All I know is that if I don't finally see Ser Barristan swing a smurfing sword soon I'm going to LOSE MY GODDAMN MIND!
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All I know is that if I don't finally see Ser Barristan swing a smurfing sword soon I'm going to LOSE MY GODDAMN MIND!
I was actually very curious how you felt about Talisa being stabbed in the uterus, but I know some pregnant women get really sensitive and stuff, so I didn't want to ask you and potentially upset you.
Also, future/book spoiler As much as I want UnCat next episode, it'd be an amazing surprised halfway through next season, or something.
I don't blame you; I am irritable as smurf.
By the way, all you non-book readers better be voting for Shlup as Best Admin in the Ciddies. She's the one who cleans up this thread for you.
Beatcha to it! :}
Yes but BoB is the one who griped about it enough in the staff forum that one of us finally had to go do it :p
George R.R. Martin was the one who changed Jeyne Westerling into Talisa Maegyr, hth.
Even knowing what was coming the last 10 minutes of that episode were some of the most suspensful, tense, and nail-biting television I've ever seen. I've rarely seen the sense that something is wrong escalated so expertly and I'm not even sure we were watching the same show.Quote:
Horror, the literary genre of storytelling, which GRRM is a grandmaster of, is all about the suspense and build-up, and the eery paranoia, the sense that something is off, was completely missed by the showrunners with this scene.
It was such a scene. I'm fairly sure it will live on in TV history for a long time. Haunting and powerful.
Yeah I'm with Hux and Rantz. I knew it was coming but the whole scene was still tense as hell.
BTW, GRRM has put (and continues to put) huge amounts of input into the show so assuming that everything was done without his direction is wrong. He has written several of the episodes, including some of the ones that involve "new" characters, and I want to say he's a producer/executive producer or something as well.
Didn't GRRM used to work in television?
Martin started his writing career in television on Beauty and the Beast.
Martin has only written three episodes (one each season), and while none of these episodes have featured show-only characters, the most recent one (The Bear and the Maiden Fair, S3E7) did feature events which never happened in the books (Melisandre revealing Gendry's parentage to him). Martin is, however, an executive producer and does oversee the story for the show.
Yeah, I was very pleased with the scene, but even more so with the events leading up to it. Show Catelyn is awesome, but that is mostly due to Michelle Fairley's great acting skills
It also helps that the scene was set in her POV in ASOS. XD
I was initially afraid that they would lessen Cat's POV a lot in favor of Robb's or even Talisa's. I never minded some Robb depth (as he had very little in the books), but I was wary that they might put too much.
However, I'm overall satisfied with the execution of the scene. I could nitpick about a few lines and actions I wish had happened, but those are just personal preferences. They pulled it off well enough for viewers to freak out and remember it.
Wasn't that the Blackfish? Mini book spoils I guess. (SPOILER)He wasn't even at the Red Wedding and I was like "wtf are you doing here brynden YOU BETTER NOT DIE" when I saw him. I started laughing my ass off when I saw how he dodged the bullet.
Also there is no more Stark army dude, they all got smurfing murdered/captured or they were Bolton men who, well... you saw what their Lord did. Did you not pay attention to the bits with The Hound? :p
I just saw someone refer to GRRM as Evil Santa and it's cracking me up.
Having read over the comments given above I can say that I, too, am pleased with the scene, regardless the fact that I haven't watched my self.
Which brings me to the following question: where can I watch it for free? Preferably w/out having to download some spam/ad heavy video viewer first, thank you.
On a final note, knowing that GRRM is supervising the show at least means that the show won't alter the story/content much from what if found in the books.
Book 5 spoilerand on a final final note, I've got a quick question for any one who has finished the 5th book: at the end, when Dany is found in the grasslands by that other band, I can't remember if the khal in charge of that band was original riding with khal Drogo's band when he died. Can any one clarify? just a piece I've been curious about
Solarmovie has many links for every episode roughly 3.7 seconds after their official release.
By the way, I disagree with people who say this show is about 'the bigger picture' and that events like the red wedding cause us to lose focus on what's really going on. Yes, there is a dragon-led army being built overseas and a horde of undead warriors lurking in the north, but those are only the backdrop on what is really a story about characters and how each of them view this world that contains all those things and the events that shape it. If it wasn't, then why are there so many 'character development' scenes where nothing really happens and why aren't more of the major battles shown?
So when these characters continue to be tortured, killed, neglected, betrayed, chastized, etc. it does wear you down and make you wonder what this is all for. This is not a knock against those who really like the show for the overall political and grand epic scale of it, because I like it for that too and will continue to watch it for that, but I can see where some of the criticism is coming from when people say they are done with the show because of what happened in the last episode. A bit of an overraction, but at the same time the question 'is there ever a silver lining for these characters we've gotten so close to?' is a very valid one to ask at this point.
It's more that people watching this show (or reading the books) need to learn at a certain point that there are no happy endings. There will never be any happy endings, and even Martin has been pretty open about this from the beginning. The best we're going to get is bittersweet. It's plenty fair that people may not be interested in something so bleak as a form of escapism, but people have had three seasons to figure out what was point-blank told to us in episode six: "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."
That line is this entire series in a nutshell. They've been maiming and killing major characters since the word go. I'm not saying that people should have expected the Red Wedding (Martin put it in for the express purpose of subverting expectations), but people really shouldn't be surprised that a series that made its name by killing off the main character at the end of the first book/season is going to continue to kill off major characters.
If they're not used to it by now, it's probably better that they stop watching. (Almost) nobody is safe. There are a few characters who will almost certainly be alive for the final act, but there's not a single character who I can say I'm confident will be alive after the grand finale. I find that terribly exciting. If others don't, well, probably time they cut loose.
I actually like it. In near every story fantasy or not, the MCs can make stupid decisions and never see repercussion. Those hobbits aren't all going to die, Sauron will be defeated!
War is messy. In war, people die. In life, people die. Some don't make it out alive to live to that promised old age. That's the human element. The good guys don't always win in life. That's what I like about GRRM's books. Evil Santa shows you that gifts are just that, a gift, a gift of life. If you say or do something wrong it WILL affect you. The story WILL be affected. Sure Robb marrying for luv luv was noble but it was ultimately a stupid decision. And he paid for it.
The human element, the realistic element is that bad stuff can and does happen. People die. You may get attached to these characters but there is a reason for it. They are people, believable people at that. You should hate that they die. You should feel emotion over it. Because that's how life is. Life is hard. Representing that in a book or movie is hard. The fact that it's been accomplished is a feat of itself. You become invested in the story more. You want those damn lannisters killed for it!
Both aspects matter. There's clearly something bigger afoot than the usual political bickering of the Seven Kingdoms - Dany has dragons, and last time a Targ got some dragons the entirity of Westeros was changed forever. In the far north the White Walkers are stirring, and they last did so was like 8,000 years ago and resulted in the Wall being built. The Red God R'hllor, or at least His clergy, seem to have huge ambitions on Westeros as well, and the last time the faith of Westeros changed significantly was also thousands of years previously, and even Aegon the Conquerer adopted the Faith of the Seven instead of trying to usurp it. And the Red God has power.
But the political situation that is ongoing as these grand events take place are also vitally important. Ned or Robb could very plausibly have rallied the North to fight the White Walkers, but can Walder Frey or Roose Bolton or whoever ends up in charge after the Red Wedding? Would they even care to try? Down south Tywin clearly has the leadership and intelligence to lead a defense against a Dothraki Horde (when that looked like a possibility) or Dany's dragons, if he judges such a thing can be won, but he's trying to wrestle for power with Joffrey, Tyrion, Cersei, and Olenna, among others. If, I dunno, Littlefinger makes a move to gain more power at just the wrong time, or Cersei and Tyrion start a fight for influence, or Joffrey commits some scandal that's hard to keep under wraps, Tywin might be too busy dealing with that to even pay attention to a fleet of Unsullied and Dragons.
So both matter. The big threats matter, though those are still slowly being built up, and the political stuff that guides reactions to those matter.
And as for wondering whether your favorite character is going to get a break? "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." Edit: Damnit Zach :argh:
Well yeah but they're not an army anymore, they're broken men.
Also, Del, the characters have both happy moments and moments of triumph, as well as the sad moments and the tragedy. Robb has several huge tactical victories, becomes a King, finds the love of his life - it's not been endless misery for the lad.
Oh I'm not too concerned with Robb. He definitely had is time to shine before his own ill advised decisions undid him. His arc was pretty well done and it was clear he was never going to 'win' the war. It is Catelyn that was the real tragedy. Nothing but crap happened to her from the start of the series. I was hoping for a little bit more than 'I stayed up with Jon Snow when he was sick' to wrap up her storyline. Maybe a brief reuinion with Arya, or some knowledge that her boys survived, or even a reaction to her oldest daughter marrying the person she captured to start this whole mess. We got none of that, and I felt it was a huge slight to those who grew attached to her character.
Speaking of Jon Snow, I sure hope the poor guy gets to learn who his mother is someday.
Also I hope Ygritte doesn't hunt him down and wear his "pretty lil' cock" round her neck like she said she was going to earlier :shifty:
I can't really answer your post without giving away book spoilers, Del. If you still feel like this in 12 months time I will be surprised though, that is all I will say.
Speaking of Jon Snow, I sure hope we get to learn who his mother is someday. In all seriousness, though, Martin has said that Jon Snow's mother will be revealed before the series is over. Most book readers have already figured it out beyond most reasonable doubt, but they haven't done any of the groundwork and foreshadowing for that reveal in the TV show, even though there has been consistent evidence pointing to Seriously Major Speculative SpoilerLyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen being Jon's parents since the very first book. But a great deal of the most compelling evidence for this (such as from Ned Stark's fever dreams while in the Black Cells and from Dany's visions in the House of the Undying) was cut from the show.
He's not.
Or is he?
I think he is. I don't trust Ouch! either. Maybe if Frekana verified it.
That ending was great. I liked the show from the beginning, but Ned's death at the end of S1 was what convinced me that this was a really great thing.
I feel for those who have been truly upset by it, but this show doesn't even begin to approach Breaking Bad for making me feel like trout. BB general spoilerWalt's slow progression into an absolute monster is the biggest TV downer I've ever seen, but it remains my favorite drama series of all time.
i need to stop reading this thread and start reading the books
screw your secretive book spoilers :(
Breaking Bad SpoilerTo be fair, the entire purpose of the show was to turn the protagonist into the antagonist by the end. It's what makes it so interesting. I've gone from rooting for Walt to being horrified by the things he does and the ways he reacts. It's really a testament to just fantastic writing.
Yes, I understand that, didn't really need to explain it.
Also, Breaking Badhttp://i47.:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:...u:/33yhrbn.jpg
I've read them. Thanks!
But hes right saying anything will spoil!
Pike can I ask what made you tense? Between Cat exchanging wedding jokes with Lord Bolton and Robb flirting with Talisa, I almost thought they werent going to go through with it.
And GRRM has stated in multiple interviews that it's D&Ds show, he hasn't even been to the set in years. When he writes his episode, they give him an outline, and his script is heavily edited before being shot.
im starting on the books now. i always prefer to read after the tv show/film.
ive made the mistake once to read a harry potter book before the seeing the film... it completely ruined the film for me
You are all overlooking the fact that the 2 best characters are still alive and well.
Stannis & Davos.
Because the Harry Potter books are so much better than the movies? Or at least some of the movies. I actually think the movies got better as they progressed. But certainly they weren't the best of adaptations.
I like reading books before I watch an adaptation. It gives you a fuller picture of everything and probably a better understanding too. But sometimes, if the adaptation is crap, it just makes it that much worse to watch. It's the reason I won't be watching the World War Z movie. The book was excellent. The movie looks like horse dung.
On the flip side, I like Game of Thrones as a show way more than what I read of the book.
book 5Yup. Jhaqo.
In the books, the laws of hospitality were established as one of the most ancient, most sacred codes. Part of the RW's effect was thanks to that, I think - like most people, I could tell something was wrong and that the new alliance would be terribly shaky at best, but I was deeply convinced that whatever happened, they wouldn't do anything there and then with the guests protected by these ancient unwritten laws. It was such a terrible taboo being broken, and I kind of wish that got translated to the show, but I think that the light mood was something of a supplement to display that sense of safety that the characters were feeling, despite the tension being as high as it was.
The whole thing had a dark sense of foreboding to it and when the song kicked in it really upped it even more.
Also I'm curious why you're asking me in particular when I was in the middle of a string of like six people saying they liked the scene. :p Ask all of them too.
So Arya decided to do her own reaction video to the Red Wedding, in a style that I can only explain as a combination of redneck and hyperactive 12-year-old girl. It is worth it just for her facial expressions.
Just watched it. As a non-book reader, I cried. I'm not using hyperbole. I really, was saddened by the entire thing. I felt most sad for Catelyn though. I really connect with her as a character, and the fact that her son, and his son's wife (who she did bond with towards the end and respected her) died, well. She didn't have long to grieve, anywho.
The entire episode had hints of foreboding however. The line Robb gives where "it is treason to strike a lord" when Talisa lovingly attempts to smack him was one hint. Another hint was the thunderstorms throughout as well, giving even more foreboding. What was worse was that I didn't notice these at first. The first half of the episode (essentially from the start till the end of the bedding ceremony) was joyful, and even humorous. It led you up into thinking that all was well, but then real concerns screamed at you. The closing of the doors. Catelyn's concerned face. Roose Bolton's chainmail and general demeanour, and the fact he wasn't drinking. As soon as I noticed the doors closing, I knew something was going down.
And boy, am I bloody miserable. I never felt this sad in a GoT episode. Even Ned Stark's beheading was more interesting than saddening. I couldn't even watch most of the slaughtering. I sort of had it in the corner of my eye and listened instead. Catelyn's final plea was literally heartbreaking. I don't know how to react or how to think. It is probably the most surprising episode in quite awhile. Now, obviously, it being Episode Nine, I was expecting drama as GoT loves making the ninth episode it's climax with a denouement in the tenth. But even so. I was perhaps expecting a death or two, but not the entire Stark family unit. What made it worse was that guest right was invoked from the first minute. I mean, seriously. I'm pretty sure the Freys are not going to get off lightly for this. But it was really the Boltons who were the main betrayers and masterminds (together with the Lannisters, but then, you can't blame them for wanting to damage the enemy). The Freys are the public face of this event, but I doubt the Boltons will be revealed as a culprit. Unless I'm missing something, of course.
I've still got my heart pounding and I know I am rambling but I don't care. I did like how the entire episode focused only on Starks. Jon, Bran (who has been woefully obscure this season: then again, all he's doing is travelling) and of course Robb/Cat. Oh, and Dany. I didn't like Dany's segment really in this episode and I find the Dany's lovefest with Daario slightly unsettling. She doesn't seem like someone who relies on someone and is quite independent, but she's so worried over him! Sheesh, he's been in your army for like 10 minutes. I'm beginning to lose interest in Dany once again because of this though. I found her presence in the episode distracting rather than complementary. I would have preferred it focus solely on the Starks. They all end on cliffhangers: Jon's escape, the Red Wedding, and to a degree the Bran storyline where he wargs for the first time and Osha leaves with Rickon. They all ended on cliffhangers with leave me wanting more. Mytha (isn't that what the next one's called?) is going to epic.
I'm still going on aren't I? Nevermind. Oh! I missed out Arya! Of course. Make that four Stark storylines. The build-up scenes with the Hound was good and consolidated Arya's hate for him. Which then sort of makes it ironic because he ends up saving her life. He could have just let her run off into the Twins castle, but, he forcefully makes her leave. He didn't have to, but it does show his sense of duty and/or 'kindness', at least towards minors anyway. But again, cliffhanger.
I should seriously stop now, but basically, that was epically sad. The silent credit sequence was perfect because I'm lost for words too.
book 5 Was he one of Drogo's blood riders? That's what I'm most curious about, I can't remember that bit. Thanks for clarifying that much, though.
bookieThat 'yup' was meant to affirm that he was. XD Sorry if I was unclear.
The moment Jorah's Heart broke :(
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Oh man I love the internet. Funny pictures galore!
I find the most interesting thing lately about the dany story is the Jorah stuff
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I still think the Red Wedding would have been better if they'd kept the Greatjon there fighting everyone and anyone to in a vain attempt save Robb.
Although it probably would not have worked, I would have liked to see more time dedicated to the Red Wedding, similar to how the Battle of Blackwater took up the entire episode. I think it would have had enough meat in it to take up at least half of an episode, if not the entire thing. It seems like they went for sudden, in-your-face brutality rather than, at least what I saw, as underhanded scheming.
Still good, still enjoyable. One of the better scenes of the series, but I think it could have been handled better and more true to the story.
Some insight as to why the Red Wedding is so heinous:
We saw the Starks take bread and salt offered by Lord Frey--sharing food and drink with guests put them under Guest Right, a protection which is taken very seriously. In fact, Sam and Gilly are on their way to the Night Fort, which is the site of a famous incident that took place hundreds of years ago in relation to Guest Right. A king was visiting, and a cook murdered and fed the king his son. The cook then turned into a giant rat, cursed to eat its own young for all of eternity. It wasn't that the cook murdered the prince and fed him to his father that cursed him--it was breaking Guest Right.
So Walder Frey cursed and dishonored his house irreparably when he killed off the Starks. You can chide Robb for entering the house of a guy who hates him, but he really should've been able to feel secure under Guest Right.
You're doing that obnoxious book reader thing again. And I'm not sure I agree with you anyway.
What do you mean "again"? And for that matter, what do you mean "Obnoxious", the man specifically asked if the Starks have a happy ending. "Wait and see" is hardly hehehe wait for Episode 9 ;) ;) ;). I can understand your disagreement though. I kind of have my own ideas about where this is going to go, and if I'm right it'll be nice.
Obvs MASSIVE book spoilers but mostly theory: (SPOILER)Cat will learn the truth of Jon Snow being not Ned's after all and feel very bad about how awful she was, and redeem herself by giving him the kiss and making sure he knows who his parents really were. And she'll see a couple of her kids again too I guess.
The "again" wasn't meant to refer to you specifically, just that is happens in this thread and is annoying.
End of book 3 spoilerI feel like you're implying Cat's story isn't over, which is a big spoiler. I don't think many non-readers will pick up on it, but I still want to flick you. Del doesn't know what he wants; don't answer him!
Spoiler from Book 17 which is still brewing in GRRM's brainNed Stark is resurrected as a zombie and terrorizes what's left of a post-apocalyptic and dystopian Westeros, it's actually pretty great
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Wendel Manderly. This actor apparently has a scene that was cut but he is still there at the wedding and was killed.
Books: (SPOILER)Isn't that sort of vital for explaining the hilarious trolling Wyman Manderly does later on? Should have had a couple of lines just introducing him at least.
I thought it was important too. Very important.
I just found out that the guy who plays Hodor plays a ton of World of Warcraft.
Do you think I can wrangle him into playing with me if I resub?
Seen in a Barnes & Noble:
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LOL. And to add to that:
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And here's a Facebook recap of The Rains of Castamere.
Unrelated, but I went to Goodwill (a secondhand shop/donation center) today and saw a hardcover copy of A Dance With Dragons for 3.99. What.
Spoilers for the A Song of Ice and Fire book series in this post.
(SPOILER)Lady Stoneheart is leading the Brotherhood Without Banners. She is nowhere near the wall. Catelyn cared little for Jon in life, why would she care for him in death? It was Ned who knew the secret of Jon's parentage. Catelyn would not harbor such a grudge with Jon if she knew the secret of Jon's parentage and that Ned had not dishonored her as she imagined. So, this theory would require that Lady Stoneheart somehow comes upon the truth of Jon Snow's parentage, makes a trek to the wall, and then arrives at the exact moment to give him the kiss of life.
(SPOILER)Which therefore implies that she has already met Howland Reed (the only living person who can confirm Jon's parentage) and after we last saw her with Brienne she immediately headed north and will arrive just in time at the beginning of book six. All of which, of course, are very unlikely.
Either Howland Reed will appear at some point (it has been confirmed that he will eventually show up) and cross paths with Jon (or someone on their way to Jon) to reveal that Jon's mother is Lyanna Stark and his father is Rhaegar Targaryen, or Bran is going to find out using his newfound ability to warg into the past through the Weirwoods and inform Jon in some manner.
Also, just because Melisandre hasn't yet given the kiss of life does not mean that she is incapable of doing so.
Massive book spoilersIt's so heavily foreshadowed that Jon will warg into Ghost to save his consciousness intact and then be resurrected by Melisandre that I'm not really sure why his fate is even in doubt. The prologue of the book is pretty clearly there to establish that skinchangers can save their consciousness inside wild animals, and it's already established that red priest(esse)s are able to resurrect people from the dead (even if Melisandre hasn't been depicted doing this yet). Melisandre's presence there is no coincidence.
(SPOILER)I know she's not there now. I think it's pretty obvious, as Aaron says, that Jon warged into Ghost - but he can't remain a dire wolf forever. I think Catelyn as a character feels so much remorse over how horrible she was to Jon now that she believes all of her other children are gone. You have to remember that two of her children are indeed in the North. Rickon is the most likely to raise his head due to what Wyman Manderly is up to - so that is why I think she will head north, and on the way is of course Greywater Watch so I think she will encounter the truth from Howland Reed. Someone has to tell Jon, after all! It could be Howland himself, I guess, but he has no connection with Jon and that would lack some impact, I think. I just cannot believe Catelyn and Jon Snow are finished yet and to me that seems like the ultimate redemption.
(Book spoils)
Massive book spoilers, againI do have to admit that the idea of Stoneheart doing something to repay her debt to Jon is a compelling idea, and I wouldn't even be surprised if Martin is planning something along those lines eventually, but I just don't think she'll resurrect him, unless he gets killed again. It's too likely that Melisandre will save him.
(SPOILER)They're hundreds and hundreds of miles away from eachother with a war going on between them. I highly doubt Stoneheart will the one saving Jon. (Spook Boiler)
Book 5 spoilers
(SPOILER)Actually it's not all that cut and dry. Personally I think the foreshadowing is that this heavy injury (only two of the stabbings could be considered fatal) is the catalyst for Jon to learn his Warg abilities properly, just as Bran needed his fall and Arya needed the blindness. I think he will then quickly use this to somehow get his physical body repaired (NOT Melisandre hocus pocus) after quite a while, and be able to return. I think there are several possibilities, but like you I think it is unlikely that this is the complete end of Jon, just out of a story perspective and not because I don't want him to die.
ADWD SpoilersJon is quickly emerging as a major character for Azor Ahai Reborn. Jon needs to die so that he can be reborn amid smoke and salt.
I'm with Zach on this. ADWD spoilerJon's death is probably for real, but won't stick.
cut for length
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Not going to read any spoilers. Just jumping in here, late to the party as usual, to say that I just started watching (finished the 4th episode like 20 mins ago) and I can already say that this is probably the most awesome tv-series ever, oh my gash I can't stop watching. It's 3AM over here, BUT I JUST CAN'T STOP!
Welcome to the Throners club. :monster:
Yes. Yes she is.
Also, another Barnes & Noble sighting:
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smurf you, book 5 spoilers. >:[
Can I ask all of the Arya lovers why they love her so much? I'm not even trolling or being snarky, I am just legitimately asking a question as to why she gets so much love.
I love the fact that she is such a smart ass and somehow gets away with it. Somebody definitely should have killed her by now with that mouth. But somehow she survived.
Also her story in the books kind of a spoilergets to be pretty bad ass. I can't wait for more.
Arya doesn't take trout from anyone in a world that doesn't value females at all. That alone is reason to value her character highly.
Well, I won't argue with that. Personally (and this is just my view on it) I don't really see Arya as female. I see her as gender-fluid.
I love that trout eating grin he has after that. He's like MUHAHAH look at what I have done!
I felt the same way when Khinsider was getting death threats over my Kh3 prank for april fools. So I really can't hate the dude too much. The reactions are the best part!
Probably a book spoiler or something that someone will get offended byFrom the very beginning, she showed that she wasn't merely just another girl, despite society and her own parents telling and treating her as such. She demanded to be the way she wanted to be and did not give a trout what anyone else thought or how difficult it would be. She has, time after time, shown that she is capable of handling situations that someone of her age should not and, specifically with her revenge plot, has shown that she understands much more than she lets on, at least in terms of letting people live longer than she would otherwise like simply because it isn't the time for their death.
That's not a spoiler; now you're over-correcting. Don't worry, even though this is difficult for you I will always be here to help you, Buns.
I agree though.
Neither was the last one but it was apparently problematic.
I know that you think that. It's okay, I don't mind helping you.
Because she (and Brienne) are just about the only females in the show that "I-am-basically-the-opposite-of-feminine"-Pike can identify with.
(Editing because someone is going to misinterpret this as me being a misogynist or something and I feel like I need to clarify what I mean. Growing up I desperately wanted to be a boy and be able to do boy things; I remember throwing fits because my parents wouldn't let me wear boy clothes to certain places. Arya is a lot like I was in that regard. People tell her "You can't do that because you're a girl and that's a guy thing", and she gives them the evil eye and proves that she can.)
I don't understand why it isn't ok for a female to act in a non-stereotypical way and be held up as a model. Joan d'Arc, for example, if far from your stereotypical 'female' but is an idol to many. Does the female need to a type-set 'female' (dresses, rosey cheeks, mothering etc) in order to be an ideal model to admire as a fermale character? Are you saying Arya's stereotypical quasi-masculine traits rule her out of that? Making her basically a man with flaps?
Can effeminate men therefore be ruled out as male role models because they're not your typical 'strong silent, hunter gatherer'?
Not having a go in any way shape or form i'm just curious as to why her personality males women question if she's a great female model. Yiu are not the first female to raise this by the way.
Well, I do like the answers I'm receiving, and I can understand why people like her personality. But she does some pretty smurfed up stuff, so I'm not sure if she should be a role model, per say. xD
EDIT: This post has nothing to do with gender issues at all.
Ok, I read that wrong, I've seen many bring gender into though.
I just meant that my latest post in this thread wasn't saying that someone should like/dislike her for her gender identity or whatever. When I say that she does messed up stuff, I just wanted to clarify that that has nothing to do with the questionable stuff she does.
I just realized I never did get to see Robb's wang. :(
(SPOILER) of course, seeing how everyone's dying left and right in this book, that conversation might take place in the after life. Or as zombies. Zombies does sound more likely, given what's going on in the world.
As for the Arya fans comment, I think she's one of the, I don't know, more original characters? She's a rebel at heart, so she's fun to follow. (SPOILER) she's also not afraid to her hands dirty or delve into dark places, so I'm really interested to see what her character will ultimately develop into
The gender stereotype stuff, eh, you can discuss that forever in another thread
Aaaaaand, I couldn't resist coming here again just to say that I finished the first season within a span of 27 hours. I want to say something more, but there's so much to say that I don't even know what to say. But... holy crap!
Trying to not read too much here to avoid all possible spoilers, but: Arya got the most backbone of all the kids. Even without the facts that she's a girl in a man-dominated world and a child, she feels like one of the strongest characters. The fact that she is a little girl in a man-dominated world only makes her awesomness go up an additional level. :monster:
I love Arya because out of every single person we have ever seen interact with Tywin Lannister she is the only one who has unsettled him.
A 9 year old girl was able to make Tywin Lannister feel some discomfort. (She was also just about the only competent person he's ever met and I bet to hell he wishes he could have adopted that cupbearer.)
The only thing that bothers me about Arya is that people's #1 reason for liking her is her lack of femininity. Not just that she unapologetically is who she is, but that she actively rejects her society's idea of how a woman should be, as if the rejection of all things "girl" is a good thing in itself.
I like Arya because she is who she is, whatever that means, and whatever other people think. She's determined and focused. She's not rejecting anything--when people call her a boy she corrects them that she's definitely a girl--it's just that who she is isn't tied to what society thinks that means.
It's semantics, but the subtlety in the way people express themselves on the subject reveals a lot.
You know I totes agree with you.
I like Arya because she is a precocious little thing. I like her because she's brave. I like that she is separated from everyone she loves and you know, you know she is absolutely terrified and heartbroken but she keeps her chin up and keeps forging ahead. I think her threatening violence upon others is her way of coping, or else she would just shatter apart. Because she's a freakin' child having to go through all this and the fact that she is so young and so vulnerable but she's still held herself together is amazing. I like that she is fierce and defiant. I also love her big doe eyes. I think the actress who plays her does a damn fine job.
She also is handy with a weapons and will probably be amazing one day if she can keep alive that long. I've had a fascination with knives and bow&arrows since I was a kid. I was gifted my first serious professional grade archery equipment when I was in middle school. So I feel fond of Arya cause I can see a little bit of myself in her too. I never considered interest in those things to be non-girly though. And I hope Arya doesn't make any more disparaging comments about girls in the future because it makes me cringe when female characters on GoT say those kinds of things and when viewers echo it as well.
I knew people were going to take what I said the wrong way :p I fully blame myself. I need to learn how to WRITE GOODER.
I wasn't referring to you specifically; I get where you're coming from and can see how you're very much like Arya in that regard. It's not that you're rejecting femininity because it's girlishness that you dislike--it's that people are pushing it on you and you're just trying to be you. It's not that being feminine is a bad thing, it's that society is trying to tell you that's how you have to be and it's just not going to happen.
Yep, and I feel like Arya is the same thing.
Brienne had a similar undercurrent as well, especially when her honor was about to be "besmirched" - aside from the usual horror of it all, there was the horror on top of the whole thing being a raw reminder that she isn't viewed as any sort of equal, which is what she has been pushing against forever. It really added an extra layer of terribleness to the whole thing.
Jaime pretty much instantly redeemed himself forever for stepping in there.
Yep, that's it. Couldn't find the words for it in my "pre-first season all the feels mood", but she is like... the one kid who really won't let others decide her future for her. A good example is when Eddard Stark tells her about how she will have a castle, marry a prince and all that and she simply says: "No. That's not me."
She could have been a boy, and I'd still have considered her the coolest kid for just being the way she is. Her being a girl does, however, give her a slightly different position to the world around her. And thus, she has even more to struggle against. So I think her being a girl adds to her awesomness, since she has more to fight against. It has nothing to do with girlishness/being a tomboy or whatever.
...well, my take on it after first season anyway. :p
That aside, I also love Snow. And Tyrion/"the imp". And really... most of the cast, except Joffrey whom I now hate with a passion... for certain reasons. =(
I like Arya because she's young and yet has more intellect than most people well over twice if not three times her age. She's both booksmart and streetsmart, she's cunning, she's feisty, she's got a great wicked side to her (I enjoy her dark/dry humour) and still is capable of having fun at the right times. I also love her devotion to her father and how much she wants to strike vengeance over it without jumping straight into "THIS MEANS WAR!!!" or whatever. She's doing what she can with the wits she clearly has about her. I like her style, I guess. It's interesting.
In terms of gender issues, nobody, and I mean nobody, hates women more than Cersei does, and I don't think the show does a good job of showing that. Though I guess most of it comes across when she minor spoilerbecomes a POV character in AFFC, so :monster:
I think Arya is overrated but I don't mind her. I'm not really a fan of her actress, she always seems a little wooden or forced.
This is the reason that should be first on everybody's list. She knocked Tywin sodding Lannister off his step. That is literally as badass as it is possible to be in this book.
And then we talk about how it's awesome how she is one of the few characters who isn't full of trout, and consistently refuses to exist as anything other than herself.
I just love Arya because I connect with her a lot. Not because she's refusing to be girly or a girl, but because she stands on her own two feet and refuses to be anybody but herself. Best Stark imo.
Also, that last episode. Wtf.
I also love her hair. I want to chop my hair super short like that. Girls with short hair almost always end up being my favorites.
During this latest episode I (SPOILER)clutched my womb in pain. Poor Talisa man. Poor Talisa.
I like Arya because she has the best adventures.
Also it's like people from Braavos are drawn to her.
I seriously wasn't trying to refer to you in my post. I saw your edit and understood what it was that you meant. It's just a common thing that exists in society, and exists in GoT as well. I've already ranted about it before though in this thread. I was talking more in the sense that Arya herself sees herself as not being into stupid girly things like other girls. I wish more than she would embrace the fact that she is a girl, she likes what she likes, does what she does, and that doesn't make her any less of a female.
I don't know how it is in the books, but it's pretty clear on the show that Cersei does not really care for other women, but more than that, it seems like she just doesn't like PEOPLE in general. She has a lot of hate in her.
Yeah I agree totally, maybe it's more emphasized as only disliking women in the books, but in the show she's certainly no fan of them. People who like women don't sit in a roomful of them talking about the rapes they're likely to soon endure.
It's interesting to compare her to other characters who don't like the role they've been assigned by their gender - Arya and Brienne, especially. Brienne's got the muscle and skill to break anyone who gives her trout, and Arya's just a little badass all around, but Cersei's tried to play the Game how it's meant to be played, in court and everything, but has never really been able to break free of her father's influence. She thinks that's because she's a woman although I'm more inclined to believe Tywin's claim that it's just because she's not as clever as she thinks she is - and it's not like he treats Tyrion, or indeed anyone, else nicely, except a bit of softness towards Arya and maybe thinking Kevan's somewhat competent.
This is why I'm so hopeful for the character of Margaery. She is pretty much the only female in the entire show to seek out and encourage female camaraderie and not in a master/servent sort of way like it is with Dany. And to be honest, she seems like she would be the most competent ruler. Kind but cunning. And of course I love her Grandma.
I wonder if she will end up dead too.
If you've read the books it's not a great reason..as none of that happened.
In the books I understand that Cersei HATES the male-dominated world and hates all women who conform to it. She also hates anyone who challenges her family so she pretty much hates everyone but her kids & Jaime
Since I've added spoiler tags to a couple of posts lately, I'd like to remind people that posting about a character's future at all is a spoiler. Posting a character death is obviously a spoiler, but so is posting that they live.
It was a great addition to the show, but none of that happened in the books. Though there are other reasons I like Arya in the books, including that, by this point in the book-story, she's killed a couple more people and been a pretty solid badass about it.
I'm in the camp that the Tyrells have some stuff going on and there's a reason that the books haven't used any of them as POV characters as watching them scheme would reveal a twist and ruin a potential surprise. AFFC SpoilerFor example, I am not convinced that Loras Tyrell was actually harmed in battle as Cersei was told. I expect that, like the Queen of Thorn's involvement in Joffrey's death, the Tyrells are going to make a run at completely taking over King's Landing (not that they're not already on the way to doing so).
That was the EXACT GIF I hoped for. :love:
gene parmasan? :o
who what where??
tell me
@Shaibana: It's a mashup with dialogue from the show Arrested Development.
Anyway, if posting Arrested Westeros images is now a thing:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln...co1_r2_500.jpg
ETA:
George R.R. Martin "Game Of Thrones" Spoilers
Note: Not actually spoilers. Hodor!
HAH!! funny ´spoilers´ :P
Looking forward to Tony Stark xD
Ah just remembered the finale is tonight!
I know i'm excited and sad at the same time. It means I have to wait a whole nother year :(
Oh. Well obviously I was just testing you. Yeah. :shifty:
Also:
http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enha...70623882-5.jpg
Cover your throat Sansa!!!!!
ahh haha. I was watching the conan interviews. And GRRM was saying it was hard when actresses at the premiere party were like "don't kill us!" and he was like ":shifty: you're already dead"
cut for sizehttps://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...69559933_n.jpg
Tyrion would be a pretty good character to build a deck around, probably :monster:
DICK IN A BOX! Poor theon.
I love roose though he's so badass.
And jon! He was all shot and stuff!
and then the whole
http://i.imgur.com/9x8zU6c.jpg
the angel devil thing
Also Tywin making the king go to bed. That was funny :3
I wish there was more of a OMG moment at the end though.
Agree about the end but the build up around the end of each storyline was epic. MOTHA smurfING STANNIS!
Joffrey/Tywin/Tirion scene was the greatest exchange in the entire season imo.
The end lacked that punch but I really liked the flow of the stories in the north all crossing each other.
This show has crossed into a sort of hate-watching territory for me.
The end scene was just awful and so problematic. I know GoT has always had issues with race, but jesus christ. It was so smurfing gross.
The scene with Rob's body was unwatchable. Like, it made me loathe the show with that one scene. I know it happens in the book, so don't come at me with that.
Aside from that, I liked that so many of the other storylines have moved forward. I always like any scenes with Tyrion, and Varys and I kinda love that Jon Snow got shot up with arrows by his ex-gf. Stannis is still a douche nugget. Please please stay alive Gendry!
Overall, I think it's the worst finale yet. Totally killed the momentum built up from the previous episode.
The crowd-surfing scene with Daenarys and the slaves is so...cheesy. And awkward. I don't know. I just didn't like it.
More adorable reading by Davos :D
I was half expecting someone during the crowd surfing scene to stab Denerys but nothing seems to ever go wrong for her, except for that one time with her husband and child
Arya is coming along nicely, hopefully she doesnt die before getting at least one name off her list.
Im glad the Theon torture porn was earlier in the episode so it didnt kill my buzz mid episode like last time.
I hope Jamie doesnt shave again.
Yeah, the last scene made me cringe a lot and was weak overall. I would have been more satisfied with ending the episode on Stannis, Davos, and Melisandre.
Arya's scene was the standout for me, she is stone cold. I wish we could have seen a little more of Jaime's return to King's Landing, but I suppose that's what they do in the season finale's.
And yeah, the end was cheesy as hell.
Yeah that was a very meh note to end it on.
I was almost in tears with that they did to Rob's body. I knew it was coming but seeing it was heart breaking, especially through Arya's eyes.
YES
and I agree, I was anticipating something more dramatic for a cliff hanger but then again that just leaves room for a whole lot of epic for next year's premier.
I found a better angel devil picture :3
http://i.imgur.com/19ge2KT.gif
Also ramsey saying "my mother taught me to not throw stones at cripples. But my father taught me to aim for the head." Made me laugh. smurfing Boltons.
This episode was a bit of a let-down after the penultimate episode. Most of it was good, especially the scenes with Tywin and Stannis and Varys, though nothing spectacular. But that last scene with Dany was terrible and cheesy and an awful way to end the season. It was entirely unnecessary, too, as we already knew more people from the city would join her and did absolutely nothing to advance her story.
they definitly should have made ´the red wedding´ the season finale..
this epi was weak indeed. and the final scene with dany was just corny.. it felt so... disney :(
the scene with rob's body? it honestly didnt do me that much :o
Now i am really curious of the Greyjoy girl (sorry, forgot her name) will find her brother
I actually liked the episode as a whole. The end scene could have been done better, but I think it advanced her character just like what happens in the books.
Yeah I quite liked the episode although it really lacked a major set piece like you would expect from a finale. The ending also wasn't great. Still, Tywin/Tyrion/Joffrey and Stannis/Melisandre/Davos were all incredible, and I actually quite enjoyed Sam's scenes for once! Roose Bolton and Walder Frey is also something not seen in the books and I liked their interaction too, and the final reveal of Ramsay for who he is and why it's not just Theon being tortured for the sake of it - Ramsay and Roose as a father and son combination are truly some of the vilest characters in the books.
the end scene was dumb. everyone seems to agree on this point.
i liked the rest of the episode though. not as much action/big stuff happening as ep9, but it definitely set up a lot for next season.
by the time next season hits, i'll have finished the books though, but still. looking forward to it
That was a good episode, and I would have to agree that the ending was a bit lacking, but it is what it is. (My brother liked the ending though. That moron. :P) I do have to say that I enjoyed Arya's scene where she killed one of those guys eating food. That trick she used with the coin was great. Also did enjoyed the scene where Tywin put Joffrey to bed early. :D
That episode was pretty amazing and I don't care, I'd reach out to touch Mother as well. :shobon:
AHAHAHAHAHA JOFFREY GOT PUT INTO TIMEOUT
Best part of the episode
Hooray!
Is the prize that I get to torture and flay people? Maybe inflict a penectomy or to?
I thought is was a terribly boring episode for a season finale.
I had been waiting for that RobbWind moment to come to life ever since I read it in the books. I don't know why. I guess I really like watching terrible things like that.
I better see (WARNING MASSIVE SPOILER) this (2nd half of ASOS spoiler) next season, even if book spoiler, too? idkshe doesn't have those marks since she didn't claw her face like I sort of wish she did. And the Martells! <3333 And the ASOS/S4Purple Wedding (idk, I think that's what the fans called Joffrey's wedding).
Agree with most of the points being made - generally a good episode, lacked for that special oomph. I don't think anyone expected it to surpass episode 9 in that regard, but it seems a little too strong contrast.
I squee a little every time.
One thing I missed from the books is Davos's desperate speech to convince Stannis to go north. That packed a lot of power and I feel like it was sort of "his moment", which Melisandre sort of usurped in this episode, with a weaker end result. A bit picky, but.
Ohhh! That's an awesome piece.
I edited your post Lonely Paper Star, nothing wrong with the spoiler being there but a spoiler of THAT MAGNITUDE really deserves emphasis.
Finally watched the season 3 finale. Here are my bullet pointed list:
- In general, the episode I found was probably on par, maybe even better, than it's equivalent comparison: Valar Morghulis. While it's ending scene is perhaps rather melodramatic, it is sort of what you'd expect from a season closing. It is perhaps rather unnecessary as we pretty much knew the outcome from her scenes in The Rains of Castamere but hey, it was alright. It certainly wasn't as bad as everyone is making out I feel.
- The scene with Jaime was underplayed. No words. In fact, he hardly got much screentime at all. Brienne didn't get much and I would have loved more interaction between the two seeing how Jaime did save her from that bear pit. Their storyline pretty much ended with The Bear and the Maiden Fair.
- Bran's storyline is moving ahead with some pace now, and his scenes were good enough. He is moving further up north now, and the meeting with Sam and Gilly were quite good. Talking about Sam/Gilly, I love how he is getting more screentime now. He might be upgraded to main cast status perhaps in the fourth season. I liked his scenes though and, like Davos, he is just a simple, good character. I like how he is making Gilly happy.
- Oh Davos. I just love his character. There's nothing much to add. The lord of light really must favour him, because he has been sent to prison or death so many times. He's treading a very shaky line with Stannis to be honest. I loved his scenes with Gendry talking about Flea Bottom. I wonder what Melisandre makes of Davos?
- Arya the killer! Watch her pretend to a small orphan girl, and then go full on psycho. You could almost see the Hound looking sympathetic.
i really liked this episode. In fact if you cut out the last 5 minutes it was my favorite episode of the season.
Maester Aemon man..I'd no idea he was re-cast. Warmed me heart seeing him.
Also just want to say I loved Jon and Ygritte's scene. The actress who plays her is really awesome in my opinion, the absolute fury on her face when he rode off in ep9 and then the heartbreak when he left her again this episode, both perfect. Best/worst breakup ever.
YOU KNOW WHAT WAS SAD?
Ygritte and Jon Snow :( To make you feel better they are actually dating in the real lifes
http://i.imgur.com/Xn9GFqE.gif
Yeah that was a sad scene. I think it was done well and I'm glad Ygritte shooting him was not omitted from the show.
Like they would ever leave out someone having something bad happening to them. ;)
Good show for the most part, agree that the end was super terrible cheese. I did, however, like the zooming out to show the considerable size of her new army. Also happy to see that Sam actually had more dragonglass, because him leaving that other one behind had me raging. The war against the whitewalkers well and truly underway next season, I imagine, and I must say I'm really looking forward to it. Also delighted that both Davos and Gendry were saved.
Melisandre looking scared is a wonderful thing, and admitting Stannis will need Davos even better. What else? Jon Snow back with his bros, but I must concede I'm still wanting one thing spoiled for me, although relatively minor - if a book reader could be so kind as to tell me if we ever see Samwell's friends from the Night's Watch again (spoiler tag it, of course) that would be appreciated. I liked those two fellas.
Tyrion is amazing, Varys is amazing, that lady should've taken the gems. Speaking of her, she just annoys me now. I find her so boring and just a hinderance to the amazingly interesting relationship that is Tyrion and Sansa. I want to watch their discussions all the time because they compliment each other so fantastically. I don't care if they never fall in love or anything, but what I do care about is that his very jealous woman is always there, tagging along, making things awkward. Geez, give 'em some alone time for crying out loud.
Joffrey instantly losing any vague possibility of him someday becoming a somewhat tolerable person. What a :bou::bou::bou::bou:, and I never use that word.
EDIT: Oh, and one more thing - it was so sad watching Tyrion listen to how much a parent unconditionally loves a child after all the crap his father has put him through.
(SPOILER)Memory says that no named characters died. I know Dolorous Ed gets back alive, because some jerk keeps voting for him in the Commander re-elections.
Thanks, Kent. :up:
Robert.
(SPOILER)Craster's Keep Mutiny;
Loyalists: Byam Flint (Killed), Samwell Tarly (Survived), Eddison Tollett (Survived), Dywen (Survived), Grenn (Survived), Giant (Survived), Black Bernarr (Survived), Tim Stone (Survived), Ulmer of the Kingswood (Survived), Garth Greyfeather (Survived), Ronnel Harclay (Survived), Kedge Whiteye (Survived), Fornio (Survived), Goady (Survived), Sweet Donnel Hill (Survived), Left Hand Lew (Survived), Garth of Oldtown (Killed).
Mutineers: Dirk, Ollo Lophand, Grubbs, Garth of Greenaway, Alan of Rosby, Rolley of Sisterton (Killed), Mawney, Clubfoot Karl, Orphan Oss, Muttering Bill.
Telling you the fate of the Mutineers may spoil things if you're not a book reader.
(SPOILER)Weren't Pyp and Grenn both in the episode? Or were you talking about someone else, BoB? But yeah, there were a couple of named characters who died but nobody really important (apart from Mormont).
I'm referring to the two guys who stood up for Sam when that now-dead mutinous punk was bitching at how they should leave Sam behind and called him a fatty or whatever. I think, upon a little (careful!) research, their names are Dolorous Edd (thanks Kent) and Grenn.
So... what do I do for the next few months until the new season?
(inb4 read the books)
I might cave and read the books. I mean I may as well since the internet is terrible at hiding spoilers and I've already been spoiled out my arse for the next several seasons. :p
I do have them all, might break them out.