Lord of the Rings Question: Is Samwise Gamgee Gay?

Uhhh... this Topic is actually meant to be serious.

I was watching Lord of the Rings: Return of the King after I finished watching Mission Impossible 3 last night, and one thing I always hated about Sam Gamgee is the way he just slobbers and worships the ground Frodo walks on.

I really hate it :mad2:

My 2 favourite scenes in the Trilogy, indeed, in ANY FILM, EVER!, is:

1: When Gollum tricks Sam with the bread thingy, and Frodo tells Sam to go home and Sam just starts crying like a buffoon.

And...

2: When they are at Mount Doom and Gollum bashes Sam's thick skull with a rock.

I LOVED that! :hyper:

But I was thinking more on the books which I read again last year for the 100th time. Sam is a much more likeable character in the books and isn't all over Frodo like he is in the films. However, he does adore Frodo a little too much, so it got me wondering.

Is Samwise Gamgee gay?

Do you think that Sam's affections for Frodo were Professor J R R Tolkein's way of discussing homosexuality?

Because absolutely no other character comes close to the neediness and stalkerish tendencies of Samwise Gamgee in the trilogy, or in The Hobbit. No one! Sam is just so clingy. He kinda seems like a stereotype Gay character to me, much like Homosexual Victorians were portrayed in the 19th Century England (like Oscar Wilde for example. Oscar Wilde was all over his young lovers and very camp indeed)

So what do ya think?

No. At the end of the series he marries the girl from the birthday party he saw at the beginning of the series.

NO. :( Jesus I hate it when people say this, and they always do. Oscar Wilde, unlike John Ronald Reuld Tol-ki-en, was gay, if I recall correctly. So he'd have had more reason to portray his people (Dorian Gray etc etc etc) gay than otherwise.

Maybe it appears so in the movies, but I am entirely sure that's not how Tolkien wanted to represent it -- he had all this wonderful ideas for Sam and Rosie, and he even wrote snippets about their married life and their kids and stuff, and he wanted to tag it onto the end of RoTK, but his editors wouldn't let him. And if you read those snippets with Elanor and stuff, they're brilliant. ...he's very much in love with Rosie and his kids...!!!!!

I have to say, 'cause I've said it many times before, he does seem gay in the film. :p But like theundeadhero said, he gets married to, and talks a fair bit about, Rosie. Seems to love her very much, plus he has children. Therefore I'll assume he's not. :jess: Maybe in the film version, they were trying to show stereotyping guys who show their feelings as gay isn't accurate...weird conclusion. O.o'

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Originally Posted by theundeadhero

No. At the end of the series he marries the girl from the birthday party he saw at the beginning of the series.

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He could be bisexual.

Lets not forget that homosexuality was frowned upon and was an imprisonable offence in the late 19th/early 20th century. Maybe Tolkein was trying to play a cunning game against the authorities. (I might be wrong, but I think homosexual literature could get you in serious trouble even in the 1960's!)

Maybe he was showing Sam's homosexuality as much as he could, but then protected himself because by having Sam marry Rosie, he could say 'Sams' not gay, just an over-protective servant, and look! He gets married in the end!'

Bisexual perhaps?

I found the whole thing beautiful.
I mean, these days guys aren't "supposed to love another guy", and I hate that crap.
Sam loves Frodo, that's it; he loves him as a friend. :)

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

I found the whole thing beautiful.
I mean, these days guys aren't "supposed to love another guy", and I hate that crap.
Sam loves Frodo, that's it; he loves him as a friend. :)

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Sam doesn't love Pip or Merry as much. Or even Rosie for that matter. It's just Frodo, Frodo, Frodo.

And similarly, Frodo doesn't worship Sam as nearly as much Samn worships Frodo.

And, lest we forget, Pip and Merry are great friends with Frodo AND Sam.

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Originally Posted by Devil Man

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

I found the whole thing beautiful.
I mean, these days guys aren't "supposed to love another guy", and I hate that crap.
Sam loves Frodo, that's it; he loves him as a friend. :)

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Sam doesn't love Pip or Merry as much. Or even Rosie for that matter. It's just Frodo, Frodo, Frodo.

And similarly, Frodo doesn't worship Sam as nearly as much Samn worships Frodo.

And, lest we forget, Pip and Merry are great friends with Frodo AND Sam.

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Well, I guess Sam felt a great responsibility to protect Frodo, and he was probably more open with his feelings.
Also I think it was a bit exaggerated in the movies.

Besides, he can't be full-blown gay, simply because he marries Rosie.
Of course, he could be bisexual, but that doesn't change the fact he was in love with Rosie, so he most likely wouldn't be hitting on another person whatsoever, and certainly not a childhood friend in the middle of a vital mission. :)

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

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Originally Posted by Devil Man

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

I found the whole thing beautiful.
I mean, these days guys aren't "supposed to love another guy", and I hate that crap.
Sam loves Frodo, that's it; he loves him as a friend. :)

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Sam doesn't love Pip or Merry as much. Or even Rosie for that matter. It's just Frodo, Frodo, Frodo.

And similarly, Frodo doesn't worship Sam as nearly as much Samn worships Frodo.

And, lest we forget, Pip and Merry are great friends with Frodo AND Sam.

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Well, I guess Sam felt a great responsibility to protect Frodo, and he was probably more open with his feelings.
Also I think it was a bit exaggerated in the movies.

Besides, he can't be full-blown gay, simply because he marries Rosie.
Of course, he could be bisexual, but that doesn't change the fact he was in love with Rosie, so he most likely wouldn't hit on another person whatsoever, and certainly not a childhood friend in the middle of a vital mission. :)

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Some gay men do that just to cover up their gayness.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

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Originally Posted by Devil Man

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

I found the whole thing beautiful.
I mean, these days guys aren't "supposed to love another guy", and I hate that crap.
Sam loves Frodo, that's it; he loves him as a friend. :)

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Sam doesn't love Pip or Merry as much. Or even Rosie for that matter. It's just Frodo, Frodo, Frodo.

And similarly, Frodo doesn't worship Sam as nearly as much Samn worships Frodo.

And, lest we forget, Pip and Merry are great friends with Frodo AND Sam.

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Well, I guess Sam felt a great responsibility to protect Frodo, and he was probably more open with his feelings.
Also I think it was a bit exaggerated in the movies.

Besides, he can't be full-blown gay, simply because he marries Rosie.
Of course, he could be bisexual, but that doesn't change the fact he was in love with Rosie, so he most likely wouldn't hit on another person whatsoever, and certainly not a childhood friend in the middle of a vital mission. :)

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Some gay men do that just to cover up their gayness.

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Anyone in the entire Tolkien story who doesn't show signs of "straightness" could be homosexual.
For Tolkien fans, let's consider this: Fëanor had seven sons, and he only had one grandson (Celebrimbor, Curufin's son).
So, it's fully possible that at least one of his other sons was homosexual, because none of them had any children. :D

This thread makes me think of one of my favourite movie quotes of 2006. I'll just quote what Kevin Weisman says because what Randal says is quite explicit and would ruin it's magic if I censored it:

Hobbit Lover: "Hey *explicit*, Sam and Frodo aren't gay! They're hobbits!"

And for all of those that have seen this movie, I totally agree with Randal's argument. :p

:)

No, I don't think he is gay, and why would it matter anyways? It wouldn't change the story at all.

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Originally Posted by TrowaBartonIV ^_^

No, I don't think he is gay, and why would it matter anyways? It wouldn't change the story at all.

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Its nothing to do with the quality of the story, it's to do with whether Professor J R R Tolkein was subtly discussing homosexuality with his portrayal of Samwise Gamgee.

And it would matter, because that means that Lord of the Rings has even greater sub-texts then we initially realised.

I am going along with the theory that Samwise Gamgee is a confused bisexual who marries Rosie to cover up his feelings for Frodo and stop the whisperings in The Shire.

Ya.

You don't have to be gay to love a person of your own sex... Then everybody's gay.

I don't think Sam Gamgee is gay, just an emotional and likeable character

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Originally Posted by Breine

You don't have to be gay to love a person of your own sex... Then everybody's gay.

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It would be pretty cool if Tolkien defended homosexuality, though; this would make me respect him even more. :)

No, not gay. He just had a genuine love and affection for Frodo because they were such close friends and because Frodo treated him as an equal. If the love that Sam had for Frodo was not there, the movie would have ended far sooner than it did. The only reason the Fellowship succeeded is because Sam was there and his love existed.

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NO. Jesus I hate it when people say this, and they always do. Oscar Wilde, unlike John Ronald Reuld Tol-ki-en, was gay, if I recall correctly. So he'd have had more reason to portray his people (Dorian Gray etc etc etc) gay than otherwise.

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That could be up to some debate. Wilde had relations with, and was married to, a woman at one point in his life. Sure, his downfall was because of homosexual activities, but that does necessariliy make him straight out gay. Bisexual, maybe. Socratic was the term he himself used to describe his sexual orientation, however. Really, he just had a love for beauty. At least, that is the idea I got from his works.

I think people just are not used to seeing two men have an emotional connection like that, although I would say that Sam is portayed a bit more submissive than I would like in the movie. That said, it is his love for Frodo that saves the world, and what could be stronger than that?

Frodo's just his best friend that he has an undying loyalty too.

Look at it this way, Sam's all "Frodo, Frodo" until Frodo doesn't trust him because of Gollum then he's just "I'M ALL ALONE" in which he's apparently not all frodo'd up anymore.

You can't ungay that quickly, jeez. Plus he was after Rosie since the first one at the very begining.

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Originally Posted by Peter_20

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Originally Posted by Breine

You don't have to be gay to love a person of your own sex... Then everybody's gay.

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It would be pretty cool if Tolkien defended homosexuality, though; this would make me respect him even more. :)

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Yeah. But, who cares.. he's still one of the best writers this world has ever seen :)

devil man, it would seem you hate sam!!!
i love sam (not literally thanks) and thats harsh, why would he be gay?just because he stays with Frodo, like a loyal friend, hes never had any "hmmm, what a sexy beast" looks towards Frodo

Sam and Frodo represent friendship between classes of people during hard times, and the hope that spawns out of that friendship. Sam is initially a servant to Frodo, but becomes far more as the story progresses. His dedication to Frodo is one of love between friends. He will do anything to ensure that Frodo reaches his goal, partly because he is Frodo's friend and partly because he has hope that there is a life waiting for him back in the Shire.

Sam is so upset in the scene where Gollum tricks Frodo into believing Sam ate all of their rations because Gollum's success signifies multiple things. Among them is the fact that Frodo is so out of it due to his burden, he has forgotten who he can trust and who he should trust. It also breaks Sam off from his only connection to his home.

Nothing that takes place between the two characters signifies anything about an illicit relationship. The only relationship in the entire trilogy that comes close is the relationship between Eowyn and Aragorn, but even then Aragorn remains true to stupid, stupid, stupid Arwen. I hate Arwen so much.

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Originally Posted by Arkady

The only relationship in the entire trilogy that comes close is the relationship between Eowyn and Aragorn, but even then Aragorn remains true to stupid, stupid, stupid Arwen. I hate Arwen so much.

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Oooo? How come?

Do you hate Arwen in LotR book or do you hate the Liv Tyler Arwen of the films?

What be the reason for this grudge? :holmes:

The only gay pairing of LotR is GollumxThe Ring (the ring is male, naturally).

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Originally Posted by Devil Man

1: When Gollum tricks Sam with the bread thingy, and Frodo tells Sam to go home and Sam just starts crying like a buffoon.

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Yes, thank you, Peter Jackson for not staying true to the book and what is ultimately not a better decisi0on.

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Is Samwise Gamgee gay?

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Clearly not. He goes on to have alot and I mean ALOT of children with his wife, Mistress Rose.

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Do you think that Sam's affections for Frodo were Professor J R R Tolkein's way of discussing homosexuality?

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No, it's was Tolkien's way of representing the comradery of rank and suboordinate.

Yeah, I know that sounds gay.

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So what do ya think?

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That you're immature, like most thirteen year olds?

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Originally Posted by Devil Man

He could be bisexual.

Bisexual perhaps?

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No.

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Originally Posted by Devil Man

Sam doesn't love Pip or Merry as much. Or even Rosie for that matter. It's just Frodo, Frodo, Frodo.

And similarly, Frodo doesn't worship Sam as nearly as much Samn worships Frodo.

And, lest we forget, Pip and Merry are great friends with Frodo AND Sam.

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Umm, no, Mariadoc is Frodo's second cousin (or immediate cousin, I have no access to my books and family trees at this time). Peregrin is Frodo's third cousin (or something twice removed).

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Originally Posted by Devil Man

Its nothing to do with the quality of the story, it's to do with whether Professor J R R Tolkein was subtly discussing homosexuality with his portrayal of Samwise Gamgee.

And it would matter, because that means that Lord of the Rings has even greater sub-texts then we initially realised.

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Umm, no.

And yes, anyone can find meanings in Tolkien's work, because Tolkien's work can be interpreted to mean everything, including changes of style and the passage of time. Many will find something new in Tolkien's work. It's really part of his skill and awesomeness.

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Originally Posted by Devil Man

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Originally Posted by Arkady

The only relationship in the entire trilogy that comes close is the relationship between Eowyn and Aragorn, but even then Aragorn remains true to stupid, stupid, stupid Arwen. I hate Arwen so much.

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Oooo? How come? Do you hate Arwen in LotR book or do you hate the Liv Tyler Arwen of the films? What be the reason for this grudge? :holmes:

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Yes, it is disappointing. One could also assume that she hates Lúthien, too, because Lúthien is only FAR more annoying than Arwen is. Fortunately for her, Beren is also ten times cooler than Aragorn. Finrod Felagund for the win!

Thank you, come again.

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Originally Posted by Tavrobel

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Originally Posted by Devil Man

So what do ya think?

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That you're immature, like most thirteen year olds?

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QFT imho :monster2:

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Originally Posted by Tavrobel

Umm, no, Mariadoc is Frodo's second cousin (or immediate cousin, I have no access to my books and family trees at this time). Peregrin is Frodo's third cousin (or something twice removed).

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Took_clan

It's not the greatest layout, but it helps with the determination of their relationship to Frodo. The Took Clan's family tree is superior to the Brandybuck's. In terms of information given.

Anyway, Merry and Pippin are first cousins to each other.

I hate book Arwen. She sits and does nothing but look attractive. Why on earth would Aragorn want to be with someone who sits. He wants to be with Eowyn, but he lets himself believe he and Arwen will work. And they don't, not really. After he dies, she gets pouty and runs around in Galadriel's forest until they finally decide to let her go home.

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Originally Posted by Tavrobel

Yes, it is disappointing. One could also assume that she hates Lúthien, too, because Lúthien is only FAR more annoying than Arwen is. Fortunately for her, Beren is also ten times cooler than Aragorn. Finrod Felagund for the win!

Thank you, come again.

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I don't really know a whole lot about their story, as I haven't read everything in the histories. Also, I could be very wrong on what I'm saying, because it's been awhile. I just hate Arwen so much.

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Originally Posted by Bunny

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Took_clan

It's not the greatest layout, but it helps with the determination of their relationship to Frodo. The Took Clan's family tree is superior to the Brandybuck's. In terms of information given.

Anyway, Merry and Pippin are first cousins to each other.

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Thanks. My link also contains a link to the family tree. Somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Arkady

I hate book Arwen. She sits and does nothing but look attractive. Why on earth would Aragorn want to be with someone who sits. He wants to be with Eowyn, but he lets himself believe he and Arwen will work. And they don't, not really. After he dies, she gets pouty and runs around in Galadriel's forest until they finally decide to let her go home.

I don't really know a whole lot about their story, as I haven't read everything in the histories. Also, I could be very wrong on what I'm saying, because it's been awhile. I just hate Arwen so much.

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That link was not directed towards you, by the way. You'll love the Silmarillion, though. If inaction makes you sad, then what the Valar do will DEFINITELY make you happy. Not reading the Silmarillion can cause some confusion and omission of the backstory, so I'll do what I can to explain this.

Anyways, as it turns out, after they are wed, they do work, because Arwen forsakes the immortality aspect of her mixed heritage, and dies. Sometimes, life isn't worth living if your husband/wife is dead.

Arwen, being the result of both an Elf and a Man; well, technically, a 15/32ths Elf and a three-quarters female, the deal that her ancestor, Eärendil made with the Valar (for the sake of his wife, Elwing). It was that all those who were born of both Elven and Human blood were able to choose which of the houses they could go under; complete with benefits, and not-so-much benefits.

Elros (from whom Aragorn was descended) decided that he and all of his spawn would be Human, on their behalf. His brother, Elrond (LOL ARWEN'S DAD LOL), chose to be Elven, with the decision of his children left to their discretion. All of Elrond's children choose, eventually, to be Human.

Should Arwen have remained an Elf (or simply, someone with a longer span of life), it would not work; precedent, Erendis and Aldarion of Númenor. It really does seem that if you are part Elven, you will eventually be doomed to be Human, with the exception of Eärendil, Elwing, and Elrond. All other half-elvens were either killed by this time, or decended from Elros.

I hope that clears things up. Even if Arwen wanted to act, the inability to do anything during the War of the Ring and after, was the result of a prohibitive action taken by her father, or her own choice. Either way, Éowyn ends up with Faramir, which is by far, a better match.

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Originally Posted by Arkady

I hate book Arwen. She sits and does nothing but look attractive. Why on earth would Aragorn want to be with someone who sits. He wants to be with Eowyn, but he lets himself believe he and Arwen will work. And they don't, not really. After he dies, she gets pouty and runs around in Galadriel's forest until they finally decide to let her go home.

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Maybe Tolkein was just trying to make her like some kind of stereotypical, perfect woman of the 19th Century. Y'know, she should be 'Hot, look good all the time, not answer back to the main man of the house, should brush her golden hair, be the stay-at-home-soccer-Mom-who-bakes-cookies' type of girl.

I thought Arwen was alright. Perhaps Tolkein just wanted her to be very classical.

I personally think Rosie is the hottest chick in the LotR. Even if she is a Hobbit (Devil Man not too fussy ;))

I've always seen Sam as the ultimate hero of the series, frankly.

A lot of good points have been made here, and I think the most important one has to do with loyalty. The bond that Frodo and Sam have, and all the fellowship, is a bond that you often see in comrades in arms. The sort of bond that makes people brothers and sisters through battle and war, willing to literally die for one another. It IS love, but love in the purest form, that you love someone so much you'd give up your life for them. There isn't a hint about any sort of sexual love between the characters, but it is love and devotion to keeping the other alive.

There is also the point raised about class, and it's an interesting one. Sam has sometimes been described as a dog to Frodo's master, that he is always there and ready to do what it takes and is loyal because Frodo has shown him kindness, a kindness that most masters don't have to show to their dogs for example. In the books it seems much more pronounced that Sam and Frodo are of different classes, so I think a more apt comparison is the noble versus servant analogy that has been floated and the fact that Frodo who seems of higher status would treat Sam as an equal creates such a fierce devotion that it becomes love for him, love for him to succeed and for him to somehow repay all the kindness.


Take care all.

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Originally Posted by Devil Man

Maybe Tolkein was just trying to make her like some kind of stereotypical, perfect woman of the 19th Century.

I thought Arwen was alright. Perhaps Tolkein just wanted her to be very classical.

I personally think Rosie is the hottest chick in the LotR. Even if she is a Hobbit (Devil Man not too fussy ;))

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Clearly not, despite your views and statements otherwise; something involving dead-hot, drop-gorgeous women.

Immortality is hardly perfection. By all means, it is the precise opposite.

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Originally Posted by Tavrobel

Clearly not, despite your views and statements otherwise; something involving dead-hot, drop-gorgeous women.

Immortality is hardly perfection. By all means, it is the precise opposite.

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In your opinion that is.

In other peoples opinions, it is perfection.

Emo isn't perfection. Far from it.

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Originally Posted by Tavrobel

Emo isn't perfection. Far from it.

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You got me there :)

Yeah, point conceded. Immortality probably is not perfection.

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Originally Posted by White Raven

This thread makes me think of one of my favourite movie quotes of 2006. I'll just quote what Kevin Weisman says because what Randal says is quite explicit and would ruin it's magic if I censored it:

Hobbit Lover: "Hey *explicit*, Sam and Frodo aren't gay! They're hobbits!"

And for all of those that have seen this movie, I totally agree with Randal's argument. :p

:)

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hahah yeah that was a great line. i disagree with the argument but whatever....they just have a brotherly love if you ask me, sam obviously either feels more strongly or talks more openly about it. the whole end of the world thing might force some people to latch on more strongly to a friend so i chalk part of it up to that too.

I think the main reason why he came off as homosexual is because they were far away from home, not knowing if they were going to survive long enough to see the next day. Sam and Frodo are BEST friends, almost like brothers, and it's natural for people to cling to each other for comfort when you're wandering into the unknown and when tomorrow is uncertain.

Just because he married a girl and had kids with her, that doesn't mean he can't be a homosexual. People still do that today.

Also, Sam and Frodo weren't best friends before the events of the books/movies. At least I;m pretty sure of that....

I am going to just leave it at I don't care about Sam either way, he could have a gay orgy with some other hobbits and I would just say, "that's gross."

Anyone in the whole Lord of the Rings story can be gay. :D

Also, Ian McKellen, the guy who played as Gandalf in the movie, is gay IRL. :thumb:

The actor who plays Sam is hot in RL with beard.

o o;;;;;

You have to remember that Sam and Frodo grew up together in a small community. They were like brothers to one another. And the brotherly love they had for eachother was brought out to the open because they were going through such hardships.

Hardships like they were going through will bring people who truly care for eachother closer together. And will drive people who don't truly care for eachother further apart.

Sam and Frodo probably wouldn't have acted like that if they were just living normal lives. But because they were going through such difficult times the brotherly love they had for eachother was brought out in the open.

Yes. That's it. Sam is incredibly gay. :rolleyes2

Nah, he's not gay. He just loves his master very much.

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Originally Posted by shawynie

The actor who plays Sam is hot in RL with beard.

o o;;;;;

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hope your a guy...

No, he's not.

1) Tolkein was an ultra-religious Christian who would never make one of the characters homosexual.
2) Just because Sam is close to his friend Frodo doesn't make him or Frodo gay. It's called friendship. Guys now adays are just too insecure with themselves to ever be that close. It's kind of sad.

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Originally Posted by Warrior Yuna

No, he's not.

1) Tolkein was an ultra-religious Christian who would never make one of the characters homosexual.
2) Just because Sam is close to his friend Frodo doesn't make him or Frodo gay. It's called friendship. Guys now adays are just too insecure with themselves to ever be that close. It's kind of sad.

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Exactly

I dont think so, I just got the special edition dvd's and they (professers and Peter Jackson) said that Tolkein hated allegories especially issues that could relate his stories to todays society. Furthermore, he pined for that chick when he wasnt thinking about frodo, the ring and smeegal!

Gay? Never. Bisexual? Maybe...

hmm well blitz WE all know your a bisexual... hehe jk's plz don't bowl a spinner or a flipper on me..

1) Sam loves Frodo deeply, he's his friend and he has an oath.

2) Remember, hobbits are a different race and culture.

3) If anyone's gay, it's Frodo himself.

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Originally Posted by darkchrono

You have to remember that Sam and Frodo grew up together in a small community. They were like brothers to one another. And the brotherly love they had for eachother was brought out to the open because they were going through such hardships.

Hardships like they were going through will bring people who truly care for eachother closer together. And will drive people who don't truly care for eachother further apart.

Sam and Frodo probably wouldn't have acted like that if they were just living normal lives. But because they were going through such difficult times the brotherly love they had for eachother was brought out in the open.

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I'm not sure on this, but I think Sam was just the smurfing gardener....

And no he is also not the gay gardener you see mowing the lawn with just underwear on which is red...