Prove it!!!

[The Crystal]

Dragon Mage, my intention wasn't to attack your post. I just wanted to help you by correcting a little mistake about something you said. But you saw that as an "attack", probably because of your bad day.

And it seems that like f f freak, you don't belive in what the UOG say. Well, this is your choice. BUT anytime that you(or anyone else) post something that i think is wrong, i will correct you/him/her(like i know that you will correct me too in other things that you will not agree) because i belive in the UOG, and anything that is "against" it, is wrong, because the guide is the official word of SE.
The fans don't know more than SE. But this is something that some people still don't understand. So, if i try to correct you in the future, don't be offended, because is nothing personal. I just don't like seeing people spreading misinformation, and anything contrary to what SE say, is misinformation.

[Dragon Mage]

It's all cool. It just bothered me when you simply said that I was wrong according to the guide (when I was really saying the same thing) without providing any explaination. I don't really see where you're coming from because I'm basically saying the same thing that the guide is, just differently. It really ticked me off. If what I said didn't exactly agree with the guide, you jumped on.
And it isn't that I don't believe this guide, I've just never heard of it before. Besides, I don't think anyone will ever understand this world of FF7. Not even the man who made it really understands it.

[NeoCracker]

First, its not wrong because it was translated from another language. People claiming this is the official word of Square is annoying when I have yet to find Square commenting on this translation anywhere. Never once did I say it was wrong, nor did I say you shouldn't use it. I said it is hardly the official word of Square. The REal Ultimania Guide is, without question. The online translation in another story.

Most likely its true, which bothers me as the Idea of Sephiroth being in control just makes the story rather weak to me. I know he was probably the villain, but it doesn't mean I'll take that online Guide as official by any means.

[Aerisfanatic]

Kotch, that minion of Corneo. He was a pretty bad dude. He tried to rape Cloud while he was dressed as a lady!

Topic creator, may I add Kotch to the poll? I know I could vote for other, but I really feel Kotch deserves a category of his own.

That is IF you didn't do everything right. But I'm serious. What chararacter was the main villian?

Hojo
He did seem to cause everything though, he created Sephiroth,wanted Aeris, and experimented with Jenova cells.


PS- The poll says villain so not other.

What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.

Hey, next time you have something to add to your post, use the edit button please! -kikimm

actually in the ff7 series hojo was proven to be his father and lucrecia as his mother

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

Kotch, that minion of Corneo. He was a pretty bad dude. He tried to rape Cloud while he was dressed as a lady!

Topic creator, may I add Kotch to the poll? I know I could vote for other, but I really feel Kotch deserves a category of his own.

That is IF you didn't do everything right. But I'm serious. What chararacter was the main villian?

Hojo
He did seem to cause everything though, he created Sephiroth,wanted Aeris, and experimented with Jenova cells.


PS- The poll says villain so not other.

What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.

actually in the ff7 series hojo was proven to be his father and lucrecia as his mother

yeah...but that don't cont toward creating anything...to create is to start from nothing and make something... he wasn't scientifically made...in this meaning

[Edge7]

Mukki.

[beema]

I think you mean ANTAGONIST dingus.
Cloud was clearly the protagonist. Definition: 1. the leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.
I don't see how anyone else in the game could be considered a protagonist.

As far as who the real antagonist is, it's clearly Sephiroth. Early in the game it's Shinra, but Sephiroth eclipses them pretty quickly. I guess it could be argued that Jenova is the antagonist since Sephiroth is essentially a reincarnation of her, but that's really a technicality.

If you want to get even more technical, Hojo is responsible for creating Sephiroth, and Shinra is responsible for Hojo. So Shinra is the main evil (although Jenova came long before them). But that's not what an antagonist is. Sephiroth is the main source of drama and conflict in the game. He is the one that the story follows and that it is your ultimate goal to defeat, so he is quite obviously the main villain of the game.

What the hell would the "other" option be? Cloud's subconcious? I guess you are fighting against his weak will the whole game since his stupid ass manages to hand Meteor over to Sephiroth.

[Forsaken Lover]

-The Roles of JENOVA and Sephiroth: The Puppet Master Theorem-

The long debated matter of Final Fantasy VII: The Puppet Master Theorem; was
JENOVA or Sephiroth in control? Who was the grand manipulator, the mastermind
behind it all? I will here present the truth of the matter.

Before examining this matter, it may be best to first explain what JENOVA is
and functions as: A virus. Whatever its origins, JENOVA's behaviour 2,000
years before the main events of the game was indicative of that of a virus,
the goals of a virus being to spread and to replicate. This is exactly what
JENOVA does upon its arrival on the world of Gaia. It approaches the Cetra,
tricking them with its appearance by appearing as their dead relatives, and
then it released upon them what Ifalna referred to as "the virus." She said
that this virus drove the Cetra insane and turned them into monsters.

Ifalna: "That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the
sky', as we call him, came. He first approached as a friend, deceived them and
finally...... gave them the virus. The Cetra were attacked by the virus and
went mad... transforming into monsters. Then, just as he had at the
Knowlespole. He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the
virus..."


and

Ifalna: "That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead mothers...
and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."

The actions of an instinctual virus? Not whatsoever. The actions of a malicious entity, purposefully manipulating minds of the Cetra with telepathically drawing out the memories of their loved ones and then it also showed a specific intent on destroying the Cetra. She says it specificlaly hunted her race down, indicating that for whatever reason, they were the main object of Jenova. I would think a simple monstrous virus would infect all it could.

At face value, this may sound like an attack. But think a bit further: Ifalna
is not saying that these Cetra were being killed; rather, she is saying that
they were being TRANSFORMED. JENOVA's Cells are known to cause mutations. As
Sephiroth says at the Northern Crater, "The power to change one's looks,
voice, and words is the power of Jenova." What, then, was JENOVA releasing
upon the Cetra? Its very own Cells. It was transforming them into more of
itself. JENOVA was seeking to replicate.

This ENTIRE paragraph is supposition. It is in fact faulty as it draws from the faulty comparison of what Jenova did to the Cetra and what is happening at the time of Advent Children are similar, which they are not.

We find further suggestion of this concept in the official Final Fantasy VII
novel, "On the Way to a Smile," written by Kazushige Nojima, which serves to
bridge the two-year gap between the events of Final Fantasy VII and those of
Advent Children. In this story, Denzel tells Reeve that those people INFECTED
(note the terminology) with JENOVA's Cells that were spread by the Lifestream
flowing across Midgar were discharging a black pus through the pores of their
bodies. With this in mind, recall that the malady known as "Geostigma" is
revealed in the film to be the result of the body overworking itself in an
effort to rid itself of JENOVA's Cells. When JENOVA's Cells entered people, at
first they would discharge this black pus, as this is the body's natural
reaction to an intrusion by viruses: One's natural immune system involuntarily
rushes white blood cells to the location of an infectious substance within
one's body in an attempt to contain it and then discharge it from the body.
That's exactly what was happening with those infected by JENOVA's Cells.
However, the virus was too strong to be removed as simply as random bacteria
would be.

And strangely enough, Ifalna didn’t mention any of this She mentions the Cetra going insane and turning to monsters, not spewing black pus and dying.

Also the way Geostigma came out is not the way Jenova infected the Cetra with “the virus.”

With that touched upon, I will now move on to the events of the game itself.
I would argue that the acts of murdering President Shinra, much of the Shin-Ra
personnel in the Shin-Ra headquarters, and Aerith were Sephiroth's, being
committed while he carried out the new JENOVA's will: His own will. Sephiroth
was essentially the ebmodiment of JENOVA in a native of the Planet of Gaia,
while still retaining his own individuality. JENOVA's will was never so much
that of consciously perceiving thought processes, but, rather, that of an
instinctual beast, a virus seeking to perform one function: To make more of
itself.

Except we don’t know Jenova was making more of herself. We know she was making “monsters.” And in fact, all these people died. So the replication you ASSUME Jenova is doing didn’t go anywhere.

And again, the way Ifalna describes Jenova’s determined extermination of the Cetra indicates far more than an “instinctual beast.”

Once Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream with JENOVA's head, his life changed.
The knowledge of the Lifestream would have become privy to him. Sephiroth
would have come to learn just what JENOVA was, and just who he was. Sephiroth
then simply desired to assume the role of that which he now was: A virus. He
wanted to become everything. He wanted the world to be his. He wanted
everything to be part of himself, just as he and JENOVA were part of one
another. He wanted to shape the future in his own image, living now as the
JENOVA virus with the mind and emotions he had as a consciously perceiving
human being:

I like how he inserts his own romanticized version of Sephiroth’s motivations into his essay.

Sephiroth learned all these things and was still a villain...for no reason. End of story.

As can be seen here, Sephiroth desired to become one with everything else. He
desired to make everything be a part of him. He desired to replicate.
Sephiroth's growth was essentially that of introducing conscious perception to
a viral entity that "thought" based on instinct.

Except direct canon contradicts the idea of Jenova being nothing more than an instinctual virus. Take it up with Ifalna.

Sephiroth's goal is further supported by the game's CGI film sequel, Final
Fantasy VII: Advent Children. During the film, after Sephiroth has been reborn
due to JENOVA's Cells that were in Rufus Shinra's possession merging with
Kadaj, he tells Cloud that his goal is to use Gaia itself as a vessel to sail
the cosmos until he can find another Planet, one which has not yet been
"corrupted" by the presence of Homo Sapiens. He then intends to make this
world be his new "paradise."

Good for him. Sorry this was never Jenova’s intentions.

Or can you tell me when she strived to control the Planet? She was around for quite some time back in the day and no accounts we have document her trying to assume control of the Planet.

Sephiroth's utmost enmity toward Cloud and consistent mental torture of the
protagonist displays that Sephiroth himself was certainly very much aware and
active, as JENOVA would have no cause to render such agony unto Cloud, whereas
Sephiroth, one who was filled with pride -- pride that had been hurt when
Cloud overpowered him five years earlier

Where does this illusion of Sephiroth being overly prideful come from?

Also may I remind you:

*Sephiroth: "What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings
too?"

Now, his actions and words are what is so key here. His first line is uttered
in a very grandiose-manner, yet once he hears Cloud tell him about his
feelings, he looks down in perplexity. The real Sephiroth with Sephiroth's
memories know that Cloud is very much human, that he can feel.

...

In conclusion, my determination is that there was no issue of control in the
first place, as Sephiroth WAS JENOVA, but an evolved -- or, rather, mutated --
form of an instinctual, viral creature that didn't operate on the higher level
of consciousness that Homo Sapiens -- consciously perceiving beings -- do. In
fact, Square-Enix's Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide, published in
September of 2005, confirms this, stating that Sephiroth, with his higher
level of consciousness, assumed rulership over JENOVA's Cells.

It’s funny that you should use the UOG as evidence – seing as how your entire essay contradicts it.

[Bolivar]

one of the great things about VII is all the theories and debates over them that last until the present day, unfortunately, I believe one of the writers (Kitase/Nomura/Sakaguchi/Nojima) clarified that sephiroth was controlling Jenova.

I'll still always believe that it serves as a scenario similar to FF's - it was the will of darkness that compelled Garland & the Fiends, the Devil that ended up controlling the emporer, zemus controlling golbez, the void overcoming X-Death.

My belief is although Sephiroth was acting of his own free will, with his own intentions and inclinations, it was still the overall general will of Jenova that he was carrying out. Finding a way to become ruler of the planet, as so far as to 'become one' with it. Until it dies and he/she/it/they must go to a new one in order to survive, repeating what started 2,000 years prior to the game's scenario. I believe that's the function of Jenova.

[Bart's Friend Milhouse]

This thread has old man's stink

[The Crystal]

My belief is although Sephiroth was acting of his own free will, with his own intentions and inclinations, it was still the overall general will of Jenova that he was carrying out. Finding a way to become ruler of the planet, as so far as to 'become one' with it. Until it dies and he/she/it/they must go to a new one in order to survive, repeating what started 2,000 years prior to the game's scenario. I believe that's the function of Jenova.

I agree. In FFVII and AC, Sephiroth and Jenova are basicaly the same being.

Wikipedia says that:
"Sephiroth became what some call the newest stage of evolution for Jenova, and anything "Jenova" does in the game's present day is simply Sephiroth invoking his new powers. When Sephiroth came into the picture, the minds of the two joined, and Sephiroth made himself the core of the viral entity that Jenova was, with his ambitions being fueled by its parasitic instincts and his desire to destroy all the humans he despised. Thus, his will manifested through Jenova's extensive psionic powers."

And this is proved by the UOG:

Ultimania Omega Guide:
"The Sephiroth clones seen in various locations continue gathering for the Reunion. Seemingly, the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it consuming Sephiroth's spirit; in actuality, Sephiroth is controlling Jenova."

Sephiroth and Jenova merged together, forming a "new" being. This is why he wanted to become one with the planet and travel the universe(searching for other planets to infect/destroy, like a parisite), because this was Jenova's instinctual nature. But in the same time, he wanted revenge against Cloud, because of his human emotions.

In FFVII and AC, Sephiroth and Jenova are the same.