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I dont even think I spelled that right.
Well Ive just recently become one myself (about a month back) and I wanted to know who else here is one and what your resons were.
Mine was because of all the things they do to animals in mass farming (antibiotics and what they feed them) and I just dont like to think thats what Im eating... so yeah.
I'd be a vegetarian, but I like the taste of meat too much and really don't give a damn about mindless animals bred purely to be eaten.
Ever looked in a cow's eyes? Nothing there, it's empty.
Though, being against the chemicals used in raising animals I can understand, but I hope that you follow along the same path in the vegetarian foods you eat in that they're all organic.
You know that there are more field mice killed in one week of wheat farming than in a whole season of beef production?
Field mice make terrible burgers though.
Let's all just accept the fact that we kill things. Things die and we should feel sorry but that's no excuse to change our diets. If people really wanted to make a difference, then they could take human bodies after they die and make food from them. Seriously. :)
It's typically about how cows live, not the fact that they die.Quote:
Originally Posted by abrojtm
Yes, I am a vegetarain and have been since 1993, which is probably longer than some of you have been on this earth. Mainly for the same reasons as you, Emmy. :cat:
What about the health benefits? That's the only reason I could see myself doing it for.
I eat too much junk food to consider that aspect of vegetarianism. :)
I have nothing against people being vegetarain, but to them I say, you're missing out some some nice tasty tender bites there. A nice fat steak with chips and gravy, oh man, not even a chocolate cheesecake could top that. Ever.
My mom was a vegan for a couple years in the 70's and she said in that time she never once got sick, whereas before she would get sick at least a couple times a year.
I'm vegetarian, I have been since 1999, I never liked meat much anyway, and I like animals way too much to eat one. I don't think I'm missing out on anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaneko
That is pretty much the only reason I am a vegetarian. The only meat I eat is fish.
I dunno, I mean there's the fact that by cutting off meat you lose out on a lot of essential amino acids, or at least far easier consumable sources compared to vegetables.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaneko
However, if you're willing to take vitamin and other such supplements, I can see how it'd be far healthier than eating meat; you'll certainly have regular digestion due to all the fibre.
You're not a vegetarian, you're a piscatarianQuote:
Originally Posted by Evolavas
Hm, learn something new everyday. I'm a piscatarian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindy
yes, i still eat fish too for the vitamins... and they're not contaminated the same way... and meat alternatives.. like eggs. Im only a minnor veggie though.Quote:
Originally Posted by EvolavasQuote:
Originally Posted by Yamaneko
That is pretty much the only reason I am a vegetarian. The only meat I eat is fish.
Ah man, I couldn't be a vegetarian. Chicken, Turkey, Prime Rib...it's all WAY TOO GOOD!
I could never be a vegetarian. I am such a meat eater.
I do hope you don't eat fish-farm products then >_>Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmy16
I tried to go today without eating meat and I couldnt even go half a day without it. So I could never be a vegetarian.
I managed to go a whole week without eating meat. I don't see how it's possible to go longer than that. I barely made it.
Are you sure? Unless huge bags of peas count as junk food.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeza
I'm a vegetarian, I have been for over half a year. I'm really used to it now. It was hard for me at first, but I'm somewhat glad I am. I still crave meat at time, eat eggs and drink milk (I'm an ovo-lacto vegetarian, or something along those lines, I couldn't handle being a vegan ever). I'd recommend taking iron supplements (not too much though, be very careful!) or iron vitamins because if you don't, you'll be anemic like I am. I should follow my own advice. Though of course, I was anemic as a child so this isn't suprising.
As for the why, it was a combination of feeling sick of eating meat because all we ate every day was chicken or burgers and seeing if I could do it. Of course, the animal reasons are definitely in there, and a bit of me wanting to be skinnier as a result, but I like to see if I can do things.
Also, I'd recommend that you'd do it if you're capable of being able to try lots of new things. Again, I should to follow my own advice, because I'm a very picky eater and now my staple food is basically pasta like the true Italian I am. Rice too, rice is very good. :)
I eat far too much meat to ever become a vegetarian.
Okay, I'm a so-called "piscatarian". Occasionally, I'll eat something with a little bit of beef or something in it, but that's not too often.
Go ahead, slaughter all the animals, I'm just not eating all the ucky meat. Eww, bad-stuff galore. :D
I eat lots of soy stuff, so that helps keep me up with protein and all that good stuff.
For me, at least, when I'm on campus for a full day (my job is on campus too) I end up at the cafeteria where the only vegetarian items are chips and candy. I have Funnyuns and Snapple for dinner a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr UnneI managed to go a whole week without eating meat. I don't see how it's possible to go longer than that. I barely made it.
Are you sure? Unless huge bags of peas count as junk food.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeza
And french fries. Love 'em.
I would never be a vegetarian, or God forbid a vegan.
I like the taste of meat way too much, and I'm not hypocritcal.
I could never give up my meat. Especially lamb. Can you imagine showing up to a barbeque and turning down a sausage in bread? Can you imagine the social consequences?!
God created Animals so they could be eaten.
By humans.
Animals taste delicious. I could never ever be a vegetarian.
Yes, I can, and did - on numerous accounts. Graduation parties, banquets, etc... Basically, any mass party seems to only serve meat. People give odd looks, but don't really alienate you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty
My girlfriend's family seems to only ever eat meat, and so I had to eat a can of green beans all the smurfing time... It was stupid...
The reasoning for me being veggetarian and later piscatarian for two, almost three years, was because I couldn't eat meat due to the thought of the animal.
Did I care about the animal? No, not one bit. I smurfing hate cows, and I haven't eaten pork for eons (12 years). I don't care how they are raised, or how they are butchered. I never did.
What caused me to change my dieting habits was the idea of me putting those disgusting, repulsive creatures in my body. I really didn't like the thought of it. As such, I didn't eat meat.
However, I wasn't being very wise in my choices of veggetarianism, and so I became sick more frequently. And having to make trips to a store seventy miles away just to get me more expensive food was becoming cumbersome. So I slowy worked my way up to eating fish again, and then later other meats.
I still don't like eating meat, and find that I only eat it once or less per day. And I will never, never eat pork. They say they're cleaner than most animals, but I don't care - I smurfing loathe the things. About as much as chickens, which are gross creatures also... And cows...
Livestock is gross.
I've been a vegitarian for a little under a year. I'm not 100% sure why. My friends think it's wierd but they understand that it's important to me. Although I ate a bag of cola bottle jellies and then realised they had beef gelatine in them so now i feel bad for the cows. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nominus Experse
Oh, that is VERY intellectual, isn't it Nominus Experse? 'Animals are disgusting and the thought of eating a repulsive creature disgusts me'.
Feh...
How foolish thou thinking is! :mad2:
Clearly you have never heard of the PURE EVIL that is broccoli. Or asparagus. Or spinach. Or cucumbers. Or tomatoes. Or carrots.
Vegetables aren't much better then Meat, man!
Broccoli will ALWAYS be 100,000 times more disgusting then any of Mother Nature's creatures, young one!
DON'T CALL INNOCENT, TASTY CREATURES REPULSIVE :mad2:
- Whatever they do to animals (biologically) in massfarming they also do to vegetables (not to mention the more deadly and detrimental pesticides found in f&vs). The only way around hormonse and GMOs (Genetically Modified Organisms) is to buy organic.
-If you are concerned about the chemicals found in meat I don't even want to hear you chew gum, drink pop, eat pizza, eat at restaurents or consume any other viable junk food or premade foods because that would just be hypocrtical.
- If you're concerned that man is playing God with animals through GMO... then you're in the wrong century. That or I must have missed the history lecture when God comes down on the 2000414124981 day and says "Let there be high-speed internet!"
- Walk into a grocery store. This is a great representation of the relation between resources and population. 95% of the food is necessarily man made. Not because we like to make stuff but mainly because our population is too huge to feed on the ideal organics.
(I'm totally pro GMO's)
- If you're concerned about the treatment of animals, the cruelty towards them... that's understandable, but there are other solutions than just jumping off the bridge. Try koshur or free range. Your cows will have lived full and happy lives.
- Your colon will be happy... but meats hold essential proteins that aren't simply replaced by eating the equivalent mass of tofu. You may have to supplement what you're lacking with vitamins/minerals pills.
- I'd be more concerned about the free trade and human/culture/political exploitation occurs where by basically the only fertile land of another culture is bullwarked from the people of that land and utilized by the big corporations of our culture to feed into our huge wasteful consumption culture. Consequently, another culture starves because we're using their land to feed Fastfood chain beef.
Really what I think I'm saying is that it's almost futile to logically become a vegetarian. The only reason you should be a vegetarian is simply because you damn well want to be and you really could care less what any of us meat slobbering cudd nuts think.
.... and no.
I'm an omnivore
I locate ultimate peace through balance and masterful domination of the food pyramid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuackFor me, at least, when I'm on campus for a full day (my job is on campus too) I end up at the cafeteria where the only vegetarian items are chips and candy. I have Funnyuns and Snapple for dinner a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr UnneI managed to go a whole week without eating meat. I don't see how it's possible to go longer than that. I barely made it.
Are you sure? Unless huge bags of peas count as junk food.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeza
And french fries. Love 'em.
Yeah, that's pretty much the same at my school. I try so hard just to get a bagel, so hard, but fries are my favorite things ever and they caaaaall to me and I eat them. ;__; xD
I just don't dig on swine. They're filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals. A sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie. I'll never know 'cause even if it did, I wouldn't eat the filthy thing. Pigs sleep and root in feces. That's a filthy animal. I don't wanna eat nothing that ain't got enough sense to disregard its own feces. Dogs eat their own feces, but I don't eat dog either. I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy, but they're definitely dirty. But a dog's got personality. And personality goes a long way.
:blahblah:Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Manus
A big loud LOL at the people who are. Though you've got some pretty big metaphorical balls, I must say. I love meat, and though I couldn't stand seeing the killing of an animal, or killing it myself, I will never stop eating it. The reason we bred more cows was to eat, and now the populations gone mental, and they're farting our world to Hell, so we need to eat MORE COWS NOT LESS! :bigsmile: Hahaha I wish I could've thought of that reason earlier. Damnit.
I've been a vegetarian for 5 years now. Back then my reasons were about the animal cruelty, something which people thought was "stupid" and "pointless". But then it became something I liked to do. So many people don't believe that I can do it, and believe me, I'll even turn down the most wonderful of chocolate desserts if they have any gelatine in. I don't eat fish either. To be honest, the only thing I miss remotely is tuna mayonaise and cucumber sandwiches.
Part of me still lies with the animal cruelty reason but I think my main reason is that breaking my vegetarianism would be like admitting defeat, and there's nothing I actually like that much which isn't veggie, so I stay one. :P
i wanna become one, but my mum wont let me :cry: how unfair?i hate meat!!!!its gacky, and i hope never to be made to eat lamb (i havent yet, woohoo!)
Meat is too good for me to stop eating. :)
not me, im indian i have to have meat:D
Too much "eating meat" sentences, I'm trying to fight the urge to say it, the inuendo's too much. :(
Ahem, I leave no food wasted, all food gets eaten/dies so I don't know what to say.
I'm not a vegetarian, never have been :bigsmile:
I've been a vegetarian (ovo-lacto) for two years, and I'm probably the most ridiculous vegetarian ever. It's rare that I try anything new, I like bland food, and I hate nuts. And I don't think I benefit at all from better health, seeing as I don't take any of the vitamins I should and I eat way too much junk food. xD And I dread to think how little iron there is in my diet. ;D Eggs are probably the only thing with a lot of iron in that I eat.
I remember once, last year, I was talking to one of the teachers in my school, and he said that his mother used to eat chicken and claim she was a vegetarian. xD
I don't eat meat 'cause a couple of years ago eating things that used to live and think for themselves started to freak me out. :p
I hate it when people say we don't eat really intelligent animals when pigs are like the third most intelligent animal (counting all apes and chimps as one or something, I might be wrong anyway) or something. :(
My parents would never let me become one even if I wanted to, however cruel it may be to eat animals, its good for you (Whats IN the meat).
Id become a Vegetarian if things were different, and almost everybody was one. As it is, Vegetarians arnt very common, so why bother? Its not like one person not eating meat will stop animals being killed. I do think its cruel - but damn it dont half taste good.
Yeah, but everyone thinking like that is kinda what causes a lot of bad stuff to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldy
No, I am not. I hate red meat but I like eggs and chicken. I am against killing animals too, but I can't help eating them. :(
When I was younger me and my brother would swap food so he had my meat and I had the vegetables, because I hated meat so much. Needless to say I am now vegetarian.
However, personally, I'm not that fussed about the animal. that would involve me some sort of caring side.
Hmm, I've been through various stages of vegetarianism since I was 10 (1992). Most of the time I was a piscatarian (ridiculous word - it's just a media term), but then I became a lacto-ovo vegetarian, and then a vegan (for a little over two years). At the moment, I eat fish but no other animals/animal products.
I don't eat animals for ethical reasons. I don't want to eat something that has been bred to die, something that just spends its entire life in a field. I think that kind of sucks. I'd be a bit annoyed if I just stood around in a field all day, and my one trip out of said field proved to be a bit of a one-way experience. That's how I justify eating fish, although I still feel pretty bad about it. I won't eat anything that has been farmed, though.
I don't eat dairy because I don't think it's healthy. Those animals are all pumped full of hormones and antibiotics. Plus, I'm pretty unsure of milk. I don't know of any other animal that drinks milk past infancy - seems a bit weird to me.
What are the point of sheep, cows etc if not to herd and eat them? I'm being serious here.
Emma is like, the reflection of myself. I'm the same exact way, except I do like nuts. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Spiffing Cheese
The same point humans are alive. What's the point of humans? No point in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Manus
I would never be a vegetarian. It's crap. I don't see how someone can get so worked up just because you're eating a cow, I mean really. Why else are they alive? It's called the food chain. You're supposed to eat the cows.
*sodaQuote:
Originally Posted by Chemical
Yeah, there isn't much point. They've been bred from wild variants to be utterly stupid, with several of their natural instincts completely wiped out. Doesn't stop me feeling sorry for them, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Manus
I would like to be a vegetarian in some ways, because of all the animals they kill just to feed us all, but on the other hand, humans are hunters (sadly, we hsould be the hunted, but thats another story) and for some of us eating meat is just normal, to survive, because its nice.Although i really only like Chicken, i hate beef and pork and fish and lamb!!!
To all the vegans and vegetarians out there i say:
Well done!
My reasons for not eating meat (excluding fish and free range meat, the later of which I can never find, so I actually haven't had any):
1) Factory farming practices are deplorable. Disgusting. Cruel. Awful. Anyone who knows how most of our meat is produced and thinks that's fine... Wow. That's pretty telling. This is my main reason for avoiding meat.
2) The amount of meat humans are currently eating is hurting our bodies. Humans are supposed to be eating 2 - 3 servings of meat (or nuts) a day. A serving is about the size of a deck of cards: two to three ounces. We're eating eight to sixteen ounce steaks for dinner, plus a bologna sandwich, sausage for breakfast... Heck, even just the giant steak is too much. Meat is only good for us in small amounts because it's difficult to digest, and actually stagnates and rots in our systems before we excrete it. And even in small amounts how good it is for you is arguable. The only thing you can't really get without meat is certain amino acids, which can be found elsewhere.
3) The amount of meat humans are currently eating is hurting other's bodies. If Americans reduced our meat consumption by 10% (still above the daily recommended amount) we would free up enough farm land to feed sixty million hungry people.
4) The amount of meat humans are currently eating is hurting our environment. Animal poop is fertilizer, right? Well very little of it is actually used for that. Most of it just stays where the cows are at, getting packed down, and in a number of places it's contaminating fresh water. Also, the amount of water consumed by the farm animals is drying up natural aquifers (underground water sources) inland. Once those are dry, they don't refill, and often cave in. Not only are these natural resources gone then, but they sometimes cause a house to fall into a hole or some such thing.
Uh... That's the basics anyway. I don't think it's cruel to eat animals, just cruel to be uncaring gluttons. Sadness.
I could make you all guilty by involving starving Africans, and that clearly you're all too spoilt, but I don't actually think like that. I'd just be using it to make you feel bad :bigsmile:
EDIT: Just to make it clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quin 'n' Tonic
The demand for meat isn't great enough that the supply would remain static if the demand were decreased. Animals and people are suffering because of your brand of ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
Look up.
Whether or not you actually believe it doesn't make it any less of an ignorant thing to say, and you said you don't actually think like that, not that you don't believe it's accurate.
...Then I don't understand why you feel the need to say it. *shrug*Quote:
Originally Posted by Quin 'n' Tonic
Because people are always using it against my friends and it makes me laugh :(
DAMNIT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT VEGETARIANS NOT QUIN BASHING!
Well don't say stupid things then!
Anyone can make up crap to make other people feel bad. Hey, Quin, everytime you pass gas you cause global warming. By the time you die Alaska will be underwater because of you.
My school offers a whole vegitarian diet menu... Its all part of this "get the students to eat healthier" plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeQuote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuackFor me, at least, when I'm on campus for a full day (my job is on campus too) I end up at the cafeteria where the only vegetarian items are chips and candy. I have Funnyuns and Snapple for dinner a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr UnneI managed to go a whole week without eating meat. I don't see how it's possible to go longer than that. I barely made it.
Are you sure? Unless huge bags of peas count as junk food.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeza
And french fries. Love 'em.
Yeah, that's pretty much the same at my school. I try so hard just to get a bagel, so hard, but fries are my favorite things ever and they caaaaall to me and I eat them. ;__; xD
I'm not, but my sister's been a vegeterian for maybe a year or so. I still have meat fairly often, but she only has fish and eggs now, and has wanted to cut out even those, but my mother has refused. It's difficult enough for my mom to get her to have enough protein and iron as it is.
I'm eating spaghetti with hamburger meat in it right now, and have been as I've read this entire thread, and I just now realized it, and I promise you it doesn't bother me.
There are about twenty odd head of cattle in the pastures behind my house, and I have no clue where they go when they are sold and really I don't want to know, but it doesn't get in the way of my eating meat.
It seems sorta silly to see so many people going to extremes to classify themselves by such an arbitrary means as what form the energy they put into their bodies takes, but that's just me.
I thought about being vegetarian when I was littler, but I never really managed it. Mostly because I was extremely picky back then, and a good deal of what I would eat was meat.
If cattle are bred to have no instincts any more, it would be sort of cruel to expect them to go back to living like buffalo, ranging wild over the praries. And where would they go? No matter what decisions you make today, the stock of meat living in the farms will have to go somewhere, so instead of bickering, go donate to the Heifer project to give the meat to a country whose people need it. http://www.heifer.org/
Okay, rubah:
1) You seem to be ignoring how most beef cattle are treated. Not just that they're killed, but how they're killed and how they're treated when they're alive. It's excessively cruel.
2) No one is suggesting we take all our current cattle stock and set them free. That's just silly. Just meat production needs to be phased down and regulated to prevent animal cruelty.
If people want meat they should get meat. The government shouldn't artificially regulate it in an attempt curb meat intake.
Not to curb meat intake, to prevent the animals from being raised in bins so that they can't move, fed hormones so that they grow so fast that their legs collapse benieth their weight, dragged to the killing for with a chain around them because they can't walk, and then hung upsidedown by and ankle so they can be stabbed in the throat to bleed to death.
I agree that there should be humane regulations put in place so that these practices do not occur, but I don't believe they should take precedent over supply and demand. If you don't want to eat meat because of the way the animal is treated then I can totally respect that. If enough people partake in protest then it's possible lobbying could change the situation. I'm not going to eat less meat, though.
According to this, the animals are unconscious by the time they are hung up to be killed, usually by a captive bolt pistol. Not sure about animals becoming so fat their legs break.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
The "meat is unhealthy" or "meat intake should be forcibly reduced" argument is ridiculous. Most food is unhealthy. I don't eat exclusively for health reasons. I eat largely because food is tasty. The "cows take up valuable land" argument can be made about anything. If everyone lived in one-room houses, the planet would be much better off. We're human beings, we like luxury. Arguing that cattle raising should be reduced for this reason is very selective and hypocritical.
Animal suffering doesn't really bother me. Something is inevitably going to suffer so I can eat. I'm in favor of reducing the suffering whenever possible, but I don't lose sleep over it. There are far more important problems in the world than miserable cows.
If you choose a want for meat (not need, as most people eat a lot more meat than is healthy) over the well-being of millions of animals, I guess that's on you. I think it's pretty deplorable though.
There are also economic factors at work with subsidies and stuff. A McDonald's burger takes something like $11 to produce. But I guess you probably don't care about that either as long as you get the burger. :aimmad: *kicks Yams in the yams*
EDIT: I didn't say meat intake should be forcibly reduced. And what's ridiculous about excessive meat intake being unhealthy? Is eating yummy food more important than your health and the well-being of the animals in question?
So I guess you're saying you think animal suffering and taking up that extra land is okay because you think meat is yummy. That's the argument I'm seeing from you. And isn't "there are worse things so I don't have to care about this" a logical fallacy of some kind? Aren't you always on about that?
You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not here to force anyone to stop eating meat. I'm not vegetarian myself. I'm just saying this opinion you're entitled to is not cute.
If you weren't intending the set the cattle free, what's the point of complaining about their instincts being written out of them. That wasn't something you said, but someone else did, and I was addressing that.
People treat people just as cruelly as they treat animals sometimes. Maybe we should just start eating people!
Even though I wasn't the one who said it, your jumping from that to setting millions of cattle free isn't very smart either.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubah
I'm just going to pretend you didn't even say that 'cause it's just... Uhh... <3 u anywayz?Quote:
Originally Posted by rubah
Soylent Green is people!
Do they carry it at Trader Joe's?
No, but they carry some very delicious vegan oatmeal cookies!
Screw that. Free range eggs are easy to find.
That's right... THE EGGS IN YOUR COOKIES WERE BROWN!
That always freaks BJ's out for some reason, "Mandy, the eggs are brown!?!?!!"
My grandparent's chickens always lay brown eggs.
Hunting for eggs is like looking for treasure. It's really fun.
I want chickens but the manager of my apartments wont let me build a coop over by the pool area.
Keeping chickens in an apartment complex is not very humane, Shlup. :cool:
Says who?!
It's more important than my health at times, yes. I can't think of anyone who only eats for health, or who never acts in any way that's harmful to your health. For example anyone who ever drinks alcohol values something more than their health.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
I would also say meat intake is more important than the well-being of animals, I suppose. I value my happiness a lot.
My thinking things are yummy doesn't really play into it, though it is true that I do think cows are yummy. Taking up extra land is OK because I see no reason why it's not; however assuming taking up land is not OK, there's no reason cows should be singled out as the place to make improvements. I imagine there are easier things to do that would give greater reduction in land use than eliminating cattle.Quote:
So I guess you're saying you think animal suffering and taking up that extra land is okay because you think meat is yummy. That's the argument I'm seeing from you. And isn't "there are worse things so I don't have to care about this" a logical fallacy of some kind? Aren't you always on about that?
I don't think animal suffering is a good thing, so it's not really a fallacy since I'm not disagreeing. However I'm not willing to do anything about it because 1) I think the level of suffering isn't so terribly bad right now as to demand my attention, 2) I think there are better ways to spend my time, if I wanted to do some good in the world, 3) meat makes me happy. I could spend time caring for suffering human beings, if I wanted to spend time on a worthy cause; a suffering human is worth a great many suffering cows to me.
The vegetarian argument generally comes down to "hurting cows makes me sad". Either it makes you sad or it doesn't. It doesn't make me sad (well not sad enough to stop eating them), but I can easily see how it would make other people sad. There's no need to rationalize your opinion any further than that.
For the most part I don't disagree with you. Well, I do disagree, but I think you're entitled to value steaks and yummies over the suffering of animals and the other things wrong with factory farming, even if it sucks.
However, you seem to be ignoring a lot of arguments for reducing meat intake, a few of which I've already mentioned: the damage it's doing to the environment, freeing up the land and grain used to feed animals to feed starving people, the government subsidies poured into factory farming. Maybe you just don't see them as a problem. I don't know how much you've actually looked into how much of a problem they may or may not be, but if you choose to remain ignorant for the sake of your happiness I can't really say you're bad for that, since we all do that about things. If we cared about everything our lives would be super sad.
Umm, you do realise they're not killed like that, right? Not all cattle are raised like that either.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
Way to overdramatise it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_gun
Note the key point : "The stunning is essential to prevent the pain and suffering of the animal while sticking (bleeding)."
Also, the argument that raising livestock means people starve due to lack of food is a complete fallacy, there's more than enough food produced each year to feed every person on the planet, it's just so much of it goes to waste because of poor distribution. People will starve regardless of whether livestock are raised or not, it's down to governments to distribute food, whatever the source.
I realize not all livestock is killed the same way. What's your point? Captive bolt guns are not always used, and often not used properly. [more info]
And I didn't say raising livestock means people starve to death. Don't twist my words.
Eat: Free Trade, Grain Fed, Organic, Freerange.
OR: Become a vegetarian.
But realize how F'ing privleged you are to have that freedom of choice.
That's it really.
Eating food isn't even about survival any more.
I think that's what bugs me most.
It's about making these super-educated, super-moral, super civilian choices that manage to create a basis for arguement and battle of oppinions.
So on one hand there are people who believe in living as educated and moral beings which is one way of life... but I hardly believe it is more honourable or more human to live this way... than it is to blissfully enjoy the life that was given to you in all its mass produced GMO glory.
Your point, Ashley?
I was considering making a constructive reply, but then I realised that this will just go in circles with me whipping out pro-meat eating evidence and you whipping out anti-meat eating evidence, everyone will get tired and nobody will get anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
Why bother.
I give you less credit for being smart than I should, Lindy.
*goes back to her video game*
And for the record, vegetarian and vegan meals = very yum.
I generally don't eat much in the way of meat. I'm not a complete veggetarian yet however when me and Tinker's move in together to make things cheaper and more easier on her I will make the full transition to veggetarian food. I eat fish as does Tinker's which is where most of the protein comes from in my diet. As for my perspective of the way animals for meat are raised I prefer the free range organic or "grass fed" meat but in all honesty that stuff can cost up to TRIPLE (I work in a major UK supermarket company so see this all the time) the price of normal "mass farmed" produce. It's a lot like the fur trade and stuff at times, I don't mind the farming and killing of animals for their hide/meat as long as every part of the beast can be used. For example, a cow is eaten as beef, a cow's hide is leather and therefore a valuble material in clothing and shoe making, a cow's bones can be given to dogs to chew on and they gain health through the marrow within them. Everything can and is generally used in my eyes we should be more like the french in this respect you can kill anything you like as long as every part of the animal is used for something (except the wording in french law is you can hunt anything as long as you are hunting it to be food on your table).
I edited my response,Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
but basically my point was that
Vegetarian... not vegetarian...
I think its more important to understand the basis of our arguements are completely reliant on our ability to have these choices.
My major concern is with the moral battle that occurs. I just want to make it clear that I don't feel its proper to say anyone is a better person based on consumption choices.
No, but one choice can be better suited for the individual and society over the other. I don't think any sane person is arguing that particular consumption habits entail moral superiority.
You seem to be making some interesting assumptions.
EDIT: In response to Ashley.
Schlup: What am I assuming?
Yams: I agree.
I don't know, but you're making weird comments that makes me assume that you're assuming weird things that I don't know what you're thinking.
Well rest assured dear PandaQuote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
I have no idea what you're thinking either.
I just wanted to comment on the morality battles that occur....
not necessarily in respons to any one post in particular but in general.
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3204/bigpot6xp0.jpg
And I'll probably kill them cruelly.
Har har, we are so amused.
Someone always posts that whenever we have this thread.
You'd think it was merely to be funny, it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
I have an actual list of people who don't eat meat so I eat their share.
Well then I hope whenever those people see you they punch you square in the face.
Well, if they weren't too scared to try, I'd welcome the attempt. Maybe they could put up a decent fight too.
I'm not a vegetarian. I wouldn't be physically able to at this point, either. My doctor has me on a strict low-fiber diet for a while, so the only vegetable that I really like that I can eat as much as I want of right now is green beans. :(
I agree with Unne. Arguments concerning whether eating meat is good or not comes down to whether the thought of killing animals for food is okay with you or not. Other arguments against eating meat are irrationally selective. Yes, it takes up more space - so does a bunch of other things. Yes, it costs more - so does a bunch of other things you do (anyone drive a car when you could otherwise walk/bike/carpool/public transportation? That wastes a bunch more than eating a burger over salad). Same with the enviromental issue.
Some of the animals probably suffer. So does wildlife being shot for food, and most vegetarians in this thread seem okay with animals just being killed for food. Hell, animals suffer from farming, too. It's the amount of suffering one is willing to accept which becomes the deciding factor, and it is completely arbitrary. I'm all for limiting any suffering where ever reasonably possible, but an animal's brief suffering to produce food makes me lose less sleep than starving Africans, which makes me lose none.
You're ignoring a lot of things here. But since you have no soul anyway I guess that's okay.
So you don't think there is anything wrong with humans eating other humans then? I'm a vegetarian. I have been since I was around two or three.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemical
They kill field mice during the beef production season?Quote:
Originally Posted by abrojtm
I'm vegetarian, too! ^^ I started almost a year ago! ^^ I became vegetarian because I saw a video of ppl from KFC stomping on chickens, throwing them at walls, even cramming them in small cages with otehr chickens, dead or alive...and all this while they were still alive..humans can be so cruel..Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmy16
What am I ignoring? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
I never understood the, "I'm not losing any sleep" argument. What the hell does that mean? Do you have a hard time falling asleep?
Only around you. :love:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaneko
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaisaSo you don't think there is anything wrong with humans eating other humans then? I'm a vegetarian. I have been since I was around two or three.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemical
I don't know if you read the rest of that post but human wasn't on the menu.
Don't waste my time and question me with such a rhetorical and silly question when the answer is located in the rest of the post and all previous posts I made up to that point.
It's not a silly question at all. What's silly is claiming a person shouldn't be judged on consumption choices, an then totally contradicting yourself. If you think it's not proper to say anyone is a better person based on consumption choices, then you're no better than a cannibal, An a vegetarian is no better than you. To say otherwise would make you a hypocrite.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChemicalQuote:
Originally Posted by AnaisaSo you don't think there is anything wrong with humans eating other humans then? I'm a vegetarian. I have been since I was around two or three.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemical
I don't know if you read the rest of that post but human wasn't on the menu.
Don't waste my time and question me with such a rhetorical and silly question when the answer is located in the rest of the post and all previous posts I made up to that point.
This statement makes absolutely no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
If I think it makes perfect sense what does that say about me? :/
Let me translate:
If you believe that what one deems "food" is not grounds for judging them, and that all consumption choices are equal, then you are equal to cannibals.
I think that's what he meant, at least.
EDIT: I'll get to you later, Raistin. You fat tard.
I believe what Chemical was referring to was food consumption within the context of a vegetarian/non-vegetarian debate, and as such no moral standard of superiority could be attained. No one is talking about cannibalism, so I don't see how that line of reasoning was ever reached.
Precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaneko
We're talking about items found in the supermarket, not in Helter Skelter's lunchbox.
I had established and maintained that the context of my remark's were entirely within context of vegetarian/non-vegetarianism.
Just... read the posts. Read. Don't look... read.
Well some people like to bring statements outside of the realm of the debate. If not eating animals so as to not contribute to their suffering isn't any better than not caring and eating them, wouldn't it be logical that not eating people so as not to contribute to their suffering isn't any better than not caring and eating them?
And, yes, I realize it's a stupid argument.
My major concern is with the moral battle that occurs. I just want to make it clear that I don't feel its proper to say anyone is a better person based on consumption choices. -- Chemical
I was going to say that I didn't consider myself morally superior, but then I realise that I do feel superior to some omnivores. Not to the people who don't raise the issues with themselves (the people whose only thought when eating meat is along the lines of, "Wow, this burger is delicious") - I can't feel superior to somebody who doesn't even take it as an issue. They're the kind of people who I wouldn't even bother discussing vegetarianism with, because they simply don't get it. For example, there'd be no point discussing it with NorthernChaosGod - waste of my time and his.
The people I do feel superior to are the people who justify meat-eating to themselves (much in the same way that I justify eating fish to myself). The people who have raised the question with themselves. They obviously have some idea that keeping animals in a restricted environment and then killing them is Not A Good Thing, but then they choose to ignore it. I don't think that's right.
No, because in order to provide a logical argument it must first be grounded within practical reality. Dreaming up radical scenarios in order to prove a point against legitimate logic, i.e. eating vegetables does not make you morally superior and vice versa (in fact the moral question is off the table), is a waste of time and contributes nothing to the debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
Well I've just always wanted to taste grilled baby so there's that.
Schlup: I welcome "statements outside of the realm of debate."
Under the circumstance that they're educated about the dialog they're adressing and understand it as opposed to reacting in an accusatory and ignorant manner.
EDIT: Ehn I don't want to talk about cannibalism anymore.
ohhh no dats no good u need meat!!!! full of iron :D
I hope by "your argument" you don't mean my argument. I was just translating.
I'm not a vegetarian because I think meat is YUM.
One of my friends pointed out that he was a vegetarian due to Hinduism once so I snuck some sausage under all the other crap on his pizza.
It’s funny because I totally [leeza]*snip*[/leeza] up his karma.
[leeza]Do not go around the filters. ~ Leeza[/leeza]
My favorite argument of all. xP
EDIT: In response to Miriel. Nasarian is just a jerk.
I can respect this at the personal level, but beyond that, no. I know what kind of conditions some animals live in and how they're killed, and I believe that to be "not a good thing", but I don't know if it's wrong because I'm honestly not well enough educated in the subject. However, I still choose to eat meat despite this knowledge and enjoy it. By your standards that makes you a better person than me, at least in some regard, but universally it doesn't. If I was a thief or a murderer then you would be, but here there's really no basis for such an argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burtsplurt
So you think that feeling something is wrong but choosing continuing to contibute to it without any attempt to help the problem doesn't make you suck? Even a little?
I don't eat vast quantities of meat, so eating less would make me unhappy. I value my happiness and the happiness of other people over the well-being of a non-human animal.
I already do suck. A little more won't hurt.
Alright, just as long as you admit you suck a little.
Not as much as you, though. :tongue:
Well that's just 'cause I'm fat. But whatyagonnado.
I'd be very wary of eating any form of meat that came from America, myself. Just because of some documentaries I've seen on the way animals are treated over there.
But, inhumane practices happen all over the globe.
I think it's important for people to know where there meat comes from, otherwise it's just ignorance. I'm happy to eat meat, because I know where mine comes from and I know that where I am we have good animal welfare standards.
But, just because I like meat, doesn't mean I'll just eat anything.
I wonder sometimes, why people don't fork out a few extra dollars for free-range eggs or things like that.
It's extremely simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaneko
Allow your friend Devil Man to educate you.
'I am not losing any sleep' means 'I am not going to let it bother me.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by YamanekoThis statement makes absolutely no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
It makes perfect sense.
When an animal eats food out of its own [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img], I consider that repulsive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil ManQuote:
Originally Posted by Nominus Experse
Oh, that is VERY intellectual, isn't it Nominus Experse? 'Animals are disgusting and the thought of eating a repulsive creature disgusts me'.
Feh...
How foolish thou thinking is! :mad2:
Clearly you have never heard of the PURE EVIL that is broccoli. Or asparagus. Or spinach. Or cucumbers. Or tomatoes. Or carrots.
Vegetables aren't much better then Meat, man!
Broccoli will ALWAYS be 100,000 times more disgusting then any of Mother Nature's creatures, young one!
DON'T CALL INNOCENT, TASTY CREATURES REPULSIVE :mad2:
And broccolli contains certain chemicals that certain people can taste, and others cannot. Those that taste these chemicals can't see how others can stand what they deem as disgusting.
And all those vegetables you listed contain vital vitamins and minerals, not to mention fiber and the like, to keep you healthy. Meat contains only iron, zinc, and other small amounts of minerals.
My thoughts are to simply balance your diet effectively via being an omnivore or veggetarian. You can't survive by only eating meat.
Recall the phrase, "You are what you eat."
It bears merit. Furthermore, the thought is exactly that - a thought. It's a personal opinion that doesn't need facts or intellectual backing to exist. We can pretend that we have facts and the like, but it all comes down to choice and personal disposition.
I'd like to add that I don't mind animals being killed for food at all, humans are omnivores and the ones that are being unusual are vegetarians, but really, some places are just excessively cruel. If that were my prime reason for wanting to be a vegetarian, I'd only eat meat from places where I know that the animals aren't fattening to the point where their legs break, or fried alive, or had their beaks snapped off, etc. I'm not into PETA practices (it'll be a million years until you find me living in a tree or going to TGIF in a cow suit), but their KFC video made me sob, it was so horrifying. So yeah. I'm not a very hardcore vegetarian, my reasons are more personal, I still crave meat at times, and I couldn't care less if people eat meat because like I said, humans ARE omnivores and that's just natural, but I still think that excessive cruelty needs to be cut down.
Just look at it like this: how much does the flavor of the meat change if the animal is just killed quickly and as painlessly as possible as opposed to if the animal is tortured and killed slowly and painfully? I'd warrant on not very much if at all.
Ok well most farm grown for eating meat is fed on a food that contains offal from dead members of the herd, not their faeces.
I saw a program on TV the other night and well for the 3 minutes or so I watched they were showing how sheep are killed in UK abbatoirs for meat. They put this clamp thing on the sheeps neck and from the moment the animal is clamped it is completely unconcious they then hang the animal up and slit it's throat to kill it. What I saw didn't look painless even though the program insisted it was, I don't see why alternative methods to this could be used, silenced pistol to the back of the head, (knock the animal out but rather than slit the throat, shoot it) a lethal dose of anaesetic/toxin that would be harmless to humans?
I was amused by that image, actually :p.
Are you referring to using electricity to kill animals when slaughtering them? If so, I don't thunk that's a very bad approach, really. It's quick, and it doesn't make a lot of mess, meaning it's hygienic too. I certainly don't have first hand experience, but I doubt they feel more discomfort when electrocuted instead of getting a steel bolt shot into their brains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rye
I'm an omnivore myself, but more on the carniside of it :p, I love the taste of meat, especially cows and such. I don't have any problems seeing an animal being killed for the sake of feeding me either. It comes natural to me, just like it's natural for a wolf to kill for food, and I don't think I would have had a problem killing an animal for food by myself.
I also hope you who are against the killing of animals don't happen to wear anything made of leather by accident, such as a belt, or parts of your shoes.
Do you drive a car? Do you use electricity that you don't really need? Do you ever eat out when you could eat in?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
Everybody does something harmful or wasteful every day. Most people do a gut-check cost-benefit analysis to consider whether stopping or restricting something is worth it. In the vast majority of cases, most people decide that it's not worth it to them. Sounds perfectly logical to me. Things can be bad, but either not worth the effort of stopping or better than any alternative.
No, I mean dunking them in burning liquid and frying and boiling them to death. Electrocution would be more humane than boiling something alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirageI was amused by that image, actually :p.
Are you referring to using electricity to kill animals when slaughtering them? If so, I don't thunk that's a very bad approach, really. It's quick, and it doesn't make a lot of mess, meaning it's hygienic too. I certainly don't have first hand experience, but I doubt they feel more discomfort when electrocuted instead of getting a steel bolt shot into their brains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rye
I'm an omnivore myself, but more on the carniside of it :p, I love the taste of meat, especially cows and such. I don't have any problems seeing an animal being killed for the sake of feeding me either. It comes natural to me, just like it's natural for a wolf to kill for food, and I don't think I would have had a problem killing an animal for food by myself.
I also hope you who are against the killing of animals don't happen to wear anything made of leather by accident, such as a belt, or parts of your shoes.
But with that said, the cruelty is not my main reason for becoming a vegetarian. I just wanted to bring up a point. My view of cruelty in killing animals for food is similar to my view of animal testing. As bad as it sounds, it needs to be done in the present for medical testing (just as obviously some animals have to be killed for food, it's the food chain and humans are omnivores), though the cruelty could be cut down quite a bit. But testing animals for cosmetic reasons? Please. Find some money-grubbers to do that, there are plenty. I find animal testing for cosmetic reasons stupid and disgusting, just like I find being excessively cruel to animals when killing them to make food, when you can kill them more quickly and humanely for the same purpose.
It makes perfect sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamanekoThis statement makes absolutely no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
No, certainly not. If we applied that logic to humans, then murdering people wouldn't be a crime anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaneko
It's logical, you just don't understand it. If you believe that nobody is morally superior to anyone else regardless of what they eat, then to say that you're morally superior to a human that eats another human, because you don't eat other humans, would be a total contradiction.Quote:
No, because in order to provide a logical argument it must first be grounded within practical reality. Dreaming up radical scenarios in order to prove a point against legitimate logic, i.e. eating vegetables does not make you morally superior and vice versa (in fact the moral question is off the table), is a waste of time and contributes nothing to the debate.
Read it but don't look at it.....? An you're claiming my posts don't make sense! You think a vegetarian is no more morally superior to you for not consuming animals, but you think you're better than a cannibal because you don't consume humans. You think that because you consider humans to be of much higher worth than animals. But certain vegetarians don't. So them considering themselves to be morally superior to you for not eating animals, is the same as you thinking you're superior to a cannibal, for not eating humans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemical
I'm educated about what I'm addressing, it's you who's failing to grasp it. An it's only out of the realm of debate as far as you're concerned, because you don't understand how eating a human can be compared to eating an animal. To somebody who values the lives of both animals an humans, it makes perfect sense. So it's not me who is being ignorant, but rather you, which is why you're failing to understand the comparisons between eating humans, an eating animals.Quote:
Schlup: I welcome "statements outside of the realm of debate."
Under the circumstance that they're educated about the dialog they're adressing and understand it as opposed to reacting in an accusatory and ignorant manner.
EDIT: Ehn I don't want to talk about cannibalism anymore.
Yes, but nobody is actually saying that, so this is a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.. The obvious implication in the assertion made by Yamaneko and Chemical is that choices between what we currently have as sources for food are not inherently morally superior/inferior to any other choices in that category. Drawing an absurd, extreme conclusion from a point in order to justify another point is a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. logical fallacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
Quote:
Drawing an absurd, extreme conclusion from a point in order to justify another point is a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. logical fallacy.
It's absurd to maybe you maybe, but not other people. It makes completely perfect sense to me. And maybe it's a 'really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. logical fallacy' to you, but certainly not to me. She made a statement and backed it up brilliantly.
Anaisa makes an excellent point.
It's not a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking., nor a logical fallacy. Somebody else not being capable of understanding the logic behind it, doesn't make it a logical fallacy. It's a clear comparison. An I didn't say that's what was said, I said if that's what you believe. An it clearly is what they believe. If they don't, then fine, their point stands. But if they do, it's as I've said, hypocritical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
o hai ad hominemQuote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
Cannabilism (sp?) is not the topic of this thread at all so why is it even being discussed here? Take that to another thread please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent, Thunder God
If she eats fish then she isn't a vegetarian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent, Thunder God
I think exactly the same as you. xD Although it wasn't the cruelty that made to be vegetarian, but never mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rye
The topic of this thread though, is who else here is a vegetarian, an what your reasons are for being one. So if we're to stick to those exact specifications, a great deal of this thread is off topic. Not just the cannibal discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeza
Yes, Anaisa. A great deal of this thread is not on topic, but cannibalism is way off the mark.
I think if you know something is wrong and you keep doing it, you suck very hard. I call it the burden of having a brain. I read the link you posted about slaughter in Britain and now either I have to convince myself it isn't all true, or else my conscience is going to be tortured by my own suckitude. So thanks a lot. :mad2:Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
But cannibilism is meat eating, so it's not really way off the mark. Since this thread has now become a discussion on the morals of meat eating an vegetarianism. If we were discussing random cases of cannibalism or something, I would agree it was way off the mark. But when in the context of whether it's morally justifiable to kill an animal, the comparison to killing another life form an eating it, is not really way off the mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeza
You also suck for buying products made in third-world countries because you know they're paying some kid a dollar a day, but you continue to purchase them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr UnneI think if you know something is wrong and you keep doing it, you suck very hard. I call it the burden of having a brain. I read the link you posted about slaughter in Britain and now either I have to convince myself it isn't all true, or else my conscience is going to be tortured by my own suckitude. So thanks a lot. :mad2:Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
Anaisa: Cannibalism is wrong under most circumstances and can't be compared practically to killing and eating non-human animals.
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The cannablism thing is a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. if you're trying to use that example to try to justify an argument that eating animals is bad. If you're not doing that, then it isn't a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. - it's just dumb, because no one actually thinks that, so it's a waste of time trying to argue it.
*looks up* Scarry.
So..
I like meat and A1 steaksauce, I can't even fathom being a vegetarian.
:razz:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaneko
It can be compared on the basis of morals. If you believe it's acceptable to kill an eat an animal, but not a human, it gives a clear representation of where your morals lie. An why most people having such double standards, are not in a fit position to make a sound judgement on how animals should be treated. An that's the same reason why you don't understand the comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin
I bought a car with a good EPA rating a great gas mileage, I carpool when possible, and I moved so that I could walk to school and work. For a long time I drove once a month or two, now because of student teaching it's about three times a month. Next quarter I start student teaching full-time, I'm moving there.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaistlinDo you drive a car? Do you use electricity that you don't really need? Do you ever eat out when you could eat in?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
Everybody does something harmful or wasteful every day. Most people do a gut-check cost-benefit analysis to consider whether stopping or restricting something is worth it. In the vast majority of cases, most people decide that it's not worth it to them. Sounds perfectly logical to me. Things can be bad, but either not worth the effort of stopping or better than any alternative.
I do my best to conserve electricity.
I very rarely eat out.
If you think something is wrong and you do nothing to try and help, you suck.
[img]http://home.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/heart.gif[/img][img]http://home.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/heart.gif[/img][img]http://home.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/heart.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr UnneI think if you know something is wrong and you keep doing it, you suck very hard. I call it the burden of having a brain. I read the link you posted about slaughter in Britain and now either I have to convince myself it isn't all true, or else my conscience is going to be tortured by my own suckitude. So thanks a lot. :mad2:Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
It's not hard to do something. It's not like you have to become a vegetarian to lower the demand for meat, just don't eat as much excess of it.
Hey, gotta make money somehow. A dollar a day is a freaking lot to those people. It's probably either work in a factory or be sold for sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaneko
And I like how when other's are being scolded for discussing cannibalism 'cause it's off topic, you go into child labor. xD
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
Are you mocking the lives of those people who are less fortunate then you? What a snobbish attitude.
With the global norm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
So everyone except crazy PETA people are wrong then? A cow's life is as valuable as any humans' life?Quote:
An why most people having such double standards, are not in a fit position to make a sound judgement on how animals should be treated. An that's the same reason why you don't understand the comparison.
Uhm, no, I'm not. Interesting interpretation though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil ManQuote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
Are you mocking the lives of those people who are less fortunate then you? What a snobbish attitude.
Your good friend Devil Man stand corrected :holmes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
'twas an interesting interpretation though, wasn't it? :holmes:
Humans > animals.
End of discussion.
Not everybody who cares about animals is a member of peta. An a cows life is just as valuable as a humans life, in my opinion. Of course most people would disagree, because their biased.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamanekoQuote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
Yeah.Quote:
With the global norm?
So everyone except crazy PETA people are wrong then? A cow's life is as valuable as any humans' life?Quote:
An why most people having such double standards, are not in a fit position to make a sound judgement on how animals should be treated. An that's the same reason why you don't understand the comparison.
As if!Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernChaosGod
That's extremely sad, if I'm not worth more than a cow. That's a really harmful attitude to have. If a child and a cow were both drowning together, who would you save first? I'd want both to be saved, but I'd go for the child first.
I care about animals and am big on animal welfare, but yea.
I tend to agree with the Universalist perspective, which says a human is worth more than a cow. Most of the time, at least. Not that I can think of any example where it wouldn't be.
Basically, it's whatever's better for the greater good. If doing testing on three rats will save lives, do it. If eating one person will keep ten more alive, do it.
Yes, I don't think that Vegetarians are any more morally superior than myself bu I haven't given my oppinion anywhere about canibalism. (you brought it up, I've been trying to tell you it wasn't part of the discussion) Anywhere. I never even stated I felt morally superior to anyone, infact I've been vying for moral equality between Vegetarians and Meat Eaters. Your accusation is thus ridiculous and ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
I'm educated about what I'm addressing, it's you who's failing to grasp it. An it's only out of the realm of debate as far as you're concerned, because you don't understand how eating a human can be compared to eating an animal. To somebody who values the lives of both animals an humans, it makes perfect sense. So it's not me who is being ignorant, but rather you, which is why you're failing to understand the comparisons between eating humans, an eating animals.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Schlup: I welcome "statements outside of the realm of debate."
Under the circumstance that they're educated about the dialog they're adressing and understand it as opposed to reacting in an accusatory and ignorant manner.
EDIT: Ehn I don't want to talk about cannibalism anymore.
What are (or atleast were you adressing?) Since you don't seem to remember, let me tell you. You were adressing a post of mine. You were adressing the fact that I stated individuals should NOT be considered morally superior to eachother based on consumption habbits (within the context of vegetarianism/meat eating). Thus to bring in a moot point such as canibalism is ... well moot, and ignoring about the issue you initially chose to adress.
I am totally capable of understaing "how eating a human can be compared to eating animal" but I have delibrately chosen not to discuss this matter under the circumstance that it has nothing to do with the arguement I have been adressing. So yes... yes it is you who is ignorant.
See: Raistlin's post.
See: Leeza's post
See: Yamaneko's post.
The point is that all of us are trying to make you see that canibalism is not suitable or pertinent to the discussion of Vegetarianism and Non-Vegetarianism.
If you are going to adress morality under these circumstances you need to strengthen it with evidence and information within this realm.
Human is off the menu.
Why? Because Leeza said so.
Why? Because human isn't accepted in our culture (where as eating meat is).
Why? Because. It's not legal.
Why? Because! Because! Because!
I love my Steak and Potatoes, and don't plan to change! :)
It's more harmful to think that its ok for humans to slaughter animals, than it is to think animal life should be valued as much as human life. Whole species of animals can become extinct or endangered thanks to that attitude. My attitude isn't responsible for killing or endangering anybody. If a cow an a child were drowning, an I had to save one first, it would be the child. Because the cow is probably going to get murdered an eaten if I save it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty
The greater good for humans that is. Although it's not actually the best thing for humans. Since tests on another human would be far more accurate, an we have prisoners who could actually serve a purpose an be tested on instead of animals. Of course I'm only talking about people in prison for terrible crimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShlupQuack
If we're following the rule of don't bring anything up unless it's part of the discussion, most posts in this thread shouldn't be here, since it's supposed to be about vegetarians an why their a vegetarian. So you saying you don't think vegetarians are more morally superior to you, is not fit for what is supposed to be discussed either. You have given your opinion about cannabilism, because you've said it doesn't belong in this thread, an it can't be compared to humans eating animals. You've made it totally obvious that what I'm accusing you of, is true. If it's not, then you'd say otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemical
No, I'm totally clear on what I'm saying, an that's blatantly obvious. I'm well aware I was addressing your post, hence me quoting it, an responding to it. It's not a moot point. It's a moot point to you, because you think it's acceptable to kill an eat animals, but not humans. Which makes you a hypocrite, which makes your entire stance on the matter moot.Quote:
What are (or atleast were you adressing?) Since you don't seem to remember, let me tell you. You were adressing a post of mine. You were adressing the fact that I stated individuals should NOT be considered morally superior to eachother based on consumption habbits (within the context of vegetarianism/meat eating). Thus to bring in a moot point such as canibalism is ... well moot, and ignoring about the issue you initially chose to adress.
If you could understand how eating a human can be compared to eating an animal, you'd understand why it is part of the argument. An you have chosen to discuss the matter. If you hadn't, I wouldn't be responding to your post about it now would I.Quote:
I am totally capable of understaing "how eating a human can be compared to eating animal" but I have delibrately chosen not to discuss this matter under the circumstance that it has nothing to do with the arguement I have been adressing. So yes... yes it is you who is ignorant.
No, you may think it's not pertinent to the discussion. It's not pertinent to what is supposed to be being discussed, but neither are the majority of posts in this thread.Quote:
See: Raistlin's post.
See: Leeza's post
See: Yamaneko's post.
The point is that all of us are trying to make you see that canibalism is not suitable or pertinent to the discussion of Vegetarianism and Non-Vegetarianism.
The evidence an information is clear. Murdering an eating animals is considered to be fine. Murdering an eating humans is a crime. If you think that is acceptable, you obviously don't have the morals that are required to make a suitable judgement on how animals should be treated.Quote:
If you are going to adress morality under these circumstances you need to strengthen it with evidence and information within this realm.
Well then if you agree, you shouldn't be making posts about it.Quote:
Human is off the menu.
Why? Because Leeza said so.
That's the whole point!Quote:
Why? Because human isn't accepted in our culture (where as eating meat is).
Why? Because. It's not legal.
Meat eaters aren't capable of understanding how animal life should be as valued as human life, if they could, they wouldn't be meat eaters.Quote:
Why? Because! Because! Because!
So how come PETA and other such animal rights groups advocate and accept violence against humans if humans and animals are equal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
I'm not a member of peta, an after having some dealings with peta myself, I question their motives. But humans are violent towards animals, so them being violent back to humans is equal. Their only advocating violence against humans, because of the way they treat animals.Quote:
Originally Posted by LindySo how come PETA and other such animal rights groups advocate and accept violence against humans if humans and animals are equal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
Actually, if you look at the group that is currently acting against Huntingdon Life Sciences they tend to attack the families of the people who work there, or the people only related on the periphery (delivery truck drivers for example). Most of the time any kind of attacks are against people who are entirely uninvolved in the experiments on animals, such as the threat to bomb a nursery where children of the staff and scientists are sent.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4290174.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1494924.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1185715.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2205442.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/c...re/4299447.stm
I lol'd at you saying that violence against humans is ok, way to completely invalidate any kind of moral superiority you have by not eating meat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindy
Yeah, and LOL, you are going wayyyyyy off topic Mr ex-boyfriend of Xander. LOL.
And SHE, as in ANAISA, isn't saying violence against humans is okay. She is explaining to you why PETA thinks it is justified.
And she disagrees with it.
LOL. Super-smart Lindy can't even read a Post properly.
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I never said violence against humans was acceptable whatever the circumstance. If a human was kicking a kitten, an I stopped them by kicking them in the face, that would be fine by my standards. However, bombing a nursery because some children there are related to someone who hurts animals, is despicable, an certainly not something I agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindy
I used to be vegetarian, my mother made me be. Since she stopped that I decided I don't really have a problem with eating animals. But animals can feel pain, and they can suffer, so I should damn well hope they are treated well before they are killed.
WTF? Why are we talking about cannabilism? I thought this thread was about the consumption of animals, and strictly animals.
Going off on some tangent such as this seems like a long-winded and terribly faulted method of trying to validate a flawed point.
And PETA makes me laugh - a kind of laugh that you force yourself to take so as not to cry from the sheer patheticness of it all. Animals are not people. Most livestock seem to have the brain capacity of a cucumber. You could argue that this is due to the breeding practives, and much of it is, but if something is seriosuly that unaware, I have to wonder why it isn't labeled nothing more than "FOOD".
I've seen chickens with personalities and character. And I've seen cows with such things also. But they weren't being raised for food. When something is raised for food, I see no reason to call it anything else.
It could be deemed as wrong to raise things specifically for food, but in this present day and age, we cannot possibly detach ourselves from these farms. There are too many mouths to feed. And look at what it would do to the economy...
Is it morally superior? I don't think so. Furthermore, morals are something personal and can and are interpretted differently.
My thoughts are eat what you want, but don't deem yourself more pure simply because you don't eat meat. More likely than not, you still subsidize the meat industries in some form or another anyways...
Clearly, the only solution is to find a way to manipulate DNA to breed completely brain-dead animals. They’re not missing anything, and we get to pump them full of chemicals and generally treat them like giant meat-bags without activists getting on our asses about it. It’s win/win.
They are actually working on methods to basically "grow" meat; in other words, they are growing the muscle tissue instead of the animal. Much more efficient in terms of labor and costs, and it would be quite humane, obviously, since the only thing involved is the DNA and tissue made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasarian Altimeros
They can grow skin and the like, so they are making steps towards greater things. The focus is organ replishments, but the technolgy is a very interesting farming prospect.
The solution is to eat vegetarian burgers :bigsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasarian Altimeros
Meat eaters can pretend they are full o' meat like normal burgers.
And vegetarians can be rest assured they ain't chomping down on any meat :roll:
Apparently so did most people. But you're wrong. It is supposed to be about vegetarians, an their reasons for being vegetarians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nominus Experse
It is a flawed point to you. But it is not actually a flawed point at all.Quote:
Going off on some tangent such as this seems like a long-winded and terribly faulted method of trying to validate a flawed point.
So if something is unintelligent, it's ok to eat it. If that's the case, it's ok to eat unintelligent people then.Quote:
And PETA makes me laugh - a kind of laugh that you force yourself to take so as not to cry from the sheer patheticness of it all. Animals are not people. Most livestock seem to have the brain capacity of a cucumber. You could argue that this is due to the breeding practives, and much of it is, but if something is seriosuly that unaware, I have to wonder why it isn't labeled nothing more than "FOOD".
So if people starting having children so they could raise them, an then eat them, that would be ok.Quote:
I've seen chickens with personalities and character. And I've seen cows with such things also. But they weren't being raised for food. When something is raised for food, I see no reason to call it anything else.
It would improve the economy, do your research.Quote:
It could be deemed as wrong to raise things specifically for food, but in this present day and age, we cannot possibly detach ourselves from these farms. There are too many mouths to feed. And look at what it would do to the economy...
Quote:
According to the WorldWatch Institute "Massive reductions in meat consumption in industrial nations will ease the health care burden while improving public health; declining livestock herds will take pressure off of rangelands and grainlands, allowing the agricultural resource base to rejuvenate. As populations grow, lowering meat consumption worldwide will allow more efficient use of declining per capita land and water resources, while at the same time making grain more affordable to the world's chronically hungry.
Obviously you don't think so, you're a meat eater. In what way morally, can murdering something an eating it, because you like the taste, be seen as a good thing?Quote:
Is it morally superior? I don't think so. Furthermore, morals are something personal and can and are interpretted differently.
Of course we do, but that's not by choice.Quote:
My thoughts are eat what you want, but don't deem yourself more pure simply because you don't eat meat. More likely than not, you still subsidize the meat industries in some form or another anyways...
It would probably take less effort to scramble some cows brain than it would to create a vegetarian burger that not only tasted like a real burger, but had the same consistency as one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Man
Right now vegetarian burgers are almost as bad a lie as Coke Zero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
My Good Friend Quin 'N' Tonic is doomed :(
Show me how it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaisa
Meh, nevermind, let us move on - we needn't regurgitate the thing again...
Quote:
And PETA makes me laugh - a kind of laugh that you force yourself to take so as not to cry from the sheer patheticness of it all. Animals are not people. Most livestock seem to have the brain capacity of a cucumber. You could argue that this is due to the breeding practives, and much of it is, but if something is seriosuly that unaware, I have to wonder why it isn't labeled nothing more than "FOOD".
However, I think we agree there is a difference in what we deem "human" and what we deem "animal". Until I see sapience and sentience in an animal, I see no reason to place them with humans.Quote:
So if something is unintelligent, it's ok to eat it. If that's the case, it's ok to eat unintelligent people then.
Quote:
I've seen chickens with personalities and character. And I've seen cows with such things also. But they weren't being raised for food. When something is raised for food, I see no reason to call it anything else.
Nit-picky...Quote:
So if people starting having children so they could raise them, an then eat them, that would be ok.
If an ANIMAL is raised for food, I see no reason to call it anything different.
That a better sentence for you?
Quote:
It could be deemed as wrong to raise things specifically for food, but in this present day and age, we cannot possibly detach ourselves from these farms. There are too many mouths to feed. And look at what it would do to the economy...
I will admit that I ought to have placed an "I think" in my statement somewhere... I've only heard such things, so I thought it as fact.Quote:
It would improve the economy, do your research.
Quote:
According to the WorldWatch Institute "Massive reductions in meat consumption in industrial nations will ease the health care burden while improving public health; declining livestock herds will take pressure off of rangelands and grainlands, allowing the agricultural resource base to rejuvenate. As populations grow, lowering meat consumption worldwide will allow more efficient use of declining per capita land and water resources, while at the same time making grain more affordable to the world's chronically hungry.
Where might I read more of this article? It piques my curiousity.
Quote:
Is it morally superior? I don't think so. Furthermore, morals are something personal and can and are interpretted differently.
If you read my earlier post, you would come to know I don't much care for meat.Quote:
Obviously you don't think so, you're a meat eater. In what way morally, can murdering something an eating it, because you like the taste, be seen as a good thing?
And when I am proclaiming myself morally superior? If you think it implied, I assure you, I meant no such thing.
Furthermore, I never said that killing and eating an animal for meat was a good thing. I just see it as natural and not something to make an event of.
Quote:
My thoughts are eat what you want, but don't deem yourself more pure simply because you don't eat meat. More likely than not, you still subsidize the meat industries in some form or another anyways...
It is frustrating, isn't it?Quote:
Of course we do, but that's not by choice.
I proclaim Anaisa the queen of pulling arguments out of context! :love:
Nominus feel free to correct me on this.
I have read Nominus's post and deciphered the context(in other words payed attention to what I was reading rather than just looking for an someone/something to argue with). You can't just go by the words in this case because unintelligent covers just about everything under the blue moon; thus, one must acertian the degrees through the context.
Anaisa wrote, "So if something is unintelligent, it's ok to eat it. If that's the case, it's ok to eat unintelligent people then" in reply to Nominus's, " Most livestock seem to have the brain capacity of a cucumber."
Lets do this a sentence at a time, shall we?
First Nominus and his cucumber capacity. The degree to which he is speaking of unintelligent is quite high. And he is right one quick thing that comes to mind is ALL animals except humans(and possibly dogs) lack the ability of fast mapping which is an ability that is almost symonous with intelligence. In addition there is much more than just that which as a species completely puts us in another sphere than all other animals.
Enough there, lets head on to Anaisa's sentence.
"So if something is unintelligent, it's ok to eat it."
This statement alone is quite vague(due to how broad unintelligent is); however, being in reply to Nominus as well as in how it also appears as an attempt to summarize his post I can assume that unintelligent is in the same context.
Her second sentence-
"If that's the case, it's ok to eat unintelligent people then"
Once again it can be vague(which was likely the intention in order to set up a form of really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.); however, lets look at it closely. Being in reply to Nominus(and considering she has no other context significant context) we can assume it is using the same degree of unintelligent. Which would mean just about the only humans who aren't intelligent would already be A) brain dead[which is the same as dead], B) dead or I guess there is a slight possibility of C) they had some sort of genetic malfunction that disabled the forms of intellengence that seperates humans from animals in general. Anyways in 2/3 of the cases I don't find it immoral, a bit distrubing maybe but not immoral. The last case meh, I have never heard of such a case but they would only be human in shape and not in reality if it did occur.
Of course another possibility is that Anaisa was using a different type of intelligence that what was implied in Nominus's post, in which case we can assume that the argument feel flat due to misinterpretation(whether intentional or accidental is moot to me).
Animals eat other animals, so I see no reason why we shouldn't as well.
The discussion has reached its limit. I don't see any new details emerging that would allow us to further it so it's time to close this.