This game is awful

[Wolf Kanno]

However we "true' rpg gamers know better.

I find your generalizations to be completely out of line. How dare you define all "true" rpg gamers to be people who only think like you do! I was ready to counter all you points but after reading this, I'm not even going to bother.

I doubt anything I say is going to affect you since obviously I think differently about what makes an RPG and you'll just shrug me off as one of the "casual gamers" in this genre. Gameplay is important and as whole RPG's have lousy soundtracks, only a few actually have exceptional soundtracks just like any other genre of gaming. So it's not a "defining feature" for a game.

I'm going to stop here cause I'm doing my best to be civil. But if you don't like the game that is fine. We all have our own opinions. I just really don't agree with yours, so I'll leave it at that.

[Nominus Experse]

First of all, realize I enjoyed FFXII, but I am not one to be given to fanaticism about it. I say this because I feel I am being placed in such a category (Renmiri).

As for that of me being arrogant: I was being curt and blunt, not arrogant. But meh, I was not on the receiving end, so whatever...


Realize in several points I attempted to counter, I meant to play devil's advocate due to the fact that Shadow8017 had yet to really lay out what exactly his/her points were.

Some points I agree on:
The music
The story felt almost... "detached". And the characters were not given enough development, even though there were ample times for them to expand. They were dynamic, yes, but not enough. Perhaps I am spoiled by previous FF's or other RPGs, but I expected and wanted more.
The fact that Vaan really could have been thrown aside in some ways
That gambits will create monotony (as compared to just mashing X or A )

And yeah, the main focus of most - if not all RPGs - is the story. But no one cares for a story if it's weighed down by monotonous game play or arbitrary quirks.

There are valid arguments for both sides, and I believe Shadow8017 does bring them up.



Really, when it comes down to it, I wouldn't call this game awful, nor would I be so consumed by fanboyism to call it wonderful. It breaks some rules, and adds a level of innovation in several areas (some of which are arguably worse or better, varying largely more on personal taste than anything else). It falls short in some areas, of course, but I think it makes up for it in other areas.

It's different than most FF's, particularly FFVII, FFVIII, and FFIX.

It is only natural that some will enjoy it, and others will not. As I said before, there are valid points to made for both sides.


I played it through, and at its end, I didn't feel like I had wasted my time. Was it memorable? Some parts, but it was no FFVI or FFVII.




I will say, however, that it feels as though this game garners far too much praise.



EDIT: God damn it, Wolf Kanno. Just smurfing post it. I want an argument going on in here - one that is heated and emotionally driven! I can't play devil's advocate forever as I am too detached from either side to really care.

[LunarWeaver]

I quite enjoyed the gameplay, and the plot was enough to make see through it to the end. As a game, it's rather great in that it gives you plenty of hours of activity for your money.

I did think the story was weaker than recent entries, but it is not horrible by any means. It still pulls off a story better than most RPGs could ever dream of, especially when 99% of all J-RPGs are content with telling the same exact tale in the same exact manner with no imagination at all. The world of Ivalice had a lot of flair to it at least, and while the cutscenes were too far between for my tastes, everytime one happened I was left blown away and reminded all over again why I couldn't wait to see the next.

But it's not all about cutscenes, and you really should be asking yourself "will the battle system be fun." I'm actually quite sad that you think of an RPG as nothing but a story with really tedious gameplay in between. If you look at that way, then an RPG is nothing but a movie with 30 hours of commercial breaks.

Musically, it's not the best thing the series or Sakimoto ever made, but the music isn't bad either. Fitting music that blends into the background is certainly better than grating music that calls for a mute button.

The characters in the game... I would say they get development, but it's a different kind from what they've done in most of the installments. These characters have more static character development rather than a dynamic style of development.

In other words, they are the same people at the end as in the beginning because they have already become the people they will be forever. Balthier, Fran, Basch...They all have quite deep histories, but the histories have already happened and produced the personalites you already know.

In a way, that gives me the feeling that I'm missing a bit. It's sort of like coming into Squall's tale when he and Rinoa are already a couple, he's less of an asshole to everybody, and you only get to hear about his "whatever..." days in a passing mention. But on the other hand, this does make them feel more like real people. Most real people do not change entirely over the course of a handful of events, even ones that are sometimes extreme. When you're an adult, you're usually pretty set with the dominant aspects of your personality, and most of the characters are adults. Not true for everybody, of course, but for most. I think that's why people feel as if they didn't have "development," but at the same time feel like they were closer to real people then slapped-on personalities.

I'm fine with this approach for the most part, but I only wish they had interacted with each other more. X did a good job of making the party stop and speak with another so you really felt they were all Guardians towards the same goal. In XII, it really just feels like people who are forced together for one reason or another and can't wait to get back to their usual business again.

But the truth is that XII is an enormous gameworld. It's attention to detail and places to explore are simply huge. The game was already in development forever, and when people demand cutscenes from Square of the highest degree, only so much time and money and such is going to be put into it. At times, I do feel like they never got to tell the full story they wanted, but ah well... We have what we have now.

Besides, if there were lots of cutscenes we'd only get people whining it's like a movie. Players say they want an intricate plot with wonderful character development for each member of the party, but then turn around and say there's too many cutscenes and they don't want to watch them. You can't have both. I'm plenty patient, after all, the gaming parts will remain whether I watch the cutscene or not, so I tend to enjoy large cutscenes that go on forever. But XII is just a different kind of game. If you want that, go for Xenosaga or something.

Blaaarg. Okay, I'm done now. I have criticisms of the game, most of which I have posted before, but don't let that throw you off into thinking I don't like it or appreciate it. I have criticisms for the games I consider my favorites...Nothing is perfect, after all. But just because I can point out the faults doesn't really mean anything because I'm willing to overlook them (I can never say this in a way that makes sense to people ). Upon subsequent playthroughs, I feel the game will be enjoyed more because everybody will have just calmed down and know what to expect. The hard work that went into it is still pretty clear to me, and I couldn't really ask or expect anything more from a game then what this provides.

Edit: It's like 3:20 in the morning and I read most posts entirely but scanned some...hopefully everything I just said isn't some huge rehash of what somebody else already said which would make me a smelly man wearing loserpants.

[Holy Lancer]

seriously have any of you posting here ever played Final Fantasy VI-VII and the subsequent rpgs up till X? Do you really think this game holds the same standard of quality in terms of storyline, original score, and character development?

I'm not trying to troll or anything but I'm honestly just looking for clarification as to how one can overlook this game's many many flaws. This game is to Final Fantasy what Phantom Menace was to Star Wars. Pretentious, shallow, tries to impress you with a whole -ton of CGI sequences, but in the end only succeeds in ruining a once respected series.

I'll expound on my thoughts later as to how exactly this game fails utterly, I've got school for now =p I'm really interested in hearing your opinions though.

After playing all the Final Fantasy games I agree with you about the story, character development and original score being bad. I personally think the story is terrible, especially compared to some of the great previous storylines (I liked X). The characters aren't great either, even though I liked Balthier and Fran. But you also have to take into consideration that Nobuo Uematsu did not do the original score this time. I own most of the previous Final Fantasy Soundtracks and this one doesn't even compare,even though I like Ozmone Plains and the new Battle on the Big Bridge song. But those songs don't compare to some of my favorite songs like Terra in Black (FFVI), the original Battle on the Big Bridge (FFV), Freya's Theme (FFIX), Out of the Frying Pan (FFX), Matoya's Cave (FFI), Movement in Green (FFX), Cid's Theme (FFIX), and Fleeting Dream (FFX). I'll stop there because my list could go on forever because Uematsu was so great.

Well, ANYWAYS, the storyline may be crap, the music might blow, and the characters might be lame, but this is still a great game to me. There are some things in this game that make it a great game. One of them is the customization, just like one of my other favorite games, Final Fantasy V, this game lets you make your party into whatever kind of class you want. You can also choose your own main party and give espers (summons) to whichever characters you like.

But the one thing that truly makes this game great is all of the hunts. I absolutely love doing the hunts. I love how you can just go along in the main storyline and then once you get to one of those great orange save crystals you can say bye bye for a while and go hunt all the marks you want until your eyeballs pop out and then you return to the main storyline and kick @$$ . This game is very fun, I like the new battle system and being master hunter.

P.S. I miss Nobuo Uematsu
(SPOILER)The Black Mages can't make any new songs now lol they'll have to make old ones.

[Renmiri]

You know what I LOVED about XII ?

Havint to beat the Espers / Summons to achieve them. Felt a lot more rewarding than those cloister of trials at FFX.

It gave me a sense of achievement that I kicked Zalera's butt, every time he pwned a fiend. Like "weak fiends die, but I won"

[Ouch!]

Nominus, your response reeks of arrogance.

I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously anymore after you said that. After that, the responses started getting so long that I couldn't bring myself to read any further anyway.

People have plenty of complaints about Final Fantasy XII, but, then again, there are complaints about every game in the series especially the hyped ones. It's disappointing that few people recognize middle ground in these arguments. Arguments usually turn into an all-or-nothing debate. Every game has its faults. I still replay my least favorite Final Fantasy from time-to-time even though I think the plot is one of the worst I've ever seen.

I could launch into a condescening rant refuting reasons why FFXII sucks, but I'll simply throw out some points. They've probably already been covered in depth by other people anyway.
1. The plot was mildly disappointing, but only because I was expecting something more like Final Fantasy Tactics.
2. Exploration was enough of a plus that I never felt any effects of poor pacing. If anything, I felt absolutely in control of the game's pacing.
3. Having played Final Fantasy XI, I had a good idea what to expect of FFXII's battle system. I was not disappointed.
4. I actually enjoyed the soundtrack. I'll concede the point that there aren't any particularly stunning pieces, but there weren't any that wanted to make me gag.

To be fair, here are some things that bugged me about Final Fantasy XII.
1. Little strategy is involved when selecting party members. I'll admit it, I miss the set job system, and try as I might to emulate it in FFXII, I found it to be more trouble than its worth to not give characters a little bit of everything.
2. The main villain was one of the least interesting characters in the game.
3. The final boss fight was a let-down. When I saw the his second form, I felt seriously ripped off. The final form was alright, but nothing fantastic.
4. I wanted to see more involvement of the judges, but that probably goes hand-in-hand with wanting another story of war and politics like FFT.

[Shadow8017]

Nominus, your response reeks of arrogance.

After that, the responses started getting so long that I couldn't bring myself to read any further anyway.

and I stopped reading after you said that.

[N8V_Tidus25]

Whatever ya'll I thought this game was amazing and I enjoyed the hell out of it.

[Roto13]

I like XII for the same reason I like X-2. It has really great gameplay. I read books and watch movies for stories. I play games for gameplay.

[Renmiri]

I like XII for the same reason I like X-2. It has really great gameplay.

Yes, same here. But XII is better than X-2 because it's not too girly and the music isn't too annoying (X-2 soundtrack made e want to smash the PS2 in the composers' head). And it does have fun missions, none of those find clothes or back massage nonsense!

and I stopped reading after you said that.

Give it a chance, gameplay is fun and the world of FFXII is so well thought out and the graphics are so great that you will like it eventually. I had each and every problem with it that you mentioned, and still maaged to have hours of fun with it.

[Holy Lancer]

You know what I LOVED about XII ?

Havint to beat the Espers / Summons to achieve them. Felt a lot more rewarding than those cloister of trials at FFX.

It gave me a sense of achievement that I kicked Zalera's butt, every time he pwned a fiend. Like "weak fiends die, but I won"

Yeah but they are too easy to beat. I owned all the ones I faced so far and I'm about to go fight Chaos.

[rubah]

Zeromus isn't that easy when you come upon him suddenly with no prior warning or preparation!

[Nominus Experse]

What about the implementation of FF-2 antics? Such as the fact that there are uber-powerful enemies right next to weak or normal enemies in several areas.

Do you think it was wise or interesting that they decided to do this?

[Roto13]

They did that in FF II. It was to keep you from wandering somewhere you weren't supposed to be.

[Holy Lancer]

Zeromus isn't that easy when you come upon him suddenly with no prior warning or preparation!

I owned Zeromus so bad. I didn't even need to prepare.