Is Advent Children REALLY better then SW?

Since I thought this was a topic that deserves to be discussed, and saw noone had started the thread, I thought I would do it.

Now, I know that the answer is going to be a resounding "YES" from the majority here But I still feel this is a thread that should be started. I personally feel that Spirits Within is by FAR a better film. It has a story that makes sense, deep characters that actually feel real, a poignant ending, and solid direction. Yah, I really don't care that it didnt have cloud or squall, or chocobos or summons, or materia/magecite/espers/aeons/what have you. It was just a good film. I feel the subject matter gets maligned a lot, and unjustly so. Sentient planetary chi (or energy if you will) was a plot point in several final fantasy titles. So why I wonder do people not bash FFVII for having tree hugging plot points? Also once again, so what if it doesn't have any prior FF characters except cid and a chocobo phantom? I still don't get the major issue with that.

Advent children on the other hand, I've gone in depth before, so I'll just summarize, it was poorly directed, hideously scripted, contrived beyond belief, with poor characterization on most parts. the only thing to really like about advent is that it tries to look stylish. But I've seen stylish. and style doesn't count for much for me when the writing and direction comes off as that loopy.

Anyways, that's my opinion. I still think this could be a interesting topic. Even though the outcome and general consensus can be seen coming a mile away. At least the discussion and points posted by the people here should be interesting.

I watched the Spirits Within before and after Advent Children and felt pretty much the same about it. I didn't feel the characters were real at all, I felt like I had missed their entire backstory and the entire main plot. It was like I skipped to the end of a story. But that's necessary when you're doing an hour a half movie with no source material of back information, so I get over that.

But even then, the plot and everything about it is just kind of average to me. For every neat idea squeezed in there's a lot of times I was just bored. It's not a bad movie and it isn't the anti-christ or something, but as far as sci-fi movies go it was nothing special. The villains have arched brows and do what they do for relatively no reason, there's a love story injected into it but barely covered, there's a cast of funny characters that all die, and there's bad alien creatures menacing everybody.

So basically it was crappy Aliens.

But again, it isn't a bad movie at all, a lot of things about it are good. If you do hate it, try subtracting the FF from the title and only looking at it like a sci-fi movie...There is enjoyment to be had sprinkled all over it.

And let us all be amazed that nobody's hair moves but Aki's... because she's a witch :shifty:

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

It has a story that makes sense, deep characters that actually feel real, a poignant ending, and solid direction.

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...And AC doesn't? It helps a lot to have played the game first. If you've beaten the game, then it has all of the things I quoted.

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I watched the Spirits Within before and after Advent Children and felt pretty much the same about it. I didn't feel the characters were real at all, I felt like I had missed their entire backstory and the entire main plot. It was like I skipped to the end of a story. But that's necessary when you're doing an hour a half movie with no source material of back information, so I get over that.

But even then, the plot and everything about it is just kind of average to me. For every neat idea squeezed in there's a lot of times I was just bored. It's not a bad movie and it isn't the anti-christ or something, but as far as sci-fi movies go it was nothing special. The villains have arched brows and do what they do for relatively no reason, there's a love story injected into it but barely covered, there's a cast of funny characters that all die, and there's bad alien creatures menacing everybody.

So basically it was crappy Aliens.

But again, it isn't a bad movie at all, a lot of things about it are good. If you do hate it, try subtracting the FF from the title and only looking at it like a sci-fi movie...There is enjoyment to be had sprinkled all over it.

And let us all be amazed that nobody's hair moves but Aki's... because she's a witch

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You basically hit the nail right on the head when it comes to the films chief flaw. Basically it always felt like sakaguchi tried to tell more story then he could fit into two hours. I always felt that with some editing, and some extra scenes here and there, Spirits Within could have been better, but still I felt it was still a great film. Flawed, yes. But still had enough good in it to make it great.

I really can’t be bothered working out which of these movies is better; they are both irredeemably [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img]. Advent Children because it’s contrived and stupid and Spirits Within because it’s boring and stale. The only redeeming feature of either of these is that they had half decent CG visuals.

I'd take ANTZ over either of these anyday.

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Originally Posted by Xurts

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

It has a story that makes sense, deep characters that actually feel real, a poignant ending, and solid direction.

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...And AC doesn't? It helps a lot to have played the game first. If you've beaten the game, then it has all of the things I quoted.

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To answer in a succint form, you just stated my case for me. Advent as a film has little to no development whatsoever, it all went down in the game. That's no real exscuse since we are speaking of the film.

If you got the time, you can see my posts on the advent children opinions thread, the one at the top of the board to see more in depth pointsand reply in that thread if you disagree to any of them. I'd like to keep both discussion seperate, and not overstate previously mentioned points.

Oh, by the way, I did play the game. Issalright, but I always thought VI and IX was better.

AC is a sequel. To the game. Meaning you need to play the game first to understand it. AC does not stand alone. What is so hard to understand about all this? People complain about it not having enough development, well, it's a less than two hour long movie, which is a sequel to the game. The movie just covers events that take place after the game. Sheezus.

I don't know about anyone else but I really enjoyed Advent, it just left this satsfying feeling because I finally knew the end (I always thought FF7's ending left something to be desired)

Possibly the reason for SE's 'creativity' as of late.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboco

I don't know about anyone else but I really enjoyed Advent, it just left this satsfying feeling because I finally knew the end (I always thought FF7's ending left something to be desired)

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It's not the end, it is the beginning. The last few games have been games for each character, I believe that Final Fantasy 7's ending has not yet ended, they will have to do something to explain where the clones came from. It's my belief that they left that out because they would need a mystery surrounding it if they ever do a sequel(although the main character will not be zack, cloud, or vincent, that still leaves a lot of other characters. I enjoyed Advent and not just because it added on to FF7's ending.

AC is WAYYYYYY better than SW. Swords and Guns for AC rocks, the swords in the motorcycle was awsome, the whole slow motioned part showed all the action. I didn't see any action in SW all there was was plants and dreams. Though AC english version was EXTREAMLY bad I liked the action (I saw both jap and eng:D )

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Originally Posted by Maux

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Originally Posted by Goldenboco

I don't know about anyone else but I really enjoyed Advent, it just left this satsfying feeling because I finally knew the end (I always thought FF7's ending left something to be desired)

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It's not the end, it is the beginning. The last few games have been games for each character, I believe that Final Fantasy 7's ending has not yet ended, they will have to do something to explain where the clones came from. It's my belief that they left that out because they would need a mystery surrounding it if they ever do a sequel(although the main character will not be zack, cloud, or vincent, that still leaves a lot of other characters. I enjoyed Advent and not just because it added on to FF7's ending.

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No, it is the end. AC wasn't even necessary to make, since the game ended very well.

Sephiroth created Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz by contaminating the nearby Lifestream with his will, and then splitting it into 3 equal parts. That was the only way he was able to survive after the game.

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Originally Posted by Xurts

Sephiroth created Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz by contaminating the nearby Lifestream with his will, and then splitting it into 3 equal parts. That was the only way he was able to survive after the game.

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Were we ever actually told that? If we were I missed it. Mind telling me where you heard this. But even if that is the case, I do not believe AC was the end, nor was FF7 or DoC. Considering how many people bought the movie, I can safely say it is a money maker, maybe not in the near future, but someday they will do another FF7(it's all about the money, and more than just a few things have yet to be explained). Even if I don't think a sequel should be done I don't believe Square has given up on it(look at how many prequels and sequels there are, they will have more, it is inevitable). Although they may decide to expand on an earlier or newer FF instead, which may or may not be good.

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Originally Posted by Maux

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Originally Posted by Xurts

Sephiroth created Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz by contaminating the nearby Lifestream with his will, and then splitting it into 3 equal parts. That was the only way he was able to survive after the game.

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Were we ever actually told that? If we were I missed it. Mind telling me where you heard this. But even if that is the case, I do not believe AC was the end, nor was FF7 or DoC. Considering how many people bought the movie, I can safely say it is a money maker, maybe not in the near future, but someday they will do another FF7(it's all about the money, and more than just a few things have yet to be explained). Even if I don't think a sequel should be done I don't believe Square has given up on it(look at how many prequels and sequels there are, they will have more, it is inevitable). Although they may decide to expand on an earlier or newer FF instead, which may or may not be good.

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How else would Sephiroth be able to return in AC? Jenova cells alone are not enough to make Sephiroth magically materialize out of thin air. He had to of had them absorbed into one of his remants.

I'm against Square making all of these FF7 spinoffs. They don't realize that they are making FF7 the Mario of the FF series. And it seems they won't stop making more FF7 crap until people are so sick of it that they just stop buying it completely.

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Originally Posted by Maux

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Originally Posted by Xurts

Sephiroth created Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz by contaminating the nearby Lifestream with his will, and then splitting it into 3 equal parts. That was the only way he was able to survive after the game.

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Were we ever actually told that? If we were I missed it. Mind telling me where you heard this. But even if that is the case, I do not believe AC was the end, nor was FF7 or DoC. Considering how many people bought the movie, I can safely say it is a money maker, maybe not in the near future, but someday they will do another FF7(it's all about the money, and more than just a few things have yet to be explained).

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Actually, if it's all about the money, square would do well to give up now. Advent Children, as of an update I saw about two months ago had sold less then 3 million copies world wide, with maybe 500,000 copies being sold in japan. thats actually very bad, and far below Spirits Within performance.

Maybe a factory is producing all the clones? Honestly the movie leaves so many things unexplained, that all we can really do is guess. Although about all the FF7 spinoffs, as happened with mario, but Mario is still a highly popular game series. Maybe they will make a Final Fantasy 7 battle royal game or something? But yes some people would get sick of it, and stop buying, but a lot would probably continue to buy as well. It just depends, some spinoffs are crap others are not.

Don't worry, it won't just be FFVII. They'll do this with all the FFs from now on. :D

Of course, the solution is to just stop buying them, but, well, try convincing everyone else to not do that. AC and DoC are interesting, and I suppose adds more to the FFVII mythos, but we really don't need this much crap. (Turks cell phone game? Eh? A one episode sequel to a spin off? I'm lost.)

But, enough of that, I'm going off-topic.

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Originally Posted by Maux

Maybe a factory is producing all the clones? Honestly the movie leaves so many things unexplained, that all we can really do is guess. Although about all the FF7 spinoffs, as happened with mario, but Mario is still a highly popular game series. Maybe they will make a Final Fantasy 7 battle royal game or something? But yes some people would get sick of it, and stop buying, but a lot would probably continue to buy as well. It just depends, some spinoffs are crap others are not.

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AC solves all of the questions/problems, it does not add any.

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Originally Posted by Xurts

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Originally Posted by Maux

Maybe a factory is producing all the clones? Honestly the movie leaves so many things unexplained, that all we can really do is guess. Although about all the FF7 spinoffs, as happened with mario, but Mario is still a highly popular game series. Maybe they will make a Final Fantasy 7 battle royal game or something? But yes some people would get sick of it, and stop buying, but a lot would probably continue to buy as well. It just depends, some spinoffs are crap others are not.

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AC solves all of the questions/problems, it does not add any.

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No, it doesn't. At no time do we get told where these three fruitcakes that are new villains sprouted up from. It certainly wasn't the northern crater, as that thing erupted and would have fried any and all genetic material left in that crater. So where and when did sephiroth have time to plant these three freaks? that's just one of a billion questions Advent doesn't answer.

and also, keep in mind that if Advent really is a profit, then it's a modest one at best. With less then three million copies sold, and less then a full third of that profit being in japan, where it was available for almost ten months before it was released internationally, thats just flat out bad and has gotta sting square's pocketbooks. Spirits within sold better then that, but at the same time cost alot more to make.

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No, it doesn't. At no time do we get told where these three fruitcakes that are new villains sprouted up from. It certainly wasn't the northern crater, as that thing erupted and would have fried any and all genetic material left in that crater. So where and when did sephiroth have time to plant these three freaks? that's just one of a billion questions Advent doesn't answer.

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Sephiroth created them using his own will and contaminated Spirit Energy. Holy would not have affected either of these things.

Their creation didn't happen instantly anyway, since it took them two years to emerge from the Northern Crater.

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and also, keep in mind that if Advent really is a profit, then it's a modest one at best. With less then three million copies sold, and less then a full third of that profit being in japan, where it was available for almost ten months before it was released internationally, thats just flat out bad and has gotta sting square's pocketbooks. Spirits within sold better then that, but at the same time cost alot more to make.

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I think the main thing behind AC's poor sales is that Square never advertised it at all (at least not in the US, I don't know about Japan). So only dedicated fans who go looking for the information are going to learn about it, unless they hear about it from their friends.

SW, on the other hand, was advertised a lot, and it was even showed in theaters. That's one of the main reasons why it sold so much better.

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Originally Posted by Xurts

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No, it doesn't. At no time do we get told where these three fruitcakes that are new villains sprouted up from. It certainly wasn't the northern crater, as that thing erupted and would have fried any and all genetic material left in that crater. So where and when did sephiroth have time to plant these three freaks? that's just one of a billion questions Advent doesn't answer.

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Sephiroth created them using his own will and contaminated Spirit Energy. Holy would not have affected either of these things.

Their creation didn't happen instantly anyway, since it took them two years to emerge from the Northern Crater.

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and also, keep in mind that if Advent really is a profit, then it's a modest one at best. With less then three million copies sold, and less then a full third of that profit being in japan, where it was available for almost ten months before it was released internationally, thats just flat out bad and has gotta sting square's pocketbooks. Spirits within sold better then that, but at the same time cost alot more to make.

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I think the main thing behind AC's poor sales is that Square never advertised it at all (at least not in the US, I don't know about Japan). So only dedicated fans who go looking for the information are going to learn about it, unless they hear about it from their friends.

SW, on the other hand, was advertised a lot, and it was even showed in theaters. That's one of the main reasons why it sold so much better.

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First of all, regarding the seph clones, at no time is it mentioned how they were created, it is only stated "they are remnants".

second of all, as I previously stated, if they did indeed sprout up in the northern crater, it is one of the films worst plot points. that crater erupted, there shouldn't even be a crater anymore since the magma would have solidified and sealed the crater, and any genetic material would have been fried KFC style.

and lastly, Square enix advertised Advent immensely. showing a trailer at the 2005 venice film festival, frequent advertisements and interviews in a variety of gaming magazines, a thorough revival of the Final Fantasy VII franchise, and eight months of pushing back the release date in a pathetic attempt to drive up demand. Square used every attempt in the book to push sales of Advent Children, and it floundered utterly. AC was marketed in much the same way Spirits Within was, and I'd say one of the reasons square balked on a theatrical release for AC was it's poor sales in japan. But regardless, gamers were just as aware of AC as they were of SW, And having AC tie into a actual video game increases it's overall demand among gaming audiences then SW did.

Personally, I think AC is a horrid film, but I'm not going to say that it's poor performance is proof positive of just how bad it is (though I will say it's a factor). SW got slammed in theatres, and i loved it immensely. Some of my favorite movies such as Army of Darkness, performed not so great in theatres and films I loathe, such as Last Samurai, did great in theatres. I think part of AC's poor performance is that the old school crowd has more or less given up on square, since Sakaguchi took off and formed mistwalker taking amano and uematsu with him. There are more gamers in their twenties and thirties then you would think, and I find these people constitute the majority of squares critics today. The other half, the part that alienates non FF and/or video game fans, is that the story and direction really is crap. Clouds life being saved because that bullett hits his shades, and is deflected entirely, Aerieth being used time and again as a Deus Ex Machina plot device, nonsensical plot points such as the children being THAT stupid as to drink scat infected water while one of their own is held prisoner, or even to think a group of freaky looking leather loving misfits driving a beat up truck has the cure while doctors don't, the sudden and contrived resolution of clouds self doubt, the poor direction of the fight scenes, these are all factors that will alienate discriminating film buffs like myself.

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First of all, regarding the seph clones, at no time is it mentioned how they were created, it is only stated "they are remnants".

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Not everything is going to be explained. You have to think sometimes.

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second of all, as I previously stated, if they did indeed sprout up in the northern crater, it is one of the films worst plot points. that crater erupted, there shouldn't even be a crater anymore since the magma would have solidified and sealed the crater, and any genetic material would have been fried KFC style.

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Once Sephiroth was out of the way Holy was able to take effect and battle Meteor. What "erupted" out of the Northern Crater was HOLY, nothing else.

Magma? Who said anything about magma? No.

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and lastly, Square enix advertised Advent immensely. showing a trailer at the 2005 venice film festival, frequent advertisements and interviews in a variety of gaming magazines, a thorough revival of the Final Fantasy VII franchise, and eight months of pushing back the release date in a pathetic attempt to drive up demand. Square used every attempt in the book to push sales of Advent Children, and it floundered utterly. AC was marketed in much the same way Spirits Within was, and I'd say one of the reasons square balked on a theatrical release for AC was it's poor sales in japan. But regardless, gamers were just as aware of AC as they were of SW, And having AC tie into a actual video game increases it's overall demand among gaming audiences then SW did.

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Well I never saw ONE advertisement ANYWHERE for it.

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Personally, I think AC is a horrid film, but I'm not going to say that it's poor performance is proof positive of just how bad it is (though I will say it's a factor). SW got slammed in theatres, and i loved it immensely. Some of my favorite movies such as Army of Darkness, performed not so great in theatres and films I loathe, such as Last Samurai, did great in theatres. I think part of AC's poor performance is that the old school crowd has more or less given up on square, since Sakaguchi took off and formed mistwalker taking amano and uematsu with him. There are more gamers in their twenties and thirties then you would think, and I find these people constitute the majority of squares critics today. The other half, the part that alienates non FF and/or video game fans, is that the story and direction really is crap. Clouds life being saved because that bullett hits his shades, and is deflected entirely, Aerieth being used time and again as a Deus Ex Machina plot device, nonsensical plot points such as the children being THAT stupid as to drink scat infected water while one of their own is held prisoner, or even to think a group of freaky looking leather loving misfits driving a beat up truck has the cure while doctors don't, the sudden and contrived resolution of clouds self doubt, the poor direction of the fight scenes, these are all factors that will alienate discriminating film buffs like myself.

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I have to admit, I didn't quite get the bullet-to-the-face part myself. That's one of the very, very few things that didn't make sense. When I see little things like that I don't get all worked up about it. EVERY movie has flaws. No movie is absolutely perfect and lacking any sort of error whatsoever.

Those kids had a life-threatening disease. I'm sure they were willing to try anything to be rid of it.

After Cloud discovers that Aeris didn't blame him for her death, he forgives himself for all of his past "failures" and finds new motivation to fight.

You just have to listen to the movie, dude. If you are that damn determined to find problems with it, then why watch it? gtfo and go watch SW or some other movie you enjoy. Stop bothering us.

If I had the time to waste to go and watch SW again, I could sit there and find just as many, if not more, mistakes in the movie as AC.

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Originally Posted by Xurts

Not everything is going to be explained. You have to think sometimes.

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And from the line 'They are Remnants' you managed to get 'Sephiroth created them using his own will and contaminated Spirit Energy'? I'll bet you anything that that wasn't so much you thinking as it was you reading it on some website.

Sometimes the director does want you to think. Other times it's just plain old crappy writing.

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Originally Posted by Squall of SeeD

However, Sephiroth's will is -- as was said by Tetsuya Nomura in The Distance: The Making of Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children -- above all and second to none. He refused to allow himself to be absorbed into the Lifestream to simply become a memory. As such, his consciousness -- as it dispersed through the Lifestream's Spirit Energy -- contaminated the surrounding Spirit Energy with his will, and he then made himself manifest once more, though he was now divided into three seperate entities, all with seperate aspects of his consciousness, and, thereby, their own unique personalities.

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There you have it, straight from Nomura himself.

And that supplements your point of 'You have to think sometimes' how?

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Originally Posted by Lilliputian Hitcher

And that supplements your point of 'You have to think sometimes' how?

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Originally Posted by Xurts

Not everything is going to be explained. You have to think sometimes.

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That was just an example of something that is explained. The Shadow Creepers are something you have to think about.

Egh, I don't really know how you can argue one was better than the other. As far as opinion goes, I enjoyed both of them immensely, although I have to say I enjoyed Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children a bit more.

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Originally Posted by Xurts

That was just an example of something that is explained. The Shadow Creepers are something you have to think about.

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No, if he really wanted people to 'think', Tetsuya Nomura wouldn't have told us (directly no less) what the scene means. As it stands, there was absolutely no way in order to tell how the Silver Haired Men came into existence and Nomura having to explain it to us later only emphasizes this point.

I enjoyed Advent Children more than Spirits Within. The characters in Advent Children are more likeable and it's got more action in it.

I think AC was like ten times better than Spirits Within. Spirits Within had nothing to do with Final Fantasy. It should not have been called Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.

Sprits within was barely a final fantasy, it should've just been a film called "Spirits Within". That's it. I reckon the only reason people even put final fantasy in it's name was to get people to watch it...
I prefer AC to SW, but that's cos I love good fighting scenes.

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Originally Posted by f f freak

I think AC was like ten times better than Spirits Within. Spirits Within had nothing to do with Final Fantasy. It should not have been called Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.

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That's exactly what I needed to hear from someone.

Advent Children is much better then The Spirits Within

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Originally Posted by No.78;

Sprits within was barely a final fantasy, it should've just been a film called "Spirits Within". That's it. I reckon the only reason people even put final fantasy in it's name was to get people to watch it...
I prefer AC to SW, but that's cos I love good fighting scenes.

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First of all, if you go by that definition then none of the final fantasy's are final fantasy, because 97% of the stories share little to no connection with one another. So I'd like to know what you mean when you can say it wasn't final fantasy.


Second of all, I like the action scenes in SW better then AC. The first SW action scene gets off with the statue of the virgin mary getting it's head blasted off in a church, which kinda tells you there is little to nothing sacred in this proverbial brave new world. Also, people died. NOT, going to the lifestream. NOT, fading away only to return another day. THEY DIED! They aren't coming back. This sorta gives the action scenes a bit more dramatic strength over the overrated kicking high that was AC's nonsensical action sequences. Think about it, who really died? Kadaj loz, and yazoo all go to the lifestream apparently, sephiroth buggers off but he'll be back, and cloud is resurrected for the umpteenth time. Who really gets hurt in the action scenes? Cloud is an unkillable cockroach, Tifa takes a siesta with no noticeable after effects, and loz and yazoo get their toys busted. The only one where there is any real injury is where bahamut goes down, and he just fades away instead of leaving a corpus delecti, so yah drop him a pheonix down and he'll be up and running again by the sequel.

Not to mention that the action scenes are nonsensical at best. There is more to creating a martial combat scene then kicking high and moving in slow motion. For crying out loud even the matrix got that right. A good fight scene should tell as much a story as the dialogue and quieter moments, it should feature technique, skill, power, and agility. Not alot of hopping, bopping, and shooting for no apparent reason then a vain attempt at grandstanding.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Also, people died. NOT, going to the lifestream. NOT, fading away only to return another day. THEY DIED! They aren't coming back. This sorta gives the action scenes a bit more dramatic strength over the overrated kicking high that was AC's nonsensical action sequences.

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I actually felt that the shear volume of death in TSW was one of the weakest aspects of the movie. I mean, they virtually kill off the entire cast all confined within the last third or so (don't quote me on that. It could have started as far back as the last half) of the movie. Random character slaying was one of the aspects of the earlier FF games (ie FFII-IV) that I liked least and I’m quite glad that this dubious method of adding ‘depth’ to the game has since been abandoned. I’d prefer this sort of thing to remain within the horror genre, where it belongs.

Well, I'm of a different opinion, I think character deaths add drama and meaning to a story, so long as it's done appropriately. I think FFVII the game is hideously overrated, but the death of Aerieth was one of the things I thought was done perfectly. I think no real action film can be believeable without having at least one major character die, because without the threat of imminent defeat and/or death , the action often lacks any real bite or impact.

There have been certain films where character deaths I felt were handled cheaply, just simply as a meager plot device rather then calculated for maximum impact. So I can understand where you are coming from, but SW I felt handled it's bodycount appropriately. Espescially the death of general hein. He did mean to kill himself, the government just gave him a MUCH bigger gun to do it with, and take those he hated with him. I do like the dramatic poignancy and irony in that development.

I found SW much better.

AC = a lame story that didn't need to happen because FF7 wrapped itself up nicely.

SW = a meh storyline but not like...a crazy groundbreaking film (other than graphically).

SW had way too much death. At the end there was what like two people left alive. They could have left just a few more people alive. Also AC had something to do with one of the final fantasy games. There wasn't even any magic that I can remember in SW. There was some magic in AC. There was no cool action sequences in SW. There was a decent amount in AC. Overall I think AC was much better. It had more of a storyline than lets go collect some random stuff and save the world. YAY. AC was like OMG Sephiroth clones that all look like girls apart from Loz who is a crybaby but at least they are decent villains who have names.

Sorry about not having any quotes. Thank the Admins for succeeding in murdering them.

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Also, people died. NOT, going to the lifestream. NOT, fading away only to return another day. THEY DIED! They aren't coming back.

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In the FF7 world, EVERYONE goes back to the Lifestream when they die. Their Spirit Energy is recycled there to create new life.

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hink about it, who really died? Kadaj loz, and yazoo all go to the lifestream apparently, sephiroth buggers off but he'll be back, and cloud is resurrected for the umpteenth time.

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After AC, it is highly unlikely that Sephiroth will be able to return. At the end his will is so fragmented that it would be nearly impossible for him to retrieve all of it again, not to mention find more Jenova cells for a Reunion.

Nobody is ever resurrected in the FF7 Compilation, especially not Cloud since he never died in the first place.

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Who really gets hurt in the action scenes? Cloud is an unkillable cockroach, Tifa takes a siesta with no noticeable after effects, and loz and yazoo get their toys busted.

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All of the main characters are superhumanly strong in AC, so it is going to be very difficult for anyone to actually get hurt.

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so yah drop him a pheonix down and he'll be up and running again by the sequel.

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Phoenix Downs only work if someone is unconscious (hence the term KO). If they brought a dead person back to life then Aeris and Zack would still be alive.

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Not to mention that the action scenes are nonsensical at best. There is more to creating a martial combat scene then kicking high and moving in slow motion. For crying out loud even the matrix got that right. A good fight scene should tell as much a story as the dialogue and quieter moments, it should feature technique, skill, power, and agility.

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All of that is featured in the fight scenes, it just happens really fast. It wouldn't be realistic for the FF7 fans if the fights were normal-paced. Since at the end of FF7 everyone is super strong.

If you're going to knock it, then you could at least try to understand the plot and how everything works so you don't look like a total douche when you do it.

Well, I must admit that I have never seen Spirits Within. However, from what I've heard about it, it is very much like Advent Children in the fact that it's a cult film. However, it would seem to me that AC would be a better cult film because of the fact that the game provides the backstory, while with SW no such thing exists to provide that kind of information. Overall though, most people have had a much better reaction to AC then to SW, so with my limited amount of info, I'm going to go with AC being better.

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Sorry about not having any quotes. Thank the Admins for succeeding in murdering them.

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In the FF7 world, EVERYONE goes back to the Lifestream when they die. Their Spirit Energy is recycled there to create new life.


After AC, it is highly unlikely that Sephiroth will be able to return. At the end his will is so fragmented that it would be nearly impossible for him to retrieve all of it again, not to mention find more Jenova cells for a Reunion.

Nobody is ever resurrected

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And in SW, everyone goes to Gaea. Difference is in SW, when someone dies, they stay dead. In SW cloud is beaten up, shot, stabbed, and blown to kingdom come. He was dead, his body obliterated, and the lifestream (along with some coaching from aerieth) resurrects him. Hence showing why the story is so lame.

Also, c'mon man, sephiroth managed to split himself up into kadaj, yazoo, and Loz without any jenova cells. So you mean to actually tell me you actually believe they wouldn't bring him back a third time. Oh wait, they already did that in KH II. Okay a fourth time then. :rolleyes2

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All of the main characters are superhumanly strong in AC, so it is going to be very difficult for anyone to actually get hurt.

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First of all, thanks for agreeing with me that noone suffers any long term damage in AC. It's nice that we see eye to eye on something.

second of all, here's a story for you. I have a friend who loves to knock on the 90's superman animated series, every time he see's the boxed sets in my collection, he goes on and on about how they wussified him, at certain points more then others. Which I agree with (c'mon, him getting owned by sinestro was just stupid) to a certain point, but I understand completely why the writers did it. A super powerful character is boring, lame, and just not interesting. Oh look, here comes a super villain, superman is just going to super punch and save the day. how long do you think the series could have lasted with that sort of plot outline for every episode?

point is characters who are super powerful and nigh invulnerable are boring, lame, and just not interesting. A character who is fallable is more interesting, we fear for them, cheer them on, feel their pain when they are beaten and humbled. Hence, why SW has the better action sequences. In AC, you know cloud won't die, I mean how many times does Aerieth save his punk ass? hence, why someone who actually cares for interesting storytelling would consider the fight sequences boring.

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Phoenix Downs only work if someone is unconscious (hence the term KO). If they brought a dead person back to life then Aeris and Zack would still be alive.

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hmmm, the phoenix being a legendary bird that rises from the dead, And you mean to tell me that Phoenix downs only cure unconsciousness? That's called sleep status, and the party not using a phoenix down is called a long criticized plot hole. People have been making fun of that plot point for 9 years by this point.

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All of that is featured in the fight scenes, it just happens really fast. It wouldn't be realistic for the FF7 fans if the fights were normal-paced. Since at the end of FF7 everyone is super strong.

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I take it your referring to my criticizing AC for not displaying any technique, skill, power and agility in their fight scenes? You don't know much about martial arts and the human body do you? here's a few MORE examples.

Already mentioned Tifa's inexplicable lack of dodging Loz's blow.

Sephiroth blocking a overhead leaping downward slash, which is more powerful then a charging slash due to gravity, and inertia, barehanded and then being taken out by the same sword that already failed to cut him is more then a little stupid.

And while we're there, how did cloud pull off his limit break? screw strength or power, the man has a gaping sword wound in his sword arm. That fight was done, I don't care how strong you are. I take a accidental hit on my good arm in kendo practice, and I need to go sit down. Sever the muscles and tendons that control that arm like sephiroth did to cloud, and I'd need a surgeon and a miracle to ever use that arm again.

Oh yah, and how did he pull out sephiroths sword from his shoulder without cutting off his fingers. He wrapped his fingers around the blade, so technically, he should have hurt himself worse.

And can someone tell me what the whole point of the initial fight scene is? besides demonstrating the inexplicably strong shades cloud is wearing and just how bad a shot yazoo is.

Cloud running up tree's vertically, and hovering in the air for ten seconds at a time, yeesh not even crouching tiger or Hero stretched wuxia physics to that silly point.

Then there was the whole silly and poor direction. Not once did we ever get a sense of who is the stronger or more skilled fighter at any time with any sense of continuity. Tifa turning in mid air, yet failing to dodge for five seconds while loz just stands there is silly, the fight in the forest is just so much hopping and bopping, I'm surprised mario doesn't sue. The fight with bahamut, puh-leeze. That was just iron monkey done vertical, and stupid.

Shall I go on?

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If you're going to knock it, then you could at least try to understand the plot and how everything works so you don't look like a total douche when you do it.

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wow, name calling. There's a cool headed convincing argument for yah. Way to present the facts in a convincing and charismatic light there.

EDIT: wow, you really can't use quotes anymore on these threads. apologies in advance if this makes this thread hard to read, it's pretty much a point by point reply to xertis (I think that's his name).

In the FF7 world, nobody is ever resurrected either. They stay dead. Cloud never dies. He is knocked unconscious by the explosion at the end, and Avalanche takes him to the church where the Lifestream water heals him.

Sephiroth did not need Jenova cells to divide his will. I'm sure if he had his way he would've never divided it in the first place, but he had to to survive. Jenova cells had nothing to do with it, even though he does have them in the game. They are required, however, for a Reunion to occur, which is how he was able to return through Kadaj.

KH is in a different continuity than FF7. In no way are they related. Saying that Sephiroth was revived in KH is about as stupid as that one guy's theory saying that Aeris's twin died in FF7 and the actual Aeris was alive in KH. They are two totally different games.

We don't know if anyone suffered long-term damage. The movie takes place over a period of about 2 days, that is not near long enough to judge whether or not someone has suffered long-term damage.

Strong characters being boring is your opinion, so I'm not going to say anything about it.

I even think that the in-game descriptions of Phoenix Downs say something about reviving from KO. None of them ever say anything about reviving from the dead. I don't know where anyone got that idea from, because it is proved wrong so easily.

Loz was able to get an attack in at Tifa because he caught her off-guard by throwing a bench at her, and he used his speed boost to get over to her.

That isn't a wound on Cloud's arm either, it's Geostigma. Something entirely different.

When Cloud pulled out Sephiroth's sword, he obviously didn't put any pressure on the edge, just the broad side.

I don't get the first motorcycle scene myself. Like I've said before, it's one of AC's flaws. Every movie has them.

Besides, this isn't exactly our world with our physics and laws we are talking about here. This is on FF7's own world, just as SW is in its own as well.

From what I read from your posts, it seems that the only reason why you watch AC was so you could nit-pick and bash it, instead of actually paying attention to the plot and enjoying it.

Would you like me to go on a rant about how things in SW don't make sense? I'm sure I could find tons of little things in that movie as well, just as I could in any other movie I watch.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

hmmm, the phoenix being a legendary bird that rises from the dead, And you mean to tell me that Phoenix downs only cure unconsciousness? That's called sleep status, and the party not using a phoenix down is called a long criticized plot hole. People have been making fun of that plot point for 9 years by this point.

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A little off topic but I had to add to this. A soft would have easily cleared up the Stone afflicting Red XIII's father. I always found that kind of funny. But to just kind of explain to Xurts why a Pheonix Down should revive someone from the dead (even if they don't) is because a pheonix is a magical bird with the power of healing and rebirth (resurrection). A down is a feather from a bird. Therefore, a pheonix down is a feather directly from a pheonix that should revive people. That's why there is the Pheonix Down/Aerith controversy.

AC is way better than SW, SW didn't even have anything to do with Final Fantasy in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Cloud running up tree's vertically, and hovering in the air for ten seconds at a time, yeesh not even crouching tiger or Hero stretched wuxia physics to that silly point.

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Err, wasn’t there a scene in Hero where they were balancing on water with their swords. That scene was a little higher on this ‘ridiculous crap that could never happen’ meter IMO.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

I even think that the in-game descriptions of Phoenix Downs say something about reviving from KO. None of them ever say anything about reviving from the dead. I don't know where anyone got that idea from, because it is proved wrong so easily.

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I’m positive there are at least a few FF games where they specifically call the KO status ‘dead’.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

That isn't a wound on Cloud's arm either, it's Geostigma. Something entirely different.

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He meant the wound Cloud receives when he’s stabbed by Sephiroth. I’ll assume that they decided that it was best to throw logic out the window with that scene and instead try in with FFVII’s method of characters receiving Limit Breaks (ie heavy damage).

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

From what I read from your posts, it seems that the only reason why you watch AC was so you could nit-pick and bash it, instead of actually paying attention to the plot and enjoying it.

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To be fair, it’s a lot easier to locate the flaws in the movie than it is to locate the plot.

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Originally Posted by Lilliputian Hitcher

To be fair, it’s a lot easier to locate the flaws in the movie than it is to locate the plot.

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Though I enjoyed the movie, this statement is pretty much true. The only real plot to it was Cloud getting over his guilt about Aerith and Zach, which would have only been like a fifteen minute movie so they added all this other crap in too. Most of it was just eye candy, and the plot of the movie really didn't progress the storyline of VII at all. Overall, it wasn't that great of a movie storywise, but was flashy and spiffy to all of the fanboys. And that is the definition of a cult movie, which AC most certainly was.

Quote: Err, wasn’t there a scene in Hero where they were balancing on water with their swords. That scene was a little higher on this ‘ridiculous crap that could never happen’ meter IMO.

Like I said, Hero Stretched Wuxia physics to the point of silliness on occasion. the whole bounching off water is TECHNICALLY possible in wuxia (fantasy) storytelling if one manages to channel their chi to create pressure against the water. But the whole using their swords plot point was fairly silly, as was the whole "we fought in our minds" and "I see the definition of swordsmanship in a word that says, sword."

Among HK film connosieurs, Crouching Tiger and Hero are both decent films with flaws that prevent them from being great. Crouching tiger has the lesser fight sequences, with only one TRULY great fight sequence that being the second fight between Jhen and Shu Lien (Michelle yeoh's and Zhang Ziyi's characters) but it has the superior story. Which is really saying something considering it was taken from a novel, which was the fourth book in a five book series, and managed to tell a coherent story within the continuity in two hours.

Hero on the other hand, is widely regarded to have the more impressive fight sequences, but it's storytelling gets a bit silly at times, for the aforementioned reasons. Alot of people agree that the HK film industry has seen a decline of quality films for a long time now. Shaolin soccer, a decent film but nothing great, being the highest grossing film of it's year is sorta a good demonstration of that. But the industry has been putting out more and more quality films again, so most agree that the industry is looking up.

Hopefully I didnt derail the topic too badly with this rant.

Oh and by the way, I don't watch any film to pick out it's flaws. The quality or lack of it, speaks for itself. and AC has a great many glaring flaws.

SW IS NOT a Final Fantasy because as you can always see, EVERY Final Fantasy has weapons. SW, on the other hand, did not have ANY weapons besides these...weird looking guns and jars. AC had LOTS of weapons, gunarm, boomerang, swords, the...thing that Loz had, guns, gunblades and others.

Vaincast, whats your point exactly? So your pretty much writing off a good film because it had nothing to do with ff? Your right of course, who needs all that lovely story goodness when you can have..swords and summons and magic and...you know what, nvm.

Ahem, I prefer SW over AC anyway. It had a neat story.

I'm saying, why would the directors or producers make SW if it had nothing to do with Final Fantasy and WHY would they add to the title: Final Fantasy. They could have just put pirits Within without making so many Final Fantasy fans mad and making them NOT wanting to play or watch any other Final Fantasies.

[.................]

It actually makes fans not want to watch/play any other final fantasys? How about not mentioning the film again instead of posting/talking about it?

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I’m positive there are at least a few FF games where they specifically call the KO status ‘dead’.

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I highly doubt it. You'll have to find me one, then. Even if you do manage to find one it doesn't matter anyway. This is FF7, where Phoenix Downs are used to revive people from KO, or unconsciousness. Other games don't matter.

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He meant the wound Cloud receives when he’s stabbed by Sephiroth. I’ll assume that they decided that it was best to throw logic out the window with that scene and instead try in with FFVII’s method of characters receiving Limit Breaks (ie heavy damage).

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In AC we see that Cloud, and everyone else in Avalanche for that matter, execute their Limit Breaks at will. Cloud no longer needs to be damaged in order for him to use one.

Sephiroth stabbed him in the upper part of his ribcage. Go watch it again.

Quote: I'm saying, why would the directors or producers make SW if it had nothing to do with Final Fantasy and WHY would they add to the title: Final Fantasy. They could have just put pirits Within without making so many Final Fantasy fans mad and making them NOT wanting to play or watch any other Final Fantasies.

Vaincast, no disrespect intended here, I dont know how old you are or how long you've been playing final fantasy video games, but are you aware that most final fantasy titles have little to nothing to do with one another? weapons, characters, and storytelling all differ from title to title. The only similarities are certain storytelling themes which Final Fantasy's creator, Hironobu Sakaguchi (who also made Spirits Within) worked hard to keep central to the entire series. Themes like Meaning of life, hope, spirituality, and other deep concepts are explored in different ways from title to title, and this is what makes, according to sakaguchi himself, spirits within applicable to Final Fantasy.

Accusing SW of not being final fantasy, or being bad for the franchise because cloud didn't prance along pulling Bahamut's out of the air, is unjustified. SW, like Every final fantasy, should be judged on it's own terms, and exist within it's own continuity. I felt that in the past, it's been a sign of the series strength that most titles could offer a compelling story without having anything to do with on another. And ever since the series started having sequels and spin offs, I've felt the quality of storytelling has declined drastically.

It has only been under Nomura's (the guy who made AC) direction that there have been direct sequels to final fantasy. Personally, I think Nomura is a grandstanding hack. He has never had a single character design I found to be inspired, and has never written or directed a single female character that I found likeable, or original. From Tifa, to Kairi, to Rinoa, to Paine, this guy doesn't have a single creative or original bone in his body. He doesn't have a clue how to write female dialogue, and his male characters are almost always of the bishonen type no matter what their walk of life is.

Quote Xurts: I highly doubt it. You'll have to find me one, then. Even if you do manage to find one it doesn't matter anyway. This is FF7, where Phoenix Downs are used to revive people from KO, or unconsciousness. Other games don't matter.

Xurts, consider for a moment the attacks most final fantasy characters withstand. Guns, knives, savage physical attacks, bites, claws, lightning, fire, meteors, and other such lethal occurrences raining havoc upon them. And you mean to tell that you think such things cause unconsciousness? Tell you what, go outside in the next thunderstorm carrying some sort of metal rod on a rooftop, and tell a friend of yours to just slap you to wake up when the inevitable occurs. Just to test that theory. I mean it will only cause unconsciousness... right?

Personally, regarding FFVII, I've felt that the reason RedXIII's father didn't get a soft is the same reason they didn't use a phoenix down on Aerieth. They were too slow in acting. Seto (I think that was the name of RedXIII's pop) shielded his family from stoning arrows while they escaped, so they likely didn't have an opportunity to go back for quite some time. And we all know what a mess cloud was when Aerieth got the shaft, It's likely he didn't think of using one until it's too late (smooth move there spikey). Though, it is fun to criticize both plot points, and that this was never mentioned considering both victims could have been saved from there predicament with a couple gil and some thought.

Quote: In AC we see that Cloud, and everyone else in Avalanche for that matter, execute their Limit Breaks at will. Cloud no longer needs to be damaged in order for him to use one.

One problem with that, your using video game logic to justify gaps in storytelling. This is a film, where storytelling is far more critical then in a video game. You just can't say "so and so was at this level" to justify a gap in logic, that doesn't work in films. That is one thing SW got right. Go take a look at the train wreck that was the Super Maro Bros. movie for further proof of this point.

Quote: Sephiroth stabbed him in the upper part of his ribcage. Go watch it again.

just did, it was the shoulder, where for upper arm meets the torso. Like I said, no way cloud could have fought on with his sword arm considering that wound, doesn't matter how tough you are. try again. :tongue:

Look, I know that Cloud got stabbed in his sword arm, and that probably would have f***ed up some stuff, but an adrenaline rush can be a very powerful thing. It makes us forget pain and focus on survival. And after that crushing blow, the only way Cloud could have survived is by killing Sephiroth. Which he then proceeded to do. Now, I admit that him seeming fine even after the final battle was a bit facetious, but it would be feasible (at least in FFVII physics world) for him to do what he did even after being stabbed.

Adrenaline is one thing, limit breaks are one thing, but having muscles and tendons severed is totally another. After taking a stab wound to the shoulder, where the arm meets the torso, the muscles that control movement of that arm would have been partially or completely severed. Even partial severing would mean that there was no way in hell cloud could even lift that sword for the rest of the fight, complete severing would mean it would be unlikely he would ever move that arm again. An adrenaline rush wouldn't have done squat because that can only fuel and strengthen muscles, muscles that are still joined and capable of movement. Even a limit break would technically have been useless. Would be like severing a string or two on a puppet yet expecting it to move exactly like it did before. In other words, not effin likely.

Okay I just want to get this cleared up. No one can be revived when they are stabbed with Sephiroth's sword. It says something about this in the game. Once you are killed with it you can't be revived. It is impossible. Go play the game and see if you can spot where it says this. Trust me it does.

Also let's get something else cleared up. Sure you all say abut Cloud's wound on his shoulder or wherever but let me say soething about SW. They can shoot spirits with guns. The bullets would go straight through them so arguing about Cloud's wound is a complete load of crap. If they can shoot Spirits in TSW then it is more likely that Cloud would be able to recover from that wound in time to kick Sephiroth's ass.

Not neccessarily. Spirits are obviously not real (or if they are, the way we portray them could never be how they truly exist) and therefore, each story gets to make up its own rules about them. However, humans do exist, and severing tendons and that kind of crap would actually probably not allow Cloud to use that arm for the rest of the battle, if not his life. That's a rule in the real world that must be followed. With spirits, you can do whatever you want. You can make them physical or metaphysical entities. So no. Being able to shoot spirits (having their own rules) in one story, does not dictate Cloud being able to move his arm (having to follow laws of the universe) in a completely different story. Your point is imprecise, incorrect, and irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Xurts, consider for a moment the attacks most final fantasy characters withstand. Guns, knives, savage physical attacks, bites, claws, lightning, fire, meteors, and other such lethal occurrences raining havoc upon them. And you mean to tell that you think such things cause unconsciousness? Tell you what, go outside in the next thunderstorm carrying some sort of metal rod on a rooftop, and tell a friend of yours to just slap you to wake up when the inevitable occurs. Just to test that theory. I mean it will only cause unconsciousness... right?

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You are confusing video games with real life. FF is fiction, it's not real. Video games provide fun and entertainment, they're not meant to be taken literally. kay?

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Personally, regarding FFVII, I've felt that the reason RedXIII's father didn't get a soft is the same reason they didn't use a phoenix down on Aerieth. They were too slow in acting. Seto (I think that was the name of RedXIII's pop) shielded his family from stoning arrows while they escaped, so they likely didn't have an opportunity to go back for quite some time. And we all know what a mess cloud was when Aerieth got the shaft, It's likely he didn't think of using one until it's too late (smooth move there spikey). Though, it is fun to criticize both plot points, and that this was never mentioned considering both victims could have been saved from there predicament with a couple gil and some thought.

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Too slow to act? lol. You're saying that if I leave someone with a certain status ailment for too long, I won't be able to heal them? No. Time has nothing to do with it.

I'm sure that the arrows caused a stronger type of petrification, one that could not be healed with a Soft.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

One problem with that, your using video game logic to justify gaps in storytelling.

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Wrong again. If you watch the movie, Cloud uses several Limit Breaks. This is made even more obvious by the Spirit Energy that surrounds his sword just before he executes one. He uses Braver (against Bahamut Sin), Climhazzard (what he used to finish off Bahamut Sin), Blade Beam twice (against Loz and Sephiroth), Omnislash V5 (against Sephiroth), and a modified version of Finishing Touch (against Kadaj).

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

just did, it was the shoulder, where for upper arm meets the torso. Like I said, no way cloud could have fought on with his sword arm considering that wound, doesn't matter how tough you are. try again.

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It was in that general region. You're forgetting that this is fiction. Cloud has had much worse injuries, yet he manages to survive. He was stabbed right through the chest, yet he still managed to throw Sephiroth down into the Lifestream and survive. Sephiroth was somehow cut in half when he fell down there, yet he managed to survive. It's a smurfing video game/movie, it is not reality.

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can shoot spirits with guns. The bullets would go straight through them so arguing about Cloud's wound is a complete load of crap. If they can shoot Spirits in TSW then it is more likely that Cloud would be able to recover from that wound in time to kick Sephiroth's ass.

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In SW, the point is made that the phantoms are composed of an energy wave that runs totally opposite to Gaea's energy. When two opposing energy waves collide, they cancel eachother out. So infusing bullets, explosives, shields, and what have you with energy patterns similar to gaea is how the humans fought against the phantoms, but without a complete energy wave, the best they could do was temporarily hurt the phantoms, not kill them.

as for cloud miraculously fighting with an arm that just had it's tendons severed from the shoulder down, it's just pure fanboyish rubbish. In other words the status quo from Nomura.

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You are confusing video games with real life. FF is fiction, it's not real. Video games provide fun and entertainment, they're not meant to be taken literally. kay?

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Believe or not, storytelling requires that there be some rules and logic to the story. And you mean to tell me that being hit by a flaming meteor or lightning bolt would only cause unconsciousness, and that a phoenix down, or Phoenix feather only cures unconsciousness? now your just fumbling for any old way to win that point.

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Too slow to act? lol. You're saying that if I leave someone with a certain status ailment for too long, I won't be able to heal them? No. Time has nothing to do with it.

I'm sure that the arrows caused a stronger type of petrification, one that could not be healed with a Soft.

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First of all, you face the same archers, and they stone your party, and the stone status they inflict is cured with softs. So, no. The arrows have nothing to do with it.

Have you ever heard of how people can be technically dead, their heart stops beating and they stop breathing, yet can be resuscitated if quick and effective action is taken? Same principle in the storytelling can be applied. Or you can just criticize the gaping plot holes where cloud didn't pull out a phoenix down and grandpa didn't just bust out a soft for poor ol Seto. either/or.

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Wrong again. If you watch the movie, Cloud uses several Limit Breaks. This is made even more obvious by the Spirit Energy that surrounds his sword just before he executes one. He uses Braver (against Bahamut Sin), Climhazzard (what he used to finish off Bahamut Sin), Blade Beam twice (against Loz and Sephiroth), Omnislash V5 (against Sephiroth), and a modified version of Finishing Touch (against Kadaj).

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And once again, your using video game logic and trying to apply to a movie. It doesn't work. They are two different mediums. Sakaguchi understood it which is why he went the route he did while making spirits within. In video games, your playing for fun. In a movie, the story and direction and writing is what makes the film enjoyable, and the lack of it is what makes a movie suck. Movies and video games are two entirely different mediums, and trying to apply the rules for one to another is impossible.

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It was in that general region. You're forgetting that this is fiction. Cloud has had much worse injuries, yet he manages to survive. He was stabbed right through the chest, yet he still managed to throw Sephiroth down into the Lifestream and survive. Sephiroth was somehow cut in half when he fell down there, yet he managed to survive. It's a smurfing video game/movie, it is not reality.

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So first cloud took the hit in the torso, then you change your mind (the torso and shoulders are two totally different body parts BTW.) Then your calling the movie fiction, and it doesn't matter where cloud was hit, now your saying he could take a wound like that? You just won't accept that your argument is beat will you? You're argument is flailing like a spastic reindeer on an ice rink. Just admit that Nomura blew it when it came to storytelling, like he always does.

Part of the thing about this movie though, is that it didn't really further the storyline of FFVII at all. The only even remotely significant thing that happened that coincided with the original game was Sephiroth coming back and then Cloud again defeating him with Omnislash.

The major mistake that Nomura made when it came to Cloud beating Sephy was this: the solo battle where you use Omnislash to finish Sephy in the game was purely a mental battle. Thus, even though the party had sustained devestating injuries, Cloud was still able to beat Sephy. Nomura then tried to make this battle a physcial one.

If there is any plot point that failed to execute in that movie, it was that one. It just kind of blew up in Nomura's face because, as has been stated here, the injury Cloud sustained to his shoulder would have rendered him immobile. By trying to execute a terrible plot point, Nomura opened up a gaping wide plot hole. This was his most dire error in this movie.

Also, let us not forget how this whole thing began. This was supposed to be just a twenty minute thing that kind of showed what happened to Cloud after VII. In the original, there was just some background music playing while Cloud rode around on his motorcycle and talked with his various former party members and such. From that, it grew and grew until it became what we now know as Advent Children.

The only real storyline is, as I believe I have mentioned before, Cloud getting rid of his guilt over Zack and Aerith's deaths. The rest of it is just eye candy to please the fanboys. Though I personally was quite pleased with the flashy eye candy provided, I do wish that they would have elaborated on the storyline.

The problem was, that storyline would have made only about a fifteen minute movie, thus the flashy stuff came into play. And of course, what would FFVII be without Sephiroth. Another fanboy pleaser. Nothing more. Sephiroth served no real purpose in the ultimate storyline

You see, they knew that the real storyline was quite boring so they tried to distract you and make you think that the main story was the revival of Sephiroth and that Cloud's guilt was just a side plot. Of course, if they had added to that storyline and made us realize why it was important and necessary, it would have made the storyline more interesting, and made the movie more about it, rather than the stupid sub-plot of reviving Sephy.

Of course, when you're dealing with Nomura, you have to expect the flashy scenes. He said himself in an interview and I quote: "We didn't care if people really couldn't jump that far, or stay airborne that long. As long as it looked cool, we put it in there." Now, if this was a spin-off of The Matrix, that would have worked. Unfortunately this is Final Fantasy.

And not just any Final Fantasy, but FFVII. One of the deepest, most meaningful storylines of the series, and my personal favorite game. We expect more than just spiffy jump moves. I want to see another beautiful story. I mean, of course they only had 90 minutes to tell the story instead of 40 hours, but I still watched that movie expecting a storyline.

I must admit, the flashy, over-the-top stuff was done really well. It kept me entertained, but it didn't leave a lasting impression on me. It's not a movie that I'm going to remember years from now as a great step forwards in the Final Fantasy series. More like four steps backwards. The storyline was dull and unimportant and the characters had no depth or development. It seems that the only thing that didn't really matter (the flash stuff) was the stuff they did right.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

having to follow laws of the universe

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If it had to follow the laws of the universe then there would be no magic in any final fantasy and the spirits would not be there in SW.

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

First of all, you face the same archers, and they stone your party, and the stone status they inflict is cured with softs. So, no. The arrows have nothing to do with it.

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Really I don't remember ever having to fight those archers.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

Spirits are obviously not real

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ahem yes and of course neither are the characters in final fantasy thus you could make up whatever story you want about them.
So therefore if my point is incorrect imprecise and irrelevant then Your point is imprecise, irrelevant and incorrect about spirits not being real. Neither are the final fantasy characters so you could make up whatever story you wanted about them.

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Originally Posted by f f freak

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

First of all, you face the same archers, and they stone your party, and the stone status they inflict is cured with softs. So, no. The arrows have nothing to do with it.

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Really I don't remember ever having to fight those archers

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Cosmo Canyon when you're uncovering the truth about Seto, you fight spectral archers and they stone your party, the boss also has helpers that use stone arrows as I recall.


as for AC's flaws, I could deal with the loopy story, I mean it's obvious they aimed for pure action with this one, But they failed to make it coherent. One example is that Cloud is supposedly stronger after his epiphany with vincent due to his being absolved of his guilt. But there is never really a point in the film where is there is definitive proof of more power. One way of doing this would have been to have one of the Seph clones floor him with a specific attack, and draw blood in a early scene, and later to have the same seph clone perform the same attack, only to have it defeated by sheer skill and power. Sadly, this never happens. In the motorcycle chase there is just flailing, leaping, and inexplicable flying, Sure it LOOKS stylish, but part of attacking stylishly is functionality, you have to be able to actually do something effective with that style or it just looks stupid.

I also mentioned before, does Nomura expect us to buy that Tifa being to turn in mid air in a split second and leap off a wall she was thrown towards, yet not be able to dodge Loz's attack despite him pausing to snicker for a few seconds (which is at least two more seconds then it took for her to do that mid-air turn) is good storytelling?

Clouds inexplicable burst of strength after Sepiroth maimed him is just the icing on the cake to the stupidity. "The whole "I want to take away what is most important to you" line would have been more effective and chilling if they had kept cloud maimed, his swordsman days over. And had the rest of the party act and fight on clouds behalf. Thus showing that Sephiroth CAN'T take away what is most important to cloud, because what is most important to him, his remaining loved ones in this world, refuse to be taken away or let cloud be taken away from them. Thus laying somewhat of a mind funk on sephiroth, who has never really known love his entire life, and shaking him enough that the party, CAN defeat him.

Then there was geostigma. Why? What? HUH? Was there even a point? In the scheme of things, did the plight of geostigma really play out or mean a thing in the overall story? It just felt so tacked on.

Lastly, Aerieth. AC's defininition of Deus Ex Machina. Having her show up and council cloud was contrived, having her throw him the final distance through the omega flare was silly, having her resurrect him was stupid, and having her show up at the end in full physical form, interacting with the physical world around her along with Zack was just plain awful. Leave her be, she's dead. Arrrgghhh.

But yah, I have a lot of issues With AC. I personally don't consider FFVII to be the best there ever was, is, and will be. But I do consider it a good RPG and respect it. They could have done so much better, and I have so many fond memories of the Square that was that I hope they fire Nomura someday and offer Sakaguchi a fleet of porsches if thats what it takes to put the storytelling back into Final Fantasy.

f f freak, you have taken what I said completely out of context. Spirits are not real, neither are the characters from FFVII. However, the characters are human, and humans are very real. So, yes, they have to follow basic laws of the universe. One of the things that I didn't like about this movie was the ridiculous flying and jumping around. If there had been a reason for it, then maybe they could have gotten away with it. But they just said, "Oh yes, people can jump the length of four football fields easily."

Now, about what you said about spirits and magic not being laws of the universe. I have two explanations for this. One. They are in a made-up world, and magic isn't real in our world, so there are no laws to dictate it in the FFVII world. The other explanation would be this:

At one point during the game, Sephiroth contends that the word "magic" should never be used because it's very unscientific. I would say that since materia is what gives humans these powers and that materia comes from the planet, I could see them getting the powers of the planet. Let's see here, fire, water, earth, wind, all that good stuff kind of comes from the planet. So, using a power that comes from the planet, could give you that power. It's not magic, it's just extreme technology.

And, weren't they alien spirits in SW? You mean, they came from another planet, and didn't have bodies like humans? Wow! I guess they need maybe they weren't spirits in the usual sense. They were kind of alien spirits. You mean, it might not have been magic, it could have been technology again? You see, mankind has always thought that things that they couldn't explain were magic. The Norse saw lightning and didn't know what it was. Thus Thor was born. Advanced technology that we don't understand could seem very much like magic. But as you said, it is just a story, and magic doens't exist in the real world, therefore the creators of the story get to dictate the laws it follows.

I'm done wasting my time with you. If you're that determined to nit-pick absolutely everything in the movie, and refuse to listen or understand any of the concepts, then whatever. I'm tired of explaining all of the things that you neglected to pay any attention to because you were too busy bashing it. If you don't like it, then fine. Go watch a movie that you enjoy. gtfo

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Originally Posted by f f freak

I think AC was like ten times better than Spirits Within. Spirits Within had nothing to do with Final Fantasy. It should not have been called Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.

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I agree. PLus, AC was probably made thinking that the people who watched it had aleardy beaten the game. If you have, it adds a whole diffrent insight to the film, aside form SW, wich was far to jumpy without hardly any backstory to help with the plot.

As a stand-alone film, AC is probably about the same as SW (actully I think AC is probably better, jsut becuase of the action:D ) but with FF7's plot to backup AC, it's much better than SW.

Edit: k, I just read the rest of the posts. Aralith, it's a FICTIONAL movie. Not ment to be taken so seriously. If you wanted a perfect, well thought out plotline without any miner holes or anything of the like, you should look somewhere els than a fictional movie that's based on a VIDEO GAME. Also, about the whole Cloud suddenly becoing stronger after his meeting with Vincent, he was strong enough to take on the 3 white heads the whole time. It was the fact that he didnt belive in himself, hence what Cloud says when he talkes to Tifa about im not being able to protect anyone anymore. It's one of the movie's hidden message things.

Okay, Distain. For the record, I enjoyed the movie, that doesn't mean I'm not going to point out its flaws. I'm a movie critic (not professionaly, I just like to) and I am going to still point out holes in the plot. No movie is perfect, they all have minor flaws in them. I loved AC, and because of that, I was able to recognize the inherent flaws in it. Now, on with the rest of what you said.

What I'm talking about is not a minor plot hole. It's actually a pretty major one. You know, the whole movie is kind of hinged on Cloud defeating Sephiroth, which couldn't have happened (by physical laws) if Cloud had been wounded in the shoulder like that. That's not exactly nit-picking. Also, you say that it is a fictional movie. I concur, but so is the game. How many major plot holes are there in the game? I haven't come across any. Why shouldn't I expect the same quality from a movie that's a sequel to that game.

Cuase Square's a buch of cheap B*stards who wouldent shell out enough money to make a decent sequel:D I like AC too, and I'm awar of the flaws, I just close my eyes and ignore them, or fill them in with my own idea's of what happend/s

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Originally Posted by Aralith

You know, the whole movie is kind of hinged on Cloud defeating Sephiroth, which couldn't have happened (by physical laws) if Cloud had been wounded in the shoulder like that.

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It's a movie. And if you keep going on about the physical laws and crap like that but you can't find any plot holes about the game then let me introduce you to one. If in the game they can survive wolf bites, huge fireballs, Being shocked by lightining and all the other stuff that happens to them then I am sure that Cloud would be able to pick up his sword and slash Sephiroth to bits. If we're talking about physical laws and because they are humans and stuff all of them would be dead or severely crippled so therefore by physical laws and crap they would not be alive to be in a movie.

Actually, Cloud does have trouble moving his arm shortly therafter. Could it be possible he was hedging for his wound with an overapplication of spirit energy to move his arm for him, instead of doing it mechanically?

Really? I didn't notice any problems with his arm afterwards. Well, not entriely true. He is kind of holding it in pain after the fight, but other than that, I didn't notice anything. Especially during the fight. So, what is this overapplication of spirit energy you speak of? Can you please elaborate on that?

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Originally Posted by f f freak

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Originally Posted by Aralith

You know, the whole movie is kind of hinged on Cloud defeating Sephiroth, which couldn't have happened (by physical laws) if Cloud had been wounded in the shoulder like that.

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It's a movie. And if you keep going on about the physical laws and crap like that but you can't find any plot holes about the game then let me introduce you to one. If in the game they can survive wolf bites, huge fireballs, Being shocked by lightning and all the other stuff that happens to them then I am sure that Cloud would be able to pick up his sword and slash Sephiroth to bits. If we're talking about physical laws and because they are humans and stuff all of them would be dead or severely crippled so therefore by physical laws and crap they would not be alive to be in a movie.

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Once again, your trying to apply video game logic to movie logic and vice versa. In video games, yes they survive all sorts of lethal occurrences, but not without magical items such as potions, phoenix downs, materia, and other mystical what not along with a healthy dose of video game contrivance.

In a movie however, there must be a grater emphasis on story telling. Could the film makers have a meteor strike cloud and have the party use an X-potion to heal the damage? Yes but it would look incredibly stupid. Even in lord of the rings, which has characters coming back from the dead and falling through the earth, there are rules put in place on all the mystical aspects. The witch king in Return of the King is defeated not because he fought a more powerful warrior, but because he wasn't aware that he wasn't fighting a man, and he is immortal under the condition that no man can kill him. Logic often trumps brute strength, even in mystical plot lines. The best Storytellers have a gift for involving their audience on a cerebral level, by making the audience involved on acct that they can see and understand everything thats happening in their minds eye, and have it be totally believable to them. Yet there was none applied to any part of Advent Children, especially not the final battle. There was no way cloud could take a wound of that magnitude and continue fighting in a cinematic storytelling sense. Powerful he may be, but the film would have us believe he is mortal, and thus cloud is subject to mortal failings like having the flesh fail due to severe wounds. Having him continue the fight like nothing was wrong removed the believeability and whatever dramatic strength nomura was shooting for.

Personally, I think the movie abandoned any dramatic strength when they pointlessly rehashed the games ending cinema, then pick a nice round number (498 years prior) to flashback too. You can accuse me of nitpicking, but there is such a thing as beating a live horse to death. I understand the film is a fan servicing piece of fluff, but that was just taking fan service a bit too far.

SW sucks.
AC doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Jesse1

SW sucks.
AC doesn't

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QFT

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

In a movie however, there must be a grater emphasis on story telling. Could the film makers have a meteor strike cloud and have the party use an X-potion to heal the damage? Yes but it would look incredibly stupid. Even in lord of the rings, which has characters coming back from the dead and falling through the earth, there are rules put in place on all the mystical aspects. The witch king in Return of the King is defeated not because he fought a more powerful warrior, but because he wasn't aware that he wasn't fighting a man, and he is immortal under the condition that no man can kill him. Logic often trumps brute strength, even in mystical plot lines. The best Storytellers have a gift for involving their audience on a cerebral level, by making the audience involved on acct that they can see and understand everything thats happening in their minds eye, and have it be totally believable to them. Yet there was none applied to any part of Advent Children, especially not the final battle. There was no way cloud could take a wound of that magnitude and continue fighting in a cinematic storytelling sense. Powerful he may be, but the film would have us believe he is mortal, and thus cloud is subject to mortal failings like having the flesh fail due to severe wounds. Having him continue the fight like nothing was wrong removed the believeability and whatever dramatic strength nomura was shooting for.

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I thought that they probably gave up the believeability and whatever dramatic strength nomura was shooting for when evryone started flying through the air mysticle creatures pop out of no-where. And wich flashback do you mean with the whole 498 years prior thing?

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Personally, I think the movie abandoned any dramatic strength when they pointlessly rehashed the games ending cinema, then pick a nice round number (498 years prior) to flashback too. You can accuse me of nitpicking, but there is such a thing as beating a live horse to death. I understand the film is a fan servicing piece of fluff, but that was just taking fan service a bit too far.

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You do realize why they chose 498 years don't you? The ending of the game that was shown at the beginning of the film said, in the game at least, 500 years later. Well, since AC takes place two years after the events of FFVII, they were actually choosing the correct number of years to display. I still don't know why they showed the end of the game at the beginning, but they do have a reason for saying "498 years earlier."

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Originally Posted by Distain

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Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

In a movie however, there must be a grater emphasis on story telling. Could the film makers have a meteor strike cloud and have the party use an X-potion to heal the damage? Yes but it would look incredibly stupid. Even in lord of the rings, which has characters coming back from the dead and falling through the earth, there are rules put in place on all the mystical aspects. The witch king in Return of the King is defeated not because he fought a more powerful warrior, but because he wasn't aware that he wasn't fighting a man, and he is immortal under the condition that no man can kill him. Logic often trumps brute strength, even in mystical plot lines. The best Storytellers have a gift for involving their audience on a cerebral level, by making the audience involved on acct that they can see and understand everything thats happening in their minds eye, and have it be totally believable to them. Yet there was none applied to any part of Advent Children, especially not the final battle. There was no way cloud could take a wound of that magnitude and continue fighting in a cinematic storytelling sense. Powerful he may be, but the film would have us believe he is mortal, and thus cloud is subject to mortal failings like having the flesh fail due to severe wounds. Having him continue the fight like nothing was wrong removed the believeability and whatever dramatic strength nomura was shooting for.

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I thought that they probably gave up the believeability and whatever dramatic strength nomura was shooting for when evryone started flying through the air mysticle creatures pop out of no-where. And wich flashback do you mean with the whole 498 years prior thing?

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The fantasy aspect I don't have a problem with. The fact that there isn't even an attempt at storytelling at anytime in the film.

And yes, I'm referring to the beginning of the film. Where we see the ending of FFVII re-shot using AC's CGI engine. typically starting a film off a scene set in the future is done to set up the story that will follow. Like in Citizen cane where you see the main character, supposedly dead and the entire story is a flashback. Or in "It's a Wonderful Life" where the film begins with the angels talking about the main character committing suicide, and the first 3/4 of the film is a flashback about all the events that lead him to that, and the angel interfering.

But nope, AC just sorta, sticks it in there for no discernible reason whatsoever. Like hey, how bout having cloud with a busted sword arm telling the story of how sephiroth came back and crippled him, and his friends saved him. Or maybe have Someone who's life was dramatically affected by the events in AC, like maybe having one of the three seph clones survive and be a good guy and he tells the tale to some villagers he just saved from a monster. Instead, nope. Its fan service. Stupid fan service. Like, am i supposed to get all giddy that we are seeing the ending sequence again. Am I supposed to squeal like a schoolgirl about seeing RedXIII and his children better animated? Cuz it certainly didn't do jack for the story.

EDIT: You can accuse me of nitpicking, but I think this just shows the lack of focus AC has. Nomura stated that if he thought something was cool, he stuck it in regardless of whether it was believeable. I guess he thought starting the film off this way was "cool" as well. Try and stir all the fuzzy warm memories of FFVII istead of, y'know, starting the film off with something that actually meant a crap to the overall storyline of the film.

That scene was pretty much just there to show of the movies CGI by upgrading a scene from the game. I didn't really have a problem with this, since the entire movie is designed as one massive FFVII fanboy wank-fest anyway.

While we're at it, here are a couple of things that I found irredeemably stupid about AC’s plot:

1. They never bother to explain why Rufus wanted Jenova's head. I mean, he must have SOME reason for carrying it around and potentially putting the entire planet at risk rather than destroying it. Why did he go to fetch it in the first place? How did he KNOW that it was still there in the first place?

2. There is seemingly no reason as to why Aeris would wait until the end of the movie to cure everyone's Geostigma. I mean I don't know about you but if I had God like powers that could end people's suffering I wouldn't wait until my sort-of-almost crush from when I was alive defeated his nemesis and learned the meaning of life before I started to cure everyone.

3. Sephiroth's soul was supposedly divided up into all 3 SHM (or at least that's what we are to assume "remnants of Sephiroth" means) and yet Sephiroth was some how able to obtain his original form with only Kadaj. How does that work?

I mean don't get me wrong, Spirits Within was a cliche, boring-ass movie but at least it all generally made sense. When a movie doesn't even try to explain some of its biggest plot points it kind of screams out 'poor story telling'.

I like TSW better

there I said it!