What's the point of Necron? You beat Kuj (A.K.A the Crossdresser) Then HE appears....What's the point of adding him in without any kinda explanation?:confused: :confused::kaodizzy:
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What's the point of Necron? You beat Kuj (A.K.A the Crossdresser) Then HE appears....What's the point of adding him in without any kinda explanation?:confused: :confused::kaodizzy:
He's a homage to the deus ex machina final bosses of the earlier games in the series.
Never knew that......So.....but still....is he explained AT ALL?!?
No, not really. At least a few people will most likely post a link to a convoluted and complex but ultimately non-canon theory explaining him, but he's nothing but a force of nature.
Why do you think that?:rolleyes2 Maybe Necron DOEs have a significant purpose explained in the game...and I havent found it yet......:eep:
If he had a purpose or motive beyond being a surprising, symbolic final boss, then there would be something in the game somewhere to indicate that. Not vague theories made up by people with too much time on their hands.
Hmmmmmm....maybe.....SO....is Necron worthy of the title of final boss for final fantasy 9?:D
Yes. He has a neat name (in both the Japanese and English versions of the game his name represents the theme of death and darkness and what-not), neat attacks (a celestial explosion of doom and a flashy status-inducing spell), and a neat appearance.
Yeah....he rocks! I love his attacks but he's SO hard!!!!!
actually, there is a point to him, as explained in the first part of this guide: http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/f...sy_ix_plot.txt
Here it is in full:
He's the God of Terra and Gaia. And i love this Amano peice of him
http://home.westman.wave.ca/~bahamut...ges/necron.jpg
I can't possibly read all that so I'll just quote this here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromus_X
I didn't mind Necron being the final boss. The ending movie is a sweet-wrap up of the game rather Necron or Elmo is the last battle you fight, so what's the deal.
Wow you're really knowledgeable about this game aren't you jammi567?
Actually, it's not me. i forgot to credit it to: Glenn Morrow/Squall of SeeD
So it doesn't matter how detailed or lengthly Squall of SeeD's essays are, they aren't canon. I just don't understand what's so hard to accept about Necron being a homage, considering that the rest of the game is so chock full of nostalgia and references. This isn't FFVII. This isn't FFVIII. This is FFIX. FFIX is easy to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromus_X
Squall of SeeD's hogwash has no place in any respectable discussion. It's the very kind of "convoluted and complex but ultimately non-canon" crap that Zexy mentioned.
Not that Zexy is completely right, either. Necron does have a motive and a purpose, which is easy to see if you merely pay attention to his lines immediately preceding the final battle: When the Crystal first gave way to life in the universe, he was charged with watching over all of existence until it sent him a sign that it was ready to be ended. Kuja's destructive acts were severe enough that he interpreted them as his cue to return everything to nothingness, but Zidane and company were able to convince him that the will of the living was still going strong.
So the use of numerous quotes and screenshots from the game doesn't count then? So the fact that he made a theory that actually made sense, and one that doesn't make it sound like that Necron was put in simply as a homage to the previous final fantasy's, doesn't count then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryűkishi
Quote:
Originally Posted by jammi567
SoS's theories may be well thought out but that doesn't automatically make him correct all the time. It may be nice and logical and lots of hooha, but what Square put in the game for the player and what the player makes from the game are different sometimes.
All I'm sayin' is, if we ran around giving credit to every long ass theory that had lots of thought put into it as accurate, we'd have Ultimecia being Kuja by now.
My only real thoughts on Necron (or the Darkness of Eternity. I always liked his original name better) is that his appearance at the end of the game makes sense to the theme of the game, rather than it's story.
That and it allowed the developers to throw in a killer Final Boss design rather than ending the game with boring old Trance Kuja
I couldn't link to the theory to see if this guys theory is similiar to what I'm going to say so sorry if I'm repeating anything...:cry:
I don't remember the game ever giving him any motive outside of his speech when he first appears but I could have sworn he's basically hinted to at the villiage of the Summoners (forgive me, it's been ages since I played this game) If you read the writing on the wall, they tell a story about the summoners using the great crystal to summon in their experiments, and they brought forth a terrible evil that threated to destroy the world. They ended up using the great crystal to seal him within it, and they broke the crystal into four pieces so there would be no chance of his return.
That's why I thought Necron appears at the end cause Kuja restored the crystal and then destroyed it after he was defeated. I could be wrong though:rolleyes2
Necron is the god of both worlds who craeted life! :)
But surely the theory that fills in the most plot holes without thinking of too many other questions is the best one?Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarWeaverQuote:
Originally Posted by jammi567
SoS's theories may be well thought out but that doesn't automatically make him correct all the time. It may be nice and logical and lots of hooha, but what Square put in the game for the player and what the player makes from the game are different sometimes.
and i only put the full text of it there, so that if the link didn't work, like what happened above, then people know what the hell we're talking about.
Who on the what, now? I really need to play this game again. :(Quote:
If you read the writing on the wall, they tell a story about the summoners using the great crystal to summon in their experiments, and they brought forth a terrible evil that threated to destroy the world. They ended up using the great crystal to seal him within it, and they broke the crystal into four pieces so there would be no chance of his return.
The problem is that, despite how well it may work, there's no way of knowing if it is right. It's like Lunar said- what Square put in the game for the player and what the player makes from the game are different sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by jammi567
So basically, there's never going to be any point of this debate, because it's all going to be wrong, unless Square say anything else on the subject, which is unlikely.
No, you just can't present it as gospel truth.
I like your theory, Ryűkishi. Seems very plausible.
And oh, the "HE CAME OUT OF NOWHERE!!!" is only true when you really don't feel about thinkign for a while.
For me, he could be two things:
-The counterpart of life, ready to end existance when he was signed to do so. Like Ryűkishi said.
-The Spiritual Core of the Iifa Tree. This was hinted by Garland.
"All you saw was the psychical form of the tree" or something among those lines. We beat Soul Cage, the psychical form of the Iifa Tree. Garland's words hint at another form of Iifa, and Necron seems very plausbile for that, as he kinda shares some things with Garland. When Kuja killed Zidane and Co with Ultimate Ultima, they were sent to the Iifa Tree for their souls to be sorted, and so they came face to face with Necron.
Both seem pretty good theories for me. Iifa theory especially conects to the story.
And, let's face it: Did we really want it to end with an unimpressive-looking boss like Trance Kuja? He was cool and all, but no Final Boss. And letting him transform againwould kill it. Necron has all the looks and power that a Final Boss needs. Who cares for his story connection? (A lot of people, clearly.)
And his music rocks => Instant win. The end. :D
I think that they are talking about Alexander, not Necron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
And IF Necron is a god or a cosmic being, that means that Zidane and the others are gods, because they deffeated him.
The theory that i had posted above was posted in this thread, and no-one made a fuss about it: http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=91359
*sighs*Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley Schovitz
I wish necron had actually looked like that in the game instead of a mutated blue lobster man. He looks so much more imposing in that drawing. Same thing goes for amano's drawing of Garland.
He seems pretty random to me though. I mean sure, he's an homage and he states his purpose to zidane...but it's just so bloody random. And he stole yoda's quote about "fear leads to hate, hate leads to suffering" or whatever. That pretty much destroys any chance of my taking him seriously. As for functioning as a boss, he's a pretty good one and will bitch-slap you in a hurry if you were too lazy to learn all your abilities.
Kishi sounds right to me. It makes sense, especially his line when you kill him.
How does one become a god by merely making one cringe from battle? They didn't truly defeat Necron, he basically just got beat up to the point where he realized living things wanted to keep living, so he decided to just fade into the background for another million years or so till he received another sign that life was ready to end.Quote:
And IF Necron is a god or a cosmic being, that means that Zidane and the others are gods, because they deffeated him.
Really though defeating a god doesn't make you one, a god is an omnipotent being who is immortal in the sense of time. Where as Zidance and company will all be dead in the next hundred years, let alone if some big nasty monster comes out and just eats one of them. Hardly deities if you ask me.
Yeah, they don't deffeated him. Just because he blew up, doesn't mean that he is dead. :rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut2000X
Zidane and the others deffeated him. That means that Zidane and the others are gods, OR he isn't a god. I belive in the latter.
Zidane and the others cannot defeat something that's so strong that it can end existence only tidus can
Since when has blowing up mean something is dead. Especially with an omnipotent super being who is the embodiment of death itself? Hell if ANY explosin resulted in death in the FF universe FFIV is a goner. I mean god knows how he survived a several mile fall AND an explosin. Point being, Necron's last words are very ominous and don't outright mean he's dead.
As for the whole Zidane and co. being gods; Necron's god-hood is all a matter of opinion I suppose as there's no real set way to determine what is and isn't a god. I more so like to think of Necron as a force of nature that is god-like in the fact that unlike regular forces of nature it is self-aware of it's surroundings and possesses some sort of a physical form, though I wouldn't be surprized to think in the realms that Necron is exsist beyond a physical limitations since after all he basically is death itself. But regardless of whether Necron is a god or not, defeating a god does not make ones self a god. If the christian God where to come down to Earth in some sort of physical form and I fought him and defeated him, I'ld still die when someone shot me with a gun through my head. Or got a life threatening injury or disease of some sorts. And I'm still not outside the realms of time and age. Just because I can defeat what we call a god doesn't mean I automatically assume the role of a deity, ascend into the heavens, gain immortality, and counsciousness far beyond that or any mortals comprehension. In fact I'm just a regular Joe on the street like everyone else. Same for Zidane and them. They beat a god/god-like being yet they are just regurlar people. No sort of super wisdom bestowed on them. No powers to control the forces of nature and matter. Heck not even immortality, unless I missed it I do believe in fact (SPOILER)Vivi one of the supposed "gods" now dies in the end. Though I could of somehow just missed him amoung all the other little buggers he spawned. But my interpretation of the end was that Vivi died by the end.
I think I'll stop for now as that was quite a bit to type and think of. If I continue I'll probably repeat myself and end up with a few yo'momma lines by the end when I've run dry on material. >.>
Never thought of THAT before.....:mad: :eep: :p :D :love:
Doesnt sound like a god to me, gods have a tendancy to create things and like to be worshipped, not return things to a zero world (i.e. a void, like space).Quote:
Necron: You stand before the final dimension, and I am the
darkness of eternity...
Zidane: Wh-Who are you!?
Necron: All life bears death from birth. Life fears death, but
lives only to die. It starts with anxiety. Anxiety becomes fear. Fear
leads to anger...anger leads to hate...hate leads to suffering... The only
cure for this fear is total destruction. Kuja was a victim of his own
fear. He concluded he could only save himself by destroying the origin
of all things-the crystal.
Zidane: What the heck are you talking about? Why are you telling me
this?
Necron: ...Now, the theory is undeniable. Kuja's action proves it.
All things live to perish. At last, life has uncovered this truth. Now,
it is time to end this world.
Zidane: Wh-What do you mean by that!?
Necron: I exist for one purpose... To return everything back to
the zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life. In
a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world that all
life desires.
Once beaten, Necron says:
So he wasnt killed cuz he's immortal. I had heard speculation once before that garland actually created necron, but i dont see how garland would be able to make something immortal.Quote:
Why defy your fate? Is the will to live that powerful...?
This is not the end.
I am eternal...
...as long as their is life and death...
I never realized Necron sounded just like Yoda.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRonin
XD that's what one of my friends, who's a Star Wars fanatic, said when he was me fighting Necron one day. I never realised it up until he pointed it out. And that was like my 5th time through him too. Geez I must just be slow or something. >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Timerk
The fact is that Necron was deffeated. He would not blew up himself, without any reason. Zidane and the others made him blow up, because they deffeated him. If he is THAT poweful, like some people are saying, he would not be deffeated by Zidane and the others. He would just use his full power to kill them instantlly. But he didn't do it, because he is not THAT powerful. He is not a god.
To say the truth, i belive in the theory of Squall of Seed, that Necron is the core of the Iifa Tree, created by Garland.
Of course he didn't do that, because if he did then the game would of ended right then and there with white engulfing the screen (maybe black) and the words 'Game Over' as everyone died. It's a game they can't ever one shot the heros to death no matter how powerful they are. It makes for a bad ending and selling of merchandise. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
This is an out-of-game explanation. But what is the in-game explanation for Necron's deffeat? The explanations are: a) He is a god that was deffeated by beings more powerful than him(that means, other gods). b) He is not a god and was deffeated by mortal beings that have more power than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut2000XOf course he didn't do that, because if he did then the game would of ended right then and there with white engulfing the screen (maybe black) and the words 'Game Over' as everyone died. It's a game they can't ever one shot the heros to death no matter how powerful they are. It makes for a bad ending and selling of merchandise. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
I really don't belive that Zidane and the others are gods, so, i choose B.
Since when do you have to be a god to defeat one? (Though I'm not stating Necron is a god, more of a generic question here outside FFIX. Just wanted to clear it up before people ripped me a new one saying I switched points all of a sudden. >.>) Isn't it possible that you can defeat a god without being one yourself. FF's are always about the underdogs coming out against the ultimate evil. You should watch Eden's Bowy sometime, it's all about god killers and gods. It's basically this entire debate only in anime form. Though in the end a (semi) regular person defeats a god just through sheer will of wishing to defeat the tyrant being, yet is nothing more then Zidane and company. Just a skilled warrior who challenged deities.
Since when do we need in-game explanations for everything in an FF? If your going to be so picky about one incident towards the end, then you might as well begin at the start and work out all the logical flaws the game has. In the end it's a game so real explanations arn't always needed, nor used since they would detract from the game. Like how Kuja waited till he was defeated to use Ultima, or how he waited politely for the party to beat Deathguise then let you run off and do whatever, come back, and then fight him rather then just destroying the crystal and ending his mission right then and there. There's so many logical flaws that you shouldn't honestly get angry about one when there's so many more to take it's place when you've debated over how to explain it. In the end it's a game and so not everything is explained. Look at GoGo from FFV and VI, he's just GoGo, simple enough, nothing more, nothing less. Just something thrown into the game to add to it rather then have it explained.Quote:
But what is the in-game explanation for Necron's deffeat?
I will probalbly start taking The Crystal more seriously when they learn that Defeat and Defeated has only one F not two.
But anyway my views are that he is not a God. He is more powerful than a regular human being but not a God. To me he is just an entity that has no real form but he can use his power to create a physical form to bestow a portion of his powers to for a limited time. Otherwise if he had of used his full power then he could have just sent Zidane and the crew straight to the Ozone and said "Oh look I guess they weren't strong enough after all." But that is just my opinion so I don't care if people don't think that. Also if it is a little difficult to understand then sorry but it was kinda difficult to put into words.
lmao, you people are slow. I noticed it the first time i played and i just started laughing at the guy. All this creepy background noise of wailing souls or whatever, and then he pulls out Yoda's lines. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut2000XXD that's what one of my friends, who's a Star Wars fanatic, said when he was me fighting Necron one day. I never realised it up until he pointed it out. And that was like my 5th time through him too. Geez I must just be slow or something. >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Timerk
I agree. He isnt a god, he's just a powerful being, and i like your idea of him just creating a physical body. It makes sense, because when you defeat him he implodes but he says he wont die, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by f f freak
And all this "a regular guy can/cant kill a god" talk...it reminds me of Hercules. I cant recall if that guy actually killed any gods or not, but i know he beat up on alot of other mythical baddies that posed gods some problems. Now you could say that doesnt work, cuz hercules had superhuman strength....but aren't zidane and co. about the same? Lookit all they defeated.
You know, i think Square just threw necron in at the end to confuse people and make them have silly debates like this for years to come.
Personally I like an explanation that I believe Sephiroth1999AD came up with. That throughout the game a big theme was villians turning good. Pretty much every enemy you fought throughout the game turned good sooner or later or at least had thier good moments at the end, even Kuja was like that. But they needed a true type of final villian, one who wasn't the redeemable kind. Necron as has already been established wasn't like a person; he basically is death itself. So what better way to end the game, then rather then fighting the villian who ends up becoming good and atoning for thier sins, then by throwing in the force of death as the ultimate evil to overcome.
The thread he said all that in should still be around somewhere. Though he did put it in a much better sounding way then I did, and had it make better sense. >.>
I'm sorry for not knowing how to speak english very well, because i'm not american. What you will do now, shoot me?Quote:
Originally Posted by f f freak
And SoS theory make much more sense than anything that you guys are talking.
Really!!?? Neither am I. I'm EnglishQuote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
If you want sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
WOW! GREAT difference between them! Congratulations for talking a different language that is very similar to your original one! :rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by f f freak
What the hell are you talking about. Talking a language that is very similat to my original language. French and German aren't that similar to English.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Necron couldnt have been created by Garland, simply because garland doesnt have the ability to create anythinig immortal. He has to steal souls through the Iifa tree and is struggling just to keep his planet alive. So how could he create such a strong entity like Necron? Besides, necron is in a completely different dimension than Gaia, Memoria, or Crystal World.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalI'm sorry for not knowing how to speak english very well, because i'm not american. What you will do now, shoot me?Quote:
Originally Posted by f f freak
And SoS theory make much more sense than anything that you guys are talking.
Ah, i understand now. But just because you know how to talk a different language better than someone else, you don't need to tease this person.Quote:
Originally Posted by f f freak
And like i said before, SoS theory make much more sense than anything that you guys are saying.
He is not immortal. Zeromus said something very similar to what Necron said, and he died(and is still dead).Quote:
Necron couldnt have been created by Garland, simply because garland doesnt have the ability to create anythinig immortal. He has to steal souls through the Iifa tree and is struggling just to keep his planet alive. So how could he create such a strong entity like Necron? Besides, necron is in a completely different dimension than Gaia, Memoria, or Crystal World.
And after Kuja killed the party, their souls go to "Necron's dimension".
Yeah I still don't understand what the hell you're talking about. Care to indulge me?
And SoS's theory makes next to no sense. Countless people have said that Garland can not make somehting immortal. Otherwise he would have just made himself immortal and gone about his work.
I will just say, that if you think that you can laugh of me, just because i forgot to put "f" in a word... You are sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by f f freak
Again. He is not immortal. Zeromus said something very similar to what Necron said, and he died(and is still dead).Quote:
And SoS's theory makes next to no sense. Countless people have said that Garland can not make somehting immortal. Otherwise he would have just made himself immortal and gone about his work.
Hellooo? Necron's last words wereQuote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
How does that suggest that he is not immortal? I'm pretty damn sure life and death are going to continue. Necron just got his ass handed to him and retreated.Quote:
This is not the end.
I am eternal...
...as long as there is life and death...
Okay what the hell are you smoking. All I said was you put two F's in a word when you only needed one. I never said. "Ha ha ha ROFL LMAO you put 2 F's when you only needed 1 Ha ha ha!!!" Then you went into a rant about not being american. Then I said I'm English not American. Then you said about me speaking a language that is similar to my own language. Oh yes French and German are exactly the same. And apparently I was teasing you for trying to help you. God you need to get a life and stop making things into some big drama.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
I'll throw my two cents in here. Necron, and actually most of the talk that surrounds a lot of the aspects of the worlds themselves (Terra, Gaia) all make me think back to the Latin they are based off of-which leads me directly into saying that I think Necron is ripped STRAIGHT from the themes of Greco-Roman heroic stories. For his role, Necron plays the gods that believe they have created a flawed creation, and for the part of our heroes, they play the representatives of that creation to prove that it is not flawed, that it deserves to continue. The gods, in their hubris, decide things for the creation, so it all leads to a head, in which the heroes-mortals, all-fell the gods. This leads to a realization by the gods that their creation, right NOW, is perfect, because there can be no other explanation for how mortals struck the gods and battled them to a standstill.
That's purely conjecture, mind you, and I don't care about all you little prancy 'this is a canon only discussion' types. I'm willing to buy it was just an homage to previous final bosses, sure. Course, if the glove fits, I don't see why there can't be multiple explanations for something that wasn't explained at length.
So that would explain why Necron wants to return everything to a zero world of no life or fear. Only thing is...he says he exists for the sole purpose of returning things to a void, so i dont see him saying "wow, these people were great at first but now they suck" or whatever else. Meh. *shrugs* It's still a nice reasoning as to why he wants to destroy the crystal though.Quote:
Originally Posted by LazarCotoron
And Zeromus last words are ""I will not perish as long as there is evil in the hearts of people." But he died anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRoninHellooo? Necron's last words wereQuote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
How does that suggest that he is not immortal? I'm pretty damn sure life and death are going to continue. Necron just got his ass handed to him and retreated.Quote:
This is not the end.
I am eternal...
...as long as there is life and death...
And i cannot understand how you guys can think that someone blowing up, is a retreat.
He didnt blow up, he imploded. It was like a black hole, not a fantastical explosion of fireworks and dynamite.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalAnd Zeromus last words are ""I will not perish as long as there is evil in the hearts of people." But he died anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRoninHellooo? Necron's last words wereQuote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
How does that suggest that he is not immortal? I'm pretty damn sure life and death are going to continue. Necron just got his ass handed to him and retreated.Quote:
This is not the end.
I am eternal...
...as long as there is life and death...
And i cannot understand how you guys can think that someone blowing up, is a retreat.
And if you'll recall, he introduces himself to Zidane as "the darkness of eternity", so i would kind of assume that if one is a trait and/or component of eternity, they are eternal as well.
Are you challenging my geek credentials, good sir :mad:.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRonin
Yes i am :pQuote:
Originally Posted by TimerkAre you challenging my geek credentials, good sir :mad:.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRonin
Yeah, but why he would implode, if he was just retreating? He couldn't just... Go away? This is what don't make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRoninHe didnt blow up, he imploded. It was like a black hole, not a fantastical explosion of fireworks and dynamite.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalAnd Zeromus last words are ""I will not perish as long as there is evil in the hearts of people." But he died anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRoninHellooo? Necron's last words wereQuote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
How does that suggest that he is not immortal? I'm pretty damn sure life and death are going to continue. Necron just got his ass handed to him and retreated.Quote:
This is not the end.
I am eternal...
...as long as there is life and death...
And i cannot understand how you guys can think that someone blowing up, is a retreat.
And if you'll recall, he introduces himself to Zidane as "the darkness of eternity", so i would kind of assume that if one is a trait and/or component of eternity, they are eternal as well.
And what i'm saying is that i belive in SoS theory. You guys are stating your opinions, and they are good, but SoS stated his opinion with many quotes and images of the game. I think that what he said and show to us, make much more sense than what you and the others are saying.
Don't make me beat you to death with my Babylon 5 DVD's :tonberry:.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRoninYes i am :pQuote:
Originally Posted by TimerkAre you challenging my geek credentials, good sir :mad:.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRonin
<.<Quote:
Originally Posted by TimerkDon't make me beat you to death with my Babylon 5 DVD's :tonberry:.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRoninYes i am :pQuote:
Originally Posted by TimerkAre you challenging my geek credentials, good sir :mad:.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRonin
>.>
*concedes*
I think Necron was a pretty good idea for a boss, but there just should have been more mentioning of him during the course of the game, or at least hits of his existence. The same goes for the crystal. I feel that they both seem to be randomely thrown in there.
Then again, it may very well be that Square was trying something new this time around and actually wanted us to feel as if these two things just popped out of nowhere. I'm undecided as to whether or not it was pulled off well, though.
I was more concerned about his blatently obvious Yoda rip-off.;)
this has been done so many times before.
anyway.
he has a point and a purpose.
just think about it for a second. first, he uses kujas desire to die as a reason to end existence which adds something new to the bad things kuja had done.
also, kuja saves them after the fight with necron.
i could say more but basically. if you take necron away, it just doesn't work. they'd need to seriously alter the story to make it work.
I think it beats Garland coming back and transforming into Chaos ala FFI.
but then, i'm sure that bosses are allowed to boast about being immortal.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRonin
No way! Although simple, I thought that was a good plot twist.Quote:
Originally Posted by LazarCotoron
Heh.....
i dont think either of these are bad and it is quite unfair comparing an "OMG yay! a time loop! garlands back!" and a suprising final boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth AnarcusNo way! Although simple, I thought that was a good plot twist.Quote:
Originally Posted by LazarCotoron
necron is immortal. he wasn't killed by the party. i doubt he was even defeated. he just realized it wasn't his time to end everything yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by jammi567but then, i'm sure that bosses are allowed to boast about being immortal.Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRonin
cant be bothered to explain in more detail but unlike zeromus in FF4, this "I am eternal" thing is true.
And your proof is...
why dont you prove that they actually killed necron?
i cant really be bothered right now. i've discussed this so many times. perhaps someone who has the spare time could explain.
but in short.
believe it or dont.Quote:
This is not the end.
I am eternal...
...as long as there is life and death...
Thats the same bloody thing i've been saying all along >_< The Crystal apparently had quite a problem with it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf
necron exploding and imploding and just dissapearing, is quite misleading but i believe necron only actually appeared when kuja destroyed the crystal.
necron wasn't just sitting there waiting for everyone to lose the will to live. he appeared when he was needed and dissapeared when he was no longer needed and he may yet return when it is time for him to reduce everything to the zero world.
I like that idea.
kuja didn't distroy the crystal. if he did, then there wouldn't be a proper ending.Quote:
Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf
The problem with your theory, is that Kuja didn't destroy the Crystal. He used Ultima against your party, not against the Crystal.Quote:
Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf
And like i said, if Necron was just retreating, he would just dissapear or go away. He would not explode/implode without any reason. The only evidence that you have, that Necron didn't die, is a quote from him. A quote that is very like what Zeromus said, but we know that Zeromus is already dead, so, why Necron cannot be dead too?
We have just a quote from him, saying that he is immortal. And we have a little video/cutscene showing his dead. What is more valid as an evidence?
And tell me something, why does necron have to be dead just cuz zeromus is? If you hadnt noticed, Necron is not Zeromus. Quit acting like he is. And how do you know he didnt die? He imploded, his physical body collapsed in on itself. Just because his body went away does not mean he was killed. He's "the darkness of eternity", he's an entity, and most likely does not need a physical body to survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalThe problem with your theory, is that Kuja didn't destroy the Crystal. He used Ultima against your party, not against the Crystal.Quote:
Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf
And like i said, if Necron was just retreating, he would just dissapear or go away. He would not explode/implode without any reason. The only evidence that you have, that Necron didn't die, is a quote from him. A quote that is very like what Zeromus said, but we know that Zeromus is already dead, so, why Necron cannot be dead too?
We have just a quote from him, saying that he is immortal. And we have a little video/cutscene showing his dead. What is more valid as an evidence?
And tell me something. If Necron wanted to kill the party, and he is THAT powerful, why he didn't use all this power to kill them? And if he just retreated in the end, why he choosed to blow up himself, instead of just go away?Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRoninAnd tell me something, why does necron have to be dead just cuz zeromus is? If you hadnt noticed, Necron is not Zeromus. Quit acting like he is. And how do you know he didnt die? He imploded, his physical body collapsed in on itself. Just because his body went away does not mean he was killed. He's "the darkness of eternity", he's an entity, and most likely does not need a physical body to survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalThe problem with your theory, is that Kuja didn't destroy the Crystal. He used Ultima against your party, not against the Crystal.Quote:
Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf
And like i said, if Necron was just retreating, he would just dissapear or go away. He would not explode/implode without any reason. The only evidence that you have, that Necron didn't die, is a quote from him. A quote that is very like what Zeromus said, but we know that Zeromus is already dead, so, why Necron cannot be dead too?
We have just a quote from him, saying that he is immortal. And we have a little video/cutscene showing his dead. What is more valid as an evidence?
Even if he didn't die, he was defeated. A being that can destroy the entire universe, was deffeated by a group of mortalls?!
And Garland said that what we see is only the physical part of the Iifa Tree, meaning that exist a spiritual part of it too. After Kuja kill the party in Crystal World they go to the spiritual world and find Necron there. And if you see Necron's face, you will note that his face is like the faces in the wall of that place where you fight Ark. And these faces, were created by Terrans.
He wanted to test their will to live, and in the end he got his ass beat because their will was not to enter his zero world, but to live.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
So it's hard to believe that IX's "group of mortals" beat necron knowing how they defeated Garland and Kuja and the guardian forces? Uh huh...
I cant really tell what necron's face looks like because its all nice and pixelated and blurry cuz of the bad graphics. And why dont you take alook at Amano's depiction of Necron. You'll see necron looks NOTHING like the terran faces.
And i am tired of debating with you, because you've seen plenty of valid points that discredit your silly little opinion, and yet you still want to cling to it. So whatever, i'll let you have your opinion, mine has been stated plenty of times.
As I already said. It would ruin the game. And Necron isn't able to destroy the universe, oh no he just has to break the crystal to do that. And yeesh if your complaining about his power, then pray tell why Kuja didn't Ultima your party at the start, since it seems to instantly one shot them. Or why he didn't kill them when he was blowing up Terra? When you can explain these in your "in-game logics" in a way that makes sense, then maybe I'll consider Necron's power being an issue too. Point being, there's other people who could of instantly killed them too and the reason they didn't is...IT'S A GAME! That is reason enough. There a fine line between logical yet neccesarry implementation, and downright absurd things to consider. What your thinking about his power to instantly kill is that very absurd thing to think and complain about.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
The difference being that Zemus was an ordinary man. Well Lunarian whatever. >.> Who had quite a bit of power. Then with all of his power and hate he managed to hold onto life despite him dying. He came back and with all his power exploited it to transform into Zeromus. But in the end he's still a mortal. He was born of women from a womb. And lived, breathed, and ate like the rest of us. Necron on the other hand was the force of Death itself. He was not alive, nor dead. He is just him. He is immortal because of such, after all he HAS to be immortal (in the sense of time that is) because he has lived since the birth of life as he even said. So firstly he couldn't of been created by Garland as not only is he in an entirely another dimension, he also has been around a LOT longer then Terra and Garland ever were. And has been stated, Garland could barely keep himself and a planet alive, let alone a being that was death in and of itself.Quote:
A quote that is very like what Zeromus said, but we know that Zeromus is already dead, so, why Necron cannot be dead too?
So really comparing the 2 is hardly worthwhile as one is a mortal being that is essentially a human. The other an immortal reprensentation force of nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulRonin
Thank you! Someone intelligent agrees with me. And why am i still replying in this thread anyway? Haha, i'm such a dork. I wonder if any other final bosses created this much of a debate. O_O Although really it shouldnt be that much of a debate, except that we have a few stubborn people who like to think that Zeromus = Necron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut2000X
Necron is much more like Neo Exdeath than Zeromus. They share much more than he and Zeromus. Proof are their goals ('Zero World' and 'All that shall be returned to nothing') and their attacks ('Grand Cross').
Difference than again was that Neo Exdeath (probably) was the Void taking on a psychical form to take on the heroes and zero everything, but only appeared as a living (???) being in the end, after absorbing Exdeath. Necron has (if we can believe his words) always been there.
Still, these two share a lot more than Zeromus and Necron.
Oh, and on the subject of why didn't Necron kill them if he's so powerful, well... Where did that Outer-space background of Zeromus come from? And how did Cecil and the others breath on a moon? Why didn't Kuja kill them all with Ultima from the start? Why didn't Necron neutron ring them 3 times in the beginning and be done with it?
Simple answer: we still need to PLAY the game, which is still a GAME, not get our asses kicked from the start. There's no fun in that... That's logical, I think.
i'll agree with that.
its a game.
i wasn't too sure about kuja destroying the crystal and yeah. it makes sense that he doesn't but necron is an entity without the need of a physical body.
necron is not evil. he has no alleigance. its only his job that matters and it would be pretty stupid, considering what his purpose is, if he could actually be killed.
i take it you understand that kujas ultima killed the party (please say you know this. i'd hate to explain this too.) which is why they appeared at the hill of despair. if you dont believe this...
in short: beat trance kuja. notice how the bodies of your characters dissapear as if they've evapourated and been completely destroyed. and then they appear at a completely different place that is no where near the crystal world. it would be harder to prove that they are alive than it is to prove their dead.
anyway. it was a sort of a between life and death battle of will.
necron says this exactly.
"Why defy your fate?"
"Is the will to live that powerful...?"
which sounds a lot like him realizing something.
after he realizes that he is not needed, he dissapears but of course, he will return.
For the purposes of being able to quote, and see the contex of where quotes come from, i'm posting the whole of the dialogue between Necron and Zidane, before and after the battle:
[Kuja uses his Ultima Trance and knocks everyone out. The party wakes
up on some unfamiliar terrain.]
Zidane: "U-Ugh... What happened to the crystal...? ...Where is this?"
Voice: "You stand before the final dimension, and I am the darkness
of eternity..."
Zidane: "Wh-Who are you!?"
Voice: "All life bears death from birth. Life fears death, but lives
only to die. It starts with anxiety. Anxiety becomes fear. Fear
leads to anger...anger leads to hate...hate leads to suffering...
The only cure for this fear is total destruction. Kuja was a
victim of his own fear. He concluded he could only save himself
by destroying the origin of all things--the crystal."
Zidane: "What the heck are you talking about? Why are you telling me
all this?"
Voice: "...Now, the theory is undeniable. Kuja's actions prove it. All
things live to perish. At last, life has uncovered this truth.
Now, it is time to end this world."
Zidane: "Wh-What do you mean by that?"
Voice: "I exist for one purpose... To return everything back to the
zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life.
In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world
that all life desires."
Zidane: "Who the hell do you think you are!? You're not ending anything!
Never, not as long as we have the will to live!"
Voice: "Foolish creature... Your fears have already deluded you. One
day, you will choose destruction over existence, as Kuja did.
When he sought to destroy the crystal, the purpose of life ended.
Now, come... Enter the zero world that you desire."
Zidane: "No! We'll destroy you and prove you wrong! And through our
memories, future generations will see that we can overcome any
fear! ...We can't give up now. ...We have to fight together.
Even if we lose, it doesn't matter... Our memories will live
on inside others. So, even if we are born to die, I'm not
afraid. I'm gonna live!"
(....)(pick party members + short dialogue between them)
Zidane: "We've come too far to lose now. Let's just wrap this up
and go home...all of us."
Freya: "You don't stand a chance against us! We shall prevail!"
[The battle with the entity (Necron), and they lay a humanity-sized
smackdown on it.]
Necron: "Why defy your fate?"
[The party members teleport out of the Hill of Despair.]
Necron: "Is the will to live that powerful...?"
[Necron starts to go kaboom, crumbling.]
Necron: "This is not the end. I am eternal... ...as long as there is
life and death..."
Everything i'm saying is just a theory. I'm not saying that is the absolute truth. But what you guys are saying is a theory too, so, stop talking like it's a fact. Your opinions aren't facts.
Now, talking about the theories, we have to see which of them have more evidences that suport them.
Theory 1 - Necron is the energy source of the Iifa Tree:
"Part 1: Necron
I believe Necron, the final opponent fought in Final Fantasy IX, is the
central function of the Iifa Tree, the mechanism that interefered with the Cycle of Souls. To put it another way, Necron is the true form of the Iifa Tree, that aspect of it that lies beyond the material plane and intereferes with the cycle of Gaia's souls on the spiritual plane.
For evidence of this, we must first look to Garland's observations and
conclusions concerning life:
(In Pandemonium on Terra.)
"But think for a moment... Isn't life death itself? It must kill other
life-forms to survive..."
"Sometimes it even kills those with whom is shares blood..."
"To live is to give life meaning, yet one must take others' lives to
survive..."
"A mature civilization becomes aware of this paradox..."
"Terra's souls will sleep until they forget such nonsense. They will begin a new life in a new dimension."
"It's a world in which life and death become one..."
"That is the dimension in which we are meant to live, as beings that
transcend life and death!"
We find very similar conclusions stated by Necron:
(Above the Hill of Despair.)
"All life bears death from birth."
"Life fears death, but lives only to die."
"It starts with anxiety."
"Anxiety becomes fear."
"Fear leads to anger... anger leads to hate... hate leads to suffering..."
"The only cure for this fear is total destruction."
"...Now, the theory is undeniable."
"Kuja's action proves it. All things live to perish."
"At last, life has uncovered this truth. Now, it is time to end this world."
...
"I exist for one purpose..."
"To return everything back to the zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life."
"In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world that all life
desires."
With this in mind, recall that Garland created the Iifa Tree. That it would be aware of Garland's (him being its maker and having assigned it its function) beliefs and could have sought to analyze them as a result -- with the actions of another of Garland's creations, Kuja, as the basis of the analyzation -- is something to be considered.
Something else to consider is that Garland states that the Iifa Tree's true form was not the Tree itself, that being only its material form:
Garland
"We must sort the souls."
"I want to disrupt Gaia's cycle and drain its souls, filling the void with
the souls of Terra."
"To speed the cycle of souls is to speed the work as a whole. Thus, war..."
"And in time... Gaia's souls are gone, and Gaia becomes Terra."
Garland
"You saw it with your own eyes. You saw the Iifa Tree and the Mist it emits."
"The role of the Iifa Tree is that of Soul Divider. The Mist you see
comprises the stagnant souls of Gaia..."
Zidane
"Oh yeah? But we stopped the Mist! So much for that!"
Garland
"ALL YOU SAW WAS THE BACK OF THE TREE..."
"Even now, the Iifa Tree blocks the flow of Gaia's souls, while it lets
those of Terra flow freely."
"Come and see for yourself. See the true form of this planet."
Zidane
"What is this?"
Garland
"Think of it as an observatory. A place to measure the radiance of Gaia and Terra."
Zidane
"What are you talking about? And what is this weird light?"
Garland
"That is the center of the planet. The end and the beginning of the cycle of souls."
"The light remains Gaia's, for now, but when the blue changes to crimson, all will belong to Terra, and its restoration will be complete."
"THAT IS WHY I WRAPPED UP THE LIGHT IN THE IIFA TREE, TO PREVENT THE CYCLE OF THE JUDGEMENT OF SOULS ON GAIA FROM INSIDE THE PLANET."
"SUCH IS THE IIFA TREE'S TRUE PURPOSE, ITS TRUE FORM. ALL YOU SAW WAS ITS MATERIAL FORM."
"The flow of Gaia's souls cannot be changed simply by stopping the disposal of Mist."
(Capitalized for emphasis.)
This would mean that the mechanism which interrupts the Cycle of Souls was something not on the physical plane. With this in mind, recall that when Kuja is defeated, he says that he if he is going to die, he isn't going alone, meaning he intended to kill Zidane and the others with his final attack. He then proceeds to blast them with an Ultima Spell, their bodies being engulfed in flames and vanishing:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ed/Screwed.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ihilation2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ihilation5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ihilation7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ihilation8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ihilation9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...hilation10.jpg
Now keep in mind further that after the screen fades out, when it fades back in, we find Zidane and the others laying in an area that ISN'T the area where Kuja was fought, and which is called the "Hill of Despair" according to the Menu Screen:
(Where Kuja was fought.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...inalBattle.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...nalBattle2.jpg
(The Hill of Despair.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...lofDespair.jpg
("Hill of Despair" on the Menu Screen.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...lofDespair.jpg
In addition to this, the moans of tormented souls can be heard in the
background.
In other words, the implication is that when Zidane and the others were hit by Kuja's Spell, they were KILLED, and then came face-to-face with the Iifa Tree's true form on the spirtual plane, it attempting to dismiss them from Gaia as it had done to all the souls up to this point, as was the purpose Garland said the Tree had been given.
Also consider that after the defeat of Necron, the gateway to Memoria explodes and the Iifa Tree goes into a spasm, flailing its vines and roots about, then dying soon after. We can be certain that the Tree died, as Mikoto can be seen briefly during the ending walking across a vine of the Tree, it no longer violent and thrashing. For that matter, had the Tree not been undone, we would be left to wonder why Gaia's assimilation by Terra was never completed, seeing as how Kuja said that the assimilation was nigh at hand before the final battle with him.
Necron being the core mechanism of the Tree would account for the Tree's demise, whereas Necron not being so would leave us to question why the Tree died for seemingly no reason, first going into violent spasms immediately after Necron was defeated, then being dead shortly thereafter.
Something else possibly worth consideration is what Garland says concerning the radiance of Gaia and Terra:
Garland
"That is the center of the planet. The end and the beginning of the cycle of
souls."
"The light remains Gaia's, for now, but when the blue changes to crimson, all
will belong to Terra, and its restoration will be complete."
The radiance of Gaia is blue, whereas the radiance of Terra is red. Necron is blue, yet when casting certain Spells, changes its color to red.
Yet another point of consideration is the similarity between the faces seen in Oeilvert and Necron's face:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...erranFaces.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ecronsFace.jpg
This suggests that Terran technology was employed in Necron's creation.
One final point of consideration is that the Iifa Tree theme and the Final Battle theme -- consisting of the music heard on the Hill of Despair and during the battle with Necron -- follow the same theme, with the two pieces being variations of this theme. A similar example would be the reuse of the Prelude theme throughout the Final Fantasy series, the same theme always being used though in a new variation.
In summary, with Garland and Necron expressing similar views on life, and Necron's own words showing that it was testing a theory involving that view of life before concluding that the view was accurate (which would make sense for it to do if Garland were its creator), we can possibly conclude the same point of origin for this belief. Further, with Garland suggesting that the true form of the Iifa Tree did not lie on the physical plane, and with Zidane and the others being killed in battle by Kuja only to find themselves confronted by a creature spouting views similar to Garland's and changing into the two colors of the Planets that the Iifa Tree served as a gateway between (blue for Gaia and red for Terra), as well as Necron sharing the same theme as the Iifa Tree, we can assume a possible connection to the Iifa Tree on Necron's part.
The death of the Tree following Necron's defeat allows us to confirm this."
Theory 2 - Necron is a cosmic being that appear out of nowhere:
He said that he is the darkness of eternity and is immortal.
SoS theory make MUCH more sense and have MUCH more evidences that suport it, than your silly theory.
Both of them are valid theories, but until now, SoS one is more valid, because of the number of evidences presented.
I believed the Necron = Iifa Tree, but I have ONE problem with it. Mainly: Its desire to return everything to zero, instead of sorting out the souls like Garland wanted the Iifa Tree to do. Why would the tree suddenly change its mind? Why would it even want to face Zidane and co instead of just sorting out their souls?
It was created to sort out souls. Why would it suddenly go a Neo Exdeath? :confused:
Because it was a being which could think on it's own, just like Kuja and Zidane. And it followed Kuja around, and watched Kujas actions, and so decided that that's what all of humanity wanted.
This is in SoS FFIX FAQQuote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo
"*Point: Garland says he wanted to place all creatures into a world in whichlife was combined with death, while Necron spoke of returning all life into aworld without life. That wouldn't suggest similar goals.
*Response: Once again, not necessarily. This is what Garland says concerning his ultimate goal for living beings:
"To live is to give life meaning, yet one must take others' lives to
survive..."
"A mature civilization becomes aware of this paradox..."
"Terra's souls will sleep until they forget such nonsense. They will begin a new life in a new dimension."
"It's a world in which life and death become one..."
"That is the dimension in which we are meant to live, as beings that
transcend life and death!"
This is what Necron says concerning its intentions:
"I exist for one purpose..."
"To return everything back to the zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life."
"In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world that all life
desires."
Necron speaks of placing life in a dimension of no life, with no Crystal to give life. Does that necessarily mean that all things are non-existant? Would souls cease to exist simply because they weren't inhabiting living vessels?
Or would they be without life, and, thus, without death, as well? Would they not have transcended life and death, as Garland sought to accomplish?
Granted, this is only speculation, but to transcend life and death would mean to be beyond both, and from my own interpretation, for there to be no life would also mean there would be no death. To exist without either, but beyond their reach.
However, I believe that the true nature of this matter is this:
Recall that Final Fantasy IX is a game that pays tribute to past Final Fantasy games and that its final boss battle is already paying heavy tribute to Final Fantasy IV's final battle. It's also paying tribue to V's, however, in that the concept of the Darkness of Eternity (also Necron's Japanese name) is akin to the concept of the Void from Final Fantasy V's final battle with Neo Ex-Death, and the manner in which they introduce themselves is also very similar (as will be pointed out further in the next section).
Supposing that Necron essentially became the same as the Void of Final Fantasy V -- keeping in mind that the Void itself was a manufactured entity only 1,000 years old and not simply a being that always was -- Necron, aware of Garland's view of life (that it exists hand-in-hand with death and that life is death itself as life must cause death in order to endure) due to Garland being his maker, chose to test the validity of Garland's hypothesis, and so it chose to observe Kuja, another of Garland's creations, and the one that Garland had intended to work in rapport with the Tree, Kuja inciting war and death, rendering souls free of their bodies, with the Iifa Tree then intercepting those souls and preventing them from being added back to Gaia's collective.
After witnessing Kuja's self-destructive actions that took place on a cosmic scale, Necron would have concluded that Garland's theory was correct ("...Now, the theory is undeniable." "Kuja's action proves it. All things live to perish.") and then took the purpose for which Garland had created it further than was ever intended, choosing to expand its range of negation beyond just Gaia's souls and to the universe itself, deciding to -- like the Void -- end all existance, quite possibly including its own, the same as the Void had intended. If ever a being that existed for the purpose that the Iifa Tree had been given were to expand its range of function further, this would be the logical form of expansion: Extending its sights beyond Gaia and to the universe at-large. This is even arguably the only logical evolution that Necron could deterine for the purpose for which it had been created.
*Applauds* Very good defence for your believes about this subject. Makes sence and could be true, but ultimately, only the creators (may) know what Necron actually is. Still, I take of my hat, for this is well explained.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalThis is in SoS FFIX FAQQuote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo
"*Point: Garland says he wanted to place all creatures into a world in whichlife was combined with death, while Necron spoke of returning all life into aworld without life. That wouldn't suggest similar goals.
*Response: Once again, not necessarily. This is what Garland says concerning his ultimate goal for living beings:
"To live is to give life meaning, yet one must take others' lives to
survive..."
"A mature civilization becomes aware of this paradox..."
"Terra's souls will sleep until they forget such nonsense. They will begin a new life in a new dimension."
"It's a world in which life and death become one..."
"That is the dimension in which we are meant to live, as beings that
transcend life and death!"
This is what Necron says concerning its intentions:
"I exist for one purpose..."
"To return everything back to the zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life."
"In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world that all life
desires."
Necron speaks of placing life in a dimension of no life, with no Crystal to give life. Does that necessarily mean that all things are non-existant? Would souls cease to exist simply because they weren't inhabiting living vessels?
Or would they be without life, and, thus, without death, as well? Would they not have transcended life and death, as Garland sought to accomplish?
Granted, this is only speculation, but to transcend life and death would mean to be beyond both, and from my own interpretation, for there to be no life would also mean there would be no death. To exist without either, but beyond their reach.
However, I believe that the true nature of this matter is this:
Recall that Final Fantasy IX is a game that pays tribute to past Final Fantasy games and that its final boss battle is already paying heavy tribute to Final Fantasy IV's final battle. It's also paying tribue to V's, however, in that the concept of the Darkness of Eternity (also Necron's Japanese name) is akin to the concept of the Void from Final Fantasy V's final battle with Neo Ex-Death, and the manner in which they introduce themselves is also very similar (as will be pointed out further in the next section).
Supposing that Necron essentially became the same as the Void of Final Fantasy V -- keeping in mind that the Void itself was a manufactured entity only 1,000 years old and not simply a being that always was -- Necron, aware of Garland's view of life (that it exists hand-in-hand with death and that life is death itself as life must cause death in order to endure) due to Garland being his maker, chose to test the validity of Garland's hypothesis, and so it chose to observe Kuja, another of Garland's creations, and the one that Garland had intended to work in rapport with the Tree, Kuja inciting war and death, rendering souls free of their bodies, with the Iifa Tree then intercepting those souls and preventing them from being added back to Gaia's collective.
After witnessing Kuja's self-destructive actions that took place on a cosmic scale, Necron would have concluded that Garland's theory was correct ("...Now, the theory is undeniable." "Kuja's action proves it. All things live to perish.") and then took the purpose for which Garland had created it further than was ever intended, choosing to expand its range of negation beyond just Gaia's souls and to the universe itself, deciding to -- like the Void -- end all existance, quite possibly including its own, the same as the Void had intended. If ever a being that existed for the purpose that the Iifa Tree had been given were to expand its range of function further, this would be the logical form of expansion: Extending its sights beyond Gaia and to the universe at-large. This is even arguably the only logical evolution that Necron could deterine for the purpose for which it had been created.
Well, there still can be other options. Personally, I think the creators wanted a more 'developped' Neo Exdeath. Neo just appears, has 1 line and then you destroy him (or loose). Never was it actually explained why he wanted to zero everything. With theories such as these, Necron can indeed be understood, and with these theories, it also becomes clear that Necron INDEED has a storyline connection and is not just a powerful being coming out of nowhere thrown in the game for the sake of being in the game.
Yeah, this theory is very good. Hell, the entire FAQ is good and make sense. Squall of SeeD really deserve applause for his work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo*Applauds* Very good defence for your believes about this subject. Makes sence and could be true, but ultimately, only the creators (may) know what Necron actually is. Still, I take of my hat, for this is well explained.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalThis is in SoS FFIX FAQQuote:
Originally Posted by Elpizo
"*Point: Garland says he wanted to place all creatures into a world in whichlife was combined with death, while Necron spoke of returning all life into aworld without life. That wouldn't suggest similar goals.
*Response: Once again, not necessarily. This is what Garland says concerning his ultimate goal for living beings:
"To live is to give life meaning, yet one must take others' lives to
survive..."
"A mature civilization becomes aware of this paradox..."
"Terra's souls will sleep until they forget such nonsense. They will begin a new life in a new dimension."
"It's a world in which life and death become one..."
"That is the dimension in which we are meant to live, as beings that
transcend life and death!"
This is what Necron says concerning its intentions:
"I exist for one purpose..."
"To return everything back to the zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life."
"In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world that all life
desires."
Necron speaks of placing life in a dimension of no life, with no Crystal to give life. Does that necessarily mean that all things are non-existant? Would souls cease to exist simply because they weren't inhabiting living vessels?
Or would they be without life, and, thus, without death, as well? Would they not have transcended life and death, as Garland sought to accomplish?
Granted, this is only speculation, but to transcend life and death would mean to be beyond both, and from my own interpretation, for there to be no life would also mean there would be no death. To exist without either, but beyond their reach.
However, I believe that the true nature of this matter is this:
Recall that Final Fantasy IX is a game that pays tribute to past Final Fantasy games and that its final boss battle is already paying heavy tribute to Final Fantasy IV's final battle. It's also paying tribue to V's, however, in that the concept of the Darkness of Eternity (also Necron's Japanese name) is akin to the concept of the Void from Final Fantasy V's final battle with Neo Ex-Death, and the manner in which they introduce themselves is also very similar (as will be pointed out further in the next section).
Supposing that Necron essentially became the same as the Void of Final Fantasy V -- keeping in mind that the Void itself was a manufactured entity only 1,000 years old and not simply a being that always was -- Necron, aware of Garland's view of life (that it exists hand-in-hand with death and that life is death itself as life must cause death in order to endure) due to Garland being his maker, chose to test the validity of Garland's hypothesis, and so it chose to observe Kuja, another of Garland's creations, and the one that Garland had intended to work in rapport with the Tree, Kuja inciting war and death, rendering souls free of their bodies, with the Iifa Tree then intercepting those souls and preventing them from being added back to Gaia's collective.
After witnessing Kuja's self-destructive actions that took place on a cosmic scale, Necron would have concluded that Garland's theory was correct ("...Now, the theory is undeniable." "Kuja's action proves it. All things live to perish.") and then took the purpose for which Garland had created it further than was ever intended, choosing to expand its range of negation beyond just Gaia's souls and to the universe itself, deciding to -- like the Void -- end all existance, quite possibly including its own, the same as the Void had intended. If ever a being that existed for the purpose that the Iifa Tree had been given were to expand its range of function further, this would be the logical form of expansion: Extending its sights beyond Gaia and to the universe at-large. This is even arguably the only logical evolution that Necron could deterine for the purpose for which it had been created.
Well, there still can be other options. Personally, I think the creators wanted a more 'developped' Neo Exdeath. Neo just appears, has 1 line and then you destroy him (or loose). Never was it actually explained why he wanted to zero everything. With theories such as these, Necron can indeed be understood, and with these theories, it also becomes clear that Necron INDEED has a storyline connection and is not just a powerful being coming out of nowhere thrown in the game for the sake of being in the game.
But unfortunately, some people in this forum think that their opinion is a fact, and when presented with evidences that prove the contrary, they just ignore the evidences.
Of course. people are like that.
okay i read the first 2 and a half pages of this thread and decided to put in my own bit.
first lets deal with the whole Necron and Zeromus thing. i personally dont think necron died. and zeromus is a perfect example to prove this is possible! Zemus died... then guess what? his spirit (aka zeromus) lived on (admittedly with the help of being consumed by hatred but nevertheless). if zemus can die but live on then why can necron not?
as to his purpose? it seems pretty obvious to me from just reading the game text. necron wants to return all stuff to void but he does not think it is time to do so. Kuja tries to destroy the Crystal. necron thinks "hrmm some dude just tried to destroy the Crystal" and cos hes probably a bit dim "hrmm does this mean that life has decided it doesnt want to go on?"
this also makes me think that necron isnt actually evil. i hate it when people say death is evil. its NECESSARY. some CAUSES of death are evil but DEATH ITSELF is not. if you think death is evil then does that mean your all in favour of a grossly over populated world?
necron is the embodiment of death. he thought that because some poofy ponce tried to destroy the crystal then all of life clearly desires extinction. made sense to him. in fact it even sounds like he was doin it because he thought everyone wanted it
"In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world that all life desires."
enforcing my idea that he isnt evil. he did it because he thought existence wanted destruction... he thought he was doing a service to the universe :P
so zidane and co kicked royal but, necron realised that "hrmm okay maybe life doesnt want out" and he probably imploded in a sulk cos it wasnt his time yet.
ps. i didnt mean it kuja, love ya really :P
If you listened to what he said right before the battle, he is Death itself. He is only beat by your will to live. Besides he's easy to beat. Just equip a million status guard abilities, rapidly cast Curaga, Full-Life, Shock or Stock Break, Blizzaga, and Blizzaga Sword. He goes down easily..
I really dought That Garland had the power to Create Necron.
And let's say that he really was created by Garland, what possible reason would he have for lying ot you at that point by saying he is eternal? When you can come up with a logical answer to that, then we'll talk SoS's theory.
SoS Theory:Quote:
Originally Posted by corncracker
*Point: Necron says "I am eternal" when defeated. Would this not immediately disprove Necron as being the central mechanism of the Iifa Tree, seeing as how Garland created it?
*Response: Not necessarily. Necron says "I am eternal" upon being defeated, yes, but that does not necessarily mean that Necron was saying "I have always been and always will be." "Eternal" is ambiguous. It CAN mean "Always has been and always will be," but it can also mean "Having no end." In other words, Necron might have been saying "I will never perish." This certainly isn't a foreign declaration to villains upon their demise. For that matter, Zeromus, the final opponent of Final Fantasy IV, and the incarnation of Zemus' hatred, made a similar declaration at the moment of his own death:
(Zeromus' final words.)
Zeromus: I will not...perish...so long as evil...dwells in the hearts...of
mankind. G...gh... GRRRAAGH!
(Necron's final words.)
"This is not the end."
"I am eternal..."
"...as long as there is life and death..."
However, there's little question as to whether or not Zeromus was simply making a boast before his death, something which he did not anticipate.
Something else to keep in mind is that Final Fantasy IX was a game designed to pay tribute to past Final Fantasy games. The ending boss battles of Final Fantasy IV and IX are very similar in that in both the party is wiped out, only to be brought back from defeat by other party members lending their strength. Also in both cases, the defeated final foe declares their self-proclaimed eternal nature, despite all indication and the context of the situation suggesting it to not be the case.
For that matter, it should be noted that Soulcage, the Mist distributing
function of the Iifa Tree, also boasted that it would not be defeated by
Zidane and the others, despite it being destroyed when it actually fought them:
"I have seen the end of my thousand-year life, and it is not now."
'You cannot stop me."
"It is futile even to try."
While one might argue that it's a different situation because Soulcage's boast came before its battle with its killers, there's the obvious fact that such statements as "I am immortal! This cannot BE!" come from defeated villains on a regular basis, whether it be in stories outside of the Final Fantasy series or within it. A good example of such lines being used within the Final Fantasy series is Final Fantasy: Tactics, which uses such lines no less than four times during the course of the game:
(Note: These are all the dying words of the characters in question.)
Queklain:"I'm immortal...how can I be losing....? It's impossible. I can't... die...until he resurrects..."
Velius: "Whooooah!! They're just humans....!"
Elidibs: "This can't be happening... I'm not supposed to lose..."
Balk: "I'm...dying? I thought I'd risen over 'death'..."
It is never actually disproven that Zeromus is immortal considering after the party beat him the game ends so I don't class this as valid evidence. I could also say the exact same about Necron.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal who is endlessly posting SOS's theory for us
Zemus did infact Die, Zeroumus is the incarnation of Hatred. You can't kill hatred. Zeromus appeared more as a form of Metaphor, saying as long as hatred exists, there will be another like me, or something to that effect.
And that is not a good enough reason Crystal. Thats stretching the meaning of words. Plus, how can Garland Create something Eternal? Also, why would he make it so powerful if it was only meant to sort the souls? It is a spiritual entity, so your party couldn't fight it under normal conditions, so making it powerful is completely pointless. Also, Kuja kills the party, if he isn't so omnipotent and was destroyed, how did he bring them back to life? Garland obviously doesn't have methods of doing that, otherwise he could have found a way to use NEcron to bring himself back, which he couldn't.
Also, the chose of the World eternal. If SoS was right, then why didn't just say he was immortal? Or everlasting? OR something else like that? It is doughtful that square would put in such a misleading phrase if they meant NEcron to be the Iifa tree. Also, FF has a strange habit of giving you an explanation for anything important by the end. It explains whats going on, the reasons behind everything and their motives, yet there is absolutely nothing but speculation from a fan to connect this. Two speaches shared many similaraties, so what? IT doesn't mean that they were at all connected. It sounds more likely that if Necron were able to watch Kuja, he could also watch Garland. Garlands speach seemed to echo the disire for humans to live withough fear and all that, and NEcron, not being human and obviously not fully understanding human though, he echoed Garlands speach to describe his goal.
HE didn't kill the party because that wasn't his goal. Lets say he's garlands creation and he actually intended to kill the party. He has control over souls and sorting them, he should have been able to easily eradicate the party with this ability, as they were nothing but souls. So even if he isn't all powerful, his power over souls could have crushed them. However, if his intent wasn't to kill them, but to test their will to live, as seems to be the generally excepted view, then Necron being the Iifa tree makes not sense. Either way, Eternal Being or Iifa tree, it would have easily destroyed the party, meaning it is far more logical that Eternal Being, is right.
Hrm....well, I think they could have done something better than Necron, but it makes sense to me.
You can belive in whatever you want. But i cannot belive in a theory that have only ONE line to prove it. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by corncracker
In my mind, this:
"In summary, with Garland and Necron expressing similar views on life, and Necron's own words showing that it was testing a theory involving that view of life before concluding that the view was accurate (which would make sense for it to do if Garland were its creator), we can possibly conclude the same point of origin for this belief. Further, with Garland suggesting that the true form of the Iifa Tree did not lie on the physical plane, and with Zidane and the others being killed in battle by Kuja only to find themselves confronted by a creature spouting views similar to Garland's and changing into the two colors of the Planets that the Iifa Tree served as a gateway between (blue for Gaia and red for Terra), as well as Necron sharing the same theme as the Iifa Tree, we can assume a possible connection to the Iifa Tree on Necron's part.
The death of the Tree following Necron's defeat allows us to confirm this."
Make much more sense than this:
"Necron is a cosmic being, because he said that he is eternal"
If i want to prove that you are wrong, i just have to find an explanation of why he said that he is eternal.
But if you want to prove that SoS is wrong, you have to explain, why Necron's face is similar to the faces in Oilvert, why he changed into the two colors of the planets that the Iifa Tree served as a gateway between, why he have views about life and death similar to Garland's, why the Iifa Tree died seconds or minutes after Necron's explosion, why he exploded instead of just going away, etc.
Proving that your theory is wrong, is much more easy than proving that SoS theory is wrong. And that means that SoS theory is probably, the most correct.
But in the end, all theories are valid, because they are just this, theories.
The colors dont' mean much. IF he is in fact the cosmic being of life and death, changing between those two colors isn't unlikely. I already explained the views thing in my previous post. As for the Iifa tree dying, Kuja was in control of it at the end instead of Garland. The same thing could be said to happen because of Kuja's death. The one who controled it died, so the tree went with it.
As for the last part, just faded away would look stupid. FF has a thing about finishing flashy, so of course they will end FF IX in a flashy manner. Simpley going away isn't at all flashy or cool, dissapearing in a self implosion, however, is. The only thing I can't explain right now are the faces, but I should be nearing that point in fF IX again soon, and may or may not be able to think of something for that soon.
Well, even if Garland did not created Necron, they still could have worked together. That way Garland did not create something eternal and also that way Necron and Garland can still be related. Still, if Necron is not the spiritual core of the Iifa Tree, please explain why the Tree died just a few minutes after Necron's disappearance.
By the way, Kuja was created by Garland too, and Kuja was as powerful as to be able to teleport Zidane and co out of death. Garland possesed quite some knowledge and power, he even could destroy the most powerful Eidolon with ease, why wouldn't he be able to create something up to par with Necron? Garland even created the Iifa Tree so he could interrupt with the Soul Cycle of planets. That's quite some powerful stuff he can pull off, you know. Making an 'eternal' being doesn't seem like something he would never be able to do.
And the death speech of Necron doesn't really prove or disprove much. It's already pointed out many other badguys say similiar things. Why it may very well be that necron still existed even when the Iifa Tree died, it can also every well be that the Tree died because Necron had been defeated. It's impossible to tell, unless the game's creators tell us.
I guess people just really want Necron to be a very random Final Boss instead of indeed being in touch with the story more than people think...
He wasn't random. And there would be no reason for him to help Garland unless Garland Created him.
Kuja was only as strong as he was because he absorbed the souls, that had nothing to do with Garland. Garland never made anything stronger than he was, unless you want to Count NEcron.
Its just none of the Necron=Iifa tree theories make much sense.
Also, Disrupting souls is quite the feet, but not even close to being an eternal being.
Edit: Okay, I looked back over NEcrons speach and this is what I found.
[qoute=Neoseeker FF IX Script] Voice: "I exist for one purpose... To return everything back to the
zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life.
In a world of nothing, fear does not exist. This is the world
that all life desires." [/qoute]
http://neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=127002
If Garland Made him, that would not be his one purpose. His One Purpose would be to sort the souls, which has no real connection to Returning the world to nothing, or giving life what they desire. If SoS's theory is true, the only explanation for this is HE flat out lied, which there would be no point in doing.
but if he had been following Kuja, watching him, thinking him as an example, then when kuja tried to distroy everything around him, necron thought that's what all life wanted.
Yeah, pretty much. Just pay attention to his babblings right before you fight him and he will explain himself very clearly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryűkishi