I've play the game a few times, but have only recently beaten it. Now, what i don't get with the ending is:
1) How does Kuja manage to do Ultama(sp)?
2) Who is Necron, and why is he there?
3) Who says the ending speech?
Printable View
I've play the game a few times, but have only recently beaten it. Now, what i don't get with the ending is:
1) How does Kuja manage to do Ultama(sp)?
2) Who is Necron, and why is he there?
3) Who says the ending speech?
1).....what do you mean? It's Kuja's trance uber-move, why wouldn't he be able to cast it? The real question is why didn't he just cast it in the first place.
2) Refer to this: http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=87715. Very indepth discussion, some of the posts at least. What it amounts to basically is that Necron is the....essence (can't think of the right word) of the Iifa Tree, and while fighting it your party is actually dead, killed by Kuja's Ultima spell. After the fight, Kuja brings your spirits back to Gaia. That's all just speculation, but the argument does make sense. Makes more sense than Necron just being a deus ex machina, but that is also possible.
3) I think several people say it. I think at first Vivi is speaking, and then Beatrix, and then Steiner (haven't seen it in a while, can't remember exactly what order it happens in). But Vivi is saying at least half of it.
Don't bother trying to understand these theories, the more you think about it the more damage it does to your brain. It's how Square makes more money. Eoff pays a portion of it's profit to Square when threads like these materialize. Since I never fell for their devious tactics here are my guesses
1) He is skilled with magic and had enough MP to cast it
2) Necron is the final boss in the game. I have absolutely no idea why he was there either
3) What ending speech?
1) Yup. Kuja doesn't cast it. Trance Kuja does. I think I remember Ultima almost killed him, and he used it as a last resort because he had already lost to Zidane etc. That's as good a reason as any not to use it :D
2)....oh God not this question again. Necron is the Wizard of Oz's brother and whilst the WoO tries to help people, Necron doesn't. He's the anti-WoO. (SPOILER)That's not actually true.
3) I remeber somebody saying that it's Mikoto at the end. Either that or Vivi. Hell I thought it was Garnet at first.
1.) Because Ultima looks badass, duh. But seriously, it's just Trance Kuja's big old desperation move.
2.) Final boss. Darkness of Eternity. Epitome of evil and Deus ex Machina final bosses. Not meant to be thought about. You absolutely will not find an answer. You aren't supposed to think about it. Tribute to older final bosses. Now never, ever ask this question again, they might hear you! :cat:
3.) I believe it's Mikoto at first, then Vivi, as (SPOILER)Vivi passed away.
OMFG! VIVI DIES????
Sorry....just thought I'd ruin the spoiler. Oh I'm so mean.
When the hell does Vivi die? Vivi does not die! But if he does, when? And how? Why has this been kept secret? We need answers! Vivi doesn't die!?!??!
Apart from it being trance kuja's desperation move, is there anything special about it. And for that matter, Holy.
Maybe we should have a FFIX-2 and all shall be quiet. :|
well, as to the whole vivi-dies theory, you never see him in the end, which naturally makes some people think he's dead.
If your computer lets you go straight into a .txt file
This will answer all questions...
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/f...sy_ix_plot.txt
And Zeromus_X Necron does have an explanation no matter what you say... *cough*main part of the Iifa tree*cough*
Just read that .txt file or you know what here I'll post it right in!
Warning LONG
"Part 1: Necron
I believe Necron, the final opponent fought in Final Fantasy IX, is the
central function of the Iifa Tree, the mechanism that interefered with the
Cycle of Souls. To put it another way, Necron is the true form of the Iifa
Tree, that aspect of it that lies beyond the material plane and intereferes
with the cycle of Gaia's souls on the spiritual plane.
For evidence of this, we must first look to Garland's observations and
conclusions concerning life:
(In Pandemonium on Terra.)
"But think for a moment... Isn't life death itself? It must kill other
life-forms to survive..."
"Sometimes it even kills those with whom is shares blood..."
"To live is to give life meaning, yet one must take others' lives to
survive..."
"A mature civilization becomes aware of this paradox..."
"Terra's souls will sleep until they forget such nonsense. They will begin a
new life in a new dimension."
"It's a world in which life and death become one..."
"That is the dimension in which we are meant to live, as beings that
transcend life and death!"
We find very similar conclusions stated by Necron:
(Above the Hill of Despair.)
"All life bears death from birth."
"Life fears death, but lives only to die."
"It starts with anxiety."
"Anxiety becomes fear."
"Fear leads to anger... anger leads to hate... hate leads to suffering..."
"The only cure for this fear is total destruction."
"...Now, the theory is undeniable."
"Kuja's action proves it. All things live to perish."
"At last, life has uncovered this truth. Now, it is time to end this world."
...
"I exist for one purpose..."
"To return everything back to the zero world, where there is no life and no
crystal to give life."
"In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world that all life
desires."
With this in mind, recall that Garland created the Iifa Tree. That it would be
aware of Garland's (him being its maker and having assigned it its function)
beliefs and could have sought to analyze them as a result -- with the actions
of another of Garland's creations, Kuja, as the basis of the analyzation -- is
something to be considered.
Something else to consider is that Garland states that the Iifa Tree's true
form was not the Tree itself, that being only its material form:
Garland
"We must sort the souls."
"I want to disrupt Gaia's cycle and drain its souls, filling the void with
the souls of Terra."
"To speed the cycle of souls is to speed the work as a whole. Thus, war..."
"And in time... Gaia's souls are gone, and Gaia becomes Terra."
Garland
"You saw it with your own eyes. You saw the Iifa Tree and the Mist it emits."
"The role of the Iifa Tree is that of Soul Divider. The Mist you see
comprises the stagnant souls of Gaia..."
Zidane
"Oh yeah? But we stopped the Mist! So much for that!"
Garland
"ALL YOU SAW WAS THE BACK OF THE TREE..."
"Even now, the Iifa Tree blocks the flow of Gaia's souls, while it lets
those of Terra flow freely."
"Come and see for yourself. See the true form of this planet."
Zidane
"What is this?"
Garland
"Think of it as an observatory. A place to measure the radiance of Gaia and
Terra."
Zidane
"What are you talking about? And what is this weird light?"
Garland
"That is the center of the planet. The end and the beginning of the cycle of
souls."
"The light remains Gaia's, for now, but when the blue changes to crimson,
all will belong to Terra, and its restoration will be complete."
"THAT IS WHY I WRAPPED UP THE LIGHT IN THE IIFA TREE, TO PREVENT THE CYCLE
OF THE JUDGEMENT OF SOULS ON GAIA FROM INSIDE THE PLANET."
"SUCH IS THE IIFA TREE'S TRUE PURPOSE, ITS TRUE FORM. ALL YOU SAW WAS ITS
MATERIAL FORM."
"The flow of Gaia's souls cannot be changed simply by stopping the disposal
of Mist."
(Capitalized for emphasis.)
This would mean that the mechanism which interrupts the Cycle of Souls was
something not on the physical plane. With this in mind, recall that when
Kuja is defeated, he says that he if he is going to die, he isn't going
alone, meaning he intended to kill Zidane and the others with his final
attack. He then proceeds to blast them with an Ultima Spell, their bodies
being engulfed in flames and vanishing:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ed/Screwed.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ihilation2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ihilation5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ihilation7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ihilation8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ihilation9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...hilation10.jpg
Now keep in mind further that after the screen fades out, when it fades back
in, we find Zidane and the others laying in an area that ISN'T the area where
Kuja was fought, and which is called the "Hill of Despair" according to the
Menu Screen:
(Where Kuja was fought.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...inalBattle.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...nalBattle2.jpg
(The Hill of Despair.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...lofDespair.jpg
("Hill of Despair" on the Menu Screen.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...lofDespair.jpg
In addition to this, the moans of tormented souls can be heard in the
background.
In other words, the implication is that when Zidane and the others were hit
by Kuja's Spell, they were KILLED, and then came face-to-face with the Iifa
Tree's true form on the spirtual plane, it attempting to dismiss them from
Gaia as it had done to all the souls up to this point, as was the purpose
Garland said the Tree had been given.
Also consider that after the defeat of Necron, the gateway to Memoria explodes
and the Iifa Tree goes into a spasm, flailing its vines and roots about, then
dying soon after. We can be certain that the Tree died, as Mikoto can be seen
briefly during the ending walking across a vine of the Tree, it no longer
violent and thrashing. For that matter, had the Tree not been undone, we would
be left to wonder why Gaia's assimilation by Terra was never completed, seeing
as how Kuja said that the assimilation was nigh at hand before the final
battle with him.
Necron being the core mechanism of the Tree would account for the Tree's
demise, whereas Necron not being so would leave us to question why the Tree
died for seemingly no reason, first going into violent spasms immediately
after Necron was defeated, then being dead shortly thereafter.
Something else possibly worth consideration is what Garland says concerning
the radiance of Gaia and Terra:
Garland
"That is the center of the planet. The end and the beginning of the cycle of
souls."
"The light remains Gaia's, for now, but when the blue changes to crimson, all
will belong to Terra, and its restoration will be complete."
The radiance of Gaia is blue, whereas the radiance of Terra is red. Necron
is blue, yet when casting certain Spells, changes its color to red.
Yet another point of consideration is the similarity between the faces seen in
Oeilvert and Necron's face:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...erranFaces.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ecronsFace.jpg
This suggests that Terran technology was employed in Necron's creation.
One final point of consideration is that the Iifa Tree theme and the Final
Battle theme -- consisting of the music heard on the Hill of Despair and
during the battle with Necron -- follow the same theme, with the two pieces
being variations of this theme. A similar example would be the reuse of the
Prelude theme throughout the Final Fantasy series, the same theme always being
used though in a new variation.
In summary, with Garland and Necron expressing similar views on life, and
Necron's own words showing that it was testing a theory involving that view of
life before concluding that the view was accurate (which would make sense for
it to do if Garland were its creator), we can possibly conclude the same point
of origin for this belief. Further, with Garland suggesting that the true form
of the Iifa Tree did not lie on the physical plane, and with Zidane and the
others being killed in battle by Kuja only to find themselves confronted by
a creature spouting views similar to Garland's and changing into the two
colors of the Planets that the Iifa Tree served as a gateway between (blue for
Gaia and red for Terra), as well as Necron sharing the same theme as the Iifa
Tree, we can assume a possible connection to the Iifa Tree on Necron's part.
The death of the Tree following Necron's defeat allows us to confirm this.
Points That Would Possibly Contest This Concept:
*Point: Necron says "I am eternal" when defeated. Would this not immediately
disprove Necron as being the central mechanism of the Iifa Tree, seeing as
how Garland created it?
*Response: Not necessarily. Necron says "I am eternal" upon being defeated,
yes, but that does not necessarily mean that Necron was saying "I have always
been and always will be." "Eternal" is ambiguous. It CAN mean "Always has
been and always will be," but it can also mean "Having no end." In other
words, Necron might have been saying "I will never perish." This certainly
isn't a foreign declaration to villains upon their demise. For that matter,
Zeromus, the final opponent of Final Fantasy IV, and the incarnation of
Zemus' hatred, made a similar declaration at the moment of his own death:
(Zeromus' final words.)
Zeromus: I will not...perish...so long as evil...dwells in the hearts...of
mankind. G...gh... GRRRAAGH!
(Necron's final words.)
"This is not the end."
"I am eternal..."
"...as long as there is life and death..."
However, there's little question as to whether or not Zeromus was simply
making a boast before his death, something which he did not anticipate.
Something else to keep in mind is that Final Fantasy IX was a game designed
to pay tribute to past Final Fantasy games. The ending boss battles of Final
Fantasy IV and IX are very similar in that in both the party is wiped out,
only to be brought back from defeat by other party members lending their
strength. Also in both cases, the defeated final foe declares their
self-proclaimed eternal nature, despite all indication and the context of
the situation suggesting it to not be the case.
For that matter, it should be noted that Soulcage, the Mist distributing
function of the Iifa Tree, also boasted that it would not be defeated by
Zidane and the others, despite it being destroyed when it actually fought
them:
"I have seen the end of my thousand-year life, and it is not now."
'You cannot stop me."
"It is futile even to try."
While one might argue that it's a different situation because Soulcage's boast
came before its battle with its killers, there's the obvious fact that such
statements as "I am immortal! This cannot BE!" come from defeated villains on
a regular basis, whether it be in stories outside of the Final Fantasy series
or within it. A good example of such lines being used within the Final Fantasy
series is Final Fantasy: Tactics, which uses such lines no less than four
times during the course of the game:
(Note: These are all the dying words of the characters in question.)
Queklain:"I'm immortal...how can I be losing....? It's impossible. I can't...
die...until he resurrects..."
Velius: "Whooooah!! They're just humans....!"
Elidibs: "This can't be happening... I'm not supposed to lose..."
Balk: "I'm...dying? I thought I'd risen over 'death'..."
*Point: If the party members died, then how were they suddenly back alive
after Kuja teleported them out of battle with Necron? For that matter, how did
their souls return to their bodies with their bodies healed? Certainly this
would suggest that the concept is false.
*Response: Again, not necessarily. The point could as easily be posed in
response "Why then do the bodies of Zidane and the others vanish after
they're blasted by Ultima, and why do they awaken in a different location
than the one where they had fought Kuja, with it being called the 'Hill of
Despair' and the sounds of anguished souls audible?". The notion that Zidane
and the others DIDN'T die requires more explanation than one that would
argue they did. While certainly odd that Kuja would be able to teleport souls
and then place them back into their [healed] bodies that had been killed
moments before, that can possibly be explained away by the fact that Kuja had
absorbed a multitude of souls from the Invincible:
Kuja
"Yes! This is the power I've longed for!!!"
"The mighty power of souls! They assault any threat that tries to destroy
them!"
Zidane
"Wh-What do you mean...?"
Kuja
"It's Trance! You know how it works."
"But a normal Trance won't be enough to defeat you... You're all as resilient
as oglops."
"Even tiny moogles possess the power of Trance... When I saw that in Gulug
Volcano, I came up with a plan."
"It was easy. I just needed to borrow the power from wretched souls that
can't die..."
"Where did I acquire it? It was the Invincible, or should I say, that large
eyeball in the sky?"
"The ship sucked up the souls of Madain Sari, the Iifa Tree, Alexandria to
feed upon them..."
"When it fought Bahamut at the Iifa Tree, the Invincible drew in a powerful
spirit... Can you guess to whom it belonged?"
Dagger
"!?"
Kuja
"Queen Brahne's soul! The soul of your mother!"
"The souls trapped inside the Invincible welcomed me with open arms."
"They were fed up with being your prisoners, Garland."
With that much power, perhaps the power to reach out and touch souls was not
beyond Kuja, him then teleporting the souls to the same location as Zidane
and the others' bodies, with the bodies healed. While that's conjecture and
Zidane and the others dying WOULD make a plothole of Kuja rescuing Zidane and
the others, them having not died and Necron not being the core mechanism of
the Iifa Tree would make a plothole of what Necron is, why the Iifa Tree died
after his defeat, why Zidane and the others' bodies disappeared after being
blasted by Ultima when Kuja attempted to kill them, why Necron and Garland
express a similar view of life, with there being no connection between the
two, and why some random cosmic being was so cosmically bored as to be
observing Kuja to make a determination about the nature of humanity and
deemed it appropriate to step-in to perform what it deemed to be a boon to
humanity. Logically, the explanation that left the smallest amount of
plotholes would be the best one, especially when it IS supported by in-game
dialogue and events.
*Point: Kuja's Ultima Spell back on Terra didn't kill Zidane and the others.
Why assume that it killed them in Crystal World?
*Response: Because Kuja was trying to kill them at that point, whereas he
wasn't back on Terra. Immediately after blasting them there, he's then
contemplating whether he should kill them quickly or slowly. In Crystal World,
he's not doing any such thing. He fully intended to kill them, stating that if
he was going to die, he wasn't going alone.
For that matter, consider the professional Wrestler known as "Triple H": Were
he to punch someone in their face without intending to kill them, they could
probably survive. If he were to punch them as hard as he could in the face, he
would likely rearrange their skull and they would be dead. In this case,
Triple H is Kuja and Triple H's fist is Ultima.
*Point: Garland says he wanted to place all creatures into a world in which
life was combined with death, while Necron spoke of returning all life into a
world without life. That wouldn't suggest similar goals.
*Response: Once again, not necessarily. This is what Garland says concerning
his ultimate goal for living beings:
"To live is to give life meaning, yet one must take others' lives to
survive..."
"A mature civilization becomes aware of this paradox..."
"Terra's souls will sleep until they forget such nonsense. They will begin a
new life in a new dimension."
"It's a world in which life and death become one..."
"That is the dimension in which we are meant to live, as beings that
transcend life and death!"
This is what Necron says concerning its intentions:
"I exist for one purpose..."
"To return everything back to the zero world, where there is no life and no
crystal to give life."
"In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world that all life
desires."
Necron speaks of placing life in a dimension of no life, with no Crystal to
give life. Does that necessarily mean that all things are non-existant? Would
souls cease to exist simply because they weren't inhabiting living vessels?
Or would they be without life, and, thus, without death, as well? Would they
not have transcended life and death, as Garland sought to accomplish?
Granted, this is only speculation, but to transcend life and death would
mean to be beyond both, and from my own interpretation, for there to be no
life would also mean there would be no death. To exist without either, but
beyond their reach.
However, I believe that the true nature of this matter is this:
Recall that Final Fantasy IX is a game that pays tribute to past Final Fantasy
games and that its final boss battle is already paying heavy tribute to Final
Fantasy IV's final battle. It's also paying tribue to V's, however, in that
the concept of the Darkness of Eternity (also Necron's Japanese name) is akin
to the concept of the Void from Final Fantasy V's final battle with Neo
Ex-Death, and the manner in which they introduce themselves is also very
similar (as will be pointed out further in the next section).
Supposing that Necron essentially became the same as the Void of Final
Fantasy V -- keeping in mind that the Void itself was a manufactured entity
only 1,000 years old and not simply a being that always was -- Necron, aware
of Garland's view of life (that it exists hand-in-hand with death and that
life is death itself as life must cause death in order to endure) due to
Garland being his maker, chose to test the validity of Garland's hypothesis,
and so it chose to observe Kuja, another of Garland's creations, and the one
that Garland had intended to work in rapport with the Tree, Kuja inciting war
and death, rendering souls free of their bodies, with the Iifa Tree then
intercepting those souls and preventing them from being added back to Gaia's
collective.
After witnessing Kuja's self-destructive actions that took place on a cosmic
scale, Necron would have concluded that Garland's theory was correct
("...Now, the theory is undeniable." "Kuja's action proves it. All things
live to perish.") and then took the purpose for which Garland had created it
further than was ever intended, choosing to expand its range of negation
beyond just Gaia's souls and to the universe itself, deciding to -- like the
Void -- end all existance, quite possibly including its own, the same as the
Void had intended. If ever a being that existed for the purpose that the Iifa
Tree had been given were to expand its range of function further, this would
be the logical form of expansion: Extending its sights beyond Gaia and to the
universe at-large. This is even arguably the only logical evolution that
Necron could deterine for the purpose for which it had been created.
*Point: When you fight Kuja you've travelled millions and possibly billions of
years back in time, but Necron could only have existed for as long as Terra
had first attempted to merge with Gaia at the most.
*Response: Why would Necron have been unable to travel to the past the same
as Kuja, Zidane, and the others did were it the core function of the Iifa
Tree? As it wasn't bound to the material plane to begin with, there's no
reason it shouldn't have been able to follow memories of Gaia and Terra back
in time, as well. For that matter, Necron's dialogue DOES suggest that it has
been watching Kuja, so it's only logical that it would have followed him.
*Point: Why would Necron be able to follow Kuja back to the Crystal, however?
It's not implied that Necron has a soul, and it is the memories within one's
soul that they use to make their way back in time to the Crystal. Even if
Necron did have a soul, unless Garland granted him one in the same manner that
he did so with Zidane, Kuja, and Mikoto, Necron shouldn't be able to see the
Crystal, as it wouldn't have been present in the past and wouldn't have the
Crystal in its memory, just as Quina didn't have the destruction of Alexandria
Castle in its memory and, thus, couldn't see this event when it was replayed
in Memoria.
*Response: As the core mechanism of the Iifa Tree, Necron had been discarding
Gaia's souls for 1000 years. For it to have been sitting there all that time
pondering Garland's theory about life without ever examining the souls -- and,
more specifically, their memories -- that it was interfering with is hardly
logical. It has the ability to discard these souls and seemingly do whatever
it wants to with them. To conclude that it couldn't use the memories within
them to access Memoria for some reason hardly seems plausible.
It could very possibly have absorbed some of the souls that it was removing
from Gaia, thus having access to their memories, just as Aki Ross in
Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within could view a Phantom's memories due to part
of that Phantom's Spirit Energy being contained within Aki's body, a concept
similar to Yuna experiencing some of Lenne's memories in Final Fantasy X-2
while wearing the Songstress Dressphere (Lenne's crystalized Spirit Energy).
There's not really any reason to assume that Necron COULDN'T absorb souls. It,
after all, obviously had overwhelmed the souls that it had been removing for
1,000 years, and both the Airship Invincible (possibly a creation of
Garland's, but, at the very least, a creation of Terra) and Kuja himself were
capable of absorbing and storing souls. So that's at least one non-living
creation of Terra that could do so, and one living creation that could also do
so. Further, Soulcage was able to distribute the Mist, which implies some kind
of power over souls.
For that matter, the Iifa Tree served as the bridge between the souls of Gaia
and Terra in the first place, and -- further still -- the gateway to Memoria
was directly above the Iifa Tree. To determine that the core mechanism of the
Tree would be unable to access this realm is really not plausible on any
level.
Further still, even if Necron's soul had only existed for 1,000 years and it
didn't absorb ANY souls, that's still not reason enough to discount it being
able to see the Crystal. Zidane could see Dagger's memories from her
childhood, despite him not being present for them. The story used that as a
plot device to lead up to Garland's revelation about all life and memory being
connected:
Zidane
"A storm..."
::Zidane runs across a bridge and comes to a stop::
"!?"
::He looks over the railing, seeing two people in a boat::
"Hey! What are you doing!?"
"You shouldn't go anywhere. There's a storm."
"Watch out! You're gonna get washed away!"
Zidane
"Dagger! I just saw a little girl on a ship, and-"
"Huh!?"
::The people he saw have vanished::
"...I guess it was my imagination."
"Yeah, it had to be. What I just saw definitely isn't one of my memories."
Dagger
(What's going on? That was my memory.)
(Why was Zidane able to see it?)
"Zidane."
Zidane
"Yeah, what's up?"
Dagger
"...You didn't imagine anything."
Zidane
"Wait, you saw it, too...!? That means that little girl was you."
"But...why was I able to see something from your memory?"
Dagger
"I don't know..."
Zidane
"Hey, Garland! What's going on!?"
"Garland, can you hear me!?"
[Later]
"...Zidane, can you hear me?"
"...Zidane. What you just saw was from your memory, and not Garnet's."
Zidane
"What!? I don't remember ever being in a storm at sea."
"You still don't understand... You will find out soon enough..."
Zidane
"What do you mean? Can other people's memories become a part of my own?"
"Garland!!!"
"Once you accept everything, the answer will appear before you."
[Later]
Zidane
"Garland, what exactly is our memory!?"
"......"
Zidane
"Why can I remember other people's experiences and events that happened
before my time?"
"........."
Zidane
"Garland, please! Tell me!"
"...Do not limit memory to just one individual's experiences from birth. That
is only the surface."
"Every life born into this world, whether natural or artificial, requires a
parent."
"And that parent also requires a parent."
"Life is connected, one to another..."
"If you trace the root of all life, there exists one source."
"The same can be said for memory."
"All life constitutes an intelligence that holds memory beyond experience."
"Memory is not isolated within individuals."
"It is an accumulation of generations of memories that continues to evolve."
"You can say that memory and evolution go hand in hand."
"But most life-forms do not understand the true nature of memories..."
"...which explains why most memories never cross paths."
Zidane
"...So, what am I gonna find by tracing back our roots?"
"...A presence that presides over all life and memories. The crystal
*Point: Necron is essentially the same entity as the Void of Final Fantasy V.
Whether it is called "the Darkness of Eternity," "the Eternal Darkness," or
"the Void," it is essentially the same concept, a manifestation of
non-existance itself, or the drive for non-existance. The game plays tribute
to both IV and V's final battles with Necron, paying homage first to Zeromus'
appearance -- and later his defeat with Necron's defeat and the similar
dialogue that both use upon being defeated -- and also to Neo Ex-Death, the
merged being that was Ex-Death and the Void.
To support this notion, Neo Ex-Death says similar things to what Necron says:
(Neo Ex-Death's lines.)
"I am Neo-Exdeath! I shall erase all memory, all existence, all
dimensions. Then I too, shall disappear for, eternity!"
(Some of Necron's lines.)
"You stand before the final dimension, and I am the darkness of eternity..."
...
"I exist for one purpose..."
"To return everything back to the zero world, where there is no life and no
crystal to give life."
That Necron would simply be -- like the Void or Neo Ex-Death -- the
manifestation of the state of non-existance itself, or that drive to render it
as reality, is very much a possibility. For that matter, it's not at all
unlike Final Fantasy games to have a being be the incarnation of a concept
or a feeling, such as Zeromus being the incarnation of hate.
*Response: Necron's existance being akin to the Void's would only serve to
support the notion that Necron was the Iifa Tree's core function, as it would
suggest Necron to have been manufactured, as the Void itself was:
"...1000 years ago, there was a powerful evil called Enuo. Enuo was
able to control the power of the Void. The battle raged on for a long time.
Eventually, using the 12 Legendary Weapons, the people defeated Enuo. But
they were not able to get rid of the Void that Enuo had created. The people
were left with no choice but to. split the Crystals into two. When the
Crystals that supported the world were split, the world split into two as
well. The space between the two worlds, called the Cleft of Dimension, was
where the people chose to seal the Void."
While it's true that the Void itself existed before time, Enuo is credited
with harnessing its power and "creating" it. The Void was most certainly there
before time itself, but it was simply void in and of itself. For all we're
made aware, it did not yet have the consciousness it displays at the end of
the game (the Neo ExDeath battle) until Enuo's meddling. Whatever the
explanation, Enuo is credited with having created the Void on some level, and
it is, thus, valid to classify it as a manufactured entity.
As for Necron being the manifestation of non-existance the same as Zeromus
was the manifestation of hate, it should be kept in mind that Zeromus was the
manfiefstation of ZEMUS' hate, not hate itself:
(Stated by Zeromus upon its appearance.)
I am the incarnation of Zemus's enmity... Zeromus, the absolute
darkness, the epitome of hate.
While Zeromus does say that it is the epitome of hate, it has clearly
identified itself as the incarnation of Zemus' hate just before that. What
falls after is likely nothing more than ego-stroking or boasting.
In concluding this point, Final Fantasy V's Void had a connection to
pre-existing integral plot elements of V's story (Enuo and the Cleft of
Dimension), just as Zeromus had a connection to pre-existing integral plot
elements of Final Fantasy IV (Zemus and his hate). The concept behind Necron
being the same as the concept behind the Void does nothing toward suggesting
that Necron isn't the Iifa Tree's core mechanism, and really would only serve
to suggest he is.
*Point: The Iifa Tree may have died as a result of an attack by Zidane in
Trance, rather than as a result of Necron's defeat. During the ending, Zidane
tells Dagger that it was his desire to go back to her that kept him alive
when the Iifa Tree attacked him and appeared to have crushed him. As he put
it, he HAD TO survive so that he could see her again:
"I didn't have a choice"
"I had to live"
"I wanted to come home to you."
We know based on Kuja's powerful Trance after he absorbed the souls
impriosoned in the Invincible that a soul will react with Trance when it is
endangered:
"Yes! This is the power I've longed for!!!"
"The mighty power of souls! They assault any threat that tries to destroy
them!"
...
"It's Trance! You know how it works."
"But a normal Trance won't be enough to defeat you... You're all as resilient
as oglops."
"Even tiny moogles possess the power of Trance... When I saw that in Gulug
Volcano, I came up with a plan."
"It was easy. I just needed to borrow the power from wretched souls that
can't die..."
"Where did I acquire it? It was the Invincible, or should I say, that large
eyeball in the sky?"
Further, Garland states that Zidane would surpass Kuja in power very soon:
Zidane
"So...Kuja is just an angel of death who sends souls to the Tree of Iifa."
Garland
"Yes, my angel of death. But only until you came of age."
Zidane
"What do you mean!?"
Garland
"His soul is not eternal... I was going to create you next, after all."
Zidane
"You mean you won't need Kuja's soul once I grow stronger than him?"
Garland
"Precisely... Soon, that time will come."
Based on this and Zidane's statement that he had to survive so that he could
go back to Dagger, as well as the knowledge a Trance would be induced by one
being endangered, and, finally, by Zidane displaying far more agility and
speed while avoiding attacks from the Iifa Tree than he had displayed earlier
in the game when trying to outrun the vines in the Evil Forest -- suggesting
that his power had increased -- we can determine that Zidane may have gone
into Trance when crushed by the vines and roots of the Iifa Tree, and then
became powerful enough to deal a fatal wound to the Tree. It may have even
been already wounded substantially due to the explosion of the wormhole to
Memoria that occurred directly above the Tree.
Also consider that Zidane's dialogue upon leaving Memoria would suggest that
the Iifa Tree was still very much alive and well, and ready to carry out the
fusion of Gaia and Terra:
Zidane
"So what Kuja said was true... The Iifa Tree is beginning its violent
reaction."
For that matter, the Tree seemed very much alive while attacking Zidane. If
the Tree was going to be dead in moments, one has to wonder why it didn't
attempt to carry out the assimilation of Gaia and Terra. If Zidane didn't
put a stop to it, why did it stop?
*Response: While I agree that it's likely that Zidane survived the Iifa
Tree's assault through Trance, that hardly means that he necessarily killed
it, as well. Despite it being very much moving about once Necron was
defeated, that doesn't mean it was in the same condition immediately after
Necron's defeat as it had been beforehand. One can damage the mechanisms
within a machine (which the Tree essentially acted as) and it may not cease
functioning altogether straight away. For that matter, the same is true of
the human body. Even if a patient were "brain dead," nerve receptors would
still respond to stimuli and synapses would continue to flare. Even if one
was shot through the heart, certain electrical functions -- such as those
already mentioned -- within the body would continue to function for some time
before they gave out entirely. There's no reason to expect the Tree to
immediately keel over and die.
As far as the Tree not attempting to fulfill the assimilation of Gaia and
Terra, we don't know that it DIDN'T try, but if its main mechanism were gone
(this mechanism being what would route the souls of Gaia and Terra), the
assimilation COULDN'T take place anyway. (For clarification of why this is
so, refer to the next section in which I explain what the nature of this
assimilation is.)
Also, if one is going to state "If the Tree was going to be dead in moments,
one has to wonder why it didn't attempt to carry out the assimilation of
Gaia and Terra," it's then equally fair to ask why -- if the Tree were going
to live -- it even bothered with going to all the trouble to attempt to take
out Zidane when it could have just carried out the assimilation of Gaia and
Terra, not only fulfilling its function, but being victorious over Zidane in
the long run -- if not the short run -- anyway. The Tree being on the verge
of death and reacting violently in an attempt to take out its killer as a
response to its own death is a far more plausible explanation of events that
transpired there.
As for Zidane being more powerful than Kuja once he "come of age," we don't
know HOW MUCH more powerful than Kuja he would be. Further still, it has to
be kept in mind that Kuja had absorbed a multitude of souls and that much of
the power seen displayed by him on Discs 3 and 4 was coming from all of those
souls being Tranced, including his own, with his own power not likely being
anything on the scale displayed by him once he had absorbed those souls
trapped in the Invincible. If he only gained a small boost of power from all
of those souls, one would have to question why he even bothered to acquire
them. His own words suggest that he gained a massive amount of power from
having absorbed those souls and them then having gone into Trance along with
his own:
Kuja
"Yes! This is the power I've longed for!!!"
"The mighty power of souls! They assault any threat that tries to destroy
them!"
On the matter of the wormhole to Memoria collapsing and then exploding above
the Iifa Tree, we don't know the extent of any damage that the explosion may
have caused to the Tree, if it damaged it at all. If it were powerful enough
an explosion to significantly or fatally wound the Tree, the question would
have to be pondered of why damage that was going to wound the Tree so
significantly wasn't more prominent, at least mentioned in dialogue if not
shown visually, yet there's no indication in either manner that the Tree had
even suffered any damage. Supposing that it had, that the Tree would be
so severely wounded would be unlikely considering that the explosion took
place above its branches and not along its trunk or root system, with Trees
being fully capable of surviving having all their branches torn off, so long
as the Trunk and root system remain intact. Granted, we don't know the
physiology of this Tree, but if one is to argue that an explosion that --
while large -- didn't render any noticeable damage to it, yet significantly
contributed to its death by leaving it weak enough that an attack from Zidane
in Trance could kill it when we're not even aware of the extent of Zidane's
full power, then it's equally reasonable to assume that if the Tree were so
weakened, there would have been a visual or verbal indication that it had
at least sustained damage, and also equally reasonable to assume that damage
to the branches of the Tree aren't going to kill it anymore than damage to a
normal tree's branches would kill it.
*Point: Garland states that he created the Iifa Tree to subvert the Cycle of
Souls, whereas Necron claims that the only purpose for which it existed was to
return all things to the "Zero World." In other words, the purpose Garland
gave the Tree isn't the purpose that Necron had.
*Response: Not necessarily. Garland had a habit of granting sentience and free
will to his creations (Kuja, Soulcage, Zidane) even when they were created to
serve certain functions, and they had a habit of not doing exactly what
Garland wanted. While essentially machines from the standpoint of what they
were created to do, they were living, thinking beings with the capacity to
make choices, those choices often not at all coinciding with what Garland had
intended for them. The most obvious example of this would be Kuja, Garland's
"Angel of Death" of the Iifa Tree. Kuja fulfilled the warmonger aspect of what
Garland created him for superbly, but Kuja also learned resentment toward
Zidane and Garland and gained a lust for power and to rule, even overthrowing
Garland, something obviously not in Garland's original plan for his wayward
Genome.
With this in mind, that Necron could choose to test the validity of Garland's
view of life in regard to the function that it had been given and conclude
that a broader application of its function was called for (the negation of the
universe itself) isn't so far a stretch of the imagination, especially with
Necron's self-proclaimed observance of Kuja, something that would make sense
with Kuja having been another Garland's creations, and -- more specifically --
that creation which was intended to incite death on a massive scale, sending
forth souls to the Tree to be intercepted.
In conclusion, I feel that the most simple explanation for Necron's role and
the only one which is supported by the story itself is that Necron was the
core mechanism of the Iifa Tree. Any other explanation I've ever become
aware of -- such as Necron being the opposite of the Crystal, or ferryman of
Death, so to speak, Death itself, or being some random cosmic being that was
randomly observing Kuja -- are explanations that lie outside the support of
the story, nor do they really serve to clear anything up, as they merely
raise more questions than they answer. While that's not to say that they're
absolutely invalid, when basing one's examination of the matter solely on
the game itself and its tributaries, the most simple explanation is that
Necron was the Iifa Tree's core mechanism."
If i remember well, the FFIX world have Lifestream right? So, if Zidane and the others fight against Necron in the world of the deads, that means that the final battle of the game is in the Lifestream, right?
They didn't exactly say that it was lifestream, but I suppose that's one way to go about describing it.
I was under the impression that Necron was the guardian of the crystal that was briefly mentioned at one point in the game when they were discussing the crystal. I don't really feel the need to go searching for the evidence to support that as I don't really care.
Necron is like...death or something. He wants to make everything nothing so he's like the Grim Reaper or something. "The Eternal Darkness" as his title is I believe.
And yea, in the end, it's hard to say who is talking. I like to believe it was Garnet (I found it never made sense as Mikoto since she went on, count it, one, airship ride with you and had no other journeys besides that with you and well it could be Vivi, but it seemed more intimate like what Garnet would say than what Vivi would say to me, but I guess it could just be a collective thought of everyone). And Vivi doesn't die. I believe if you watch the ending movie, Vivi has 6 children (as seen when they run by Puck). Then when it shows everyone in the seats clapping after Zidane reveals himself, there are 7 Vivis, so one must be the original Vivi and the other 6 his children.
Supporing the arugument posted by Goldenboco:
I remember very clearly Trance Kuja saying (just before you fight him), something like:
"Even if you defeat me the defence mechanism of the Iifa Tree will destroy you".
What happens as soon as you defeat TK? You fight Necron...?...
No, he said something like "Even if you deffeat me, the process of assimilation of the Iifa Tree is already begun, and in this point, even me cannot do nothing to stop it".Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hubsta
It is stated in-game that the black mages have a short lifespan. Besides, it's pretty obvious that the person speaking knows he's gonna die soon, and Vivi is the only one who you don't see. Common sense, really.Quote:
When the hell does Vivi die? Vivi does not die! But if he does, when? And how? Why has this been kept secret? We need answers! Vivi doesn't die!?!??!
Just wondering did anyone read what I posted except Hubsta (and Hubsta he is right he said the assimaltion of the Iifa Tree is about to finish or something like that) But really now did anyone read Squall of SeeDs anylsis? It makes sense storyline in basically every perspective.
I readed. In truth, you picked only one part of the FAQ, and i already readed the entire FAQ. In another section of it, the author prove that Gaia and Terra, have Lifestreams(Terra is trying to replace Gaia's Lifestream with its own). Is said in that FAQ that the fight with Necron is in the world of the deads, so, the fight is in the Lifestream, like i said in my other post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboco
Spoiler:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hubsta
he actually does becuz he only had a certain amount of time to live, but when he "died" his body formed many new vivis (his children one says he is vivi's son) which u see at the end.:eek: I thought it was vivi saying the entire speech at the end. Also I think a few years passed after zidane's disapperance at the lifa tree so vivi must have died sometime during those few years.
He "formed them" out of thin air?Quote:
Originally Posted by crayzee gamrSpoiler:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hubsta
he actually does becuz he only had a certain amount of time to live, but when he "died" his body formed many new vivis (his children one says he is vivi's son) which u see at the end.:eek: I thought it was vivi saying the entire speech at the end. Also I think a few years passed after zidane's disapperance at the lifa tree so vivi must have died sometime during those few years.
The whole concept of Vivi being a machine or prototype or whatever never made sense to me. Although he did say that his first memory was when he showed up on the cliff of his adoptive grandfather's property.
What I don't understand is, how was Vivi the only surviving prototype of the younger Black Mages? Why would anybody create an army starting with young mages who only know basic skills? It doesn't add up. Perhaps he was considered a failure in a magical family and was cast away. It doesn't make sense, and Square-Enix is nice enough not to give ANY information about his origin.
His death is also mysterious (obviously), as are the origins of his children. Who was his lover/spouse? He obviously matured at some point in order to start mating, so we know his organs worked.
Is his death the cause of the machinery in his system ceasing to function? How do we know he's a machine? Perhaps he just died. It happens. Not in every day life, of course, but such cases exist.
Personally, I am not convinced, unless anybody else has some important information and/or proof found within the game of this matter which I overlooked.
Doesn't Kuja say that they're made from Mist and some magical energy or something? (On the Iifa Tree, I believe.)
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Game Script
Maybe he can reproduce asexually, that or vivi is a pimp (he had like nine kids!).:DQuote:
Originally Posted by SpikingZeroHe "formed them" out of thin air?Quote:
Originally Posted by crayzee gamrSpoiler:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hubsta
he actually does becuz he only had a certain amount of time to live, but when he "died" his body formed many new vivis (his children one says he is vivi's son) which u see at the end.:eek: I thought it was vivi saying the entire speech at the end. Also I think a few years passed after zidane's disapperance at the lifa tree so vivi must have died sometime during those few years.
The whole concept of Vivi being a machine or prototype or whatever never made sense to me. Although he did say that his first memory was when he showed up on the cliff of his adoptive grandfather's property.
What I don't understand is, how was Vivi the only surviving prototype of the younger Black Mages? Why would anybody create an army starting with young mages who only know basic skills? It doesn't add up. Perhaps he was considered a failure in a magical family and was cast away. It doesn't make sense, and Square-Enix is nice enough not to give ANY information about his origin.
His death is also mysterious (obviously), as are the origins of his children. Who was his lover/spouse? He obviously matured at some point in order to start mating, so we know his organs worked.
Is his death the cause of the machinery in his system ceasing to function? How do we know he's a machine? Perhaps he just died. It happens. Not in every day life, of course, but such cases exist.
Personally, I am not convinced, unless anybody else has some important information and/or proof found within the game of this matter which I overlooked.
Asexual reproduction doesn't necessarily work that way. Since Vivi is similar to the "humans" on Gaia, it wouldn't make sense for him to be asexual.Quote:
Originally Posted by crayzee gamr
Could be he was a pimp, kept impregnating his wife/lover, or had series of children at once (septuplets?!). Who knows...?
On a plot analasis (where that loooooooooooong post came from above), it says that he could've used some left over mist, and used the machines in Dali to create them.
I reckon he perfected the thingy and made them 9. Wow that sentence was well thought out.
I see. Maybe perhaps there is not supposed to be an answer, then.
He could have found out how to make more black mages, and created them himself. He is a powerful magician. I found Squall_of_SeeDs argument pretty convincing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikingZero
DING DING DING! You are correct! You win a prize!
Not really, but I'm glad somebody gets it. The very reason they did put that in there is because you absolutely cannot figure it out. You are supposed to be flipped out like Prince Puck, scratch your head wondering how and why, and then move on with your life. Congratulations.
It doesn't hurt to wonder for fun. I always figured the Genomes had something to do with it since they apparently used to create eachother (in the lab at Bran Bal that's what it looked like anyways).
The most funny thing of all of this, is that, if Vivi was in FFVII, you guys will try to create many theorys to explain it. But he is in FFIX, so, let's just say that this don't have any answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromus_X
Read the FAQ, he used some left over mist, and used the machines in Dali to create them. See, exist an answer.
Which is not supported enough from information in the game for it to be true. FFIX is not that freaking complicated. ><; It does not need to be thought over about so much, and neither do most of the other games for that matter.
If you don't like the topic don't read it.
And which FAQ please? The one Goldenboco posted? (there are more than one afterall)
No it is a different part of the plot anaylsis (The one I posted is all about Necron...)hold on
Here you go :)
And I do agree that the one about Vivi and his sons are all speculation but, I say Necron does havce an important storyline related part that most people shrug off even with a page full of explanation!
"-Part 6: Where Did Vivi's Sons Come From?
One of the most enduring questions of Final Fantasy IX is "Where did Vivi's
sons come from?" Speculation has run anywhere from "Vivi died and they formed
from his spiritual energy as it dispersed" to "Vivi used the machines in Dali
to create more Black Mages like himself [before his death]" to "They're Vivi
and Quina's children" to even "They're Vivi and Eiko's children." In all
honesty, it's not simple to make an easy determination simply because there's
so little explicit evidence offered by the game with which to make a
determination, however, that is exactly what I will do here, bringing forth
the most simple and likely explanation for their origin.
While some have cited Vivi and Quina's marriage in Conde Petie as evidence
toward the small Black Mages being their offspring, it is impossible to
corroborate such a claim for various reasons:
1) The marriage occurs in an optional scene that the player does not
necessarily have to activate.
2) The marriage will only take place for the purpose of granting Vivi and
Quina passage to the Conde Petie Mountain Path, not for any emotional bond
between Vivi and Quina.
3) Quina's gender is unknown (if he/she even has a set-gender).
4) It's unknown whether it is even possible for Black Mages to sexually
reproduce in the first place.
5) It's not known whether or not Qu reproduce through sexual interaction.
6) Supposing that it were possible for Black Mages to sexually reproduce and
that Vivi had reached sexual maturity, it is not known whether or not it would
even be possible for a Black Mage and a Qu to reproduce together.
For that matter, Vivi's sons do not arrive with Quina, nor do they sit with
Quina in the audience during the Play in Alexandria.
Quina having anything to do with the matter is entirely unfounded and not a
possibility that should be inquired into any further due to the extreme lack
of evidence, as well as the extreme lack of logic behind such a concept.
Likewise in regard to Eiko, as well as the likelihood that Eiko had not even
yet reached sexual maturity (she was six years old during the game after all;
based on everyone looking pretty much the same during the ending, it's safe to
assume that seven years had not passed).
For that matter, it's not known that the small Black Mages would have
necessarily been produced through sexual reproduction were they sired by Vivi.
Reproduction can also occur through fision (splitting) and budding (basically,
a new organism growing off of another's body). While that's not to say that
either of these were the processes by which Vivi's sons came to be, it IS
intended to say that sexual reproduction is not the only possible means
by which they may have been sired.
Where, then, did they come from?
Due to the same being the case in regard to Vivi and all other Black Mages,
it's likely safe to assume that Vivi's sons were composed of Spirit Energy
that had gone stagnant and become Mist, but as to how that Mist coalesced into
the Black Mages we see during the game's ending is left rather open-ended.
That said, however, I have a theory as to their origin, and feel that it is
the most likely based on in-game information coupled with logical reasoning
and assumption:
It is known, of course, that when someone dies, their Spirit Energy returns to
the Planet to be used as the energy of life in other creatures that are born.
It is known also that the experiences of an individual in some way contributes
toward the growth of a Planet's swell of Spirit Energy that lies at its
centre, whether that swell be called "the Lifestream," "the Gaia," or simply
"the light" (as it is in Final Fantasy IX). We know this based on the Gaia
Theory of Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within:
(Stated by Aki, quoting Dr. Sid's journal.)
"All life is born of Gaia and each life has a spirit. Each new spirit is
housed in a physical body. ...Through their experiences on Earth each spirit
matures and grows. When the physical body dies the mature spirit enriched by
its life on Earth returns to Gaia bringing with it the experiences, enabling
Gaia to live and grow."
However, the Mist covering the world was comprised of stagnant souls, unable
to return to the Planet. They were not going anywhere or doing anything. They
weren't being recycled and they weren't contributing to the growth of Gaia's
spirit, something it would desperately need at this point, seeing as how it
had been deprived of the Cycle of Souls for 1000 years. With that in mind,
Vivi may have decided to use the machines in Dali to expedite the Mist's
return to the Planet by giving it living vessels to inhabit once again, so
that once those living vessels died, the Spirit Energy would return to the
Planet as it naturally should.
Think of the matter as purifying water. If one has a contaminated lake, the
water can't be used. If, however, the water is taken into a machine, purified,
and then returned to the lake, the lake will be entirely cleansed and all the
water will be usable once again.
This, of course, brings up the questions of why it is that these sons of Vivi
have the same appearance as him, as well as how he would know to make them,
seeing as how he was a prototype of the Black Mages, obviously more complex
than those that were dying within one year's time. This, however, is easily
explained: As a prototype, Vivi was likely formed from compressing more Mist
than were the later Black Mages. In testing such a concept, it makes sense to
overdo it in order to determine -- over time -- how much Mist is needed to
produce the desired army of short-lived, reasonably powerful Black Mages. More
Mist would produce Black Mages like Vivi, and less Mist would produce Black
Mages like Black Mage No. 288. In trying to "purify" as much Mist as possible,
Vivi would, of course, use as much Mist as was possible in the creation of
each Black Mage. This would explain why the Mist has seemingly vanished from
the world during the ending, as well as why these Black Mages bear Vivi's
appearance.
One final thing to consider is the symbolism of Vivi's name, "Vivi" being
Latin for "Alive." That new life would emerge due to his actions would be very
fitting, I feel.
While it might be argued that Vivi abhorred the use of those Mist machines and
wouldn't have used them, it should be kept in mind that it was what the Black
Mages that were produced were being used FOR that Vivi abhorred. Them being
used as simply weapons of war and not treated as living beings with emotions
was what so enraged him.
With all this in mind, it is my personal belief that Vivi's sons were brought
into existance in the manner which I have suggested to be the case here, and
that it is the most likely possibility of their origin. It is the most likely
and most logical explanation that I know of, as well as the one which requires
the fewest assumptions.
(Note: Full credit for this concept goes to Tony Hilton (a.k.a. "Vir"); thanks
for opening my eyes. It was so simple and logical that it's brilliance at its
finest.)"
(You put the link to the FAQ in your Necron post is what I meant)
I never did figure where all the mist at the end of the game went (I sort of assumed it just dispersed, or something), so that explains two things!
Whoops forgot the quotes around that (I don't want to take credit on something I didn't do!)
And the FAQ is called Plot Anylsis.