Stop trying to make yourself/selves the writers. Stick the fan-fiction. That's why started writing these 'theories' of mine a long time ago... It was suppose to be part of a fan-fic called "Diary Of A SeeD". Posted in the story forum years ago, but never finished... Under FAN-FICTION, emphasis on the FICTION.... You no 'facts' no more than the other person... only perspectives. Because that's all any of us can really do in this GAME... PERCIEVE. Play and percieve. The only 'default' are the character's names and the story.

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This is so wrong I don't know where to start. There are facts in fiction, at least within the framework of the fiction itself.

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Now there you go again using that big mouthed brain full of vocabulary again to announce like you're God again... And didn't you just commit parsimony with that very statement? Uh-huh... I thought so...

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You have no gorram idea what you're talking about, do you? Committing parsimony is a GOOD thing.

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Now, as tradition serves... I think now is when the MODS will close this thread. Mostly after I've finally busted a cap. And it's well that they do... I wanted this to be peaceful and not get into a MINE IS BETTER THAN YOURS deal.

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Then don't come into a theory thread. Theory is SUPPOSED to be dissected, rejected, and refined. Coming in here and expecting 'nice nice' is just silly.

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I still think it's an innate ability. Squall touches his forehead as if focusing mentally when casting Para-Magic or Summoning. This is why never thought there were no technology or devices involved, just telepath and telekenisis manipulating energy.

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So, since Squall touches his forhead, when no other caster, period, does anything similar, you think it's telekinesis? Color me exceedingly unconvinced.
-Note, I won't touch telepathic manipulation of energy, since telepathy is purely communication by definition-

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Also, because it is a natural with monsters I don't see how this excludes humans...

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Monsters!= humans. Of the humans we have direct experience with, none can cast para-magic solely on their own.

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I think that some Para-Magic effects are telepathic...

Meteor for example is powerful illusion and can the only defense against is the psi-screen effect known as "Shell". The physical telekenetic shield known as "Protect" has no effective defense at all against meteor.

These are just a two examples....

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Remember that big speech about Star Wars, fantasy not having facts, and accusing me of acting like Viator? You just made all of it, and I mean ALL of it meaningless with that quote.

Whatever... Biggs and Wedge can use Para-Magic and that's good enough for me.

Now then... Whenever Meteor is cast, Protect does nothing, but Shell does show evidence of trying to buffer the illusionary attack, by what I've seen. So I rather believe that it's an illusionary/telepathic attack. The background turning into space?

I figure it's similar Final Fantasy Tactics where those that do not have faith are not affected by magic attack. Like Steelworker 8, who has no faith and does not believe in magic, only logic. Summoners cast illusions, Holy Knights attack the mind, and ect. ect.

Also, however the means others than SeeDs are able to use Para-Magic, it is reasonable to believe that they can not draw or stock at SeeDs do. Therefore, they must cast whatever energies for Para-Magic are present, yes?