Character classes?

Well it seems the concept of character classes in Final fantasy 12 has been abolished. In other words the "red wizard" finally became a useless class(HA! Take that you over cocky saddle of seaweed magic!)

But this is no good, not for me anyway. What Ive been trying to say is this Sucks! What have they done look iam not a purest but I like my shields err I mean traveling cohorts with a sword and shield in hand, dumb, stupid and buffed up on defense and attack, I like my wizards and spell casters smart, to be purely spell casting characters who are generally superior to the fighters. This is the arrangement made for every RPG since I remember them, now all of sudden my Basch can cut his way through the field with a halberd and cast Curaja! Not to mention Blizzaga! (Yes I was shocked and horrified)

Whats the point to all this?, What class/Role do you have for your characters?

Mine:

Vaan: Red Wizard/fighter
Basch: fighter
Penelo: Ninja
Ashe: White Mage
Balthier: Gunner?
Fran: Black/time wizard

Check out some of my replies in this thread:

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=98290

I hear ya man, its a cryin shame that actual classes are being done away with because people cant have seem to handle the idea of being slightly limited.

I like when a character is my caster and she/he isnt going to weild the beast axe, or my tank being my tank and not being able to cast high end magic or what not...it defines a class and doesnt water the game down or cheapen it. I like actual set classes and options within, but not that everyone can be clones.

You're acting like this is news.

I just got FFXII for Christmas. It's a bit confusing and unorganized now, but I think I'll get the hang of it eventually. I am mistress of the junction system after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ouch!

You're acting like this is news.

---

I love a pointless addition to a thread like this, bravo

well the individual characters still are greater in certain attributes like basch having a higher standerd attack still though most people tend to automaticly give their characters specific jobs

Bach fighter
vaan- fighter/weak white mage
Fran- ranged attacked/ mage of sorts
i dont have a job for the others because i never use them

I'm not a fan of individuality. Why? I don't like to use up MP before I get to the bosses, and that's the only way spellcasters are going to help (other than being a diversion, like my MP-less WM Galuf earlier today). So until I get to the boss, I simply attack or use other free moves.

Besides, if you have a team of specialists, what happens if that specialist dies? That's why all of my characters are equal, just in case someone kicks the bucket, I can replace him/her with another character. The closest thing I have to job classes is that back in the Ozmone Plain, Fran and Baltheir were my only means of attacking the Zu. So I added gun liscences to Ashe, creating Team Ashe and Team Basch, which remains to this very day. Mind you, I have already beaten the game, so now everyone can use just about anything, but all characters are the same to me.

Vaan-Dragoon
Basch-Knight
Ashe-Paladin
Fran-Sage
Balthier-Black Wizard
Penelo-White Wizard

Well, thats what I have, but I tink Vaan could be a Ninja, but he [strike]is[/strike] was a Dragoon for the Zodiac Spear. (Just so I could be motivated to get the Liscense early.

Besides, if you have a team of specialists, what happens if that specialist dies? That's why all of my characters are equal, just in case someone kicks the bucket, I can replace him/her with another character.

Wow...im sorry but this kind of statement blows my mind. Whatever happened to gamers that like a challenge?

I just find this kind of a statement to be a prime example of how gamers these days expect everything on a silver platter, and it totally takes away from what RPGs are meant to be.

What happens if you lose a specialist? Heh thats the name of the game dude...how many rpgs have you played? I been playing them for years and you have to learn how to adapt and how to manage a party. Protection to the healer is number 1, i mean wow...i just cant get over the mentality i see now a days when it comes to stuff like this.

Im not trying to insult or bash here...but i just cant wrap my mind around this mentality. Its like, what is the fun in that?

I dont know, i guess im out of words to explain my feelings for how an actual party in an RPG is supposed to be and the importance of it, and why it makes the genre what it is today.

main
Vaan - double handed sword so im guessing a knight
Ashe - sword and shield so im guessing a knight again
balthier - guns so sniper

all attackers with very little magic use but together it works.
ashe - has white magic mostly and some arcane. very few techniques
balthier - has time magic and some arcane also. masterd techniques
vaan - has black and green magic. can equip anything

my reserve characters
Fran - archer has the strongest weapon out of all my characters right now.
Basch - axeman
pannelo - double handed sword.

Fran - has every magic spell
basche - very little magic but can use every technique
pannelo - can equip anything

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Setharion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ouch!

You're acting like this is news.

---

I love a pointless addition to a thread like this, bravo

---

Then perhaps you shouldn't have responded in kind.

Pointless arguments aside, I'm a fan of the class system. I enjoy having specialized characters, so, to an extent, I did the same in FFXII. Certainly all my characters have similar capabilities, but their roles are rather specific.

I've developed Fran and Penelo as support roles. They sport gambits for healing spells as well as status ailment cures. I rely on them to keep my party alive, for the most part, though the others can do just fine on their own, if need be. Both are equipped with mystic gear sets.

Basch, Balthier, Ashe, and Vaan are all damage dealers, though they serve different purposes. Both Balthier and Vaan are set up to debuff enemies with both magic and technicks. Basch is an all out damage dealer, set up with the Zodiac Spear for heavy damage. Balthier is a ranged attacker, sporting light armor. Basch, Ashe, and Vaan all use heavy armor. Ashe is a tank, through and through. Sword and shield combo and the likes. Currently Vaan uses the same weapon set-up, though I plan to equip him with the Genji Gloves and the Masamune as soon as I obtain them.

Not the most specialized, but they certainly perform specified roles in the party. As it stands, I use Vaan, Basch, and Penelo in one party, and Ashe, Fran, and Balthier in another. I rarely mix the two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Setharion

Besides, if you have a team of specialists, what happens if that specialist dies? That's why all of my characters are equal, just in case someone kicks the bucket, I can replace him/her with another character.

Wow...im sorry but this kind of statement blows my mind. Whatever happened to gamers that like a challenge?

I just find this kind of a statement to be a prime example of how gamers these days expect everything on a silver platter, and it totally takes away from what RPGs are meant to be.

What happens if you lose a specialist? Heh thats the name of the game dude...how many rpgs have you played? I been playing them for years and you have to learn how to adapt and how to manage a party. Protection to the healer is number 1, i mean wow...i just cant get over the mentality i see now a days when it comes to stuff like this.

Im not trying to insult or bash here...but i just cant wrap my mind around this mentality. Its like, what is the fun in that?

I dont know, i guess im out of words to explain my feelings for how an actual party in an RPG is supposed to be and the importance of it, and why it makes the genre what it is today.

---

Ah, but doesn't having specialists make the game easier when you come across enemies with high physical or magical defenses? You just switch in whichever specialist is best suited for the task at hand. Besides, I'm not in it for the challenge so much as the chance to wander around in a new world and watch a cool story unfold. And isn't that really "what RPGs are meant to be"?

The name of the game is strategy, and my strategy is that everyone should be able to heal and everyone should be able to do damage. And if you that's a lame strategy you should know that I suck at strategy games, but still managed to beat FFT and FFTA.

Ah, but doesn't having specialists make the game easier when you come across enemies with high physical or magical defenses? You just switch in whichever specialist is best suited for the task at hand. Besides, I'm not in it for the challenge so much as the chance to wander around in a new world and watch a cool story unfold. And isn't that really "what RPGs are meant to be"?

The name of the game is strategy, and my strategy is that everyone should be able to heal and everyone should be able to do damage. And if you that's a lame strategy you should know that I suck at strategy games, but still managed to beat FFT and FFTA.

Well dude, i dont know what to tell you. I been gaming for 25+ years now and the idea behind RPGs is to have a team that helps each other in areas they themselves cant. Thats what MMORPGs are all about too, you have your healers, your tanks, your casters...all of them form a team with their own identities and characteristics to build a party and get rolling.

I grew up with earlier FFs that had no mercy...when you died, you died. You didnt get wiped then switch your other team in and run away...ive adapted to so many RPGs over the years that its a given to love and understand for me how having set classes and a diverse team that can support each other in different ways. This is the kind of stuff that devs cater too and imho makes it too easy.

I just assume any who love RPGs would not want their team to be clones, i dunno...i find it to be something that will ruin a game to be honest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Setharion

Besides, if you have a team of specialists, what happens if that specialist dies? That's why all of my characters are equal, just in case someone kicks the bucket, I can replace him/her with another character.

What happens if you lose a specialist? Heh thats the name of the game dude...how many rpgs have you played? I been playing them for years and you have to learn how to adapt and how to manage a party. Protection to the healer is number 1, i mean wow...i just cant get over the mentality i see now a days when it comes to stuff like this.

---

How exactly do you go about protecting the healer? Monsters are set on a Gambit system. Typically it is to kill the weakest character first, more often than not the healer is the weakest character. The only way to stop a Gambit, as far as I can tell, is to use the spell Decoy. Decoy doesn't always work, sometimes it misses, therefore making it pretty ineffectual in the run of things.

I don't use character classes. Some of my characters are more focused on certain aspects and skills, sure, but they generally run pretty equal to each other. It works for me.

P.S. Get off your high horse. Just because you've had a longer run with video games, does not mean you understand the meaning behind them any better than the rest of us do. And don't assume things.

How exactly do you go about protecting the healer? Monsters are set on a Gambit system. Typically it is to kill the weakest character first, more often than not the healer is the weakest character. The only way to stop a Gambit, as far as I can tell, is to use the spell Decoy. Decoy doesn't always work, sometimes it misses, therefore making it pretty ineffectual in the run of things.

I don't use character classes. Some of my characters are more focused on certain aspects and skills, sure, but they generally run pretty equal to each other. It works for me.

P.S. Get off your high horse. Just because you've had a longer run with video games, does not mean you understand the meaning behind them any better than the rest of us do. And don't assume things.

Im not on a high horse...i just been playing rpgs for years and would assume that most rpg fans realize the point in having casters be casters or fighters be fighters and respect the system thats been built.

Hey if thats how you guys want to play then so be it. I find it a sad day though when the traditional roots of RPGs are being ever so slowly wiped away and let everyone be everything in RPGs.

And how do you protect a healer? Well thats for someone to figure out and find their own methods...i play this game manually therefore i protect my healer just fine.

Listen though, im not here to fight or argue or get into a flame war. I have my opinion, you guys have yours.

And your point is well understood Setharion, as is everyones. The matter of the debate is simple you cant have a Role playing game (RPG) if you don't have role's to set each characters strengths and weaknesses. Just like in there own personality's they have pro's and con's so do there ability's shine or dim in battle. Each character once in a while needs his own time to shine, but it looks like basche can handle everything from here...

Besides whats the point of the license system then anyway if not to limit and control the way a characters ability's advance through the game then what. Iam in my mid 40's with my characters now and ive rounded up enough points to give them every license on the board thats a total of 15,000 points for the license's.

In other words magick (yes thats what we call it in FF12) has become a useless and pointless class system. Theres only the headstrong death magick and axe wielding barbarian/time wizard/white mage/black mage/green mage/sage/fighter/dragoon/sniper/archer/solid snake (:p) Basch....

My character setup

Vaan - Thief/Warrior with Greatsword
Ashe - Paladin with White Magic, Sword and Shield
Balthier - Thief with Poles
Basch - Warrior with Axes and Shield
Fran - Black Mage with Arcane Magic and Bows
Penelo - Summoner/White Mage with Time Magic, Green Magic, and Staves

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Diango12

And your point is well understood Setharion, as is everyones. The matter of the debate is simple you cant have a Role playing game (RPG) if you don't have role's to set each characters strengths and weaknesses. Just like in there own personality's they have pro's and con's so do there ability's shine or dim in battle. Each character once in a while needs his own time to shine, but it looks like basch can handle everything from here...

Now just like there are classes in RPG's so there is to in forums. For example there is the class of people who like to contribute to the threads and debates and keep a discussion healthy and alive, then there is the second class of people who like to whine, complain and generally spam a thread with "this is pointless" "stop talking about this" blah blah etc etc...

Besides whats the point of the license system then anyway if not to limit and control the way a characters ability's advance through the game then what. Iam in my mid 40's with my characters now and ive rounded up enough points to give them every license on the board thats a total of 15,000 points for the license's.

In other words magick (yes thats what we call it in FF12) has become a useless and pointless class system. Theres only the headstrong death magick and axe wielding barbarian/time wizard/white mage/black mage/green mage/sage/fighter/dragoon/sniper/archer/solid snake (:p) Basch....

---

lol that was funny about Basche, but i agree because its the same with me.

But its funny how people will try to convince us thats how RPGs are meant to be...bah, im tellin ya...the death to this genre is a slow one but its sure coming. Because eventually there will be no structrue to the roots, people just fluff it just because they dont want even a single hinderence. I dont get it to be honest, i just dont get it.

So you're supposed to have classes? Wow, all my life I've been completely wrong! I have been aiding in the slow decay of the RPG series!


That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I believe the point of RPGs is to reach your goal and NOT die, regardless of the path you choose. Either way, I don't have any classes. I find myself going through the game just fine. The fact that I recently realized that enemies respawn makes me happy. Now I can stay in a place and build up super chains.

So you're supposed to have classes? Wow, all my life I've been completely wrong! I have been aiding in the slow decay of the RPG series!


That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I believe the point of RPGs is to reach your goal and NOT die, regardless of the path you choose.

lol i honestly have no words for that.

Setharion, it’s rather pompous of you to assume that you better understand the genre than anyone else. Explaining that you’ve played RPGs for years adds nothing to your argument, except to give the impression that you’re stuck with the “I was here first,” mentality that somehow makes your opinion worth more than anyone else’s.

You call these changes the death of the genre; I call that a load of crap. Perhaps it’s the death of the restricted definition that you have in your head, but it seems to me that the genre is doing just fine expanding and evolving. As I stated earlier in the thread, these changes are nothing new—the genre has been headed in this direction for a decade now. One would think one would get used to the changes during such a long period of time.

You said “its funny how people will try to convince us thats how RPGs are meant to be…” I think it’s funny how you’re trying to convince others that the class system is the way RPGs are “meant to be.” Honestly, if everything had such a static and rigid definition, it would get boring after a while. RPGs without job classes are selling well, and that’s all any video game developer cares about—making money. If so many people thought that it was the bastardization of the genre, there’d be no market for such games, and it would be straight back to the good old days.

Don’t misunderstand my words, though. Personally, I much prefer the job class system. I enjoy the challenges it presents to the player, and the additional strategic elements created by assigning specific roles to different character. I’d much rather see things continue as they were. I am contented, though, by the fact that I can still assign specific roles if I so choose. Sure, character clones can be disappointing, but I’m not about to throw a hissy fit over it.

The way I see it, you’re just another guy who thinks you’re somehow better than anyone else because you’re an old school, hardcore gamer. Perhaps that’s not quite on the money, but that’s my guess. Either way, you can’t deny the condescending tone you’ve assumed in every post you’ve made. So yes sir, you are on your high horse, and I think it would be best if you come down, because I have a very hard time taking you seriously when you say things like “I have my opinion, you guys have yours,” when that’s obviously not the way you feel.

I don't really follow classes.

I never use Fran, Vaan, and Balthier anymore (I will later, but not at the moment...).

Basch is my melee person.
Ashe is a mix of melee and magic.
Penelo, having two Mist Charges and the highest original MP, is my magic person.

FFTA is a totally different story. I prefer classes there, although that backup set of skills is always nice, considering laws limit what a character can do sometimes.

Classes in RPGs have been a benchmark to the genre, so no, its not me saying how its meant to be, its the genre itself that should be enough to show the way it should be.

Classes are one of the major definements of RPGs , if you disagree then well, i just have nothing for that. /shrug

The way I see it, you’re just another guy who thinks you’re somehow better than anyone else because you’re an old school, hardcore gamer. Perhaps that’s not quite on the money, but that’s my guess. Either way, you can’t deny the condescending tone you’ve assumed in every post you’ve made. So yes sir, you are on your high horse, and I think it would be best if you come down, because I have a very hard time taking you seriously when you say things like “I have my opinion, you guys have yours,” when that’s obviously not the way you feel.

Listen bro, im not here thinking im better than anyone...over video games? Please, would be beyond weak.

Im just the type that holds tradition and likes to see the roots of something intact. My history of RPGs is just that ive been around with them since the start practically and the one common ground they all held onto was classes in which define the characters. How can anyone deny that? I mean look at the movies, take lord of the rings...you have your fighters, your quick ranged fighters, your mages etc...all of the stereotypes to the genre of the RPG realm are there. Its just what it was built on.

Im just saying i wish more people wouldnt look at classes as a limitation, but moreso look at it as its what RPGs stand for, thats all.

FFVII is regarded as one of the greatest RPG's every, and it doesn't have character classes.

/shrug

Some games are class heavy, and some are not. I look at is as a choice in game design, but I don't think rpg's have to have character classes, or that classes are 'the way it should be.'

:twocents:

I apologize, I shouldn't have responded in such a manner. I let my frustration get the better of me. I do understand where you're coming from, and I can agree with much of what you've said. I just think clinging to traditions is a losing battle. The world keeps changing, and it doesn't do much good to bemoan a loss that one can't do anything about. Video games are the same; the industry moves on, and anyone stuck in the past gets left in the dust.

I believe that insisting that classes are the (or at least a major) definitive part of the RPG genre isn't going to do anyone any good. Classes are definitely a major part of what makes older RPGs RPGs, but that doesn't seem to be a prerequesite these days. I wouldn't necessarily say that's a bad thing, but it does disappoint me. I missed out gaming almost entirely before about a year after the N64 came out, but when I get my hands on some of the games I've missed, I do realize that we've lost quite a bit over the years that we perhaps shouldn't have.

Exactly, and thats just all im saying...is that over time i see reasons as to why devs disclude certain aspects to the genre and its worrisome to me because, i just feel that the whole atmosphere of what RPGs stood for in all these years will eventually be dwindled down to nothing.

I just get worried that in years to come, RPGs will become a watered down action/adventure kind of genre with totally losing the RPGness that was once there.

I hope im wrong, but its just the trend i see going.