Let's talk about challenging games

I'm sure Dark Souls will inevitably take over this thread. But what's prompting me right now is that I'm currently playing through Furi for the first time (I'm about a year late) and absolutely loving it. And the only thing I can compare it with is one of my all-time favorite games: Hyper Light Drifter

They're both very colorful and stylized, they both rely on dashing, sword slashing, shooty mechanics, with unique and challenging boss battles and very vague but fascinating stories. And they both rely on quick reflexes and fairly precise timing mechanics

So I did a Google search to see how often they came up together in topics, and ended up getting a ton of search results of people complaining how broken Furi is

For those that don't know it has mild bullet-hell moments (maybe bullet purgatory is more appropriate naming?) and an invincibility dash, which you can charge up for a second to dash across the screen rather than just a few spaces away when you do a normal tap

It seems people are having a lot of trouble tapping the dash button? They say there's a delay because it's designed to charge, which I never experienced. You tap it, you dash, you hold it, you charge and dash when you release

There's also a nice parry mechanic where when you're in a melee situation the bosses will have a white flash on their weapons and you'll hear an audio cue which is just meant to tell you a parry is available. I've heard people say you can use the audio cue to get a perfect parry (which automatically results in a follow-up counter attack animation from your character), but I've had zero trouble using just the light cue. And there are certain delays in animations. Some bosses will light their weapon and hold. And of course you don't parry before they attack

Long story short, people are complaining because they can't handle the mechanics. They're not good players, they're not picking up on the timing, and what all is available to them

And I actually did find a few topics saying similar things about Hyper Light Drifter

I'm more interested in finding more games like this, not belittle the developers to make easier games and cater to the lowest common denominator. I'm not a masochist, and I'm not out for bragging rights. I suck at Dark Souls, but I love these games. They're just challenging and rewarding enough to create a state of flow for me, which is extremely rare for me in gaming these days

And for those that aren't familiar with that term, a state of flow is a psychological situation where if you're doing something that's not challenging enough you get bored, or if it's too challenging you get frustrated, and if it's just right you get flow

People also brought up how "glorious" the parry mechanic was in Onimusha (I wouldn't know, I never played it)

But yeah, any other challenging yet fun games out there people have enjoyed? I could use some suggestions for after I finish Furi

And if anyone has any comments on their opinions or experiences with challenging games those are welcome as well

I for one don't get a ton of game time now but I never minded a challenge. Today a lot of people get things handed to them and don't know what it is like to work hard for something. They see a game people are talking about, pick it up and the first time they die they go nuts wondering why it's so tough then complain that it is to tough to play period. When in reality it may just take some slowing down and accessing the situation to continue on.

Its nice ice that games like dragon age have made it so you can play it on easy, or go after nightmare mode. They also have an In between for people too.

I enjoy joy the middle myself but once in a while will take on a game with a challenge to see how I stack up. I always enjoyed challenging myself so I am for not the dumbing down of games, but for a even flow with them.

I had a lot of fun playing the Touhou series of games. A playthrough of any given mainline game takes less than half an hour (though you'll have to try more than a few times to get that first Normal 1CC) and you get to listen to some of gaming's best soundtracks while you do it.

The Touhou games were mentioned both in the GameFAQs thread and the Kotaku article comments by people who enjoy challenging and rewarding bullet hell games. I've never tried them, its rare for me to get into any kind of arcade shooter, but I did love Ikaruga and it's family and the games it inspired. Never beat any of them, but I've played and liked quite a few. So its one of those things where I'm glad games like Touhou exist, and am mature enough to think "it's not for me" rather than "it's too hard and needs to be toned down" the way a lot of these people seem to be thinking

Ignoring my recent love affair with the Soulsborne franchise which I don't feel needs to be mentioned, I'm going to go outside the box and suggest Catherine. It's a puzzle game with some minor dating sims aspect like Persona (same team) but it's a challenging title if you play it on anything that is above easy mode. It's also a total blast and one of my favorite titles from last gen.

Any mainline Shin Megami Tensei game before 4 (so 1, 2, Nocturne and Strange Journey).

Although not insurmountable for anyone because you can do excessive grinding and/or just look up strategies/party compositions online, they're plenty challenging if you don't do that.